Talks on Bhagwad Gita

[gita-talk] Re: Swayam and Aham - Need Guidance

2012-02-01T13:34:00.000-08:00

Respected Sadhaks

RAM RAM JI

I have been doing efforts to study Swamiji's Sadhan aur Sadhya.

In the article on Svayam and Aham, Swamiji has referred to two verses from Gitaji -

NAIV KINCHIT KROMITI YUKTAH MANYET TATVA VIT..... and ........AHANKAR VIMYDHAATMA KARTA AHAMITI MANYATE

in both the verses it is the "acceptance" only of the sadhak that makes him a Tatvavid or a Vimoodhatma.

I now request the divine sadhaks to please reflect on the point and guide me the steps so that I could 'learn the path' of accepting that there is no i and whatever is being done through me by the nature is not done by me....!

Regards

JAI SHRI RAM

Man mohan Batra

-------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please read earlier threads on similar topic -

Confusion about Doer / Non-doership of Atma and Paramatma and Creation
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/4450

How to perform actions without sense of doership?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3990

Your Views on Doership and How Not to be Trapped in Bondage of Doership
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3557

The Senses are the Doers - Please Express Your Insights based on Gita
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3438

Then who is the doer? Please help clarify -
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3398

Peace and it's Attainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification ?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2918

QS: Gita 13:31 Self (Atma) is neither doer, nor experiencer.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/63

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

When doership is in Prakruti (modes of nature), and not in Us (Self), what more is needed? Why inviting something that isn't there, by acknowledging it and later trying to get rid of it, does it make any sense? Gita 13/31 is perfectly clear. Simply speaking - DO NOT ACCEPT doership in you. Do not grab hold of something that is not there in you in the first place. There is nothing more to it.
Meera Das, Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
TATVAM is that which non destructive, boundless, Aprameyam Etc. While you are awake, your sense organs like touch, eyes, mouth etc does their job. Then if you consider mentally that these sense organs performing acts is yours, it is ignorance (Moodham). The results of actions failure/success results in Raga Duvesam (Likes and dislikes) since you consider the cause of actions are you. Now, you are in deep sleep- but still are organs are NOT dead. If they are to be dead, means Pranan left.Then you are Shavam as Shivam left the body. Now this Pranan while alive was there and while in deep sleep was there. Then WHO was controlling all these within the body or outside? THAT IS TATVAM.
B.S

------------------------------------------

aham is ego --edge god out Â so all the religions and spiritual people emphasize on shunning the EGO Â but how it is the most difficult sentiment to be controlled and most of the negative emotions arise from this or this is root of much of negativity --first step towards spirituality is to curb this .my humble submission .jai shree krishnaÂ

Chaman Nigam

-----------------------------------------

LOVE EVERYTHING U DO

"Mohan K Muju"

-------------------------------------------

Hari Om

I always find Qs of Batraji as very relevant and focussed.

There are many methods of becoming 'Nirahankaar/ Nirmam' ( no me and no mine state- no doership and no I state) ! 'Acceptance' is key in all methods. (I will revert in next posting on 'Acceptance' ) !

Before that, few things to state about other statements in your brief and focussed Q. You have used 2 terms viz 'tattwavit' and 'vimudhatma' !

Because of union of sentient (Chetan/Sat/ Self ) and inert (Jad/ Asat/ Other) ..'ME' or 'I' arises.

Now this 'I' is mixture of sentient as well as inert. Hence 'I' can be used for sentient (Svaroop) as well as inert (Aham- mixture of sentient and inert). Now take the statement - 'I am doer' . In this statement , the eye is towards inert (Aham/your unnatural assumed form/jad ) . But in the statement: "I am not doer' , the eye is towards sentient (svaroop/ your natural actual form/chetan ). Now if your eye is towards inert, in other words, if you are "accepting" your svaroop (form) to be AHAM (the mixture of sentient and inert- one who accepts I am of the world, world is mine or one who 'accepts' - I am body ) ...you are "VIMUDHATMA" ! But if your eye is towards sentient (chetan/ aham-less form / svaroop- 'Acceptance' - I am not of this world, this world is not mine/ I am God's, only God is mine, nothing else is mine) ...You are 'TATTWAVIT' !!!

Hence it is a matter of just changing your glance (your drishti) , your focus ...sounds too simple? But that is what and how it is. Realisation is the most simple thing. This is confirmed by Ramcharitmanas:

SANKAR SAHAJ SVAROOP SAMHAARA !
LAAGI SAMADHI AKHAND APAARA !!

Lord Shiva simply threw a cursory glance at His Svaroop (gathered) and instantly got immersed in His natural absorption state (Samadhi here is 'sahaj' - natural. There is no 'getting up' - vyutthaan) !

Oh..there are many methods explained by Param Shraddhey Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for benefit of humanity at large. Next is: Move from 'doing' (karana) to 'happening' (hona) and then from 'happening' to 'IS' (Hai) ! The same two things so beautifully picked by you viz, NAIV KINCHIT KAROMITI (Tattwavit)- "I am not doer" and KARTAHAMITI MANYATE (Vimudhatma)-- "I am doer" are there too the basis and of course 'acceptance' is soul.

To be contd..!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------
Start from right now NOT to accept yourself the DOER of anything [action or thought or whatever] and see tattva has already been in your experience without any efforts as said by Swamijee [kuchh karanese sansaarkee praapti hotee hai aur kuchh na karanese paramaatmaakee praapti hotee hai. By doing something, you attain the world, and by not doing anything (not accepting doership) you attain Paramatma. see in maanavamaatreake kalyaanakew liye page 113].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

--------------------------------------------------

Ignorance in ownership: Ahankaara vimooDhaatmaa aham kartaa iti manyate

IDENTIFICATION is the key for all activities in this world. One can interact with the world ONLY when the objects of interest are identified to start with. Also, one need to identify oneself before forging ahead in interacting with the others identified. Thus, an identity is essential for every participant in any activity to actualize the very activity in place. The subjective identity embedded in each participant thrives hard to safe-guard and promote the same perpetually.

The identity for a subject often grows out of proportion in the subject's perception as if the rest are under its command. The over-blown subjective identity often takes over the activity in its belief and assumes an ownership within on the very activity. Thus a sense of doership is generated within the subject. As this sense of ownership grows in one's perception, it is percolated into one's beliefs within which in turn is projected into one's action instinctively!!! The unilaterally projected authority or ownership projected on the world is often interpreted as Ahamkaara or ego.

This unilateral authoritarianism is so deluding that the fellow within who is freely projecting oneself as such remains absolutely clueless. That is the power of satisfaction generated by the notions "my work", "my knowledge" and "my joy". The only way the "I" can ever experience satisfaction in its existential domain is in conjunction with "MINE"! The only thing the deluded "I" cannot fathom is that the mechanism for dissatisfaction is also the same!!

Interestingly, each participant in the activity would, most probably, have nurtured very similar egotic ownership on the same activity generating a conflict of interest amongst themselves! Each ego remains alien to the co-participants since such an authority never considered a consensus from others. The violation of individual sovereignty triggers a chain of emotional reactions amongst the participants. This conflict may remain dormant and left unnoticed ... or, it can grow into gruesome wars between the parties involved. But, the fact remains simple ... ALL MISERIES - SMALL OR BIG - ARE ALWAYS ROOTED IN SUCH CONFLICTS! AND, SUCH CONFLICTS ARE INEVITABLE AS FAR AS IDENTITIES ARE PURSUED!!

The next verse gains importance ONLY IF any participant would like to eliminate such miseries. Of course, all the beings would like to remove the miseries altogether. But, almost always, everyone would jump to conclude that the root cause for their own miseries is "others being not reasonable"! What most would miss it altogether is that (1) Root cause for all miseries really is rooted within rather than in others! (2) It is impossible to address any possible causes in others!! and, (3) Correction in others does not help one unless correction is adapted within!!! Clarity in understanding one's ignorance and close appreciation of one's aspirations is fundamental to raise the next verse. Rather, such clarity and appreciation would automatically lead one into the realms of the next verse.

Till then, one remains captive within one or the other identity which forces one to take ownership voluntarily or involuntarily. Ego remains a natural instinct to an individual as far as the individual thrives to sustain its individuality VimooDhataa is that instinct ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

(to be contd.)

Active Awareness: Naiva kinchit karomi iti yuktah tattvavit manyet

Only a person of subtle and truthful appreciation of reality can truly realize that one is never a doer ever. THE TRUTH is always in the very activity wherein the ownership is being collected. One need not turn to any other activity. In fact, turning to any other activity may induce additional ignorance as one's ignorance in prior activities gets ignored and will blissfully settle into the sediments of one's subconscious. The paradigm shift required is never in the activity. All activities being part of the Cosmic Action remain as pure and truthful as ever - Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi! Paradigm shift that is really needed is in the perceiver. Offset the perceiver within to a witness position to understand the very activity in an objective sense. Objective clarity is the only antidote to the subjective ignorance.

There three gates through which we collect ownership and project ego - action (Jaagrata), thought (Swapna) and experience (Sushupti). Therefore, we ought to invoke the corresponding gate keepers (Vishwa, Taijasa and Praagnya) there to stop any potential corruption in current activities (Yagnya) and purge all collected garbage through the same gates (Daana). The corresponding paths of cleansing are popularly identified as Karma Yoga, Gnyaana Yoga and Bhakti Yoga.

The three dominions of action, thought and experience are inter-linked intricately. Though one could tend to believe in one of the three based on one's predisposition in life, one has to keep in mind that one can never empty one dominion if the other two are open to collect garbage. The garbage collected in the other two automatically spreads into the dominion of practice as such. THE ONLY WAY TO CLEANSE is to cleanse all the three simultaneously - act right, understand right and experience right. Perfection in harmony amongst the three is essential to keep balance amongst the three as well as to positively quarantine them off the garbage. TRUE GNYAANA implies truthful action (Karma Yoga) and experience (Bhakti Yoga). So are TRUE BBHAKTI and TRUE YOGA. In their perfection they are synonymous. In a way, all the three jump into action naturally even though one tends in one direction AS FAR AS THE SEEKER IS TRUTHFUL. But active appreciation of all the three is fool-proof as it does not allow any room for ignorance anywhere.

Again, the execution is bimodal with one's active attentiveness at all the three gates. Divine invocation at the gates helps as it makes the gate spiritually permeable - only objective appreciation (knowledge in other words) is let in; and only subjective beliefs (ignorance in other words) are let out. You can vest yourselves to become active motors to catalyze the process of purging ignorance (Mano Naasha) and objective awareness (Aatma Bodha).

A seeker has to truthfully empower the spiritual trinity of Yoga, Gnyaana and Bhakti over the existential triad of Kartrittva, Gnyaatrittva and Bhoktrittva to enhance self awareness (Aatma Bodha) and ego reduction (Mano Naasha) continuously toward their respective asymptotic boundaries of Infinity (PoorNa) and Zero (Shoonya).

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

PS: Following Chakra depicts the discussions above. It may be useful for meditation from this perspective.
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[gita-talk] Re: Gita's View on Idol Worship, Is Idol Worship against Vedas and Not Recommended?

2012-01-31T19:32:00.000-08:00

Sir,

I will be grateful if you can give views of Gita on Idol worship. Many claim that Idol worship is against the Vedas and it is not recommended.

Regards,

Satish Oberoi

----------------------------------------

Hari Om

Concluding from my side, the Sanatan Dharma concept of God is not just of an omnipotent, omniscient, heavenly being rather that of an intimate and familiar even friendly and companionable personage; not merely a father figure, but a friend and even a BELOVED.

As regards, Brother Mike's observation that :
May they learn through Self-Realization to worship the
Eternal Essence of Brahman (God Almighty) within their own beings than
the lifeless idols

The answer is;

Worshiping the manifest Godhead (Sagun Brahma) is given preference over worshiping the unmanifest godhead (Nirgun Brahma) because for an embodied being the worship of the unmanifest or formless is explained as being both difficult and troubling. Thhe tenor of tolerance for all forms of worship is in clear evidence. However, the worship of divinity with form in the shape of Krishna or the numerous gods of the Hindu pantheon have CLEAR SANCTION without denying worship of the formless as equally legitimate if more difficult. ( BG 12:2/12:4/12:5)

As simple as that !!

A tolerant and inclusive approach towards diverse paths of worship is a recurring feature of the Gita. GOD APPEARS TO THE WORSHIPPER IN THE FORM HE CONCEIVES. Whatever the form of worship God acknowledges the prayer ( BG 4:11/7:21/7:22)

Externally divinity is ubiquitous, in every atom of creation and internally it is situated within as the indweller, the ATMA. (BG 13:27/18:20to 22/7:19/ 5:7/13:13-14).

Once this is the fact, how can there be an objection to Idol Worship?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
-----------------------------------------
Vedic culture Idol Worshiping Influence from West

I understand Mike's reservations on Idol Worshipping knowing his background rooted in a Western thought process.

Let me emphasize again any idolized notion is an idol no matter whether it is made of clay or stone or ideas! Whether a name such as Shiva or VishNu or Allah or God whether a symbol such as Om or moon-and-star or a cross or any natural form or any human made form as far as the understanding within remains notional IT IS IDOL WORSHIPPING ONLY it is the PAGANISM irrespective of whoever does it in however form. Though the semetic religions conveniently coined this word to play the rest down, they remain PAGANISM as well till one understands the essence of life in its innate core.

Anything that has a tentative appreciation remains mere clay, stone, name and thought. ANYTHING THAT IS APPRECIATED WITH ABSOLUTE CONVICTION IS THE GOD AS SUCH.

Vedas do not refer to any temples. There is no archiological evidence for widespread reference to temple culture in Indian sub-continent till the westerners such as Greeks started influencing the culture. The appreciation of God was absolutely rooted in a firm acceptance that "Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahmaa" and hence always invoked through Yagnya (Existential Change which is catalyzed in a fire for one's witness). Of course, same philosophy continued even with Murti Poojaa. Arjuna could invoke The Vaasudeva (THE LORD OF ALL) in a Vaasudeva (son of Vasudeva). A Raama could invoke Lord Shiva in sand Lord Raama is invoked by mere a chant EVERYTHING is invoked in NOTHING by a VasishTha IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT IS THE MEDIUM ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT IS INVOKED!!!

Typical Murti Pooja prefers any natural element such as clay or stone or a tree or any other simple and easily accessible thing to start with. Then the seeker vests one's very vitality in the Murti - it is called PraaNa PratishThaapanaa. Then the seeker is enabled to (1) visualize the cosmic realities through a simple natural object that is in front on one hand; and (2) appreciate what oneself IS with a pure witness perspective on the other hand. PraaNa PratishThaapanaa is an essential understanding here - an innate appreciation of THE LIFE everywhere, with no exceptions! Even today, the best Murti Poojaa that is recommended is this rather than going to a temple!! One's very body is the best temple of all enquiry into The Self within is the best worship of all

The temple culture started as a social element as it serves an excellent tool for building societies, as it happened in the west. It caught up with the east as well due its social benefits. Also, the kings and emperors loved the idea as it promotes the power centers to their own benefit. That is religion - a power mongers' ideology so many wars have been waged in its name leading to unthinkable human carnage. Even the recent world wars and gulf wars have their strong roots in such religious beliefs. To me THAT IS PAGANISM which means God is never understood and has been used as a tool for convenience! It includes all religions as far as the attitude behind remains so!! Any such worship or prayer remains idle and limited to an idol!!!

Whether Vedic or Jain or Buddhist or Judaic or Christian or any other form of belief a superstitious or ego-promotional acceptance is always a mere idol worshiping, an ignorant act that is rooted in ignorance (Tamas) and promotes the same blindening ignorance (Andham Tamas) further in its seeker!

On the other hand revelation is always revelation being truthful and truth-leading irrespective of how it is initiated after-all, one could start ONLY with a notion or an image therefore, ONLY IDOL WORSHIP can be a starting point to any as far as one is firmly committed to THE TRUTH, one will verily lead oneself to THE ONE SELF irrespective of the path of initiation

Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa | Vedaah sarvaangaani | Satyamaayatanam ||

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

---------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Re original question: 'Many claim that Idol worship is against the Vedas
and it is not recommended'. Well the Vedas were silent on the subject as
it was not practised in Vedic time, but came in at the end of that
period. According to 'HIDUWEBSITE', it was when other tribes were
incorporated into Aryan society that murti worship came into vogue. By
the way this site is pro idol worship, and is honest in their appraisal.
In that site they say that the abstract concept of God is suited to the
intellectual, I am unable to to paste this as this site can not be copied.
Re '
"In other words, to experience "God is everywhere," worship of cow are
an immense aid. This is because the worshipper, has begun to believe
that "God is everywhere".

How can you believe in Vasudev Sarvam and not believe in idol worship or
cow worship, this phenomena therefore is strange and incomprehensible to
us !!! Please enlighten us and oblige ! This is what remains to be
learnt My Dear Humbly Saadhak !!' : Does one worship cow/idol,
because one sees God in all, or does one worship cow/idols to lift one
into the divine realm, you have no choice but to say both, or contactict
your quotes. My question is, in a state of seeing God in all, why bother
with idols, you might just as well worship a pile of bricks, why clay in
a shape of any deity, all deities are a product of the mind, there is
only one truth.

Re 'So long as you agree, Mike, that - "The pristine and flawless Vedic
scriptures did not contradict at all." - matter ends. ' . Have I ever
said otherwise, also may I add it most definitely did not contradict re
idols, as as far as I can asertain they were mute on the subject.

Re As far as term 'idol' (murti) is concerned let me state Gita calls
every Jeeva/body to be 'murti' only (14:4) Swamiji also says all born of
nature, nothing about worshipping them, and thus to loose affinity to
with Prakrti breaks the cycle of birth and death. So I say careful of
what you worship, also remember the original question.

Om ... Shanti....

Mike.

------------------------------------------------

According to me Vyasji's interpretation needs elaboration and clarity

See for example
he says a jeewa is murti - this is incorrect and inappropriate
as jeeva is our self or jeevatma, where as atmic part is the gods energy that sustains the jeewa which is conscious and sat but does not have anand bliss in it, there fore jeewa searches for this while god is energy in the form of sat chit and anand, the body is the murti and that although prevaded by energy is not conscious and neither has anand although it does have god's shakti in it but never an object to worship (Ken and Kath and Swetas upanishad) as it is said in all scriptures but little do the majority know about the real essence and this is the problem we have with bharam viswaas and it is cause of many a frustration in our Indian contient; and object of art is not an object of worship it is art and made by us who are incomplete at all times of our lifes unless we have achieved moksha, which can also be within a living body (Kath Upanishad)

kindest regards
Pandit Tularam
-----------------------------------------------

Vedas' are considered the most sacred amongst all the Hindu scriptures. There are 4 main vedas. Rig Ved,Yajur Ved ,Sam Ved and Athar Ved.
Yajur Ved:- Consider the following verses from the Yajur Ved:
" Na tasya pratima asti (" There is no image of Him") [Yajurved 32:3]
" There is no image of Himwhose glory verily is great.He sustains within Himself all luminous objects like sun etc.May He not harm me, this is my prayer.As He in unborn.He deserves our worship [The Yajurved by Devi Chand M.A.pg 377]
ii) " He is bodyless and pure." Is mentioned in Yujurved 40:8 [Yajurveda samhita by Ralph I.H.Griffith pg 538]
2.Atharva ved . Consider the foowing verses fro Atharva ved:-
i) " Deev maha osi"
God is verily great" [Atharvaveda 20 58:3]
3. Rig Ved i) th oldest of all the vedas is Rig veda. It is also the one considered most sacred by Hindus.The Rig Ved states that " Sages(learned Priest) call one God by many names" [ Rigveda 1:164:46]
Brahma Sutra of Hindu Vedanta is:- " Ekam Brahm,dvitiya naste neh na naste kinchan"
"There is only one Gog,not the second;not at all ,not at all.not in the least bit".

Thus only a dispassionate study of the Hindu scritures can help one understand the concept of God in Hinduism

Arpitha J
----------------------------------------------------------

Namaskar.

According to me, the majority of Hindus are not different than the majority of Muslims. They follow their parent's religion blindly. The majority of Muslims worship Muhammad beside Allah. The majority of Hindus worship Rama beside Ishwar.

There are some movement in the Hindu religion. For example Brahmo Movement rejects idolatry, statue and symbolism.

" They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakrti -- the material cause of the world -- in place of the All-pervading God, but those who worship visible things born of the prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time" [Yajur Veda 40:9.]

" I am God Almighty, I am the Light of the world like the sun. Neither defeat, nor death, can ever approach me. I am the controller of the universe, know me alone as the Creator of all. Strive ye diligently for the acquisition of power and wealth such ( as true knowledge). Ask ye of me. May ye never lose my friendship. I give true knowledge, which is real wealth, unto men who are truthful. I am the revealer of Vedas which declare my true nature. It is through the Vedas that I advance the knowledge of all. I am the prompter of the good and true. I reward those who devote themselves to the good of humanity. I am the cause, I am the support of all that exists in this universe. May ye never turn away from me. May ye never accept another God in my place, nor worship him." [RIG VEDA, 10:48, 5.]

[37:123] Elias was one of the messengers.
[37:124] He said to his people, "Would you not work righteousness?
[37:125] "Do you worship a statue, instead of the Supreme Creator?
[37:126] "GOD; your Lord, and the Lord of your forefathers!"
[37:127] They disbelieved him. Consequently, they had to be called to account.
[37:128] Only GOD's servants who are absolutely devoted to Him alone (are saved).

Thankyou and may God guide me,

Muhammed Irtaza

-------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

So long as you agree, Mike, that - "The pristine and flawless Vedic scriptures did not contradict at all." - matter ends.

Rest all, is regarding practice of it by different Jeevas in different manner. Some may be perfect, some faulty. Not every idol worship gets you 'the real thing' ! But some get you definitely.. Say of Sun, Siva, Durga, Ganesha and Vishnu. There may be faulty or blind practices prevalent now or in past, but that does not vitiate the principle and sanctity. Certainly, through idol worship, many have got the 'real thing'. Certainly Gita recognises that. Certainly there are no contradictions among Scriptures.

We all have stated time and again that you do not worship 'idol made of clay/stone etc' . We worship the God believed to be existing therein. Same thing Swamiji has also categorically stated. That addresses a majority of your latest posting.

As regards your views that rather than offering flowers etc to lifeless idol , one should offer to living beings..please note what Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has stated:

Worship of God through the medium of a "murti" is a matter of faith rather than of reasoning. The glory of God is revealed to those who have faith in Him. The worship and adoration done by these devotees is accepted and partaken by God. Just like God ate the "Kitchadi" (cooked rice and lentil) prepared by Karma bai; God ate the tikkad (flat bread cake) from devotee Dhannaa; God drank the milk prepared by Meera bai etc. It means God manifest Himself in an idol, in front of a devotee who worships Him with faith and devotion.

As regards your last para as to whether idols of Siva or Durga or Vishnu are made of clay or they are spirits...well it depends upon how you see that. If you believe they are made of clay, then they are made of clay. But if you believe your Beloved resides there, then He resides there.

Ultimately it is your 'sentiment' ! As far as term 'idol' (murti) is concerned let me state Gita calls every Jeeva/body to be 'murti' only (14:4) ! We all are 'murtis' only (In India you will find names of persons like Ramamurti, Krishnamurti, Shivamurti... As commonly as you find MiKes, Smiths, Johna...Ha) ! If you worship your parents, Saints, etc seeing God in them, you are worshiping God. What is devoid of God?

Where Gita is silent on 'murti' ? Refer an earlier posting by our Neetishji Dubey...he has given Gita verses referring 'murti' ! Paramatma is situate as 'avyakta murti' (unmanifest idol) in everything.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
--------------------------------------------

why does the question arise that idol worship is against VEDAS ,so far as i know all the religions in some form or other want to have some picture or idol or even ideal whom they surrender physically mentally and emotionally .kabir has said ''pahan pooje hai mile to main poojoon pahad ''so highly enlightened as Kabir -people can concentrate but not ordinary personsand murtipooja is for common people ,family people and regulated life style ,religious rituals [karmkand ]etc as VIVEKANAND Ji has said hindu religion is quite scientific in the sense that common people who are not aware or educated for them if rules are made in the name of religion it is easier for them to follow ,-like hygiene, culture ,or character for the smooth running of the society .all of us like to have and have the phtograghs of our elders or those whom we respect ,so why should it be against VEDAS .jai shree krishna
Chaman Nigam

----------------------------------------------------------

Idols do have utility. prayers in conformity to an idol which serves to bless the intention in a prayer.different type of idols appear to have been invented by our seers for psychic treatment and raise confidence and will power.many people prayers share blessings like a cooperative bank.god on its own is the highest concept. And reality.
subhashtewari

-------------------------------------------------
Everything is worship there is no idol ever there is no worshiping either

There is nothing that is not Upaasanaa. Everything and every act is ever-submitted to THAT. Hence everything is Upaasanaa only sometimes it manifests with specific qualities projected upon individual entities sometimes it just remains in its sublime presence with no apparent qualities The very life is Upaasanaa ... The very existence is Upaasanaa ...

THERE CANNOT BE ANY IDOL WORSHIPPING! Everything is submitted to THAT which transcends all idols altogether - remains exclusive to all in spite of including all!!

When everything - whether manifested or not - is ever-submitted to THAT, anything that apparently is submitted to any perceived idol is also naturally submitted to THAT transcending all hierarchies one can ever fathom in between.

When THAT is everything with absolutely no hierarchy in between, any submission to anything is directly submitted to THAT as such.

When no entity has an option not be in submission to THAT, how can there be any thing or act that can remain not submitted?! How can any remain outside the realms of worshiping??!!

Everything is in absolute submission to THAT Sarvam KrishNaarpitam iti.

At the same time ... when THAT is everything, how can there be anything but THAT?! In that case, who worships whom? What is worshiping?? When there is NOTHING as any specific existence while THAT IS in all beings there is neither a worshiper nor a worshiped ... there is no worshiping in reality ...

THAT JUST IS ... Vasudevah Sarvam iti.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

--------------------------------------------------

Geeta's view is same as Vedas that supreme cannot be idolised. However, Verse 5 of Chapter 12 says that Kleshaha Adhiktarah Tesham, Avyakta Askata Chetasam, Avyakta hi Gatihi Dukham, Dehavadbhihi Avaapyate. Verse makes Bhawad-Geeta's stand clear on the subject in which preceding two verses 3 and 4 describe what is to be achieved and how it can be achieved and also the characteristic of one who have reached the goal as Sarvatra Sambudhhayaha.
Hence although experience of Divine is without form, it manifests in Bhakta with form by his behavioural characteristics. Idol is necessary in the beginning to focus the waandering mind, later purifying it by Bhava Shudhhi by remebering the virtues of the Divine as manifested in the idol and ultimately abandoning the idol with respect when task is achieved.
Jayantilal Shah

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Dear Ones, Namaste!
From the posting of Mike, specially his last para I see the spirit of it and doesn't categorically diminish the value of Idol worship!
I couldn't see humble sdhaka's post though to make comments.
Swamiji has already answered it nicely.
My take is this.
In idol worship, we feel humility by thinking about the quality of diety, particularly when we prostrate at His/Her feet. It is one way we relate to God in the form of Idol or any such symbol. By reminding of the great power of Lord in front of us, we become humble and thus benefit .Humility brings egolessness in us, and this brings Realization down the road!
We are talking about true Humility, not just make believe!
So, if Idol worship works for one regardless of what is said somewhere, fine, do it. At some point we need to go beyond it to arrive at Our True Home - Godliness!
Without Idol worship also one can reach God! Afterall Vedanta is also a part of Vedas teaching us the highest Truth by the way of Direct Path of self-realization by Self-Knowledge!
Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

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Dear all,
Gita accepted both 'Sakara' (Image), 'Niraka' (No Image/Shape) ways of worship. Gita recommended 'Sakara' worship to all, as ' Image worship' is easier for all including common man.

Vasudeva

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Idol Worship Gateway as well as hurdle for spirituality

Though spirituality encompasses existential realm by far, it remains rooted in the very same existence as far as the seeker remains within the existential realm. The only existential mechanism for learning is to observe, imitate, imbibe and feel. A respectful acceptance of the teacher is essential for this process. An IDOL is the only gateway to learn. Therefore, an IDOL is the only gateway for stepping into spirituality as well.

At the same time, an existing IDOL is the road block for the very learning process as one refuses to and/or is afraid of breaking the existing IDOL. An IDOL being a notion generated by an existential element, from existential resources and for serving existential needs OUGHT TO remain an existential entity, just a point in the infinite grid of universal existence. The disciple can never appreciate anything beyond the IDOL unless the associated paradigm is broken!

Therefore, Poojaa is the very first prescription to any. Observe and imitate the IDOLISTIC behavior to learn. Rituals dominate the process.

Next is to appreciate the characteristics of the very rituals, the idol as well as the learner - SaguNopaasanaa. That lets the disciple appreciate the nature of the IDOL being worshipped, the process of worshipping itself as well as the mirror reflection one experiences within. That alone lets the disciple transcend the very IDOL toward a bigger picture.

Only when one develops deep appreciation all three aspects - worshiper, worshipped and worshiping - one naturally makes another paradigm shift absence of all characteristics and its nature - NirguNa. A truthful appreciation of the non-existence that always remains the basis for existence can be enabled only when one breaks the barriers of IDOL in general. ONLY THEN, it is a possibility for appreciating THE ONE that is both existence (SAT) as well as non-existence (ASAT) to experience the ultimate reality ... VAASUDEVAH SARVAM ITI ...

Keeping the ultimate in view, there are utterances here and there that IDOL worshipping SHOULD BE dropped Nedam yadidam upaasate yadasya tvam yadasya deveshvathanu meemaamsyameva te manye viditam even if you think THAT could be a wonderful god that you believe and worship, your appreciation is verily limited and questionable indeed!

One has the be acutely aware of the nature of an IDOL. It is not restricted to just a physical image. Any image is an IDOL only an essay of vocabulary ... a movie of imagery ... just a fiction churned within a mind! An IDOL is anything and everything one tends to believe to lock oneself within - a cosmic entity, a natural form, a physical form, a wall, or a cross, or a symbol, or a sound, or an idea, or a silence ... Vyaakrita as well as Avyaakrita ... Sat as well as Asat ... Existence as well as non-existence ... BUT ... ALL THESE ARE IDOL WORSHIPING (PAGANISM IN OTHER WORDS) ONLY!

Taking this ultimatum as reference, very often one attempts to mislead oneself as well as others by settling to some concept as NIRGUNA while the rest being SAGUNA. The very settling is an indication that the state of very settlement is characteristic of the state bringing the same into SAGUNA realm. Therefore, there is ONLY IDOL WORSHIPING even if it is toward some "AVYAAKRITA" ... until one appreciates THE ONE in ALL, in SAT as well as ASAT, in Vyaakrita as well as Avyaakrita, in Existence as well as Non-existence ... until one appreciates oneself as THAT in depth ... Aham Brahmaasmi ... until one realizes ALL in THAT ... Vaasudevah sarvamiti ...

Till then IDOL WORSHIPING is the only way that we tread, that we can know, that we can experience. Only correction we can make is DO TRUTHFULLY whatever you do THINK TRUTHFULLY whenever you think EXPERIENCE TRUTHFULLY however you experience ... for ONLY ONE REASON - to appreciate THE TRUTH in depth

Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa | Vedaah sarvaangaani | SATYAMAAYATANAM ||

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

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-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Re : 'If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom
will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that
there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita. In the same
manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the
twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the
Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship
easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. It
means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a
beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline."
Whom will he offer leaves, fruit water ... try people who have a
need, not a lifeless statue that has no needs, the Ganga try to
sacrifice by an effort to clean it up and protect it. In other words
the worship by service.

In my group when we meditate, we sit in a circle, in the centre is a
candle, it is there to acknowledge the divine presence, not worshiped,
ie to indicate that meditation is in progress.

From a blog:

But where are the great many quotes in the various scriptures about idol
worship?

There is not even a single line in the Vedas or Puranas that support
idol-worship.

Thus if great learned men use the best Vedic quote, "Come down to us,
Rudra, who art in the high mountains. Come and let the light of thy
face, free from fear and evil, shine upon us. Come to us with thy love,"
and translate it into worship of stone idols we can only reel in
repulsion and disgust. If this is one of the "great many quotes in the
various scriptures of the different sects of Hinduism referring to the
worship of murthis", then we can only shudder in silence and utter aversion.

Hindus should remember that they are led to believe that only their
brahmins are empowered to act as middlemen between themselves and the
gods through elaborate rituals and lengthy sacred sequences of mantras.
For millennia ignorant masses have been conditioned that these temple
priests are able to communicate with the mighty deities represented by
stone statues infused with their shaktis (power) in elaborate rituals
only feasible by brahmins.

So what are brahmins without their visible idols? And what are
worshippers without common sense to distinguish between manmade rituals
and scriptural Truth? And how did the followers of the eternal Sanatana
Dharma succumb to such darkness?

The pristine and flawless Vedic scriptures did not contradict at all. It
was the priestly caste that perverted them for their own power, and
maintained it with a plethora of granite gods. And a billion Hindus
remain blind to one of the greatest falsehood perpetuated in the name of
God Almighty. May they learn through Self-Realization to worship the
Eternal Essence of Brahman (God Almighty) within their own beings than
the lifeless idols without, a stain on the Sanatana Dharma which even
the Great Adi Shakti denounces! { Is this true?}

Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."
"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]
Reflecting on the above Upanishad snaps the whole concept of Bhagavigita
Ch 11 into focus,' cannot see him with the eye', so try observing him
with the consciousness, notice I am not using the word seeing.
Worshiping idols is missing the point.

I would like to explore this whole subject via the Veda, as this was the
platform of the original question.

What say you Sadhaks.

I did a search on Sadhaka-Sanjivani on line, for murti no hits, and idol
no mention in Bhagavadgita, about five mentions in the cometary,why the
silence?
Are the Gods like Shiva, Shakti(goddess) and Lakshmi, and Sri Krisna
clay or are they spirit.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
--------------------------------------------

Dear All,

Worship and prayer are modes of communicating with the all-pervading,omnipresent Divine, with a deep sense of Bhakti(roughly, devotion).
Nobody 'worships' idols as such.The expression 'idol worship' is misleading. People worship God in many ways; one such way is through idols or photographs.
One cannot pray to or worship 'nothingness'. Therefore, we must have a symbol or shape to keep our eyes on or to meditate upon or beseech or speak to.
If someone tells you that he does not worship any image , be rest assured, he is telling a lie ! A Muslim, for example, says he does not pray to idols or photographs;
but when he prays he brings to his mind the image of the Kabba or a similar structure or a mosque, or a saint or a darga. He does not pray to 'nothingness'
because it is not possible, by definition, to visualise 'nothingness'. He too, therefore, is praying to a shape or image that he brings to his mind. So is the case with
other religionists. They too have some symbol or image to pray to or worship.There is no such thing as a superior mode or method of worship, as long as one
prays or worships with total surrender and a deep sense of involvement in the Divine.

SO THEREFORE, REMEMBER , YOU ARE NOT WORSHIPPING OR PRAYING TO AN IDOL , BUT TO GOD, THE DIVINE. THAT IS JUST A SYMBOL FOR YOU TO KEEP YOUR MIND ON.

K.A.K.RAO.

---------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

All the beings are idols (MURTAYA SAMBHAVANTI YAAH-GitaJi 14/4) produced by the combination of lower/APARAA and higher/PARAA natures of the Supreme (GitaJi 7/4-5-6, GitaJi-13/26) . Lord KrishNa, the Supreme, in the form of manifested idol (i.e. VYAKTA MURTI) himself says that everything is pervaded by me as un-manifested idol (AVYAKTA MURTINA - GitaJi 9/4) and not only that he is the universe/multiverse (VISWAMURTI GitaJi-11/46). The Supreme idol, whether manifested or unmanifested is beyond any imagination created with nature produced mind, intellect etc. He, being manifested, is fully unmanifested and vice versa. He has hands, legs, eyes, heads, mouths, ears everywhere and he is sitting while being all pervading. He experiences all the senses without having senses. He takes care of whole world without being attached. He enjoys all the attributes being free from attributes (GitaJi -13/13-14). He has infinite forms (ANANTROOPA, VISWAROOP, CHATURBHUJA, DVIBHUJA,..) . He has infinite names (RAM, KRISHNA, VISHNU, SHIVA, DURGA, GANESH, SKANDA, ... .).

Dear Mike Sir,
In my understanding, the translation of Gita 7-24 , as you have mentioned, is not correct. It has ignored the word AAPANNAM/limited/restricted. Because of that it has changed the whole meaning. You may want to look some other translations/commentaries.
Its should be like.....
The ignorant, not knowing my Supreme imperishable unparalleled BHAAVAM/nature/existence, think of me (the Lord/Bhagavaan who is already manifested and talking to Arjun), the unmanifest, as being limited by the manifestation (i.e. his manifestation is like ordinary being).
Similarily, we must not ignore the word "AASHRITAM" in GitaJi - 9/11 which is also talking about the same fact.

Also, your following sentence does not reflect the true meaning of the those verses.
Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."
These verses do not indicate that "idol worship is bad". Here, in 20-21, it is said that the ignorant, full of material desires/KAAMs worship various TANUM/bodies/forms of demigods and the Lord directs their SHRADDHA/faiths/sentiments to those demigods.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

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Hari Om

This refers to postings of Brother Mike and Humble Saadhaka re: Idol Worship. Rest all saadhaks have given their categorical views in favour of idol worship. I beg pardon of all of you for a detailed reply- exceeding Moderator's Guidelines.

RE: OBSERVATI0NS OF BROTHER MIKE

At the outset my compliments for your deep research , study (svadhyaay) and striving. Your research is doing Divine service to all of us, believe me on that.

Gita is the nectar of all Scriptures including Vedas . It categorically believes in 'idol-worship' ... in all types of idol worship.. clearly and correctly so. There are no contradictions among Gita, Vedas , Upanishads, Bhagvatam, Ramcharitmanas or any other Great scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Absolutely there are no contradictions at least on as important and crucial issue as idol worship. There is no question of "idol worship falling short of real thing"...oh no .. ! If ordinances of Scriptures are followed, certain idol worships get you the real thing most certainly..undeniably..easily..demonstrably..logically !!

At the same time it should be clear that you do not worship stone , you always worship Paramatma /Demi God...etc etc situate in that stone, metal, clay etc etc The Kabir's doha (two liner) referred by the Humble Most Sadhak is talking of those, who see merely a stone or some other thing but not Paramatma in that stone (Kabir attacked belief-less blind rituals more and tamasic worshipping Just As Gita too attacked them ).

The following are some verses of Gita from where the sanctity for idol worship can be inferred:-

Devotees prostrating before Me worship Me with devotion. (9/14); Whoever offers Me with devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I accept that pious offering of the pure in heart (9/26); Worship of God (in his five forms Visnu, Siva, Durga, Ganesa and Sun-God, of the twice born, of teachers (including parents and elders) and of the wise liberated souls this is called austerity of the body (17/14).

If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita. In the same manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. It means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline."

As regards your observations pertaining to worshippers of demi-gods going different way, as compared with worshippers of the Supreme referred in Gita ( 5 Supreme category Gods - Ganesha, Sun, Durga (Shakti), Vishnu and Siva) , firstly please note that idol worship is not limited to these two categories only. As per Gita, Idol worship can also be of
Yakshas (Say Kuber- Rajasic type ) ; Rakshashas ( Say Raavan- Rajasic Type) (BG 17:) ; of Pittars (abode of dead ancestors, elders, parents -9:25/17:4 - Rajasic) ; Bhoots, Pret ganas ( ghosts, spirits - 17- tamasic type ); Dwijas (Brahmins, Yogis, Teachers - 17:14) ; Seers and Saints/ Liberated Souls..17:14 ; Great Mountains (Refer Govardhan worship) , Rivers, ...what not ? Sure...but so what? How does that mean that Scriptures are contradicting between themselves? Idol worship is not controversially recognised in different scriptures - certainly not ? It is unanimously recognised. It is not that Vedas say something and Gita says another ! No... Not at all..! Results may be different based on Bhavas of worshipper but that is the case every where else be it charity or austerity or yagyas (sarifices) ..!!

Let me explain on your views one by one.

.. go to the different planetary systems where various demigods are situated,

Yes ! How does it vitiate the sanctity for idol worship? It does not. There are different results for different karmas emanating out of exercise of power of belief by different Jeevas. Those who worship Supreme alone (through say 5 forms) are worshipping only and exclusively Him and Him alone. Balance may be materialists even , may go to hells too, but so what? Where is contradiction among Scriptures? Where it is wriiten in Gita that idol worship always gets you God ?

just as a worshipper of the sun achieves the sun

Sun is one of the five Supreme. Sun is not demi-god. He is God Himself.

or a worshipper of the demigod of the moon achieves the moon. It is not that everyone, regardless of whatever demigod is worshipped, will reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Sure..! But which scripture promised that idol worship always gets you God? And how does that vitiate the sanctity for idol worship? Tamasic types worship idols of ghosts and spirits also but so what if they go to hells or become ghosts themselves?

That is denied here, for it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to different planets in the material world but the devotee of the Supreme Lord goes directly to the supreme planet of the Personality of Godhead.

So what...? Yes...where is contradiction?

Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence."

It has nothing to do with idol worship.

Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."

Yeah Sure..! So what ? What is the contradiction? Do Vedas say otherwise?

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images."

Where are images? The idols are as per descriptions given in Scriptures. Lord Siva having quarter moon on His Forehead or having Ganges in His hairs is not an image nor is Durga holding weapons or riding on Lion is some imagination.. Nor Lord Hanuman is output of imagination ..Nor Ganesha nor Sun ..Nor Rama nor Krishna ..who is out of imagination ? None.. ! Which demi-god or God etc is an image?

Yajur Veda 32:3: "God is formless and bodiless"

Okay but there is 'Samgra' of Him also. Where the Sakun Sakaar, Nirgun Nirakaar, Sagun Nirakaar etc are denied here. How does it contradict idol worship? Gita also says so at many places exactly or similarly. So what..?

Yajur Veda 40:8: "All those who worship the uncreated things, they are in
darkness, and you'll enter more into darkness if you worship the created things."

Who is worshipping stones ? Idol worship does not mean worshipping stone. You worship Supreme God, or Demi Gods, or Yakshas or Demons or Ghosts believed to be situated in them by you..! All of them are not created/uncreated by worshippers, for example, the idols may be created by sculptors but not God or demi gods believed to be situated in them . Lord Siva or Krishna or Ganesha ..they are not created or uncreated things..nay ..not at all. Actually, here Vedas are confirming Gita and talking about ghastly and tamasic idol worshipping.

Rig Veda, Vol.8,1:1: "All Praise are to Him alone"

Sure ! Who praises worship of tamasic type? Gita has not praised that. Gita has praised only of Supreme ; but then comes Devatas (sattwik) , then Yakshas/Rakshashas- Rajasic) , tamasic all sorts ..! Where iis praise in Gita also of any other except Him alone? Where is contradiction?

Rig Veda, Vol.6,45:16: "There is only One God, worship Him."

Sure ! But where does it say no one can worship any other ? Jeeva has "power to believe" ..a tamasic person may believe in ghost and as a result can become that also. Jeeva can go to hell also because of that but so what? Where is contradiction ?

RE: OBSERVATIONS OF HUMBLE SAADHAKA

As regards observations of Humbly Saadhaka, who claims unshakeable belief in Vasudev Sarvam, and always says 'All is God' but does not believe in 'murti pooja' and thinks that it is 'strange and beyond comprehension'.. my answer is 'Doosara Ayaa Kahaan Se (How other has come)' ?...If All is God where is scope for feeling strange? But, Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj says:

"He who does not worship anything, and only MAKES UP TALKS, he cannot realize that "God is everywhere"....
But those who merely say that God pervades everywhere but don't hold any object in reverence, have no divine sentiments of worship and devotion, and they are not really called devotees because they simply articulate "God is Everywhere" but do not really believe it; that is, they have not really turned towards God."

As regards question of the Humbly Saadhaka that " How can any idol represent the tattva or Paramaatmaa [assigned to be sarvavyaapak and anaadi and anant]? My answer is: Sir, if He is 'sarvavyaapak' then why can't He be in stone also? What is devoid of Him? Doosara Aaya Kahaan Se? - But the answer of Param Shraddheya Swamiji is:

"Worship of God through the medium of a "murti" is a matter of faith rather than of reasoning. The glory of God is revealed to those who have faith in Him. The worship and adoration done by these devotees is accepted and partaken by God. It means God manifest Himself in an idol, in front of a devotee who worships Him with faith and devotion."

That is what Swamiji has said, My Dear Humbly Saadhaka ! Now come to your observations about cow worship. Is there no God in a cow? DOOSARA KAHAAN SE AAYA ? Reply..! What difference does it make to the worship of cow or the God present therein if some body uses Liv-52 or has Italian marble flooring or likes creamy milk of a buffalo? Now read what Swamiji said about cow worship:

"In other words, to experience "God is everywhere," worship of cow are an immense aid. This is because the worshiper, has begun to believe that "God is everywhere".

How can you believe in Vasudev Sarvam and not believe in idol worship or cow worship, this phenomena therefore is strange and incomprehensible to us !!! Please enlighten us and oblige ! This is what remains to be learnt My Dear Humbly Saadhak !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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very good reading .all many aspects have been covered nicely --jai shri krishna
Chaman nigam

---------------------------------------

Gita's view on Idol worship is very simple and clear. Gita says that
the Ultimate Truth to be realised is that God is in everything however
big or infintsimal and everything is in God. This appears very abstract to start with and difficult to realize even follwing the various methods of yoga. It is therefore ntural that many people will like to visualise to start with God as something they can perceive easily, for example a force of nature like Fire or storm or thunder of an animal or a bird or a human being and they would like to keep looking at the picture or idol of such an image of God in the front of their eyes and in their mind to pray to him or worship him. This is like learning A for apple and b for bat in class 1: it is only after some years of scholling that one learbnns languages and only at a later stage learn to appreciate literature, novels, potetry etc. Similarly we learn to conut at the childhood age, thenn learn arithmatic and much later we can learn alegbra and calculus. Not all people get to the stage of mastering literature and hgher mathematics. In the seeking of the ultimate truth, some people will start at the class 1 stage and may remain there or reach upto class8. This is where idol worship is important. But some of them will go to Ohd leel or beyond in search of ultimate tryth as many
saints have done like Shri Ramakrishna, or Kabir. Eveb\n after they have
realised the Truth, they may continue ido worship. Since od resides in
everything, idol worhip is not inconsistent with Gita: but remaining in
idol worship without being able to realise the Truth is a failure to go
up: yet even sincere idol worship on a regular basis gives considerable
inner strentg to the people to live happily amidst all problems. It is
valuable in itself even if the timate Truth is not realised. But one
must know that God does not remain limited to a particular idol and must
not have an ego of pride tat one is worshipping an idol of God.
Vedas prescribe varoious rituals associated with worshipping God ad His
various forms like Fire, Sun, Earth etc. But Gita says that the ultimate
Tuth cannot be realised simply by following the rituals unless one fully submits to God, gives up all ego and desires, anger and hate, Rituals should enable complete submission to God and love for all.
You may like to read Swami Vivekanada's essays on Yoga, especially
BVakti Yga and Gyan Yoga to know his interpretation on this subject of
idol worship.

Basudeb Sen

------------------------------------------

as we who are born in hindu families are exposed to idol worship fron the day we come to think or talk --first words that we hear is the name of ram, krishna ,shiv or any other god [incarnation]mata we are taught to namaskar or chant or the morning [good morning]by the name of god ,how can we br or our dharm [sanatan dharm ]be against idol worship .as said by swami Vivekannd - Hinduism is a way of life --you may not hardly follow the rituals but thinking and living is effected by the hinduism .jai shree krishna .

Chaman Nigam

====================================

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

From: Hindu Scriptural evidence against making and worshipping idols.
Bhagavat Gita 7-23 : Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.
Purport: Some commentators on the BG say that one who worships a demigod can reach the Supreme Lord, but here it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to the different planetary systems where various demigods are situated, just as a worshipper of the sun achieves the sun or a worshipper of the demigod of the moon achieves the moon. It is not that everyone, regardless of whatever demigod is worshipped, will reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is denied here, for it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to different planets in the material world but the devotee of the Supreme Lord goes directly to the supreme planet of the Personality of Godhead.
Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence."
Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images."

Yajur Veda 32:3: "God is formless and bodiless"

Yajur Veda 40:8: "All those who worship the uncreated things, they are in
darkness, and you'll enter more into darkness if you worship the created things."

Rig Veda, Vol.8,1:1: "All Praise are to Him alone"

Rig Veda, Vol.6,45:16: "There is only One God, worship Him."

So from that above it seems that idol worship falls short of the real thing.
Someone may ask me do you have any idols in your house, well I have an image of Guanyin and two Golden Buddhas, do I worship them, light candles, burn incense, offer gifts to them no, I just like their appearance, maybe they reflect a deep part of me, my bhava, do they stir in me something? Sometimes yes, do I use them for devotion? NO. They ultimately remind me of compassion and empathy, 'The Beloved' I really do not need to be reminded of.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike

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IT IS FAR MORE KNOWLEDGE GIVING IF THE SUBJECT MATTER IS CONSIDERED IDOL USAGE THAN WORSHIP.IDOLS SERVE AS STORAGE DEVICES OF INITIAL INPUT ENERGY AND SUBSEQUENT PRAYERS AVAIL THE BENEFIC BLESSINGS.
subhashtewari

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Dear Sadaks,
Idol worship is ideal for sadaks. One has to concentrate all his mind on ONE thing first without any distraction. So a person first stars with idol worship, develops devotion, this devotion develops into Bakthi, this bakthis develops into Nis Kama prema Bakthi, the he see GOD everywhere and in everything like Prahalad. Only when mind reaches a stage where a person sees God as Omnipresent the he reaches godliness. God is said by Vedas, "Akshranam" (Divine Sound) Om, "apprameyam" (God cannot be seen with eyes and felt like object), which again means idol worship level overcome. Many Bakthas like Meera, Tukaram, Tulasidoss, Markandeya etc all first worshiped idol. The they reached heights where they saw God everywhere and in everything, then gave NO importance to idol worship.
B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

Divine Moderators have already attached comprehensive views of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What then remains to be said? Ha..the very framing and language of question then becomes questionable !!!

No worship of Supreme is against Vedas ! You don't worship idol/ stone..you worship the 'avyakta' (unmanifest) Paramatma, interalia, situated in that stone ! It is your inner 'bhava' (sentiment) that gets credit not the outer couch. Your heart must melt in devotion. Swamiji often said: Yardstick of Vasudev Sarvam realisation is that what you get by worshipping an idol in a temple, you get the same thing by making prayer before a torn cloth !! It is 'bhava' all along !!
Actually , said Swamiji, to have a vision/thought/drishti of food in the prasad of God (Thakurji), drishti of water in Thakurji's charanamrit ( water which touched the legs of Thakurji's idol), drishti of stone in Thakurji's Shree Vigrah (idol) and of caste(jaati) in a Sadhu ..these drishtis take the seer into hells. Hence when you worship idol , your view/drishti/thought/vision/bhava should of seeing God in it...it should not be seeing a stone !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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Idol worship Poojaa Upaasanaa

Worship is an act in reverential submission. Worship to anything ought to be worship to The God. As Bhagavadgita declares often, the worship is always submitted to The Supreme irrespective of who and what is worshipped because HE IS EVERYTHING! Actually, there is no act that is not a worship in the whole universe because all acts and the very action is ever submitted to THAT ... Karma Brahmodbhavam viddhi! Therefore, there is no problem in worshipping any idol of your choice! However, one should be very cognizant that worshipping is FOR ONE'S OWN BENEFIT! GOD does not need any. The very notion that "HE may" drops the very god into a mere image, an inert, irresponsive and indifferent idol generating kind of desolation within the seeker.

Idolization is natural to any being. One puts forth one's life with idolization mother, then father, etc. Idolization is the natural way of learning survival, imbibing the acts of survival that the idol exhibits and suggests. Since, idolization is so natural to everyone, it is the easiest approach for seeking Truth as well and hence promoted heavily in our scriptures. But, it is worthwhile noting certain subtleties here!

There are two types of worship: Poojaa and Upaasanaa. Both are meant for spiritual upliftment in the seeker's appreciation and are prescribed depending upon the nature of seeker.

Poojaa is one where the seeker submits oneself completely to another entity. An idol becomes a must in such an act. The worshipped entity ought to be relatively superior to the worshipper. The surrender becomes stronger as the worshipper perceives deeper sense of reverence toward the worshipped, The Idol. The prescription on Poojaa is to expand the very idol - be it an idea or an idol, or a picture or a person or nature or earth or sun or anything else - to its universal presence. Though the prescription is almost foolproof in its intent of dropping ego (Manonaasha) and realization (Aatmabodha), it has a subtle residual problem:

(1) Manonaasha: A trace of ego is shifted into the idol instead. For example, the worshippers often become violent if their idols are not respected in any form.

(2) Aatmabodha: The seekers stumble on mental blocks as the idol perceived is limited in its existential sense. Often, the seekers cannot break that barrier to appreciate the universal awareness.

As far as the worshipper (Poojaari) is always reminded of Poojaa's true intent, Poojaa is the most feasible, approachable and effective path for a seeker.

Upaasana, on other hand, means a paradigm shift. As the scripts says, the fellow within seems to be split in two - Ritam pibantou sukritasya loke ... one actively enjoying the ever-changeful world and another staying without any changes just as a witness. Upaasanaa is to shift oneself (as an individual perceived as doer, knower as well as enjoyer) to an epicenter in one's own perceived universe, to become the witness in spite of being active in this world. ANY ACT WHERE ONE IS ABLE TO EXPERIENCE THE WITNESS IS VERILY UPAASANAA! Once THE WITNESS is experienced, EVERYTHING is experienced as THAT IS EVERYTHING!

As mentioned earlier Poojaa is the starting point for any as it is closest to one's nature of day-to-day survival. Therefore one needs to bridge between Poojaa and Upaasanaa. Accordingly, Upaasanaa is of two types - SaguNa and NirguNa.

SaguNopaasanaa leads the seeker with the Poojaa with a paradigm shift - offset yourself to a witness of both the worshipper and the worshipped. It provides an opportunity to witness subject as well as object OBJECTIVELY... an opportunity to appreciate the true nature of the individual as opposed to the idol involved! ... an opportunity to appreciate all individuals and all idols collectively!! ... an opportunity to peek at a potential reality beyond all perceived qualities (GuNas)!!!

NirguNopaasanaa raises from SaguNopaasanaa as the witness stand becomes stronger. The seeker graduates naturally to appreciate the merger of the two distinct entities - the worshipper and the idol in their presence (Vyaakrita, SaguNa)! The empowered witness enables one to see the inseparable conjugate pair in their absence (Avyaakrita, NirguNa) as well!! One starts realizing the SaguNa in NirguNa and vice versa!!! The realization starts dawning in the horizons of one's innate presence ... THE ONE THAT EVER IS remains AS EVER ... all worshippers, all idols and yet neither a worshipper nor an idol, but JUST THAT.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
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Respecting Idol worship, Respecting our Nation's/Team's Flag or Symbol, or Respecting our holy books are all alike.
In all of them we create a Form to evoke the sentiments. Thats the most easy and superior way for Humans to work for higher cause.

Human emotions quickly respond to external stimulus. We can stimulate them to move towards a higher or lower cause. Idols, Flags, books, symbols are the external stimulis whereby we can employ/direct the emotions towards higher cause.

regds,
rakesh

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Strange and beyond comprehension is this moorti-poojaa.
How can any idol represent the tattva or Paramaatmaa [assigned to be sarvavyaapak and anaadi and anant]?
What is to be said about polluting the air in several ways and worshipping pawan devataa?
The same is the case with cows. People prefer buffalo's creamy milk and consider cow's milk for the sick persons and children. Who cares what Bhai Sathyanarayan said? No man uses cow dung in marble floored rooms. Who (except one or two) will give gaumootra in liver trouble of kids instead of Liv-52 or alike?
Worshipping of idols in temples and letting the invalid and the diseased sleep hungry stomach in the neighbourhood.
Kabeer said,''paahan pooje se hari mile, to main poojoon pahaad ...."
What else remains there to learn?
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please read the attached Article by Swamiji from "Gita Darpan" published by Gita Press. Let us know if this has been helpful. Sadhaks please express your insights from the "scriptures"/Gita, regarding this topic. Ram Ram

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

On Idol Worship in the Gita

Ye sanatana dharmasthaah sraddhaa prema samanvitah |

Murti pujan na kurvanti murtau tu prabhu pujanam ||

According to our eternal Vedic principles devotees do not worship idols, rather they worship only God. It means God (Supreme Consciousness) pervades everywhere, however, to be particularly aware of Him, a "murti" (no exact translation, idol is being used) is created for worshiping Him. By doing so, meditation and thinking about God can takes place very easily and continuously.

If it is the "murti" that is being worshiped, then a devotee should have the sentiments within of it being a "murti", that it is stone from a particular mountain, it was created by some person, and brought here by another! In other words, O' Lord of stones, you please lead me to my salvation. However, no one says such a thing at all. Then how is it considered "murti" idol worship? Therefore devotees do not do idol worship, however they worship God in the "murti". This sort of worship is the beginning of devotion. This worship continues even when a devotee attains perfection.

Regarding "murti puja" the Lord declares in the Gita, "Devotees prostrating before Me worship Me with devotion. (9/14); "Whoever offers Me with devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I accept that pious offering of the pure in heart" (9/26); "Worship of God (in his five forms Visnu, Siva, Durga, Ganesa and Sun-God, of the twice born, of teachers (including parents and elders) and of the wise liberated souls this is called austerity of the body (17/14). If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita.

In the same manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. In other words, to experience "God is everywhere," worship of cow are an immense aid. This is because the worshiper, has begun to believe that "God is everywhere". On the other hand he who does not worship anything, and only makes up talks, he cannot realize that "God is everywhere". It means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline.

Besides worship of God, to worship body made of bones and flesh, in other words, to adorn our bodies with make-up, beautiful ornaments and clothing and building luxurious homes and decorating it with beautiful objects, is nothing but worship of idols which will lead to ruin.

** Something Worth Knowing **

Generally all the believers hold the opinion that God pervades everywhere; But those who have started worshiping Him through the medium of an "murti" or the Veda, the Sun, the pipal, the tulsi plant or cow etc. are really speaking, believers in God's all pervasiveness. Because, those who accept the presence of God in an "murti", the Veda, the Sun, etc, will on their own, begin to believe in the presence of God everywhere, and in all beings. Those who accept the presence of God only in a "murti" etc., they have been called "Prakrta" (Beginners) (Srimadbhaag 11/2/47) because they have begun the practice of worshippng God in one place, in other words, they have turned towards (developed inclination for) God. But those who merely say that God pervades everywhere but don't hold any object in reverence, have no divine sentiments of worship and devotion, and they are not really called devotees because they simply articulate "God is Everywhere" but do not really believe it; that is, they have not really turned towards God.

Worship of God through the medium of a "murti" is a matter of faith rather than of reasoning. The glory of God is revealed to those who have faith in Him. The worship and adoration done by these devotees is accepted and partaken by God. Just like God ate the "Kitchadi" (cooked rice and lentil) prepared by Karma bai; God ate the tikkad (flat bread cake) from devotee Dhannaa; God drank the milk prepared by Meera bai etc. It means God manifest Himself in an idol, in front of a devotee who worships Him with faith and devotion.

Question: How do we know whether God accepts and partakes in the food offered to Him by devotees?

Answer: In God's kingdom things do not hold importance, rather it is the sentiments "bhaav" that are important. It is due to sentiments only that God partakes in the food and the actions offered to Him. When a devotee has the sentiments of feeding God from the core of his heart, then God begins to feel hungry. Because of the sentiments of the devotee, the food that is partaken by God, that thing does not remain perishable, rather it becomes divine. Even if there is some defect in the sentiment of devotion, He is satisfied merely by the offer of food to Him. For God to be satisfied, things and actions are not important, rather only the sentiments are important. The saints also declare that God relishes the simplest dishes offered with devotion but He rejects the most delicious dishes offered without devotion.

Once I came across a devotee who served a saint with great reverence. He said that he knew that the saint was thirsty. So when he took water for the saint, the saint drank it. Similarly a chaste wife comes to know when her husband is hungry and thirsty and what dish he will relish in lunch or dinner etc. When that dish is offered to the husband, he declares that today he wanted to have that very same dish. Similarly a devotee comes to know when God is hungry and thirsty and foods God wants to relish.

A few anecdotes may illustrate the point -

There was a priest in a temple. His favorite deity was Bal Gopal (Krishna, as a boy). He used to make small "ladoos" (a sweet dish, a sweetmeat in the form of a ball) and place it near his head at night while sleeping because children get hungry at night. On day he forgot to put the put the "ladoos" so at night Bal Gopal told him in his dream, that I am feeling hungry. There is a similar incident. There was an ascetic. Every year after Diwali, he offered cashews, almonds, pistachios, walnuts etc. to the Lord. One year the nuts became very expensive, so he began to offer peanuts to the Lord. One day the Lord said to him in a dream - What ! Are you going to feed me only peanuts? Thereafter he once again began to offer cashews, almonds etc. Before he had some doubts as to whether God was partaking in the offerings or not? But once God told him in his dreams, then all his doubts vanished. This means that when food is offered to God, He becomes hungry and he accepts and partakes in it.

There was a sage who had a great appetite. One day he fell very sick. Someone advised him to frequently drink the cow's milk, but to only drink that milk that remains after the calf has been fed. He followed the advice of first letting the calf be well-fed and thereafter extracting and drinking the remaining cow's milk was quite filling. After a few days he recovered and became healthy. The act of justice has so much power that it can cure even sickness and satisfy the sage, then what to speak of an object that is offered with devotion to God !

Everyone must have realized the fact that when a person offers you food with love and affection, then that food has extra-ordinary flavor, it is delicious and that food helps in maintaining divine traits in you. Even animals are no exception. They too are influenced by the sentiments. When a cow dies leaving its calf behind, the calf is fed on milk of another cow. The calf remains alive with that milk, but he does not become well-nourished. The same calf if he had drank the mother's milk, then the mother would lick his body with love, and feed him, by which even with a little bit of milk, the calf would have become well nourished and healthy. When even human beings and animals are affected by the sentiment of affection, then what to speak of God Who knows even the hearts, minds and sentiments of devotees? It was because of this devotion of Vidura's wife that Lord Krishna ate the banana peel offered with great devotion. Again it was out of affection of the gopis (that Lord Krishna ate curd and butter by snatching it from their hands. The Lord says to Brahma -

"Naivedhyam purato nyastam chakshushaa grhyate mayaa |

Rasam cha daasjihvaayaamshraami kamalobhdava ||

"O lord of the Lotus! I accept and partake in the food preparations put before Me through My eyes but I relish these foods through the tongue of My devotee."

I have also heard the saints saying that sometimes God sees the food offered to Him with devotion, sometimes He touches it and sometimes He also eats a part of it.

As the father of a child gets pleased if the child hands over something to him, then he is very pleased, the father lifts his hands and says to the child, and tells the child to grow big and tall. Was that thing unattainable by the father? Did the father get anything of great importance when the child gave that thing to him? No! The father is pleased, simply due to the sentiments of giving expressed by the child. Similarly, God is not lacking in anything. Nor does God desire anything. Then too God is pleased when a devotee expresses the sentiment of giving (making an offering). But those people who decorate the temples and the idols only for cheating people, who offer delicious dishes to Him to deceive, then God does not accept their offerings. Such people, don't actually worship God, rather they are worshiping money, individuals and selfishness.

Those who call the devotees who make offerings to God, who worship and revere God as hypocrites, and themselves being filled with pride, consider that they are better, and not hypocrites, then such individuals cannot attain salvation. Those who are engaged in performing virtuous deeds in whatever way they can, they are virtuous as such, while those who renounce virtuous deeds out of pride will reap adverse fruit for their evil deeds.

Question - The wicked break "murti" of God, then why does God not reveal His powers, His miracles ?

Answer - He who does not have good sentiments towards God's idols, he who is averse to those who worship and pray to God's idols, and he who destroys the idols out of hatred, why at all would God reveal His powers and His miracles in front of these people? God's greatness is revealed when there is faith.

Those who worship God in an Idol due to their sentiments - "God is present in this Idol" being weak, therefore when evil men who destroy the idols, God does not reveal His powers. But those devotees who have complete and implicit faith and belief that "God is present in this idol," then there God reveals His miraculous powers. Just like in Gujarat near Surat there is a temple of Lord Siva. In the emblem of Lord Siva (Siva Linga) there are many holes. The reason is that when the Muslims came to destroy that emblem of Lord Siva, innumerable large bees came out of that emblem and it caused the Muslims to flee.

The candidates who want to pass an examination respect the examiner because their success depends on him. But God has not to pass any one's examination. Because God's passing in exam does not make Him greater, and His failure does not make Him weaker. Just as when Ravana sends Maricha disguised as a fraudulent golden deer in order to put Lord Rama to test, the Lord chases the deer. It means that He fails in the test given to Him by Ravana. Now what certificate did he wish to get from Ravana! Similarly God fails in the examination given to him by those who destroy temples. The Lord does not reveal His glory to them because they come to Him with evil sentiments rather than as devotees.

A man according to his sentiments has different dealings with his wife, mother, and sister, though the female bodies are of a similar type. Similarly an idol made of stone, brass or silver is God for a devotee while for a non-believer it is merely an idol made of stone, brass or silver. The properties of each are different, but the sentiments are one and the same (i.e. it is the presence of God in the idol). It is in the sentiments that one can find God -

"God reside neither in wood nor in stone nor in clay but He resides in the sentiment; therefore sentiment plays an important role." (Garuda. Uttara 3/10)

There was an ascetic, that was free from worldly desires. He had two idols - one of the Lord Ganesa and another of a rat - both of the same weight. The ascetic had to go to Ramesvarama for pilgrimage. So he wanted to sell the two idols to a goldsmith. The goldsmith weighed the two and said that he would pay Rs. 500 for each. The ascetic said, "How can both cost the same? One of them is Lord Ganesa while the other is his vehicle." The goldsmith said, "Sir! I don't value Lord Ganesa or the rat; I value only gold". The ascetic's sight was only on Lord Ganesa and the rat whereas the goldsmith's sight was only on the gold. Similarly those who destroy idols perceive stone and brass etc., rather than God in the idol.

In fact all animate and inanimate beings and objects etc., are the manifestations of God. Those who have the sentiments and believe that God pervades every where, behold God in every being and object. But those who attach importance to the world, they behold the various beings and objects as separate. Similar it can be understood with the idols.

Question - The wicked break idols of God, then why does God not reveal His powers, His miracles ? (continued)

Answer: (continued) People worship the deities (idols) with faith, they sing glories and pray to the Lord; because they see something extra-ordinary in the idol; but those who destroy the idols, they too perceive something special in these idols. If they did not see anything special in these idols, then why would they only destroy the idols, why do they not break other stones? In other words, they too believe there is something extra-ordinary in the idol. It is only due to hatred for those who have faith and to want to cause pain and suffering to them that they destroy the idols.

Out of jealousy and egoism, some people, destroy the temples that were constructed according to the limits and boundaries established of customs and as prescribed in the scriptures and they destroy the idols that were invoked with the spirit of God (praan pratishthaa) through a formal process. They do so in order to hurt the feelings of believers, to distress them, to transgress their ethical propriety, and to earn their own name and fame. Out of that hatred, they destroy idols, to invoke pain and distress in the hearts of Hindus, for generations to come as these Hindus on seeing these broken deities are reminded. Such persons have to meet with an extremely evil fate. They go to the treacherous hells because their intentions are evil, to give pain and suffering to others, to destroy others. The outcome of evil intentions is also evil. But those who apply all their strength to protect the temples and the deities, and even sacrifice their lives, they meet with a good end because their intentions were good.

If we respect a learned man, then as such, we are revering the knowledge, not the person's body made of flesh and bones. Similarly those who believe in the presence of God in the deities (idols), they worship God only. Through the deities it is God only that is being revered, not the deity. Those who do not believe in God in a deity (idol), the glory of God is not revealed in front of them; whereas God's glories manifest in front of a believer.

Question: Why should we do murti puja (worship idols)? What is the need of Murti Puja (idolatry?

Answer: We should worship deities (idols) in order to increase the sentiment of devotion, to awaken that sentiment and to please God. It is also essential to get rid of the importance we have placed for this world in our inner faculties, and to get rid of the various attachments and infatuations to the world. By the worship of God through the deity (idol), by offering flower garlands, by adorning the Lord, by offering homage with kindled lamps and by offering various food preparations to the Lord are all very essential. The point is by worshiping the deities, we gain doubly our sentiment of devotion is awakened and enhanced and our "sense of mine" and attachment to the mundane objects is renounced.

Every person should hold one place in their heart, for which he is willing to renounce everything. That place may either be God, or a saint or great soul, or mother-father, or a teacher. By doing so, man's worldly sentiments are reduced and spiritual sentiments increase.

As part of a pilgrimage, a group of people were going around Kasi. A guide was showing them around the various temples and made them prostrate before the emblem of Lord Siva to worship Him. Among the group were a few modern day boys. They disliked paying their obeisance at the various different places and so they remarked. "What is the benefit of prostrating so often at the various deities? There was a saint who listened to them. He said to the boys. Brothers, just as you reside in this body made of flesh and bones, so does God reside in the idol. Your life spam is fairly short, whereas, the life span of this deity of Lord Siva is significantly longer. Therefore from the perspective of years of life, the Shiv Linga is far older than you. From the perspective of purity if one sees then this body made of flesh and bones is far more impure than this deity made of stone. From the perspective of strength, this stone is far stronger than these bones. If you want to test this, surely you strike your head against this stone and see for yourself which one breaks - your head or the stone deity. You have sinful qualities and bad conduct, whereas this deity is flawless. The point is that the deity (idol) is better and great in all respects. Therefore the deity is worth worshiping. It is venerable. You consider your name's praise and blame as your own praise and blame, your body's honor and dishonor, as your own honor and dishonor, then will God not consider the worship, eulogy and prayer offered to Him in the idol as His own? O' Brother! In fact your name and body which are praised and honored are not your own self, yet you become pleased by praise and honor. But God pervades the entire universe including the idols. Therefore He is present also in the deities as it too is a form of God. Will God not be pleased while we worship Him in the idol? The extent to which we express our sentiments of worship for Him, God will be that much more pleased with us.

Question: Why should we do murti puja (worship idols)? What is the need of Murti Puja (idolatry? (continued)

Answer: (continued) He who is a believer in God, even though he may restrain himself from worship of idols, but regardless, worship of idols takes place through him. Now how is that? He believes and follows the ordinances of the Vedas, then that too is worship of idols as Vedas too (being written book) are idols only. Revering the Vedas is a form of idol worship only. Similarly reverence and service to the preceptor (guru), to parents and guest etc., to serve them with food, water, clothing etc is a form of idol worship. Their bodies are insentient but by revering their bodies, they too are being revered, by which they are pleased. The point is that man wherever, whoever, in which ever form he respects and reveres, it is all worship of idols. If man worships the idol with deep sentiments, then that worship is God's worship only.

There was a recluse who lived under an umbrella and worshiped an idol of Lord Visnu made of black stone (Shaligram). Some people who did not believe in idol worship, they did not like this Babaji's form of worship. They complained about him to Mr. Hook an English Officer, hat he was insulting the all-pervading God by worshiping this black stone idol. Mr. Hook angrily ordered the recluse to leave that place for good. The next day the recluse made a statue of Mr. Hook and began to beat it with his shoe by demonstrating in front of the people and calling the statue of Mr. Hook an idiot. This incident was brought to the attention of Mr. Hook. He again called the recluse and asked him why he was insulting him in that way. The recluse replied that he did not insult him at all but he was insulting this foolish statue of his. After saying this he kicked the statue with his shoes. Mr. Hook said that insulting my statue, is insulting me only. The recluse said, that you are not in this statue (i.e. idol) at all, then too even simply for name sake you are so very much affected. Our God is in all space, time, things, etc; Thus he who with faith worships God in an idol, then is this revering God or not? Hearing his reasoning, Mr. Hook said to the recluse, that he could go to his place and worship the idol free as he wished.

Question - Some people eat or drink forbidden things such as meat or beer etc. in the temple premises or nearby. Why does God not prevent them from doing so?

Answer Children play mischievous games in front of their parents; but parents don't punish them because they think that children are our very own, out of ignorance and innocent they are not aware. Similarly God also thinks that they are my very own ignorant children. Therefore God's sight does not go towards our behavior at all. But those who eat or drink forbidden food and perform forbidden actions in the temple premises, they will have to suffer for their misdeeds.

Question Previously, Kabirji and a few other saints criticized idolatory, Why?

Answer - Saints and great souls manifest and reveal themselves according to the need of the hour and perform actions accordingly. When many fights broke out between the followers of the Siva and those following Vishnu, at that time Tulsidasji Maharaj composed the Ramcharitmanasa, by which the fights between the two came to an end. Many have written different commentaries on the Gita. As according to the need of the hour, the great souls received that particular inspiration in their hearts, and accordingly the commentaries were written. When the Baudha religion (Buddhism) was spreading by leaps and bounds, at that time Sankaracharya revealed Himself and propagated Sanatana Dharma. Similarly when the Muslims ruled over India and the temples as well as, idols were destroyed by them the saints such as Kabirji and other saints declared, "We need neither temples, nor idolatry because our God does not reside only in temples and idols but He pervades everywhere." In fact the intent of these saints was not to criticize idolatry but they meant to direct the people towards God.

Question Nowadays the times are not as they were before, the Muslims are not destroying the temples and idols. Then too why do the followers of a certain sect criticize idolatry and worship of God endowed with form?

Answer - To criticize any one is to have insistence on your own sect and ways; because those who criticize other sects (their beliefs and opinions), do not want to realize the essence of the Supreme Consciousness (Paramatmatattva), they do not want their own salvation, rather they want their individual form of worship, they want to expand their sect's numbers, they want to propagate their sect and organization. Believers in such sects and groups will not realize God. Those who have insistence of their own sect, organizations and groups, they are of certain system of opinions, doctrines, religious, philosophical persuasions and such people's talks are not worth believing and accepting -

People who have insistence on their own sect, belief systems and opinions, cannot know the Essence (tattva). (Manas 1/115/4)

Those who believe in the attributeless, formless God, criticize the worship of deities, then as such they are belittling their All Pervading One, because from their beliefs and opinions, that formless God does not pervade at the places where there are idols. In other words, their formless God is in certain space only (not everywhere). If they accepted the formless God even in the idol, then why would they criticize the one endowed with form? Secondly, those who worship the formless, believe that God is neither endowed with form, nor does he incarnate (as an avatar); it means that their Omnipotent, Almighty God, is incapable to (incarnate) and to be endowed with form, in other words, that Paramatma is not Almighty. But in fact Paramatma is not so. "He is being (manifested) and non-being (unmanifested) (Gita 9/19). So instead of getting entangled about His form etc., we should worship Him according to our own belief.

We must think that do we want our salvation, or do we want to engage in controversies and arguments about formless-with form etc.? If according to our interest and inclination, if we utilize our time in worship of either God endowed with form or The Formless then it will lead to spiritual progress.

"Tere bhaave jo karo bhalo burou sansaar |

"Narayan" tu baithike aapnou bhuvan buhaar ||

But if we insist on fighting then there are many mundane affairs in this world pertaining to wealth and property etc., which people can fight over. But after pursuing the spiritual path, why must we induce fights? Why should we unnecessarily waste our time and energy in condemning and criticizing the ways of worship of other sects? Rather, while we are engaged in worship, how did we find the time to criticize other people's faith? The amount of time we wasted in insulting and blaming other sects and their ways of worship, that much time if we followed our own spiritual path with faith, reverence and devotion then we would be greatly benefited.

Those saints that have criticized idolatry, they have (instead of idolatry) laid special emphasis on chanting the name of God, good company, words of spiritual guide, contemplation on God, meditation etc. But the people who have renounced idolatry and at the same time are not promptly engaged in chanting the name of God and meditation etc., they are deprived of both the benefits! Instead of them, those that worship idols are superior because at least they worship God according to their own belief system.

Some believers may argue that they condemn other ways of worship in order to intensify their own way of worship and to develop exclusive devotion for it. The answer is that a devotee can't develop exclusive devotion to his favorite Deity or to his way of worship by condemning others ways, because it is only He who assumes different names and forms. He is attributeless, as well as, endowed with attributes. Therefore the believers of different sects believing in different ways of worship should respect one another because everyone worships the same God. Those that are with faith and belief, with a simple straight-forward sentiments engaged in the worship of their Beloved (Ishtha), by condemning their Beloved, their way of worship, their heart will be hurt, it will feel a blow, whereby they will be pained and will suffer, then those who have condemned them will incur grave sin, whereby their own way of worship will not lead them to perfection.

Condemning others in the name of exclusive devotion is an evil disguised as a virtue. It is easy to escape an evil by considering it an evil, but it is very difficult to escape an evil if it appears as a disguised virtue. Ravana and Kalanemi disguised as Saints could deceive Sita and Hanumana repectively. Similarly Arjuna also recoiled from fighting, that is doing his dharma (i.e. duty) being a member of the warrior class, thinking that he would incur sin by killing his kinsmen. So in Arjuna also he evil of unmanliness appeared as disguised non-violence and virtue. Therefore much effort was required by Lord Krishna in preaching the lengthy gospel of the Gita. If the evil appeared in Arjuna in the form of an evil, then Lord could easily remove it. Similarly if the evil of condemnation appears in us in the form of exclusive devotion, we should not mislead ourselves to ruin by wasting our precious time, capabilities, understanding etc. in condemning others. But an aspirant should want that with great caution and alertness, he must utilize his resources (time, abilities, capabilities etc) in worshipping his favorite Deity.

Those saints that have criticized idolatry, they have (instead of idolatry) laid special emphasis on chanting the name of God, good company, words of spiritual guide, contemplation on God, meditation etc. But the people who have renounced idolatry and at the same time are not promptly engaged in chanting the name of God and meditation etc., they are deprived of both the benefits! Instead of them, those that worship idols are superior because at least they worship God according to their own belief system.

Some believers may argue that they condemn other ways of worship in order to intensify their own way of worship and to develop exclusive devotion for it. The answer is that a devotee can't develop exclusive devotion to his favorite Deity or to his way of worship by condemning others ways, because it is only He who assumes different names and forms. He is attributeless, as well as, endowed with attributes. Therefore the believers of different sects believing in different ways of worship should respect one another because everyone worships the same God. Those that are with faith and belief, with a simple straight-forward sentiments engaged in the worship of their Beloved (Ishtha), by condemning their Beloved, their way of worship, their heart will be hurt, it will feel a blow, whereby they will be pained and will suffer, then those who have condemned them will incur grave sin, whereby their own way of worship will not lead them to perfection.

Condemning others in the name of exclusive devotion is an evil disguised as a virtue. It is easy to escape an evil by considering it an evil, but it is very difficult to escape an evil if it appears as a disguised virtue. Ravana and Kalanemi disguised as Saints could deceive Sita and Hanumana repectively. Similarly Arjuna also recoiled from fighting, that is doing his dharma (i.e. duty) being a member of the warrior class, thinking that he would incur sin by killing his kinsmen. So in Arjuna also he evil of unmanliness appeared as disguised non-violence and virtue. Therefore much effort was required by Lord Krishna in preaching the lengthy gospel of the Gita. If the evil appeared in Arjuna in the form of an evil, then Lord could easily remove it. Similarly if the evil of condemnation appears in us in the form of exclusive devotion, we should not mislead ourselves to ruin by wasting our precious time, capabilities, understanding etc. in condemning others. But an aspirant should want that with great caution and alertness, he must utilize his resources (time, abilities, capabilities etc) in worshipping his favorite Deity.

Question: How is "Svayambhu" (Self-Existent) idol sculptured?

Answer This question can arise only if "Svayambhu" (self-existent) idol is sculpted. They are not sculpted at all. They simply manifest (Reveals themselves), therefore it is called self-existent; or else why would it be "Svayambhu"?

Question How to know whether an "murti" idol is self-existent "Svayambhu" or sculptured?

Answer Every person cannot know it (i.e. recognize a self-existent idol). As a person recognizes an old acquaintance, so does a devotee who has vision of God recognize a self-existent idol.

Question What is the difference if a person worships a sculpted "murti" idol or a self-existent "Svayambhu" idol?

Answer - If a devotee has belief and faith, then worshiping the sages in an emblem of sacrificial grass or Lord Ganesa through betel-nut proves beneficial. Similarly if a devotee beholds and worships the sculptured idol, it leads him to spiritual progress. But worshiping a self-existent idol and having belief and faith leads to special and quick spiritual progress. Just like on listening to the discourse of a saint in person is far more beneficial than reading his discourse from a book, so is worship of a self-existent idol more beneficial. Sanjaya also declares the same about the gospel of the Gita that he has heard the supreme and most profound gospel direct from Lord Krishna (Gita 18/75).

Question What is the reason that a person is easily and suddenly attached to the world but he is not easily attached to God?

Answer - The reason is that a person regards himself as body. By identifying himself with the body, he is easily attached to the world because the body has its identity with the world. Homogeneous entities are suddenly attached to each other as people of the same social order and same profession etc., are easily connected. Just as those who consider themselves to be Brahmin, Kshatriya , become connected with Brahmin, Kshatriya, and those who consider themselves to be wise, traders, etc, they easily establish relation with others that are wise, traders etc., - "Samaansheel-vyasaneshu sakhyam" A man does not directly have vision of God and he considers himself to be an idol (body), then for such a one, to have the sentiments of the presence of God in the "murti" idol will be easy. IN other words, as long as there is a sense of Me and mine-ness, till then one should worship idol of God. Even after God-Realization he should not renounce worshiping the idol, because the spiritual discipline that was beneficial to him, he must remain ever grateful to it, it must not be renounced.

From book in Hindi "Gita Darpan" by Swami Ramsukhdasji

The message is available in HINDI titled "GITA MEIN MURTI PUJA" in July 2010 Folder at: http://www.satcharcha.blogspot.com/

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[gita-talk] Re: What is the Exact Scope of Dharma?

2012-01-30T19:27:00.000-08:00

I have been following this site for a while and I must congratulate all those concerned in doin a fantastic job
My question is that as per our shastras all endeavours of human pursuit can be classified as our 4 Purusharthas as Artha Kama Dharma and Moksha
I want some clarity on the exact scope of Dharma Is it religousity spirituality or righteousness.
Please throw light

Humbly
Vineeta Malpani
----------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please read the Article THE ESSENCE OF DHARMA by Swamiji -

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/eBooks/Essence-of-Dharma.pdf

The Gist of this article is -
"Dharmasarvasva" meaning if the entire "Dharma"
(spiritual and moral laws) can be said in a few words, then
it is - that which is unfavorable to us, do not do that to
others. In this, is the essence of all scriptures.

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
-------------------------------------------------

Respected Sadhaks!
Please attain yoga (samataa) by being devoid of evil (buraaee rahit) only; instead of doing good to others which is not always in out hands. [saadhak-sanjeevanee pp 399].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

-------------------------------------------------

Hare Krishna
I think It is the combination of all one has to be righteous,kauravas had cheated the pandavas and therefore there was a Dharmayudh between them.it was for reestablishing dharma that krishnavtar had taken place in that yuga.
Hare Rama
S.M.Vora
------------------------------------------------

In my humble opinion, Dharma is just a fruit of doing Karma with krishna/ishwar consciousness.
Lets focus on Karma dedicated to God and he would take care of the 4 fruits (dharma, artha, kaam, moksha).
Dharma is gross, Karma is subtle.
Lets work on the subtle and gross will take care of its own.
When saints do karma for prabhu/ishwar/krishna, he comes to re-establish dharma as fruit in us and in society.
regds,
Rakesh

----------------------------------------------

should physical sufferings be co-related to our deeds . are our un- religious [ paap ]deeds are the cause of pain and sufferings in this life may be of previous birth ."? why on earth mostly earnest ,truthful and honest people suffer more ?jai shree krishna

Chaman Nigam

---------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Whatever karma we do, we should always keep Dharma (duty) in view. Every action should be for welfare of 'others' and for all , it should not be alone for your own happiness ! Duty is never a subject matter of worry. It is a subject matter of 'vichaar' (careful consideration). Actually, you derive real happiness when you diligently do your duty, that quality/kind of happiness is not generated in enjoying worldly bhogs/pleasures. Even birds and animals get worldly pleasures ! One has opprtunity of doing duty, therefore, should consider oneself forunate.

In the deed, where you renounce your own pleasure and impart pleasure to others; where there is benefit of both you and others...that deed is 'duty' (kirtavya) ! By doing your duty, you get YOGA effortlessly. Only that person can do his duty diligently, who has OBJECT of doing good for all and give pleasure to them. We have got everything for doing our duty only, and that is sufficient enough. No human has got less material than what is required for doing his duty.

It is very easy to perform your duty (dharma) ! We all are independent and capable for the same. Yes..due to pramaad and laziness; due to habit of doing non-duty, due to desire for result always subsisting in us, the performance of duty appears difficult but actually nothing is more easy than doing duty (following dharma) !! When you have sense of 'doership' in you, then ONLY your eye gets shifted to the duty of others. As soon as your eye turns towards duty of others, you derelict from your duty. Hence it is not your duty to look at duty of others.

When you do your duty diligently then irrespective of the fact as to whether you believe in God or not, there comes a 'sattwik pleasure' in your 'antahkarana' (innersenses- mind/intellect/ego) ! THIS happiness/pleasure is representative of your liberation.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Understanding the self and prakurthi- Then desire for Dharmic pleasures (Ex: Bed with wife only on days permitted/time permitted, ways permitted, and no other woman in mind/ thought)- Then Dharma way of life (Withdrawing all senses after certain age), - Moksha all of us know.
B.S

--------------------------------------------------

Dear Gita-Member,

The sole purpose of Dharma is to reach God / divine or
as close as possible to Him. On this way, you will find your
health to improve, your dreams go from horrible to very-nice,
your painful/negative past will be gone, you will become confident,
you will let go your ego and anger and you will get "godly" communication
and spiritual experiences.

good Luck, Bye.
Notesh Otes

--------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
"Arto jijnasur artharthi,
Jnani ca bharatarshabhaha. "
( Gitaji 7, 16)
Which means,
'Four kinds of people worship Me,
The distressed, inquisitive, who want prosperity and who are looking for the knowledge of the absolute. )
Any one of the these four kinds worships the Lord for whatever the reason may be.
Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha are all allowed in family life as long as the intention is the pursuit of Krishna Consciousness.
But The only Dharma as per Lord Krishna is clearly described in Gita,
" Sarva Dharman Parityajya,
Mam ekam saranam vrajah,
Aham tva sarva papebhyo,
Moksham isyami ma suchaha. "
( Gitaji 18, 66)
Which means,
' Abandon every other Dharma,
Just surrender unto me, I will relieve you of all the sins. Do not fear. '

As per Lord Krishna, there is only one Dharma, that is the ' total Surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord'.
Let us practice the Devotional Service in the form of Chanting and advance spiritually.
' Kali yuge Smaranan Mukti '
Chanting is the way to go in this Kali Yuga.
Thank you.
Prasad. A. Iragavarapu, MD

-----------------------------------------
Namaskaar Swami Ji et all;
This is the big Q, and i suggest - conscious that one cannevr completely get it right:

In short, considering the welfare of all others and not placing one's self first, such action done to the best of ones own capability with the least of cost to others, is dharma executed at the highest level.

in Sanskrit - Nishkaam
raviji

--------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Very good question ! Such Qs provide Divine momentum to Satsanga.

Kaam, Artha, Dharma and Moksha - these are NOT 'purusharthas' actually. These four are 'desires' in every human being. Out of these 4 desires , 2 viz Kaam(Bhog- desire to consume worldly pleasures) and Artha (desire to possess/own worldly riches) are subject matter of PRARABDHA (Fate/Destiny- dependent upon your past Karmas. Your current /immediate Karmas have no role here) ! Other 2 viz Dharma (Righteousness/Duty) and Moksha (Liberation/Freedom/Salvation/Emancipation) are subject matter of PURUSHARTHA ( Current/Immediate Karmas) !

In fulfillment of desire of Kaam and Artha...Prarabdha is required ! But in fulfillment of desire for Dharma and Moksha ..Purushartha is required. It is another matter that most of us use Purushartha (current karmas) for Kaam and Artha and leave Dharma and Moksha over the Prarandha...a stupidity !!!

Coming to Dharma ..what is Dharma? Dharma is the name of 2 things:

1 To do 'paropkaar' - deeds for welfare of others like charity, putting 'piaoos' (water supplies for general public ) , feeding poor etc etc

2 Based on your Varna/ashram doing diligently your duty as prescribed by the Scriptures !!

That raises the Q as to what is DUTY? Duty is that which you CAN do and which you SHOULD do. Only that Karma which you do for welfare/good of others is duty. The deed which is done for self (or for persons to whom you consider as mine) is NOT duty...it is merely a karma (which binds) !

Whether you call as 'Dharma' or as 'DUTY' - both words mean exactly the same.

The aforsaid is the exact scope of Dharma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------
Dharma is righteousness [as you ask] as said by Krishna in verses 7 & 8 of chapter 4 of Gita [Gita Madhurya page 51 ].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.
-------------------------------------------------

Living for Liberation and, liberation within living

Dharma cannot be isolated from its three partners - Artha, Kaama and Moksha. If we don't understand one, it is imperative that the rest is not understood either. Therefore, let us address the cluster together. Just like any other existential cluster, this also is dual in its direction - one in living and one for liberation. The fellow suffers as one spreads ones legs on both the paths that seem to run in divergent and opposite directions! On one hand, one craves to live and at the same time, one hates any miseries!! One completely misses the fact that the perceived living and perceived liberation from miseries fall into mutually alien domains!!! Balancing the two to unify oneself within is spirituality; and, Dharma-Artha-Kaama-Moksha is one fool-proof path to attain THAT UNION.

Often, it is ill-conceived that liberation is to quit living! The very notion that "those are two distinct dominions" is ignorance. Living and liberation are inseparable as ever. Na hi kashchit kshaNamapi jaatu tishThati akarmakrit nothing in this universe that is manifested can ever transcend the realms of The Action, living in other words. One has to attain THE ETERNITY amongst the relatively mortal existence only ... anityaih dravyaih praaptavaanasti nityam ... there is no other choice! Therefore, one should learn living in the right perspective in order to attain Liberation within the realms of living ... iha chedavedeet atha satyam asti ... if you can't realize while living in spite having all these faculties within and access to the world around, how can you imagine to achieve that when you lack both?! USE your living to attain THE TRUTH ... Annam praaNam chakshuh shotram mano vaachamiti ... Meditate with your faculties within and the world around to appreciate THE TRUTH in ALL ... tapasaa brahma vijignyaasaswa ...

LIVING: Dharma -> Artha -> Kaama -> Moksha :: Tendencies -> dependencies -> Desire -> Relief

In living, by default, one is driven by Dharma which is nothing but the inherent tendencies that keep churning out needs and dependencies (Artha) from within. The needs directly or indirectly threaten the existence or survival and hence create perturbations or restlessness within. The desires (Kaama) arise from these needs in an attempt to moderate/eliminate such restlessness in order to bring in a balance. It is the desires that can drive the rest of the system - mind and body - to seek associations in the world around to bring some potential relief (Moksha) within. One DOES attain freedom within whenever one's desires are met however momentary the state may remain. The corruption here is that the seed (tendencies, Dharma) is never removed! The restlessness manifests again and again ... desires continue ... toiling of body and mind continues which otherwise is perceived as misery! Thus, misery becomes an integral part of living. Therefore, seeking liberation within such living becomes paradoxical.

LIBERATION: Kaama -> Artha -> Dharma -> Moksha :: Desire -> Meaning -> Root cause -> Eliminate

The spiritual process is just to experiment a reversal in the natural phenomenon whichever one is considered! So is the case with Dharma and its partners. Instead of being driven by the inherent tendencies, ride the desires (Kaama) to their roots. Note that you do not have access to anything other than the desires. Therefore catch the desires and ride them toward their roots. Drive yourself to unearth the meaning (Artha) for the desires that you seem to be infested with. The meaning will show you the deeper shades of the desires that is hidden within one's innate nature (Dharma) in the sediments of one's sub-conscious! Question the very need of this innate nature to its core. Only then you probably can gather courage to drop your very nature (Dharma) and respond to Lord KrishNa's call ... Sarva dharmaan parityajya maamekam sharaNam vraja ... and seek THE ONE where there can't be a second. When there is no second, how can there be any threat to THE PEACE thereupon?! When there is no threat of any kind, how can there be dependence??!! FRREDOM (Moksha) is the ONLY POSSIBILITY then.

That is THE FREEDOM (Moksha) that is often referred to as LIBERATION wherein there is no room for any needs, even need for Moksha!!! The very need for Moksha takes retirement as there is no threat of bondage there ... Sadaa me samattvam na muktirna bandham ... Chidaananda roopah shivo'ham shivo'ham ... living continues at perfect balance (PEACE) as ever ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Swayam and Aham - Need Guidance

2012-01-30T19:14:00.000-08:00

Respected Sadhaks

RAM RAM JI

I have been doing efforts to study Swamiji's Sadhan aur Sadhya.

In the article on Svayam and Aham, Swamiji has referred to two verses from Gitaji -

NAIV KINCHIT KROMITI YUKTAH MANYET TATVA VIT..... and ........AHANKAR VIMYDHAATMA KARTA AHAMITI MANYATE

in both the verses it is the "acceptance" only of the sadhak that makes him a Tatvavid or a Vimoodhatma.

I now request the divine sadhaks to please reflect on the point and guide me the steps so that I could 'learn the path' of accepting that there is no i and whatever is being done through me by the nature is not done by me....!

Regards

JAI SHRI RAM

Man mohan Batra

-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

I always find Qs of Batraji as very relevant and focussed.

There are many methods of becoming 'Nirahankaar/ Nirmam' ( no me and no mine state- no doership and no I state) ! 'Acceptance' is key in all methods. (I will revert in next posting on 'Acceptance' ) !

Before that, few things to state about other statements in your brief and focussed Q. You have used 2 terms viz 'tattwavit' and 'vimudhatma' !

Because of union of sentient (Chetan/Sat/ Self ) and inert (Jad/ Asat/ Other) ..'ME' or 'I' arises.

Now this 'I' is mixture of sentient as well as inert. Hence 'I' can be used for sentient (Svaroop) as well as inert (Aham- mixture of sentient and inert). Now take the statement - 'I am doer' . In this statement , the eye is towards inert (Aham/your unnatural assumed form/jad ) . But in the statement: "I am not doer' , the eye is towards sentient (svaroop/ your natural actual form/chetan ). Now if your eye is towards inert, in other words, if you are "accepting" your svaroop (form) to be AHAM (the mixture of sentient and inert- one who accepts I am of the world, world is mine or one who 'accepts' - I am body ) ...you are "VIMUDHATMA" ! But if your eye is towards sentient (chetan/ aham-less form / svaroop- 'Acceptance' - I am not of this world, this world is not mine/ I am God's, only God is mine, nothing else is mine) ...You are 'TATTWAVIT' !!!

Hence it is a matter of just changing your glance (your drishti) , your focus ...sounds too simple? But that is what and how it is. Realisation is the most simple thing. This is confirmed by Ramcharitmanas:

SANKAR SAHAJ SVAROOP SAMHAARA !
LAAGI SAMADHI AKHAND APAARA !!

Lord Shiva simply threw a cursory glance at His Svaroop (gathered) and instantly got immersed in His natural absorption state (Samadhi here is 'sahaj' - natural. There is no 'getting up' - vyutthaan) !

Oh..there are many methods explained by Param Shraddhey Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for benefit of humanity at large. Next is: Move from 'doing' (karana) to 'happening' (hona) and then from 'happening' to 'IS' (Hai) ! The same two things so beautifully picked by you viz, NAIV KINCHIT KAROMITI (Tattwavit)- "I am not doer" and KARTAHAMITI MANYATE (Vimudhatma)-- "I am doer" are there too the basis and of course 'acceptance' is soul.

To be contd..!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------
Start from right now NOT to accept yourself the DOER of anything [action or thought or whatever] and see tattva has already been in your experience without any efforts as said by Swamijee [kuchh karanese sansaarkee praapti hotee hai aur kuchh na karanese paramaatmaakee praapti hotee hai. By doing something, you attain the world, and by not doing anything (not accepting doership) you attain Paramatma. see in maanavamaatreake kalyaanakew liye page 113].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

--------------------------------------------------

Ignorance in ownership: Ahankaara vimooDhaatmaa aham kartaa iti manyate

IDENTIFICATION is the key for all activities in this world. One can interact with the world ONLY when the objects of interest are identified to start with. Also, one need to identify oneself before forging ahead in interacting with the others identified. Thus, an identity is essential for every participant in any activity to actualize the very activity in place. The subjective identity embedded in each participant thrives hard to safe-guard and promote the same perpetually.

The identity for a subject often grows out of proportion in the subject's perception as if the rest are under its command. The over-blown subjective identity often takes over the activity in its belief and assumes an ownership within on the very activity. Thus a sense of doership is generated within the subject. As this sense of ownership grows in one's perception, it is percolated into one's beliefs within which in turn is projected into one's action instinctively!!! The unilaterally projected authority or ownership projected on the world is often interpreted as Ahamkaara or ego.

This unilateral authoritarianism is so deluding that the fellow within who is freely projecting oneself as such remains absolutely clueless. That is the power of satisfaction generated by the notions "my work", "my knowledge" and "my joy". The only way the "I" can ever experience satisfaction in its existential domain is in conjunction with "MINE"! The only thing the deluded "I" cannot fathom is that the mechanism for dissatisfaction is also the same!!

Interestingly, each participant in the activity would, most probably, have nurtured very similar egotic ownership on the same activity generating a conflict of interest amongst themselves! Each ego remains alien to the co-participants since such an authority never considered a consensus from others. The violation of individual sovereignty triggers a chain of emotional reactions amongst the participants. This conflict may remain dormant and left unnoticed ... or, it can grow into gruesome wars between the parties involved. But, the fact remains simple ... ALL MISERIES - SMALL OR BIG - ARE ALWAYS ROOTED IN SUCH CONFLICTS! AND, SUCH CONFLICTS ARE INEVITABLE AS FAR AS IDENTITIES ARE PURSUED!!

The next verse gains importance ONLY IF any participant would like to eliminate such miseries. Of course, all the beings would like to remove the miseries altogether. But, almost always, everyone would jump to conclude that the root cause for their own miseries is "others being not reasonable"! What most would miss it altogether is that (1) Root cause for all miseries really is rooted within rather than in others! (2) It is impossible to address any possible causes in others!! and, (3) Correction in others does not help one unless correction is adapted within!!! Clarity in understanding one's ignorance and close appreciation of one's aspirations is fundamental to raise the next verse. Rather, such clarity and appreciation would automatically lead one into the realms of the next verse.

Till then, one remains captive within one or the other identity which forces one to take ownership voluntarily or involuntarily. Ego remains a natural instinct to an individual as far as the individual thrives to sustain its individuality VimooDhataa is that instinct ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

(to be contd.)

Active Awareness: Naiva kinchit karomi iti yuktah tattvavit manyet

Only a person of subtle and truthful appreciation of reality can truly realize that one is never a doer ever. THE TRUTH is always in the very activity wherein the ownership is being collected. One need not turn to any other activity. In fact, turning to any other activity may induce additional ignorance as one's ignorance in prior activities gets ignored and will blissfully settle into the sediments of one's subconscious. The paradigm shift required is never in the activity. All activities being part of the Cosmic Action remain as pure and truthful as ever - Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi! Paradigm shift that is really needed is in the perceiver. Offset the perceiver within to a witness position to understand the very activity in an objective sense. Objective clarity is the only antidote to the subjective ignorance.

There three gates through which we collect ownership and project ego - action (Jaagrata), thought (Swapna) and experience (Sushupti). Therefore, we ought to invoke the corresponding gate keepers (Vishwa, Taijasa and Praagnya) there to stop any potential corruption in current activities (Yagnya) and purge all collected garbage through the same gates (Daana). The corresponding paths of cleansing are popularly identified as Karma Yoga, Gnyaana Yoga and Bhakti Yoga.

The three dominions of action, thought and experience are inter-linked intricately. Though one could tend to believe in one of the three based on one's predisposition in life, one has to keep in mind that one can never empty one dominion if the other two are open to collect garbage. The garbage collected in the other two automatically spreads into the dominion of practice as such. THE ONLY WAY TO CLEANSE is to cleanse all the three simultaneously - act right, understand right and experience right. Perfection in harmony amongst the three is essential to keep balance amongst the three as well as to positively quarantine them off the garbage. TRUE GNYAANA implies truthful action (Karma Yoga) and experience (Bhakti Yoga). So are TRUE BBHAKTI and TRUE YOGA. In their perfection they are synonymous. In a way, all the three jump into action naturally even though one tends in one direction AS FAR AS THE SEEKER IS TRUTHFUL. But active appreciation of all the three is fool-proof as it does not allow any room for ignorance anywhere.

Again, the execution is bimodal with one's active attentiveness at all the three gates. Divine invocation at the gates helps as it makes the gate spiritually permeable - only objective appreciation (knowledge in other words) is let in; and only subjective beliefs (ignorance in other words) are let out. You can vest yourselves to become active motors to catalyze the process of purging ignorance (Mano Naasha) and objective awareness (Aatma Bodha).

A seeker has to truthfully empower the spiritual trinity of Yoga, Gnyaana and Bhakti over the existential triad of Kartrittva, Gnyaatrittva and Bhoktrittva to enhance self awareness (Aatma Bodha) and ego reduction (Mano Naasha) continuously toward their respective asymptotic boundaries of Infinity (PoorNa) and Zero (Shoonya).

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

PS: Following Chakra depicts the discussions above. It may be useful for meditation from this perspective.
===============================================

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[gita-talk] Re: What is the Exact Scope of Dharma?

2012-01-29T20:01:00.000-08:00

I have been following this site for a while and I must congratulate all those concerned in doin a fantastic job
My question is that as per our shastras all endeavours of human pursuit can be classified as our 4 Purusharthas as Artha Kama Dharma and Moksha
I want some clarity on the exact scope of Dharma Is it religousity spirituality or righteousness.
Please throw light

Humbly
Vineeta Malpani
----------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Whatever karma we do, we should always keep Dharma (duty) in view. Every action should be for welfare of 'others' and for all , it should not be alone for your own happiness ! Duty is never a subject matter of worry. It is a subject matter of 'vichaar' (careful consideration). Actually, you derive real happiness when you diligently do your duty, that quality/kind of happiness is not generated in enjoying worldly bhogs/pleasures. Even birds and animals get worldly pleasures ! One has opprtunity of doing duty, therefore, should consider oneself forunate.

In the deed, where you renounce your own pleasure and impart pleasure to others; where there is benefit of both you and others...that deed is 'duty' (kirtavya) ! By doing your duty, you get YOGA effortlessly. Only that person can do his duty diligently, who has OBJECT of doing good for all and give pleasure to them. We have got everything for doing our duty only, and that is sufficient enough. No human has got less material than what is required for doing his duty.

It is very easy to perform your duty (dharma) ! We all are independent and capable for the same. Yes..due to pramaad and laziness; due to habit of doing non-duty, due to desire for result always subsisting in us, the performance of duty appears difficult but actually nothing is more easy than doing duty (following dharma) !! When you have sense of 'doership' in you, then ONLY your eye gets shifted to the duty of others. As soon as your eye turns towards duty of others, you derelict from your duty. Hence it is not your duty to look at duty of others.

When you do your duty diligently then irrespective of the fact as to whether you believe in God or not, there comes a 'sattwik pleasure' in your 'antahkarana' (innersenses- mind/intellect/ego) ! THIS happiness/pleasure is representative of your liberation.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Understanding the self and prakurthi- Then desire for Dharmic pleasures (Ex: Bed with wife only on days permitted/time permitted, ways permitted, and no other woman in mind/ thought)- Then Dharma way of life (Withdrawing all senses after certain age), - Moksha all of us know.
B.S

--------------------------------------------------

Dear Gita-Member,

The sole purpose of Dharma is to reach God / divine or
as close as possible to Him. On this way, you will find your
health to improve, your dreams go from horrible to very-nice,
your painful/negative past will be gone, you will become confident,
you will let go your ego and anger and you will get "godly" communication
and spiritual experiences.

good Luck, Bye.
Notesh Otes

--------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
"Arto jijnasur artharthi,
Jnani ca bharatarshabhaha. "
( Gitaji 7, 16)
Which means,
'Four kinds of people worship Me,
The distressed, inquisitive, who want prosperity and who are looking for the knowledge of the absolute. )
Any one of the these four kinds worships the Lord for whatever the reason may be.
Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha are all allowed in family life as long as the intention is the pursuit of Krishna Consciousness.
But The only Dharma as per Lord Krishna is clearly described in Gita,
" Sarva Dharman Parityajya,
Mam ekam saranam vrajah,
Aham tva sarva papebhyo,
Moksham isyami ma suchaha. "
( Gitaji 18, 66)
Which means,
' Abandon every other Dharma,
Just surrender unto me, I will relieve you of all the sins. Do not fear. '

As per Lord Krishna, there is only one Dharma, that is the ' total Surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord'.
Let us practice the Devotional Service in the form of Chanting and advance spiritually.
' Kali yuge Smaranan Mukti '
Chanting is the way to go in this Kali Yuga.
Thank you.
Prasad. A. Iragavarapu, MD

-----------------------------------------
Namaskaar Swami Ji et all;
This is the big Q, and i suggest - conscious that one cannevr completely get it right:

In short, considering the welfare of all others and not placing one's self first, such action done to the best of ones own capability with the least of cost to others, is dharma executed at the highest level.

in Sanskrit - Nishkaam
raviji

--------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Very good question ! Such Qs provide Divine momentum to Satsanga.

Kaam, Artha, Dharma and Moksha - these are NOT 'purusharthas' actually. These four are 'desires' in every human being. Out of these 4 desires , 2 viz Kaam(Bhog- desire to consume worldly pleasures) and Artha (desire to possess/own worldly riches) are subject matter of PRARABDHA (Fate/Destiny- dependent upon your past Karmas. Your current /immediate Karmas have no role here) ! Other 2 viz Dharma (Righteousness/Duty) and Moksha (Liberation/Freedom/Salvation/Emancipation) are subject matter of PURUSHARTHA ( Current/Immediate Karmas) !

In fulfillment of desire of Kaam and Artha...Prarabdha is required ! But in fulfillment of desire for Dharma and Moksha ..Purushartha is required. It is another matter that most of us use Purushartha (current karmas) for Kaam and Artha and leave Dharma and Moksha over the Prarandha...a stupidity !!!

Coming to Dharma ..what is Dharma? Dharma is the name of 2 things:

1 To do 'paropkaar' - deeds for welfare of others like charity, putting 'piaoos' (water supplies for general public ) , feeding poor etc etc

2 Based on your Varna/ashram doing diligently your duty as prescribed by the Scriptures !!

That raises the Q as to what is DUTY? Duty is that which you CAN do and which you SHOULD do. Only that Karma which you do for welfare/good of others is duty. The deed which is done for self (or for persons to whom you consider as mine) is NOT duty...it is merely a karma (which binds) !

Whether you call as 'Dharma' or as 'DUTY' - both words mean exactly the same.

The aforsaid is the exact scope of Dharma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------
Dharma is righteousness [as you ask] as said by Krishna in verses 7 & 8 of chapter 4 of Gita [Gita Madhurya page 51 ].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.
-------------------------------------------------

Living for Liberation and, liberation within living

Dharma cannot be isolated from its three partners - Artha, Kaama and Moksha. If we don't understand one, it is imperative that the rest is not understood either. Therefore, let us address the cluster together. Just like any other existential cluster, this also is dual in its direction - one in living and one for liberation. The fellow suffers as one spreads ones legs on both the paths that seem to run in divergent and opposite directions! On one hand, one craves to live and at the same time, one hates any miseries!! One completely misses the fact that the perceived living and perceived liberation from miseries fall into mutually alien domains!!! Balancing the two to unify oneself within is spirituality; and, Dharma-Artha-Kaama-Moksha is one fool-proof path to attain THAT UNION.

Often, it is ill-conceived that liberation is to quit living! The very notion that "those are two distinct dominions" is ignorance. Living and liberation are inseparable as ever. Na hi kashchit kshaNamapi jaatu tishThati akarmakrit nothing in this universe that is manifested can ever transcend the realms of The Action, living in other words. One has to attain THE ETERNITY amongst the relatively mortal existence only ... anityaih dravyaih praaptavaanasti nityam ... there is no other choice! Therefore, one should learn living in the right perspective in order to attain Liberation within the realms of living ... iha chedavedeet atha satyam asti ... if you can't realize while living in spite having all these faculties within and access to the world around, how can you imagine to achieve that when you lack both?! USE your living to attain THE TRUTH ... Annam praaNam chakshuh shotram mano vaachamiti ... Meditate with your faculties within and the world around to appreciate THE TRUTH in ALL ... tapasaa brahma vijignyaasaswa ...

LIVING: Dharma -> Artha -> Kaama -> Moksha :: Tendencies -> dependencies -> Desire -> Relief

In living, by default, one is driven by Dharma which is nothing but the inherent tendencies that keep churning out needs and dependencies (Artha) from within. The needs directly or indirectly threaten the existence or survival and hence create perturbations or restlessness within. The desires (Kaama) arise from these needs in an attempt to moderate/eliminate such restlessness in order to bring in a balance. It is the desires that can drive the rest of the system - mind and body - to seek associations in the world around to bring some potential relief (Moksha) within. One DOES attain freedom within whenever one's desires are met however momentary the state may remain. The corruption here is that the seed (tendencies, Dharma) is never removed! The restlessness manifests again and again ... desires continue ... toiling of body and mind continues which otherwise is perceived as misery! Thus, misery becomes an integral part of living. Therefore, seeking liberation within such living becomes paradoxical.

LIBERATION: Kaama -> Artha -> Dharma -> Moksha :: Desire -> Meaning -> Root cause -> Eliminate

The spiritual process is just to experiment a reversal in the natural phenomenon whichever one is considered! So is the case with Dharma and its partners. Instead of being driven by the inherent tendencies, ride the desires (Kaama) to their roots. Note that you do not have access to anything other than the desires. Therefore catch the desires and ride them toward their roots. Drive yourself to unearth the meaning (Artha) for the desires that you seem to be infested with. The meaning will show you the deeper shades of the desires that is hidden within one's innate nature (Dharma) in the sediments of one's sub-conscious! Question the very need of this innate nature to its core. Only then you probably can gather courage to drop your very nature (Dharma) and respond to Lord KrishNa's call ... Sarva dharmaan parityajya maamekam sharaNam vraja ... and seek THE ONE where there can't be a second. When there is no second, how can there be any threat to THE PEACE thereupon?! When there is no threat of any kind, how can there be dependence??!! FRREDOM (Moksha) is the ONLY POSSIBILITY then.

That is THE FREEDOM (Moksha) that is often referred to as LIBERATION wherein there is no room for any needs, even need for Moksha!!! The very need for Moksha takes retirement as there is no threat of bondage there ... Sadaa me samattvam na muktirna bandham ... Chidaananda roopah shivo'ham shivo'ham ... living continues at perfect balance (PEACE) as ever ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Protecting Sacred Mother Cow (Gau Mata)

2012-01-28T20:06:00.000-08:00

COW PROTECTION CAN ONLY BE SECURED BY CULTIVATING UNIVERSAL FRIENDLINESS I.E. AHIMSA

M. K. Gandhi
-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Actually to give pain to any creature/Jeeva is Scripture prohibited action. Would we like that any person should beat us or kill us? If we do not like that, then we should not inflict pains on any other creature or kill them. The essence of Dharma is- Do not do that thing to others, which you do not like if somebody does that to you ! Do not destroy or aid or abet in destruction of any Jeeva. This is sin, this is grave injustice. Just As you like your life , all others like their lives. Violence of any nature to anybody is sin, what to talk of killing animals and eating them away.

Among all animals, Mother Cow is supreme in doing good to humanity. Therefore slaughtering of cow is a very heinous and grave sin.Just by air of cow , the human body becomes pure and pious. Those who are afflicted with serious and even uncurable diseases, if they caress body of cow, morning and evening, serve them with affection, they get cured of their diseases. Try it yourself. You will see the result. There are huge benefits by protecting cows. If you protect cows, cows will protect you. Therefore, cow slaughtering is a 'ghor maha paap' (henious and one of the greatest sins). The result of violence is very bad...very very bad. Therefore we should protect cows. If the cows are not protected, India will suffer immensely. There will be great calamities in the country. There will be terror and huge damage. If you protect cows, the country will remain safe.

( Excerpts from Pravachans of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj)

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------------------------------
COW HIDE termed simply LEATHER is found in every day items.
Make sure it is NOT leather when you buy...
Footwear
Handbag
Purse
Wallet
Belt
Watch-strap
Jacket
Gloves
Garments
Car seats, steering wheel cover, etc. (Italian leather is imported cow hide)
Cricket ball
Furniture upholstery
Suitcase
Straps

Beauty Without Cruelty - India

BWC is a way of life which causes no creature of land, sea or air terror, torture or death

----------------------------------------------------------

Cows are being injected with a drug, to draw out more milk. Everyone knows of this, then you must also know that due to these injections the Cows are getting severely diabetic, and later the cow is turned over to the sellers or left alone to die and thrown in such places where the birds that feast on them also get diabetic. It is my sincere request to you all to pay more attention in these areas. As even if cow slaughter stops then Cow eaters can either stop eating or they can Import from Argentina Australia UK (Top 3 Cow Traders) , but those owners who brutally killing Cow by injecting, for their own selfishness gains are killing nature as well.

Aslam

----------------------------------------------------------
The only real/practical way to reduce cows' suffering is to stop dairy consumption. "
I did not understand this logic
rgds
vinay

In response to which, sanjay jain wrote:

Hi Vinay,

Growing up in London, it occurred to me that the UK meat and dairy industries are closely linked. But I thought this was not the case in India, until I looked at starting a dairy operation in Jaipur. While doing the business plan it was obvious that the only way to make a profit was to sell uneconomical animals, and in fact that is exactly what happens.

By consuming "modern" dairy products we are responsible for the cruel practices that animals have to live through and their ultimate deaths. The logic is simple, stop consuming dairy products and we stop our participation/ contribution. The more people that stop consuming dairy products the less demand there will be, and over time the industry will disappear.

People often say, if we don't consume dairy products all the animals will be slaughtered. The answer is that the existing animals will be slaughtered anyway, gradual slow down in dairy demand will not hasten existing animals' deaths. Over time less cows will exist, but dairy animals are domesticated animals that exist only because of man. In the past there was a symbiotic relationship, today it's purely an exploitative one.

I have no problem with anyone consuming dairy if they can ensure the proper lifelong humane treatment of animals. The Hare Krishna ISKCON group has reached similar conclusions, their website has recently been updated so I can't find the links, but here are two posts that explains their position:

Regards
Sanjay

-------------------------------------

The Jain community like the Hindu community is coming to grips with the violence in modern dairy practices. It is hard for people to question practices that their religious texts promote or at least condone.

Manish, a Jain scholar was reluctant to accept the vegan principles at first. He is not a practicing vegan but now accepts the vegan logic.

Animal welfare groups all over the world are realizing that the dairy industry is cruel. The environmental community is seeing the local pollution and climate change impact of animal agriculture and the nutrition community is demonstrating that animal products are not only unnecessary, but bad for health when consumed without moderation (moderation being very little).
Sanjay

-------------------------------------------------

Please watch this video on Youtube "Horrors in India's Dairy Industry" Please take Action immediately and arrest this type of arrogant people.

Mathys

-------------------------------------------
gau mata ---we call cows as mata .they have to be protected even krishna bhagwan had so much of association with cows .all of us not as a religious approach as humans also protect cows --jai shri krishna

Chaman Nigam
--------------------------------------------------

im having problems with the link to sign petition
Please let me know what a westerner can do to help protect the cows in India As a long time vegan, sadhak, who does not wear of carry leather except tragically my shoes, i find it completely unnaceptable that India slaughters animals at all, and has tanning factories that run spill into the Ganges so any activism here i would glady partake of and spread around.

Sophia

-------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
The best way to fight the cow slaughter is to prove the goodness of
cow and saying our Nation sacred Animal. How? The cow if remains next
to paralytic person he gets cured. If a person moves along with cow
for about 6 hours a day, his intellect level improves. The breath
out of cow nose kills air infection. Cow dung kills all infection if
used with water on floor. Cow urine if consumed along with milk,
honey, curd kills infection in stomach. So many other goodness is
stated in Ayurveda and vedas. This has to brought to court
scientifically, and then direction taken.
B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------------------------
Concern raised by Priya Salvi is quite valid as to how to make cow rearing economicall sustainable.
I would suggest if cow rearing is not sustainable individually, then each village should form a co-operative whereby the co-operative society runs the gaushala. The cow dung and urine has multiple benefits and economic use. The money generated should be used for village welfare and not for personal gains.
Cooperative societies can ensure that happens. Villages can invite sadhus and sages to spread awareness about spiritual benefits of cow. Rather if you have a cooperative gaushala, sadhus would come on their own. Cow doesn't need huge amount of investment for its upkeep. It can survive on the leftovers grass and leaves. It can also take leftover food.
If possible try it in your village by taking help of panchayat, if cow rearing is difficult individually.

For metro cities, people have started living in big societies. Some are spread across 20-30 acres with lot of open space. Each housing society if they have 100 Sq.mtr. space can keep a cow. If societies don't have space then they should pool with other societies and keep cows in nearby Temples.

Its unfortunate that, these days people are making big Temples in cities and keep no space for cows (a living temple for 300 crore gods & godesses).

regds,
rakesh

-------------------------------------------------

i am sorry for differing,

cow protection is possible, when people give attention to the products made from cow-dung and gomutra.

then killer will find it more profiting to keep it , then to kill it.

gau mata ki jai
ashok gupta
delhi

------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhaks,
In an earlier mail on Stopping Cow Slaughter, I did sign and forward the following petition but wondering why only against one officer ? we need to start a strong petition for saving cows , immediate shut down of all slaughter houses that kills cows, ..........
Please forward me if any one of our Gita group sadhak has already started this kind of petition.
Love,
Sadhna

---------------------------------------------------

Respected Sir/MADAM
Sacrifice of cow is illegal as per law of Bengal and order of Supreme
Court. Yet lacs of cows can be seen openly taken for sacrifice. Even attempt to commit a crime is punishable.
We hereby request you to kindly see that all cows are safe in your
GOOD RULE. If your government also do not implement law and order and let them continue to commit crime then it may be held responsible for abetment of crime.
Hope the government would take adequate steps to stop this crime.
Thanking You.
P.K.Singhal

-----------------------------------------------------

Recent News -

PIL against Deonar abattoir

A division bench of Chief Justice Mohit Shah and Justice Roshan Dalvi was hearing a PIL filed by Viniyog Pariwar Trust against the slaughter of cattle at Deonar abattoir and the export of meat. The petition said in 1983, the BMC banned the export of meat. "BMC has no authority to use the slaughter house for exporters," said Viniyog's advocate Praful Shah, adding, the abattoir had been running into losses of Rs 116 crore for a decade now. He said under the civic laws, it was clear that the Deonar abattoir was established only to cater to the "need of the locals and not foreigners and exports". "Cattle are important wealth of the nation. We should not destroy it," said Shah, pointing that Article 51 (g) of the Constitution stated that there should be compassion for all living creatures. "Cattle are being slaughtered unnecessarily for export."

But BMC advocate Geeta Joglekar said considering the poor financial status, on March 20, 1985, it was decided not to implement the 1983 resolution, banning exports. She said slaughter was carried out between 11pm and 6am for local use, while the entire day, the machines lay idle. So, she said, exporters were allowed to use them. "We only provide space and charge double from exporters," she added.

URL: http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=TOIM/2012/01/06&PageLabel=9&EntityId=Ar00901&ViewMode=HTML

-----------------------------------------------------

Why should the Centre finance abattoir plan?....Rosy Sequeira

Mumbai: The Bombay High Court on Friday questioned why the Centre must finance the expansion of Deonar abattoir when informed by the BMC that it proposed to seek the Union governmentï¿½s help.

Chief Justice Mohit Shah and Justice Roshan Dalvi were hearing a PIL filed by Viniyog Pariwar Trust against the slaughter of cattle for their meat. When the court was informed that the civic body is running losses, it called for the records.Figuresfor 2010-2011showed that while the BMCï¿½s expenditure was Rs 23.88 crore annually it earned an income of Rs 15.42 crore. ï¿½The statement shows that your expenditure is more than your income. You are hardly getting Rs 4 crore annually,ï¿½ said Justice Shah.

BMC advocate Geeta Joglekar said 74% of the expenditure goes towards consumption charges, including paying salaries of 473 employees. These were covered under establishment charges of Rs 17.70 crore. She said the exporters were paying Rs 45 (per animal) as ï¿½slaughter chargeï¿½ compared to Rs 20 charged for local consumption. The judges, however, opined that the exporters should be charged much higher. Joglekar said a proposal to revise the rates for exporters will be put up before the civic body after elections.

In view of the losses, the judges questioned how the BMC planned to go ahead with the abattoir's expansion. Joglekar said the lion's share would come from the Centre and remaining sum would be contributed by the civic body. The proposal is still at the planning stage,she said.

The judges observed that the exporters should contribute towards the expansion. All India Meat and Livestock Association's advocate Zubin Kamdin said it would be "unviable" for his clients.

Viniyogï's advocate Praful Shah alleged that the BMC was in league with the exporters and sought the "expansion at the cost of public money." He said civic byelaws specifically state that "consumption is only for Mumbai and not foreigners." However, Joglekar said the abattoir needed renovation as it is in a dilapidated condition.

The judges have directed the BMC to file an affidavit stating how it proposed to spend for renovation and expansion and also how it would increase the income from meat exporters.

URL: http://epaper.timesofindia.com/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=TOINEW&BaseHref=TOIM/2012/01/07&PageLabel=6&EntityId=Ar00601&ViewMode=HTML

--------------------------------------------------------

50,000 Cows Slaughtered DAILY. 4 crore each year !

LET US ALL UNITE AND COME FORWARD TO PREVENT THE ATROCITIES ON GO- MATA (Mother Cow).

Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari

"Ahimsa (non violence) is the attribute of the soul, and, therefore, to be practiced by everybody in all the affairs of life. If it cannot be practiced in all departments, it has no practical value."

- Mahatma Gandhi

----------------------------------------------------------

Without the protection of Cows INDIA'S INDEPENDENCE will
remain INCOMPLETE ! Without Cows mankind cannot even conceive of attaining
Salvation or Benediction. Dandi Swami

----------------------------------------------------------

PROTECTING THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS IS THE GREATEST LAW !

It is time to step up to our duty to protect the rights of cows and all animals !

"SARVA BHOOTE HITEH RATAAH says Gita

Meera Das, Ram Ram

=====================================================

Ram Ram

Please listen to Swamijiâs messages in English pertaining to Go-Mata (Indian Cow) Protection -
http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Audio/Audio-English-Cow-Cow-Slaughter/Audio_Cow-Cow-Slaughter.htm

PLEASE DO NOT FORGET TO SEND THE LETTERS LISTED BELOW TO THE PM, CM ETC. DO NOT DELAY.

ALSO MUST DEFINITELY WATCH
Gau Raksha - Importance of Protecting Cows Shri Rajiv Dixit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJY1Uufs9uY

Rajivji has done an excellent analysis with facts and figures of the draining of the wealth from our Country due to killing of Bulls and Cows - Gau Dhan. He has suggested ways that this can be prevented. It is in everyone's best interest to save the cow and bull population that are responsible for 60% of all the transportation within and between cities and villages across Bharat. The numbers are worth listening to and spreading around the country.

PLEASE MUST watch the following and pass on to others -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOe4WA6IHD8

Ram Ram

--------------------------------

Dear Go Mata Sewaks,

If u really n sincerely want to protect the cows then support people n farmers like us who r keen on having cows but r compelled by the Â so called economic world that the cows not giving milk r nonproductive in the so called existing farming pattern n having cow is economically a non viable activity. I had earlier responded to such an email from u n had requested for guidance on maintaining cows. at present I have total of 4 female n 1 male Â local breed of cattle n I have them exclusively for cowdung n cow urine. Milk has not been my priority. But I really want to understand how to sustain this activity n guidance from eminent people like u. If u support I am willing to have many more cows at our farm. the pitiable situation is that in the village where I stay only 2-3 households including ours have cows n I am also struggling as to how can I be able to maintain them. I eagerly await to hear from uÂ

regards

Priya Salvi

9324027494
9096077259

------------------------------------------------

A quick look at the use,benefits and preparation of Panchagavya -the gift from the Holy Cow

http://onlyhinduism.blogspot.com/2011/10/panchagavya-preparation-uses-of-holy.html

Only Hinduism

---------------------------------------------
Respected Members of Gita Talk,

To protect Gau Mata, our team from Kolkata have filed a 370 page
petition / case yesterday on 10th Oct, for which the hearing is again
on 13th October at 10 am at Kolkata High Court - Room No. 8. Request
all the members from Kolkata of this group to please to be present
during the case to add more weightage and support for the cause.

Bakri-IDD is on 7to 9th November 2011, and we want the implementation
and execution of the Judgement and Order dated 20/08/1982 passed in CR
No. 709 (W) of 1971 (Kedarnath Brahmachari and 26 other petitioners)
and several other cases won in favour of animal protection.

Please find below the summary of points for the case.

Cause Title: West Bengal Animal Slaughter Control Act (WBASC Act) 1950

Key points covered in the case: -

· Preservation of animal power and increase the supply of
milk, manure, medicines, gobar gas etc

· Implementation of the West Bengal Animal Slaughter Control
Act by State of West Bengal

Under Section 4, it totally prohibits slaughter of cows, calves, bulls
, bullocks, male and female buffaloes (hereinafter called the `said
animals'), unless and until certificate that the animal is fit for
slaughter is obtained.

Under section 5, the act prohibits slaughter of aforesaid animals in
a place other than a place prescribed for slaughtering.

o Section 5 of above is also mentioned in

§ Section 428 of Kolkata Municipal Corporation Act 1980

§ Section 196 of Howrah Municipal Corporation Act 1980

§ Section 278 of West Bengal Municipal Corporation Act, 1993

· From the aforesaid statutory provisions it is clear that on the
Bakri-IDD day or any other day the aforesaid animals cannot be
slaughtered in any place, field, road, buildings or houses etc.

· Inspite of the requests for taking preventive measure to
prevent commission of cognizable offence of cow slaughter on
Bakri-IDD, the police authorities and high officials of the WB, did
not take any steps which resulted into the largest number of cow
slaughter on 17th -19th November 2010, in utter violation of the
orders of the Hon'ble High Court.

· Not only culprits, but the police officials who turned a blind
eye to the complaints should be arrested and brought to books.

Regards,

Rajesh Kishanpuria

---------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

O Caracass eaters...! It is not that Gau Mata is weak. Her every organ is deliberately made for welfare of humanity..but so what? It is not that we, as humans, are powerful. Where does that power go when urine stops? It is not that an ultimate wrong "gets done" to Holy Cow. But we, caracass eaters, do wrong . It is not that there is no one who is watching us. It is not that there is no justice. It is not that our cruelty is before some blind Governor. There is one law..Law of Karma. That we don't pay attention to it is our ignorance !

We have simply got an opportunity of behaving per our free will , of course in a limited manner, for a limited time. Important is as to how we perform in an examination hall. What do we deserve to be in future? Where do we stand? What needs to be done with reference to us? What is our score, having received a fair ground, a fair platform and ...a free hand ?

That we are not ashamed of our conduct is our individual personality and score. That we get tempted by tongue is our weakness. That we consider ourselves to be powerful is our false pride. That we try to justify inflicting pains on Mother Cow is our folly. That we eat the flesh of other creatures is our animalhood, inspite of being humans. That we still consider ourselves to be humans is our own misconception. That we relish flesh of cow is our own ingratitude. IF we eat/abet in cow slaughtering/flesh eating ...we simply don't deserve to be called a human at all...and that is it.

Where is the question of our ever becoming humans again, in that case? Only a fool can live in such paradise.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------

Sri Radha KRishna Vijayate Param!
The government has finally surrendered to Dandi Swami ji's demands. Dandi
Swamiji's had been on fast since Sept 29th to save the cow grazing fields in 27
VILLAGES, from encroachment by MLAs and Ministers, many of whom have
shareholding in the butcheries and slaughterhouses in UP and Haryana. Yesterday
the Financial Commissioner has issued the letters to all the DCs of the state to
get evacuated all the cow grazing fields from illegal encroachments. The ADC
kurukshetra gave juice to swami ji and assured him of immediate action, the same
letters were issued to all the sarpanches of all the villages in kurukshetra.
But I had earlier in the day warned swami ji, to not believe them unless they
provide you with copies and also ensure that in future such thing will not be
repeated by anyone, for which I had provided a RTI application form, for
personal data collection, from each village. Government, also did assure this.
Thank Krishna, he is always at the beck and call of his COWS!

Dandi Swamiji said that without the protection of Cows INDIA'S INDEPENDENCE will
remain INCOMPLETE ! Without Cows mankind cannot even conceive of attaining
Salvation or Benediction.

Irvinder Verma

---------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari Ram Ram
If anyone has any contacts with MEDIA in UP and HARYANA or know of any Swamis
and Mahants or any visible authority please inform them to help put pressure on
the government regarding this issue. PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO HELP.

Ram Ram

====================================================

Proforma letters-kindly inspire all to write letters to PM, CM etc and try to
save lacs of cows =cattle wealth

It would be better if you draft in your own language
It would be better if you write in Bengali
It would be better if you write to PM, HM, Law Minister in Hindi
It would be better if you try to take appointment & meet them

From:

To,
Prime Minister fax no 01123016857, 9545, email: manmohan@sansad.nic.in
Home minister Fax: 23093750, 23092763, email: websitemhaweb@nic.in
Chief Minister - Fax no: 22145480/ 22143033/ 22143528, Email: cm-wb@nic.in
Com of Police 2214-5060 email :- cp@kolkatapolice.gov.in
DGP, Fax No. 2214-5486 Email ID-dgp_westbengal@gmail.com
Chief Secy 22144328, chiefsec@wb.gov.in
Home Secy - 2214-3001, sechome@wb.gov.in

PERFORMA 1

Sub: Save Cattle wealth of the Nation.
Respected Sir/MADAM
Sacrifice of cow is illegal as per law of Bengal and order of Supreme
Court. Yet lacs of cows can be seen openly taken for sacrifice. Even attempt to
commit a crime is punishable.
We hereby request you to kindly see that all cows are safe in your
GOOD RULE. If your government also do not implement law and order and let them
continue to commit crime then it may be held responsible for abetment of crime.
Hope you would take adequate steps to stop this crime. Thanking You.

PERFORMA2

Sub: Implement Law and Order.
We Hindu consider cow to be our mother and also worship them as our
god. According toWest Bengal Animal Slaughter Control Act 1950, slaughtering of
cow is illegal but still cow is being slaughtered, breaking the law. Bakrid is
on 7th November and on that day numerous cow may be slaughtered, if you do not
take adequate steps to stop it.
I will be grateful to you if you make tight security or make sure that
these cows are not killed in the name of religion. It is your duty to make sure
that the order of Supreme Court is followed. We will be highly obliged if you do
the needful in order to maintain the sentiment of Hindu. Thanking You

PERFORMA 3

Sub: Save Cattle wealth Save the Nation.
This is to bring to your kind attention that the law and order of the
State had been openly being violated under past Govt's rule. I, as a responsible
citizen of India would like to put light on the fact that COW progeny is not
only worshipped by majority community but also it is the pillar of agriculture
as well as a major source of energy in the immediate future and thus should be
conserved and protected on priority basis.
Hence I would be highly obliged if you take strict measures to curb
down the cattle markets, which are put up purposely for sacrifice on the
occasion of Bakrid and save the cattle wealth. Thanking you.

PERFORMA 4

Sub: Reminder of your duty.
According to the Order of the Supreme Court and Law of Bengal, it is
illegal to sacrifice cow on the occasion of Bakrid. Not only are the cows
worshipped by the majority community but also considered as most useful animal
by minorities. So there is no reason for the Government to allow the cattle
markets that sells cows for sacrifice purpose, few days prior to Bakrid. It is
unfortunate that the people in power are not doing their duty properly, towards
one and all citizens.
Hence we request you to take actions against the people who openly
take cows for sacrifice, as per law of West Bengal. Thanking You.

Performa -5

It is your duty to ensure that the law and order which has been made,
is properly followed. Sacrifice of cow is illegal but then also cows are
slaughtered on Bakri-id in houses creating lot of pollution. You are powerful
LADY. You can stop this crime. Kindly take adequate steps to stop this crime.

Performa -6

You had given a slogan MAA , MATI AND MANUSH. This slogan is behind
your victory. We have voted YOU to power, expecting that you shall change the
misrule which was continuing in left rule. In spite of clear cut law and order,
lacs of cows are sacrificed openly in West Bengal. It is a matter of shame for
administration, because if the administration can't stop this open crime, it
should think whether they deserve the power or not?

Performa -7

Maa- means mother cow, which gives milk, which is the base of life during
everyone's childhood. Mati means our land, which produces wheat, rice, fruits,
vegetables etc on which we survive. And Manush means the public of India.
Majority of Manush worship cow as mother of universe. Majority of Minority
community also is law abiding, hence they also want that cows should be saved.
There are only 1 or 2 percent in both minority and majority community, who don't
respect law and order and who insist of sacrifice of cows for economical reason.
You Can stop this.

Performa -8

It is our humble request to you to save our mother - COW, from being slaughtered
and sacrificed. Even the law of Bengal states that sacrifice of cow is illegal.
In spite of that we see people brutally taking cows from cattle market, down the
streets, for sacrifice. It is unfortunate to see this scene. Kindly advertise
that sacrifice of cow is illegal. Stop movement of cows.Stop cattle markets,
flush out cows tied for sacrifice purpose. Stop buying and selling of cows 15
days before Bakrid. Give instructions to POLICE to Stop all illegal activity.
Thanking you.

Proforma-9 from organizations

We, members of --------------------------------------organization wish to bring
to your notice that sacrifice of cow is illegal as per law of Bengal and orders
of High court of Kolkata. Hope you are also aware of it. These laws if
implemented shall ultimately benefit one and all of the state, because micro and
macro pollution created by such killing affects adversely. Pollution of water
can be seen by naked eyes. It stinks like hell during Bakrid days. On one side
the High court holds it illegal. And on other side the govt. it self organizes
Cattle Market at Khidderpore, where only cows are sold for sacrifice purpose? Is
it lawful? We know you are powerful and kind hearted lady. You would not allow
this crime to take place in your State. Thanks in advance in anticipation that
you shall stop the crime.

Proforma 10

Lacs of cows are sacrificed on Bakrid. Greater no of cows are smuggled to
Bangladesh. Who looses? Muslims looses their wealth as cows worth crores and
crores are killed creating lot of pollution. Their Health is endangered as beef
is injurious to health. National looses its cattle wealth. Majority community
looses faith in Administration and Judiciary. No one gains. Then why this is
continuing? How this was started? It was started by the British to divide the
two communities and to make India poor and slave. When Our learned politicians,
policy makers, top police officers, top administrative officers, top judicial
authorities would realize this fact and stop it. We request almighty to give
WISDOM to all of them so that this great loss to one and all stops and all
citizens' starts getting pure milk and food products.
Do you think it is just and equitable to allow this crime to continue?
Is it beneficial for any community? Is it not damaging the communal harmony? Is
it not breaking the Laws? Is it not making the minority and law implementing
authority also guilty? You are intelligent enough. You can save all of us.

From Satyagrah
==============================================================

Respected Members of Gita Talk,

To protect Gau Mata, our team from Kolkata have filed a 370 page
petition / case yesterday on 10th Oct, for which the hearing is again
on 13th October at 10 am at Kolkata High Court - Room No. 8. Request
all the members from Kolkata of this group to please to be present
during the case to add more weightage and support for the cause.

Bakri-IDD is on 7to 9th November 2011, and we want the implementation
and execution of the Judgement and Order dated 20/08/1982 passed in CR
No. 709 (W) of 1971 (Kedarnath Brahmachari and 26 other petitioners)
and several other cases won in favour of animal protection.

Please find below the summary of points for the case.

Cause Title: West Bengal Animal Slaughter Control Act (WBASC Act) 1950

Key points covered in the case: -

· Preservation of animal power and increase the supply of
milk, manure, medicines, gobar gas etc

· Implementation of the West Bengal Animal Slaughter Control
Act by State of West Bengal

Under Section 4, it totally prohibits slaughter of cows, calves, bulls
, bullocks, male and female buffaloes (hereinafter called the `said
animals'), unless and until certificate that the animal is fit for
slaughter is obtained.

Under section 5, the act prohibits slaughter of aforesaid animals in
a place other than a place prescribed for slaughtering.

o Section 5 of above is also mentioned in

§ Section 428 of Kolkata Municipal Corporation Act 1980

§ Section 196 of Howrah Municipal Corporation Act 1980

§ Section 278 of West Bengal Municipal Corporation Act, 1993

· From the aforesaid statutory provisions it is clear that on the
Bakri-IDD day or any other day the aforesaid animals cannot be
slaughtered in any place, field, road, buildings or houses etc.

· Inspite of the requests for taking preventive measure to
prevent commission of cognizable offence of cow slaughter on
Bakri-IDD, the police authorities and high officials of the WB, did
not take any steps which resulted into the largest number of cow
slaughter on 17th -19th November 2010, in utter violation of the
orders of the Hon'ble High Court.

· Not only culprits, but the police officials who turned a blind
eye to the complaints should be arrested and brought to books.

Regards,

Rajesh Kishanpuria

-------------------------------------------------

11 of the 14 largest slaughter houses in India are owned by HINDUS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqz0l0J819c&feature=related

From Uttam Maheshwari's lectures

---------------------------------------------
Shree Hari Ram Ram

PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO by Shri Rajiv Dixit, it clearly gives facts and figures
that shows that KILLING A COW IS LIKE KILLING THE GOOSE THAT LAYS THE GOLDEN
EGGS -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_0Je1E561Y&feature=share

Some points in the message -
THOSE WHO WILL OWN COWS WILL BECOME "KARODPATI" (millionnaires) IN 4 YEARS. Cow
urine and dung based products can generate over 2 lacs in revenues per year,
whereas yearly expense will be under Rs. 20,000. Learn, Spread, be an
Advocate to Stop the Killing of Cows, Save Cows!

THOSE WHO HAVE CONTACTS IN VILLAGES OR KNOW OF WAYS to cascade information on
the financial benefits of even the non-milk producing cows, TO COW OWNERS,
PLEASE KINDLY SHARE BEFORE THEY SELL THE COWS TO BUTCHERS AND SLAUGHTER HOUSES.
Please share your thoughts of what can be done to spread the word. We URGE you
to take a few minutes to share your ideas. Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------

thank you for sharing the links - I was fascinated to hear Uttam Maheshwari say
-
A SURVEY OF THE LACS OF FARMERS DEEP IN DEBT THAT HAVE COMMITTED SUICIDE, IT WAS
FOUND THAT NONE OF THEM OWNED COWS AND BULLS. very interesting ! this should
send a message to the remaining farmers who are thinking of selling their cows
to slaughter-houses.

Sarita S

-------------------------------------------------------

If you do not melt even upon seeing this, then you are heartless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb8lZyRkoGg&feature=share

---------------------------------------------------

PLEASE STOP USING LEATHER. If you know companies that are purchasing leather
products from Indian Slaughter houses, please boycott them. The animals are
treated most brutally and in the most inhumane manner.
They are made to fast for four days prior to being slaughtered, 200 degree
centigrade hot steam is sprayed on them, their tied legs are yanked and they are
turned upside down, their stomach is injected with air bloating them to maximum
pressure (all while alive) and then while alive their skin is removed, to
maintain the softness of the leather.

Please listen to shri Uttam Maheshwari's lecture on this -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqz0l0J819c&feature=related (around 1 hr 25
minutes)

He has also said that Hindus, we are our own worst enemies. Of the 14 major
slaughter houses, 11 are owned by Hindus.

-------------------------------------------

Know the physical and spiritual benefits of GomÅ«tra (Urine of Bharatiya cow)!

GomÅ«tra mean urine of Bharatiya cow! It has great importance in religious
rituals as well as for health.Â Thus it is beneficial at physical and spiritual
level. Sanatan Sanstha has now produced GomÅ«tra concentrate which is made from
the urine of native cows after recognising the importance of GomÅ«tra in day to
day life. Spiritual experiences of a seeker Mrs. Ichalkaranjikar after using the
GomÅ«traÂ are given below.

After GomÅ«tra was applied on hair before having bath, there were no hair locks
and hair loss also stopped.

âDuring 2006 Gurupourá¹imÄ, two days before the event I was experiencing
distress. On the Gurupourá¹imÄ day, while doing sÄ"vÄ my bhÄv was awakening.
I wanted to do a lot of sÄ"vÄ. In that hurry, I put hair pins in my hair and
tied them tightly. My hair were long. I didnât comb my hair properly for two
days. On the third day when I loosened my hair to comb, they had locked.Â In
order to remove the tangles, I applied oil on hair, moisten my hair but nothing
helped to untangle it.

Â

During illness though we do not comb hair for many days, it is easy to untangle
the hair. In this case I had not combed only for two days but the hair were
entangled. I was aware that as per science we should not cut our hair. However
there was no other option left but to cut my hair. At that time I had to cut my
15 inches long hair. Later, within 3 years my hair grew again like before. I
began going out for sÄ"vÄ again. But again my hair started began to entangle
and I began losing hair. There were a lot of black spots on my face and I began
losing hair. I had thoughts that how I can go in society and do sÄ"vÄ so I
began praying to God with bhÄv. Â Next day when I went to have shower, I felt
like applying GomÅ«tra on hair. After applying GomÅ«tra, there was a miracle!
Since that day, there were no knotting of hair and hair loss completely
stopped.â â" Mrs. Ichalkaranjikar.

dharma karma

----------------------------------------------------------

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

2nd October, 2011, Sunday
Ashwin Shukla Panchami, Ravivar, Vikram Samvat 2068

HAPPY MAHATMA GANDHI JAYANTI !

Cow is the Mother of the World (Gaavo Vishwasya Maatarah)

Respectfully in Remembrance of the Lord

In is my sincere prayer to all saintly people and Saints that the way that the
cows are being killed mercilessly nowadays, thoughtlessly without any feeling or
caring, such acts were not happening like this during the rule of the Muslims
and the Britishers. Now we all must unite and make full effort to stop these
gruesome acts. To do this work, the time is right now and it is also possible
to make it happen. What to tell you all about the glories and significance of
cow (gai), because you are yourself capable of telling this to others. If
every spiritual and religious leader wants, he can inspire thousands of people
in the work of caring and protecting cows. You can all unite together and
expose the present government and quickly establish laws that can protect the
entire breed of cows from the executors (slaughterers). If the community of
saintly people (sadhus) accomplish this sacred work which is the foundation of
Hindu Dharma, then this will be constructive and beneficial for the entire
world. Now the time for voting is nearing. During this opportune time, you
all become united !

Think about passing the proposal that every Indian Citizen, this time leaving
all other issues aside, only give your vote to that leader or team that will
give in writing their promise to stop the slaughter of cows and give assurance
that immediately upon being elected, he personally and his team first and the
foremost will work to ban the killing of cows in the entire country.

The original, extra-ordinary, kind breed of cows is in a state of being
destroyed. In such a state, if while the time remains, if we do not become
alert and cautious then how horrific will be the condition for the men of our
country and ourselves? To even gauge the situation is difficult. You think
about this point that at present times the condition that is arising from
disregarding the cows, the end result of it will simply be devastating. If
even in the independent India such a heinous sin such as killing of cows cannot
be stopped, then it is such a surprising thing and such a sad thing!
Remembering the dead, become immersed in this good work that we will be the
first to get killed as a cow. All of you can be doing the work of God by
spreading this awareness. What virtuous deeds can be done by which all will
attain benediction! There is no greater "Dharma" than this.

Simply by beholding, touching, being in the presence, hearing Cow bellowing ,
and by serving her, one can attain salvation, one can experience happiness, one
can experience good feelings and purification of the inner-senses. With the
ghee (clarified butter), milk, curd (yoghurt), butter, and buttermilk the body
becomes strong and it becomes free of disease. From cow's urine and cow-dung,
"panchgavya" and various different herbal fertilizers can be made and put to use
and grains, vegetables, and fruits can be saved from the poisons of chemical
fertilizers. The dust that flies off the hooves of cows which is called
"godhooli vela" is also holy; It is considered favorable for weddings and
other auspicious events. From birth to the last breath in every religious
ritual there is great significance of cow's urine and cow-dung. The extent to
which you and I may share about the glories and significance of cow, that much
is not enough. The surprising thing is that in spite of knowing everything,
why is there procrastination and delay for the protection of cows from our side?
By protecting the cows, along with material advances, financial, relationship,
societal, ethical, cultural, and many different types of developments and
advances are possible. But by the killing of cows, there is nothing that is
seen besides destruction. Therefore even now if we awaken then we can stop the
killing of cows from all ways and means, and save mankind from the upcoming
destruction.

By serving the cows, protecting them, creating shelters for them and protecting
the grazing grounds, the growth of the entire world is possible. From the
wealth that is generated now-a-days from killing cows, exporting of cow meat,
the intellect becomes degenerated and corrupt. Therefore by using the sinful
money generated from killing cows, this alleged development is itself the reason
for our destruction. This is a very solemn concerning topic.

Lastly, it is my humble prayer to all spiritual organization that now instantly
you all, along with the people, come together and kindly make a firm and
determined resolve to stop the killing of cows, then my, yours and the entire
world's well-being is certain. In this itself it the real protection of Dharma
and protection of Dharma is itself the protection of all of us.

Read, Educate and Disseminate Forging Forward !

Placed forward by Swami Ramsukhdasji (from "Kalyaan" Year 1978, Ank 4)
====================================Due to many difficult words, for accurate
message, please read the original Hindi message by Swamiji. Sadhaks who are
fluent in both english and hindi, please kindly review and help refine message
for accuracy in translation.
====================================

FOR MESSAGE IN HINDI PLEASE VISIT
Date : 2nd October, 2011 Gaavo Vishwa Maatarah

http://www.satcharcha.blogspot.com/

***********************************
IF YOU HAVE BENEFITED FROM THESE MESSAGES, KINDLY FORWARD TO OTHERS.

Ram Ram

ENGLISH: www.swamiramsukhdasji.net
HINDI : www.swamiramsukhdasji.org
---------------------------------------------------

World VEGETARIAN WEEK

OCT 1-7

WORLD FARM ANIMAL DAY

OCT 2ND

BEAUTY WITHOUT CRUELTY
--------------------------------------------------

English Translation :
Dear Narendra Bhaai!
Still more efforts towards Stopping Cow Slaughter are to be done through you.
Please consider this reply given in Gita-talk for it. None else other than you,
Brother!Â [at Governmental and Administrative level] will listen to this.
Indian people have started Vriddhaashramas for sending their aged parents when
they become inactive due to age and useless for rendering any service to
family,Â on the same line forÂ those cows who are unable to serve their owners
with milk etc. instead of sending them for slaughtering, Â new Cow-Aashramas be
established whose expenses will be met by imposing a certain percentage of
Cow-Tax on immense wealth accumulating in Hindu Temples.Â The remains of those
cows who die natural death in these Gau-Aashramas, may not be cremated to fire
and the bones, hide etc might be used as they used to use after slaughtering
them. Thus cows will be saved from being slaughtered and their remains won't go
waste as we also make use of Dharatee Maataa for vegetation served by Her.
Thanks and Regards,
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

----------------------------------------------------

Do you know what is the real industrial method for removing leather from cows?

cows are first bought from poor farmers with fake promises that they will be
taken good care of. They are then made to walk long distances on hot concrete
roads, and when tired, they are forced to continue walking by rubbing
chilli-powder into their eyes. If they are still unable to get up due to being
exhausted, they are beaten mercilessly, their tails are twisted so much that
they break, and torture continues until they stand up to walk.

They are carried across state borders hidden in vans (because such slaughter is
illegal), and live and conscious cows are stacked badly, and remain standing in
that condition while they travel.

Worst awaits at slaughterhouses. First boiling water is poured over them so that
the leather swells up. Then they are beaten badly with sticks so that leather
swells up further. Then, their skin is peeled off their bodies while they are
fully alive and conscious, because skin from alive cow gives softer leather. :(

The cows shiver due to pain and ultimately die. We call them mother, would we
allow this to happen to our own mother? Would we peel off our mother's skin and
use it to decorate our bodies and homes?

Please help to stop this. Atleast if you cannot, stop using leather. If you
don't believe me, search for cow-slaughter videos on youtube, uploaded by PETA
and other organizations, and see evidence for yourself.

Ram Ram
-----------------------------------------------

==============================================

====================================================

Shree Hari Ram Ram

"Ahimsa (non violence) is the attribute of the soul, and, therefore, to be
practiced by everybody in all the affairs of life. If it cannot be practiced in
all departments, it has no practical value."

- Mahatma Gandhi

-------------------------------------------

I wholeheartedly support this cause, and would like to form a group wherein we
can plan and take action. There are several active groups already working at
national level for this cause, and we can provide support to them too.

I am presently a housewife, and have working knowledge and experience of
accounts both on paper as well as softwares. I have a little knowledge of Hindu
scriptures (but at present nothing related to cows). I am good at communication
skills. I can do internet research. I can provide about 1 hour daily with
occasional leaves, or even more hours at times if need be. Please let me know
how I can be helpful.

I request all interested people to volunteer and reply here. It is not necessary
to spend a lot of time or money, whatever little time or effort or money any one
can contribute, it will only be a positive contribution and a great help. Even
if you can provide only your know how, it would be helpful.

Regarding the issue - what are the possible solutions for educating the
villagers not to sell their cows? They are given false promises that cows wont
be killed, and hence they unknowingly sell off their cows. If we can reach out
to villages and educate them about the unimaginable and intolerable pains that
cows suffer, and that it is still economically beneficial to keep a cow after it
dries up (unable to give milk), this problem can be overcome. Any suggestions?
Rashmi
Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------

Do you know what is the real industrial method for removing leather from cows?

cows are first bought from poor farmers with fake promises that they will be
taken good care of. They are then made to walk long distances on hot concrete
roads, and when tired, they are forced to continue walking by rubbing
chilli-powder into their eyes. If they are still unable to get up due to being
exhausted, they are beaten mercilessly, their tails are twisted so much that
they break, and torture continues until they stand up to walk.

They are carried across state borders hidden in vans (because such slaughter is
illegal), and live and conscious cows are stacked badly, and remain standing in
that condition while they travel.

Worst awaits at slaughterhouses. First boiling water is poured over them so that
the leather swells up. Then they are beaten badly with sticks so that leather
swells up further. Then, their skin is peeled off their bodies while they are
fully alive and conscious, because skin from alive cow gives softer leather. :(

The cows shiver due to pain and ultimately die. We call them mother, would we
allow this to happen to our own mother? Would we peel off our mother's skin and
use it to decorate our bodies and homes?

Please help to stop this. If you cannot help, atleast help by not using
leather. If you don't believe me, search for cow-slaughter videos on youtube,
uploaded by PETA and other organizations, and see evidence for yourself.

Ram Ram
----------------------------------------------------

English Translation :
Dear Narendra Bhaai!
Still more efforts towards Stopping Cow Slaughter are to be done through you.
Please consider this reply given in Gita-talk for it. None else other than you,
Brother! [at Governmental and Administrative level] will listen to this.
Indian people have started Vriddhaashramas for sending their aged parents when
they become inactive due to age and useless for rendering any service to family,
on the same line for those cows who are unable to serve their owners with milk
etc. instead of sending them for slaughtering, new Cow-Aashramas be established
whose expenses will be met by imposing a certain percentage of Cow-Tax on
immense wealth accumulating in Hindu Temples. The remains of those cows who die
natural death in these Gau-Aashramas, may not be cremated to fire and the bones,
hide etc might be used as they used to use after slaughtering them. Thus cows
will be saved from being slaughtered and their remains won't go waste as we also
make use of Dharatee Maataa for vegetation served by Her.
Thanks and Regards,
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

----------------------------------------------------------
A Bill, seeking seven-year jail term for cow slaughter or even
transporting the animal for that purpose, was passed unopposed in
Gujarat Assembly, with opposition Congress extending support to it. Now that is
some news. Thank u Narendra Modi. Hare Krishna :)

THANK YOU ! AND LONG LIVE GUJARAT ! LET US PRAY THAT ALL OTHER STATES and
WORLD at large ... FOLLOW SUIT !
Check out -
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mother-CowA-Blessing-To-Mankind/190323780999562

Ram Ram

===========================================

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Srinivasanji and other Sadhaks, Any thoughts and ideas on how the world
community can come together on protecting Cows (Gau Mata)?

Saadhaka ji / others any thoughts on how owners of cows can be made to never
sell their cows?

Also watch the video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxRHuxDHGfo
uttam maheshwari COW THEORY (in Hindi)
It will inspire to work toward protecting Cows (gau Mata)

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------

Jai Shree Ram Ram,

We are a small group of people in Kolkata working towards protecting cows. We
are buying cows from various slaughter houses and have build a Gowshala housing
more than 40 cows, calves and bulls. We do weekly meetings and generate ideas
which can be implemented and also publish a newsletter. All the members of this
group residing in Kolkata can email me with your brief profile, for joining the
meetings and Gowseva tasks.

We are trying to create awareness through internet using facebook, blogs
(protectcows.blogspot.com), and publishing articles. Also there is a legal team
who are filing cases in High Court demanding the implementation of the Supreme
Court Orders dated - 16th November 1994 (AIR 1995 - Pg no. 464) and High Court
Orders dated 12th November 2010.
The brief of the court order is as below: -

It is illegal to buy - sell cows, transfer cows and slaughter cows on Bakrid
(this year Bakrid is on 7th November 2011). The police and administration is
required to stop this act, and punish them with 6 months imprisonment or Rs.
1000 fine or both. Cow Slaughter is the sole reason for communal disharmony and
preventing secularism.

Some collective thoughts to protect cows: -

- Create awareness by printing posters and putting up on the streets, where
film posters are being pasted which will attract maximum attention.
- Some publications are not taking advertisements pertaining to stopping cow
slaughter, as it being a sensitive issue and can cause riots, newspaper inserts
with the detailed information on joining the group.
- Sending emails and letters from our association to various publications,
including the URDU ones.
- Generating funds by putting up "Donation Boxes" in various public places like
vegetarian restaurants, sweet shops, milk shops, saree shops etc.
- Educating people about the law, and asking support from the
Temple pujaris and authorities,
- Sweets shops & milk dealers (Who has direct co-relation with their
business)
- Animal Husbandry / Welfare ministry
- All political parties especially BJP & RSS
- National Dairy Development Board (NDDB)
Industrialists.
- Sales and promotion of various useful products produced by cows like
agarbatti (prepared by cow dung), medicines prepared by cow urine apart from
milk and milk related products like ghee etc.
Regards,
Rajesh K

------------------------------------------------------
"Gaavo Vishvasya Maatarah" i.e. Cow is the mother of the entire world. What is
the spiritual base of this point? that I do not know; but tactically speaking I
have no doubt about this. A cow, just like it feeds it's own calf, it avails
itself of any other child, just like its own, therefore she is the mother of the
entire World. Iooked at this picture of a cow with the young child suckling her
udder, and the point that one needs to pay attention to is that the child has
taken out his sandals, and has come to the cow to drink milk. Just as when we go
to the temple we take off our sandals. The child's sentiments are that if I go
to the cow with faith and love then I will get mother's love and this everyone
accepts and believes that in this entire world, there is no one that loves as
much as a mother !

From
http://www.facebook.com/gitapress

=====================================================

It is shocking that there are laws and enforcement to protect deer,dogs and many
wild animals but the cows are slaughtered and there is no government and public
patronage to save the innocent sacred cows.
subhashtewari

------------------------------------------------------

Sadhaks please step forward and devote some time to bring about unity to create
a public opinion in favor of protecting Cows. We ask you to step up to this
divine work of God. As said by Swamiji (below) PLEASE READ. No step will be
small. If you have first hand experience / knowledge on Cow Rearing, the
challenges, opportunities, requirements, steps that can be taken, any
constraints, priorities, then please share with us! Let us know if you can
devote some time to this cause. It will be most appreciated. thank you
Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

============================================

below is a translation of a report in Amar Ujala (Hindi) dated 13th
March, 2004, Dehradun .

Enact law Banning Cow Slaughter

Rishikesh: Swami Ramsukhdasji has appealed to the Mahants and Mandaleshwars to
create favourable public opinion in favour of protection of the cow. He has said
that there is a need for enactment of stringent laws in the country banning the
slaughter of cows.

Swami Ramsukhdas said that even during the Muslim and British periods, cows were
not slaughtered mercilessly. Today there is an increase in the slaughter of
cows. He has appealed to the saints of the country to unite and come forward to
prevent the atrocities on the cow. He has asserted that due to the on going cow
slaughter, there is a danger that the Indian cows, which are extremely useful,
may soon become extinct. To propagate the usefulness of the cow amongst the
general public, a nation wide campaign is required. The mere sight, touch,
shadow, sound (breath) and service of the cow results in a pleasant feeling,
goodwill and purification of the soul. Ghee, milk, curd, butter and churned milk
obtained from the cow, makes the body healthy. The cow's urine and dung is used
to make (ayurvedic) medicines and can also protect food grains, fruits and
vegetables from chemical poisoning. By protecting the cow, we can along with
material development, achieve economic, ethical, social, moral and cultural
development. Whereas, by the slaughter of cows, save and except disaster,
nothing else can be achieved. Money earned by the slaughter of cows and export
of beef leads to the corruption of the intellect.

We call upon all our members to do whatever they can to create an awareness
amongst the public at large about the importance of the cow and to create a
favourable public opinion against cow slaughter. No step will be small.

Ram Ram

========================================

TO STOP COWS SLAUGHTER, SALE OF COWS FOR SLAUGHTERING MUST BE STOPPED. THE
SLAUGHTER HOUSES WILL CONTINUE SLAUGHTERING COWS ONLY WHEN THEY CONTINUE GETTING
COWS FOR SLAUGHTERING.
WHO CAN STOP COW SLAUGHTER? THE OWNER OF ANY COW OR COWS CAN STOP COW SLAUGHTER
BY NEVER SELLING HIS / HER COWS FOR SLAUGHTERING. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY AND IT IS
REQUIRED.
HUMBLY,
SAADHAKA.

---------------------------------------------

Thanks.
Indeed cow slaughter has to be banned. I think the world community ought to and
soon would come together for this.
Shriniwas Kashalikar

----------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

----------------------------------------------------------
Osho on Ramana Maharshi with Lakshmi cow:

Osho - Not many years ago, just a few years ago, there was a great Master,
Ramana Maharshi -- a Perfect Master, In his DARSHANS -- because he was a silent
man, would speak rarely and very few words -- each morning when he would sit for
the darshan for one hour and people would come to sit with him, a cow would also
come. The cow was so regular that no other disciple was so regular -- the cow
was just like Teertha! Regular.... It might rain, it might be summer, it might
be winter -- whatsoever! -- the cow might be ill, or healthy, whatsoever, but
the cow was bound to come at the exact time.

She would come and stand in the verandah and look inside through the window, her
head inside the window, and remain there for one hour, sometimes with open eyes
and sometimes with closed eyes. And sometimes tears flowing... it has become a
miracle!
One day the cow was very ill and could not come -- so Ramana had to go! He had
never gone to visit any other disciple, but for that poor cow he had to go. And
all the disciples said, "What are you doing, Bhagwan?" And he said, "But I have
to go. She was so regular. And I know she wants to come -- the spirit is
willing, but the flesh is weak."

And when he went, she was just sitting in the direction of his room looking at
the window from far away. She could not get up, she was dying. And when Ramana
reached, she closed her eyes and tears started flowing. She died. That cow was
the first animal in the whole history of humanity or of consciousness that was
given a farewell as is given to an enlightened person. Ramana was present there.

Somebody asked Ramana, "Is this cow going to be born as a man?"
Ramana said, "No. She will not need to be born as a man -- she has passed beyond
that. She is not going to be born at all. She has attained enlightenment."

Yes, it is possible. What to say about man? Even animals, if they are
receptive... and cows ARE very receptive. That's why in the East they have
become sacred. It is not for no reason at all -- they ARE very receptive, open.
They can grow in consciousness. NO other animal can take this jump that the cow
can take.

It was for no other reason than this that they became an essential part of all
the ashrams in the East in the old days. They created a certain atmosphere -- of
purity, innocence.

[Source - Osho Book "The Perfect Master, Vol2"]
----------------------------------------------------------

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey
=================================================

This video is being shared with you, so that you may realize that unknowingly
how we can be making a grave mistake and harming thecows. In India, people throw
polythene bags anywhere on the streets.....By seeing this video you will come to
understand everything .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlFCNJ42QBk

On our streets, or roads or in the dust bins, the polythene bags that are thrown
by the people, which contains or gets mixed up with scraps of food or with
grass, those are eaten by our Mother Cows, These are not digestible and they get
entangled in the cow's intestines, due to which the cows end up dying.
Throwing such polythene bags around, like this freely is a grave sin and the
person who does so, becomes the sharer of the sin cow killing. We do not quickly
act on virtuous deeds, but become contributors to the sin of killing cows due to
our carelessness. What will be the end result? We do not even think about that.
This human birth that we have received, then minimally we must not harm our
selves and not be careless like this, whereby our cows die or they undergo
severe pain and suffering.
Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------

'Cow's Meat is Injurious to Health

By Dirgha Raj Prasai

Currently, Nepal is sagging under the crisis. Foreigners are fueling the party
leaders with the power of money against Nepal's sovereign norms, identity and
dignified tradition. Each and every sector of this nation is in a state of deep
trouble. In the holy land where cow is regarded as the symbol of mother god is
slaughtered openly. The cows are being slaughtered and its meat eaten to fear
the Hindus. Some months ago many cows were slaughtered in Nepalgunj and its meat
sold in the market as Sukuti (a traditional meat dish).

Some days ago, there held a symposium about the prose and cons on the impact of
cow killing for meat. Some indigenous scholar argued supporting to kill cows for
meat purpose. But I expressed my opinions that it will be a crime to kill cow
and eat its meat, and in terms of health it is not considered to be healthy. In
terms of religion, almost 90% Hindus and Buddhists and some are Christians and
some are Muslims in Nepal. Some have converted into Christianity. It is my
appeal to all who follow their respective religion not to break with the
established norms and values of its long traditions and common garden. Let us
not carry suicidal works by attacking Hindu and Buddhist aspirations.

Cow is holy and venerable animal for Hindus and Buddhists. Hindu and Buddhist
scriptures view cow in form of a mother in all over the world especially-Nepal
and India. Since the Vedic period cow's body has been accepted as the spirits of
various Gods and Goddess. In many Vedic books has mentioned'Gao Biswasya
Matera' or Cow is the mother in the world for human being. It is a belief that
people who look upon cow with devotion and worship attain blessings and
enlightenment. Such conclusions were given precedence in Shrimadbhagawat
Mahapurnana (Hindu's greatest religious book) since long period Gopalas started
worshipping cow.

'The cult of Pashupati is an ancient one. The Gopals, who were cow herders and
the first ruling dynasty of Nepal, are credited with popularizing Pashupati. One
of the cow stopped giving milk. Finding this odd, the cow's owner followed it
one day. The cow went to the present site of Pashupati temple on the banks of
the Bagmati River and started giving milk. The cow herder and his friends dug up
the earth to see what was there. Suddenly a terrible flame came from the hole
and killed every one who stood close by. This was reported to a hermit named
'Ne'. He covered the flame with sand and clay and worshipped it as
Jyotirlinga'.-(Mukundaraj Aryal).

In Krishna's characterization his affection towards cow has also been presented.
Krishna has gained victory over King Indra Maharaj when they had confronted each
other during the worship of Govardan Parbat (Hill). In Ramayan- (a great Hindu
epic) King Dilip serves cow in order to bring happiness and peace in his
country, and wishing encouragement and intellect for his children. There is a
story relating to how the cow had wanted to test Dilip's devotion. The cow is
said to have turned into a lion and attacked another cow. Then the King
intervened and pleaded with the lion- 'Eat me not the cow.' The cow seeing the
King's devotion is filled with joy, and decided to show him her real form of
Goddess. Cow has been declared Nepal's national animal for it has the supreme
qualities of animals.' The cow was venerated as the mother goddess in the early
Mediterranean civilizations. The cow became important in India, first in the
Vedic period, but only as a symbol of wealth. In the Mahabharat, Bhishma-a great
religious personality and warrior, also observes that the cow acts as a
surrogate mother by providing milk to human beings for the whole life. So the
cow is regarded as the mother of the world.

I want to bring out the topic of Kamdhenu (mysterious God gifted)-'Cow'.
Parshuram Rishi's father Jamdagni Rishi had the Kamdhenu cow. A King named
Sahastraarjun had been hunting all day (time past) then in the evening time he
went to the Rishi's cottage as a guest, and he received sumptuous and enough
food. He wondered at how such a poor Rishi could provide so much food. The King
inquired and found out that it was due to Kamdhenu cow's blessings. The King
forcibly took away the cow against the Rishi's consent which was later reclaimed
by Rishi's son Parashuram, whom having broken off his meditative trance fought
against the King for the cow. This is mentioned in many Hindus scriptures. It is
mentioned in the scripture of Himwatkhanda-Nepal that milk used to flow
perpetually from the cow onto the Jyotirlinga in Pashupatinath.

Many cows are bred in Nepal's Gaushala and Mrigasthali. Yogi Narharinath a great
Hindu scholar was a great devotee of cow. Up to 2002, the Yogi had a calf to
guard in his cottage. The calf never left his site when the Yogi fell ill. After
the death of the Yogi the calf cried effusively. This incident is known to this
author in capacity of an eye witness. Later the calf used to visit the spot
where the Yogi took Samadhi (burial meditation) once a day and encircle it. It
is believed that the cow is conscious and has adequate power.

Hindus worship cow as Goddess Laxmi. Every year cow is worshipped during the
Hindu festival of Tihar. The day of worship is known as Gai Tihare Aunsi-almost
25/26 Oct. Cow is worshipped in every household. Cow's urine and gung is needed
during any auspicious occasion. It is Hindu tradition to slather the floor with
cow's dung to make it pure. The cow's dung can also kill germs; so its use is
good for health as well. The house that breeds a cow has a different décor. The
excreta of other animals as buffalo, horse, rhino produces germs while the cow's
excreta kills them. All animals do not have the same nature. Cow's excreta can
also be used as a replacement of fuel. The cow's milk, curd, ghee, urine, dung
are the five elixir-like products which are known collectively as
Panchaamrit-(five nectar)

A cow's milk is highly nutritious that its advantages are hard to explain. Those
who keep cows benefit economically in numerous ways by selling its milk and
running a dairy. Milk cleanses our body and keeps it healthy as well as
increases our intellectual power. There is no need to explain the advantages of
the products of a cow. It is written in the Artha Veda that cows' extinction
from earth would result in Sun's increase in temperature that would ultimately
destroy the planet. This shows that the earth and cow have a significant
relation. This Vedic expression can be understood in a simple meaning that the
relation between the two is conditional and dependent. Those who drink and use
cow's milk, proved brilliant and intellectual. And the buffalo's milk user has
been proved dull and blunt.

The cow's urine (Gauut) and dung can turn soil fertile and help crops to grow.
The grasses that sprout from the soil, straw, stalk, and other grains can be
used as fodder for cow which retains the traditional balance.

We need to open the discussion, which is highly necessary, if we should consume
cow's meat or not. During the Vedic period the Risihis' had observed a ritual
sacrifice of the cow which brought all curses of diseases as leprosy, Dusadhya,
Rajyayachma and Ohjayachma different kinds of diseases that led the Rishis to
their death. So the ritual was not observed. To consume the cow's meat can be
compared to consuming slow poison. The killing of cow and its sacrifice was
banned. To eat cow's meat is in reality like consuming poison. Those who are
used to eating beef have low immunity resistance, and they easily fall prey to
the diseases, which ultimately claim their lives; so all sectors ought to be
alert to this danger. In Saudi Arab to take a picture of Lord Shiva is banned,
it is prohibited. In similar manner if beef is allowed to enter the holy land of
Nepal for the consumption by tourists the government ought to impose strict
regulation against it. It is the subject of the sensitivity of this land. In the
name of secularism no one has the right to kill the aspirations of the majority
in the interest of the minority of the country.

However, it is said that the cow from the Himwatkhanda region and that from
western countries some differ considerably. There are logics that claim the
consumption of cow meat in western nation is less dangerous than what it would
be in this region. The environment and the geographical environment create such
difference between the east and western regions. British grass cannot be used
for religious rites of Hindus. If the grass sprouting in any other places than
Himwatkhanda cannot be used for Hindu rituals then there must be some difference
in terms of cow too--as some logics have pointed out. In western nation it is
said that consuming cow meat does not bring diseases, but drinking urine brings
great illness. But in Himwatkhanda it is the reverse. Drinking cow urine cures
diseases where as other animals urine can be fatal. The cow's meat eaters are
the sufferers of leprosy and death in decay.

Once there were news that people in Britain went mad and became ill after
consuming cow's meat. They had even stopped consuming cow's meat. Then, the
British Govt. banded cow's meat. In many beef eating countries banded the beef
from Britain. After that, some Britain's media reported that, so many British
left eating cows' meat. If a person suffering from arthritis consumes sheep's
meat, and if a person with pressure consumes the meat of a castrated goat then
they suffer from unnecessary thoughts. If a person eats beef that person suffers
from bad breath. There must have been an ulcer inside the stomach. To eat goat's
meat for the blood- pressure patients and to eat the sheep's meat for the
rheumatism patients will harmful. So, the beef is also becoming the causes of
the obesity and increases cholesterol level which is very dangerous for heart.
Sometimes it also spread diseases like e-coli and b-coli.

In Himwatkhanda consumption of cow's meat is taken as a curse. To eat cow's meat
is not advantageous for people in this region. There are evidences showing that
people are unable to digest the meat and that it saps the immunity power of
diseases in human body. One of the examples is that the Tamang people have been
eating the meat of dead cow. An experience shows that majority of Tamang people
who consumed meat of a dead cow have suffered from leprosy. This is not written
with any malicious intention directed against any particular group. Anyone can
judge it within the periphery of investigation. No one should deny truth and
fact. Some advocates of indigenous rights are threatening to launch rebellion
because they were not allowed to eat cow's meat. Many believe that this is not a
rebellious voice for right, but a business. Under the direction of Christians,
these people say that the cow was made the national animal of the nation in
Brahmin's interest. But, it is not truth.

The Buddhist and Hindu scriptures explicitly calls consumption of cow meat as a
form of crime. In Nepal, many cows are being killed, which is spreading terror
among the Hindus on the direction of Christian missionaries. Those seeking the
right to eat beef are also demanding the right to become ill. In our context,
since the Vedic period our tradition in worshipping cow. How has cow's
significance been increasing? A cow's urine and dung can be used as precaution
against diseases. But, the fertilizer of horses, elephants, buffalos create
diseases. Then, why shouldn't we accept this empirical fact?

New experiments are drawing facts supporting the claim that cow's meat does more
harm than benefit to health. Comparatively immunity power among people eating
beef is found to be less harmful than those who do not eat it. Westerners eat
beef. Hindu and Buddhist people do not eat cow's meat and consider eating it as
sin. If the Westerners who eat cow's meat suffer from leprosy, small pox,
measles they will not have the immunity to resist and eventually there is high
risk of fatal death. However, if the diseases are seen in Hindus, Buddhists and
people of this region who don't eat cow's meat, simple treatment will cure them.
This shows that those who do not consume beef have immunity power to resist.

So, cow's significance is huge. We must not forget that eating the cow's meat is
bad for health. The Hindu and Buddhist people worship cow as mother on the basis
of experiments and facts. So, to save the natural asset of human being, all
Nepali patriots, Nepali Army and security organs and civil society members
should be more alert in saving from killing the cows. We will continue to
worship cow. In view of such importance of cow, Nepal observes cow as its
national animal. Thus, we must all acknowledge truths and facts and serve the
cow as a mother.

----------------------------------------------------------

As bad as Cow slaughter is, it is worse to not take proper care of them, and
they are obstructing the roads, and making a nuisance of everything around them.
That should also be addressed. Perhaps these cows should be taken for proper
grazing, etc....that way they will not eat plastic or garbage or choke on the
plastic, or have the plastic cause stomach obstruction.

Durgesh Mankikar,MD
--------------------------------------------------

From Indian Government documents, the following alarming facts on the subject of
'Animal Slaughter' are presented here:
. In India, every minute on the average 28 cows are slaughtered
. In 1981, (30809) tons of meat was exported
. These days (10112) tons of cow meat is exported every year
. 18 automated slaughter houses are being operated for full 24 hours
. The number of slaughter houses has reached at a staggering number of (36050)
. Indian Government is planning to open (27) new Cow slaughter houses
. According to Milk and Animal department of Agricultural Ministry (Ref.
3-34/95-FIN), under the eighth 5-Year Plan, at 11 places in different cities,
automated slaughter houses with new modern facilities are planned to be opened,
according to Central Sector Plan, the City Municipalities, Bigger Municipalities
and other autonomous agencies will be funded for this purpose.
. According to 1994 Foreign Trade Bulletin, using these slaughter houses, Meat
worth Rs. 230 Crore is being exported.
. By the end of the century, aim is to export meat worth Rs. 1000 crore every
year.
. Once the new slaughter houses are operational, the plan is to export 35 Lac
ton of meat every year . Government is operating slaughter houses under the
'Agriculture Ministry'.
Even though the name "Animal Protection' is given to this activity but in
reality it is not animal protection but animal slaughter.
. From India, the meat is not only exported, but also is imported.
. On 16th December 1999, Mr. S. Imsan, minister of the Commerce Department of US
Government sent a letter along with list of 1429 items to A. M. Khanna Minister
of Trade in Indian Government, according to this, Indian Government is bound to
purchase these items. In this list, items nos. (1-39) and (71-581) are related
to meat of dead animals kept in refrigerators. In this spiced, fried and roasted
meat of cows, hens, goats, ducks, rabbits, pigs etc. and other preparation of
meat are also included.
. All items exported from India are subject to a thorough inspection but Indian
Government uses money as the only criteria.
In India's battle for independence in 1857, caps for bullets were made from skin
of Cows and Pigs, today the same thing have started again.
. According to constitution adopted by India on January 26, 1950, there is a
special clause #48, which says that Government has the responsibility to see
that the Cows, Calves and other animals which provide milk and used for farming
will not be killed.
. Constitution should be followed to the letter, if trade is done to import
meat, it is the responsibility of Government and every citizen of making sure to
reject the rotten and spoiled imported meats.
. Out of greed for money, if the Government does not follow the Constitution for
import and export and regarding slaughter of animals, the caring citizens must
raise their voice against it.

----------------------------------------------------------

Support "Anti Slaughter House" movement: A missed call to 0522-3095743

Are you an Animal Lover ? or
Do you say Cow as your "GauMata" ? or
Are you a Vegetarian ?

then, Support "Anti Slaughter House" movement just by giving a missed call to
toll free number 0522-3095743 (international : 011 91-522-3095743) and help us
to save the life of more than 150,000 animals proposed to be slaughtered daily
in upcoming 8 slaughterhouses in U.P. including Thousands of motherly cows.
The call gets cut automatically after one ring. After giving a call to this no.
You will receive a thanks message. Forward this to as many to make India `Free
of Slaughter Houses.'

Please do it once, call the number. no charges..

--------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

What an ingratitude a human resorts to when he/she eats the flesh of cow ! What
kind of enmity a human can possibly have with Mother Cow? What harm she has ever
done to a human? Cow nurtures humanity as abundantly and completely as one's own
mother does,... is eating the very flesh of that cow not an act of sheer
ingratitude? I am not talking yet of cruelty. Can there be a bigger
ingratitude...a greater shameless ingratitude ? She gives you milk, butter, fuel
...and you ..you return what? Is that humanity?

We are absolutely not worth being referred as 'human' , if we directly or
indirectly aid /abet viz eat the flesh of cow ! Rightly, therefore, in
Scriptures of Sanatana Dharma, cow slaughtering is clubbed under 'maha-paaps'
(the greatest possible sins) !

Cow gives the maximum to humanity. We can never repay her debt, just as we can
not repay the debt of our own mother.Drinking milk of cow is as good as drinking
milk of mother..and eating flesh of her is as bad as brutally raping your own
mother ! Why not? How not? That is why , I say : Shame on you , O Cow flesh
eaters...shame ! You should be more shameful than raping your own mother,
because mother's affection is limited to you but cow's contribution to humanity
is unlimited. Every thing from cow ...even her dung and urine, is useful to
humanity. Ever saw the pains she gets in return from humans...? ..see the video
clippings of how she gets tortured and slaughtered. For what fault of her? Very
powerful..are you? And you are dreaming that good will happen to you, while
indulging into such ghastly acts ? Forget any welfare...O Caracass
eaters...don't live in the fool's paradise. How long will you be able to do
this? THINK !

There are 3 characters. Cow, God and You, the cow flesh eater. ...in this
ghastly indulgence. It does not make any ultimate harm to the cow, for she has
become purer by eradication of sins. She is on an upward journey..from
animalhood to humanity. She does not lose ultimately. But what about you? THINK
!

As regards Paramatma : He knows that the soul of cow is immortal... And so is
yours. Where can you run away in this eternal game? He can't withdraw liberties
granted to you for a fixed period. He is watching you mis-utilising those
liberties in human birth, patiently. He is not a fool like you and you can not
be more cruel than Him. You simply can not be. He excels you in every sphere, in
every indulgence including in cruelty too. His Laws are immaculate. 100 times
more ferocity and violence will be returned most certainly. He loves to turn the
tables ! THINK !

Then remains you... the caracass eater ! What will happen to you? Ever thought ?
Will Law of Karma spare you? Cow is on upward journey ...but what about you?
What right you have got to kill fellow creatures and eat them? Which religion
permits that? None, in fact ! If you like flesh, He will make you a wild
animal..keep eating that ! Then..? Did you get human birth to get that fate?

THINK ! Quit right now..forever !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------------------------------

ALL BEINGS HATE PAIN ! THEREFORE ONE SHOULD NOT HURT OR KILL THEM !
- STRIPPING ANIMALS FOR THEIR SKIN FOR PROCESSING INTO LEATHER
- KILLING SILK MOTHS FOR SILK
- KILLING OYSTERS FOR PEARLS

AHINSA (NON-VIOLENCE) IS THE HIGHEST RELIGION!
BEAUTY WITHOUT CRUELTY
LET US PLEDGE NON VIOLENCE

BEAUTY WITHOUT CRUELTY

-----------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
As I understand, there is absolutely no need to eat meat, drink alcohol, and
smoke tobacco!!!
Religious Life requires us to be free from these unnecessary luxuries at once!
All life and Nature is Divinity requiring us to be sensible in our relationship
to them.
The idea to kill any animal just for fun of eating is horrifying, isn't it?

Cows are the most sacred of all, sustaining life like a mother does!
One look at Cow grazing in a distant field or tied to an anchor while being
milked, will bring immediate calm even to an angry man. Even to imagine such a
scene is pristine!
Cows know only to give more than we can ever give them. The least we can do is
to save them.
Saving Cows is same as saving mankind.

To me, God is the Essential Unity of Mankind and Nature functioning as ONE
System in Harmony.
When we eat animals, abuse our resources by not renewing them after required
consumption, assert our individuality, expand our nationalism beyond borders, we
go in disharmony and bring catastrophes to ourselves only.
May God bless us all to realize this Truth.
Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------------

Kaliyuga Kali resides in 5 places
Avoid those 5 u avoid Kaliyuga.
Tarunkdas
---------------------------------------------

Well I am a veggie and believe that cows should not be slaughtered. UP has
banned cow slaughter but there are places where cows are slaughtered daily. Beef
is openly sold in 5-star hotels. So are we a Hindu nation? It is doubtful.
Hari Shanker Deo

----------------------------------------------------------

MUST VIEW ....(HINDI) PLEASE !!!!

Please watch this YouTube video, a historical perspective on Banning Cow
Slaughter Houses by Rajiv Dixit an amazing orator who was becoming
internationally known figure. Ramdev Baba also used to invite him to speak at
his events. Mysteriously he died of unknown causes, in early 40s fairly
recently, a total surprise to all who were influenced by his messages. No
investigation was done.

Ek sant ka INDRA GANDHI ko shraap (by Shri Rajiv Dixit ji) !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhm7dty8NGM

Thank you !

---------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Every time we talk about Protection of Cows, the group becomes silent ! Just
like the rest of India. Not many people care, including the Gita Lovers. How
strange is this all ! Wonder what everyone's understanding of "SARVA BHOOTE
HITEH RATAAH in Gita really is?"

Every time we visit the temple we mechanically recite -

May all be happy ! May no one experience any pain and suffering! yet cannot get
any one interested to do something about protecting cows!
So Ironical ! Please give some serious thought !
A Devotee
Ram Ram
-------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Sadhaks

Many of us may be already aware of the two important things which happen to be
very close to Swamiji Maharaj's heart-- (1) Promoting the study of Gitaji, (2)
Seva / Protection of cows.

The best service to our beloved saint is to follow up his ideas. Attached thread
of messages show very alarming facts on the crucial issue of slaughter of cows.
The Indian Government authorities are totally insensitive to it and are even
increasing the slaughter houses by thousands.

Today is an important day to make a commitment for protection of cows. We have
to come up with a concrete plan of action to fight against the unrighteous and
inhumane act of the Government.

We are fortunate to have some of the brilliant minds on this Gita-talk forum,
Together, we can come up with our practical ideas to combat this issue, pls.
contribute with your suggestions as to what can be done in India and outside
India. Just few starters:

. Raising awareness at all levels of Society in the communities we reside in.

. Bring the awareness of importance issue to Hindu Temples in USA, Canada and
Europe and come-up with steps which can be taken

. E-mail to Chief Ministers of all Indian States, Prime Minister and President
of India

. Publicize the facts about this crucial issue in villages and cities in India
through TV and major newspapers.

. Have an organized nationwide protest against the cow slaughter in major cities

. Kindly respond with your ideas so that we can jointly make a plan of action
for the protection of cows.

I am sure many of us do care and would like to do something for the cause but we
are not sure as to how can we help at individual level?

Kindly do respond with your practical suggestions so that we can come up a
practical ways to combat this critical issue.

Madan Kaura

Ram Ram

----------------------------------------

NATIONAL NUTRITION WEEK SEPT 1 THRU 7 -

AMAZING NUTRITION CAN BE DERIVED BY CONSUMING FRUITS AND VEGETABLES OF MYRIAD
COLORS AND VARIETIES.
MEAT EATING IS UNHEALTHY. IT INCREASES STARVATION AMONG HUMANS, KILLS ANIMALS
AND IS HARMFUL FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. GO VEG !
- BEAUTY WITHOUT CRUELTY

---------------------------------------

i can only say , out of these two things, the second, seva / protection of cows,
i can help a little.

i , by my ngo , surubhi dairy research centre, we give free consultancy to open
a dairy, where, you can not only do service of cows in a bit way, but also
generate the very useful , milk for the country, and it is profitable also.

you can ask me for free advice, individually or collectively, if it is approved
by the moderator of this group.

ashok gupta
----------------------------------------------------------

Shree hari Ram Ram

Thank you Madanji, Sadhnaji and sadhak ji and others, YES ! to reiterate, both
Gitaji and Mother Cows are near and dear to Swamiji's heart. He has expressed
deep pain and called out incessantly for the protection of the cows, begging
people to not ever sell their cows.

Sadhaks, as Madanji has brought out, kindly share the steps we can take towards
protecting the Country's precious wealth and resource.

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

==================================

Dear Sadhika Saritaji,
real, practical question-what we can do ? I suggest the following steps-
1. Become strict vegetarian.
2. Read the product ingredients carefully. Avoid buying any product that has
animal fat, gelatin or any such ingredient that is obtained after killing the
animals.
3. Avoid giving business to non-veg restaurants and shops. Don't buy leather
garments, leather bags and leather furniture.
4. Serve beans, tofu and other vegetarian protein rich food to kids so they are
not lured to eat beef etc for body building
5. Watch Ramayan, Krishna and Mahabharat with kids on daily basis. This will
give us and our kids an ideal to follow.
6. Pray for all creation

We need to develop Love and compassion for our own self, for others and for
God's creation......to eradicate all kinds of cruelty.......

with Love,
Sadhna
----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

When in 1898, George Bernard Shaw, was told by doctors that he would die unless
he ate some meat, he said:

" My situation is a solemn one. Life is offered to me on condition of eating
BEEFSTEAKS . But death is better than cannibalism. My will contains directions
for my funeral, which will be followed not by mourning coaches, but by oxen,
sheep, flocks of poultry, and a small travelling acquarium of live fish, all
wearing white scarfs in honor of the man who PERISHED RATHER THAN eat his fellow
creatures..."

Said Al Ghazali , 12th Century MUSLIM theologian: " Eating the meat of cow
causes disease , its milk is health and its clarified butter is medicine.
Compassion eating leads to compassion living"

Shame ...Shame on you, O Non Vegetarians ...you have options in eating, and you
chose to eat animals. You have option of eating milk, butter...but you have
chosen to eat the very cow itself. For what the human birth is given to you? To
become animals again? Shame.. Shame on you all .

Remember: there is one Law which governs the Universe...Law of Karma ! The
central theme of that Law of Karma is ONE across all religions.. Deal with
others as thou wouldst thyself be dealt by !

Said Matthew: c.75 - "All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,
do even so to them: for this is the Law and the prophets" !

Said Mahabharata : " This is the sum of all true righteousness: Deal with others
as thou wouldst thyself be dealt by "

Said Hillel ha-Babli : "Whatsoever thou wouldst that men should not do to thee,
do not do to them. THIS IS THE WHOLE LAW, the rest is only explanation'"

Eat flesh , O Humans, ONLY if you like to be killed , cut into pieces, wrapped
in papers, and sold to some one so they can cook and eat your dead flesh. There
is no way to get remission from operation of Law of Karma. That day is not far.

Said Saint Kabir:

" You violently slaughter innocent animals ..And claim it to be in
keeping...With the canons of your creed. But when God places before you..The
record of your cruel deeds, What will your fate be? "

What will your fate be, O Non Vegetarians? THINK !! Will you become human again
? How can you? In the morning, in the noon, in the evening what do you do? You
eat animals. How can you become human again? If you become human, how will you
be slaughtered in the morning, in the noon and in the evening , day after day,
month after month ..? Will you not reap what you are sowing? Don't live in a
fool's paradise. Quit...right now ! Hey..ever noticed from where the egg comes
out? From which organ of hen? Is that the place from where your meal should come
out ? Is that what is liked by you ...very delicious, is it ? Hey...are you
aware that everything in this universe is edible ..? So you have choice .! Look
at the options..and look what have you selected..O Human !

Said Nizami Ganjavee ( a 12th Century Sufi Poet):

" And remember: When you hunt and kill, your punishment will depend on where you
have struck your blade- high or low ! You are not a vulture, to stoop on
carcasses, and do not , like a crow , dip your feet in others' blood. Even if
hunger has reduced to a mere skeleton- bloodless like a picture image- you will,
at least, be spared the punishments of a carcass eater"

Said Clement of Alexandria (2nd Century Christian theologian) :

" It is far better to be happy than to have our bodies act as graveyard of
animals"

Eating meat is denial of all ideals...all religions...all righteousness ..! Can
we pray to Paramatma for mercy if we ourselves have no mercy? How can we speak
of right and justice if we ourselves kill innocent animal and shed its blood?
Meat can never be obtained without injury to living creatures.

Alas ! What a wickedness to swallow flesh into our own flesh, to fatten our
greedy bodies by cramming in other bodies, to have one living creature fed by
the death of another !

O Non Vegetarians ! Quit...quit, right now ! Fall at the feet of Paramatma
..cry..say O God ..I am sorry ! What have I been doing ? Oh..shame on me ..!
Please forgive me , O Lord, for I too have been instrumental in destroying
beautiful lives to satiate my tongue. O God..forgive me ..!!!

Indeed, As water which flows through a rock is more uncorrupted than that which
runs through marshes, because it does not bring with it much mud; thus, also,
the SOUL which administers its own affairs in a body that is dry, and is not
moistened by the juices of FOREIGN FLESH , is in a more excellent condition, and
is more prompt for intellectual energy.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------

By doing a little bit at a time, how much great work can be accomplished.
When we ourselves (whether others choose to do or not) commit not to eat cow's
meat and to wear / use anything made of cow hide etc. then surely there will be
decrease in killing of cows. To curtail all right now is not possible, because
until the entire fruit has not rotted, it does not break of easily from the
tree. so be it,

IN HINDI

kahaa hai -

kan-kan karake kitanaa hee badaa kaam ho jaataa hai.
jab ham svayam [ doosare chaahe karen yaa naheen karen] na to gomaans khaayenge,
aur naa hee gocharmakee vastuyen prayog karenge to kuchh to go-hatyaamen kamee
hogee. sabako rok lenaa abhee sambhav naheen hogaa, kyonki jab tak pooraa fal
sad naheen jaataa, usakaa pedase tootanaa naheen hotaa.
astu.
savinay,
saadhaka.
============================

My friend Naresh Kadyan in india is aerious animal rights activist and head of
OIpa for Animals. He,would be good to contact for the cows. if interested let
me know
sincerely Sophia
---------------------------------
Shree Hari Ram Ram

ENGLISH TRANSLATION FROM A LECTURE: BY SWAMI RAMSUKHDASJI

Killing of Cows
It is a very sad thing that in our Country there is killing of cows going on in
a very large scale. In the last 10-12 years, the killing in Calcutta and in
Kerala, is happening on a very large scale. The minister of Kerala had said that
in the last twelve months in our state more than 14 lakh cows have been
slaughtered. He said, that we do not kill the cows from our own State; we are
slaughtering those cows that are brought here from others States ! In Mumbai,
Devanaar slaughter house, bulls are slaughtered. According to the law, only old
bulls can be killed, but in Mumbai, even youthful, young bulls are slaughtered -
we have visited that place. There is unrighteouness that is definitely going on
in this act, but along with act that unrighteousness that is going on in the
entire country.

Both food and clothing come from farming. Where farming is done using bulls and
cows, it is OK, but where machinery is used, many scholars have said that the
resources such as petroleum, gas, diesel etc. will be exhausted in approximately
two to three decades. At that time this automation will be of limited use. Right
now, coming under the sway of this machinery, you are neglecting the bulls and
cows. You are destroying them, but when this equipment will no longer be useful
and there are no more cows and bulls, then what will be the condition !

How will farming be done ? Without farming, how will you get food and clothing ?
Without food and clothing, how will life be sustained ? In Rajasthan in many
places, the bulls are used for drawing water from wells. When these bulls are
destroyed, how will you get water? It is a very great dilemma, but brothers we
are not paying attention towards such things. How much thoughtless activity
(anarth) is taking place, we are simply not aware of such things.

When we tell the younger and older children, to study, but they do not have the
same level of interest and engagement in studying, that they have in playing and
having fun. In the same way, you too are engaged in playing, not in deep study.

It is a grave mistake that right now you are not instrospecting on your future.
In the future the mistakes will be so paramount, that it will become very
difficult to put your hands around it. We have seen in the Deonar slaugher house
in Mumbai, where flocks and flocks of cattle are there at a distance, and few
men are revolting and striking against these hideous acts to not allow the bulls
to be slaughtered. The police catch the men and drive them off to other
locations. The bulls are then taken inside and slaughtered. Now people are not
standing up for the rights of these animals. Like those who are in deep slumber,
they too are sleeping. When a young girl becomes a widow, the mother worries,
because the mother sees to her future that is unknown to the young girl. Similar
misfortune is happening in our country today. It is a grave mistake. But for
earning money and for accumulation of things, and due to greed, men have become
blind and are intensely engaged in killing cows. They have no idea what they
will do with all that money ? But leaving that money behind they will die
someday, that you, I and every one else knows. What difference does it make
whether we leave 10-20 lakhs or 1 - 2 crores of rupees behind or even more
behind. When the eyes are permanently shut, there is nothing there. But today,
our attention does not go to that, we are not alert as to what the condition of
the country will be ? Even the government is not thinking about this. All we are
thinking is that simply anyhow we must get money. The greed for money has made
man so blind - there is no end in sight !

In my understanding, just as the dependency on God can lead a man to his
salvation, similarly, dependency on wealth, can lead a man to hell and trapped
in the birth and death cycles of 8.4 million different wombs. It is not the
money itself, but the dependence on money, reliance on money, greed for money,
attachment to money, fondness of money which are all the root causes of one's
downfall. There is no other mistake, no other fault, no other flaw, no other
sin, no other sorrow, no other type of envy or jealousy, no other remorse or
suffering, that is not resulting from the greed for money. All the sorrow that
exists, all is resulting from greed for money only. If one sacrifices this greed
and utilizes this money for good causes then this wealth of yours will be a
success. Your life will be a success and this world will also be relieved of its
problems. One day, all this wealth will leave you, but that will not benefit you
in your salvation. If salvation is through parting at time of death, then all
who were dying would have attained salvation, because their wealth, their
estates, their family, their power, etc. all would separate from them. But with
that, he does not get released from bondage. Freedom comes from renouncing from
within. Greed is within and the money is on the outside. The money is not
at fault. The greed for money, the love and fondness for money, the intense
longing for wanting more and more money - these tendencies are the cause of the
most senseless and improper acts.Therefore divine souls ! If you become cautious
and alert then it will be a very good thing. Within thirty years we would have
grown up and become somewhat old but what thoughts and concerns have you had for
the upcoming generations ? What will be their state of affairs ? It is
definitely something to think about. But man simply does not take a long term
view in these things ! For how long will this Government position (elected
chair) that you are holding last ? On the other hand, there is no attention at
all to thoughtless acts that will weigh heavy on you later on. But who to
explain this to? Who to share this with ?

Therefore brother, become alert ! Come to your senses and think for yourself
that what will be the state of affairs of the Country ? A lot of wealth (cows
and other cattle) has already been destroyed. If now you save it, then some can
still be saved.

Simply for the greed of money you are trading in leather, meat, cows, bulls
etc., as these can generate more income and wealth for you. Separating meat,
bones, blood, tongue, intestines, horns, nails, liver, heart, skin, etc so that
you can get more money. As the cow nears the slaughter house, it's price
increases ten folds. This killing of cows is taking place, simply for the greed
of money.

There are three gates to hell that have been described - desire, anger, and
greed. Of these, the greatest gate to hell is enjoyment of pleasures and greed
for accumulation of wealth. Therefore it is my sincere prayer that simply
awaken! What can you do ? Do not utilize leather, and one more thing, every
family member must daily keep aside a handful of food item for the protection of
the cows and donate it to a gaushala (shed that cares for and protects cows)
etc. This point has been expressed by me, contrary to my nature. If you put this
point to use, then it will be very good, and if you don't then the choice is
yours.There are many such points, you all can contemplate more on them.

FROM: LECTURE BY SWAMI RAMSUKHDASJI
Ram Ram

-------------------------------------------------

· || Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

31st March 2010, Tuesday, Vaishaka Krishna Pratipada, Budhvar
Vikram Samvat 2067, Sri Krishna Samvaat 5236

The cow is the Mother of this world. The mother that gives birth to a child
feeds milk for the initial years, but the Cow feeds us milk for the rest of our
lives. Even at time of death, curd (yoghurt) made of Cow's milk is given. She is
the mother, and grand-mother, and great grand-mother from both sides of the
family. She gives milk to all. She is the mother of this entire world. She is
the protector. At one place some thieves broke into the farm house, a cow in the
farm chased them away. Just as mother protects, likewise she protects, she
fosters, she loves, she caresses. By remembering "Gau Mata" (Mother Cow), the
inner-being (antahkaran) is purified. By petting, stroking a cow, many incurable
diseases are cured. If you think it proper, do it and see for yourself. By
protecting the cows, we are naturally protected. Nowadays, people have stopped
wanting to know about the greatness of cows. By the grace of Cows, both this
life and beyond is improved. By Mother Cow's grace, the impossible become
possible.
Cows have immense strength. If they are made happy, if they are made pleased,
then she provides all kinds of happiness and protection. If one sincerely and
honestly takes care of a cow, then for its upkeep and maintenance, there will be
no shortage of any resources. With your heart, try it and see for yourself. You
keep one-two cows in your backyard, than very easily they will be taken care
off. Nowadays, people's sentiments have really diminished regarding cows.
Mother Cows bestows all four "Dharma, Artha, Kaama, Moksha. The medicines made
from Cow urine, has significant benefits.
He who destroys cows, they will be destroyed. This incident happened during the
reign of the Britishers. The hindus and muslims were fighting, when some very
strong muslim men were returning after wrangling. They caught hold of a cow,
thinking they would kill and cook it. They asked one of the men to hold on to
the cow, while they went to get supplies for the feast. The man felt sympathy
and released the cow. The five men were later caught and ordered to be hung.
All died, except the one who had saved the cow. The cow came and stood under the
rope where he was hanging from and by the support of her horns, the man was
saved. This is a real incident.

Real incidents were shared in the "Kalyan Prakashit." There was a Brahmin from
Hissar who was going to Bikaner. He fell seriously ill on his way in Churu. He
wrote a letter to his brother, to come for his aid, as he was in a very bad
state. At night he dreamt of a Cow, who said to him that you saved my life, I
will do the same to you. He had saved a cow caught in the quick sand. On waking
up, the gentleman was completely cured.

Gather up all the greens, vegetable peels/remains, wheat / other flour etc. from
your kitchen and serve these to the cows, then there will not be a need to incur
additional expenses and the cows will be taken care off. The cows eat with great
delight Green grass, long stringy vegetables (guvaar). How will the cows be
pleased, how can she be made, these sentiments must remain within each of us.
Things can be limited, but sentiments can be unlimited. By this service you will
attain salvation. Do not sell your cows, or else it is likely they will end up
in the slaughter house. It is difficult to take care of thousands of cows in one
place, but if all householders keep one cow each, then easily the cows will be
protected.

It is a grave sin to inject a cow for milk. Such milk should not even be
consumed. Previously there were 36 crore animals, now in a count there were only
10 crore animals remaining. Do not use plastics. Plastics bags with food thrown
in streets are often swallowed by street cows and many unknowingly eat the
plastic and die. 12-13 kgs of plastic was found inside the dead cows.
Therefore use paper bags and cloth bags. If the cows die from pain and
suffering, all these manufacturers of plastic bags and everyone down the chain
who is involved will have to share in the sin. Nowadays there is great
misfortune for cows and hindus. Do not do family planning. Let the children be
born, it is a sin to do family planning. Even in the western countries there is
opposition to abortion. Whatever way cows and hindus are protected one must try,
or else it will be a great loss. The void caused by family planning and not
allowing human beings to be born, can never be filled.

From summary of discourse in hindi on October 28, 1998 at 8:30 a.m. by Swami
Ramsukhdasji.
Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Priya sadhak, prasana ke liye dhanyavad!

Swamiji Maharaj has explained "Why cow is so sacred" very beatifully
in Sadhaka Sanjivani (Ref: Gita 18-44, page 1947 in English). Some of
the points from the commentary are:

1. In the materialistic world of today, a cow is very useful. Her
milk, ghee and cow-dung add to the wealth of a nation. India being
primarily an agricultural country, bullocks are used to plough the
land. The land can also be ploughed by male-buffaloes or camels.
Buffaloes cannot work so efficiently as bullocks because the bullocks
have more sattvic strength, they can work for a longer time in the
sun compared to buffaloes. Camels cost lot more than the bullocks.

2. The grains produced by cow-dung and urine of the cows as manure
are considered pure. Dung and urine of cows make the land more
fertile as compared to chemical fertilizers as has been learnt by
conducting experiments. Chemical fertilizers destroy the fertility of
land in a few years and make it barren. Cow-dung is being exported to
foreign countries so that the lost fertility of the land may be
restored

3. Cows of India are gentle and sattvic in nature. Their sattvic milk
sharpens the intellect and makes the nature of the person mild.
Foreign cows give more milk but they are angry by nature, their milk
makes one cruel. A she-buffalo gives more milk than a cow but her
milk is of rajasic nature. Those who drink cow's milk are more active
than those who drink a she-buffalo's milk. Once an experiment was
conducted on military horses, it was found that horses fed on cow-
milk could cross a river while the horses fed on buffalo-milk could
not do though the later seemed stronger. The milk of she-camel being
of tamasic nature is not useful and it is not used to curd and butter.

4. Cow occupies an important place in performing all religious rites. Her milk,
ghee and dung are used in performing rites and ceremonies at birth, tonsure and
sacred thread. Cow-dung purifies the places too where these rites are performed.
Cow's milk is used in preparing sweet dishes which are offered to Brahmans, in
honor of manes. When a cow is offered to a Brahman it is considered as a punya
or high merit. Also cow's ghee is used in religious sacrifices which are
performed to satisfy desires.

5. The cow is a sacred animal, even the air which touches her body
becomes pure. Her dung and urine, check epidemics such as plague and
cholera. Houses plastered with cow-dung are not so much affected by
bombs as the cemented houses. Cow-dung eliminates poison. In
Varanasi, there was a case of a saint saving a man who was supposed
to be dead by a snake-bite, just by smearing the body with cow-dung
two times. Urine of cow is very useful in heart diseases. A little
quantity of urine of a she-calf, as a dose everyday cures stomach
diseases. A saint suffering from asthma had a lot of relief by
drinking a little urine of the she-calf. These days several medicines
are prepared from cow-dung and urine of cows. Cooking gas is made
from cow-dung also.

6. Service to the cow without expectation of any reward leads to
purification of heart and enables eventually one to achieve
salvation. Lord Krishana is known as Gopala because He staged a human
play as a cowherd with bare feet. In ancient times in India sages
reared cows so that they could have nourishment from the cow's milk
& ghee to sharpen their intellect. Because of the sharp intellects,
they could create such great and rare classic literature. Cow's milk
and butter provided them with longevity, great emperors went to these
sages for expert advice on complex matters related to their kingdoms.

7. In Indian historical records, innumerable names are mentioned who
sacrifices their lives for the protection of cows. But today, it is
sad plight that thousands of cows are slaughtered daily, out of greed only. If
this state of affairs continues, cows will totally
disappear. Then of course cow-dung will not be available. Without cow-
dung land will go barren and there will not be production of corn,
wheat and cotton. People will be deprived of the bare necessities of
life, such as food & clothing and they will have a miserable life.
Slaughter of cows is the main cause of increasing number of natural
disasters such as famine, droughts, volcanoes etc.

Ram Ram

Humble regards,
Madan kaura

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhak,
not only that, becoming vegetarian helps in eliminating world poverty and global
warming.
Some surprising facts:
Every year we feed our livestock enough food to feed 250,000,000 people while in
the world 30,000,000 people die of starvation
20 vegetarians can live off the land required by one meat eater
Every 3 seconds a child dies of starvation somewhere in the world
If Americans reduced their meat consumption by 10% it would free 12,000,000 tons
of grain - enough to feed 60,000,000 people
If all Americans became vegetarian, it would free enough grain to feed
600,000,000 people Intensification in animal farming has displaced 1,000,000's
of people from their traditional lands - eg. indigenous people in south &
central america, native americans in north america & crofters in Great Britain -
this is continuing today People displaced from their lands into cities succumb
to dietary deficiency, diseases, parasites & opportunistic diseases
-In third world countries 1 in 10 babies die before their first birthday
-The UK imports about 46,000,000 worth of grain from third world countries to
feed our livestock
-Due to overgrazing 850,000,000 people live on land threatened by
desertification & over 230,000,000 already live on land so severely desertified
that they are unable to sustain their existence & face imminent starvation
-1,000,000,000 people in the west gorging on meat & dairy leave 1,000,000,000 to
waste away & 3,500,000,000 teeter on the brinksome facts--

please forward scientific facts to the govt, it will be more effective
Love,
sadhna

----------------------------------------------------------

Practically daily our meals contain some milk products - butter, yoghurt,
cheese, milk, sweet dishes etc. We see many of these emails, and feel deeply
saddened, but it is unclear what we are supposed to do in support of Cow
Protection. There needs to be some coordinated efforts to tackle the laws and
government and corruption in the law enforcement to address this issue. Is
anyone aware of any co-ordinated well planned efforts to tackle this problem?
Please let us know including simple steps of what is required of us.
Sarita S

------------------------------------------

¡°Scrap the Slaughter House Policy¡±

Dear All,

With the U. P. Government is giving licenses to new abattoirs in the state,
there¡¯s simply no way that we can ignore the cries of the Lakhs of innocent
animals who fall victim to this barbaric cruelty and mass butchering. All the
proposed ultra modern slaughter houses will have capacity to butcher
10,000-20,000 animals per day and the meat will be exported out of India. Enough
is enough.

You all are aware that U.P. Govt has issued licenses to 8 new Slaughter Houses.
These slaughter houses are against the humanity and means of destroying animal
wealth of the state. In protest, Jain Monk Munishri Maitriprabh Sagarji has
started his fast unto death from 26th April 2011 at Baraut, Distt. Baagpat,
Uttar Pradesh. Locals from the surrounding area and various organisations have
given their support to the Honorable saint but nothing fruitful has been
achieved till date. Local administration there has imposed section 144 in the
city and disrupting the non violence agitation for no good reason and adopting
tactics to discourage the public.

We all know that the slaughter house licenses have been given for the benefit of
few companies. Neither the Uttar Pradesh nor the country will benefit in any way
by opening of such cruel and barbaric slaughter houses. See our article on
benefits from animal wealth: http://ahimsasangh.net/wp/?p=1118.

We¡¯re standing up against the mandate of Government of U. P. State by any means
necessary in support of Jain Monk Munishri Maitriprabh Sagarji, and we need your
help to stop these horrible projects of animal slaughter for good.

Here are 5 ways that you can take action and spread the word to all your friends
and family:

1. Start Group Prayers ( 1-2 hours Paath of Namokar Mantra/ Gayatri
Mantra/Hanuman Chalisa/ Ramayan/Bhaktamar Stotra/ Gurwani Kirtan etc) in your
nearest Temple/Gurudwara or Community Hall for the success of campaign against
slaughter houses and better health of Muni Shri Maitri Prabh Sagarji.

2. Spread the word about ¡°Scrap the Slaughter House Policy¡± and help expose
Government¡¯s shameful secret through emails, sms, blogs, websites etc. You can
also send us your Support Letter (Samarthan Patra) on the letterhead of your
group/organisation/society or community on our email: tuturanjan@gmail.com; this
will be of immense help.

3. Do you have 10 minutes to save animals? Share this film on animal killings:
economic loss to India, which reveals the true facts about the massacre and the
loss of taxpayer money each year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmATxnfygE8

4. No religion in this world supports killing of animals. Watch ABKHVS¡¯s
vegetarian quotes video and then share it on Facebook and anywhere else!
http://ahimsasangh.net/wp/?page_id=44

5. Have you seen what happens to cows in India? Watch this shocking video that
will open your eyes to India¡¯s cruel cow slaughter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZGMpAyWmZ8

OUR TARGET 500 EMAILS DAILY TO MISS MAYAWATI, CM OF UTTAR PRADESH:

Please help us keep the pressure on Government of Uttar Pradesh and the Central
Government ¨C write emails/fax/post cards to UP Govt. officials / start
Signature Campaign in your locality/area to and tell them to scrap the Slaughter
House Policy.

Following are the target email ids:
1.Chief Minister, Uttar Pradesh: cmup@nic.in
2.PR Department: CM office, Uttar Pradesh: upinformationdeptt@gmail.com
3.Directorate of Environment, Uttar Pradesh: doeuplko@yahoo.com
Standard format for post card letter/fax/email:

To,

Ms. Mayawati, Chief Minister, U.P.

Respected Madam,

Your Government has issued licenses for establishment of new slaughter houses in
the state of Uttar Pradesh. I believe that the complete facts have not been
given to you on the issue else you would have not given your approval.
Therefore, I would like to put some concern before you:

No economic benefits can be derived by killing of innocent animals by the people
or the Govt except the Company, which is involved. I would rather say that your
Government can earn 5-10 times more benefits by the conservation of these
creatures of the God in comparison to export of their meat (kindly analyze the
data release by Central Statistical Organisation, GOI, 2009) . Cattle are the
life line of villagers, they give milk, dung for fuel, manure for farming, and
transportation for villagers, conservation of environment etc. They are useful
in many other ways.

Moreover, slaughterhouses are big threat to the environment. The whole world has
accepted this fact and moving towards greener path and adopting vegetarian die
to control Global warming. Many nations have started closing of slaughter
houses; India is the land of Mahavira, Gautam Buddha, Ram-Krishna, who taught us
the lesson of Ahimsa. Jain Munishri Maitriprabh Sagarji is on his Fast unto
death at Baraut, Baagpat since last 11 days in protest of licenses to new
slaughter houses, you should be aware. I am aware that you have great respect
towards sadhus and Indian culture of Ahimsa/jeevdaya.

We request you to look into the matter and ask the concerned department to
reconsider their decision and withdraw it. Please cancel the new licenses of
slaughter houses with immediate effect. I am sure that your stand to promote
Ahimsa/Jeevdaya will bring you greater support and honour from the Aam Aadmi.

Regards,

Name/Place/Email:

You can start sending Post cards/ fax to: 1. Ku. Mayawati, Chief
Minister, U. P. Office of the Chief Minister, Lucknow, U. P. Office:
0522-2236181, 2239296, 2215501 Residence: 2236838, 2236985
Fax to CM-0522-2235733, Governor- 0522-2225995

Permanent address: C- 57, INDRAPURI, NEW DELHI ¨C 110 012 Phone no.
011-23356363, 23356565 2. Director, Department of Information & Public
Relations, Government of Uttar Pradesh, Suchna Bhawan, Park Road Lucknow ¨C
226001 3. Shri Pradeep Kumar Jain ¡°Aditya¡± Union Minister of State,
Rural Development Permanent Address: 52, Gusain Pura, Jhansi, Uttar Pradesh
Tels. (0510) 2440030 Cell no. 09871103294 Present Address: 78, Lodhi Estates,
New Delhi -110 003 Tels. (011) 23388879 (O), 24644994 (R) Fax. (011) 24644996
(R) 23388827 (O)
This entry was posted in featured-image and tagged Campaign against slaughter
houses in U.P., jain muni on fast untill death. Bookmark the permalink.

"IF EVEN ONE LIVING BEING HAS BREATHED MORE EASILY BECAUSE YOU LIVED, CONSIDER
THAT YOU HAVE SUCCEEDED....." RALPH WALDO EMERSON

==================================
To oppose the decision by Congress and Mayawati of UP government with regards to
the opening 8 new slaughter houses.
It is our sincere prayer that please support us, our phone
number is 09999645170, 09873553307, 09711315927

===================================================
Hari SharaNam,

My dear brothers & sisters,

My requests to you all, Please do support to protect the Mother Cow representing
Mother Earth and its happiness in the form of DHARMA.
Humanity should not be measured in "How Humans alone can live with
materialistic comforts." but but it should be measured in "How Humans can live
happily with the happiness of all the beings."

Thanks a lot!
May God bless you!
Niteesh Dubey

----------------------------------------------------------

shree hari ram ram

Please see this video of the ill treatment of loving animals in our country. We
each can take personal responsibility in our shopping decisions and in our
eating habits. Let us pray for the protection of the weak and helpless !!! Let
us live by Dharma! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb8lZyRkoGg&feature=share

Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------

This is a petition to prevent slaughter of 15000 cows per day in DEONAR
SLAUGHTER HOUSE. Please sign it to participate in opposing this demoniac
attempt to modernize cow slaughterhouse.

the link is

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?prtst12d

Do visit to prevent slaughter of 15000 cows per day in Mumbai...

Website for your information on the petition - www.jivdaya.net

Shocking Decision

- B.M.C. want to make it ultramodern
- Per day 14,000 cows will get killed
- 50 lakhs to be killed in just 1 year
- 125 crore estimate expenses
- 6 crore consultancy fees
- 75% of meat will get exported
- Use of 50 lacs liter water daily for slaughter of animals

Effects On Us

- Water Shortages in Mumbai
- Hike in Milk Prices upto Rs.50 / Litre
- Free Spreading of Diseases amongst us
- Creation of Unemployment resulting suicide death of farmers in Maharashtra
- Unwanted parts of animals mixed in other vegetarian food products.
- Drainage system failed due to heavy waste material of animals.
- Cows-Buffaloes can be seen only in Books.

sent in by P. Subramani
sent by Giriraj Daga

==============================

There is a parallel protest going on on the ban of beef food at karnataka,
please food lovers join in
Divya Rajagopal
---------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhaks,

Cow has to be fed first roti in every hindu house. It is said doing so
destroys sins, gives wealth, fortune fame etc. Jaina texts say giving cow first
roti gives 100 types of sukh to the person. 33 crore devidevatas have place in
cow.

One cow of indian breed can only do miracles which 1000 jerseys cant do.my
experience). Couples not having child if they feed cow empty stomach in morning
for one year and ask for child can get one. its because of cow killing that
women dont bear child.

Killing a cow brahmin caste and snake is the henioust sin in world according to
shastras. you must have seen westerners having red eruptions on skin its because
of beef. red meat causes various diseases as compared to normal meat (which also
causes diseases) just see how many medicines non-vegs take.

cows meat lasts for 11 days so it is prefered for killing and is secretly mixed
by butchers, hotels etc for money madness parlysis, defunct bones is because of
sin of cow killing.

ravans only dosha was that despite begin pustalya rishis vansaj is he killed
cows and saints. thats why lord Ram killed him(Vipra, dhenu, sant hit lej dev
avtar).

Krishanji siddi is not possible without cow. He was a cowheard. Gowardhan and
gavalas are respected in indian caste system because they were the clan in which
Krishanji took avtar. On gopatami and gopdwadshi gavalas(cowheards) are given
honoured with malas, tilak, maoney, clothes.

In diwali cow dung is worshipped for laxmi. agnihotra, panchgavya is incomplete
without cow milk, curd, cow urine dung. cow urine fresh if sprinkled within 30
min destroys ghosts in house . cow urine cures many diseases

In our history Mahraj dilip of Raguvansha offered his body to a lion to save a
cow. are we so despicable that we treat cow as a animal . remember cow ganga are
mothers mother.

Muslim countries meat eating is allowed not because of qurbani or nabis orders
that cow goat can be used as food. but because of a simple logic that arabs
didnt have food, crops it was desert so it was must in past to eat meat. So
qurbani was just a food culture.You can get mangos, basmati in UAE, Arab , USA,
UK as transport is easy now so avoid cow and any meat. krishna the supreme yogi
has said in bhagavat gita that tamasic food is meat, wine , drugs etc.

Its sorry that modern education is destroying our faith. tomorow if one tells to
kill your mother will you kill her. no.isnt it.

feeding saving cows gives beauty, wealth, fame, good looking husband wife good
sanakari children.

(courtesy "Astha TV: Please see "Gau Katha" by "Gopal Maniji" for these
knowledge and faith) their is a gau hatya ghat at haridwar to get mukta of cow
killing even in last birth)

Manas dhenu by shri gopal maniji is a lighthouse for cow rearing and protection.
Gita press also has a Gau seva Ank. For cow. with ancient treatments and wisdom
cowdung is more powerful in making soil fertile as compared to urea.

dont import jersey or mix breed with jersey save our indian breed cow if you
want to let world swril(arth, ddharma. kama. moksha). only indian cow can do
wonders as a brahmin only can dleiver havya kavya to god not a forienger or
other caste person. so protect nasal(breed of brahmins and cow and save the
world.

Jai gau mata, har har gange, jai kashiviswanath ki, Jai brindavan,

----------------------------------------------------------

shree hari ram ram

Please see this video of the ill treatment of loving animals in our country. We
each can take personal responsibility in our shopping decisions and in our
eating habits. Let us pray for the protection of the weak and helpless !!! Let
us live by Dharma! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb8lZyRkoGg&feature=share

Ram Ram

-------------------------------------------------

This is a petition to prevent slaughter of 15000 cows per day in DEONAR
SLAUGHTER HOUSE. Please sign it to participate in opposing this demoniac attempt
to modernize cow slaughterhouse.

the link is

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?prtst12d

Do visit to prevent slaughter of 15000 cows per day in Mumbai...

Website for your information on the petition - www.jivdaya.net

Shocking Decision

- B.M.C. want to make it ultramodern
- Per day 14,000 cows will get killed
- 50 lakhs to be killed in just 1 year
- 125 crore estimate expenses
- 6 crore consultancy fees
- 75% of meat will get exported
- Use of 50 lacs liter water daily for slaughter of animals

Effects On Us

- Water Shortages in Mumbai
- Hike in Milk Prices upto Rs.50 / Litre
- Free Spreading of Diseases amongst us
- Creation of Unemployment resulting suicide death of farmers in Maharashtra
- Unwanted parts of animals mixed in other vegetarian food products.
- Drainage system failed due to heavy waste material of animals.
- Cows-Buffaloes can be seen only in Books.

sent in by P. Subramani
sent by Giriraj Daga

==============================

Lord Krishna in Gita Chapter 3 Verses 12,13, 14 says;

Fostered by sacrifice, the gods will surely bestow on you unasked, all the
desired enjoyments." He who enjoys the gifts bestowed by them, without giving
them in return, is undoubtedly a thief. (Gita 3/12)

The virtuous who partake of what is left over after sacrifice are absolved of
all sins. Those sinful ones who cook for the sake of nourishing their body alone
eat only sin. (Gita 3/13)

All beings are evolved from food; production of food is dependent on rain; rain
ensues from sacrifice, and sacrifice is rooted in prescribed actions. (Gita
3/14)

In your home, keep sufficient quantity of cow dung and cow's clarified
butter(ghee). Fire is the mouth of the Lord. Give to the Lord with Love a morsel
and then you eat the remaining. This is the essence of the Gita which you can
imbibe in your lives.
In this description, think a little about the gains and losses. Encourage all to
offer sacrifice to the fire first before eating.

Spread this message to as many as possible and share with others.

Satya Grah

==================================================

Amazing facts about Goumata

The Indian rural cow is considered the most holy and worshipped by many in
India. But not many of us know what makes the Indian cow so special and why it
ranks above the foreign Jersey cow. This article is written with the aim of
shedding light on the very same and as a tribute to our very own "Gou Mata".

An old Marathi proverb says, KhÄn tashi mÄti â meaning the soil
resembles the source. India being the most sÄttvik (âsatvaâ component
predominant ) country in the world, properties of its soil appear in all living
beings residing there, making the Indian cow more sattvik than the foreign cow.
Still, Indians seem to prefer Jersey cows due to their ignorance and greed for
more milk. Hence, the ratio of Indian cows is fast decreasing. Let us explore a
few differences between the Indian and jersey cows that will show us the true
importance of the rural cow.

What makes the Indian rural cow so special?

At the physical level, we find the rural cow has a smooth and firm skin,
straight horns and a tender and kind gaze. On the other hand, the jersey cow has
skin that is rough, horns that are bent, and a stern gaze much like of a
buffalo.

Even the way in which they graze differs. The rural cow never demands food and
eats the grass laid out for it in a quiet and dignified manner. On the contrary,
the jersey cow is seen greedily grazing all the time, making impatient sounds as
the time of grazing nears and tossing the grass around untidily as it eats.

At the behavioral level, the rural cow is seen to be cleaner and more
disciplined than the jersey cow. The rural cow never urinates or excretes in the
place that it stays, and never steps on its own dung whereas the jersey cow
urinates and excretes in the very same place it stays, many a time stepping on
it's own dung.

The Indian rural cow is fast to learn and once beaten never repeats an incorrect
act, but the jersey cow repeats the same act multiple times inspite of being
beaten.

The rural cow has a loving nature and attacks only if provoked whereas the
jersey cow, lacking in love and compassion, can attack anyone at any time.
Another astonishing fact is that the number of troubling insects sitting on
rural cows is much lesser than those sitting on jersey cows!

The rural cow produces milk only when coaxed by it's calf and produces about two
litres per day, whereas the jersey cow can produce milk at any time, ranging
from between seven to twenty litres per day. The milk of the rural cow is sweet,
thick and has a nice flavour but the jersey cow produces milk that is thin and
has a strong odour.

The curd of the rural cow too, has a sweet smell, and a texture that is even and
solid. The raja frequencies in the curd lend strength to the person consuming
it, aiding the mission he or she will be undertaking. The ghee, clarified butter
obtained also has a high sattva component, a nice aroma and a bright colour. On
the other hand the jersey cow produces curd that has a strong odour and a liquid
consistency. It has tama predominant frequencies along with raja-tama
frequencies that could create obstacles in the mission undertaken by the person
consuming it. Also, the ghee obtained has a low amount of sattva component, an
unpleasant odour and a dull colour.

At the time of pregnancy, the rural cow knows exactly when to discontinue
producing milk, whereas the jersey cow does not discontinue it's milk for a
period of eight months after pregnancy. Even the dung of the rural cow provides
us with several benefits. The dung can be smoothly laid on the floor preventing
dust from being attracted to the floor. Â But the dung of the jersey cow is
rough in nature and doesn't form a smooth covering over the floor, causing dust
particles to be attracted to the floor.

Last but not the least, we come to the gomutra (cows urine), that has many
medicinal properties and great aesthetic value. As compared to the jersey cow,
the gomutra of the rural cow has an odour that is not as strong, and a taste
that is much sweeter, lingering in the mouth for a long time. Also the gomutra
produced by the rural cow has a duration period of three to four days, with not
too much solidification taking place. On the other hand the gomutra of the
jersey cow shows a white, thin layer of concretion in a single day.

It is astounding that the difference in sattvikta of the Indian and Jersey cow
is apparent in every small detail,ranging from their appearance right down to
their quality of milk. This once again reaffirms the importance of the sattvik
Indian cow.

The time has now come to restore her old glory and honour. Let us all strive to
be instrumental in this cause, by giving a high stand to the Indian rural cow in
our life and educating others before it is too late.
cHECK OUT - hindu jagrati website.

Dharma Karma

================================================

It is sad that in a Hindu majority country cows are being slaughtered.
Earlier because we were conquered by Muslims and Christians, who ate
beef, cow slaughter was allowed. But now if the majority wants it cow
slaughter should be stopped because in a democracy, the majority
opinion should be respected. First of all in states where BJP rules,
cow slaughter should be stopped. Then we should move on to other
states.
Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

In a recent Srimad Bhagwat Katha in Michigan, Pujya Bhaishri (Shri Rameshbhai Oza) said the following about Cows (Gou Mata)

Protection of Cows is essential. Cow "Gou Mata" is the mother of the world. Killing of cows is a great sin. Cows are the wealth of India. See to it that cows are not slaughtered. Daily, first "roti" is given to cows in villages in India. Indian Cow milk, ghee, yoghurt is very special and good for the intellect. It has many purifying, health bestowing and medicinal properties. Knowledge, Cow and Environment, these three must be protected.

Madhvi Doshi
---------------------------------------

Namaste,
We are making a commercial film on this very grave concern, the effort is to
create an awareness amongst our people about what ever is being cooked, by the
bureaucrats sitting oversees and its effect on every thing under the sun for
this land of saints "Bharat".

Minds who wish to associate with us with what ever ability, please come forward.

Jai Gau Gange mata ki
Dhanyawaad,
Sanjay S. Devkar

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[gita-talk] Swayam and Aham - Need Guidance

2012-01-28T19:26:00.000-08:00

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[gita-talk] Re: Need Advice on Marriage for One Who is Divorced

2012-01-28T19:04:00.000-08:00

Hare Krshna
Dear Sadhaks,
I Am a divorced man and finding many hurdles in getting married inspite of everything being well.
Kindly advice what is the solution as per Our great religion
-Warm Regards
HS

-----------------------------------------------
Hare Krshna
Dear NS
I do feel very sorry for what has happened
to you however your observations indicate
that Men are the culprit in such circumstances
but it does nor have to be that always as in some cases women also are at fault and have some other evil desires hence request you not to assume,advice and righteous without knowing the same fully
Regards
HS

-----------------------------------------------------

Hare Krsna.

Dear HS,

For what happened to my marriage, I put it down to Karma and do not really feel sorry for myself as it is paying off my Karmic debt. Am sorry that I could not help my Patidev realise that he is destroying himself in this lifetime and future but that is no longer in my hand as he walked away from me.

Yes, my observance is that men are the "culprit" many times and Vyas Ji has explained it beautifully so has Subash Ji and the other Sadhakas here. Read again what they wrote and see what I mean--regardless if the
women are at "fault" and have "evil desires" that is not your concern. Sanatana Dharma is about Duty and once you do your duty that is all that you should be concerned with not whether your wife has evil desires and fault. My Patidev was seriously abusive to me and he in turn used to throw back everything he did to me and say I am doing it. He was abusive to me and then told me that I was abusive to him and when asked what did I do---he'd go silent. My Patidev's problem was anger management and he refused to even admit he has problems controlling it. At 50+, it has gotten so bad, it is consuming him as now he does not have time and place. He does not care who is present when he gets angry and as a result no one wants to be around him. He lives alone and should he fall down and hurt himself like I did--he'd have to get up and drive himself to the hospital or call 911. You may ask me why don't I go back to him--he has made it clear in no uncertain terms that he does not want me in his home or life and so I have no choice.

Am sharing my personal story here hoping that others may read and take notice.In our culture, ladies are supposed to silently take abuse and not talk about it. I use my experience with the hope that at least one soul can be saved by reading about this. I pray that the man who may be having anger issues and sees this will go and get help. I pray that the man who is abusing his wife, will understand that he is committing sin---this is a fact as is explained by all the good souls here. I pray that you will examine what went wrong in your marriage and seek to rectify the situation. Divorce is just an escape from one partner, and guess what--the same thing will happen every time afterwards because you are not fixing the problem , just running away from it. My husband is not an isolated case and many like him instead of getting help are destroying theirs and their loved ones' lives.

All of us have to ask ourselves one question--when we leave this body and have to account for all that we did while in this body--what excuse will we make? Karma does not take sides nor can be bribed. The Blessed Lord sees and knows all that we do so we cannot fool Him either....

Hare Krsna.
NS Bisnath.
TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

----------------------------------------

Hari Om

Dear HS- You wanted answer as per Religion ! Clear ? Any doubts ? No ! You also preferred NOT to give any clues as to why and how you are divorced today ! Right ? You still wanted answer ! Right? And now you are stating "know the full facts first" ! Tell me, is it justice? You wanted an answer with limited information..now you can't complain, if the answer doesn't suit you or touches some painful nerve.

SOME LAWS RELATING TO MARITAL LIFE:

You are in the world's the best Satsanga Forum. Let me state some laws to you. It is a law: You can not see fault in others unless that fault is prevalent in you. Between husband and wife, the responsibility of husband is, any day, much higher than wife. It is a law you get your spouse based on what you deserve. It is not that you only get wife, she also gets you. Hence in marital life or in any worldly relationship you are NOT supposed to look at all at the conduct of other...nay..not at all. You MUST look ONLY at your duty and not at other's duty. Your job is to provide happiness to her to the best of your ability.

If she is evil...you MUST tolerate her ! You must govern her and put her on righteous path. If you can't, suffer! That is it. You can't leave her. What will you do if your mind or intellect or body becomes your enemy or has evil desires ? How will you renounce the body ? Reply...I say ! Is she not your 'ardhangini' (part of body) as per religion ? Where can you run away ? Could even King Dashrath do that? You MUST tolerate. However sinful you may be, does God ever disown you? God, inspite of being all powerful, CANNOT ! Can you disown your son? (If police comes to your home and states that your son has committed so and so crime..and asks you if you are his father, what will you say? You can at the most say: Unfortunately I am his father. But can you say "No" ? No...you can not say that ! Reply...can you say that he is not my son?) !

My mom, 78, often says... BHAAGANE SE NAHIN, BHOGANE SE CHHUTKARA MILATA HAI (You get freedom not by running away but by consuming adversity , by tolerating sorrows ) !!

There is no evil existing anywhere except in we, ourselves. SAB JAG ISHWAR ROOP HAI, BHALO BURO NAHIN KOY ! JAAKI JAISI BHAVNA VAISO HI PHAL HOY !! It is a law that if you consider other to be evil ...1 You have already become evil and 2 Other will by force and operation of Law of Nature shall become evil for you !!! Because you are 'satya sankalpa' by your very basic form !!! Your that very thought shall make the other evil. If you think your wife had evil desires, be certain that your this very thought that she had 'evil desires' had contributed equally to her evilness. You thought that she was evil and hence she was evil. It is a law ....Man !!!

Gruhastha Ashhram (Householder's life) is not some fun or an opportunity to make 'majaa' ...Dear..it is an austerity of very high order !!! Are you aware as to what is the biggest fear a male carries in his old age ? "My wife should not die" !! Ask your elders- they will confirm this fact.. Why?

What does a male do? He gets cup of tea in the morning effortlessly, gets his cloths ready, gets his meals ready when he comes home, gets his bed made, and gets his children and elders taken care of ..! He only earns money (now a days even there he is expecting lady to earn..shamefully) ! What does he have to boast then ? She looks weak but she is very strong internally. Husband looks strong but internally, he is hollow !!! How ? I will tell you as to how a male is hollow from inside.

Because without her, you can't even manage your own ward robe...what to talk of taking care of household/children !! Your question to this Divine Forum confirms this. But if you die first, female has such power that she can maintain household, take care of children, make them grow and live without marrying again..! Look at your surroundings , this truth will be visible to you. Can you do that alone ? No...! That is why no male in middle age/old age wants his wife to die before him. Are you not today thinking of marrying again? Why? "A widower male lives like a thief in his own home" ..an old idiom !!!

O Men...Wife is DEVI..she is SHAKTI, she is ANNAPOORNA ...she is POWER..she is the queen of any home..she is GRUHALAXMI ! Never under estimate her. Where is "home" without a wife/mother residing there? You may call that place an ashram or hotel or inn or guest house or 'tabela' or stable or math or dharmashala or club ...but never 'home' , if in that place a wife or mother is not residing. And...therefore.. As a LAW: Half of your punyas (virtues, the result of punyas) go to your wife straight away and half of her sins ( the result of her sins) come to you straight away. (Not vice-versa) !

And... therefore ..as a law to divorce wife is a ghastly sin !!!

You wanted answers based on our Great religion...all sadhaks including NS have provided you that only, without fear or favor. You can not complain !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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read the posts of shri vyas ji and others ,when one marriage is unsuccessful the person becomes more careful in handling the other relationship ,apart from religious matters if a person is not mentally and emotionally ready to accept the uther one even without divorce there is no understanding in both partners it is a forcible living together and in india most of the marriages are of this type ,reasons may be different social ,economic , children ,,family prestige and many more Â but if even there is Â slightest emotional attachment or sensitivty such a situation won't arise .may be this generation girls are more practical ,independent,ego conscious ,career minded so they find it difficult to adjust and on top of all its their parents support Â such decision usually no body takes .this is my humble observation of life .jai shree krishna
Chaman Nigam

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Dear sadhakas,
It is my suggestion that
Marriages are not made in heaven - we are the creators,
known devil is better than unknown angel and
try to get what you like or you will be FORCED TO LIKE WHAT YOU GET.
In our married life knowingly or knowingly no doubt we handle
everything very perfectly and most of the results are successful but
in one or two cases the results are negative, it is purely our lack
of application of individual thoughts. In my opinion if we think we
are the (Husband & Wife) world , without any inhibition or ego if we
discuss by respecting them also a partner of our life/world no doubt
we can arrive the necessary appropriate solution for the betterment
of our life.
BE HAPPY & ALL THE BEST
AAR

----------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

What does religion hAve to do in getting another mate. It starts with the individual. ReliGion is meant to elevate yourself Spritually.

Hare Krishna

P

-------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Quote:

Nothing will ever be well in the life of people who abuse their spouses. Rather than feel sorry for yourself, go to your wife and seek her forgiveness.Did she divorce you--seek her forgiveness for forcing her to make her take such a step.If you did the divorcing---God help your soul....

Unquote

Yes...you are right...absolutely right. It is a law that if you disrespect good food, or good person or good employer or good servant or good friend or good spouse..anything good YOU NEVER GET THAT AGAIN...NEVER..as a Law. This is because you disrespected good people. You made gross misuse of people and things. It is a Law of Nature. It never fails. Hence I agree: "Nothing will ever be well in the life of those people who abuse their spouses" ! It can not be otherwise !

Hence it is a ghastly sin as per Scriptures to divorce wife. Punishments are inevitable. It is said God can forgive you but not Mother Nature. You must reap what you sow.

What is the yardstick of virtue (Punya) or sinning (Paap) ?

Saints have said :

CHAAR VED SHATH SHASHTRA MAIN BAAT MILI HAI DOY !

SUKH DEEJE SUKH HOY HAI, DUKH DEEJE DUKH HOY !!

After deeply studying 4 Vedas and 6 principal Scriptures, 2 conclusions clearly emerge. If you give happiness to others, you will become happy. If you give sorrows to others, you will become sorrowful.

I am reminded here of a story I heard about Lord Buddha from some elder:

Buddha after becoming a Jnani returned to his native village. (He had left his young wife and newly born child in the past.) People in the village reminded him of his home. He agreed to visit his home again. His wife welcomed him and Buddha also met his son who was then adult . Suddenly learned wife of Buddha asked him a question. She said: Lord Buddha ! The thing (element) for which you left home in the night like a thief, leaving behind a helpless wife and toddler child , was that thing not there in the home ? Buddha said: Devi ! That thing was here only at the home and no where else but had I not loitered outside I would not have realised the same.

Buddha was stating that God resides in DUTY ! Another name of Dharma is DUTY !! Once you marry in witness of fire it is your sacred duty to run the family , take care of your better half , raise children and add to the cause of Paramatma by making the 'shrishti chakra' continue. You can not inflict pains and sorrows on your family members during that duty. You opt for a householder's life to give them happiness, to serve them so that you repay your prior debts and not expect anything in return from them ie not incur any new debts...and thus emancipate yourself !! It is a life time commitment for service. It is a DUTY. It is your ONLY DHARMA. If you fail here, you sin.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------

Hare Krsna,

Dear HS,

Does being divorced make you "free" to marry again? Did you marry according to Vedic/Hindu marriage ceremony? Do you know that the word divorce is nowhere in Vedic scriptures and there is no Sanskrit/Hindi equivalent to it?

My husband was abusive to me from our wedding night and the abuse continued until I had to leave because of illness. Life in his house made me so sick and he sent me away telling my Mother to take care of me and when I was well I should return. My Mother refused to allow me to go back with the fear that I will die. My husband ignored me for years and only came when we had a death in our home. He came for the funeral and for the time he spent he did not offer one word of comfort to any of us. All he was concerned with was that I did not introduce him properly to the people who came. Being in grief I needed emotional
and even physical support and got zero. In grief, life was empty for me and I lost hope in everything.

The man that I was married to asked to come visit after 7 years and while I was reluctant at first I allowed him to do so. While here, we both agreed to give the marriage one last chance. He left came back again and all was well. Then he left and suddenly became the angry cruel person again.It scared me again,as it brought back memories that I hoped to never see again. Then he came to visit and on the second day of his stay, I fell down and broke my ankle. We went to the
hospital, and my foot was put into a cast. I was unable to walk, he brought me home,then calmly told me he is leaving in the morning.I begged him to stay and he refused to listen. He left the next day and 2 ladies were left alone to fend for themselves. My sister had to help me to the washroom and do everything for me. I had surgery a few days later and since 6 weeks have not been allowed to walk still.

My husband calls himself a spiritual man and has several hindu groups where he loves to preach on everything. He is highly educated and yet this very man walked away and left his helpless wife. Why am I writing all of this? You say that you are divorced? Why did that happen? Which lady would walk away from a good man, muchless a good Dharmic man? The men here have excelled in their explanations about marriage especially Vyas Ji. Did you read what he said?

Hindu marriages are made a mockery today especially by people like the man who was married to me. He claimed how he wanted a religious wife and when he got one, he abused me because I was too religious and lived a satvika life.

Nothing will ever be well in the life of people who abuse their spouses. Rather than feel sorry for yourself, go to your wife and seek her forgiveness.Did she divorce you--seek her forgiveness for forcing her to make her take such a step.
If you did the divorcing---God help your soul....

Hare Krsna,
NS

-------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

Skipping of marriage by a human is highly beneficial to him spiritually particularly when considered with the fact that the only object of human life is liberation ! The pleasures and pains of procreation, family, association, mating etc are in abundance available in other life forms also and with much more freedom. In human life, marriage, children , family, home ..these are sources of huge bondage, attachments, duties and obstacles as compared with other options. Just one marriage, one association with one spouse, increases your association with the world in geometric proportions. You get attached/associated with Father in law, mother in law, bother in law...and so on. If your spouse has 100 relatives, you get equivalent number added to your list of relatives..just by one relationship with spouse. You also have a chance of very sticky relationship with Kamini (wife) ...it is very difficult to conquer this 'rasa-buddhi' in opposite sex particularly Kamini (female) ! But your chances of getting hugely bound to Kamini may be less , if you don't marry and do not taste the forbidden fruits at all. Then a lot more scope of sinning arises when you take responsibilities in a family ie when you choose Grahustha life (householders life) ! Bachelors/Brahmacharis/Sadhus do not have many responsibilities which a householder has...and they , thus, clearly have lesser bondage.

One of the greatest sages of Sanatan Dharma, and one of the greatest devotee of Paramatma, Maharishi Naarad, became very happy when he lost his mother at very young age. He became happy thinking responsibility got over and now I can devote more time to BhaktI of Bhagwaan !!! Sanatan Dharma scriptures are full of praise for those Sages who remained Brahmachaari (unmarried) and who practiced celibacy ! 'Brahmacharya' is highly recommended and desirable trait for every sadhak and yogi of Gita.

Hence , if circumstances become such that you must remain unmarried, it is special Grace of God upon you and you should , actually, become very happy upon receipt of such Grace. The life of a householder, undoubtedly, is very hard austerity as compared with other ashrams !!!

Hence be cheerful and blissful ! JAAHI VIDHI RAKHE RAAM TAHI VIDHI RAHIYE ! SITARAAM SITARAAM SITARAAM KAHIYE !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna.

my guruji say that divorce is just a paper or law given by government and the
most important part of marriage is the vows taken at shaadi.my guruji says even though my husband divorce me to marry someone else i am still married to my husband as per hindu marriage ceremony.guruji says there is no word of divorcee in hindu scriptures and divorce is created by muslims and christian and do not govern hindu marriages.guruji gets angry at the importance place on divorce and
when none is place on vows taken at shaadi. guruji says when man and woman take vows,they must take all measures to keep these vows and when these vows are kept that marriage will be good. divorce he says happen when there are no keeping of vows.

s.a
--------------------------------------------------------
donot agree with B.S.ur wife and other dependants are not only ur social but divine responsibility.u have vowed before the holy agni or some other form of divine authority ur committment and u must maintain it despite all odds of life.after all ur parents or sisters many times donot agree with u and are many times hostile.u donot desert them because they are ur own.then why wife,who is ur ordained life companion and a mother of your children very much like u are a son of your parent.Remember,that ur wife holds the status of a mother in the family the very same way,your mother,your grandmother held at their time.you adore them,why then this lady.

SUBHASH CHANDER TEWARI

--------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krshna
Thank You all for the inputs,it was certainly very enlightening,while I have come to understand that divorce is not an option and or a solution however this did occur,yes it "occured" for reasons beyond control and comprehension,but I will take things from here and I Am indeed very thankful again to all and very happy to be a part of this group where one can share and is guided through the all supreme scriptures and knowledge of Our Glorious religion
HS

------------------------------------------------
Dear HS,
Become like Adi Sankara. You are lucky. Dont marry and suffer again. Few men and woman while they were unmarried they devoted their life to Bagavan and reached most blissful state. Whereas you want to go back Asti.
B.S

--------------------------------------------------
It shall be best if both of you can reconcile and look for companionship without any complaint about the past.IT will not be anything short of a second marriage.
subhashtewari

-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

What does 'marital relationship' signify spiritually? Gita says: Karmanu bandhini manushya loke' ( Humanity is bound by karmas ie by prior contractal obligations). Certain relations in human life are clearly based on carried forward obligations. Like we never selected our parents , we got them based on prior life karmas. Similarly, however intelligent or knowldgeable a person may claim, the fact is that you get spouse also based on prior life karmas ! There may be prior meetings, decision making process, deliberations, advices sought before marriage from both sides, even an intense liking for each other (called 'love' in modern language) ...but nothing is as serious as is the bondage created for each other in marriage. 'Marriage' is a huge bondage. That is why, the marriage is not compulsory in Sanatan Dharma, it is optional. Your emancipation (goal of human life) is not dependent upon your getting married.

Once you marry, once you call your wife as 'my' wife'or your husband as 'my' husband ..all the problems of spouse become your problems, instantly. as a law. But it is also a fact that as against wife, the responsibility of husband is much higher. Why? Because wife 'renounces' everything at the time of marriage. She renounces her home, her parents, her gotra, her surname, her friends, her dressing, her everything (which she had before marriage) , her body..what not ! She believes necessarily in husband and comes to husband's home leaving every thing behind. What does not she do? That 'tyaag' at the outset itself, makes her many times qualitatively superior to husband. Precisely therefore, Sanatan Dharma Scriptures clearly detest and forbid divorce or cruelty ! What more 'tyaag' a lady can do to begin with? It then becomes the turn of husband to reciprocate by adjusting his ego, comforts, views, conduct, habits, attitude, perception and make marriage a success. It is responsibility of male and male alone to ensure successful marital life. Divorce means failure to adjust together. Lack of renunciation of ego, stands, views, arrogance...! Whose duty it is, once lady has necessarily left (renounced) everything behind?

Male, in particular, can't complain , when it is his turn to 'renounce' ! Wife begins marital life by renunciation and surrender only. Therefore, however she is, whatever she is ...it is the responsibility of husband to adjust ... Even if she is 100% wrong. That is it ! Scriptures are unanimous that it is a very very big sin to divorce wife.

There was one Saint by the name Koobaji ! His wife fled with other person, but after some time came back . Koobaji arranged for her sustenance though again did not accept her as wife. But he ensured she lived comfortably.

Rightly therefore, Scriptures state: Debt on a child of his/her mother is 100 times more than the debt of father ! Why ?

In India , a husband is often referred as "Pati Parameshwar' ( Husband as good as Paramatma)_ ! Why ? Because

JUST AS: Rahati Na Prabhu Chit Chook Hiye Kee (Paramatma does not look at fault of Jeevas..).However you are, once you surrender, once you renounce yourself at His feet,.. the matter ends. It is now responsibility of Parameshwar to take care of you, to ensure you are blissful, happy ! If God can not ensure that, then how is He God?

SIMILARLY : It is responsibility of husband (so called Pati 'Parameshwar' ) to take care of wife , come what may, irrespective of however and whatever she is...! Marriage necessarily begins with renunciation and surrender by her. Matter ends. It is now for husband to ensure she is happy and blissful. If husband can not ensure that...he sins !!!

Aah...Jeevas are after all Jeevas only ! They are not Jagdish !!! To feel proud and arrogant that 'I am husband, Pati, Parameshwar' is one thing, and to live/adjust / renounce your comforts, ego, in favour of wife is another !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhak,

Marriage, then divorce, then again trying to get married..........be very clear at present this is not the best choice for you.

You need to go through the process of self analyzation and self assesment. You need to know who you really are ? Not as a personality but as a reality. Who am I ? Contemplate on this question. Meditate on this at least 20 minitues twice a day for 48 days.

Read Sadhak sanjeevani, and other books of Swami Ramsukhdasji. Read Bhagwat gita. Contemplate on its meaning, as a true sadhak/seeker, first discover the TRUTH,

Dedicate at least couple of years for spiritual advancement.After reaching a certain level in tapascharya and sadhna, you will know what is right for you and then you will be able to create what is needed most in your life.

May all good and auspicious things manifest in your life.

Love and regards,
Sadhna

----------------------------------------------

Dear HS, Namaste!
The best way is to study our great Religion, as you say it is, yourself first to see what it says about Marriage and divorce.
Yet from a practical point of view I would say this.
Hurdles you find are obvious as any man/woman or parents will think hard before they commit to the marriage with one who is divorced!
This can be appreciated by asking what would you do if you have to marry a divorced one or are parents of such a person!
Now that you are already divorced, I am not suggesting to find faults with partner or dwell on your own faults!
You have to learn lessons from this failure, and make sure never to repeat them again!
That means to be ego-less in relationship, give in and not always have your ways.
In Marriage both partners are equally important in decision making. Parents on both sides are also of equal importance.
Understand another person from her/his point of views!
Make your life God-centered above all!
Remain prayerful!
Wait patiently, don't be in a hurry to marry or try to buy the marriage!
Trust God and leave it to Him totally! Then accept whatever comes as a result!
Namaskar..................Pratap Bhatt

------------------------------------------------
Marriage spiritual intent social needs socio-economical realities

I would emphasize moderator's comments upfront. Looking for approval for divorce from scriptures is futile as it is opposed to the very spiritual intent of marriage! I would add further looking toward divorce as an escape route in the name of alternative social norms is neither healthy ... your sadness in loneliness is its living proof!!

Copulative pleasures and reproductive urges are the basic animal instincts the humans continue with. Marriage is an institution deployed by most religions for moderating such craves for society's benefit at large and for enabling individuals to practice spirituality while coping with the animal instincts from within as well as around.

The true value of marriage is in the socio-economical harmony and unity it promotes between two individuals and the families/friends/societies behind them. It is a graceful opportunity to develop oneself toward matured appreciation of life in general - (1) empathy toward a different individual and his/her standpoint, (2) tolerance toward opposed and alien views and values that the spouse hails from, (3) respect toward other individuals as they are, (4) Cooperation toward a holistic prosperity - prosperity in wealth, health and spirit ... !

The deeper value in the same institution is (1) to learn the intricacies of human behaviors, relations and emotions to appreciate one's own Vaasanaa's at deeper levels on one hand; and (2) appreciate oneself in others - parents, wife, children, etc. on the other hand. It is an excellent spiritual tool available to us to work within the framework of survival we are born into. It allows us to appreciate our basic instincts at closer quarters on one hand and teaches us to appreciate the presence of oneself beyond one's body and mind cluster. It allows one to reduce the baggage of ego-centric emotions, ignorance and inertia (Manonaasha) and enables one to break the individual barriers built within so as to appreciate the universal presence of The Self beyond (Aatmabodha).

DIVORCE SHOULD NOT BE A CHOICE! However, keeping the socio-economical changes around in mind, it could be the last, THE VERY LAST, choice in a marriage ... To be sought ONLY when the same opportunity turns hostile pushing the individuals involved into intolerable miseries ONLY when all the avenues to break open a gate toward its true intent - social harmony and spiritual awareness ... OR ONLY IF if anyone is subjugated to inhumane socio-economical oppression and physical exploitation in the name of marital bond. Please note that most divorces happen today ONLY DUE TO EGO-CLASH ... all such unfortunate events can be averted with relative ease by spiritual empowerment from within and soical appreciation around ... doom alone befits those who move toward divorce on the grounds of ego!

Hope you will get another opportunity to realize what a true marriage means. Hope you get a partner who appreciates its values. Personal appreciation within is most often the hurdle. One who is clear within alone can bring clarity around. Therefore, more than anything else, wish that you develop the right perspectives of marriage and develop an innate respect toward the same.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------

Marry your divorced wife as if she is a virgin and start new life with her. Marrying another female for Happy Family Life is (for you) just like searching a black cat in a pitch dark room.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

-----------------------------------------------

Hari Om

An advice has been sought from this Divine Forum regarding re-marriage by a divorced Jeeva. We don't know what is the age of Jeeva, why did divorce took place etc. Hence answer has to be accordingly appropriate.

'To marry' is not the ideal most. It is not at all the goal of 'human beings' ! The goal of humanity is emancipation.

However, in order to sustain the creation and let humans 'taste' as a 'sample' the futile worldly 'bhogas' and to get rid of them thereby, the concept of marriage has been approved by Sanatan Dharma. (Your desires have not ceased. Marry, and see what futile pleasures 'bhogas' and 'attachment/association' give you, presume that all in the world have such bhogas /associations and such futile pleasures only , watch the consequences of them and develop dispassion/ detachment for it, and renounce the very desire for attachment/ bhogas ) ! But getting married, has its own huge duties and responsibilities. You can't get 'married' to enjoy 'mating' and 'similarity of opinion/object' ! You get married because your desire to taste worldly bhogas is not yet satiated, you still want 'attachment' with world/people and JUST AS: an affectionate father buys a toy for toddler to please him, the religion permits you to get married. There is no direct co-relation of marriage with a Jeeva's emancipation but a life of Grihastha has as much scope of emancipation as has a life of say student, brahmachari or sadhu.

You have been divorced. You have had one failure already. You have already tasted the 'bhogas' and has tried 'worldly attachment' and are now at the receiving end of its consequences. 'Successful marriage' is not some compulsory test which you must pass by trying it again and again. You entered the arena of 'marriage' without having any acumen for the same, and failed. The best way forward, now, for you is to stop this desire of marrying again. You could not adjust your self in first marriage. Marriage is not some 'fun' , it entails an austerity of very high order. Even if, your spouse was 100% wrong, it was your duty to continue with marriage, sustain her, sacrifice your own ego, pleasures, comforts for her ego, comforts and pleasures. It was your duty. Now my sincere recommendation to you is to turn towards God, take a vow not to marry again, devote your balance life as a celibate, do social service, and fulfill the goal of human birth. Remember the goal of human birth is emancipation and not 'mating' and developing more attachments.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------

Per my understanding, it is in hindu religion that a man can marry after the death of his wife or a divorce but if a woman does so she has to face the ire of the society ,but itis not so much today as it used to be for the previous generations ,life of a widow was just very troubled one. any way every body knows where the shoe pinches ,so no advise only god can help .jai shree krishna

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The wonderful article on marriage we should send it to all youngsters who are in need of such advices. i as a senior citizen mothr and wife for over five decades and an advocate too am very much overwhelmed with that jayashree sarathy

-------------------------------------------
Shree Hari Ram Ram

This may appear harsh but Swamiji has shared that "No where do the scriptures say for a man to divorce his wife...."

Please carefully read "How to Lead a Householder Life" It will provide lot of insights into relationships.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english%20book%20layout/How%20vto%20lead%20a%20house%20hold%20life/main.html

All situations are for one's upliftment and growth. May be God has some other plans for you. Sincerely and honestly Pray to God. He can be your best guide and adviser!

Ram Ram

===============================================

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