Talks on Bhagwad Gita

[gita-talk] Re: What is the Exact Scope of Dharma?

2012-01-28T12:13:00.000-08:00

I have been following this site for a while and I must congratulate all those concerned in doin a fantastic job
My question is that as per our shastras all endeavours of human pursuit can be classified as our 4 Purusharthas as Artha Kama Dharma and Moksha
I want some clarity on the exact scope of Dharma Is it religousity spirituality or righteousness.
Please throw light

Humbly
Vineeta Malpani
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Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
"Arto jijnasur artharthi,
Jnani ca bharatarshabhaha. "
( Gitaji 7, 16)
Which means,
'Four kinds of people worship Me,
The distressed, inquisitive, who want prosperity and who are looking for the knowledge of the absolute. )
Any one of the these four kinds worships the Lord for whatever the reason may be.
Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha are all allowed in family life as long as the intention is the pursuit of Krishna Consciousness.
But The only Dharma as per Lord Krishna is clearly described in Gita,
" Sarva Dharman Parityajya,
Mam ekam saranam vrajah,
Aham tva sarva papebhyo,
Moksham isyami ma suchaha. "
( Gitaji 18, 66)
Which means,
' Abandon every other Dharma,
Just surrender unto me, I will relieve you of all the sins. Do not fear. '

As per Lord Krishna, there is only one Dharma, that is the ' total Surrender unto the lotus feet of the Lord'.
Let us practice the Devotional Service in the form of Chanting and advance spiritually.
' Kali yuge Smaranan Mukti '
Chanting is the way to go in this Kali Yuga.
Thank you.
Prasad. A. Iragavarapu, MD

-----------------------------------------
Namaskaar Swami Ji et all;
This is the big Q, and i suggest - conscious that one cannevr completely get it right:

In short, considering the welfare of all others and not placing one's self first, such action done to the best of ones own capability with the least of cost to others, is dharma executed at the highest level.

in Sanskrit - Nishkaam
raviji

--------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Very good question ! Such Qs provide Divine momentum to Satsanga.

Kaam, Artha, Dharma and Moksha - these are NOT 'purusharthas' actually. These four are 'desires' in every human being. Out of these 4 desires , 2 viz Kaam(Bhog- desire to consume worldly pleasures) and Artha (desire to possess/own worldly riches) are subject matter of PRARABDHA (Fate/Destiny- dependent upon your past Karmas. Your current /immediate Karmas have no role here) ! Other 2 viz Dharma (Righteousness/Duty) and Moksha (Liberation/Freedom/Salvation/Emancipation) are subject matter of PURUSHARTHA ( Current/Immediate Karmas) !

In fulfillment of desire of Kaam and Artha...Prarabdha is required ! But in fulfillment of desire for Dharma and Moksha ..Purushartha is required. It is another matter that most of us use Purushartha (current karmas) for Kaam and Artha and leave Dharma and Moksha over the Prarandha...a stupidity !!!

Coming to Dharma ..what is Dharma? Dharma is the name of 2 things:

1 To do 'paropkaar' - deeds for welfare of others like charity, putting 'piaoos' (water supplies for general public ) , feeding poor etc etc

2 Based on your Varna/ashram doing diligently your duty as prescribed by the Scriptures !!

That raises the Q as to what is DUTY? Duty is that which you CAN do and which you SHOULD do. Only that Karma which you do for welfare/good of others is duty. The deed which is done for self (or for persons to whom you consider as mine) is NOT duty...it is merely a karma (which binds) !

Whether you call as 'Dharma' or as 'DUTY' - both words mean exactly the same.

The aforsaid is the exact scope of Dharma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------
Dharma is righteousness [as you ask] as said by Krishna in verses 7 & 8 of chapter 4 of Gita [Gita Madhurya page 51 ].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.
-------------------------------------------------

Living for Liberation and, liberation within living

Dharma cannot be isolated from its three partners - Artha, Kaama and Moksha. If we don't understand one, it is imperative that the rest is not understood either. Therefore, let us address the cluster together. Just like any other existential cluster, this also is dual in its direction - one in living and one for liberation. The fellow suffers as one spreads ones legs on both the paths that seem to run in divergent and opposite directions! On one hand, one craves to live and at the same time, one hates any miseries!! One completely misses the fact that the perceived living and perceived liberation from miseries fall into mutually alien domains!!! Balancing the two to unify oneself within is spirituality; and, Dharma-Artha-Kaama-Moksha is one fool-proof path to attain THAT UNION.

Often, it is ill-conceived that liberation is to quit living! The very notion that "those are two distinct dominions" is ignorance. Living and liberation are inseparable as ever. Na hi kashchit kshaNamapi jaatu tishThati akarmakrit nothing in this universe that is manifested can ever transcend the realms of The Action, living in other words. One has to attain THE ETERNITY amongst the relatively mortal existence only ... anityaih dravyaih praaptavaanasti nityam ... there is no other choice! Therefore, one should learn living in the right perspective in order to attain Liberation within the realms of living ... iha chedavedeet atha satyam asti ... if you can't realize while living in spite having all these faculties within and access to the world around, how can you imagine to achieve that when you lack both?! USE your living to attain THE TRUTH ... Annam praaNam chakshuh shotram mano vaachamiti ... Meditate with your faculties within and the world around to appreciate THE TRUTH in ALL ... tapasaa brahma vijignyaasaswa ...

LIVING: Dharma -> Artha -> Kaama -> Moksha :: Tendencies -> dependencies -> Desire -> Relief

In living, by default, one is driven by Dharma which is nothing but the inherent tendencies that keep churning out needs and dependencies (Artha) from within. The needs directly or indirectly threaten the existence or survival and hence create perturbations or restlessness within. The desires (Kaama) arise from these needs in an attempt to moderate/eliminate such restlessness in order to bring in a balance. It is the desires that can drive the rest of the system - mind and body - to seek associations in the world around to bring some potential relief (Moksha) within. One DOES attain freedom within whenever one's desires are met however momentary the state may remain. The corruption here is that the seed (tendencies, Dharma) is never removed! The restlessness manifests again and again ... desires continue ... toiling of body and mind continues which otherwise is perceived as misery! Thus, misery becomes an integral part of living. Therefore, seeking liberation within such living becomes paradoxical.

LIBERATION: Kaama -> Artha -> Dharma -> Moksha :: Desire -> Meaning -> Root cause -> Eliminate

The spiritual process is just to experiment a reversal in the natural phenomenon whichever one is considered! So is the case with Dharma and its partners. Instead of being driven by the inherent tendencies, ride the desires (Kaama) to their roots. Note that you do not have access to anything other than the desires. Therefore catch the desires and ride them toward their roots. Drive yourself to unearth the meaning (Artha) for the desires that you seem to be infested with. The meaning will show you the deeper shades of the desires that is hidden within one's innate nature (Dharma) in the sediments of one's sub-conscious! Question the very need of this innate nature to its core. Only then you probably can gather courage to drop your very nature (Dharma) and respond to Lord KrishNa's call ... Sarva dharmaan parityajya maamekam sharaNam vraja ... and seek THE ONE where there can't be a second. When there is no second, how can there be any threat to THE PEACE thereupon?! When there is no threat of any kind, how can there be dependence??!! FRREDOM (Moksha) is the ONLY POSSIBILITY then.

That is THE FREEDOM (Moksha) that is often referred to as LIBERATION wherein there is no room for any needs, even need for Moksha!!! The very need for Moksha takes retirement as there is no threat of bondage there ... Sadaa me samattvam na muktirna bandham ... Chidaananda roopah shivo'ham shivo'ham ... living continues at perfect balance (PEACE) as ever ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

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[gita-talk] Pertaining to the Need to Keep a Shikha - Please Share

2012-01-27T08:48:00.000-08:00

Shikhaa its need evolution ... Yoga ... and spirituality

Interesting subject. Though I strongly agree with the opening statement by Swamiji "He who looks at benefits and gains, cannot make spiritual progress", all living beings generally seek the need almost always for every thought and action. The nature always goes by ONLY ONE RULE - NEED! That is the key for evolution. Humans were very hairy when they did not know artificial means to protect their bodies! As they used the cloths for millenniums, the nature observed that there was no need for the body hair ... and it receded!! Humans were mostly out-door animals until recently exposing their heads to harsh conditions. As they started increasing their indoor habitat more and more, hair receded from their head too!!! But, interestingly, the hair is receding from front (mostly) leaving the traditional Shikhaa area still fertile!!!!

FYI, hair is shaved off completely on certain occasions in certain communities. Hair, being symbol of pride, is often shaved off at temples in a sense of submission to the God. Hair, being the icon of beauty and all associated attractions, is shaved off while taking Sanyaasa as a step toward detachment. Hair, being the symbol of ancestral reverence, is shaved off at ancestral ceremonies symbolizing self-sacrifice in respect.

By the way, Shikhaa is the knot of hair to be braided at the lower-rear end of the head. ChuDaa is the ritual to initiate the child into education - hair on frontal lobe is shaved off. An interesting observation here is that ChuDaa ChuDa shaving retains hair to cover the skull sutures. I suppose, after observing the most balding trends, the nature still believes that this area needs hair. The hair recedes away from the Shikhaa area the last.

Interestingly, this knot of hair (shikhaa) has a deep relation with the three physiological SHIKHAAs (knots) in the human body which are functioning perpetually to keep one alive.

Agni Shikhaa: Tasya madhye mahaanagnirvishwaarchirvishwatomukhah

The knot of matter and energy (stomach, lever and intestine) that recycles the matter continuously to supply energy and matter to the whole body through lymphatic and blood circulation.

Vahni Shikhaa: Tasya madhye vahnishikhaa aNeeyo'rdhvaa vyavasthitah

The knot of fluid (heart, lung and kidney) that perpetually circulates the fluids all around the body to supply nutrients and remove toxins. This knot enables the energy knot's responsibilities of recycling matter and energy in the system effectively.

Pragnyaa Shikhaa: Neelato yadamadhyastaadvidyullekheva bhaasvaraa tasyaah shikhaayaa madhye paramaatmaa vyavasthitah

The third knot is at the juncture of spinal cord and brain - the power center for the system to function. The electro-chemical signals are perpetually received and dispatched to keep the other two knots functional. All voluntary and involuntary actions are controlled through this. The vitality of the being stays here. Any damage to this knot will paralyze the fellow into coma.

Interestingly, the hairy shikhaa is expected to lay at the Gnyaana Shikhaa that controls the life as such - this is the center of all motor controls (Cerebellum); the most important sense of all, vision, is actualized here (occipital lobe); and the juncture for receiving/dispatching signals from/to rest of the body (Brain Stem) stays here. Even animals know this vital center of life and attack the same for a quick kill of their victims. Humans would protect this region from such attacks (most often by their own fellow beings!) with a tough layer/braid of hair.

Whenever you want to focus on yourself or control yourself or meditate on anything, your attention settles here. Extrapolating from Patanjali's Yoga Darshana, one could visualize this Pragnyaa Shikhaa as the gateway for a Yogi to transcend the Aagnyaa Chakra and enter The Sahasraara.

From spiritual perspective, the Knot of Pragnyaa (AWARENESS) transcends the physiological frame work. It is often referred to as Gnyaana KunDa where the highest order of Yagnya - Gnyaana Yagnya - is performed ... Aatmasamyama yogaagnou juhvati gnyaanadeepike! This is THE SHIKHAA that one needs to stand-by firmly, worship reverentially and proceed through in conviction to advance spiritually ... as one immerse oneself in the AWARENESS thereof ...

Sa Brahma Sa Shivah Se'ndrah So'ksharah Paramah SwaraaT

THAT verily is the body, vitality as well as mind in all ... THAT verily is the origin, destiny as well as support for all ... THAT verily is ETERNAL as such ... THAT verily is the whole universe and beyond ... THAT is The Self Effulgent that pervades all ...

Om! NaaraayaNaaya vidmahe | Vaasudevaaya dheemahi | Tanno VishNuh prachodayaat ||

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

========================================================

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

26th January, 2012, Thursday
Maagh Shukla Tritiya, Guruvar, Vikram Samvat 2068

Pertaining to the Need to Keep a "Shikha"

Question - What is the benefit of keeping a "choti" (shikha, no equivalent word in English) ?

Answer - He who looks at benefits and gains, cannot make spiritual progress. While doing some work, if you only look towards gains, then what reverence do you have for the words of the scriptures, and words of saints? What honour and respect do they hold in your heart? Even animals and birds do things for their personal gains, for serving there selfish needs. This is not humanity. Keeping a "choti" (shikhaa) is for your own good - in this I do not have even the slightest bit of doubt.

In reality, one should look towards "Dharma" without looking toward the gains and losses. It has come in the scriptures (Dharmashaastra) that whatever sacrifices, austerities, charity, fasts, etc. and whatever auspicious work that is done, without keeping a "shikha," will all become ineffective and unfruitful -

Sadopaveetinaa bhaavyam sadaa baddhshikhen cha |
Vishikho vyupaveetasch yatkaroti na tatkrutam || (kaatyaayansmruti 1/4)

Not only that, but those virtuous acts done without "shikhaa" become fiendish acts.

"Rakshasam tadhi vijyeyam samastaa nishphalaa kriyaah || (Vyaas)

Therefore the scriptures have commanded -
Snaane daane jape homm sandhyaayaam devataarchane |
Shikhaagranthim sadaa kuryaadityetanmanurabraveet ||

"During the time of bathing, charity, chanting divine name, oblation, prayers during sunrise and sunset and prayers to the demi-gods (devatas), one must always tie a knot to the "shikhaa" this has been said by Maharaj Manu."

In the sixteen sacraments "sanskaars" in Hindu dharma, the "chudaakaran sanskaar" (ceremony of shaving one's head) has great significance. In this sacrament, by keeping a "shikhaa" one acquires a long life, power, strength and radiance

Deerghaayutvaaya balaaya varchase shikhaayai vasht |

The hindus sacrificed their heads, but refused to shave off their "shikha" during the "Yavan" rule, only for the protection of the "shikha" which has great significance. It is such a sad plight that nowadays, that very same "shikhaa" is being shaved off by people's own hands! In the Scriptures the atonement for not keeping a "shikhaa" has been disclosed -

"Shikaam chindanti ye mohad dveshaadagyaanatopi vaa |
Taptakrucshren shuddhyanti trayo varnaa dvijaatayah || (Laghuhaarit)

All three "varnas", the twice born, that cut off their "shikha" out of delusion, aversion, or ignorance, they become purified after performing religious observance of undergoing pain and suffering."

Ath chet pramaadaannishikham vapanam syaat tatra koushim shikham brahmgranthi samanvitaam dakshinakarnopari aashikhaabandhaadavatishtet || (Kaathkaguhyasootra)

Upon coming under the sway of negligence and oversight if someone cuts of his "shikha" while hair cutting, then he can make one out of "Kusha" (sacred grass used in brahmanical ceremonies) and keep it over the right ear, until the hair is long enough to tie a "shikha" If after seventy years of age (in old age) due to loss of hair, if one cannot keep a "shikha" then one can make a "shikha" with whatever remaining hair from the surrounding area and perform one's daily routine work. If no hair remains, then keep a "shikha" of "Kusha" hair and perform your daily work, but never be without a "shikha"

Akhil Bharatiya Pandit Mahaparishad (Varanasi) has enumerated various benefits of keeping a "shikhaa"

1. By keeping a "shikha" and duly following the conventions man gains wisdom, good thoughts, etc.
2. By keeping a "shikha" the inner powers continue to be strengthened.
3. By keeping a "shikha" man becomes righteous "dharmic", pure (sattvic) and abstinent (samyami).
4. By keeping a "shikha", man attains success in accomplishing both worldly and spiritual work.
5. By keeping a "shikha" man is able to properly do Pranayama, Ashtaangyog and various kriyas.
6. By keeping a "shikha" all "devatas protect the man.
7. By keeping a "shikha" man's eye-sight is protected.
8. By keeping a "shikha" man's remains healthy, sturdy, energetic, and has a long life.

Question - We are embarrassed to keep a "shikha" (choti), how to get rid of this embarrassment?

Answer - It is a surprising thing that while lying and cheating in business you are not embarrassed or ashamed; in abortion and other sinful acts you are not ashamed; in stealing, treachery, etc. you are not humiliated; but in keeping a "choti" you feel ashamed! Is your embarrassment proper, or is listening to words of God and Saints and making them happy proper? If you keep a "choti" then initially you may be embarrassed, but later on it will be O.K.

Question - Seeing the "choti" people laugh, how to be saved from such acts?

Answer - People may laugh, they may call you crazy, then bare it, but do not give up on "Dharma". Your "Dharma:" will go with you, laughter, fun and jokes will not go with you. Do not be afraid of other's laughter. Initially they may laugh, but later on they will have reverence for you, that he is firm on his Dharma. There was a loving gentleman named Shankaranand. He was very educated and learned. He told me that he had gone to Germany for his studies. He said he wore his "dhoti" over there. On seeing his attire, the people initially laughed at him, but later on they respected him, recognizing him as an honest man, a truly righteous man. Therefore fearlessly and boldly fulfil your Dharma, what is there to fear in this, tell me?

There is a story. There was a man whose nose was cut off due to some reason. His associates asked him what happened, and he said that between the two eyes the nose was coming in the way of being able to behold Brahma. If there was no nose in-between, then when the two eyes mean one can visibly and evidentially behold Brahma. On hearing this, his associates also cut off their nose. When they could not have a vision of Brahma, then he said, that it was not due to cutting my nose that I had a vision of Brahma. His associates said - "be quiet now, do not make a commotion! If someone asks you then tell them that you are seeing Brahma" Slowly and surely the word spread and others started cutting off their nose. Many cut of their noses but did not have a vision of Brahma. Now when any one with a nose would come, they all used to laugh at him, saying look him with a nose ! Similarly, the ones who have had their "choti" cut off, are laughing at the ones with "choti". Therefore do not pay attention to their laughter, one must follow their "dharma".

Na jaatu kaamaann bhayaann lobhaad
Dharma tyajejjeevitasyaapi hetoh |
Nityo dharmah sukhadukhe tvanitye
Jeevo nityo heturasya tvanityah ||
(Mahabharat swargaa. 5/63)

Out of desires, fear, greed, or even to save one's life, one must never give up their Dharma. Dharma is imperishable and pleasure and pain are perishable. Similarly "jeevatma" is imperishable and the cause for its bondage (attraction) is perishable."

Narayana ! Narayana !! Narayana !!!

From "Shikhaa Dhaaran ki Aavashyaktaa" in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasj

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If in doubt regarding the translation, please read the original Hindi message by Swamiji.

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[gita-talk] What is the Exact Scope of Dharma?

2012-01-27T07:35:00.000-08:00

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[gita-talk] Re: Gita's View on Idol Worship, Is Idol Worship against Vedas and Not Recommended?

2012-01-26T10:25:00.000-08:00

Sir,

I will be grateful if you can give views of Gita on Idol worship. Many claim that Idol worship is against the Vedas and it is not recommended.

Regards,

Satish Oberoi

----------------------------------------
Everything is worship there is no idol ever there is no worshiping either

There is nothing that is not Upaasanaa. Everything and every act is ever-submitted to THAT. Hence everything is Upaasanaa only sometimes it manifests with specific qualities projected upon individual entities sometimes it just remains in its sublime presence with no apparent qualities The very life is Upaasanaa ... The very existence is Upaasanaa ...

THERE CANNOT BE ANY IDOL WORSHIPPING! Everything is submitted to THAT which transcends all idols altogether - remains exclusive to all in spite of including all!!

When everything - whether manifested or not - is ever-submitted to THAT, anything that apparently is submitted to any perceived idol is also naturally submitted to THAT transcending all hierarchies one can ever fathom in between.

When THAT is everything with absolutely no hierarchy in between, any submission to anything is directly submitted to THAT as such.

When no entity has an option not be in submission to THAT, how can there be any thing or act that can remain not submitted?! How can any remain outside the realms of worshiping??!!

Everything is in absolute submission to THAT Sarvam KrishNaarpitam iti.

At the same time ... when THAT is everything, how can there be anything but THAT?! In that case, who worships whom? What is worshiping?? When there is NOTHING as any specific existence while THAT IS in all beings there is neither a worshiper nor a worshiped ... there is no worshiping in reality ...

THAT JUST IS ... Vasudevah Sarvam iti.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

--------------------------------------------------

Geeta's view is same as Vedas that supreme cannot be idolised. However, Verse 5 of Chapter 12 says that Kleshaha Adhiktarah Tesham, Avyakta Askata Chetasam, Avyakta hi Gatihi Dukham, Dehavadbhihi Avaapyate. Verse makes Bhawad-Geeta's stand clear on the subject in which preceding two verses 3 and 4 describe what is to be achieved and how it can be achieved and also the characteristic of one who have reached the goal as Sarvatra Sambudhhayaha.
Hence although experience of Divine is without form, it manifests in Bhakta with form by his behavioural characteristics. Idol is necessary in the beginning to focus the waandering mind, later purifying it by Bhava Shudhhi by remebering the virtues of the Divine as manifested in the idol and ultimately abandoning the idol with respect when task is achieved.
Jayantilal Shah

-------------------------------------------------------
Dear Ones, Namaste!
From the posting of Mike, specially his last para I see the spirit of it and doesn't categorically diminish the value of Idol worship!
I couldn't see humble sdhaka's post though to make comments.
Swamiji has already answered it nicely.
My take is this.
In idol worship, we feel humility by thinking about the quality of diety, particularly when we prostrate at His/Her feet. It is one way we relate to God in the form of Idol or any such symbol. By reminding of the great power of Lord in front of us, we become humble and thus benefit .Humility brings egolessness in us, and this brings Realization down the road!
We are talking about true Humility, not just make believe!
So, if Idol worship works for one regardless of what is said somewhere, fine, do it. At some point we need to go beyond it to arrive at Our True Home - Godliness!
Without Idol worship also one can reach God! Afterall Vedanta is also a part of Vedas teaching us the highest Truth by the way of Direct Path of self-realization by Self-Knowledge!
Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------

Dear all,
Gita accepted both 'Sakara' (Image), 'Niraka' (No Image/Shape) ways of worship. Gita recommended 'Sakara' worship to all, as ' Image worship' is easier for all including common man.

Vasudeva

-----------------------------------------

Idol Worship Gateway as well as hurdle for spirituality

Though spirituality encompasses existential realm by far, it remains rooted in the very same existence as far as the seeker remains within the existential realm. The only existential mechanism for learning is to observe, imitate, imbibe and feel. A respectful acceptance of the teacher is essential for this process. An IDOL is the only gateway to learn. Therefore, an IDOL is the only gateway for stepping into spirituality as well.

At the same time, an existing IDOL is the road block for the very learning process as one refuses to and/or is afraid of breaking the existing IDOL. An IDOL being a notion generated by an existential element, from existential resources and for serving existential needs OUGHT TO remain an existential entity, just a point in the infinite grid of universal existence. The disciple can never appreciate anything beyond the IDOL unless the associated paradigm is broken!

Therefore, Poojaa is the very first prescription to any. Observe and imitate the IDOLISTIC behavior to learn. Rituals dominate the process.

Next is to appreciate the characteristics of the very rituals, the idol as well as the learner - SaguNopaasanaa. That lets the disciple appreciate the nature of the IDOL being worshipped, the process of worshipping itself as well as the mirror reflection one experiences within. That alone lets the disciple transcend the very IDOL toward a bigger picture.

Only when one develops deep appreciation all three aspects - worshiper, worshipped and worshiping - one naturally makes another paradigm shift absence of all characteristics and its nature - NirguNa. A truthful appreciation of the non-existence that always remains the basis for existence can be enabled only when one breaks the barriers of IDOL in general. ONLY THEN, it is a possibility for appreciating THE ONE that is both existence (SAT) as well as non-existence (ASAT) to experience the ultimate reality ... VAASUDEVAH SARVAM ITI ...

Keeping the ultimate in view, there are utterances here and there that IDOL worshipping SHOULD BE dropped Nedam yadidam upaasate yadasya tvam yadasya deveshvathanu meemaamsyameva te manye viditam even if you think THAT could be a wonderful god that you believe and worship, your appreciation is verily limited and questionable indeed!

One has the be acutely aware of the nature of an IDOL. It is not restricted to just a physical image. Any image is an IDOL only an essay of vocabulary ... a movie of imagery ... just a fiction churned within a mind! An IDOL is anything and everything one tends to believe to lock oneself within - a cosmic entity, a natural form, a physical form, a wall, or a cross, or a symbol, or a sound, or an idea, or a silence ... Vyaakrita as well as Avyaakrita ... Sat as well as Asat ... Existence as well as non-existence ... BUT ... ALL THESE ARE IDOL WORSHIPING (PAGANISM IN OTHER WORDS) ONLY!

Taking this ultimatum as reference, very often one attempts to mislead oneself as well as others by settling to some concept as NIRGUNA while the rest being SAGUNA. The very settling is an indication that the state of very settlement is characteristic of the state bringing the same into SAGUNA realm. Therefore, there is ONLY IDOL WORSHIPING even if it is toward some "AVYAAKRITA" ... until one appreciates THE ONE in ALL, in SAT as well as ASAT, in Vyaakrita as well as Avyaakrita, in Existence as well as Non-existence ... until one appreciates oneself as THAT in depth ... Aham Brahmaasmi ... until one realizes ALL in THAT ... Vaasudevah sarvamiti ...

Till then IDOL WORSHIPING is the only way that we tread, that we can know, that we can experience. Only correction we can make is DO TRUTHFULLY whatever you do THINK TRUTHFULLY whenever you think EXPERIENCE TRUTHFULLY however you experience ... for ONLY ONE REASON - to appreciate THE TRUTH in depth

Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa | Vedaah sarvaangaani | SATYAMAAYATANAM ||

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

------------------------------------------------------
-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Re : 'If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom
will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that
there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita. In the same
manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the
twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the
Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship
easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. It
means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a
beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline."
Whom will he offer leaves, fruit water ... try people who have a
need, not a lifeless statue that has no needs, the Ganga try to
sacrifice by an effort to clean it up and protect it. In other words
the worship by service.

In my group when we meditate, we sit in a circle, in the centre is a
candle, it is there to acknowledge the divine presence, not worshiped,
ie to indicate that meditation is in progress.

From a blog:

But where are the great many quotes in the various scriptures about idol
worship?

There is not even a single line in the Vedas or Puranas that support
idol-worship.

Thus if great learned men use the best Vedic quote, "Come down to us,
Rudra, who art in the high mountains. Come and let the light of thy
face, free from fear and evil, shine upon us. Come to us with thy love,"
and translate it into worship of stone idols we can only reel in
repulsion and disgust. If this is one of the "great many quotes in the
various scriptures of the different sects of Hinduism referring to the
worship of murthis", then we can only shudder in silence and utter aversion.

Hindus should remember that they are led to believe that only their
brahmins are empowered to act as middlemen between themselves and the
gods through elaborate rituals and lengthy sacred sequences of mantras.
For millennia ignorant masses have been conditioned that these temple
priests are able to communicate with the mighty deities represented by
stone statues infused with their shaktis (power) in elaborate rituals
only feasible by brahmins.

So what are brahmins without their visible idols? And what are
worshippers without common sense to distinguish between manmade rituals
and scriptural Truth? And how did the followers of the eternal Sanatana
Dharma succumb to such darkness?

The pristine and flawless Vedic scriptures did not contradict at all. It
was the priestly caste that perverted them for their own power, and
maintained it with a plethora of granite gods. And a billion Hindus
remain blind to one of the greatest falsehood perpetuated in the name of
God Almighty. May they learn through Self-Realization to worship the
Eternal Essence of Brahman (God Almighty) within their own beings than
the lifeless idols without, a stain on the Sanatana Dharma which even
the Great Adi Shakti denounces! { Is this true?}

Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."
"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]
Reflecting on the above Upanishad snaps the whole concept of Bhagavigita
Ch 11 into focus,' cannot see him with the eye', so try observing him
with the consciousness, notice I am not using the word seeing.
Worshiping idols is missing the point.

I would like to explore this whole subject via the Veda, as this was the
platform of the original question.

What say you Sadhaks.

I did a search on Sadhaka-Sanjivani on line, for murti no hits, and idol
no mention in Bhagavadgita, about five mentions in the cometary,why the
silence?
Are the Gods like Shiva, Shakti(goddess) and Lakshmi, and Sri Krisna
clay or are they spirit.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
--------------------------------------------

Dear All,

Worship and prayer are modes of communicating with the all-pervading,omnipresent Divine, with a deep sense of Bhakti(roughly, devotion).
Nobody 'worships' idols as such.The expression 'idol worship' is misleading. People worship God in many ways; one such way is through idols or photographs.
One cannot pray to or worship 'nothingness'. Therefore, we must have a symbol or shape to keep our eyes on or to meditate upon or beseech or speak to.
If someone tells you that he does not worship any image , be rest assured, he is telling a lie ! A Muslim, for example, says he does not pray to idols or photographs;
but when he prays he brings to his mind the image of the Kabba or a similar structure or a mosque, or a saint or a darga. He does not pray to 'nothingness'
because it is not possible, by definition, to visualise 'nothingness'. He too, therefore, is praying to a shape or image that he brings to his mind. So is the case with
other religionists. They too have some symbol or image to pray to or worship.There is no such thing as a superior mode or method of worship, as long as one
prays or worships with total surrender and a deep sense of involvement in the Divine.

SO THEREFORE, REMEMBER , YOU ARE NOT WORSHIPPING OR PRAYING TO AN IDOL , BUT TO GOD, THE DIVINE. THAT IS JUST A SYMBOL FOR YOU TO KEEP YOUR MIND ON.

K.A.K.RAO.

---------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

All the beings are idols (MURTAYA SAMBHAVANTI YAAH-GitaJi 14/4) produced by the combination of lower/APARAA and higher/PARAA natures of the Supreme (GitaJi 7/4-5-6, GitaJi-13/26) . Lord KrishNa, the Supreme, in the form of manifested idol (i.e. VYAKTA MURTI) himself says that everything is pervaded by me as un-manifested idol (AVYAKTA MURTINA - GitaJi 9/4) and not only that he is the universe/multiverse (VISWAMURTI GitaJi-11/46). The Supreme idol, whether manifested or unmanifested is beyond any imagination created with nature produced mind, intellect etc. He, being manifested, is fully unmanifested and vice versa. He has hands, legs, eyes, heads, mouths, ears everywhere and he is sitting while being all pervading. He experiences all the senses without having senses. He takes care of whole world without being attached. He enjoys all the attributes being free from attributes (GitaJi -13/13-14). He has infinite forms (ANANTROOPA, VISWAROOP, CHATURBHUJA, DVIBHUJA,..) . He has infinite names (RAM, KRISHNA, VISHNU, SHIVA, DURGA, GANESH, SKANDA, ... .).

Dear Mike Sir,
In my understanding, the translation of Gita 7-24 , as you have mentioned, is not correct. It has ignored the word AAPANNAM/limited/restricted. Because of that it has changed the whole meaning. You may want to look some other translations/commentaries.
Its should be like.....
The ignorant, not knowing my Supreme imperishable unparalleled BHAAVAM/nature/existence, think of me (the Lord/Bhagavaan who is already manifested and talking to Arjun), the unmanifest, as being limited by the manifestation (i.e. his manifestation is like ordinary being).
Similarily, we must not ignore the word "AASHRITAM" in GitaJi - 9/11 which is also talking about the same fact.

Also, your following sentence does not reflect the true meaning of the those verses.
Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."
These verses do not indicate that "idol worship is bad". Here, in 20-21, it is said that the ignorant, full of material desires/KAAMs worship various TANUM/bodies/forms of demigods and the Lord directs their SHRADDHA/faiths/sentiments to those demigods.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

----------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

This refers to postings of Brother Mike and Humble Saadhaka re: Idol Worship. Rest all saadhaks have given their categorical views in favour of idol worship. I beg pardon of all of you for a detailed reply- exceeding Moderator's Guidelines.

RE: OBSERVATI0NS OF BROTHER MIKE

At the outset my compliments for your deep research , study (svadhyaay) and striving. Your research is doing Divine service to all of us, believe me on that.

Gita is the nectar of all Scriptures including Vedas . It categorically believes in 'idol-worship' ... in all types of idol worship.. clearly and correctly so. There are no contradictions among Gita, Vedas , Upanishads, Bhagvatam, Ramcharitmanas or any other Great scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Absolutely there are no contradictions at least on as important and crucial issue as idol worship. There is no question of "idol worship falling short of real thing"...oh no .. ! If ordinances of Scriptures are followed, certain idol worships get you the real thing most certainly..undeniably..easily..demonstrably..logically !!

At the same time it should be clear that you do not worship stone , you always worship Paramatma /Demi God...etc etc situate in that stone, metal, clay etc etc The Kabir's doha (two liner) referred by the Humble Most Sadhak is talking of those, who see merely a stone or some other thing but not Paramatma in that stone (Kabir attacked belief-less blind rituals more and tamasic worshipping Just As Gita too attacked them ).

The following are some verses of Gita from where the sanctity for idol worship can be inferred:-

Devotees prostrating before Me worship Me with devotion. (9/14); Whoever offers Me with devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I accept that pious offering of the pure in heart (9/26); Worship of God (in his five forms Visnu, Siva, Durga, Ganesa and Sun-God, of the twice born, of teachers (including parents and elders) and of the wise liberated souls this is called austerity of the body (17/14).

If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita. In the same manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. It means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline."

As regards your observations pertaining to worshippers of demi-gods going different way, as compared with worshippers of the Supreme referred in Gita ( 5 Supreme category Gods - Ganesha, Sun, Durga (Shakti), Vishnu and Siva) , firstly please note that idol worship is not limited to these two categories only. As per Gita, Idol worship can also be of
Yakshas (Say Kuber- Rajasic type ) ; Rakshashas ( Say Raavan- Rajasic Type) (BG 17:) ; of Pittars (abode of dead ancestors, elders, parents -9:25/17:4 - Rajasic) ; Bhoots, Pret ganas ( ghosts, spirits - 17- tamasic type ); Dwijas (Brahmins, Yogis, Teachers - 17:14) ; Seers and Saints/ Liberated Souls..17:14 ; Great Mountains (Refer Govardhan worship) , Rivers, ...what not ? Sure...but so what? How does that mean that Scriptures are contradicting between themselves? Idol worship is not controversially recognised in different scriptures - certainly not ? It is unanimously recognised. It is not that Vedas say something and Gita says another ! No... Not at all..! Results may be different based on Bhavas of worshipper but that is the case every where else be it charity or austerity or yagyas (sarifices) ..!!

Let me explain on your views one by one.

.. go to the different planetary systems where various demigods are situated,

Yes ! How does it vitiate the sanctity for idol worship? It does not. There are different results for different karmas emanating out of exercise of power of belief by different Jeevas. Those who worship Supreme alone (through say 5 forms) are worshipping only and exclusively Him and Him alone. Balance may be materialists even , may go to hells too, but so what? Where is contradiction among Scriptures? Where it is wriiten in Gita that idol worship always gets you God ?

just as a worshipper of the sun achieves the sun

Sun is one of the five Supreme. Sun is not demi-god. He is God Himself.

or a worshipper of the demigod of the moon achieves the moon. It is not that everyone, regardless of whatever demigod is worshipped, will reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Sure..! But which scripture promised that idol worship always gets you God? And how does that vitiate the sanctity for idol worship? Tamasic types worship idols of ghosts and spirits also but so what if they go to hells or become ghosts themselves?

That is denied here, for it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to different planets in the material world but the devotee of the Supreme Lord goes directly to the supreme planet of the Personality of Godhead.

So what...? Yes...where is contradiction?

Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence."

It has nothing to do with idol worship.

Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."

Yeah Sure..! So what ? What is the contradiction? Do Vedas say otherwise?

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images."

Where are images? The idols are as per descriptions given in Scriptures. Lord Siva having quarter moon on His Forehead or having Ganges in His hairs is not an image nor is Durga holding weapons or riding on Lion is some imagination.. Nor Lord Hanuman is output of imagination ..Nor Ganesha nor Sun ..Nor Rama nor Krishna ..who is out of imagination ? None.. ! Which demi-god or God etc is an image?

Yajur Veda 32:3: "God is formless and bodiless"

Okay but there is 'Samgra' of Him also. Where the Sakun Sakaar, Nirgun Nirakaar, Sagun Nirakaar etc are denied here. How does it contradict idol worship? Gita also says so at many places exactly or similarly. So what..?

Yajur Veda 40:8: "All those who worship the uncreated things, they are in
darkness, and you'll enter more into darkness if you worship the created things."

Who is worshipping stones ? Idol worship does not mean worshipping stone. You worship Supreme God, or Demi Gods, or Yakshas or Demons or Ghosts believed to be situated in them by you..! All of them are not created/uncreated by worshippers, for example, the idols may be created by sculptors but not God or demi gods believed to be situated in them . Lord Siva or Krishna or Ganesha ..they are not created or uncreated things..nay ..not at all. Actually, here Vedas are confirming Gita and talking about ghastly and tamasic idol worshipping.

Rig Veda, Vol.8,1:1: "All Praise are to Him alone"

Sure ! Who praises worship of tamasic type? Gita has not praised that. Gita has praised only of Supreme ; but then comes Devatas (sattwik) , then Yakshas/Rakshashas- Rajasic) , tamasic all sorts ..! Where iis praise in Gita also of any other except Him alone? Where is contradiction?

Rig Veda, Vol.6,45:16: "There is only One God, worship Him."

Sure ! But where does it say no one can worship any other ? Jeeva has "power to believe" ..a tamasic person may believe in ghost and as a result can become that also. Jeeva can go to hell also because of that but so what? Where is contradiction ?

RE: OBSERVATIONS OF HUMBLE SAADHAKA

As regards observations of Humbly Saadhaka, who claims unshakeable belief in Vasudev Sarvam, and always says 'All is God' but does not believe in 'murti pooja' and thinks that it is 'strange and beyond comprehension'.. my answer is 'Doosara Ayaa Kahaan Se (How other has come)' ?...If All is God where is scope for feeling strange? But, Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj says:

"He who does not worship anything, and only MAKES UP TALKS, he cannot realize that "God is everywhere"....
But those who merely say that God pervades everywhere but don't hold any object in reverence, have no divine sentiments of worship and devotion, and they are not really called devotees because they simply articulate "God is Everywhere" but do not really believe it; that is, they have not really turned towards God."

As regards question of the Humbly Saadhaka that " How can any idol represent the tattva or Paramaatmaa [assigned to be sarvavyaapak and anaadi and anant]? My answer is: Sir, if He is 'sarvavyaapak' then why can't He be in stone also? What is devoid of Him? Doosara Aaya Kahaan Se? - But the answer of Param Shraddheya Swamiji is:

"Worship of God through the medium of a "murti" is a matter of faith rather than of reasoning. The glory of God is revealed to those who have faith in Him. The worship and adoration done by these devotees is accepted and partaken by God. It means God manifest Himself in an idol, in front of a devotee who worships Him with faith and devotion."

That is what Swamiji has said, My Dear Humbly Saadhaka ! Now come to your observations about cow worship. Is there no God in a cow? DOOSARA KAHAAN SE AAYA ? Reply..! What difference does it make to the worship of cow or the God present therein if some body uses Liv-52 or has Italian marble flooring or likes creamy milk of a buffalo? Now read what Swamiji said about cow worship:

"In other words, to experience "God is everywhere," worship of cow are an immense aid. This is because the worshiper, has begun to believe that "God is everywhere".

How can you believe in Vasudev Sarvam and not believe in idol worship or cow worship, this phenomena therefore is strange and incomprehensible to us !!! Please enlighten us and oblige ! This is what remains to be learnt My Dear Humbly Saadhak !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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very good reading .all many aspects have been covered nicely --jai shri krishna
Chaman nigam

---------------------------------------

Gita's view on Idol worship is very simple and clear. Gita says that
the Ultimate Truth to be realised is that God is in everything however
big or infintsimal and everything is in God. This appears very abstract to start with and difficult to realize even follwing the various methods of yoga. It is therefore ntural that many people will like to visualise to start with God as something they can perceive easily, for example a force of nature like Fire or storm or thunder of an animal or a bird or a human being and they would like to keep looking at the picture or idol of such an image of God in the front of their eyes and in their mind to pray to him or worship him. This is like learning A for apple and b for bat in class 1: it is only after some years of scholling that one learbnns languages and only at a later stage learn to appreciate literature, novels, potetry etc. Similarly we learn to conut at the childhood age, thenn learn arithmatic and much later we can learn alegbra and calculus. Not all people get to the stage of mastering literature and hgher mathematics. In the seeking of the ultimate truth, some people will start at the class 1 stage and may remain there or reach upto class8. This is where idol worship is important. But some of them will go to Ohd leel or beyond in search of ultimate tryth as many
saints have done like Shri Ramakrishna, or Kabir. Eveb\n after they have
realised the Truth, they may continue ido worship. Since od resides in
everything, idol worhip is not inconsistent with Gita: but remaining in
idol worship without being able to realise the Truth is a failure to go
up: yet even sincere idol worship on a regular basis gives considerable
inner strentg to the people to live happily amidst all problems. It is
valuable in itself even if the timate Truth is not realised. But one
must know that God does not remain limited to a particular idol and must
not have an ego of pride tat one is worshipping an idol of God.
Vedas prescribe varoious rituals associated with worshipping God ad His
various forms like Fire, Sun, Earth etc. But Gita says that the ultimate
Tuth cannot be realised simply by following the rituals unless one fully submits to God, gives up all ego and desires, anger and hate, Rituals should enable complete submission to God and love for all.
You may like to read Swami Vivekanada's essays on Yoga, especially
BVakti Yga and Gyan Yoga to know his interpretation on this subject of
idol worship.

Basudeb Sen

------------------------------------------

as we who are born in hindu families are exposed to idol worship fron the day we come to think or talk --first words that we hear is the name of ram, krishna ,shiv or any other god [incarnation]mata we are taught to namaskar or chant or the morning [good morning]by the name of god ,how can we br or our dharm [sanatan dharm ]be against idol worship .as said by swami Vivekannd - Hinduism is a way of life --you may not hardly follow the rituals but thinking and living is effected by the hinduism .jai shree krishna .

Chaman Nigam

====================================

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

From: Hindu Scriptural evidence against making and worshipping idols.
Bhagavat Gita 7-23 : Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.
Purport: Some commentators on the BG say that one who worships a demigod can reach the Supreme Lord, but here it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to the different planetary systems where various demigods are situated, just as a worshipper of the sun achieves the sun or a worshipper of the demigod of the moon achieves the moon. It is not that everyone, regardless of whatever demigod is worshipped, will reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is denied here, for it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to different planets in the material world but the devotee of the Supreme Lord goes directly to the supreme planet of the Personality of Godhead.
Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence."
Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images."

Yajur Veda 32:3: "God is formless and bodiless"

Yajur Veda 40:8: "All those who worship the uncreated things, they are in
darkness, and you'll enter more into darkness if you worship the created things."

Rig Veda, Vol.8,1:1: "All Praise are to Him alone"

Rig Veda, Vol.6,45:16: "There is only One God, worship Him."

So from that above it seems that idol worship falls short of the real thing.
Someone may ask me do you have any idols in your house, well I have an image of Guanyin and two Golden Buddhas, do I worship them, light candles, burn incense, offer gifts to them no, I just like their appearance, maybe they reflect a deep part of me, my bhava, do they stir in me something? Sometimes yes, do I use them for devotion? NO. They ultimately remind me of compassion and empathy, 'The Beloved' I really do not need to be reminded of.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike

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IT IS FAR MORE KNOWLEDGE GIVING IF THE SUBJECT MATTER IS CONSIDERED IDOL USAGE THAN WORSHIP.IDOLS SERVE AS STORAGE DEVICES OF INITIAL INPUT ENERGY AND SUBSEQUENT PRAYERS AVAIL THE BENEFIC BLESSINGS.
subhashtewari

--------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Idol worship is ideal for sadaks. One has to concentrate all his mind on ONE thing first without any distraction. So a person first stars with idol worship, develops devotion, this devotion develops into Bakthi, this bakthis develops into Nis Kama prema Bakthi, the he see GOD everywhere and in everything like Prahalad. Only when mind reaches a stage where a person sees God as Omnipresent the he reaches godliness. God is said by Vedas, "Akshranam" (Divine Sound) Om, "apprameyam" (God cannot be seen with eyes and felt like object), which again means idol worship level overcome. Many Bakthas like Meera, Tukaram, Tulasidoss, Markandeya etc all first worshiped idol. The they reached heights where they saw God everywhere and in everything, then gave NO importance to idol worship.
B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

Divine Moderators have already attached comprehensive views of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What then remains to be said? Ha..the very framing and language of question then becomes questionable !!!

No worship of Supreme is against Vedas ! You don't worship idol/ stone..you worship the 'avyakta' (unmanifest) Paramatma, interalia, situated in that stone ! It is your inner 'bhava' (sentiment) that gets credit not the outer couch. Your heart must melt in devotion. Swamiji often said: Yardstick of Vasudev Sarvam realisation is that what you get by worshipping an idol in a temple, you get the same thing by making prayer before a torn cloth !! It is 'bhava' all along !!
Actually , said Swamiji, to have a vision/thought/drishti of food in the prasad of God (Thakurji), drishti of water in Thakurji's charanamrit ( water which touched the legs of Thakurji's idol), drishti of stone in Thakurji's Shree Vigrah (idol) and of caste(jaati) in a Sadhu ..these drishtis take the seer into hells. Hence when you worship idol , your view/drishti/thought/vision/bhava should of seeing God in it...it should not be seeing a stone !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
--------------------------------------------

Idol worship Poojaa Upaasanaa

Worship is an act in reverential submission. Worship to anything ought to be worship to The God. As Bhagavadgita declares often, the worship is always submitted to The Supreme irrespective of who and what is worshipped because HE IS EVERYTHING! Actually, there is no act that is not a worship in the whole universe because all acts and the very action is ever submitted to THAT ... Karma Brahmodbhavam viddhi! Therefore, there is no problem in worshipping any idol of your choice! However, one should be very cognizant that worshipping is FOR ONE'S OWN BENEFIT! GOD does not need any. The very notion that "HE may" drops the very god into a mere image, an inert, irresponsive and indifferent idol generating kind of desolation within the seeker.

Idolization is natural to any being. One puts forth one's life with idolization mother, then father, etc. Idolization is the natural way of learning survival, imbibing the acts of survival that the idol exhibits and suggests. Since, idolization is so natural to everyone, it is the easiest approach for seeking Truth as well and hence promoted heavily in our scriptures. But, it is worthwhile noting certain subtleties here!

There are two types of worship: Poojaa and Upaasanaa. Both are meant for spiritual upliftment in the seeker's appreciation and are prescribed depending upon the nature of seeker.

Poojaa is one where the seeker submits oneself completely to another entity. An idol becomes a must in such an act. The worshipped entity ought to be relatively superior to the worshipper. The surrender becomes stronger as the worshipper perceives deeper sense of reverence toward the worshipped, The Idol. The prescription on Poojaa is to expand the very idol - be it an idea or an idol, or a picture or a person or nature or earth or sun or anything else - to its universal presence. Though the prescription is almost foolproof in its intent of dropping ego (Manonaasha) and realization (Aatmabodha), it has a subtle residual problem:

(1) Manonaasha: A trace of ego is shifted into the idol instead. For example, the worshippers often become violent if their idols are not respected in any form.

(2) Aatmabodha: The seekers stumble on mental blocks as the idol perceived is limited in its existential sense. Often, the seekers cannot break that barrier to appreciate the universal awareness.

As far as the worshipper (Poojaari) is always reminded of Poojaa's true intent, Poojaa is the most feasible, approachable and effective path for a seeker.

Upaasana, on other hand, means a paradigm shift. As the scripts says, the fellow within seems to be split in two - Ritam pibantou sukritasya loke ... one actively enjoying the ever-changeful world and another staying without any changes just as a witness. Upaasanaa is to shift oneself (as an individual perceived as doer, knower as well as enjoyer) to an epicenter in one's own perceived universe, to become the witness in spite of being active in this world. ANY ACT WHERE ONE IS ABLE TO EXPERIENCE THE WITNESS IS VERILY UPAASANAA! Once THE WITNESS is experienced, EVERYTHING is experienced as THAT IS EVERYTHING!

As mentioned earlier Poojaa is the starting point for any as it is closest to one's nature of day-to-day survival. Therefore one needs to bridge between Poojaa and Upaasanaa. Accordingly, Upaasanaa is of two types - SaguNa and NirguNa.

SaguNopaasanaa leads the seeker with the Poojaa with a paradigm shift - offset yourself to a witness of both the worshipper and the worshipped. It provides an opportunity to witness subject as well as object OBJECTIVELY... an opportunity to appreciate the true nature of the individual as opposed to the idol involved! ... an opportunity to appreciate all individuals and all idols collectively!! ... an opportunity to peek at a potential reality beyond all perceived qualities (GuNas)!!!

NirguNopaasanaa raises from SaguNopaasanaa as the witness stand becomes stronger. The seeker graduates naturally to appreciate the merger of the two distinct entities - the worshipper and the idol in their presence (Vyaakrita, SaguNa)! The empowered witness enables one to see the inseparable conjugate pair in their absence (Avyaakrita, NirguNa) as well!! One starts realizing the SaguNa in NirguNa and vice versa!!! The realization starts dawning in the horizons of one's innate presence ... THE ONE THAT EVER IS remains AS EVER ... all worshippers, all idols and yet neither a worshipper nor an idol, but JUST THAT.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
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Respecting Idol worship, Respecting our Nation's/Team's Flag or Symbol, or Respecting our holy books are all alike.
In all of them we create a Form to evoke the sentiments. Thats the most easy and superior way for Humans to work for higher cause.

Human emotions quickly respond to external stimulus. We can stimulate them to move towards a higher or lower cause. Idols, Flags, books, symbols are the external stimulis whereby we can employ/direct the emotions towards higher cause.

regds,
rakesh

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Strange and beyond comprehension is this moorti-poojaa.
How can any idol represent the tattva or Paramaatmaa [assigned to be sarvavyaapak and anaadi and anant]?
What is to be said about polluting the air in several ways and worshipping pawan devataa?
The same is the case with cows. People prefer buffalo's creamy milk and consider cow's milk for the sick persons and children. Who cares what Bhai Sathyanarayan said? No man uses cow dung in marble floored rooms. Who (except one or two) will give gaumootra in liver trouble of kids instead of Liv-52 or alike?
Worshipping of idols in temples and letting the invalid and the diseased sleep hungry stomach in the neighbourhood.
Kabeer said,''paahan pooje se hari mile, to main poojoon pahaad ...."
What else remains there to learn?
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please read the attached Article by Swamiji from "Gita Darpan" published by Gita Press. Let us know if this has been helpful. Sadhaks please express your insights from the "scriptures"/Gita, regarding this topic. Ram Ram

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

On Idol Worship in the Gita

Ye sanatana dharmasthaah sraddhaa prema samanvitah |

Murti pujan na kurvanti murtau tu prabhu pujanam ||

According to our eternal Vedic principles devotees do not worship idols, rather they worship only God. It means God (Supreme Consciousness) pervades everywhere, however, to be particularly aware of Him, a "murti" (no exact translation, idol is being used) is created for worshiping Him. By doing so, meditation and thinking about God can takes place very easily and continuously.

If it is the "murti" that is being worshiped, then a devotee should have the sentiments within of it being a "murti", that it is stone from a particular mountain, it was created by some person, and brought here by another! In other words, O' Lord of stones, you please lead me to my salvation. However, no one says such a thing at all. Then how is it considered "murti" idol worship? Therefore devotees do not do idol worship, however they worship God in the "murti". This sort of worship is the beginning of devotion. This worship continues even when a devotee attains perfection.

Regarding "murti puja" the Lord declares in the Gita, "Devotees prostrating before Me worship Me with devotion. (9/14); "Whoever offers Me with devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I accept that pious offering of the pure in heart" (9/26); "Worship of God (in his five forms Visnu, Siva, Durga, Ganesa and Sun-God, of the twice born, of teachers (including parents and elders) and of the wise liberated souls this is called austerity of the body (17/14). If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita.

In the same manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. In other words, to experience "God is everywhere," worship of cow are an immense aid. This is because the worshiper, has begun to believe that "God is everywhere". On the other hand he who does not worship anything, and only makes up talks, he cannot realize that "God is everywhere". It means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline.

Besides worship of God, to worship body made of bones and flesh, in other words, to adorn our bodies with make-up, beautiful ornaments and clothing and building luxurious homes and decorating it with beautiful objects, is nothing but worship of idols which will lead to ruin.

** Something Worth Knowing **

Generally all the believers hold the opinion that God pervades everywhere; But those who have started worshiping Him through the medium of an "murti" or the Veda, the Sun, the pipal, the tulsi plant or cow etc. are really speaking, believers in God's all pervasiveness. Because, those who accept the presence of God in an "murti", the Veda, the Sun, etc, will on their own, begin to believe in the presence of God everywhere, and in all beings. Those who accept the presence of God only in a "murti" etc., they have been called "Prakrta" (Beginners) (Srimadbhaag 11/2/47) because they have begun the practice of worshippng God in one place, in other words, they have turned towards (developed inclination for) God. But those who merely say that God pervades everywhere but don't hold any object in reverence, have no divine sentiments of worship and devotion, and they are not really called devotees because they simply articulate "God is Everywhere" but do not really believe it; that is, they have not really turned towards God.

Worship of God through the medium of a "murti" is a matter of faith rather than of reasoning. The glory of God is revealed to those who have faith in Him. The worship and adoration done by these devotees is accepted and partaken by God. Just like God ate the "Kitchadi" (cooked rice and lentil) prepared by Karma bai; God ate the tikkad (flat bread cake) from devotee Dhannaa; God drank the milk prepared by Meera bai etc. It means God manifest Himself in an idol, in front of a devotee who worships Him with faith and devotion.

Question: How do we know whether God accepts and partakes in the food offered to Him by devotees?

Answer: In God's kingdom things do not hold importance, rather it is the sentiments "bhaav" that are important. It is due to sentiments only that God partakes in the food and the actions offered to Him. When a devotee has the sentiments of feeding God from the core of his heart, then God begins to feel hungry. Because of the sentiments of the devotee, the food that is partaken by God, that thing does not remain perishable, rather it becomes divine. Even if there is some defect in the sentiment of devotion, He is satisfied merely by the offer of food to Him. For God to be satisfied, things and actions are not important, rather only the sentiments are important. The saints also declare that God relishes the simplest dishes offered with devotion but He rejects the most delicious dishes offered without devotion.

Once I came across a devotee who served a saint with great reverence. He said that he knew that the saint was thirsty. So when he took water for the saint, the saint drank it. Similarly a chaste wife comes to know when her husband is hungry and thirsty and what dish he will relish in lunch or dinner etc. When that dish is offered to the husband, he declares that today he wanted to have that very same dish. Similarly a devotee comes to know when God is hungry and thirsty and foods God wants to relish.

A few anecdotes may illustrate the point -

There was a priest in a temple. His favorite deity was Bal Gopal (Krishna, as a boy). He used to make small "ladoos" (a sweet dish, a sweetmeat in the form of a ball) and place it near his head at night while sleeping because children get hungry at night. On day he forgot to put the put the "ladoos" so at night Bal Gopal told him in his dream, that I am feeling hungry. There is a similar incident. There was an ascetic. Every year after Diwali, he offered cashews, almonds, pistachios, walnuts etc. to the Lord. One year the nuts became very expensive, so he began to offer peanuts to the Lord. One day the Lord said to him in a dream - What ! Are you going to feed me only peanuts? Thereafter he once again began to offer cashews, almonds etc. Before he had some doubts as to whether God was partaking in the offerings or not? But once God told him in his dreams, then all his doubts vanished. This means that when food is offered to God, He becomes hungry and he accepts and partakes in it.

There was a sage who had a great appetite. One day he fell very sick. Someone advised him to frequently drink the cow's milk, but to only drink that milk that remains after the calf has been fed. He followed the advice of first letting the calf be well-fed and thereafter extracting and drinking the remaining cow's milk was quite filling. After a few days he recovered and became healthy. The act of justice has so much power that it can cure even sickness and satisfy the sage, then what to speak of an object that is offered with devotion to God !

Everyone must have realized the fact that when a person offers you food with love and affection, then that food has extra-ordinary flavor, it is delicious and that food helps in maintaining divine traits in you. Even animals are no exception. They too are influenced by the sentiments. When a cow dies leaving its calf behind, the calf is fed on milk of another cow. The calf remains alive with that milk, but he does not become well-nourished. The same calf if he had drank the mother's milk, then the mother would lick his body with love, and feed him, by which even with a little bit of milk, the calf would have become well nourished and healthy. When even human beings and animals are affected by the sentiment of affection, then what to speak of God Who knows even the hearts, minds and sentiments of devotees? It was because of this devotion of Vidura's wife that Lord Krishna ate the banana peel offered with great devotion. Again it was out of affection of the gopis (that Lord Krishna ate curd and butter by snatching it from their hands. The Lord says to Brahma -

"Naivedhyam purato nyastam chakshushaa grhyate mayaa |

Rasam cha daasjihvaayaamshraami kamalobhdava ||

"O lord of the Lotus! I accept and partake in the food preparations put before Me through My eyes but I relish these foods through the tongue of My devotee."

I have also heard the saints saying that sometimes God sees the food offered to Him with devotion, sometimes He touches it and sometimes He also eats a part of it.

As the father of a child gets pleased if the child hands over something to him, then he is very pleased, the father lifts his hands and says to the child, and tells the child to grow big and tall. Was that thing unattainable by the father? Did the father get anything of great importance when the child gave that thing to him? No! The father is pleased, simply due to the sentiments of giving expressed by the child. Similarly, God is not lacking in anything. Nor does God desire anything. Then too God is pleased when a devotee expresses the sentiment of giving (making an offering). But those people who decorate the temples and the idols only for cheating people, who offer delicious dishes to Him to deceive, then God does not accept their offerings. Such people, don't actually worship God, rather they are worshiping money, individuals and selfishness.

Those who call the devotees who make offerings to God, who worship and revere God as hypocrites, and themselves being filled with pride, consider that they are better, and not hypocrites, then such individuals cannot attain salvation. Those who are engaged in performing virtuous deeds in whatever way they can, they are virtuous as such, while those who renounce virtuous deeds out of pride will reap adverse fruit for their evil deeds.

Question - The wicked break "murti" of God, then why does God not reveal His powers, His miracles ?

Answer - He who does not have good sentiments towards God's idols, he who is averse to those who worship and pray to God's idols, and he who destroys the idols out of hatred, why at all would God reveal His powers and His miracles in front of these people? God's greatness is revealed when there is faith.

Those who worship God in an Idol due to their sentiments - "God is present in this Idol" being weak, therefore when evil men who destroy the idols, God does not reveal His powers. But those devotees who have complete and implicit faith and belief that "God is present in this idol," then there God reveals His miraculous powers. Just like in Gujarat near Surat there is a temple of Lord Siva. In the emblem of Lord Siva (Siva Linga) there are many holes. The reason is that when the Muslims came to destroy that emblem of Lord Siva, innumerable large bees came out of that emblem and it caused the Muslims to flee.

The candidates who want to pass an examination respect the examiner because their success depends on him. But God has not to pass any one's examination. Because God's passing in exam does not make Him greater, and His failure does not make Him weaker. Just as when Ravana sends Maricha disguised as a fraudulent golden deer in order to put Lord Rama to test, the Lord chases the deer. It means that He fails in the test given to Him by Ravana. Now what certificate did he wish to get from Ravana! Similarly God fails in the examination given to him by those who destroy temples. The Lord does not reveal His glory to them because they come to Him with evil sentiments rather than as devotees.

A man according to his sentiments has different dealings with his wife, mother, and sister, though the female bodies are of a similar type. Similarly an idol made of stone, brass or silver is God for a devotee while for a non-believer it is merely an idol made of stone, brass or silver. The properties of each are different, but the sentiments are one and the same (i.e. it is the presence of God in the idol). It is in the sentiments that one can find God -

"God reside neither in wood nor in stone nor in clay but He resides in the sentiment; therefore sentiment plays an important role." (Garuda. Uttara 3/10)

There was an ascetic, that was free from worldly desires. He had two idols - one of the Lord Ganesa and another of a rat - both of the same weight. The ascetic had to go to Ramesvarama for pilgrimage. So he wanted to sell the two idols to a goldsmith. The goldsmith weighed the two and said that he would pay Rs. 500 for each. The ascetic said, "How can both cost the same? One of them is Lord Ganesa while the other is his vehicle." The goldsmith said, "Sir! I don't value Lord Ganesa or the rat; I value only gold". The ascetic's sight was only on Lord Ganesa and the rat whereas the goldsmith's sight was only on the gold. Similarly those who destroy idols perceive stone and brass etc., rather than God in the idol.

In fact all animate and inanimate beings and objects etc., are the manifestations of God. Those who have the sentiments and believe that God pervades every where, behold God in every being and object. But those who attach importance to the world, they behold the various beings and objects as separate. Similar it can be understood with the idols.

Question - The wicked break idols of God, then why does God not reveal His powers, His miracles ? (continued)

Answer: (continued) People worship the deities (idols) with faith, they sing glories and pray to the Lord; because they see something extra-ordinary in the idol; but those who destroy the idols, they too perceive something special in these idols. If they did not see anything special in these idols, then why would they only destroy the idols, why do they not break other stones? In other words, they too believe there is something extra-ordinary in the idol. It is only due to hatred for those who have faith and to want to cause pain and suffering to them that they destroy the idols.

Out of jealousy and egoism, some people, destroy the temples that were constructed according to the limits and boundaries established of customs and as prescribed in the scriptures and they destroy the idols that were invoked with the spirit of God (praan pratishthaa) through a formal process. They do so in order to hurt the feelings of believers, to distress them, to transgress their ethical propriety, and to earn their own name and fame. Out of that hatred, they destroy idols, to invoke pain and distress in the hearts of Hindus, for generations to come as these Hindus on seeing these broken deities are reminded. Such persons have to meet with an extremely evil fate. They go to the treacherous hells because their intentions are evil, to give pain and suffering to others, to destroy others. The outcome of evil intentions is also evil. But those who apply all their strength to protect the temples and the deities, and even sacrifice their lives, they meet with a good end because their intentions were good.

If we respect a learned man, then as such, we are revering the knowledge, not the person's body made of flesh and bones. Similarly those who believe in the presence of God in the deities (idols), they worship God only. Through the deities it is God only that is being revered, not the deity. Those who do not believe in God in a deity (idol), the glory of God is not revealed in front of them; whereas God's glories manifest in front of a believer.

Question: Why should we do murti puja (worship idols)? What is the need of Murti Puja (idolatry?

Answer: We should worship deities (idols) in order to increase the sentiment of devotion, to awaken that sentiment and to please God. It is also essential to get rid of the importance we have placed for this world in our inner faculties, and to get rid of the various attachments and infatuations to the world. By the worship of God through the deity (idol), by offering flower garlands, by adorning the Lord, by offering homage with kindled lamps and by offering various food preparations to the Lord are all very essential. The point is by worshiping the deities, we gain doubly our sentiment of devotion is awakened and enhanced and our "sense of mine" and attachment to the mundane objects is renounced.

Every person should hold one place in their heart, for which he is willing to renounce everything. That place may either be God, or a saint or great soul, or mother-father, or a teacher. By doing so, man's worldly sentiments are reduced and spiritual sentiments increase.

As part of a pilgrimage, a group of people were going around Kasi. A guide was showing them around the various temples and made them prostrate before the emblem of Lord Siva to worship Him. Among the group were a few modern day boys. They disliked paying their obeisance at the various different places and so they remarked. "What is the benefit of prostrating so often at the various deities? There was a saint who listened to them. He said to the boys. Brothers, just as you reside in this body made of flesh and bones, so does God reside in the idol. Your life spam is fairly short, whereas, the life span of this deity of Lord Siva is significantly longer. Therefore from the perspective of years of life, the Shiv Linga is far older than you. From the perspective of purity if one sees then this body made of flesh and bones is far more impure than this deity made of stone. From the perspective of strength, this stone is far stronger than these bones. If you want to test this, surely you strike your head against this stone and see for yourself which one breaks - your head or the stone deity. You have sinful qualities and bad conduct, whereas this deity is flawless. The point is that the deity (idol) is better and great in all respects. Therefore the deity is worth worshiping. It is venerable. You consider your name's praise and blame as your own praise and blame, your body's honor and dishonor, as your own honor and dishonor, then will God not consider the worship, eulogy and prayer offered to Him in the idol as His own? O' Brother! In fact your name and body which are praised and honored are not your own self, yet you become pleased by praise and honor. But God pervades the entire universe including the idols. Therefore He is present also in the deities as it too is a form of God. Will God not be pleased while we worship Him in the idol? The extent to which we express our sentiments of worship for Him, God will be that much more pleased with us.

Question: Why should we do murti puja (worship idols)? What is the need of Murti Puja (idolatry? (continued)

Answer: (continued) He who is a believer in God, even though he may restrain himself from worship of idols, but regardless, worship of idols takes place through him. Now how is that? He believes and follows the ordinances of the Vedas, then that too is worship of idols as Vedas too (being written book) are idols only. Revering the Vedas is a form of idol worship only. Similarly reverence and service to the preceptor (guru), to parents and guest etc., to serve them with food, water, clothing etc is a form of idol worship. Their bodies are insentient but by revering their bodies, they too are being revered, by which they are pleased. The point is that man wherever, whoever, in which ever form he respects and reveres, it is all worship of idols. If man worships the idol with deep sentiments, then that worship is God's worship only.

There was a recluse who lived under an umbrella and worshiped an idol of Lord Visnu made of black stone (Shaligram). Some people who did not believe in idol worship, they did not like this Babaji's form of worship. They complained about him to Mr. Hook an English Officer, hat he was insulting the all-pervading God by worshiping this black stone idol. Mr. Hook angrily ordered the recluse to leave that place for good. The next day the recluse made a statue of Mr. Hook and began to beat it with his shoe by demonstrating in front of the people and calling the statue of Mr. Hook an idiot. This incident was brought to the attention of Mr. Hook. He again called the recluse and asked him why he was insulting him in that way. The recluse replied that he did not insult him at all but he was insulting this foolish statue of his. After saying this he kicked the statue with his shoes. Mr. Hook said that insulting my statue, is insulting me only. The recluse said, that you are not in this statue (i.e. idol) at all, then too even simply for name sake you are so very much affected. Our God is in all space, time, things, etc; Thus he who with faith worships God in an idol, then is this revering God or not? Hearing his reasoning, Mr. Hook said to the recluse, that he could go to his place and worship the idol free as he wished.

Question - Some people eat or drink forbidden things such as meat or beer etc. in the temple premises or nearby. Why does God not prevent them from doing so?

Answer Children play mischievous games in front of their parents; but parents don't punish them because they think that children are our very own, out of ignorance and innocent they are not aware. Similarly God also thinks that they are my very own ignorant children. Therefore God's sight does not go towards our behavior at all. But those who eat or drink forbidden food and perform forbidden actions in the temple premises, they will have to suffer for their misdeeds.

Question Previously, Kabirji and a few other saints criticized idolatory, Why?

Answer - Saints and great souls manifest and reveal themselves according to the need of the hour and perform actions accordingly. When many fights broke out between the followers of the Siva and those following Vishnu, at that time Tulsidasji Maharaj composed the Ramcharitmanasa, by which the fights between the two came to an end. Many have written different commentaries on the Gita. As according to the need of the hour, the great souls received that particular inspiration in their hearts, and accordingly the commentaries were written. When the Baudha religion (Buddhism) was spreading by leaps and bounds, at that time Sankaracharya revealed Himself and propagated Sanatana Dharma. Similarly when the Muslims ruled over India and the temples as well as, idols were destroyed by them the saints such as Kabirji and other saints declared, "We need neither temples, nor idolatry because our God does not reside only in temples and idols but He pervades everywhere." In fact the intent of these saints was not to criticize idolatry but they meant to direct the people towards God.

Question Nowadays the times are not as they were before, the Muslims are not destroying the temples and idols. Then too why do the followers of a certain sect criticize idolatry and worship of God endowed with form?

Answer - To criticize any one is to have insistence on your own sect and ways; because those who criticize other sects (their beliefs and opinions), do not want to realize the essence of the Supreme Consciousness (Paramatmatattva), they do not want their own salvation, rather they want their individual form of worship, they want to expand their sect's numbers, they want to propagate their sect and organization. Believers in such sects and groups will not realize God. Those who have insistence of their own sect, organizations and groups, they are of certain system of opinions, doctrines, religious, philosophical persuasions and such people's talks are not worth believing and accepting -

People who have insistence on their own sect, belief systems and opinions, cannot know the Essence (tattva). (Manas 1/115/4)

Those who believe in the attributeless, formless God, criticize the worship of deities, then as such they are belittling their All Pervading One, because from their beliefs and opinions, that formless God does not pervade at the places where there are idols. In other words, their formless God is in certain space only (not everywhere). If they accepted the formless God even in the idol, then why would they criticize the one endowed with form? Secondly, those who worship the formless, believe that God is neither endowed with form, nor does he incarnate (as an avatar); it means that their Omnipotent, Almighty God, is incapable to (incarnate) and to be endowed with form, in other words, that Paramatma is not Almighty. But in fact Paramatma is not so. "He is being (manifested) and non-being (unmanifested) (Gita 9/19). So instead of getting entangled about His form etc., we should worship Him according to our own belief.

We must think that do we want our salvation, or do we want to engage in controversies and arguments about formless-with form etc.? If according to our interest and inclination, if we utilize our time in worship of either God endowed with form or The Formless then it will lead to spiritual progress.

"Tere bhaave jo karo bhalo burou sansaar |

"Narayan" tu baithike aapnou bhuvan buhaar ||

But if we insist on fighting then there are many mundane affairs in this world pertaining to wealth and property etc., which people can fight over. But after pursuing the spiritual path, why must we induce fights? Why should we unnecessarily waste our time and energy in condemning and criticizing the ways of worship of other sects? Rather, while we are engaged in worship, how did we find the time to criticize other people's faith? The amount of time we wasted in insulting and blaming other sects and their ways of worship, that much time if we followed our own spiritual path with faith, reverence and devotion then we would be greatly benefited.

Those saints that have criticized idolatry, they have (instead of idolatry) laid special emphasis on chanting the name of God, good company, words of spiritual guide, contemplation on God, meditation etc. But the people who have renounced idolatry and at the same time are not promptly engaged in chanting the name of God and meditation etc., they are deprived of both the benefits! Instead of them, those that worship idols are superior because at least they worship God according to their own belief system.

Some believers may argue that they condemn other ways of worship in order to intensify their own way of worship and to develop exclusive devotion for it. The answer is that a devotee can't develop exclusive devotion to his favorite Deity or to his way of worship by condemning others ways, because it is only He who assumes different names and forms. He is attributeless, as well as, endowed with attributes. Therefore the believers of different sects believing in different ways of worship should respect one another because everyone worships the same God. Those that are with faith and belief, with a simple straight-forward sentiments engaged in the worship of their Beloved (Ishtha), by condemning their Beloved, their way of worship, their heart will be hurt, it will feel a blow, whereby they will be pained and will suffer, then those who have condemned them will incur grave sin, whereby their own way of worship will not lead them to perfection.

Condemning others in the name of exclusive devotion is an evil disguised as a virtue. It is easy to escape an evil by considering it an evil, but it is very difficult to escape an evil if it appears as a disguised virtue. Ravana and Kalanemi disguised as Saints could deceive Sita and Hanumana repectively. Similarly Arjuna also recoiled from fighting, that is doing his dharma (i.e. duty) being a member of the warrior class, thinking that he would incur sin by killing his kinsmen. So in Arjuna also he evil of unmanliness appeared as disguised non-violence and virtue. Therefore much effort was required by Lord Krishna in preaching the lengthy gospel of the Gita. If the evil appeared in Arjuna in the form of an evil, then Lord could easily remove it. Similarly if the evil of condemnation appears in us in the form of exclusive devotion, we should not mislead ourselves to ruin by wasting our precious time, capabilities, understanding etc. in condemning others. But an aspirant should want that with great caution and alertness, he must utilize his resources (time, abilities, capabilities etc) in worshipping his favorite Deity.

Those saints that have criticized idolatry, they have (instead of idolatry) laid special emphasis on chanting the name of God, good company, words of spiritual guide, contemplation on God, meditation etc. But the people who have renounced idolatry and at the same time are not promptly engaged in chanting the name of God and meditation etc., they are deprived of both the benefits! Instead of them, those that worship idols are superior because at least they worship God according to their own belief system.

Some believers may argue that they condemn other ways of worship in order to intensify their own way of worship and to develop exclusive devotion for it. The answer is that a devotee can't develop exclusive devotion to his favorite Deity or to his way of worship by condemning others ways, because it is only He who assumes different names and forms. He is attributeless, as well as, endowed with attributes. Therefore the believers of different sects believing in different ways of worship should respect one another because everyone worships the same God. Those that are with faith and belief, with a simple straight-forward sentiments engaged in the worship of their Beloved (Ishtha), by condemning their Beloved, their way of worship, their heart will be hurt, it will feel a blow, whereby they will be pained and will suffer, then those who have condemned them will incur grave sin, whereby their own way of worship will not lead them to perfection.

Condemning others in the name of exclusive devotion is an evil disguised as a virtue. It is easy to escape an evil by considering it an evil, but it is very difficult to escape an evil if it appears as a disguised virtue. Ravana and Kalanemi disguised as Saints could deceive Sita and Hanumana repectively. Similarly Arjuna also recoiled from fighting, that is doing his dharma (i.e. duty) being a member of the warrior class, thinking that he would incur sin by killing his kinsmen. So in Arjuna also he evil of unmanliness appeared as disguised non-violence and virtue. Therefore much effort was required by Lord Krishna in preaching the lengthy gospel of the Gita. If the evil appeared in Arjuna in the form of an evil, then Lord could easily remove it. Similarly if the evil of condemnation appears in us in the form of exclusive devotion, we should not mislead ourselves to ruin by wasting our precious time, capabilities, understanding etc. in condemning others. But an aspirant should want that with great caution and alertness, he must utilize his resources (time, abilities, capabilities etc) in worshipping his favorite Deity.

Question: How is "Svayambhu" (Self-Existent) idol sculptured?

Answer This question can arise only if "Svayambhu" (self-existent) idol is sculpted. They are not sculpted at all. They simply manifest (Reveals themselves), therefore it is called self-existent; or else why would it be "Svayambhu"?

Question How to know whether an "murti" idol is self-existent "Svayambhu" or sculptured?

Answer Every person cannot know it (i.e. recognize a self-existent idol). As a person recognizes an old acquaintance, so does a devotee who has vision of God recognize a self-existent idol.

Question What is the difference if a person worships a sculpted "murti" idol or a self-existent "Svayambhu" idol?

Answer - If a devotee has belief and faith, then worshiping the sages in an emblem of sacrificial grass or Lord Ganesa through betel-nut proves beneficial. Similarly if a devotee beholds and worships the sculptured idol, it leads him to spiritual progress. But worshiping a self-existent idol and having belief and faith leads to special and quick spiritual progress. Just like on listening to the discourse of a saint in person is far more beneficial than reading his discourse from a book, so is worship of a self-existent idol more beneficial. Sanjaya also declares the same about the gospel of the Gita that he has heard the supreme and most profound gospel direct from Lord Krishna (Gita 18/75).

Question What is the reason that a person is easily and suddenly attached to the world but he is not easily attached to God?

Answer - The reason is that a person regards himself as body. By identifying himself with the body, he is easily attached to the world because the body has its identity with the world. Homogeneous entities are suddenly attached to each other as people of the same social order and same profession etc., are easily connected. Just as those who consider themselves to be Brahmin, Kshatriya , become connected with Brahmin, Kshatriya, and those who consider themselves to be wise, traders, etc, they easily establish relation with others that are wise, traders etc., - "Samaansheel-vyasaneshu sakhyam" A man does not directly have vision of God and he considers himself to be an idol (body), then for such a one, to have the sentiments of the presence of God in the "murti" idol will be easy. IN other words, as long as there is a sense of Me and mine-ness, till then one should worship idol of God. Even after God-Realization he should not renounce worshiping the idol, because the spiritual discipline that was beneficial to him, he must remain ever grateful to it, it must not be renounced.

From book in Hindi "Gita Darpan" by Swami Ramsukhdasji

The message is available in HINDI titled "GITA MEIN MURTI PUJA" in July 2010 Folder at: http://www.satcharcha.blogspot.com/

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[gita-talk] Re: Need Advice on Marriage for One Who is Divorced

2012-01-26T07:51:00.000-08:00

Hare Krshna
Dear Sadhaks,
I Am a divorced man and finding many hurdles in getting married inspite of everything being well.
Kindly advice what is the solution as per Our great religion
-Warm Regards
HS

-----------------------------------------------
Hare Krshna
Dear NS
I do feel very sorry for what has happened
to you however your observations indicate
that Men are the culprit in such circumstances
but it does nor have to be that always as in some cases women also are at fault and have some other evil desires hence request you not to assume,advice and righteous without knowing the same fully
Regards
HS

-----------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Quote:

Nothing will ever be well in the life of people who abuse their spouses. Rather than feel sorry for yourself, go to your wife and seek her forgiveness.Did she divorce you--seek her forgiveness for forcing her to make her take such a step.If you did the divorcing---God help your soul....

Unquote

Yes...you are right...absolutely right. It is a law that if you disrespect good food, or good person or good employer or good servant or good friend or good spouse..anything good YOU NEVER GET THAT AGAIN...NEVER..as a Law. This is because you disrespected good people. You made gross misuse of people and things. It is a Law of Nature. It never fails. Hence I agree: "Nothing will ever be well in the life of those people who abuse their spouses" ! It can not be otherwise !

Hence it is a ghastly sin as per Scriptures to divorce wife. Punishments are inevitable. It is said God can forgive you but not Mother Nature. You must reap what you sow.

What is the yardstick of virtue (Punya) or sinning (Paap) ?

Saints have said :

CHAAR VED SHATH SHASHTRA MAIN BAAT MILI HAI DOY !

SUKH DEEJE SUKH HOY HAI, DUKH DEEJE DUKH HOY !!

After deeply studying 4 Vedas and 6 principal Scriptures, 2 conclusions clearly emerge. If you give happiness to others, you will become happy. If you give sorrows to others, you will become sorrowful.

I am reminded here of a story I heard about Lord Buddha from some elder:

Buddha after becoming a Jnani returned to his native village. (He had left his young wife and newly born child in the past.) People in the village reminded him of his home. He agreed to visit his home again. His wife welcomed him and Buddha also met his son who was then adult . Suddenly learned wife of Buddha asked him a question. She said: Lord Buddha ! The thing (element) for which you left home in the night like a thief, leaving behind a helpless wife and toddler child , was that thing not there in the home ? Buddha said: Devi ! That thing was here only at the home and no where else but had I not loitered outside I would not have realised the same.

Buddha was stating that God resides in DUTY ! Another name of Dharma is DUTY !! Once you marry in witness of fire it is your sacred duty to run the family , take care of your better half , raise children and add to the cause of Paramatma by making the 'shrishti chakra' continue. You can not inflict pains and sorrows on your family members during that duty. You opt for a householder's life to give them happiness, to serve them so that you repay your prior debts and not expect anything in return from them ie not incur any new debts...and thus emancipate yourself !! It is a life time commitment for service. It is a DUTY. It is your ONLY DHARMA. If you fail here, you sin.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------

Hare Krsna,

Dear HS,

Does being divorced make you "free" to marry again? Did you marry according to Vedic/Hindu marriage ceremony? Do you know that the word divorce is nowhere in Vedic scriptures and there is no Sanskrit/Hindi equivalent to it?

My husband was abusive to me from our wedding night and the abuse continued until I had to leave because of illness. Life in his house made me so sick and he sent me away telling my Mother to take care of me and when I was well I should return. My Mother refused to allow me to go back with the fear that I will die. My husband ignored me for years and only came when we had a death in our home. He came for the funeral and for the time he spent he did not offer one word of comfort to any of us. All he was concerned with was that I did not introduce him properly to the people who came. Being in grief I needed emotional
and even physical support and got zero. In grief, life was empty for me and I lost hope in everything.

The man that I was married to asked to come visit after 7 years and while I was reluctant at first I allowed him to do so. While here, we both agreed to give the marriage one last chance. He left came back again and all was well. Then he left and suddenly became the angry cruel person again.It scared me again,as it brought back memories that I hoped to never see again. Then he came to visit and on the second day of his stay, I fell down and broke my ankle. We went to the
hospital, and my foot was put into a cast. I was unable to walk, he brought me home,then calmly told me he is leaving in the morning.I begged him to stay and he refused to listen. He left the next day and 2 ladies were left alone to fend for themselves. My sister had to help me to the washroom and do everything for me. I had surgery a few days later and since 6 weeks have not been allowed to walk still.

My husband calls himself a spiritual man and has several hindu groups where he loves to preach on everything. He is highly educated and yet this very man walked away and left his helpless wife. Why am I writing all of this? You say that you are divorced? Why did that happen? Which lady would walk away from a good man, muchless a good Dharmic man? The men here have excelled in their explanations about marriage especially Vyas Ji. Did you read what he said?

Hindu marriages are made a mockery today especially by people like the man who was married to me. He claimed how he wanted a religious wife and when he got one, he abused me because I was too religious and lived a satvika life.

Nothing will ever be well in the life of people who abuse their spouses. Rather than feel sorry for yourself, go to your wife and seek her forgiveness.Did she divorce you--seek her forgiveness for forcing her to make her take such a step.
If you did the divorcing---God help your soul....

Hare Krsna,
NS

-------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

Skipping of marriage by a human is highly beneficial to him spiritually particularly when considered with the fact that the only object of human life is liberation ! The pleasures and pains of procreation, family, association, mating etc are in abundance available in other life forms also and with much more freedom. In human life, marriage, children , family, home ..these are sources of huge bondage, attachments, duties and obstacles as compared with other options. Just one marriage, one association with one spouse, increases your association with the world in geometric proportions. You get attached/associated with Father in law, mother in law, bother in law...and so on. If your spouse has 100 relatives, you get equivalent number added to your list of relatives..just by one relationship with spouse. You also have a chance of very sticky relationship with Kamini (wife) ...it is very difficult to conquer this 'rasa-buddhi' in opposite sex particularly Kamini (female) ! But your chances of getting hugely bound to Kamini may be less , if you don't marry and do not taste the forbidden fruits at all. Then a lot more scope of sinning arises when you take responsibilities in a family ie when you choose Grahustha life (householders life) ! Bachelors/Brahmacharis/Sadhus do not have many responsibilities which a householder has...and they , thus, clearly have lesser bondage.

One of the greatest sages of Sanatan Dharma, and one of the greatest devotee of Paramatma, Maharishi Naarad, became very happy when he lost his mother at very young age. He became happy thinking responsibility got over and now I can devote more time to BhaktI of Bhagwaan !!! Sanatan Dharma scriptures are full of praise for those Sages who remained Brahmachaari (unmarried) and who practiced celibacy ! 'Brahmacharya' is highly recommended and desirable trait for every sadhak and yogi of Gita.

Hence , if circumstances become such that you must remain unmarried, it is special Grace of God upon you and you should , actually, become very happy upon receipt of such Grace. The life of a householder, undoubtedly, is very hard austerity as compared with other ashrams !!!

Hence be cheerful and blissful ! JAAHI VIDHI RAKHE RAAM TAHI VIDHI RAHIYE ! SITARAAM SITARAAM SITARAAM KAHIYE !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna.

my guruji say that divorce is just a paper or law given by government and the
most important part of marriage is the vows taken at shaadi.my guruji says even though my husband divorce me to marry someone else i am still married to my husband as per hindu marriage ceremony.guruji says there is no word of divorcee in hindu scriptures and divorce is created by muslims and christian and do not govern hindu marriages.guruji gets angry at the importance place on divorce and
when none is place on vows taken at shaadi. guruji says when man and woman take vows,they must take all measures to keep these vows and when these vows are kept that marriage will be good. divorce he says happen when there are no keeping of vows.

s.a
--------------------------------------------------------
donot agree with B.S.ur wife and other dependants are not only ur social but divine responsibility.u have vowed before the holy agni or some other form of divine authority ur committment and u must maintain it despite all odds of life.after all ur parents or sisters many times donot agree with u and are many times hostile.u donot desert them because they are ur own.then why wife,who is ur ordained life companion and a mother of your children very much like u are a son of your parent.Remember,that ur wife holds the status of a mother in the family the very same way,your mother,your grandmother held at their time.you adore them,why then this lady.

SUBHASH CHANDER TEWARI

--------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krshna
Thank You all for the inputs,it was certainly very enlightening,while I have come to understand that divorce is not an option and or a solution however this did occur,yes it "occured" for reasons beyond control and comprehension,but I will take things from here and I Am indeed very thankful again to all and very happy to be a part of this group where one can share and is guided through the all supreme scriptures and knowledge of Our Glorious religion
HS

------------------------------------------------
Dear HS,
Become like Adi Sankara. You are lucky. Dont marry and suffer again. Few men and woman while they were unmarried they devoted their life to Bagavan and reached most blissful state. Whereas you want to go back Asti.
B.S

--------------------------------------------------
It shall be best if both of you can reconcile and look for companionship without any complaint about the past.IT will not be anything short of a second marriage.
subhashtewari

-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

What does 'marital relationship' signify spiritually? Gita says: Karmanu bandhini manushya loke' ( Humanity is bound by karmas ie by prior contractal obligations). Certain relations in human life are clearly based on carried forward obligations. Like we never selected our parents , we got them based on prior life karmas. Similarly, however intelligent or knowldgeable a person may claim, the fact is that you get spouse also based on prior life karmas ! There may be prior meetings, decision making process, deliberations, advices sought before marriage from both sides, even an intense liking for each other (called 'love' in modern language) ...but nothing is as serious as is the bondage created for each other in marriage. 'Marriage' is a huge bondage. That is why, the marriage is not compulsory in Sanatan Dharma, it is optional. Your emancipation (goal of human life) is not dependent upon your getting married.

Once you marry, once you call your wife as 'my' wife'or your husband as 'my' husband ..all the problems of spouse become your problems, instantly. as a law. But it is also a fact that as against wife, the responsibility of husband is much higher. Why? Because wife 'renounces' everything at the time of marriage. She renounces her home, her parents, her gotra, her surname, her friends, her dressing, her everything (which she had before marriage) , her body..what not ! She believes necessarily in husband and comes to husband's home leaving every thing behind. What does not she do? That 'tyaag' at the outset itself, makes her many times qualitatively superior to husband. Precisely therefore, Sanatan Dharma Scriptures clearly detest and forbid divorce or cruelty ! What more 'tyaag' a lady can do to begin with? It then becomes the turn of husband to reciprocate by adjusting his ego, comforts, views, conduct, habits, attitude, perception and make marriage a success. It is responsibility of male and male alone to ensure successful marital life. Divorce means failure to adjust together. Lack of renunciation of ego, stands, views, arrogance...! Whose duty it is, once lady has necessarily left (renounced) everything behind?

Male, in particular, can't complain , when it is his turn to 'renounce' ! Wife begins marital life by renunciation and surrender only. Therefore, however she is, whatever she is ...it is the responsibility of husband to adjust ... Even if she is 100% wrong. That is it ! Scriptures are unanimous that it is a very very big sin to divorce wife.

There was one Saint by the name Koobaji ! His wife fled with other person, but after some time came back . Koobaji arranged for her sustenance though again did not accept her as wife. But he ensured she lived comfortably.

Rightly therefore, Scriptures state: Debt on a child of his/her mother is 100 times more than the debt of father ! Why ?

In India , a husband is often referred as "Pati Parameshwar' ( Husband as good as Paramatma)_ ! Why ? Because

JUST AS: Rahati Na Prabhu Chit Chook Hiye Kee (Paramatma does not look at fault of Jeevas..).However you are, once you surrender, once you renounce yourself at His feet,.. the matter ends. It is now responsibility of Parameshwar to take care of you, to ensure you are blissful, happy ! If God can not ensure that, then how is He God?

SIMILARLY : It is responsibility of husband (so called Pati 'Parameshwar' ) to take care of wife , come what may, irrespective of however and whatever she is...! Marriage necessarily begins with renunciation and surrender by her. Matter ends. It is now for husband to ensure she is happy and blissful. If husband can not ensure that...he sins !!!

Aah...Jeevas are after all Jeevas only ! They are not Jagdish !!! To feel proud and arrogant that 'I am husband, Pati, Parameshwar' is one thing, and to live/adjust / renounce your comforts, ego, in favour of wife is another !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhak,

Marriage, then divorce, then again trying to get married..........be very clear at present this is not the best choice for you.

You need to go through the process of self analyzation and self assesment. You need to know who you really are ? Not as a personality but as a reality. Who am I ? Contemplate on this question. Meditate on this at least 20 minitues twice a day for 48 days.

Read Sadhak sanjeevani, and other books of Swami Ramsukhdasji. Read Bhagwat gita. Contemplate on its meaning, as a true sadhak/seeker, first discover the TRUTH,

Dedicate at least couple of years for spiritual advancement.After reaching a certain level in tapascharya and sadhna, you will know what is right for you and then you will be able to create what is needed most in your life.

May all good and auspicious things manifest in your life.

Love and regards,
Sadhna

----------------------------------------------

Dear HS, Namaste!
The best way is to study our great Religion, as you say it is, yourself first to see what it says about Marriage and divorce.
Yet from a practical point of view I would say this.
Hurdles you find are obvious as any man/woman or parents will think hard before they commit to the marriage with one who is divorced!
This can be appreciated by asking what would you do if you have to marry a divorced one or are parents of such a person!
Now that you are already divorced, I am not suggesting to find faults with partner or dwell on your own faults!
You have to learn lessons from this failure, and make sure never to repeat them again!
That means to be ego-less in relationship, give in and not always have your ways.
In Marriage both partners are equally important in decision making. Parents on both sides are also of equal importance.
Understand another person from her/his point of views!
Make your life God-centered above all!
Remain prayerful!
Wait patiently, don't be in a hurry to marry or try to buy the marriage!
Trust God and leave it to Him totally! Then accept whatever comes as a result!
Namaskar..................Pratap Bhatt

------------------------------------------------
Marriage spiritual intent social needs socio-economical realities

I would emphasize moderator's comments upfront. Looking for approval for divorce from scriptures is futile as it is opposed to the very spiritual intent of marriage! I would add further looking toward divorce as an escape route in the name of alternative social norms is neither healthy ... your sadness in loneliness is its living proof!!

Copulative pleasures and reproductive urges are the basic animal instincts the humans continue with. Marriage is an institution deployed by most religions for moderating such craves for society's benefit at large and for enabling individuals to practice spirituality while coping with the animal instincts from within as well as around.

The true value of marriage is in the socio-economical harmony and unity it promotes between two individuals and the families/friends/societies behind them. It is a graceful opportunity to develop oneself toward matured appreciation of life in general - (1) empathy toward a different individual and his/her standpoint, (2) tolerance toward opposed and alien views and values that the spouse hails from, (3) respect toward other individuals as they are, (4) Cooperation toward a holistic prosperity - prosperity in wealth, health and spirit ... !

The deeper value in the same institution is (1) to learn the intricacies of human behaviors, relations and emotions to appreciate one's own Vaasanaa's at deeper levels on one hand; and (2) appreciate oneself in others - parents, wife, children, etc. on the other hand. It is an excellent spiritual tool available to us to work within the framework of survival we are born into. It allows us to appreciate our basic instincts at closer quarters on one hand and teaches us to appreciate the presence of oneself beyond one's body and mind cluster. It allows one to reduce the baggage of ego-centric emotions, ignorance and inertia (Manonaasha) and enables one to break the individual barriers built within so as to appreciate the universal presence of The Self beyond (Aatmabodha).

DIVORCE SHOULD NOT BE A CHOICE! However, keeping the socio-economical changes around in mind, it could be the last, THE VERY LAST, choice in a marriage ... To be sought ONLY when the same opportunity turns hostile pushing the individuals involved into intolerable miseries ONLY when all the avenues to break open a gate toward its true intent - social harmony and spiritual awareness ... OR ONLY IF if anyone is subjugated to inhumane socio-economical oppression and physical exploitation in the name of marital bond. Please note that most divorces happen today ONLY DUE TO EGO-CLASH ... all such unfortunate events can be averted with relative ease by spiritual empowerment from within and soical appreciation around ... doom alone befits those who move toward divorce on the grounds of ego!

Hope you will get another opportunity to realize what a true marriage means. Hope you get a partner who appreciates its values. Personal appreciation within is most often the hurdle. One who is clear within alone can bring clarity around. Therefore, more than anything else, wish that you develop the right perspectives of marriage and develop an innate respect toward the same.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------

Marry your divorced wife as if she is a virgin and start new life with her. Marrying another female for Happy Family Life is (for you) just like searching a black cat in a pitch dark room.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

-----------------------------------------------

Hari Om

An advice has been sought from this Divine Forum regarding re-marriage by a divorced Jeeva. We don't know what is the age of Jeeva, why did divorce took place etc. Hence answer has to be accordingly appropriate.

'To marry' is not the ideal most. It is not at all the goal of 'human beings' ! The goal of humanity is emancipation.

However, in order to sustain the creation and let humans 'taste' as a 'sample' the futile worldly 'bhogas' and to get rid of them thereby, the concept of marriage has been approved by Sanatan Dharma. (Your desires have not ceased. Marry, and see what futile pleasures 'bhogas' and 'attachment/association' give you, presume that all in the world have such bhogas /associations and such futile pleasures only , watch the consequences of them and develop dispassion/ detachment for it, and renounce the very desire for attachment/ bhogas ) ! But getting married, has its own huge duties and responsibilities. You can't get 'married' to enjoy 'mating' and 'similarity of opinion/object' ! You get married because your desire to taste worldly bhogas is not yet satiated, you still want 'attachment' with world/people and JUST AS: an affectionate father buys a toy for toddler to please him, the religion permits you to get married. There is no direct co-relation of marriage with a Jeeva's emancipation but a life of Grihastha has as much scope of emancipation as has a life of say student, brahmachari or sadhu.

You have been divorced. You have had one failure already. You have already tasted the 'bhogas' and has tried 'worldly attachment' and are now at the receiving end of its consequences. 'Successful marriage' is not some compulsory test which you must pass by trying it again and again. You entered the arena of 'marriage' without having any acumen for the same, and failed. The best way forward, now, for you is to stop this desire of marrying again. You could not adjust your self in first marriage. Marriage is not some 'fun' , it entails an austerity of very high order. Even if, your spouse was 100% wrong, it was your duty to continue with marriage, sustain her, sacrifice your own ego, pleasures, comforts for her ego, comforts and pleasures. It was your duty. Now my sincere recommendation to you is to turn towards God, take a vow not to marry again, devote your balance life as a celibate, do social service, and fulfill the goal of human birth. Remember the goal of human birth is emancipation and not 'mating' and developing more attachments.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------

Per my understanding, it is in hindu religion that a man can marry after the death of his wife or a divorce but if a woman does so she has to face the ire of the society ,but itis not so much today as it used to be for the previous generations ,life of a widow was just very troubled one. any way every body knows where the shoe pinches ,so no advise only god can help .jai shree krishna

--------------------------------------------
The wonderful article on marriage we should send it to all youngsters who are in need of such advices. i as a senior citizen mothr and wife for over five decades and an advocate too am very much overwhelmed with that jayashree sarathy

-------------------------------------------
Shree Hari Ram Ram

This may appear harsh but Swamiji has shared that "No where do the scriptures say for a man to divorce his wife...."

Please carefully read "How to Lead a Householder Life" It will provide lot of insights into relationships.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english%20book%20layout/How%20vto%20lead%20a%20house%20hold%20life/main.html

All situations are for one's upliftment and growth. May be God has some other plans for you. Sincerely and honestly Pray to God. He can be your best guide and adviser!

Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: Today's Need - Regain Vedic Culture from the Clutches of Politics, HOW?

2012-01-26T07:49:00.000-08:00

Namaste,
What today needed is recover our vedic country from clutches of
politics. Politics are corrupting the whole country, by bringing
under it, judges, police, security, finance etc. Other things like cow
slaughter, religion, dharma etc will get automatically rescued. How to
solve this is our question?
B.Sathyanarayan

===============================================

What is needed and what isn't needed, varies from individual to individual as every individual is 'unique' [there happened no repetitions in Nature and so what has passed, can't be recovered to happen again] and what any individual thinks, not necessarily it is the thought of all others.
Moreover, even Krishna didn't say to recover the past in verse 8 of chapter 4 Gita Madhurya page 51. Krishna said to establish [not to re-cover or re-establish righteousness only, NOT religions etc].
What has passed away, will never reoccur.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

--------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
" Mamaivamso jivaloke,
Jivabhuta sanatanah"

(Gitaji! 15, 7)

Which means,
' The living entities in this world are my eternal fragments. '
God is in every life. Once we realize that, then we treat every one with respect and compassion.
Truth prevails once we learn to see the Lord everywhere. God is truth and truth is God. When we treat the other person, the way we want to be treated, then there is no question of corruption or dishonesty.
Devotional service in the form of chanting the HolyNames,makes us pure. Once we are purified, then we see heaven on earth.
Thank you.
Prasad. A. Iragavarapu, MD

--------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Question is Who are We? and Who is God?

2012-01-25T19:56:00.000-08:00

Shree Hari Ram Ram

This brings a closure to this post. thank you all.
gita talk moderators, ram ram

--------------------------------------------

Interesting.......Question is who are we? and who is God?

SJ

--------------------------------------------

very very enlightening posts ,vyas nb,and pratap bhatt bhai --you people have explained god who we are in really very nice way ,thanks .jai shree krishnaÂ

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Hari Om

We get a lot of inputs from Scriptures and Realised Souls, Saints and Sages about our Eternal Father, Param Pita Parameshwar. To His children, viz to us, the most important thing is not as to HOW IS HE but is that HE IS OURS and WE ARE HIS . A child does not look at the traits of mother, does not know as to how is she of him/her...a child has no doubt , however, that MOTHER IS MINE.

You can't get peace till you get Him. Like you He too is very eager to meet with you. You may forget Him but He never forgets you, He never disowns you. This world (Jagat) has been made by Paramatma (Jagdish) for you (Jeeva), but you have been made by Paramatma for Himself. Hence in this Jagat, whatever happens with reference to you is ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY for your turning towards Him, rushing towards Him. All Laws of Mother Nature operating in this Jagat are for inviting your attention and for attracting you towards Him. Paramatma becomes very happy when you say: O Lord..I am yours. He becomes very happy just as a father becomes very happy when child claims rights over him.

It is endeavour of Paramatma and His Laws that whenever you connect yourself with Jagat, He ensures your disconnection with Jagat. Why? So that you may get attracted to Yoga (permanent connection with Paramatma). He never let's you get peace, happiness while you are worldly. Why? So that you may turn towards Him. He gives you sorrows. Why? So that you may renounce the desire for the world. If you take one step towards Him, He takes 10 .Why? So that you may unite with your Father faster. He strengthens your belief in Him. Why? So that you do not despair. If reciprocates to your striving as you see Him in your striving. Why? So that you remain enthusiastic and not lose focus.

List is endless. Everything which is done by Nature, everything which happens in this world, every Law and provision, every incidence, every situation, every circumstance, every status...everything has ONLY ONLY one goal: So that Jeeva connects with Jagdish and disconnects with Jagat.

Says Lord in 9:10: Under My superintendence Nature has created this world to be EVERCHANGING.

Why? So that Jeeva may rush towards loving arms of his Eternal Father !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Who are we?Mostly we are parasites born on and brought up by earth,spend life and perish here.The most significant thing about us is that despite being insignificant in the universe,we have acquired significant knowledge and working capacity.All that we lack is harmonious attitude and good manners.Our achievements had been and are great.As regards who is god,I prefer not to reduce His stature with my humble words,nevertheless,I suggest you to analyse a picture of Lord Krishna as a central figure playing flute and various gopis acting to His charm.It was perhaps the same thing told to Devi Meerabai by Guru Ramanandji at Benarus.He alone is the male,all other are gopis.
subhashtewari

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Hari Om

Hey Humble Saadhakjee ! Hey Mahapurush !! Aapke message hriday ko gadgad kar dete hai ! Mera sadhuvaad!!

Ek varnan Prabhu ka ye bhi hai ki Ve anaadi hain, Ve Prakruti se pare hain, Purushottam hain, sadaiva Samata main sthir rahate hain, Deendayaal hain, Deenanath hain, Sarva Samartha hain, Sarvagya hain, Param Dayaalu hain, Keshav hain, Bhagat vatsal hain, Paramatma hain, Parampitaa hain, Parameshwar hain, Gopaal hain, Govind hain, Giridhar hain, Param paavan hain, ...! Swamiji ki kitaabo main ye varnan bhi to aaya hee hoga naa, Maanyavar Mahoday ? Swamiji ki kitaabo main Bhagwaan ke svabhaav ka varnan bhi aaya hoga. Aaya hoga na Sir? To kyon nahin ham usee se kaam chalale ? Shrimaanji- Bhakti kyaa hoti hai? Bhagwaan ki leelaao ka gungaan bhi bhakti ka ek roop hai. Ye baat theek hai ki Jeeva or Jagdish dono varnanateet hai parantu ye baat bhi to theek hai ki Bhagwaan ke SAGUN SAKAAR roop ka varnan shashro main huaa hai, khoob huva hai, jam kar huvaa hai ! Kyon huva hai jab Bhagvaan varnanateet hain ? Aapne Swamiji ka ek lekh padhaa hai- 'VARNANATEET KA VARNAN' ? To Bhaiyyaji - Jaise Param Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj ne 'Varnanateet' maanate huve bhi varnan kiya, vaise hi aap bhi varnanateet maante huve varnan karle to kyaa eitraaj hai ? Bhakti bhi ho jaayegi. Kyaa Jachee ?

ENGLISH TRANSLATION:

One description of God is also that He is sanatan, eternal, beyond Nature, ever positioned in Equanimity, superior to humans, the most kind and benevolent, all powerful, all knowing, the protector and controller of universe...! Has not He been described so in the books of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj accordingly? There is SAGUN SAKAAR form of Paramatma also. Scriptures are full of singing His glories and describe in many ways. One form of Bhakti is also 'singing His glories/deliberating/talking about Him' !! Even Swamiji has written an article - Describing the Undescribable !! Isn't it? So what is wrong, Sir, if we also describe Him the way we want to, inspite of He continuing to remain beyond description? Pranaams

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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God!!!!!!!!!!!!
hello from nyc in t he blizzard
LOve these replies today I am Very grateful for the dedication of members
moksh
Sophia
-------------------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
As our humble Sadhakji has pointed, God cannot be described in words, can never be an object of our perception by means of sense organs, and mind.
Why, because if God is such an object, it has to have a name, if so then God becomes limited like any another object of our experience, which cannot be the case!
Based on our own experience of ourselves, if we eliminate all names(son, father, mother, doctor, engineer, husband, wife, worker, boss etc etc), then what reemains is pure EXISTENCE, which itself is Consciousness, Knowingness!
Above all this Consciousness is not limited by the objects appearing in it(as pointed out above)! SO, Pure and undivided TOTAL Existence(devoid of names or all names included) in our experience is CONSCIOUSNESS! These words also are merely pointers as is word GOD!

Thus, Who are we? Based on above explanation for satisfying mind, we say WE ARE, we cannot say who by saying this or that names, simply WE ARE!
Again "WE" doesn't refer to individual body-mind organism, rather, points to experience of BEING.
similarly Who is GOD? God is just a name to communicate the inner experience of BEING CONSCIOUS, which is impersonal, unlimited by any name!
Since BEING CONSCIOUS is always present in Waking, Dream, Sleep states of our being, it is our nature, our REALITY, and thus called CONSCIOUSNESS!
See that all objects we know arise or appear and disappear just as waves in the OCEAN or WATER, but only WATER remains! Such is GOD!
Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt

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Hari SharaNam,

Who am "I"? I will let the questioner seek its answer by himself/herself. Knowing "I" does not guarantee knowing the "GOD" but knowing "GOD", nothing remains unkown, whole integral system is known.

So, Who is "GOD"? It can/must not be defined by the imagination of limited capacities of the human minds.

Vedanta Darshan, in very beginning, defines the GOD as "the one from whom the world is created, sustained & dissolved " ( JANMAADASYA YATAH ; BrahmSutra - 1/1/2). This definition is not the creation/imagination of the author's mind although the author is beyond the realized souls. This definition is based upon the scriptures (SHAASTRAYONITVAAT ; BrahmSutra - 1/1/3).

Taittiriya Upanishad -3/1 also defines "GOD" as the one from whom everything is created, maintained and dissolved.
YATO VAA IMAANI BHOOTAANI JAAYANTE | YEN JAATAANI JEEVANTI | YATPRAYANTYABHISAMVISHANTI | TATVIJIGAASAVA | TATBRAHMETI |

Srimad Bhagavad PuraaNa also starts with the same word "JANMAADASYA YATAH" (1/1/1) to offer prayer to the GOD.

Patanjali Ji MaharaaJ, in his Yog Darshan, just after mentioning the Sutra "ISWARPRANIDHAANAADVAA -1/23" (i.e. one can also attain the goal by surrendering to the God), says "... PURUSHHA VISHESHA ISHWAR-1/24" i.e. GOD is VISHESHA PURUSHHA. Please note the word "VISHESHHA". Bhagavad Gita calls GOD as UTTAM/PARAM PURUSHHA/ATMAA/BRAHM (10/12,13/12, 15/17-18).

Kapil Ji Maharaaj, in his Sankhya Darshan (3/55-57), also says ISWAR is the one which directs/controls PRAKRRITI thats why ISHWAR is called SARVAVIT SARVAKARTAA.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

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Question: who are we?
Answer : You are being (Is-ness, Existence) only, nothing else. [hamaaraa swaroop sattaamaatra hai. maanavamaatrake kalyaanake liye page 149].
Question: who is God?
Answer : Whosoever speaks about God [paramaatmaa], only speaks of what is learnt from others only as One who has realized God, can't describe [varnanaateet kaa varnan naheen kiyaa jaa sakataa] Remember "jahaan varnan hai, vahaan tattva naheen hai aur jahaan tattva hai, vahaan varnan naheen hai." [saadhan-sudhaa-sindhu page 58].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

-----------------------------------------------
Dear sadaks,
We are Jeevathumas (Numeral but finite) and God is Paramathuma.(Singular and infinite)
B.Sathyanarayan

-----------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Great Divine Question befitting this great Divine G T Forum !

Who are we ? We are children of God. Who is God ? God is our Father- The eternal father. Our ONLY OWN.

We are tired travellers and God is final destination.

We are water in clouds, rivers, ponds , atmosphere, gutters, pipes etc and God is ocean. We must reach ocean because till we do not reach there we can not be peaceful. Till we reach ocean, we must flow /change forms and must remain peace-less and sorrowful ! Where is happiness without peace? We want happiness, only happiness, absolute happiness.

We are players and God is Umpire and Captain .

We are strivers (sadhaks) and God is Goal (Sadhya) !

We are students and God is Teacher.

We are dumbs and God is Jaggery.

We are thirsty and God is Water.

We are Purushas and God is Purushottam.

We are actors and God is Director.

We are atmas and God is Paramatma.

We are wives and God is husband.

We are SARVAM and God is VASUDEV.

We are pebbles and God is Himalaya.

We are clouds and God is Sky.

We are rays and God is the Sun.

We are body and God is Heart.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
------------------------------------------

Who am I? What is God?

Interesting indeed

We have to understand one thing before we step forward here. A question raises only due to a need and will wield its authority until the need is mitigated. It would not subside until then, no matter what rationale we can amass around the same! Therefore, no question can ever be "answered"! Also, no question ever "exists" on its own either!! Therefore, it is wise to look at the need that triggered the questions rather than wasting resources on the questions themselves.

What makes the current questions all the more interesting, rather intriguing?! The underlying need remains mystical from one's appreciation.

Who am I? The need for this question is to identify oneself in order to interact with others. Such a need keeps varying in its texture and demands. But, almost always it is rooted in some other need! Also, the very identification depends on alien entities rather than oneself. How can such a needy and dependent state of existence can ever sustain?! Such states are born only to decay and die. Of course, new needs originate from the carcass perpetually - Sasyamiva pachyate martyah sasyamivaajaayate punah! Eventually, the question remains "unanswered" as ever ...

Who am I? Rather everything knows its answer. If at all I know anything, it should be the "I" as such! How can this "I" know anything else without knowing Itself?! And, yet THAT is the last thing one can ever explain for sure! Why? Because, the very notion of explanation is hinged on entities other than oneself!! Therefore, even if the whole universe is explained THAT cannot be!!! Therefore IT IS THE ONLY known ever and is known even to the most ignorant of all; and yet, it remains unknown to the most intelligent ever - Yasyaamatam tasya matam matam yasya na veda sah! Why? Everything is predisposed to seek outward rather than inward - Paraanchi khaani vyatriNaat svayambhooh !!

What is God? The question is self-deceptive! Who can know that?! By definition God ought to be Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient transcending all the dominions of existence - time-space, matter-energy, knowledge-ignorance or any other - categorically. Then how can any fathom what THAT could be when all these cosmic dominions put together cannot even have a glimpse of the same??!! SURELY, IT IS AN IMPOSSIBLE QUESTION TO ANSWER. But, why then this question is the most intriguing as well as ancient to the human mind???!!!

Who is God? Again, a question has no rationale for its own basis except that it believes to stand on a need. To start with, the body-mind cluster that is baffled with its own limitations in its existential loci starts appreciating the fact that its paths are verily carved by many external forces acting upon it simultaneously and perpetually. Then it lands into a deeper level of baffling when it realizes that every entity is subjected to the same limitations. It starts wondering then ... Who could be operating these entities to act the way they do! What force could be binding these to be what they are?!What intelligence is bridging communication between them??!! In whose belly this infinitude of existence survives as is???!!! Who ensures integrity in their existence as well as in their transactions????!!!!. The mystery deepens as one "progresses".

Again, why one entertains this question? Why a Duryodhana wants to bind a KrishNa, THE FREEDOM as such?! The reson is simple. One is paranoid of one's very existence due to the uncertainties in one's transactions with the world around. One wants to settle this uncertainty positively. That is a survival need. No uncertainty can let any being sleep tight! As one remains utterly unsuccessful to keep one's loci of living for certain, the question keeps haunting from within ... who is this fellow? who is this God??

Kenshitam patati preshitam manah kena praaNah prathamah praiti yuktah |

Keneshitaam vaachamimaam vadandti chakshuh shrotram ka vu devo yunakti ||

Unless the needs - to identify oneself and to understand what governs transactions around - are mitigated, the questions remain engraved in one's consciousness. Only when one starts appreciating the self-effulgence of the "I", one could retard one's query "Who am I?". "I" was, is and will be forever independent of the objective relations one would ever perceive!! Similarly, only when one realizes the potential of an all-pervasive universal reality, the question "What is God?" starts fading from the horizons.

But the questions ought to and will remain in their subtle forms till the "I" and "God" remain discrete to each other! The need to question this discreteness further is to mitigate the very needs we started with.

Is there anything that is devoid of an "I"? Nothing can ever exist without this self-manifestation. It is fundamental for the very existence. If one "I" is different from another, who else is there to establish the obvious and unbroken communication between the two? When nothing exists without "I" how can this third party be other than "I"? Really speaking, what is this "I"?! Can anyone be isolated as such ... as some "one"?? Everything across the universe is a single monolithic existence from which not even an atom can set itself apart!! Then why identity? and, what uncertainty?? When no identities are needed and when no uncertainties can ever exist ... how can there be a question "Who am I?" and "What is God?"? ... THAT is everything one can ever fathom and beyond ... Pratibodhaviditam matam amritam ... I AM THAT ... Aham Brahmaasmi ... THAT IS EVERYTHING ... Sarvam khalu idam brahmaa ...

Till then Who am I?! What is God??!! What is all these???!!! let us roll as the questions demand we will roll till we realize we can opt not to we will roll till we opt NOT TO!!!

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
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Shree Hari
Ram Ram

18th January, 2012, Wednesday
Maagh Krishna Dashami, Budhvar, Vikram Samvat 2068

God is Waiting for Us

The curtain that is seen between God and us, the distance that is seen, the separation that is perceived, is in fact our own creation, not God's doing, as God is Omnipresent and is present at all times. Not only that, He is closer than our assumed sense of My-ness. He is present As-is even in the most fallen and degraded ones as well. Therefore spiritual aspirants must want that they should accept their Beloved within themselves, and become free from all anxiety or worries "nischint". When besides God there is acceptance of no other entity, then an aspirant will attain his Beloved within himself. However, as long as within remains the assumption - "I am the body" till then he will attain nothing but the world.

He who sees His Beloved in other individuals, in saints and great souls, in scriptures etc, he will have to experience separation from his Beloved. However, he who sees his Beloved within himself, he does not have to suffer the separation with his beloved. However close you may see your Beloved when seen as separate, there will most definitely be feeling of separation. However, when the Beloved is seen as inseparable (within us) then an eternal affinity is established. As long as the aspirant's inner senses perceive the existence of many, till then he cannot experience an eternal affinity with his Beloved, rather he wanders from place to place in this world to attain his Beloved.

An aspirant should never feel a sense of hopelessness with the real essence (tattva), because the aspirant has complete eligibility, rights and potential for realization of the supreme truth. It is a rule that he who can enjoy worldly pleasures, he can also turn away from the world and experience bliss. He who can develop attachment and aversion in the world, he can also renounce attachment and aversion and be able to truly love as well. He who can engage in sense pleasures, he can also renounce pleasures and be able to attain "Yog" (equanimity). He who has the ability to adopt, also has the ability to denounce.

Man endowed with desires can never love anyone. Therefore a man of desires cannot be a true believer in God. Man becomes a true believer in God, when in his eyes besides the one Beloved (God) nothing else remains. Such a true believer attains Love by God's grace. Although God's grace is showering equally on all beings, then too that grace is only experienced when man entirely becomes only God's. Not accepting the existence of anyone else, is becoming God's.

Besides the One God, there is no one else who is my Beloved (Lover). When besides God when we love anyone else, then that love destroys "sanhaar" you and the other. This is not love, it is attachment. It is only the Love for one's own country that destroys "sanhaar" other countries; attachment to one's own organization / group that destroys "sanhaar" other organizations; attachment to one's own race, caste, type, "jaati" that destroys other race, caste, type, "jaati".

If besides the one God, if all other wants are renounced, then God will come without our calling and the world will disappear for you without trying. Hope of His attainment in the future is a mistake. One must serve others. Let there not be the slightest bit of affinity with the body and the world - this is true "renunciation" and besides That One God, do not accept the existence of anyone else, not even the slightest bit - this itself is Love.

He who is filled with desire, that being alone cannot love. Because desires are of the world and Love is of God. Man filled with desires is a worshipper of worldly sense objects. Whereas a man filled with Love, is a worshipper of God. The worshipper of the world becomes dependent and the worshipper of God becomes independent. (to be continued)

From "Sant Samaagam" in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

If in doubt regarding the translation, please read the original Hindi message by Swamiji.

FOR MESSAGE IN HINDI PLEASE VISIT Date : 16th January, 2012 "BHAGWAAN HAMAARI PRATIKSHAA KAR RAHE HAI"

http://www.satcharcha.blogspot.com/

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[gita-talk] Re: Without Promotion Vedic Culture Cannot be Protected, Your thoughts !

2012-01-25T12:21:00.000-08:00

Please devise and discuss some practical means to promote.
SUBHASH CHANDER TEWARI

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please share your thoughts on this topic? Any additional suggestions, ideas on how to increase awareness? Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

===============================================

Hari Om

A sadhak has stated : "Cultures come and go. Civilisations come and go. Principles come and go. Life-styles come and go. Faiths come and go. Beliefs come and go. Revolutions come and go. So called Religions come and go."

No ! Out of the above list , Faith, Belief, Religion at least these 3 should be deleted. "To believe" (Faith) is one of the "power" which a human has. If Jeeva is anaadi (beginningless) , then this power: "To believe" is also 'anaadi' ! A human has 3 powers: 1 To Know 2 To Do and 3 To Believe. In fact , in Holy Gita, one full chapter (Chapter 17) has been exclusively devoted to 'Faith/Belief/Shraddha' only. Belief is the yardstick of the type of human. From 'belief' only, you know as to whether a human is of 'Daivy Sampada' or of 'Asuri Sampada"(17:5) . 'As is your Shraddha, so are you' (17:3). Shraddha /Belief/Faith thus is an integral part of anaadi Jeeva. JUST AS: Shakti is the integral part of Shaktimaan. You can't separate Shakti from Shaktimaan just as you can't separate out heat from fire. SIMILARLY: Faith/Belief/Shraddha is integral part of Jeeva , who in turn is integral part of 'IS' ...Paramatma !!

The very God, actually, is subject matter of 'belief' only. God is not subject matter of 'knowledge' ! You can't believe in 'Hai' (IS) or 'All is God' on one hand and on the other hand say 'Belief comes and goes' and equate belief/faith/shraddha with other perishables. You can not do that without getting wrong. If you 'believe' in 'Hai' (IS) , you believe in 'belief' too. To Know and To Believe are two independent powers of Jeeva (who is anaadi and I hope Humble Saadhaka also believes that) . They have independent areas. There is necessarily no belief where there is knowledge, and vice versa. VIVEKA , who is also as beginning less (anaadi) as is human, shraddha, Religion etc , discriminates as to where these 2 powers are to be exercised.

To conclude, religion/faith/shraddha can not be said to be part of 'whatever rises, sets' as they are 'anaadi' (beginningless/ Eternal) ! There are no people (Scriptures) who have ever stated/ assigned : "As people assign the age of Vedic Culture (in thousands of years) they ascertain that it arose some thousand years ago, hence it won't last for ever" ! How can any Scripture state that? Who ascertained what Sir and when Sir? So long humans exist, Jeevas exist and the Jagdish exists... Religion/faith/belief/ Viveka exist. As simple as that.

Sir... Our Religion is referred as 'SANATAN DHARMA' ..Eternal Righteousness !!! "Eternal" means beginningless ... !,

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Society Culture Time Decay
I do not know what exactly is intended by culture here. But, to me culture means life style, social values, living conditions and natural ambience in a collective sense. There is an interesting incidence in Aayurvedic literature. Once upon a time, many great sages or scholars (there was no distinction between scholors and sages those days!) assembled in forest to brainstorm impending socio-hygenic issues arising due to certain changes in human behavior. The topic was: "The new culture called villages and its repurcussions on spiritual, social and personal hygene and health"! Ever since, the human concentration is increasing and the conjugate natural ambience is depleting!! The very same issues are still the forerunners in human problems today. The population density is exploding exponentially ever. My father has already witnessed nearly doubling in population in his life span so far. Today you see human concentrations in terms of millions.
Irespective of all ideals we can preach ourselves, we need to be cognizant of the raw realities of life. THE CULTURE IS DICTATED BY ONLY ONE FACTOR - DEMAND FOR AND SUPPLY OF RESOURCES. It is no surprise that the creatures become reckless, cruel and extremely selfish when the resource supply is cut-off! Same educated and sophisticated humans can adapt canibalism!! It is not a joke ... please observe documentaries of world war - II. The population adopts social norms (culture in other words) that suits its current dynamic conditions in regards to demand and supply. It is impossible to break this paradigm - the pradigm of survival! Survival is the ONLY parameter that runs the show in any society. The only appreciation the humanity has developed regarding peace at large is "secured survival". It strives hard to sustain that. The social norms just flood along the time taking shapes as needed for the hour in order to secure survival. Any wish to retract time is futile. No preaching can ever change this. Even if one wants to ... one can never live the way the hermits lived thousands of years back! Even if one is ready ... the people are not!! ... the nature is not!!
Jaata Dharma and Samaaja Dharma ought to conform with the dynamic social norms. Only then there is harmony between individual and the rest. Every society churns its values perpetually, creates its own leaders to enforce the ever changing norms on its population. Nature of any society is to attain dynamic equilibrium in its sustenance. It has been happening all the while. Some times the changes are through radiant peace head such as Buddha, some times through an icon of sacrifice and forgiveness such as Jesus, some times through a truthful ambassodor of peace such as Gandhi ... and, some times through tyrants such as Alexander, Ceasar, Napoleon, Hitler and many more. Both the creed arise from the same substratum - humanity - though the later outnumber the former to our misfortune :(.

If you mean Sanaatana Dharma by culture how can it ever be under the clutches of any?! how can THAT ever be corrupted??!! IT remains AS IS and AS EVER amongst the very creeds of good and bad being neither.
Respects.
Naga Narayana.

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Hari Om

Holy Vedas, Holy Gita (the principles contained therein), Yogas , Viveka (discrimination), Jeeva, Jagat, Jagdish ...they are all 'anaadi' (beginningless) ! They are not part of 'whatever that rises, sets' ! Sadhaks should not consider Vedic Principles to be perishable. We all should be promoting Vedic culture, no doubt, but we should not worry for sustenance of the same. Whoever believes in Sanatan Dharma will believe so. Many Divine Sadhaks have accordingly and rightly stated ..MA SUCHAH. My pranaams to Sadhak Sudhir Mathuria, Karan Rathore..! You are right, Sirs.

It is duty of Paramatma to re-establish the Dharma back in Jagat. In every yuga , He does that. Our Vedas and their teachings are therefore known as SANATAN DHARMA (Eternal/Beginning less Righteousness) ! They are not perishable or ever changing ..they will NEVER cease to exist and Paramatma will re-establish them, when they become too inaccessible. Readers should not make error of believing that like ice age or stone age , Holy Vedas also belong to some age and with time they will vanish. It is a wrong talk then because they are, actually, as eternal as is humanity itself.

Yes...as the clouds of Kaliyuga are getting denser and denser , there will be a considerable deterioration in availability of Scriptures in times to come. First and foremost duty of all of us is, therefore, to take benefit of them as expeditiously as possible, in this human birth only. Terrible times are ahead of us. Holy Ganges will also return to the Vaikunth very soon ..along with Saraswati and Padmavati ! Not even 100 years from now..! Huge deterioration in its level and flow is clearly evident. It is certain that by 2050 to 2100 , there will be no Ganges on the planet. As per Scriptures, the time of its getting unmanifest has already come. It was supposed to remain in Kaliyuga for 5000 years. Kaliyuga is already 5119 years old. Hence take benefit of Holy Ganges as quickly as you can. Along with Holy Ganges, other 'Tirthas' will also depart in the current century itself. By the end of this century , thus, only 2 Pilgrimage places will remain ...1 Kashi 2 Vrindavan ! Rest all 'Tirthas' will go back to the abode of Param Pita Parameshwar ! Later on, as Kaliyuga will spread its wings, Gods like Jagannathji, Shaligram will also leave the planet. Already Kaliyuga has reached even forests. A lot of rivers will dry. Hence Divine Sadhaks, instead of wasting time in peripherals, we should be doubly anxious about our emancipation. Even the promotion of Vedic principles by Gita Press , Gorakhpur will cease in times to come. We shall not get Scriptures, their interpretations, etc as easily as we are getting today. We must take benefit of them.

Terrible calamities are ahead of us, Divine Sadhaks ! The type of sins which are being practiced today (like foetus killing, abortions, family planning, cow slaughtering, dowry tortures, etc) were not practiced in the past, even in the regimes of fierce demons like Raavana, Kansa, Hiranyakashyap, Hiranyaksha..! What to talk of food, humanity at large will not even get water to drink in future !

Hence our immediate concern and duty is: Take benefit of Vedas, Gita, Holy Ganges, Pilgrimages as fast as we can , before they become very inaccessible.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
-----------------------------------------

God and His creation does not need any protection or promotion. He
knows what to protect and promote and how t do that. The attraction of
humn mind and heart to pusue the Unknown Him through Bhakti-Prem, Karmya
Yoga, Raja Yoga and Gyan Yoga will ever remain as strong as ever,
whether such Yoga is practiced consciously or unconsciusly. Even then
life styles will change, the rituals will change, understandig of values
and morality will change over time as in the past. Whenever necessary in
times of instabilty, He will emerge in some form other to restore order,
peace and stability. That is what God tells us in Gita. However, it is
certainly God's will that some persons want to unite and take practical
steps to promote Vedic Dharma or Gita's Dharma. This wuill have its
consequences as may be desired by Him. We may do as our Gunas forces us to do. So, if we are forced by an impulse to promote Vedic Dharma or Gits's Dharma, wwe will practice that ourselves, encourage our children to do the same and demonstrate to others that our practicing of Dharma has been beneficial to us. Some of us while promoting our Dharma will not despise others who follow other religious practices or are disbelievers or against our Dharma, while some of us will despise these others and may even get into conflict with them Whatever each individual does is what he is forced to do by the influence of Maya and the inherent Guna properties. If this thought remains in our mind, whatever we do may not affect our happiness and stability of peace in mind.

Basudeb Sen
------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

As long as we live in the house, we must keep it a healthy place for our current and future family members. In my understanding, the Vedic Culture aims to keep not one or two or few but all the corners of the house clean to help its whole family in all different bodies live in healthy way and lead towards the ultimate health.

The one practical way, in my understanding, is to know/understand the culture (at least in essence) and live it first yourself with/without your small family and then let/help (but not force or change) others to feel the beauty of this culture. One may or may not join a group/organization aligned with Vedic Culture but remember the key is not the organization and its logistics but it is the culture which strives for the eternal welfare for the whole family in many possible ways.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

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Hari Om

Yes , there is a talk of 'Ashwa-medha' sacrifice etc in Scriptures. Now pay attention:

Whoever does animal sacrifice , does it ONLY for fulfillment of desires relating to the world i.e. For worldly desires. One who desires his salvation/emancipation...does not indulge in animal sacrifice. In Gita Arjuna asked Krishna: Why does a man sin unwillingly? The Lord replied: Due to (worldly) desires. (BG 3:36/37) !

One who does 100 Ashwamedha Yagyas, becomes the INDRA (The Lord of all Demi-Gods). That Indra also suffers, gets frequently afflicted with sorrows and fear, hides himself, runs away like a coward, goes and pleads like a beggar for his survival to his higher ups..say Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesh.. !! NOW THINK ..Dear Mike ! After doing 100 Yagyas as ordained by Scriptures, why again and again calamity comes on Indra ? Why does he not always remain happy and peaceful? Why he has to be fearful and hiding like Sugreeva or like a rat ? Why he has to worry for his kingdom ? Why he has to become a beggar in front of his superiors, saints? Why he has to go to humans like Karna and beg for his Kavacha and Kundals? Reason is: Violence practiced in Ashwamedha Yagyas. Indra has to suffer the punishment for violence made by him in those Yagyas. He gets sorrows in plenty against that sin.

There are 2 types of humans in this Universe. One- Who desire emancipation/Liberation . Two- Who desire worldly 'bhogas' ! Vedas/Scriptures are parents of all ! JUST AS: Parents spend money and buy toys made of sand for their child.. Because the child desires toy and becomes happy by getting that only .SIMILARLY: In Scriptures , the talk of animal sacrifice is narrated only for those humans who have worldly desires. ONLY for those people. In no Scripture, an animal sacrifice has been recommended for those people who desire Liberation...the very goal of a human being.

Tell me, Dear Mike, if it is mentioned anywhere in any Vedas etc that the result (phala) of animal sacrifice is Liberation/ Mukti / Emancipation/ God Realisation/ Self Realisation / Peace/Bliss/ Equanimity ..??? You will not find any co-relation.

Thanks for such really well thought and researched queries. We all are proud of you, your research and striving.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
-----------------------------------------------

Jay Shri Krishna
I believe that our Vedic Dharma is Sanatan i.e. no beginning, no middle and no end. It may seem like that its presence is fading but it reappears.
I agree that we should promote it but at the end of the day only Krishna takes care of it.
Regards
Sudhir Mathuria

-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

The most practical and effective way is: Live the Vedic principles yourself. Gita clearly recommends each human to practice himself the Vedic Principles and there can not be better method of promoting the same. Your children then will carry forward your conduct invariably. Setting examples therefore is the need of the hour.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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I agree that without promotion the Vedic culture cannot be protected. First and foremost one as to realise that the Vedas for everyone not just those equipped to understand it. The protectionism as in Caste system is becoming less and less relevant. Just like Gita talk as in this forum a Vedic talk forum could be established at a community level and later it needs to have a role at influencing government policy, otherwise criminality in politics can't be eroded.
Anil Bhanot

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There is no need of promotion for sanatan dharma.
just keep doing own-karma according to swa-dharma.swa-bhav,aatm-raksha.
Karan Rathore

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very elaborate and scientific approach --thanks stephen knapp
jai shree krishna
Chaman nigam

------------------------------------------------

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Cultures come and go. Civilisations come and go. Principles come and go. Life-styles come and go. Faiths come and go. Beliefs come and go. Revolutions come and go. So called Religions come and go. All these needed promotion in one way or the other, for their coming and vanished, literally conforming to "whatever arises, never lasts for ever."
As people assign the age of Vedic Culture (in thousands of years) they ascertain that it arose some thousand years ago, hence it won't last for ever.
Ages like ice-age, stone-age, pri-historic age etc. arose some (thousand) years ago and do not exist at present, similarly whatever has arisen or arises (takes birth or begins to exist) will not last for ever.
Nothing is permanent except HAI (Paramaatmatattva, as defined by Swameejee).
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

---------------------------------------
VEDAs are to be taught only when they are sought in right perspective!

It sounds like Rakesh and Vijay are two polarities in their radical observations. But, I agree with both!

I agree with Rakesh from spiritual angles. Preaching weakens the society to its core. Preached values such as Ahimsa triggers natural animal instinct in most - cowardice, run away from problems to survive! India has paid heavily in its post-Buddhist and post-Jain periods thanks to the slogan level appreciation of great values such as Ahimsa preached over centuries! Though the scriptural sources play an important role to start with, ONLY TRUE APPRECIATION matters to enable oneself spiritually.

To minimize such social chaos Vedas are meant to be taught only when they are sought never to be preached to anyone who is not committed to the same! The same philosophy is emphasized by Vyaasa in Bhagavadgita very vocally Na buddhibhedam janayet ...

Vedas are never written because they exist only in one's understanding. Knowledge with half-baked appreciation is the most dangerous weapon to earth's existence - be it the great continental war in India in past or the world wars in the recent history or the worldwide unrest in humanity today. Well-documented body of knowledge such as Nuclear Physics can be well-used as well as ill-used by a powerful intellect! We are acutely cognizant of such dangers - same knowledge can become source of energy to live! Same can also become a nerve-racking paranoia of nuclear demolition of the very life on earth!!

Vedas are never preached because they can shine only in one's experience. Inexperienced observation remain mere information in terms of images in memory. Only experienced observations become one's very nature. Vedic Knowledge is expected to become one's very nature! An inexperienced sharp intellect of Ashwatthaamaa does not realize what havoc a Brahmaastra is capable of generating - such a mind is incapable of withdrawing its emotional momentum. Only a well-trained and experienced sharp intellect such as Arjuna can apply wisdom to withdraw the same power for general welfare.

Therefore Vedic culture has imposed to teach Knowledge (Veda means knowledge) only for appreciation with right experience. It becomes Guru's responsibility to ensure the same. Of course, it has a loop hole like any other humanly ideas - there is room for individual exploitation. Mhabharata is a perfect example when humanity is mislead by a corrupt teacher such as DroNa. Well ... few individuals (even groups of people, or even the whole humanity) being "cheated off" such knowledge is justifiable when compared to global catastrophes that can unleash otherwise ... recent World Wars are great lessons if the humans want to really learn ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
--------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhak,
Not only in Gita ji but all those who followed it in content agrees that water is meant for thirsty only.
HAMEY YEH JAN LENA CHHIYE KI GYAN(WISDOM) ANUBHAV KA VISHAY HEI NIRDESH KA NAHI.
Those who propagate by hard selling the idea they actually doubt the greatness of the message in Gita otherwise such a epic would not have survived without marketing for so many centuries. Do wisdom need publicity/marketing or any appearance to convince others. All the factual work of science does not need marketing to the people who do not need to understand the subject. Spiritualism is ahead of science, therefore, does not need hard selling. We exactly do the de-service to the epic when we involve in such propagation and create controversy. We must ask our self this question and need to be brutally truthful to our feeling without getting into the ego of knowledge. Mahatma Gandhi also followed Gita but in such a beautiful way that he never sounded it in a controversial or religious way.
Hari Om
Raina

--------------------------------------------

OM-OM-OM
In my opinion each one of us must work as a missionary and help and reduce sufferings from those who need most and weave Vadic culture in thought process. Protection of vadic culture can best be achieved by sharing and expansion of knowledge.
Awtar Kaul
-------------------------------------------------
Vedic Knowledge Social Integrity Personal Happiness

Vedic Rituals Sacrifice Sacrilege

I also agree with Vijay from socio-political perspectives. Unity is the socio-political strength. India is the best example of all chaos that can inculcate into social ignorance thanks to raging invasions for more than a millennium!! The Nobel Laureate Naipal makes remarkable observations in his work, "India - A Wounded Civilization" in this regard. Though the cultural knowledge-base such as Vedic scriptures play an important role in background, social synergy plays the lead role here.

In this perspective, responding to Mike's radical observations - "but also Asvamedha, and all manner of sacrifices and carnage!" - is meaningful. I often hear such comments about many old cultures (which are conveniently named "paganism"!). I cannot help but to chuckle at the socially sophisticated ignorance in today's modern society. Yes killing an animal in a ceremony IS BAD! But do you see THE WORST in the gynormous ignorance grown under the very sophistication?!

Eating animals is naturally inherited in humans. But losing the value for Life is cultivated purely by human's artificial intelligence! In a great movie "God's must be crazy", there is a situation. The modern "intelligent and ignorant" humans have massacred an elephant to smuggle its ivory. The meat is left asunder. A bewildered "illiterate and wise" tribal man remarks, "What a pity! A precious life is shattered in greed for a useless thing! Such precious resource for Life (food) is being shattered with such indifference! Let me call my tribe to eat the meat and celebrate life with this god-given opportunity!"

Millions of lives are unceremoniously massacred today in seclusion to an extent that the general public has come to treat food as just commodity. Reverence to The Life is completely lost. Animals are massacred in abundance with absolutely no pity and respect. A ceremony ceremonizes the same living thing to be a god before being reverentially killed and eaten in order to sustain life. Moderns kill millions with no conscience and pretentious wisdom. Tribals used to kill few (ONLY IF REQUIRED! All animals know this and respect this except the stupid and arrogant modern human!!) with absolute reverence in their extra-ordinary innocence.

Mike, the society is filled with ordinary people - not extra-ordinary wise men. Therefore, it is required to distill the Knowledge to social level to promote social integrity and personal happiness in a society. Accordingly Vedas are composed in three parts - BraahmaNa, AaraNyaka and Vedaanta.

BraahmaNa is to educate man to survive in dignity. All rituals are meant for this. For example, animal sacrifice you are talking of. Horses, cows, goats etc. ... as well as vegetables, grains etc. are precious sources of life to preserve life as such. ANNAM BRAHMAA ITI VYAJAANAAT! Therefore, all rituals start with teaching people to worship life and celebrate living first. Imagine the value of life one gains while witnessing death in a life form with reverence as against today's modern intellects who are oblivious to the depths of life and death at large! The fact remains very clear how innocent humans that respected life once have become selfish organizing mass sacrilege of life in general!!!

AaraNyaka is where one is introduced to the danger of survival craves and how personal happiness is being thwarted in the very process of survival. The root cause for all miseries is rooted in the anxiety for survival that terrifies one with fear of death perpetually. Therefore, the student is led into deeper appreciations of life and death. Now, the same rituals shift their focus from society and world toward the individual. Every SACRIFICE is to observe the sacred LIFE-DEATH relations to its very core. The same rituals are now repeated in a completely different plane of reverence and appreciation.

ONLY THEN Vedaanta - the study of THE REALITY that transcends life and death - is amicable to the student. Only then rituals of living start receding inward into the contemplative and meditative dominions and expand back into the universal dominion from within.

For example, the same Ashwamedha starts with sacrificing a horse or Ashwa (symbol of power and royalty, resource for survival) in the worldly domain in BraahmaNa to minimize the survival hurdles around; continues as bending and mending one's body and mind (Ashwa again) to develop individual appreciation in order to minimize one's tendency within that attracts miseries; and culminates into spiritual meditation where the very individual (again Ashwa) that perpetually seeks association with emotional baggage is sacrificed to attain THE ETERNITY that ever IS.

Pl. feel free to contact me if anyone is interested to explore the multi-faceted value system embedded in Vedic scripts and culture.

Respects.
Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------------

Dear Sir,
In my Humble Opinion, adopting promotions like the corporate model works would dilute the lessons of Vedic Principles.
Vedic Principles don't need to be propagated like viral marketing. It will kill the essence. Moreover, Krishna himself tells in Gita not to give these lessons to non-believers. Only when people are thirsty, they look out for water. We shouldn't go in hard selling of water like corporate does. Its okay if ISCKON has adopted corporate model abroad, but atleast India should be spared of such exercises.

regds,
rakesh

----------------------------------------------

dear All,

I have mixed opinion there is need of awarness but at the same time it has to kept as no profit making as lot of false people are taking for ride of their lack of knowledage.

Any one in group from Middle east.
ALOK CHOUBISA
Ram ram

----------------------------------------------

Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar,

We must understnd the concept of Evolution....Evolution of Life forms, Evolution of Culture, Evolution of Languages, Evolution of Philosophy etc.....with TIME.

According to my understanding, Adi Manav was just evolved from Apes 70 lakhs Earth Years back...Gradually he came upto Vedic era, some 6 to 8 thousand years back. Philosophy of Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bhagwad Geeta and so on is the same process of evolution...The beginning and culmination of Adhyatmic Era...Whatever Vedic Culture we have presently is the fevourable essence of Sanatan Dharma and is being well protected in the evolved stage....No further efforts are required.

Gee Waman
----------------------------------------------

Thank you Brother Stephen ji

I totally agree with you about the promotion aspects. We who profess Hinduism are not proactive and the points you have enumerated are easy to follow..... at least some of them can be immediately put in action.
Of course there are many groups who are doing a great job such as the Sai groups, Chinmaya missions, Vendanta societies etc. But the temples have to engage with the grassroots and be part of the solutions to their day to day struggles, like the Christian missionaries do.

I have been so fortunate because my parents taught me both the rituals and the philosophy of Sanatana Dharma. I wish all will get the same exposure.

In my small way, I work with children who come to the temple with their parents and give them practical knowledge using the Dharmic content with prayers to enhance their beliefs and show them that this way of life will produce the outcome they want to achieve.

Hari Om

lakshmi
-----------------------------------------------------
as i feel vedic culture and spirituality should be tought right from primary classes and special courses should be designed for that age group secondly older and uneducated people should also be tought or at least made aware of this .people should take this also as a social responsibility .it is my humble suggestion .jai shree krishna .
Chaman nigam

----------------------------------------------------
Dear sadaks,
Vedic culture or Sanathana Dharma is never taken serious until the truth behind it understood. These truths are never easily available. People talk of Bagavath Geetha, Soul and body, heaven and hell, good and bad deeds Etc. But true impart of knowledge is unavailable. Unless it is given do`s and dont`s, not only Hindus, humanity at large will not benefit. Only when a person made to know that he benefits this and looses this, he show very keen interest on knowing further. Ex: In Kapila Geetha, it is said, a sperm in a womb how it develops stage by stage, when hair grows, nail grows etc and finally as infant on this earth. As a scientist will get dismayed and wants to know further. Again how this infant is given parents etc. It is said about Black hole- life span of earth planet in Upanashids and in old testament. If we impart these know how, then the vedic culture rejuvenates. By mating with neighbor wife, what is effect. A hot copper doll of the woman whom you had illicit love will be offered to you looking as natural, after your death. You will embrace her and get burns, then insects lives on it for years. Ref: Srimath Bagavatham. "Though shall not cast your eyes on neighbor`s", Bible says. What If I cast eyes is not there. If it was told, he would refrain thinking of its seriousness. This subject is vast. I remain in short.
B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------------------------
-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

In Ch 32: 21 of Essence of Yogavaasishtha, it makes it quite clear that
the Veda-s are the highest authority.
I have read of water conservation in the Veda, the rights of widows, and
young women in the Veda,
but also Asvamedha, and all manner of sacrifices and carnage. Fire
ritual and so on.
All this ritual, what of this, is this necessary?
It seems to me that it is fine to preserve the Veda for academic
posterity, and maybe an understanding how all this complexity of the
Indian tradition started, but surely the Bagavadgita lays simply and
purely to guide one to 'Realization/Liberation: Chapter 7

19. At the end of many births the wise man comes to me, realising that
all this is Vasudeva (the innermost Self); such a great soul (Mahatma)
is very hard to find.

20. Those whose wisdom has been rent away by this or that desire, go to
other gods, following this or that rite, led by their own nature.

21. Whatever form any devotee desires to worship with faiththat (same)
faith of his I make firm and unflinching.

22. Endowed with that faith, he engages in the worship of that (form),
and from it he obtains his desire, these being verily ordained by me
(alone).

23. Verily the reward (fruit) that accrues to those men of small
intelligence is finite. The worshippers of the gods go to them, but my
devotees come to me.

In summery the world does not need the the Veda although there are many
practical ideas locked within them.
See the words of Swamiji: 'Follow whatever you want to - the
Gita, Ramayan, Bible or Koran or anything else - but in the end you have to
remove your likes and dislikes - all are same. No likes or dislikes.
They have
to be removed. Gita is liked by all because there is no like or dislike
for any
particular path.'
Finally regard the following: "They are enveloped in darkness, in other
words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of
misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakrti -- the material cause
of the world -- in place of the All-pervading God, But those who worship
visible things born of the prakrti, such as the earth, trees, bodies
(human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater
darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful
hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time."
[Yajur Veda 40:9.]

Here is the paradox, on the one hand animal sacrifice and obscene acts
on the other hand the lines from Yajur Veda, and the pure lines of
Bhagavadgita.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
--------------------------------------------------
I agree that Vedic Culture must be protected and promoted. I believe that the strongest and surest way of promoting Vedic Culture is if

Of all religious groupings in the world Hindus are and have always been the most disunited between themselves to their common detriment. Hindus must unite at the time of every election, but without any jingoisms or notions of Hindu superiority or desire for dominance or to threaten anyone else, to ensure that they actually come out and vote and only vote for parties (candidates are not of much use as we have seen that the party whip is supreme) who safeguard Hinduism, Hindu interests and true secularism, in talk and actual deeds on a continuing basis and without appeasement of any group to create votebank advantage for themselves !

If we are not willing to do this basic and elementary essentials all talk of and efforts at protecting and promoting Vedic Culture will be futile.

Vijay

------------------------------------------
Without Promotion Vedic Culture Cannot be Protected

By Stephen Knapp

Vedic culture has more to offer the world than many care to admit. It has always served the people as a gift from God, a gift from the great sages and rishis to bring humanity to a higher standard of consciousness and living, and a gift from all those Hindus who gave their lives for its continuation throughout the attacks of the last 1000 years from the invaders of India who tried to exterminate the Vedic tradition.

However, many people do not know the profound nature and depth of insights that the Vedic philosophy and tradition has to offer. And no one will know if it is not promoted and taught properly, which seems to be increasingly the case in India. It is not enough to simply do the worship or practice of Vedic Dharma, but a person also needs to know why to do these things. They need to know what's in it for them, and what they are going to get out of it? This is what needs to be explained. It is like this; even if you are an author of a great book, if no one knows about your book, no one will buy it. It has to be promoted. There is no question of this. In the same way, Vedic culture has to be promoted and then taught properly in order for people to realize what it really is and what it actually has to offer.

If you think you can merely sit back and do nothing, and people will still be attracted to investigate the Vedic tradition and its philosophy, then you do not understand the reality of the situation. If you think the acharyas and spiritual masters can merely sit on their high seats and everyone will come to see them at their ashramas and that is enough to preserve and protect Vedic Dharma, then you do not understand the reality of the situation. If you think that there is nothing to worry about because Sanatana-dharma is eternal and will always exist somewhere, then you do not understand the reality of this world, nor the teachings of the Bhagavad-gita. When there are far more people in India converting to Christianity and Islam than to Hinduism, this is no time to sit on our laurels and merely watch to see what happens.

In the West, however, there are still many people who take up Vedic customs, and it continues to grow, but that is primarily because of its promotion, and the freedom that still exists to investigate it deeply. When people see how it can help them reach their true and higher potential, or a deeper level of spirituality and understanding about life, they become interested. They want to know how it can help them. And many are those who look for answers from the Vedic traditions, whether it be through yoga, meditation, Ayurveda, Jyotish, Vastu, or any of the other aspects of Vedic culture. But again, these have to be promoted and taught so people can understand how to proceed and use these for higher benefits.

For example, I've been a practicing Krishna bhakta or Hindu for 40 years, at least in this lifetime. I keep getting stronger in my convictions everyday. But that is because of my deepening realizations that come with the spiritual development that can be attained along the path of Vedic Dharma. And that comes from practicing it and taking it seriously. Then the proof of its validity becomes self-evident.

So, for the general masses, we must look to the future to see what Sanatana-dharma can do for society, and how it fits into the lives of others. But we must also see how we must preserve our place in the world, and protect the future of Vedic Dharma. It is one of the few cultures that actually promotes the freedoms of the individual and does not force a dogma on anyone, but offers a person to make their own choice and to take up any portion of it, according to one's interest and level of awareness. In other words, it does not force a set of rules and then punishments on those who do not follow them. It is not based on the fear that other religions often use to acquire converts and keep everyone in line, and, thus, a part of its congregation. We have discussed this more thoroughly in other articles.

However, the world today is extremely competitive, and every political party or institution is often engaged in promoting itself as the best of all others, and then criticizing and demeaning whatever competition it has. And that can be plainly seen in the world of religions as well. But it is not the nature of the Vedic tradition to do that. Nonetheless, if we are not going to be a doormat for everyone else, there are certain things we need to do.

First, we need to understand the danger of remaining silent. This is often viewed as apathy by many, which is used to the advantage of those who would rather see an end to Vedic Dharma. If we do not take a stand to defend our culture, then others will certainly use that to gain ground for themselves or whatever institution or religion they represent. Therefore, as I have related in other articles, we must understand the need to protect and even promote the Vedic path. The fact of the matter is that you cannot properly protect and preserve Vedic culture in today's world without its promotion.

A FEW WAYS OF PROMOTION

There are many simple and non-imposing ways to do this. It is not like you have to become a salesman, or take to the streets to demonstrate as political activists, or the like. But you can easily do one or a few of several things.

1. Create a spiritual revolution by widespread distribution of spiritual knowledge. There is no deeper spiritual knowledge than what is offered in the Vedic literature. Thus, the more that people have access to this knowledge, the more they will see the depths of it. Therefore, there is a great need for introductory literature and simple explanations of the lofty philosophy in the Vedic tradition. Such books, along with the likes of Bhagavad-gita and other Vedic texts need to be distributed on a wide-scale basis. People everywhere can take advantage of this and use it in their lives. ISKCON, for example, has shown so many different ways of accomplishing this, which anyone can learn how to do.

2. Books that enter mainstream markets with an accurate portrayal of Vedic Dharma and the reasons for its traditions are also very important, which is one area that I work in, along with making more kinds of introductory literature.

3. In this same line of thinking, websites and blogs have been very effective as well. This has also shown that people from many walks of life, even in India, are looking for this knowledge but do not always know where to find it. It has to be more accessible, and websites offer tremendous help in this way.

4. Radio and television shows are also very effective. I have had friends who have taken it upon themselves to arrange for making radio programs about various aspects of Vedic culture, or who have made television shows for the cable networks, which is much simpler than many people may think.

5. Courses for schools are also important. And by schools I do not mean necessarily public schools. There are many private or neighborhood weekend schools that are organized by parents who help train their own children as well as the children of their friends and neighbors in the ways of the Vedic customs, legends, histories, and philosophy. I have met with husband and wife teams in India that do this on Sunday mornings for all the children who want to attend their programs, or even here in America where temples offer fun classes for the children to attend and learn all about the Vedic tradition and the moral values that are part of it.

6. Classes in the temple for adults. Many temples in India do not distribute the Vedic knowledge or teach it. They are mostly open to do the worship and collect donations. But this is not enough to allow people to understand the depth and importance of the philosophy. Therefore, more temples need to create an atmosphere for greater understanding of the traditions they utilize. They need to be centers for higher knowledge and learning, not just a place for rituals that many people do not understand.

7. College and university student clubs and associations. This is easy to do for most any college or university students. They can get permission of the college to form a club or association based on furthering their understanding of Vedic culture, yoga, etc., and have meetings, activities, book readings, slide shows, guest speakers, dinners, and so on. This helps attract more students and encourages everyone to look at and participate in the Vedic tradition more deeply, and see how it really may be able to assist them in their own progress.

8. Acharyas and spiritual teachers should get out of the ashramas and tour and do programs, not only in the cities but also in the villages. They need to show how important it is to them that others also have the rights, freedoms and privilege to participate in the Vedic traditions and its philosophy. This can be very important and inspiring for the common masses to see, and it can create lasting impressions in the public that someone cares about their participation in Vedic culture if the Acharyas and spiritual teachers would do this on a regular basis.

9. Techniques of the Swadhyaya Movement. Beyond merely distributing books, there also needs to be the follow up in ways of engaging people and giving them association for enthusing them to stay together and learn and become active together. The Swadhyaya Movement is an organization that I have admired for a long time now, and who are most successful in this regard. Here is an institution that has been growing intensely for the past 60 years or so, and their techniques of sharing are quite simple but most effective. They mostly do one of two things: first individuals simply invite people they know to come to their meetings in which they learn more about the Bhagavad-gita and the Vedic culture, or they call up people they know and ask to come over for a visit and simply talk and become better friends. Then they may discuss the Bhagavad-gita and invite their new friends to their meetings simply to learn more about their own customs. Then they help serve each other on the basis of the teachings of Lord Krishna. Teaching and inspiring their youth is also very important. They have now developed into an organization of many millions of members worldwide through these simple means. There are many ways that other organizations can do this as well to grow and expand by merely being friends and growing in the Vedic tradition through fellowship.

10. Being Vedic ambassadorsshowing by example & sharing what we know. I have explained more about this in other articles, but the above points can also fit into the idea of merely being a Vedic ambassador and simply showing others how the Vedic tradition and philosophy has helped you, and then share with others your story of how it has done that. This can be done on a personal level or through more technological media, as described above. But it requires very little but a friendly disposition and a little knowledge about your own culture to simply share it with others.

11. Taking care of others. Simply being nice and known as a Hindu or devotee is also part of being a Vedic ambassador. It lends for a good impression on other people about who and what you are. And often times I have seen that when people know you as a decent and upstanding person who follows a particular culture, they want to know more about it. They may ask questions, and how you respond will make a difference in the impression they have about the culture. This is all part of being a Vedic ambassador and helping promote the qualities that are attained by following the Vedic teachings.

12. Inviting others to participate in the colorful and joyful Vedic festivals can also be very effective. Everyone loves a good time, and if you invite others to join or participate in such festivals, it can create lasting impressions of good will. And if they are new to Vedic traditions, if you or someone can show them around and explain things to them about the meaning of what is happening, it will only increase their good impressions and what they get out of it. This may also lead to their desire to learn more or increase their participation in the culture. And all you have to do is simply show your friendly personality and be yourself.

People need a reason to unite, to feel unified for a cause. Are we going to supply the means and the reason for this? Or are we going to sit back and wonder why someone else should have done this? We have to see the need to do this and then get up and be active in the same way that Lord Krishna encouraged Arjuna to be active to defend Vedic Dharma. There are so many ways to do this, of which the above list is a few.

These are but important suggestions on how to easily promote the Vedic Dharma, which is necessary if we expect to protect and preserve it. There are, of course, many other things that can be done, many of which I have written about elsewhere. But see which ones pique your interest or fit your character and then move forward with a plan to help out, or team up and help with others who may already have some ideas or are engaged in such ways. This will greatly assist everyone in their own spiritual growth and development, and also help the world attain a higher recognition of who we are and the purpose of life, which we all share.

Further action plans and details of these are given in my book "Crimes Against India: And the Need to Protects its Ancient Vedic Tradition."

By Stephen Knapp

===============================================

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[gita-talk] Re: Gita's View on Idol Worship, Is Idol Worship against Vedas and Not Recommended?

2012-01-23T19:40:00.000-08:00

Sir,

I will be grateful if you can give views of Gita on Idol worship. Many claim that Idol worship is against the Vedas and it is not recommended.

Regards,

Satish Oberoi

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Dear All,

Worship and prayer are modes of communicating with the all-pervading,omnipresent Divine, with a deep sense of Bhakti(roughly, devotion).
Nobody 'worships' idols as such.The expression 'idol worship' is misleading. People worship God in many ways; one such way is through idols or photographs.
One cannot pray to or worship 'nothingness'. Therefore, we must have a symbol or shape to keep our eyes on or to meditate upon or beseech or speak to.
If someone tells you that he does not worship any image , be rest assured, he is telling a lie ! A Muslim, for example, says he does not pray to idols or photographs;
but when he prays he brings to his mind the image of the Kabba or a similar structure or a mosque, or a saint or a darga. He does not pray to 'nothingness'
because it is not possible, by definition, to visualise 'nothingness'. He too, therefore, is praying to a shape or image that he brings to his mind. So is the case with
other religionists. They too have some symbol or image to pray to or worship.There is no such thing as a superior mode or method of worship, as long as one
prays or worships with total surrender and a deep sense of involvement in the Divine.

SO THEREFORE, REMEMBER , YOU ARE NOT WORSHIPPING OR PRAYING TO AN IDOL , BUT TO GOD, THE DIVINE. THAT IS JUST A SYMBOL FOR YOU TO KEEP YOUR MIND ON.

K.A.K.RAO.

---------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

All the beings are idols (MURTAYA SAMBHAVANTI YAAH-GitaJi 14/4) produced by the combination of lower/APARAA and higher/PARAA natures of the Supreme (GitaJi 7/4-5-6, GitaJi-13/26) . Lord KrishNa, the Supreme, in the form of manifested idol (i.e. VYAKTA MURTI) himself says that everything is pervaded by me as un-manifested idol (AVYAKTA MURTINA - GitaJi 9/4) and not only that he is the universe/multiverse (VISWAMURTI GitaJi-11/46). The Supreme idol, whether manifested or unmanifested is beyond any imagination created with nature produced mind, intellect etc. He, being manifested, is fully unmanifested and vice versa. He has hands, legs, eyes, heads, mouths, ears everywhere and he is sitting while being all pervading. He experiences all the senses without having senses. He takes care of whole world without being attached. He enjoys all the attributes being free from attributes (GitaJi -13/13-14). He has infinite forms (ANANTROOPA, VISWAROOP, CHATURBHUJA, DVIBHUJA,..) . He has infinite names (RAM, KRISHNA, VISHNU, SHIVA, DURGA, GANESH, SKANDA, ... .).

Dear Mike Sir,
In my understanding, the translation of Gita 7-24 , as you have mentioned, is not correct. It has ignored the word AAPANNAM/limited/restricted. Because of that it has changed the whole meaning. You may want to look some other translations/commentaries.
Its should be like.....
The ignorant, not knowing my Supreme imperishable unparalleled BHAAVAM/nature/existence, think of me (the Lord/Bhagavaan who is already manifested and talking to Arjun), the unmanifest, as being limited by the manifestation (i.e. his manifestation is like ordinary being).
Similarily, we must not ignore the word "AASHRITAM" in GitaJi - 9/11 which is also talking about the same fact.

Also, your following sentence does not reflect the true meaning of the those verses.
Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."
These verses do not indicate that "idol worship is bad". Here, in 20-21, it is said that the ignorant, full of material desires/KAAMs worship various TANUM/bodies/forms of demigods and the Lord directs their SHRADDHA/faiths/sentiments to those demigods.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

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Hari Om

This refers to postings of Brother Mike and Humble Saadhaka re: Idol Worship. Rest all saadhaks have given their categorical views in favour of idol worship. I beg pardon of all of you for a detailed reply- exceeding Moderator's Guidelines.

RE: OBSERVATI0NS OF BROTHER MIKE

At the outset my compliments for your deep research , study (svadhyaay) and striving. Your research is doing Divine service to all of us, believe me on that.

Gita is the nectar of all Scriptures including Vedas . It categorically believes in 'idol-worship' ... in all types of idol worship.. clearly and correctly so. There are no contradictions among Gita, Vedas , Upanishads, Bhagvatam, Ramcharitmanas or any other Great scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. Absolutely there are no contradictions at least on as important and crucial issue as idol worship. There is no question of "idol worship falling short of real thing"...oh no .. ! If ordinances of Scriptures are followed, certain idol worships get you the real thing most certainly..undeniably..easily..demonstrably..logically !!

At the same time it should be clear that you do not worship stone , you always worship Paramatma /Demi God...etc etc situate in that stone, metal, clay etc etc The Kabir's doha (two liner) referred by the Humble Most Sadhak is talking of those, who see merely a stone or some other thing but not Paramatma in that stone (Kabir attacked belief-less blind rituals more and tamasic worshipping Just As Gita too attacked them ).

The following are some verses of Gita from where the sanctity for idol worship can be inferred:-

Devotees prostrating before Me worship Me with devotion. (9/14); Whoever offers Me with devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I accept that pious offering of the pure in heart (9/26); Worship of God (in his five forms Visnu, Siva, Durga, Ganesa and Sun-God, of the twice born, of teachers (including parents and elders) and of the wise liberated souls this is called austerity of the body (17/14).

If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita. In the same manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. It means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline."

As regards your observations pertaining to worshippers of demi-gods going different way, as compared with worshippers of the Supreme referred in Gita ( 5 Supreme category Gods - Ganesha, Sun, Durga (Shakti), Vishnu and Siva) , firstly please note that idol worship is not limited to these two categories only. As per Gita, Idol worship can also be of
Yakshas (Say Kuber- Rajasic type ) ; Rakshashas ( Say Raavan- Rajasic Type) (BG 17:) ; of Pittars (abode of dead ancestors, elders, parents -9:25/17:4 - Rajasic) ; Bhoots, Pret ganas ( ghosts, spirits - 17- tamasic type ); Dwijas (Brahmins, Yogis, Teachers - 17:14) ; Seers and Saints/ Liberated Souls..17:14 ; Great Mountains (Refer Govardhan worship) , Rivers, ...what not ? Sure...but so what? How does that mean that Scriptures are contradicting between themselves? Idol worship is not controversially recognised in different scriptures - certainly not ? It is unanimously recognised. It is not that Vedas say something and Gita says another ! No... Not at all..! Results may be different based on Bhavas of worshipper but that is the case every where else be it charity or austerity or yagyas (sarifices) ..!!

Let me explain on your views one by one.

.. go to the different planetary systems where various demigods are situated,

Yes ! How does it vitiate the sanctity for idol worship? It does not. There are different results for different karmas emanating out of exercise of power of belief by different Jeevas. Those who worship Supreme alone (through say 5 forms) are worshipping only and exclusively Him and Him alone. Balance may be materialists even , may go to hells too, but so what? Where is contradiction among Scriptures? Where it is wriiten in Gita that idol worship always gets you God ?

just as a worshipper of the sun achieves the sun

Sun is one of the five Supreme. Sun is not demi-god. He is God Himself.

or a worshipper of the demigod of the moon achieves the moon. It is not that everyone, regardless of whatever demigod is worshipped, will reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Sure..! But which scripture promised that idol worship always gets you God? And how does that vitiate the sanctity for idol worship? Tamasic types worship idols of ghosts and spirits also but so what if they go to hells or become ghosts themselves?

That is denied here, for it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to different planets in the material world but the devotee of the Supreme Lord goes directly to the supreme planet of the Personality of Godhead.

So what...? Yes...where is contradiction?

Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence."

It has nothing to do with idol worship.

Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."

Yeah Sure..! So what ? What is the contradiction? Do Vedas say otherwise?

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images."

Where are images? The idols are as per descriptions given in Scriptures. Lord Siva having quarter moon on His Forehead or having Ganges in His hairs is not an image nor is Durga holding weapons or riding on Lion is some imagination.. Nor Lord Hanuman is output of imagination ..Nor Ganesha nor Sun ..Nor Rama nor Krishna ..who is out of imagination ? None.. ! Which demi-god or God etc is an image?

Yajur Veda 32:3: "God is formless and bodiless"

Okay but there is 'Samgra' of Him also. Where the Sakun Sakaar, Nirgun Nirakaar, Sagun Nirakaar etc are denied here. How does it contradict idol worship? Gita also says so at many places exactly or similarly. So what..?

Yajur Veda 40:8: "All those who worship the uncreated things, they are in
darkness, and you'll enter more into darkness if you worship the created things."

Who is worshipping stones ? Idol worship does not mean worshipping stone. You worship Supreme God, or Demi Gods, or Yakshas or Demons or Ghosts believed to be situated in them by you..! All of them are not created/uncreated by worshippers, for example, the idols may be created by sculptors but not God or demi gods believed to be situated in them . Lord Siva or Krishna or Ganesha ..they are not created or uncreated things..nay ..not at all. Actually, here Vedas are confirming Gita and talking about ghastly and tamasic idol worshipping.

Rig Veda, Vol.8,1:1: "All Praise are to Him alone"

Sure ! Who praises worship of tamasic type? Gita has not praised that. Gita has praised only of Supreme ; but then comes Devatas (sattwik) , then Yakshas/Rakshashas- Rajasic) , tamasic all sorts ..! Where iis praise in Gita also of any other except Him alone? Where is contradiction?

Rig Veda, Vol.6,45:16: "There is only One God, worship Him."

Sure ! But where does it say no one can worship any other ? Jeeva has "power to believe" ..a tamasic person may believe in ghost and as a result can become that also. Jeeva can go to hell also because of that but so what? Where is contradiction ?

RE: OBSERVATIONS OF HUMBLE SAADHAKA

As regards observations of Humbly Saadhaka, who claims unshakeable belief in Vasudev Sarvam, and always says 'All is God' but does not believe in 'murti pooja' and thinks that it is 'strange and beyond comprehension'.. my answer is 'Doosara Ayaa Kahaan Se (How other has come)' ?...If All is God where is scope for feeling strange? But, Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj says:

"He who does not worship anything, and only MAKES UP TALKS, he cannot realize that "God is everywhere"....
But those who merely say that God pervades everywhere but don't hold any object in reverence, have no divine sentiments of worship and devotion, and they are not really called devotees because they simply articulate "God is Everywhere" but do not really believe it; that is, they have not really turned towards God."

As regards question of the Humbly Saadhaka that " How can any idol represent the tattva or Paramaatmaa [assigned to be sarvavyaapak and anaadi and anant]? My answer is: Sir, if He is 'sarvavyaapak' then why can't He be in stone also? What is devoid of Him? Doosara Aaya Kahaan Se? - But the answer of Param Shraddheya Swamiji is:

"Worship of God through the medium of a "murti" is a matter of faith rather than of reasoning. The glory of God is revealed to those who have faith in Him. The worship and adoration done by these devotees is accepted and partaken by God. It means God manifest Himself in an idol, in front of a devotee who worships Him with faith and devotion."

That is what Swamiji has said, My Dear Humbly Saadhaka ! Now come to your observations about cow worship. Is there no God in a cow? DOOSARA KAHAAN SE AAYA ? Reply..! What difference does it make to the worship of cow or the God present therein if some body uses Liv-52 or has Italian marble flooring or likes creamy milk of a buffalo? Now read what Swamiji said about cow worship:

"In other words, to experience "God is everywhere," worship of cow are an immense aid. This is because the worshiper, has begun to believe that "God is everywhere".

How can you believe in Vasudev Sarvam and not believe in idol worship or cow worship, this phenomena therefore is strange and incomprehensible to us !!! Please enlighten us and oblige ! This is what remains to be learnt My Dear Humbly Saadhak !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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very good reading .all many aspects have been covered nicely --jai shri krishna
Chaman nigam

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Gita's view on Idol worship is very simple and clear. Gita says that
the Ultimate Truth to be realised is that God is in everything however
big or infintsimal and everything is in God. This appears very abstract to start with and difficult to realize even follwing the various methods of yoga. It is therefore ntural that many people will like to visualise to start with God as something they can perceive easily, for example a force of nature like Fire or storm or thunder of an animal or a bird or a human being and they would like to keep looking at the picture or idol of such an image of God in the front of their eyes and in their mind to pray to him or worship him. This is like learning A for apple and b for bat in class 1: it is only after some years of scholling that one learbnns languages and only at a later stage learn to appreciate literature, novels, potetry etc. Similarly we learn to conut at the childhood age, thenn learn arithmatic and much later we can learn alegbra and calculus. Not all people get to the stage of mastering literature and hgher mathematics. In the seeking of the ultimate truth, some people will start at the class 1 stage and may remain there or reach upto class8. This is where idol worship is important. But some of them will go to Ohd leel or beyond in search of ultimate tryth as many
saints have done like Shri Ramakrishna, or Kabir. Eveb\n after they have
realised the Truth, they may continue ido worship. Since od resides in
everything, idol worhip is not inconsistent with Gita: but remaining in
idol worship without being able to realise the Truth is a failure to go
up: yet even sincere idol worship on a regular basis gives considerable
inner strentg to the people to live happily amidst all problems. It is
valuable in itself even if the timate Truth is not realised. But one
must know that God does not remain limited to a particular idol and must
not have an ego of pride tat one is worshipping an idol of God.
Vedas prescribe varoious rituals associated with worshipping God ad His
various forms like Fire, Sun, Earth etc. But Gita says that the ultimate
Tuth cannot be realised simply by following the rituals unless one fully submits to God, gives up all ego and desires, anger and hate, Rituals should enable complete submission to God and love for all.
You may like to read Swami Vivekanada's essays on Yoga, especially
BVakti Yga and Gyan Yoga to know his interpretation on this subject of
idol worship.

Basudeb Sen

------------------------------------------

as we who are born in hindu families are exposed to idol worship fron the day we come to think or talk --first words that we hear is the name of ram, krishna ,shiv or any other god [incarnation]mata we are taught to namaskar or chant or the morning [good morning]by the name of god ,how can we br or our dharm [sanatan dharm ]be against idol worship .as said by swami Vivekannd - Hinduism is a way of life --you may not hardly follow the rituals but thinking and living is effected by the hinduism .jai shree krishna .

Chaman Nigam

====================================

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

From: Hindu Scriptural evidence against making and worshipping idols.
Bhagavat Gita 7-23 : Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.
Purport: Some commentators on the BG say that one who worships a demigod can reach the Supreme Lord, but here it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to the different planetary systems where various demigods are situated, just as a worshipper of the sun achieves the sun or a worshipper of the demigod of the moon achieves the moon. It is not that everyone, regardless of whatever demigod is worshipped, will reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is denied here, for it is clearly stated that the worshippers of demigods go to different planets in the material world but the devotee of the Supreme Lord goes directly to the supreme planet of the Personality of Godhead.
Bhagavat Gita 7-24: "The ignorant believe that un-manifest Para Brahma (One God) incarnates or takes manifestations, because they do not completely understand My highest, immutable, incomparable, and transcendental existence."
Bhagavat Gita 7:19-21: "All those who do idol worship, All those who worship demigods are materialistic people."

Yajur Veda 3:32: "...Of that God you cannot make any images."

Yajur Veda 32:3: "God is formless and bodiless"

Yajur Veda 40:8: "All those who worship the uncreated things, they are in
darkness, and you'll enter more into darkness if you worship the created things."

Rig Veda, Vol.8,1:1: "All Praise are to Him alone"

Rig Veda, Vol.6,45:16: "There is only One God, worship Him."

So from that above it seems that idol worship falls short of the real thing.
Someone may ask me do you have any idols in your house, well I have an image of Guanyin and two Golden Buddhas, do I worship them, light candles, burn incense, offer gifts to them no, I just like their appearance, maybe they reflect a deep part of me, my bhava, do they stir in me something? Sometimes yes, do I use them for devotion? NO. They ultimately remind me of compassion and empathy, 'The Beloved' I really do not need to be reminded of.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike

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IT IS FAR MORE KNOWLEDGE GIVING IF THE SUBJECT MATTER IS CONSIDERED IDOL USAGE THAN WORSHIP.IDOLS SERVE AS STORAGE DEVICES OF INITIAL INPUT ENERGY AND SUBSEQUENT PRAYERS AVAIL THE BENEFIC BLESSINGS.
subhashtewari

--------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Idol worship is ideal for sadaks. One has to concentrate all his mind on ONE thing first without any distraction. So a person first stars with idol worship, develops devotion, this devotion develops into Bakthi, this bakthis develops into Nis Kama prema Bakthi, the he see GOD everywhere and in everything like Prahalad. Only when mind reaches a stage where a person sees God as Omnipresent the he reaches godliness. God is said by Vedas, "Akshranam" (Divine Sound) Om, "apprameyam" (God cannot be seen with eyes and felt like object), which again means idol worship level overcome. Many Bakthas like Meera, Tukaram, Tulasidoss, Markandeya etc all first worshiped idol. The they reached heights where they saw God everywhere and in everything, then gave NO importance to idol worship.
B.Sathyanarayan

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Hari Om

Divine Moderators have already attached comprehensive views of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ! What then remains to be said? Ha..the very framing and language of question then becomes questionable !!!

No worship of Supreme is against Vedas ! You don't worship idol/ stone..you worship the 'avyakta' (unmanifest) Paramatma, interalia, situated in that stone ! It is your inner 'bhava' (sentiment) that gets credit not the outer couch. Your heart must melt in devotion. Swamiji often said: Yardstick of Vasudev Sarvam realisation is that what you get by worshipping an idol in a temple, you get the same thing by making prayer before a torn cloth !! It is 'bhava' all along !!
Actually , said Swamiji, to have a vision/thought/drishti of food in the prasad of God (Thakurji), drishti of water in Thakurji's charanamrit ( water which touched the legs of Thakurji's idol), drishti of stone in Thakurji's Shree Vigrah (idol) and of caste(jaati) in a Sadhu ..these drishtis take the seer into hells. Hence when you worship idol , your view/drishti/thought/vision/bhava should of seeing God in it...it should not be seeing a stone !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
--------------------------------------------

Idol worship Poojaa Upaasanaa

Worship is an act in reverential submission. Worship to anything ought to be worship to The God. As Bhagavadgita declares often, the worship is always submitted to The Supreme irrespective of who and what is worshipped because HE IS EVERYTHING! Actually, there is no act that is not a worship in the whole universe because all acts and the very action is ever submitted to THAT ... Karma Brahmodbhavam viddhi! Therefore, there is no problem in worshipping any idol of your choice! However, one should be very cognizant that worshipping is FOR ONE'S OWN BENEFIT! GOD does not need any. The very notion that "HE may" drops the very god into a mere image, an inert, irresponsive and indifferent idol generating kind of desolation within the seeker.

Idolization is natural to any being. One puts forth one's life with idolization mother, then father, etc. Idolization is the natural way of learning survival, imbibing the acts of survival that the idol exhibits and suggests. Since, idolization is so natural to everyone, it is the easiest approach for seeking Truth as well and hence promoted heavily in our scriptures. But, it is worthwhile noting certain subtleties here!

There are two types of worship: Poojaa and Upaasanaa. Both are meant for spiritual upliftment in the seeker's appreciation and are prescribed depending upon the nature of seeker.

Poojaa is one where the seeker submits oneself completely to another entity. An idol becomes a must in such an act. The worshipped entity ought to be relatively superior to the worshipper. The surrender becomes stronger as the worshipper perceives deeper sense of reverence toward the worshipped, The Idol. The prescription on Poojaa is to expand the very idol - be it an idea or an idol, or a picture or a person or nature or earth or sun or anything else - to its universal presence. Though the prescription is almost foolproof in its intent of dropping ego (Manonaasha) and realization (Aatmabodha), it has a subtle residual problem:

(1) Manonaasha: A trace of ego is shifted into the idol instead. For example, the worshippers often become violent if their idols are not respected in any form.

(2) Aatmabodha: The seekers stumble on mental blocks as the idol perceived is limited in its existential sense. Often, the seekers cannot break that barrier to appreciate the universal awareness.

As far as the worshipper (Poojaari) is always reminded of Poojaa's true intent, Poojaa is the most feasible, approachable and effective path for a seeker.

Upaasana, on other hand, means a paradigm shift. As the scripts says, the fellow within seems to be split in two - Ritam pibantou sukritasya loke ... one actively enjoying the ever-changeful world and another staying without any changes just as a witness. Upaasanaa is to shift oneself (as an individual perceived as doer, knower as well as enjoyer) to an epicenter in one's own perceived universe, to become the witness in spite of being active in this world. ANY ACT WHERE ONE IS ABLE TO EXPERIENCE THE WITNESS IS VERILY UPAASANAA! Once THE WITNESS is experienced, EVERYTHING is experienced as THAT IS EVERYTHING!

As mentioned earlier Poojaa is the starting point for any as it is closest to one's nature of day-to-day survival. Therefore one needs to bridge between Poojaa and Upaasanaa. Accordingly, Upaasanaa is of two types - SaguNa and NirguNa.

SaguNopaasanaa leads the seeker with the Poojaa with a paradigm shift - offset yourself to a witness of both the worshipper and the worshipped. It provides an opportunity to witness subject as well as object OBJECTIVELY... an opportunity to appreciate the true nature of the individual as opposed to the idol involved! ... an opportunity to appreciate all individuals and all idols collectively!! ... an opportunity to peek at a potential reality beyond all perceived qualities (GuNas)!!!

NirguNopaasanaa raises from SaguNopaasanaa as the witness stand becomes stronger. The seeker graduates naturally to appreciate the merger of the two distinct entities - the worshipper and the idol in their presence (Vyaakrita, SaguNa)! The empowered witness enables one to see the inseparable conjugate pair in their absence (Avyaakrita, NirguNa) as well!! One starts realizing the SaguNa in NirguNa and vice versa!!! The realization starts dawning in the horizons of one's innate presence ... THE ONE THAT EVER IS remains AS EVER ... all worshippers, all idols and yet neither a worshipper nor an idol, but JUST THAT.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
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Respecting Idol worship, Respecting our Nation's/Team's Flag or Symbol, or Respecting our holy books are all alike.
In all of them we create a Form to evoke the sentiments. Thats the most easy and superior way for Humans to work for higher cause.

Human emotions quickly respond to external stimulus. We can stimulate them to move towards a higher or lower cause. Idols, Flags, books, symbols are the external stimulis whereby we can employ/direct the emotions towards higher cause.

regds,
rakesh

---------------------------------------------
Strange and beyond comprehension is this moorti-poojaa.
How can any idol represent the tattva or Paramaatmaa [assigned to be sarvavyaapak and anaadi and anant]?
What is to be said about polluting the air in several ways and worshipping pawan devataa?
The same is the case with cows. People prefer buffalo's creamy milk and consider cow's milk for the sick persons and children. Who cares what Bhai Sathyanarayan said? No man uses cow dung in marble floored rooms. Who (except one or two) will give gaumootra in liver trouble of kids instead of Liv-52 or alike?
Worshipping of idols in temples and letting the invalid and the diseased sleep hungry stomach in the neighbourhood.
Kabeer said,''paahan pooje se hari mile, to main poojoon pahaad ...."
What else remains there to learn?
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

---------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please read the attached Article by Swamiji from "Gita Darpan" published by Gita Press. Let us know if this has been helpful. Sadhaks please express your insights from the "scriptures"/Gita, regarding this topic. Ram Ram

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

On Idol Worship in the Gita

Ye sanatana dharmasthaah sraddhaa prema samanvitah |

Murti pujan na kurvanti murtau tu prabhu pujanam ||

According to our eternal Vedic principles devotees do not worship idols, rather they worship only God. It means God (Supreme Consciousness) pervades everywhere, however, to be particularly aware of Him, a "murti" (no exact translation, idol is being used) is created for worshiping Him. By doing so, meditation and thinking about God can takes place very easily and continuously.

If it is the "murti" that is being worshiped, then a devotee should have the sentiments within of it being a "murti", that it is stone from a particular mountain, it was created by some person, and brought here by another! In other words, O' Lord of stones, you please lead me to my salvation. However, no one says such a thing at all. Then how is it considered "murti" idol worship? Therefore devotees do not do idol worship, however they worship God in the "murti". This sort of worship is the beginning of devotion. This worship continues even when a devotee attains perfection.

Regarding "murti puja" the Lord declares in the Gita, "Devotees prostrating before Me worship Me with devotion. (9/14); "Whoever offers Me with devotion, a leaf, a flower, a fruit or water, I accept that pious offering of the pure in heart" (9/26); "Worship of God (in his five forms Visnu, Siva, Durga, Ganesa and Sun-God, of the twice born, of teachers (including parents and elders) and of the wise liberated souls this is called austerity of the body (17/14). If there is no "murti", how will a devotee prostrate and to whom will he offer leaves, flowers, fruits and water etc? It proves that there is description of worship of "murti" in the Gita.

In the same manner if a devotee worships a cow, a basil-plant, a peepala-tree, the twice born, a liberated soul, the Govardhana mountain, the Ganga and the Yamuna etc., their worship is also worship of God. This sort of worship easily leads a devotee to the thought that God pervades everywhere. In other words, to experience "God is everywhere," worship of cow are an immense aid. This is because the worshiper, has begun to believe that "God is everywhere". On the other hand he who does not worship anything, and only makes up talks, he cannot realize that "God is everywhere". It means that worship of God through the medium of an "murti" is a beneficial, virtuous spiritual discipline.

Besides worship of God, to worship body made of bones and flesh, in other words, to adorn our bodies with make-up, beautiful ornaments and clothing and building luxurious homes and decorating it with beautiful objects, is nothing but worship of idols which will lead to ruin.

** Something Worth Knowing **

Generally all the believers hold the opinion that God pervades everywhere; But those who have started worshiping Him through the medium of an "murti" or the Veda, the Sun, the pipal, the tulsi plant or cow etc. are really speaking, believers in God's all pervasiveness. Because, those who accept the presence of God in an "murti", the Veda, the Sun, etc, will on their own, begin to believe in the presence of God everywhere, and in all beings. Those who accept the presence of God only in a "murti" etc., they have been called "Prakrta" (Beginners) (Srimadbhaag 11/2/47) because they have begun the practice of worshippng God in one place, in other words, they have turned towards (developed inclination for) God. But those who merely say that God pervades everywhere but don't hold any object in reverence, have no divine sentiments of worship and devotion, and they are not really called devotees because they simply articulate "God is Everywhere" but do not really believe it; that is, they have not really turned towards God.

Worship of God through the medium of a "murti" is a matter of faith rather than of reasoning. The glory of God is revealed to those who have faith in Him. The worship and adoration done by these devotees is accepted and partaken by God. Just like God ate the "Kitchadi" (cooked rice and lentil) prepared by Karma bai; God ate the tikkad (flat bread cake) from devotee Dhannaa; God drank the milk prepared by Meera bai etc. It means God manifest Himself in an idol, in front of a devotee who worships Him with faith and devotion.

Question: How do we know whether God accepts and partakes in the food offered to Him by devotees?

Answer: In God's kingdom things do not hold importance, rather it is the sentiments "bhaav" that are important. It is due to sentiments only that God partakes in the food and the actions offered to Him. When a devotee has the sentiments of feeding God from the core of his heart, then God begins to feel hungry. Because of the sentiments of the devotee, the food that is partaken by God, that thing does not remain perishable, rather it becomes divine. Even if there is some defect in the sentiment of devotion, He is satisfied merely by the offer of food to Him. For God to be satisfied, things and actions are not important, rather only the sentiments are important. The saints also declare that God relishes the simplest dishes offered with devotion but He rejects the most delicious dishes offered without devotion.

Once I came across a devotee who served a saint with great reverence. He said that he knew that the saint was thirsty. So when he took water for the saint, the saint drank it. Similarly a chaste wife comes to know when her husband is hungry and thirsty and what dish he will relish in lunch or dinner etc. When that dish is offered to the husband, he declares that today he wanted to have that very same dish. Similarly a devotee comes to know when God is hungry and thirsty and foods God wants to relish.

A few anecdotes may illustrate the point -

There was a priest in a temple. His favorite deity was Bal Gopal (Krishna, as a boy). He used to make small "ladoos" (a sweet dish, a sweetmeat in the form of a ball) and place it near his head at night while sleeping because children get hungry at night. On day he forgot to put the put the "ladoos" so at night Bal Gopal told him in his dream, that I am feeling hungry. There is a similar incident. There was an ascetic. Every year after Diwali, he offered cashews, almonds, pistachios, walnuts etc. to the Lord. One year the nuts became very expensive, so he began to offer peanuts to the Lord. One day the Lord said to him in a dream - What ! Are you going to feed me only peanuts? Thereafter he once again began to offer cashews, almonds etc. Before he had some doubts as to whether God was partaking in the offerings or not? But once God told him in his dreams, then all his doubts vanished. This means that when food is offered to God, He becomes hungry and he accepts and partakes in it.

There was a sage who had a great appetite. One day he fell very sick. Someone advised him to frequently drink the cow's milk, but to only drink that milk that remains after the calf has been fed. He followed the advice of first letting the calf be well-fed and thereafter extracting and drinking the remaining cow's milk was quite filling. After a few days he recovered and became healthy. The act of justice has so much power that it can cure even sickness and satisfy the sage, then what to speak of an object that is offered with devotion to God !

Everyone must have realized the fact that when a person offers you food with love and affection, then that food has extra-ordinary flavor, it is delicious and that food helps in maintaining divine traits in you. Even animals are no exception. They too are influenced by the sentiments. When a cow dies leaving its calf behind, the calf is fed on milk of another cow. The calf remains alive with that milk, but he does not become well-nourished. The same calf if he had drank the mother's milk, then the mother would lick his body with love, and feed him, by which even with a little bit of milk, the calf would have become well nourished and healthy. When even human beings and animals are affected by the sentiment of affection, then what to speak of God Who knows even the hearts, minds and sentiments of devotees? It was because of this devotion of Vidura's wife that Lord Krishna ate the banana peel offered with great devotion. Again it was out of affection of the gopis (that Lord Krishna ate curd and butter by snatching it from their hands. The Lord says to Brahma -

"Naivedhyam purato nyastam chakshushaa grhyate mayaa |

Rasam cha daasjihvaayaamshraami kamalobhdava ||

"O lord of the Lotus! I accept and partake in the food preparations put before Me through My eyes but I relish these foods through the tongue of My devotee."

I have also heard the saints saying that sometimes God sees the food offered to Him with devotion, sometimes He touches it and sometimes He also eats a part of it.

As the father of a child gets pleased if the child hands over something to him, then he is very pleased, the father lifts his hands and says to the child, and tells the child to grow big and tall. Was that thing unattainable by the father? Did the father get anything of great importance when the child gave that thing to him? No! The father is pleased, simply due to the sentiments of giving expressed by the child. Similarly, God is not lacking in anything. Nor does God desire anything. Then too God is pleased when a devotee expresses the sentiment of giving (making an offering). But those people who decorate the temples and the idols only for cheating people, who offer delicious dishes to Him to deceive, then God does not accept their offerings. Such people, don't actually worship God, rather they are worshiping money, individuals and selfishness.

Those who call the devotees who make offerings to God, who worship and revere God as hypocrites, and themselves being filled with pride, consider that they are better, and not hypocrites, then such individuals cannot attain salvation. Those who are engaged in performing virtuous deeds in whatever way they can, they are virtuous as such, while those who renounce virtuous deeds out of pride will reap adverse fruit for their evil deeds.

Question - The wicked break "murti" of God, then why does God not reveal His powers, His miracles ?

Answer - He who does not have good sentiments towards God's idols, he who is averse to those who worship and pray to God's idols, and he who destroys the idols out of hatred, why at all would God reveal His powers and His miracles in front of these people? God's greatness is revealed when there is faith.

Those who worship God in an Idol due to their sentiments - "God is present in this Idol" being weak, therefore when evil men who destroy the idols, God does not reveal His powers. But those devotees who have complete and implicit faith and belief that "God is present in this idol," then there God reveals His miraculous powers. Just like in Gujarat near Surat there is a temple of Lord Siva. In the emblem of Lord Siva (Siva Linga) there are many holes. The reason is that when the Muslims came to destroy that emblem of Lord Siva, innumerable large bees came out of that emblem and it caused the Muslims to flee.

The candidates who want to pass an examination respect the examiner because their success depends on him. But God has not to pass any one's examination. Because God's passing in exam does not make Him greater, and His failure does not make Him weaker. Just as when Ravana sends Maricha disguised as a fraudulent golden deer in order to put Lord Rama to test, the Lord chases the deer. It means that He fails in the test given to Him by Ravana. Now what certificate did he wish to get from Ravana! Similarly God fails in the examination given to him by those who destroy temples. The Lord does not reveal His glory to them because they come to Him with evil sentiments rather than as devotees.

A man according to his sentiments has different dealings with his wife, mother, and sister, though the female bodies are of a similar type. Similarly an idol made of stone, brass or silver is God for a devotee while for a non-believer it is merely an idol made of stone, brass or silver. The properties of each are different, but the sentiments are one and the same (i.e. it is the presence of God in the idol). It is in the sentiments that one can find God -

"God reside neither in wood nor in stone nor in clay but He resides in the sentiment; therefore sentiment plays an important role." (Garuda. Uttara 3/10)

There was an ascetic, that was free from worldly desires. He had two idols - one of the Lord Ganesa and another of a rat - both of the same weight. The ascetic had to go to Ramesvarama for pilgrimage. So he wanted to sell the two idols to a goldsmith. The goldsmith weighed the two and said that he would pay Rs. 500 for each. The ascetic said, "How can both cost the same? One of them is Lord Ganesa while the other is his vehicle." The goldsmith said, "Sir! I don't value Lord Ganesa or the rat; I value only gold". The ascetic's sight was only on Lord Ganesa and the rat whereas the goldsmith's sight was only on the gold. Similarly those who destroy idols perceive stone and brass etc., rather than God in the idol.

In fact all animate and inanimate beings and objects etc., are the manifestations of God. Those who have the sentiments and believe that God pervades every where, behold God in every being and object. But those who attach importance to the world, they behold the various beings and objects as separate. Similar it can be understood with the idols.

Question - The wicked break idols of God, then why does God not reveal His powers, His miracles ? (continued)

Answer: (continued) People worship the deities (idols) with faith, they sing glories and pray to the Lord; because they see something extra-ordinary in the idol; but those who destroy the idols, they too perceive something special in these idols. If they did not see anything special in these idols, then why would they only destroy the idols, why do they not break other stones? In other words, they too believe there is something extra-ordinary in the idol. It is only due to hatred for those who have faith and to want to cause pain and suffering to them that they destroy the idols.

Out of jealousy and egoism, some people, destroy the temples that were constructed according to the limits and boundaries established of customs and as prescribed in the scriptures and they destroy the idols that were invoked with the spirit of God (praan pratishthaa) through a formal process. They do so in order to hurt the feelings of believers, to distress them, to transgress their ethical propriety, and to earn their own name and fame. Out of that hatred, they destroy idols, to invoke pain and distress in the hearts of Hindus, for generations to come as these Hindus on seeing these broken deities are reminded. Such persons have to meet with an extremely evil fate. They go to the treacherous hells because their intentions are evil, to give pain and suffering to others, to destroy others. The outcome of evil intentions is also evil. But those who apply all their strength to protect the temples and the deities, and even sacrifice their lives, they meet with a good end because their intentions were good.

If we respect a learned man, then as such, we are revering the knowledge, not the person's body made of flesh and bones. Similarly those who believe in the presence of God in the deities (idols), they worship God only. Through the deities it is God only that is being revered, not the deity. Those who do not believe in God in a deity (idol), the glory of God is not revealed in front of them; whereas God's glories manifest in front of a believer.

Question: Why should we do murti puja (worship idols)? What is the need of Murti Puja (idolatry?

Answer: We should worship deities (idols) in order to increase the sentiment of devotion, to awaken that sentiment and to please God. It is also essential to get rid of the importance we have placed for this world in our inner faculties, and to get rid of the various attachments and infatuations to the world. By the worship of God through the deity (idol), by offering flower garlands, by adorning the Lord, by offering homage with kindled lamps and by offering various food preparations to the Lord are all very essential. The point is by worshiping the deities, we gain doubly our sentiment of devotion is awakened and enhanced and our "sense of mine" and attachment to the mundane objects is renounced.

Every person should hold one place in their heart, for which he is willing to renounce everything. That place may either be God, or a saint or great soul, or mother-father, or a teacher. By doing so, man's worldly sentiments are reduced and spiritual sentiments increase.

As part of a pilgrimage, a group of people were going around Kasi. A guide was showing them around the various temples and made them prostrate before the emblem of Lord Siva to worship Him. Among the group were a few modern day boys. They disliked paying their obeisance at the various different places and so they remarked. "What is the benefit of prostrating so often at the various deities? There was a saint who listened to them. He said to the boys. Brothers, just as you reside in this body made of flesh and bones, so does God reside in the idol. Your life spam is fairly short, whereas, the life span of this deity of Lord Siva is significantly longer. Therefore from the perspective of years of life, the Shiv Linga is far older than you. From the perspective of purity if one sees then this body made of flesh and bones is far more impure than this deity made of stone. From the perspective of strength, this stone is far stronger than these bones. If you want to test this, surely you strike your head against this stone and see for yourself which one breaks - your head or the stone deity. You have sinful qualities and bad conduct, whereas this deity is flawless. The point is that the deity (idol) is better and great in all respects. Therefore the deity is worth worshiping. It is venerable. You consider your name's praise and blame as your own praise and blame, your body's honor and dishonor, as your own honor and dishonor, then will God not consider the worship, eulogy and prayer offered to Him in the idol as His own? O' Brother! In fact your name and body which are praised and honored are not your own self, yet you become pleased by praise and honor. But God pervades the entire universe including the idols. Therefore He is present also in the deities as it too is a form of God. Will God not be pleased while we worship Him in the idol? The extent to which we express our sentiments of worship for Him, God will be that much more pleased with us.

Question: Why should we do murti puja (worship idols)? What is the need of Murti Puja (idolatry? (continued)

Answer: (continued) He who is a believer in God, even though he may restrain himself from worship of idols, but regardless, worship of idols takes place through him. Now how is that? He believes and follows the ordinances of the Vedas, then that too is worship of idols as Vedas too (being written book) are idols only. Revering the Vedas is a form of idol worship only. Similarly reverence and service to the preceptor (guru), to parents and guest etc., to serve them with food, water, clothing etc is a form of idol worship. Their bodies are insentient but by revering their bodies, they too are being revered, by which they are pleased. The point is that man wherever, whoever, in which ever form he respects and reveres, it is all worship of idols. If man worships the idol with deep sentiments, then that worship is God's worship only.

There was a recluse who lived under an umbrella and worshiped an idol of Lord Visnu made of black stone (Shaligram). Some people who did not believe in idol worship, they did not like this Babaji's form of worship. They complained about him to Mr. Hook an English Officer, hat he was insulting the all-pervading God by worshiping this black stone idol. Mr. Hook angrily ordered the recluse to leave that place for good. The next day the recluse made a statue of Mr. Hook and began to beat it with his shoe by demonstrating in front of the people and calling the statue of Mr. Hook an idiot. This incident was brought to the attention of Mr. Hook. He again called the recluse and asked him why he was insulting him in that way. The recluse replied that he did not insult him at all but he was insulting this foolish statue of his. After saying this he kicked the statue with his shoes. Mr. Hook said that insulting my statue, is insulting me only. The recluse said, that you are not in this statue (i.e. idol) at all, then too even simply for name sake you are so very much affected. Our God is in all space, time, things, etc; Thus he who with faith worships God in an idol, then is this revering God or not? Hearing his reasoning, Mr. Hook said to the recluse, that he could go to his place and worship the idol free as he wished.

Question - Some people eat or drink forbidden things such as meat or beer etc. in the temple premises or nearby. Why does God not prevent them from doing so?

Answer Children play mischievous games in front of their parents; but parents don't punish them because they think that children are our very own, out of ignorance and innocent they are not aware. Similarly God also thinks that they are my very own ignorant children. Therefore God's sight does not go towards our behavior at all. But those who eat or drink forbidden food and perform forbidden actions in the temple premises, they will have to suffer for their misdeeds.

Question Previously, Kabirji and a few other saints criticized idolatory, Why?

Answer - Saints and great souls manifest and reveal themselves according to the need of the hour and perform actions accordingly. When many fights broke out between the followers of the Siva and those following Vishnu, at that time Tulsidasji Maharaj composed the Ramcharitmanasa, by which the fights between the two came to an end. Many have written different commentaries on the Gita. As according to the need of the hour, the great souls received that particular inspiration in their hearts, and accordingly the commentaries were written. When the Baudha religion (Buddhism) was spreading by leaps and bounds, at that time Sankaracharya revealed Himself and propagated Sanatana Dharma. Similarly when the Muslims ruled over India and the temples as well as, idols were destroyed by them the saints such as Kabirji and other saints declared, "We need neither temples, nor idolatry because our God does not reside only in temples and idols but He pervades everywhere." In fact the intent of these saints was not to criticize idolatry but they meant to direct the people towards God.

Question Nowadays the times are not as they were before, the Muslims are not destroying the temples and idols. Then too why do the followers of a certain sect criticize idolatry and worship of God endowed with form?

Answer - To criticize any one is to have insistence on your own sect and ways; because those who criticize other sects (their beliefs and opinions), do not want to realize the essence of the Supreme Consciousness (Paramatmatattva), they do not want their own salvation, rather they want their individual form of worship, they want to expand their sect's numbers, they want to propagate their sect and organization. Believers in such sects and groups will not realize God. Those who have insistence of their own sect, organizations and groups, they are of certain system of opinions, doctrines, religious, philosophical persuasions and such people's talks are not worth believing and accepting -

People who have insistence on their own sect, belief systems and opinions, cannot know the Essence (tattva). (Manas 1/115/4)

Those who believe in the attributeless, formless God, criticize the worship of deities, then as such they are belittling their All Pervading One, because from their beliefs and opinions, that formless God does not pervade at the places where there are idols. In other words, their formless God is in certain space only (not everywhere). If they accepted the formless God even in the idol, then why would they criticize the one endowed with form? Secondly, those who worship the formless, believe that God is neither endowed with form, nor does he incarnate (as an avatar); it means that their Omnipotent, Almighty God, is incapable to (incarnate) and to be endowed with form, in other words, that Paramatma is not Almighty. But in fact Paramatma is not so. "He is being (manifested) and non-being (unmanifested) (Gita 9/19). So instead of getting entangled about His form etc., we should worship Him according to our own belief.

We must think that do we want our salvation, or do we want to engage in controversies and arguments about formless-with form etc.? If according to our interest and inclination, if we utilize our time in worship of either God endowed with form or The Formless then it will lead to spiritual progress.

"Tere bhaave jo karo bhalo burou sansaar |

"Narayan" tu baithike aapnou bhuvan buhaar ||

But if we insist on fighting then there are many mundane affairs in this world pertaining to wealth and property etc., which people can fight over. But after pursuing the spiritual path, why must we induce fights? Why should we unnecessarily waste our time and energy in condemning and criticizing the ways of worship of other sects? Rather, while we are engaged in worship, how did we find the time to criticize other people's faith? The amount of time we wasted in insulting and blaming other sects and their ways of worship, that much time if we followed our own spiritual path with faith, reverence and devotion then we would be greatly benefited.

Those saints that have criticized idolatry, they have (instead of idolatry) laid special emphasis on chanting the name of God, good company, words of spiritual guide, contemplation on God, meditation etc. But the people who have renounced idolatry and at the same time are not promptly engaged in chanting the name of God and meditation etc., they are deprived of both the benefits! Instead of them, those that worship idols are superior because at least they worship God according to their own belief system.

Some believers may argue that they condemn other ways of worship in order to intensify their own way of worship and to develop exclusive devotion for it. The answer is that a devotee can't develop exclusive devotion to his favorite Deity or to his way of worship by condemning others ways, because it is only He who assumes different names and forms. He is attributeless, as well as, endowed with attributes. Therefore the believers of different sects believing in different ways of worship should respect one another because everyone worships the same God. Those that are with faith and belief, with a simple straight-forward sentiments engaged in the worship of their Beloved (Ishtha), by condemning their Beloved, their way of worship, their heart will be hurt, it will feel a blow, whereby they will be pained and will suffer, then those who have condemned them will incur grave sin, whereby their own way of worship will not lead them to perfection.

Condemning others in the name of exclusive devotion is an evil disguised as a virtue. It is easy to escape an evil by considering it an evil, but it is very difficult to escape an evil if it appears as a disguised virtue. Ravana and Kalanemi disguised as Saints could deceive Sita and Hanumana repectively. Similarly Arjuna also recoiled from fighting, that is doing his dharma (i.e. duty) being a member of the warrior class, thinking that he would incur sin by killing his kinsmen. So in Arjuna also he evil of unmanliness appeared as disguised non-violence and virtue. Therefore much effort was required by Lord Krishna in preaching the lengthy gospel of the Gita. If the evil appeared in Arjuna in the form of an evil, then Lord could easily remove it. Similarly if the evil of condemnation appears in us in the form of exclusive devotion, we should not mislead ourselves to ruin by wasting our precious time, capabilities, understanding etc. in condemning others. But an aspirant should want that with great caution and alertness, he must utilize his resources (time, abilities, capabilities etc) in worshipping his favorite Deity.

Those saints that have criticized idolatry, they have (instead of idolatry) laid special emphasis on chanting the name of God, good company, words of spiritual guide, contemplation on God, meditation etc. But the people who have renounced idolatry and at the same time are not promptly engaged in chanting the name of God and meditation etc., they are deprived of both the benefits! Instead of them, those that worship idols are superior because at least they worship God according to their own belief system.

Some believers may argue that they condemn other ways of worship in order to intensify their own way of worship and to develop exclusive devotion for it. The answer is that a devotee can't develop exclusive devotion to his favorite Deity or to his way of worship by condemning others ways, because it is only He who assumes different names and forms. He is attributeless, as well as, endowed with attributes. Therefore the believers of different sects believing in different ways of worship should respect one another because everyone worships the same God. Those that are with faith and belief, with a simple straight-forward sentiments engaged in the worship of their Beloved (Ishtha), by condemning their Beloved, their way of worship, their heart will be hurt, it will feel a blow, whereby they will be pained and will suffer, then those who have condemned them will incur grave sin, whereby their own way of worship will not lead them to perfection.

Condemning others in the name of exclusive devotion is an evil disguised as a virtue. It is easy to escape an evil by considering it an evil, but it is very difficult to escape an evil if it appears as a disguised virtue. Ravana and Kalanemi disguised as Saints could deceive Sita and Hanumana repectively. Similarly Arjuna also recoiled from fighting, that is doing his dharma (i.e. duty) being a member of the warrior class, thinking that he would incur sin by killing his kinsmen. So in Arjuna also he evil of unmanliness appeared as disguised non-violence and virtue. Therefore much effort was required by Lord Krishna in preaching the lengthy gospel of the Gita. If the evil appeared in Arjuna in the form of an evil, then Lord could easily remove it. Similarly if the evil of condemnation appears in us in the form of exclusive devotion, we should not mislead ourselves to ruin by wasting our precious time, capabilities, understanding etc. in condemning others. But an aspirant should want that with great caution and alertness, he must utilize his resources (time, abilities, capabilities etc) in worshipping his favorite Deity.

Question: How is "Svayambhu" (Self-Existent) idol sculptured?

Answer This question can arise only if "Svayambhu" (self-existent) idol is sculpted. They are not sculpted at all. They simply manifest (Reveals themselves), therefore it is called self-existent; or else why would it be "Svayambhu"?

Question How to know whether an "murti" idol is self-existent "Svayambhu" or sculptured?

Answer Every person cannot know it (i.e. recognize a self-existent idol). As a person recognizes an old acquaintance, so does a devotee who has vision of God recognize a self-existent idol.

Question What is the difference if a person worships a sculpted "murti" idol or a self-existent "Svayambhu" idol?

Answer - If a devotee has belief and faith, then worshiping the sages in an emblem of sacrificial grass or Lord Ganesa through betel-nut proves beneficial. Similarly if a devotee beholds and worships the sculptured idol, it leads him to spiritual progress. But worshiping a self-existent idol and having belief and faith leads to special and quick spiritual progress. Just like on listening to the discourse of a saint in person is far more beneficial than reading his discourse from a book, so is worship of a self-existent idol more beneficial. Sanjaya also declares the same about the gospel of the Gita that he has heard the supreme and most profound gospel direct from Lord Krishna (Gita 18/75).

Question What is the reason that a person is easily and suddenly attached to the world but he is not easily attached to God?

Answer - The reason is that a person regards himself as body. By identifying himself with the body, he is easily attached to the world because the body has its identity with the world. Homogeneous entities are suddenly attached to each other as people of the same social order and same profession etc., are easily connected. Just as those who consider themselves to be Brahmin, Kshatriya , become connected with Brahmin, Kshatriya, and those who consider themselves to be wise, traders, etc, they easily establish relation with others that are wise, traders etc., - "Samaansheel-vyasaneshu sakhyam" A man does not directly have vision of God and he considers himself to be an idol (body), then for such a one, to have the sentiments of the presence of God in the "murti" idol will be easy. IN other words, as long as there is a sense of Me and mine-ness, till then one should worship idol of God. Even after God-Realization he should not renounce worshiping the idol, because the spiritual discipline that was beneficial to him, he must remain ever grateful to it, it must not be renounced.

From book in Hindi "Gita Darpan" by Swami Ramsukhdasji

The message is available in HINDI titled "GITA MEIN MURTI PUJA" in July 2010 Folder at: http://www.satcharcha.blogspot.com/

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[gita-talk] Re: Need Advice for One Who is Lonely

2012-01-23T19:27:00.000-08:00

Hare Krshna
Dear Sadhaks,
I Am a single lonely man and depressed. I want to devote my rest of the life for Lord Sri Krishna in Iskcon. I want to be a part of Iskcon and want to stay there. But as my age is 40+, so I am not eligible to stay there for rest of my life.
Kindly advice what is the solution as per Our great religion
-Warm Regards

AR
-----------------------------------------------
Dear AR, Namaste!
With lot of respect, I may point to you the following.
These are not theoretical answers, each have points to help you. Leave all such worries at once, please!
Our great relogion says Trust the Life(GOD) that will take care of you in the best possible ways for you. We want our own ways from Liffe, not possible because we have to live with others and they also have requiremnents from us! Complete surrender works miracles, trust me on this. We think we take care of our lives, but do we?
When our partners help us it is only God helps us through the partner!!!

What is the guarantee that if you marry and the partner may not be able to take care of you?
You are thinking about who will take care of you, what about if God wants something else, like you have to take care of someone, etc etc.
Bhagwat Gita tells us to follow your Dharma and your Karmas will be taken care by God. Of sourse you need to be sincere to find out what this God is and then Trust!
We all can understand marriage is the way God intends for most of us to carry forward His Divine plan!
So do pursue it but to love and live in harmony within the laws following Dharma, not necessarily for someone to take care of you!
Hope this helps!
Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------------
ab aapane apanee baat kahee hai -
I think these are all theoretical views. If I get ill or some physical problems happen, then who will look after me?
only you will look after you by engaging someone (for money or for mere unconditional LOVE). Remember nobody gets anything from others for which that body hasn't given. In Nature the law is "Get what is given."
This remembers me a line from a song,"tum besahaara ho to kiseekaa sahaaraa bano ..."
Hint is sufficient for the wise.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

---------------------------------------------------
Hare Krsna,

Dear AR,

You said you want to devote your life to Lord Krsna and when everyone gave you advise on that, you dismissed all of their wonderful advise to finally admit the truth--you are alone and are afraid that if you get sick who will take care of you! And to make it worse--you want answers from "our great religion?".

1. Why is a 40+ man living alone?
2. Is the depression as a result of that or did the depression the cause of you being alone?

I am 40+, fell down and injured my leg and has not been allowed to walk for 6 weeks and still have more weeks to go. Cannot do anything for myself. My Patidev walked out on his helpless wife. I am not alone though, I have my sister who does everything and Mother and Brother.This is what family are about--you take care and help each other. Am I the only person who this happened to? No--this
very good Hindu lady broke both her legs and was in a wheelchair for 3 months. Her husband instead of taking care of her, went to be with another lady. The injured lady's brother came and took care of her.

Throughout my injury, I have not been alone. There are people--strangers ready to carry me when I need help, calling/visiting me all the time--there is no time to be depressed either. When you have The Lord in your heart and soul, there is no room for loneliness.

Instead of feeling sorry for yourself, go and find all those people that you drove away from your life. Whose fault did they leave--no one will leave the side of a good human being.Then start to cultivate love for The Lord and all His Creation. You can go and live in all the Mandirs of The Lord but if you do not realise that He is right there in your heart--your journey will be useless.Allow the Lord to be your Master and see how fast you will be surrounded by Love and loving ones...the devotees of The Blessed Lord never turn their backs on anyone who truly loves Him...

Haribol.
NS
----------------------------------------------

Dear AR
You want to join Iskon because you love Krishna or because you want to be cared for in case of infirmity. they are completely different motives, and should be treated differently. so first be clear why you want to join iskcon or anything else. Lonliness is a state of mind and you can be lonely in a crowd too. You have to treat the cause and not the symptom.

sm

------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Religion only can answer your questions as to 'looking after' of you. Practical answer is either do karma at that point of time (when you get ill or develop any physical problem) to the best of your ability and if no solution comes forward then or even otherwise surrender yourself to the invisible hands of Paramatma..lock stock and barrel. You should have firm belief that one (Paramatma) who has given birth to you , one who arranged your sustenance till date, one who arranged for milk in your mom's person even before you were born, one who took care of you when you were not strong enough to even remove a fly from your face, one who took care of you till date..will take care of you upto the full tenure of your pre-determined human life. You have to have that firm belief in Him and surrender to Paramatma.

What you thereafter (after surrender) must ensure is NOT TO WORRY at all. You have to be Nischint (Worryless); Nirbhay (Fearless); Nisshank (Doubtless) and Nisshok (Griefless). These are 4 important yardsticks of surrender to Him. If you worry then where have you surrendered? If you have surrendered then where is scope for worry? If you can maintain these 4 things in you and then surrender ...let me tell you, your life INSTANTLY will become divine and saintly. Try it ..! Keep doing 'Naam Jap' ..you are lonely..great opportunity..Keep doing Naam Jap.

GIRAH GAANTH BANDHE NAHIN, JAB DEVE TAB KHAAY ! NARAIN PEECHHE PHIRE MAT BHOOKO RAH JAAY !!

One who does not hoard anything and eats whenever received... Behind such person Paramatma runs, worrying that he should not go hungry.

If you just do Naam Japa and do nothing else, very shortly, you will have enough provisions to sustain you. Rather you will have more to feed others too. But you must have trust and faith in Him.

DAADOO DUNIYA BAAWARI PHIKKAR KARE GELLI ! ROTI DESI RAAMJI DOPAARA PELLI !! Said Saint Dadoo: Berserk has gone this world worrying about bread and butter.. Little aware that they will get meals before noon.

MUYE KO HARI DET HAI, LAKDI KAPADA AAG ! JEEVATA NAR CHINTA KARE WAKO BARO ABHAAG !! To a dead person also, God gives wood, cloth and fire ! Now if living person worries about maintenance, he can only be termed as abhaaga (stupid, unfortunately unaware/ignorant) !

Sir..you are AMRITASYA PUTRA- Son of the King of all Kings, Emperor of all Emperors..Parampita Parameshwar !! Dear Dear Son ! He sent you on this earth without your permission , He will lift you from here without your permission, He cared for you till date.. Now also it is His job to take care of you in future..WHY DO YOU WORRY unnecessarily ? MA SUCHAH...MA SUCHAH !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------
Spirituality is about understanding the overall bigger picture,.......the process of life....

It is us who have to take care of body to whatever extent possible....
but with this experiential realization that "I am not this body" and "Nothing happens to me when the body is sick or when other events happen in life".....

Thinking and living this way helps us to start operating from higher consciousness levels where there is more joy, happiness and bliss......focus is on being who we are..... one has to practice all this to discover the power of happy thoughts....power of deeper understanding of self....
Sushil Jain

-------------------------------------------------

Dear AR,
Namaskar!

You seem not to be serious with your main problem! Otherwise, all have tried their level best to convince you that problem of loneliness, depression, devotion to Kishna....and the like are the creation of your own weak mind. Number of suggestions have been given to you, for adoption of a child for example. Which now, at your age of 40+ is the best! By the time you would be 60-70, the fortunate child would turn into full youth of sustaining you as well as himself!!

I fail to understand as to why you call such noble suggestions as theoretical only. Your recent specific problem of who would look after you if you have a physical problem sometime, is a very childish question. In such case you can hire a servant, can join some old age home, maintain good relations with neighbors, friends and relatives etc., who could help you when in need at the time of having physical trouble! But then the real suffering to your body nobody can pick up upon himself. You have bear ALL by yourself!

Finally, I suggest you to be positive & firm and ask questions for real learning or teaching & benefiting others!

Jai Shri-krishna

(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

------------------------------------------------------

Hare Krishna

Dear Sadhaks

I think these are all theoretical views. If I get ill or some physical problems happen, then who will look after me? That's the biggest question for my life? If our great religion can answer to this question, then I will be much more relieved

Thanks

AR

--------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Being alone is the fate of each human. A human comes alone and goes alone. It is a law that whatever is at beginning and end is also in the middle. Hence spiritually each human is alone while living ! All around you are OTHERS, as a law, necessarily. This fact is confirmed by presence of FEAR in each of the human being (except devotees of God). It is a fact that each one of us has some FEAR always in us. It is a law that FEAR generates from strangers and never from 'our own'. We fear because we are surrounded by strangers consistently. This world is not our home, we are in a stranger alien place, we are not at our home. Hence fear !

Then? Turn towards God directly. There are no licensing agents or pimps of God on this planet through whom you must pass through. Absolutely not a single. There is no provision made in the Scriptures for any agents. No licenses are issued from God's secretariate to act as mediums between Him and His own children viz human beings. Do not believe any one.. I repeat any one. Believe in yourSELF and in the God who is sitting inside you. Do not search Him outside. There is no need by you of any other to turn towards Krishna, What kind of outside help is needed for a child to rush towards his mother? Read quality books, recite bhajans, read Gita, hear pravachans of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, read books published by Gita Press, Gorakhpur etc. Look at the world, life, SELF dispassionately. Help others if you can, selflessly. Renounce the desire of getting a company. Be satisfied by yourSELF !

Actually you are lucky that you are alone. One of the yardsticks of a jnani bhakta as per Gita is : ARATIH JAN SANSIDI (13:8) (Remaining aloof from others) ! Do not form new attachments and do not look at the world with an object to get something out of it. No outer organisation can get you peace. Peace is lying within you and comes instantly upon your renouncing the worldly attachments/desires. Do not worry about your maintenance. Work if you can. Else have firm belief that you will not get starved. DO NOT WORRY. NEVER WORRY ! One who has given birth to you will take care of you. Do not like/dislike anyone/anything. View the world with equanimity and become BLISSFUL.

JAAHI VIDHI RAKHE RAAM TAAHI VIDHI RAHIYE ! SITARAAM SITARAAM SITARAAM KAHIYE !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
-----------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhak

There is nothing like feeling lonely or depressed, but it is just running out of turn. Keep your mind stable, with positive thoughts and try to do the things in a right way you think is the best in life and God Promise you'l never feel Lonely or Depressed.

Enjoy your life by being positive & helping others self-lessly and Joy will follow your foot-steps.

Thanks & Regards
Arvind Goel
--------------------------------------------------
The infant lord Krishna was in great distress.Baba Nandji and Mayya Yashoda brough Him up better than anyone else could have done.The best way to devoute the rest of your life,I am sure,will be to heed my advice already herein.
subhashtewari

------------------------------------------------------
-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Maybe you see the joyous behaviour of the devotees in ISKCON, as a form
of salvation from your sombre/melancholy state of being. Here at
Gita-talk no one is concerned re your age, all Sadhaks are welcome, in
fact all are treated with courtesy, what has age got to do with it.

I first read your article this morning (my time) and my mind kept going
back to your sad post, I then remembered a wonderful song, it is an
allegory on the ever present Divine, ' A Hundred Thousand Angels by your
side', a good version has the comment 'for angels and stargazers, have a
listen it tells a truth.

On the way back home on the bus there sat opposite me in a wheel chair a fellow of about 14 years old, he was very incapacitated spastic
movements eyes rolling in all directions never resting, I saw him peak
shyly at me, I looked him in the eyes with a gentle smile on my face,
'Soul met soul', for a few seconds he was still, imagine such a world
where we would all look and listen, where soul meets soul.

Your Soul wants to meet soul, maybe in a tranquil way, your joy may well follow, you see your restlessness has guided you to this forum, your loneliness is an illusion you are NEVER alone!

Om ... Shant ...

Mike.

------------------------------------------------
Just adding a little more to the valuable response from Sadhaks..

Who feels lonely? Who feels bored? Contemplation on this can lead to the answer. There is no one inside our body who is feeling lonely or bored..... In fact, mind does not know what to do when lonely....it does not have any thoughts..... So, it is a good for the mind to reach a no thought state which is otherwise reached through meditation, jap and tap... Just a little understanding of wisdom can reverse the situation from depression to gratitude, happiness, enlightenment....

It is our mind who makes up this stories. It looses its power when lonely or bored and gets depressed in the process..... Understanding the wisdom is the key out of this situation. Loneliness, boredom, depression, etc. are just thoughts....thoughts could be changed/cancelled by giving new wisdom thoughts to the mind....

Sushil Jain
---------------------------------------------------

This is Tamohara dasa vanaprastha, acbssp, MSc. Greetings! There is no age restriction nor requirement for taking up life as a bhakta sadhaka. You have somehow been mislead by bogus persons. There is ample service for you, but you must contact other bonafide devotees.

Loneliness is part and parcel of material existence. When you realize it is ultimately a loneliness for your spiritual relationship with Godhead, then a new beginning of happiness commences. But of course we also need good association of other devotees, so attend the Temple, hear classes, and get in where you fit in. Eventually, if you sincerely seek full-time renounced life as a sadhaka, you will be shown good opportunities by Sri Krsna. But there will bo so many
obstacles, as devotional life amongst the world entails a liftetime of voluntary sacrifices, taking up hardships for Krsna's sake, it is not all lotus flowers and maha-prasadam.

Respects and well-wishes, please chant Hare Krsna regularly and pray to Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Prabhu Nityananda, They will assist you in so many ways.

Dasa

---------------------------------------------
must start writing daily diary
phone a relative daily
learn and share a joke daily
plan and write your next day schedule
go to a satsang on mondays thursdays and sundays
visit nearby temple daily
read bhagwat daily
write to someone different daily and choose person one day before
learn a bhazan every third day
visit your.spiritual teacher once a week

Oncoss
---------------------------------------------

Hare Krsna,

You can visit and stay in any of our centers in India:
Search for purebhakti and contact the centers.
Sincerely,
Vasanti dasi
--
"It is true that we are not seeing Krsna, but He sees us, and He may hear what we say to Him. We do not hear what He is telling us, and we do not hear His calling us by playing His flute, but our call is heard by Krsna who is very kind and causelessly merciful. He has sent all our guru-parampara acaryas, He has also sent Jesus, and sometimes He Himself descends with all His associates only because He loves us."
Srila Gurudeva
Vasanti dasi

---------------------------------------------

Thanks! Very relevant and timely.

Hiranmay Karlekar
---------------------------------------------
Dear AR,
I hear you saying that life seems empty, and that you don't see any hope, or happiness ahead. You would like to look forward to the future, to things that would make you happy.

What some of the other sadhaks say is true. Loneliness is a state of mind. Some people are lonely in crowds too.
I would like you to look at what are the thoughts in your mind that make you feel lonely. What are you saying to yourself? Are you saying 'I am hopeless because I'm single?' Or 'nobody loves me?'
Out thoughts create our feelings. So yes, meditate, become aware of your thoughts, and change them.

Then, give thanks for the things you Do have. A healthy body, your mind, your talents... and more.

Then think about what made you happy and fulfilled before, and when you were a child. Make an attempt to do those things.

Join a group that does those things (on the net, outside.) Like one sadhak says, there are several people out there as lonely as you, who are looking to meet other people who do similar things. They need you as much as you need them. So go find them.

I see you want to bring peace to your soul. Yes, joining ISKCON or going to the Himalayas may help. but have you thought that maybe bringing joy to people in an old age home, may bring you satisfaction?

You are a valuable human being, remember that. And the gifts you are blessed with will bring peace to you and people.

I don't know how depressed you feel, but it would help if you met a counsellor once. That could be the starting point to joy.
Wish you all the best,
J
----------------------------------------------
Dear single depressed person,
Namaskar!
You say that you want to devote your rest of the life for Lord Sri Krishna in Iskcon. I am not aware what Iskon is, but still I can suggest you how to reduce your depression somewhat! Just read carefully following write up and then act as you like after deep analysis:

You want to devote rest of life for Lord Krishna. Are you exactly aware what you really want to do? What Lord Krishna means to you? What you mean by devotion? Or, finally I ask you what you want to do specifically for Lord Krishna when one comes before you? I am sure, for none of these questions, you have pin-pointed and correct answer!!

Coming to your loneliness, it is your own mind's set up, thinking you are lonely. Easiest way to get rid of this wrong thinking that you are lonely, IS TO BECOME COMPANION OF SOMEBODY AND HELP HIM UNCONDITIONALLY ! May it be a beggar on the road side. SEE AND FIND YOUR IMAGINED LORD KRISHNA IN HIM TOTALLY. Your all the problems of loneliness, depression, devotion to Lord Krishna, problem of not able to go to Iskon.....etc., etc., would vanish in thin air! While writing this I recall the song of Ashirwad movie in which Ashok Kumar acts:

TUM BE-SAHARA HO TO, KISEEKA KA SAHARA BANOO....
EK AKELA MAT SAMJOO, PER BUS TUM CHAL NIKLOO, RASTE MEIN KOYEE SATHEE TUMHARA MIL-JAYEGA!

KISHTE KOYEE DOOBTI PUHCHAVO KINARE SE, TUM KO APNE-AAP HE KINARA MIL-JAYEGA

DOOND RAHE TUM JISKOO USKO BAHIR MAT DOONDOO, MAN KE ENDER DONDOO, PRTAM PYARA MIL-JAYEGA

TUM BE-SAHARA HO TO, KISEEKA KA SAHARA BANOO....

Hope this simple and easy exercise of becoming helpful to others would solve your all the problems including false loneliness and thereby also false depression!!!

Any of your further query would be answered promptly!

May god less you and ALL!

Ohm Shanti,

I am,

Kuldeep Kumar Kaul
---------------------------------------------------
Adopt a child and bring him up like the best you would have liked it yourself.
subhashtewari

---------------------------------------------------
Whether you go to Iskcon or tothe Himalayas, you mind will remain always with you, and that mind itself is disease, the complaint. Make your mind filled with KRISHNA, there will be no need to go anywhere.
This realization has come from swamiji Himself.

HINDI
Chaahe ISCON jaaiye, chaahe HIMAALAYA jaaiye aapakaa man sadaa saath rahegaa aur man hee vyaadhi hai. Man ko Krishnamaya kar leejiye, kaheen jaane kee jaroorat naheen rahegee.
Swameejee se yahee anubhava liyaa hai.
astu.
Savinaya,
saadhaka.

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear AR,
You are NOT lonely. Reconfirm this.
B.S
----------------------------------------------------------

i would also like to know how to be a part of ISKON but i can not leave my home ,as my husband is almost bed ridden but i do want to do something for my next life .jai shree krishna

CN
----------------------------------------------------------

Loneliness mid-life crisis Freedom in Living ...

Feeling lonely is a natural, it is called mid-life crisis :). When you were a child, all attention was on you. Your parents made you the center of universe in their doting affection. When you were adolescent, all your attention was on your life partner. The whole universe did not matter as you were lost in the love for each other. When you were young, you felt empowered as if the world was under your rule. The children looked at you in awe and were so eager to emulate what you were. You were oozing with energy and enthusiasm. Your spouse wooed your command. So far your body was serving your ambitions being filled with energy and strength. It was acting as if you are its SOLE LORD!

You turn 40 a miracle happens to bewilder you and rattle your very faith in living! The same spouse who wooed you might be scorning at you weighed down by his/her own baggage of life. You do not sound his/her queen/king anymore! The same children exposed to the rest of the world have identified themselves around other epicenters of the world. You are no more the ideal for them!! Your own body that acted as if it was under your total command starts giving hints of its own degeneration, particularly against your wish. The young, vibrant and adorable body is turning old, passive and pathetic. The same body seem to care its own path of decay rather than serving your ever-growing wishes anymore!!! In spite of all your effort to deny the reality, the reality of living marches ahead stampeding on all your aspirations. LONELINESS IS BUT NATURAL THEN :):):):):).

Yaavadvittopaarjanasaktah taavannijaparivaaroraktah |

Pashchaajjeevati jarjhara dehe vaartaa ko'pi na pricchhati gehe ||

... I can recite the whole Bhaja Govindam here.

My dear friend you are NOT ALONE in your loneliness! Being single seem to add to the loneliness when you feel lonely while being single. You would feel the same wrath (or probably more!) being with other people as well. Really speaking, nobody is left alone in this world. You are no exception. You are surrounded by people as well. Then why do you feel lonely?! The reason - THE LONE REASON - for loneliness is the lack of a mirror for your aspirations. The people around seem to be indifferent to your agenda in life ... they lapse to reflect your interests in them. One feels lonely when one does not see his/her own image in others ... when one fails to see respect for one's own wishes around ... when one continues to insist on one's own wishes over others in spite of being rejected again and again ...

This has happened because marriage never occurred to us. We never married in life. We chose to remain single. We never let ourselves be one with the life we are graced with. We kept the whole life under ransom as if it were in our command! We never developed appreciation toward everything that was offered in this marriage - the life that happily partook our existence. We never appreciated the body we are blessed as it is. We never appreciated our parents as they are. We never appreciated our spouses as they are. We never tried to understand our children as they are. Without anyone's permission we built a cage of images for all our relations based on our own wishful assumptions. The cage became so binding that we failed to acknowledge the situational reality around as well as within! We chose to freeze ourselves in these images and completely lost in touch with the ever-dynamic reality around and within!! My dear friend, you chose the cage and you insist to be within the same!!! Just try once ... just get out of the cage and take a fresh breath outside ... feel the freedom within ... feel your ever-lasting fusion with the world around ... feel your universal presence irrespective all the images that hound you from within ... who isolated you from your true self which IS ALL??? Think ... Recall ... Krato Smara ... Kritam Smara ...

How can you be alone when you are eternally connected to everything else in this universe?

How can you be lonely when you ARE ALL and everything is verily you as such??

When there is nothing but THAT how can there be any notion such as loneliness???

Trust me! Either way, you can't be lonely even if you try hard!! Loneliness is a notion generated by ignorance. The same individual pride or ego or identity that was created by this ignorance which you embraced with awe has turned into this depression of loneliness. Therefore, question the identities you admired, amassed and adored to their core with absolutely no passion. Break open the shackles of those identities encore. Loneliness has no place where FREEDOM alone remains. When FREEDOM alone remains the lonely entity OUGHT TO become THE FREEDOM as such ... THAT IS THE LAW! THAT IS THE ONLY LAW ... EVERYTHING IS THAT AS SUCH ...

Yada sarve prabhidyante hridayasyeha granthayah |

Atha martyo'mrito bhavati etaavadhyanushaasanam ||

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

A guest came to a lonely sadhak's home and stated: You were alone and now I have come to give you company. Sadhak replied: I was not alone. I was with my God.
Now that you have come, I have become lonely. My God vanished as soon as you entered.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------

Dear AR namaste!
One has to study religion to see how great it is! If you study it first, chances are you wouldn't be depressed!
One feels lonely because one thinks too much about oneself only isolating oneself from family, friends, society, scriptures by always thinking "what is in it for me?"
It is important to get out of depression first. Take the help of psycho therapy/medicine if chemically imbalanced!

Another surest way is to do self-less work, such as volunteering, getting involved with people!
Live a God-centered life, asking His help as often as you can to free you from loneliness! Trust Krishna to do it so!
Why depend on ISKON organization? You can do it right now!

It sounds like you are running away from situations of being lonely and that is why you are depressed!
Don't run away from situations of loneliness by going to places like ISCON, etc. Of course these may be great organizations!
Face them with courage! Situations are temporary, they come and go!
Once you are out of depression, then everything will fall in place!
Krishna will guide you to places if you need!
Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------
Dear Divine Sadhak,

An excellent opportunity for you to perform intense sadhna........loneliness, depression all are just feelings , look into it. You may find that you just are not enjoying your own company, that is why "feeling" lonely and depressed.

So to be with your self is the solution. Please start doing following things and you will soon be able to enjoy every moment of life-

1. Meditate, meditate and meditate: research on internet, try some meditations or get initiation into higher mediatation techniques.

2.Read Bhagwat Gitaji again and again. It is the book of life solutions. You will find yours.

3.Share your understanding with this group. This gita-talk group is a group of people who are living according to Krishna's teachings, they have deep insights ..........

4.Watch your breath, this is a 24 hr work, which will keep you out of negative emotions and will bring a new understanding, a new joy in you............

Do all of the above at least 21 days and share your experience with us.........
May all good and auspicious things manifest in your life.........
with love and regards,
Sadhna

===============================================

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[gita-talk] Re: Need Advice on Marriage for One Who is Divorced

2012-01-21T19:33:00.000-08:00

Hare Krshna
Dear Sadhaks,
I Am a divorced man and finding many hurdles in getting married inspite of everything being well.
Kindly advice what is the solution as per Our great religion
-Warm Regards
HS

-----------------------------------------------

Hare Krsna,

Dear HS,

Does being divorced make you "free" to marry again? Did you marry according to Vedic/Hindu marriage ceremony? Do you know that the word divorce is nowhere in Vedic scriptures and there is no Sanskrit/Hindi equivalent to it?

My husband was abusive to me from our wedding night and the abuse continued until I had to leave because of illness. Life in his house made me so sick and he sent me away telling my Mother to take care of me and when I was well I should return. My Mother refused to allow me to go back with the fear that I will die. My husband ignored me for years and only came when we had a death in our home. He came for the funeral and for the time he spent he did not offer one word of comfort to any of us. All he was concerned with was that I did not introduce him properly to the people who came. Being in grief I needed emotional
and even physical support and got zero. In grief, life was empty for me and I lost hope in everything.

The man that I was married to asked to come visit after 7 years and while I was reluctant at first I allowed him to do so. While here, we both agreed to give the marriage one last chance. He left came back again and all was well. Then he left and suddenly became the angry cruel person again.It scared me again,as it brought back memories that I hoped to never see again. Then he came to visit and on the second day of his stay, I fell down and broke my ankle. We went to the
hospital, and my foot was put into a cast. I was unable to walk, he brought me home,then calmly told me he is leaving in the morning.I begged him to stay and he refused to listen. He left the next day and 2 ladies were left alone to fend for themselves. My sister had to help me to the washroom and do everything for me. I had surgery a few days later and since 6 weeks have not been allowed to walk still.

My husband calls himself a spiritual man and has several hindu groups where he loves to preach on everything. He is highly educated and yet this very man walked away and left his helpless wife. Why am I writing all of this? You say that you are divorced? Why did that happen? Which lady would walk away from a good man, muchless a good Dharmic man? The men here have excelled in their explanations about marriage especially Vyas Ji. Did you read what he said?

Hindu marriages are made a mockery today especially by people like the man who was married to me. He claimed how he wanted a religious wife and when he got one, he abused me because I was too religious and lived a satvika life.

Nothing will ever be well in the life of people who abuse their spouses. Rather than feel sorry for yourself, go to your wife and seek her forgiveness.Did she divorce you--seek her forgiveness for forcing her to make her take such a step.
If you did the divorcing---God help your soul....

Hare Krsna,
NS

-------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

Skipping of marriage by a human is highly beneficial to him spiritually particularly when considered with the fact that the only object of human life is liberation ! The pleasures and pains of procreation, family, association, mating etc are in abundance available in other life forms also and with much more freedom. In human life, marriage, children , family, home ..these are sources of huge bondage, attachments, duties and obstacles as compared with other options. Just one marriage, one association with one spouse, increases your association with the world in geometric proportions. You get attached/associated with Father in law, mother in law, bother in law...and so on. If your spouse has 100 relatives, you get equivalent number added to your list of relatives..just by one relationship with spouse. You also have a chance of very sticky relationship with Kamini (wife) ...it is very difficult to conquer this 'rasa-buddhi' in opposite sex particularly Kamini (female) ! But your chances of getting hugely bound to Kamini may be less , if you don't marry and do not taste the forbidden fruits at all. Then a lot more scope of sinning arises when you take responsibilities in a family ie when you choose Grahustha life (householders life) ! Bachelors/Brahmacharis/Sadhus do not have many responsibilities which a householder has...and they , thus, clearly have lesser bondage.

One of the greatest sages of Sanatan Dharma, and one of the greatest devotee of Paramatma, Maharishi Naarad, became very happy when he lost his mother at very young age. He became happy thinking responsibility got over and now I can devote more time to BhaktI of Bhagwaan !!! Sanatan Dharma scriptures are full of praise for those Sages who remained Brahmachaari (unmarried) and who practiced celibacy ! 'Brahmacharya' is highly recommended and desirable trait for every sadhak and yogi of Gita.

Hence , if circumstances become such that you must remain unmarried, it is special Grace of God upon you and you should , actually, become very happy upon receipt of such Grace. The life of a householder, undoubtedly, is very hard austerity as compared with other ashrams !!!

Hence be cheerful and blissful ! JAAHI VIDHI RAKHE RAAM TAHI VIDHI RAHIYE ! SITARAAM SITARAAM SITARAAM KAHIYE !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna.

my guruji say that divorce is just a paper or law given by government and the
most important part of marriage is the vows taken at shaadi.my guruji says even though my husband divorce me to marry someone else i am still married to my husband as per hindu marriage ceremony.guruji says there is no word of divorcee in hindu scriptures and divorce is created by muslims and christian and do not govern hindu marriages.guruji gets angry at the importance place on divorce and
when none is place on vows taken at shaadi. guruji says when man and woman take vows,they must take all measures to keep these vows and when these vows are kept that marriage will be good. divorce he says happen when there are no keeping of vows.

s.a
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donot agree with B.S.ur wife and other dependants are not only ur social but divine responsibility.u have vowed before the holy agni or some other form of divine authority ur committment and u must maintain it despite all odds of life.after all ur parents or sisters many times donot agree with u and are many times hostile.u donot desert them because they are ur own.then why wife,who is ur ordained life companion and a mother of your children very much like u are a son of your parent.Remember,that ur wife holds the status of a mother in the family the very same way,your mother,your grandmother held at their time.you adore them,why then this lady.

SUBHASH CHANDER TEWARI

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Hare Krshna
Thank You all for the inputs,it was certainly very enlightening,while I have come to understand that divorce is not an option and or a solution however this did occur,yes it "occured" for reasons beyond control and comprehension,but I will take things from here and I Am indeed very thankful again to all and very happy to be a part of this group where one can share and is guided through the all supreme scriptures and knowledge of Our Glorious religion
HS

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Dear HS,
Become like Adi Sankara. You are lucky. Dont marry and suffer again. Few men and woman while they were unmarried they devoted their life to Bagavan and reached most blissful state. Whereas you want to go back Asti.
B.S

--------------------------------------------------
It shall be best if both of you can reconcile and look for companionship without any complaint about the past.IT will not be anything short of a second marriage.
subhashtewari

-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

What does 'marital relationship' signify spiritually? Gita says: Karmanu bandhini manushya loke' ( Humanity is bound by karmas ie by prior contractal obligations). Certain relations in human life are clearly based on carried forward obligations. Like we never selected our parents , we got them based on prior life karmas. Similarly, however intelligent or knowldgeable a person may claim, the fact is that you get spouse also based on prior life karmas ! There may be prior meetings, decision making process, deliberations, advices sought before marriage from both sides, even an intense liking for each other (called 'love' in modern language) ...but nothing is as serious as is the bondage created for each other in marriage. 'Marriage' is a huge bondage. That is why, the marriage is not compulsory in Sanatan Dharma, it is optional. Your emancipation (goal of human life) is not dependent upon your getting married.

Once you marry, once you call your wife as 'my' wife'or your husband as 'my' husband ..all the problems of spouse become your problems, instantly. as a law. But it is also a fact that as against wife, the responsibility of husband is much higher. Why? Because wife 'renounces' everything at the time of marriage. She renounces her home, her parents, her gotra, her surname, her friends, her dressing, her everything (which she had before marriage) , her body..what not ! She believes necessarily in husband and comes to husband's home leaving every thing behind. What does not she do? That 'tyaag' at the outset itself, makes her many times qualitatively superior to husband. Precisely therefore, Sanatan Dharma Scriptures clearly detest and forbid divorce or cruelty ! What more 'tyaag' a lady can do to begin with? It then becomes the turn of husband to reciprocate by adjusting his ego, comforts, views, conduct, habits, attitude, perception and make marriage a success. It is responsibility of male and male alone to ensure successful marital life. Divorce means failure to adjust together. Lack of renunciation of ego, stands, views, arrogance...! Whose duty it is, once lady has necessarily left (renounced) everything behind?

Male, in particular, can't complain , when it is his turn to 'renounce' ! Wife begins marital life by renunciation and surrender only. Therefore, however she is, whatever she is ...it is the responsibility of husband to adjust ... Even if she is 100% wrong. That is it ! Scriptures are unanimous that it is a very very big sin to divorce wife.

There was one Saint by the name Koobaji ! His wife fled with other person, but after some time came back . Koobaji arranged for her sustenance though again did not accept her as wife. But he ensured she lived comfortably.

Rightly therefore, Scriptures state: Debt on a child of his/her mother is 100 times more than the debt of father ! Why ?

In India , a husband is often referred as "Pati Parameshwar' ( Husband as good as Paramatma)_ ! Why ? Because

JUST AS: Rahati Na Prabhu Chit Chook Hiye Kee (Paramatma does not look at fault of Jeevas..).However you are, once you surrender, once you renounce yourself at His feet,.. the matter ends. It is now responsibility of Parameshwar to take care of you, to ensure you are blissful, happy ! If God can not ensure that, then how is He God?

SIMILARLY : It is responsibility of husband (so called Pati 'Parameshwar' ) to take care of wife , come what may, irrespective of however and whatever she is...! Marriage necessarily begins with renunciation and surrender by her. Matter ends. It is now for husband to ensure she is happy and blissful. If husband can not ensure that...he sins !!!

Aah...Jeevas are after all Jeevas only ! They are not Jagdish !!! To feel proud and arrogant that 'I am husband, Pati, Parameshwar' is one thing, and to live/adjust / renounce your comforts, ego, in favour of wife is another !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhak,

Marriage, then divorce, then again trying to get married..........be very clear at present this is not the best choice for you.

You need to go through the process of self analyzation and self assesment. You need to know who you really are ? Not as a personality but as a reality. Who am I ? Contemplate on this question. Meditate on this at least 20 minitues twice a day for 48 days.

Read Sadhak sanjeevani, and other books of Swami Ramsukhdasji. Read Bhagwat gita. Contemplate on its meaning, as a true sadhak/seeker, first discover the TRUTH,

Dedicate at least couple of years for spiritual advancement.After reaching a certain level in tapascharya and sadhna, you will know what is right for you and then you will be able to create what is needed most in your life.

May all good and auspicious things manifest in your life.

Love and regards,
Sadhna

----------------------------------------------

Dear HS, Namaste!
The best way is to study our great Religion, as you say it is, yourself first to see what it says about Marriage and divorce.
Yet from a practical point of view I would say this.
Hurdles you find are obvious as any man/woman or parents will think hard before they commit to the marriage with one who is divorced!
This can be appreciated by asking what would you do if you have to marry a divorced one or are parents of such a person!
Now that you are already divorced, I am not suggesting to find faults with partner or dwell on your own faults!
You have to learn lessons from this failure, and make sure never to repeat them again!
That means to be ego-less in relationship, give in and not always have your ways.
In Marriage both partners are equally important in decision making. Parents on both sides are also of equal importance.
Understand another person from her/his point of views!
Make your life God-centered above all!
Remain prayerful!
Wait patiently, don't be in a hurry to marry or try to buy the marriage!
Trust God and leave it to Him totally! Then accept whatever comes as a result!
Namaskar..................Pratap Bhatt

------------------------------------------------
Marriage spiritual intent social needs socio-economical realities

I would emphasize moderator's comments upfront. Looking for approval for divorce from scriptures is futile as it is opposed to the very spiritual intent of marriage! I would add further looking toward divorce as an escape route in the name of alternative social norms is neither healthy ... your sadness in loneliness is its living proof!!

Copulative pleasures and reproductive urges are the basic animal instincts the humans continue with. Marriage is an institution deployed by most religions for moderating such craves for society's benefit at large and for enabling individuals to practice spirituality while coping with the animal instincts from within as well as around.

The true value of marriage is in the socio-economical harmony and unity it promotes between two individuals and the families/friends/societies behind them. It is a graceful opportunity to develop oneself toward matured appreciation of life in general - (1) empathy toward a different individual and his/her standpoint, (2) tolerance toward opposed and alien views and values that the spouse hails from, (3) respect toward other individuals as they are, (4) Cooperation toward a holistic prosperity - prosperity in wealth, health and spirit ... !

The deeper value in the same institution is (1) to learn the intricacies of human behaviors, relations and emotions to appreciate one's own Vaasanaa's at deeper levels on one hand; and (2) appreciate oneself in others - parents, wife, children, etc. on the other hand. It is an excellent spiritual tool available to us to work within the framework of survival we are born into. It allows us to appreciate our basic instincts at closer quarters on one hand and teaches us to appreciate the presence of oneself beyond one's body and mind cluster. It allows one to reduce the baggage of ego-centric emotions, ignorance and inertia (Manonaasha) and enables one to break the individual barriers built within so as to appreciate the universal presence of The Self beyond (Aatmabodha).

DIVORCE SHOULD NOT BE A CHOICE! However, keeping the socio-economical changes around in mind, it could be the last, THE VERY LAST, choice in a marriage ... To be sought ONLY when the same opportunity turns hostile pushing the individuals involved into intolerable miseries ONLY when all the avenues to break open a gate toward its true intent - social harmony and spiritual awareness ... OR ONLY IF if anyone is subjugated to inhumane socio-economical oppression and physical exploitation in the name of marital bond. Please note that most divorces happen today ONLY DUE TO EGO-CLASH ... all such unfortunate events can be averted with relative ease by spiritual empowerment from within and soical appreciation around ... doom alone befits those who move toward divorce on the grounds of ego!

Hope you will get another opportunity to realize what a true marriage means. Hope you get a partner who appreciates its values. Personal appreciation within is most often the hurdle. One who is clear within alone can bring clarity around. Therefore, more than anything else, wish that you develop the right perspectives of marriage and develop an innate respect toward the same.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------

Marry your divorced wife as if she is a virgin and start new life with her. Marrying another female for Happy Family Life is (for you) just like searching a black cat in a pitch dark room.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

-----------------------------------------------

Hari Om

An advice has been sought from this Divine Forum regarding re-marriage by a divorced Jeeva. We don't know what is the age of Jeeva, why did divorce took place etc. Hence answer has to be accordingly appropriate.

'To marry' is not the ideal most. It is not at all the goal of 'human beings' ! The goal of humanity is emancipation.

However, in order to sustain the creation and let humans 'taste' as a 'sample' the futile worldly 'bhogas' and to get rid of them thereby, the concept of marriage has been approved by Sanatan Dharma. (Your desires have not ceased. Marry, and see what futile pleasures 'bhogas' and 'attachment/association' give you, presume that all in the world have such bhogas /associations and such futile pleasures only , watch the consequences of them and develop dispassion/ detachment for it, and renounce the very desire for attachment/ bhogas ) ! But getting married, has its own huge duties and responsibilities. You can't get 'married' to enjoy 'mating' and 'similarity of opinion/object' ! You get married because your desire to taste worldly bhogas is not yet satiated, you still want 'attachment' with world/people and JUST AS: an affectionate father buys a toy for toddler to please him, the religion permits you to get married. There is no direct co-relation of marriage with a Jeeva's emancipation but a life of Grihastha has as much scope of emancipation as has a life of say student, brahmachari or sadhu.

You have been divorced. You have had one failure already. You have already tasted the 'bhogas' and has tried 'worldly attachment' and are now at the receiving end of its consequences. 'Successful marriage' is not some compulsory test which you must pass by trying it again and again. You entered the arena of 'marriage' without having any acumen for the same, and failed. The best way forward, now, for you is to stop this desire of marrying again. You could not adjust your self in first marriage. Marriage is not some 'fun' , it entails an austerity of very high order. Even if, your spouse was 100% wrong, it was your duty to continue with marriage, sustain her, sacrifice your own ego, pleasures, comforts for her ego, comforts and pleasures. It was your duty. Now my sincere recommendation to you is to turn towards God, take a vow not to marry again, devote your balance life as a celibate, do social service, and fulfill the goal of human birth. Remember the goal of human birth is emancipation and not 'mating' and developing more attachments.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Per my understanding, it is in hindu religion that a man can marry after the death of his wife or a divorce but if a woman does so she has to face the ire of the society ,but itis not so much today as it used to be for the previous generations ,life of a widow was just very troubled one. any way every body knows where the shoe pinches ,so no advise only god can help .jai shree krishna

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The wonderful article on marriage we should send it to all youngsters who are in need of such advices. i as a senior citizen mothr and wife for over five decades and an advocate too am very much overwhelmed with that jayashree sarathy

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

This may appear harsh but Swamiji has shared that "No where do the scriptures say for a man to divorce his wife...."

Please carefully read "How to Lead a Householder Life" It will provide lot of insights into relationships.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/englishbooks/english%20book%20layout/How%20vto%20lead%20a%20house%20hold%20life/main.html

All situations are for one's upliftment and growth. May be God has some other plans for you. Sincerely and honestly Pray to God. He can be your best guide and adviser!

Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: Question is Who are We? and Who is God?

2012-01-21T19:20:00.000-08:00

Interesting.......Question is who are we? and who is God?

SJ

--------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

The question came to Sadhak SJ's mind after reading Swamiji's daily message (posted below) GOD IS WAITING FOR US. This question should be responded, keeping Swamiji's discourse in mind.

Ram Ram

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Hari Om

Hey Humble Saadhakjee ! Hey Mahapurush !! Aapke message hriday ko gadgad kar dete hai ! Mera sadhuvaad!!

Ek varnan Prabhu ka ye bhi hai ki Ve anaadi hain, Ve Prakruti se pare hain, Purushottam hain, sadaiva Samata main sthir rahate hain, Deendayaal hain, Deenanath hain, Sarva Samartha hain, Sarvagya hain, Param Dayaalu hain, Keshav hain, Bhagat vatsal hain, Paramatma hain, Parampitaa hain, Parameshwar hain, Gopaal hain, Govind hain, Giridhar hain, Param paavan hain, ...! Swamiji ki kitaabo main ye varnan bhi to aaya hee hoga naa, Maanyavar Mahoday ? Swamiji ki kitaabo main Bhagwaan ke svabhaav ka varnan bhi aaya hoga. Aaya hoga na Sir? To kyon nahin ham usee se kaam chalale ? Shrimaanji- Bhakti kyaa hoti hai? Bhagwaan ki leelaao ka gungaan bhi bhakti ka ek roop hai. Ye baat theek hai ki Jeeva or Jagdish dono varnanateet hai parantu ye baat bhi to theek hai ki Bhagwaan ke SAGUN SAKAAR roop ka varnan shashro main huaa hai, khoob huva hai, jam kar huvaa hai ! Kyon huva hai jab Bhagvaan varnanateet hain ? Aapne Swamiji ka ek lekh padhaa hai- 'VARNANATEET KA VARNAN' ? To Bhaiyyaji - Jaise Param Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj ne 'Varnanateet' maanate huve bhi varnan kiya, vaise hi aap bhi varnanateet maante huve varnan karle to kyaa eitraaj hai ? Bhakti bhi ho jaayegi. Kyaa Jachee ?

ENGLISH TRANSLATION:

One description of God is also that He is sanatan, eternal, beyond Nature, ever positioned in Equanimity, superior to humans, the most kind and benevolent, all powerful, all knowing, the protector and controller of universe...! Has not He been described so in the books of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Maharaj accordingly? There is SAGUN SAKAAR form of Paramatma also. Scriptures are full of singing His glories and describe in many ways. One form of Bhakti is also 'singing His glories/deliberating/talking about Him' !! Even Swamiji has written an article - Describing the Undescribable !! Isn't it? So what is wrong, Sir, if we also describe Him the way we want to, inspite of He continuing to remain beyond description? Pranaams

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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God!!!!!!!!!!!!
hello from nyc in t he blizzard
LOve these replies today I am Very grateful for the dedication of members
moksh
Sophia
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Dear Ones, Namaste!
As our humble Sadhakji has pointed, God cannot be described in words, can never be an object of our perception by means of sense organs, and mind.
Why, because if God is such an object, it has to have a name, if so then God becomes limited like any another object of our experience, which cannot be the case!
Based on our own experience of ourselves, if we eliminate all names(son, father, mother, doctor, engineer, husband, wife, worker, boss etc etc), then what reemains is pure EXISTENCE, which itself is Consciousness, Knowingness!
Above all this Consciousness is not limited by the objects appearing in it(as pointed out above)! SO, Pure and undivided TOTAL Existence(devoid of names or all names included) in our experience is CONSCIOUSNESS! These words also are merely pointers as is word GOD!

Thus, Who are we? Based on above explanation for satisfying mind, we say WE ARE, we cannot say who by saying this or that names, simply WE ARE!
Again "WE" doesn't refer to individual body-mind organism, rather, points to experience of BEING.
similarly Who is GOD? God is just a name to communicate the inner experience of BEING CONSCIOUS, which is impersonal, unlimited by any name!
Since BEING CONSCIOUS is always present in Waking, Dream, Sleep states of our being, it is our nature, our REALITY, and thus called CONSCIOUSNESS!
See that all objects we know arise or appear and disappear just as waves in the OCEAN or WATER, but only WATER remains! Such is GOD!
Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt

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Hari SharaNam,

Who am "I"? I will let the questioner seek its answer by himself/herself. Knowing "I" does not guarantee knowing the "GOD" but knowing "GOD", nothing remains unkown, whole integral system is known.

So, Who is "GOD"? It can/must not be defined by the imagination of limited capacities of the human minds.

Vedanta Darshan, in very beginning, defines the GOD as "the one from whom the world is created, sustained & dissolved " ( JANMAADASYA YATAH ; BrahmSutra - 1/1/2). This definition is not the creation/imagination of the author's mind although the author is beyond the realized souls. This definition is based upon the scriptures (SHAASTRAYONITVAAT ; BrahmSutra - 1/1/3).

Taittiriya Upanishad -3/1 also defines "GOD" as the one from whom everything is created, maintained and dissolved.
YATO VAA IMAANI BHOOTAANI JAAYANTE | YEN JAATAANI JEEVANTI | YATPRAYANTYABHISAMVISHANTI | TATVIJIGAASAVA | TATBRAHMETI |

Srimad Bhagavad PuraaNa also starts with the same word "JANMAADASYA YATAH" (1/1/1) to offer prayer to the GOD.

Patanjali Ji MaharaaJ, in his Yog Darshan, just after mentioning the Sutra "ISWARPRANIDHAANAADVAA -1/23" (i.e. one can also attain the goal by surrendering to the God), says "... PURUSHHA VISHESHA ISHWAR-1/24" i.e. GOD is VISHESHA PURUSHHA. Please note the word "VISHESHHA". Bhagavad Gita calls GOD as UTTAM/PARAM PURUSHHA/ATMAA/BRAHM (10/12,13/12, 15/17-18).

Kapil Ji Maharaaj, in his Sankhya Darshan (3/55-57), also says ISWAR is the one which directs/controls PRAKRRITI thats why ISHWAR is called SARVAVIT SARVAKARTAA.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

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Question: who are we?
Answer : You are being (Is-ness, Existence) only, nothing else. [hamaaraa swaroop sattaamaatra hai. maanavamaatrake kalyaanake liye page 149].
Question: who is God?
Answer : Whosoever speaks about God [paramaatmaa], only speaks of what is learnt from others only as One who has realized God, can't describe [varnanaateet kaa varnan naheen kiyaa jaa sakataa] Remember "jahaan varnan hai, vahaan tattva naheen hai aur jahaan tattva hai, vahaan varnan naheen hai." [saadhan-sudhaa-sindhu page 58].
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

-----------------------------------------------
Dear sadaks,
We are Jeevathumas (Numeral but finite) and God is Paramathuma.(Singular and infinite)
B.Sathyanarayan

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Hari Om

Great Divine Question befitting this great Divine G T Forum !

Who are we ? We are children of God. Who is God ? God is our Father- The eternal father. Our ONLY OWN.

We are tired travellers and God is final destination.

We are water in clouds, rivers, ponds , atmosphere, gutters, pipes etc and God is ocean. We must reach ocean because till we do not reach there we can not be peaceful. Till we reach ocean, we must flow /change forms and must remain peace-less and sorrowful ! Where is happiness without peace? We want happiness, only happiness, absolute happiness.

We are players and God is Umpire and Captain .

We are strivers (sadhaks) and God is Goal (Sadhya) !

We are students and God is Teacher.

We are dumbs and God is Jaggery.

We are thirsty and God is Water.

We are Purushas and God is Purushottam.

We are actors and God is Director.

We are atmas and God is Paramatma.

We are wives and God is husband.

We are SARVAM and God is VASUDEV.

We are pebbles and God is Himalaya.

We are clouds and God is Sky.

We are rays and God is the Sun.

We are body and God is Heart.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
------------------------------------------

Who am I? What is God?

Interesting indeed

We have to understand one thing before we step forward here. A question raises only due to a need and will wield its authority until the need is mitigated. It would not subside until then, no matter what rationale we can amass around the same! Therefore, no question can ever be "answered"! Also, no question ever "exists" on its own either!! Therefore, it is wise to look at the need that triggered the questions rather than wasting resources on the questions themselves.

What makes the current questions all the more interesting, rather intriguing?! The underlying need remains mystical from one's appreciation.

Who am I? The need for this question is to identify oneself in order to interact with others. Such a need keeps varying in its texture and demands. But, almost always it is rooted in some other need! Also, the very identification depends on alien entities rather than oneself. How can such a needy and dependent state of existence can ever sustain?! Such states are born only to decay and die. Of course, new needs originate from the carcass perpetually - Sasyamiva pachyate martyah sasyamivaajaayate punah! Eventually, the question remains "unanswered" as ever ...

Who am I? Rather everything knows its answer. If at all I know anything, it should be the "I" as such! How can this "I" know anything else without knowing Itself?! And, yet THAT is the last thing one can ever explain for sure! Why? Because, the very notion of explanation is hinged on entities other than oneself!! Therefore, even if the whole universe is explained THAT cannot be!!! Therefore IT IS THE ONLY known ever and is known even to the most ignorant of all; and yet, it remains unknown to the most intelligent ever - Yasyaamatam tasya matam matam yasya na veda sah! Why? Everything is predisposed to seek outward rather than inward - Paraanchi khaani vyatriNaat svayambhooh !!

What is God? The question is self-deceptive! Who can know that?! By definition God ought to be Omnipresent, Omnipotent and Omniscient transcending all the dominions of existence - time-space, matter-energy, knowledge-ignorance or any other - categorically. Then how can any fathom what THAT could be when all these cosmic dominions put together cannot even have a glimpse of the same??!! SURELY, IT IS AN IMPOSSIBLE QUESTION TO ANSWER. But, why then this question is the most intriguing as well as ancient to the human mind???!!!

Who is God? Again, a question has no rationale for its own basis except that it believes to stand on a need. To start with, the body-mind cluster that is baffled with its own limitations in its existential loci starts appreciating the fact that its paths are verily carved by many external forces acting upon it simultaneously and perpetually. Then it lands into a deeper level of baffling when it realizes that every entity is subjected to the same limitations. It starts wondering then ... Who could be operating these entities to act the way they do! What force could be binding these to be what they are?!What intelligence is bridging communication between them??!! In whose belly this infinitude of existence survives as is???!!! Who ensures integrity in their existence as well as in their transactions????!!!!. The mystery deepens as one "progresses".

Again, why one entertains this question? Why a Duryodhana wants to bind a KrishNa, THE FREEDOM as such?! The reson is simple. One is paranoid of one's very existence due to the uncertainties in one's transactions with the world around. One wants to settle this uncertainty positively. That is a survival need. No uncertainty can let any being sleep tight! As one remains utterly unsuccessful to keep one's loci of living for certain, the question keeps haunting from within ... who is this fellow? who is this God??

Kenshitam patati preshitam manah kena praaNah prathamah praiti yuktah |

Keneshitaam vaachamimaam vadandti chakshuh shrotram ka vu devo yunakti ||

Unless the needs - to identify oneself and to understand what governs transactions around - are mitigated, the questions remain engraved in one's consciousness. Only when one starts appreciating the self-effulgence of the "I", one could retard one's query "Who am I?". "I" was, is and will be forever independent of the objective relations one would ever perceive!! Similarly, only when one realizes the potential of an all-pervasive universal reality, the question "What is God?" starts fading from the horizons.

But the questions ought to and will remain in their subtle forms till the "I" and "God" remain discrete to each other! The need to question this discreteness further is to mitigate the very needs we started with.

Is there anything that is devoid of an "I"? Nothing can ever exist without this self-manifestation. It is fundamental for the very existence. If one "I" is different from another, who else is there to establish the obvious and unbroken communication between the two? When nothing exists without "I" how can this third party be other than "I"? Really speaking, what is this "I"?! Can anyone be isolated as such ... as some "one"?? Everything across the universe is a single monolithic existence from which not even an atom can set itself apart!! Then why identity? and, what uncertainty?? When no identities are needed and when no uncertainties can ever exist ... how can there be a question "Who am I?" and "What is God?"? ... THAT is everything one can ever fathom and beyond ... Pratibodhaviditam matam amritam ... I AM THAT ... Aham Brahmaasmi ... THAT IS EVERYTHING ... Sarvam khalu idam brahmaa ...

Till then Who am I?! What is God??!! What is all these???!!! let us roll as the questions demand we will roll till we realize we can opt not to we will roll till we opt NOT TO!!!

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
-----------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

18th January, 2012, Wednesday
Maagh Krishna Dashami, Budhvar, Vikram Samvat 2068

God is Waiting for Us

The curtain that is seen between God and us, the distance that is seen, the separation that is perceived, is in fact our own creation, not God's doing, as God is Omnipresent and is present at all times. Not only that, He is closer than our assumed sense of My-ness. He is present As-is even in the most fallen and degraded ones as well. Therefore spiritual aspirants must want that they should accept their Beloved within themselves, and become free from all anxiety or worries "nischint". When besides God there is acceptance of no other entity, then an aspirant will attain his Beloved within himself. However, as long as within remains the assumption - "I am the body" till then he will attain nothing but the world.

He who sees His Beloved in other individuals, in saints and great souls, in scriptures etc, he will have to experience separation from his Beloved. However, he who sees his Beloved within himself, he does not have to suffer the separation with his beloved. However close you may see your Beloved when seen as separate, there will most definitely be feeling of separation. However, when the Beloved is seen as inseparable (within us) then an eternal affinity is established. As long as the aspirant's inner senses perceive the existence of many, till then he cannot experience an eternal affinity with his Beloved, rather he wanders from place to place in this world to attain his Beloved.

An aspirant should never feel a sense of hopelessness with the real essence (tattva), because the aspirant has complete eligibility, rights and potential for realization of the supreme truth. It is a rule that he who can enjoy worldly pleasures, he can also turn away from the world and experience bliss. He who can develop attachment and aversion in the world, he can also renounce attachment and aversion and be able to truly love as well. He who can engage in sense pleasures, he can also renounce pleasures and be able to attain "Yog" (equanimity). He who has the ability to adopt, also has the ability to denounce.

Man endowed with desires can never love anyone. Therefore a man of desires cannot be a true believer in God. Man becomes a true believer in God, when in his eyes besides the one Beloved (God) nothing else remains. Such a true believer attains Love by God's grace. Although God's grace is showering equally on all beings, then too that grace is only experienced when man entirely becomes only God's. Not accepting the existence of anyone else, is becoming God's.

Besides the One God, there is no one else who is my Beloved (Lover). When besides God when we love anyone else, then that love destroys "sanhaar" you and the other. This is not love, it is attachment. It is only the Love for one's own country that destroys "sanhaar" other countries; attachment to one's own organization / group that destroys "sanhaar" other organizations; attachment to one's own race, caste, type, "jaati" that destroys other race, caste, type, "jaati".

If besides the one God, if all other wants are renounced, then God will come without our calling and the world will disappear for you without trying. Hope of His attainment in the future is a mistake. One must serve others. Let there not be the slightest bit of affinity with the body and the world - this is true "renunciation" and besides That One God, do not accept the existence of anyone else, not even the slightest bit - this itself is Love.

He who is filled with desire, that being alone cannot love. Because desires are of the world and Love is of God. Man filled with desires is a worshipper of worldly sense objects. Whereas a man filled with Love, is a worshipper of God. The worshipper of the world becomes dependent and the worshipper of God becomes independent. (to be continued)

From "Sant Samaagam" in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

If in doubt regarding the translation, please read the original Hindi message by Swamiji.

FOR MESSAGE IN HINDI PLEASE VISIT Date : 16th January, 2012 "BHAGWAAN HAMAARI PRATIKSHAA KAR RAHE HAI"

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