Wednesday, January 27, 2016

[gita-talk] Gita Talk Group - Moving Forward

 

Shri Hari


Thank you to several sadhaks for providing feedback on the Gita-Talk group.

Your input has been considered.  Several Sadhaks have also sent Bhagavad Gita related questions,  which we could begin addressing shortly.   


At present more than 97% of the messages being received in the group are SPAM mails.  Previously we could delete SPAM messages without opening each message,  but now each message requires individual handling and deleting.   Of recent, yahoo has also started to truncate the messages to a certain length,  making it difficult to display our entire string of messages.  


We will think through the best way to proceed with gita-talk group. 
At present we are leaning towards this group for mostly english questions.  However,  short responses in hindi will be acceptable.  


In the mean time,    we would like to try out google groups just for HINDI question and answers.  If any sadhak is interested in HINDI gita-talk,  please visit and sign-up at -  


https://groups.google.com/d/forum/gita-talk-hindi

the groups email id is -   gita-talk-hindi@googlegroups.com



Thank you all,  and we will see you soon !!!   Until then,  please check out the Gita related resources at


 http://swamiramsukhdasji.net/eBooks/Gita_books.html


Gita Talk Moderators, 


Ram Ram 





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Saturday, January 9, 2016

[gita-talk] How to wipe out the esteem we hold for the unreal (perishable, temporary) ?

 




How to wipe out the esteem we hold for the unreal (perishable, temporary) ? 

today , from Swamiji's discourse, I have come to know that holding in high esteem,  the relationship etc with unreal-perishable things,  that itself is sin.   After this,  I began to think,  that one inevitably looks upon every relationship,  with esteem;  then by what kind of thought process,  will the esteem for the unreal be wiped out.   Please explain this methodically with elaboration.   Ram Ram

Man Mohan Batra

असत का आद र कैसे मिटे

स्वामीजी के प्रवचन से आज मालूम हुआ कि असत् - नाशवान वस्तु, सम्बन्ध आदि का जो आदर है वह ही पाप है। मैं इस के बाद सोचने में लग गया कि हर व्यवहार में मन में इनका आदर तो होता ही है तो यह असत् का आदर किस तरह की सोच रखने से मिटेगा, कृपया प्रक्रिया सहित विस्तार से बतलाइये। राम राम।। ....

मनमोहन बत्रा

========================================

भैया, सामान्य भाषामें संबंध तो रहेगा ही क्योंकि जब तक शरीर रहेगा, उसका (शरीरका) संबंध माता-पिता, भाई-बहन, पुत्र-पुत्री, वास्तु, घटना आदिसे रहेगा ही। उसे चाह करके भी कोई नहीं मिटा सकता। जो मिटाना है वह है उस संबंधसे स्वयंकी आसक्ति​  अथवा स्वयंमें उस संबंधकी आसक्ति।
जिस क्षण आपने शरीरको 'मैं', 'मेरा' और 'मेरे लिये' अस्वीकार किया नहीं कि सारे संबंध मिट गये।
संबंध मिटनेकी घोषणा नहीं करनी है और ना ही उसकी दूसरोंसे पहचान करानी है। जो अंदरमें है, उसे ही रिपोर्ट करना है। बात खत्म।
सविनय,
साधक
------------------------------------------------------------------


Shri Hari

You know relation with unreal is wrong as per Gita 15(7) you are part of God so accept relation with God.

Unreal do not say you are part of his,you only accept unreal is yours by mistake.

Remove your mistake as per Gita 5(16) or depend on God who will remove your mistake as per Gita 10(11)

Remember teaching of Swami ram sukh dass ji maharaj Only God is yours as thinking of Meera bai. This thinking is very useful to wipe out the esteem you hold for the unreal.

Ram Ram

Pawan Kumar Singhal

-----------------------------------------------------


Q: I have come to know that holding in high esteem,  the relationship etc with unreal-perishable things,  that itself is sin.  
Sri Krishna & Sri Rama had family and children. The greatest difference between THEM and us is attachment- Mine. THEY had NO attachment on anything in this world. We have attachment on everything on earth. I, mine and me keeps us in cycle of births. For Sri Rama there was NO difference between forest and kingdom. When Sri Rama was sitting in the chariot to go forest HIS father was requesting Sri Rama not to go away. Sri Rama tells charioteer not to give attention. In the place of a king, Sri Rama sent pregnant Mother Sita to forest after becoming king on hearing about dhobi remarks.
Sri Rama fought with Hanuman to keep up HIS promise to a sage. There was NO mine, me or I ,  but still was living setting examples. There are many such things, as Dharma was HIS life. Sri Krishna knew as an infant leaving mother Devaki, there was NO my mother. Similarly while leaving Mother Yasodha there was no my. If one watches Sri Krishna carefully, we can see there NO my Arjuna, my enemy Duryodhan, but only Dharma. In fact Arjuna had insulted Sri Krishna. For abuses or praises Sri Krishna was NOT attached to anyone, which can be observed in YUDHAVA GEETHA. Many due to ignorance speek Sri Krishna played tricks to win the war. But they should also not forget that the innumerable tricks Duryodhana played from childhood on Pandavas. The result  Duryodhana tricks, was reversed on him. Even Duryodhan mother at last felt my son  and abused sri Krishna family should go to ruin. She least felt or remembered her son`s innumerable tricks, bas words, abuses etc. That was her attachment an example that we are doing today. So our main problem comes when our dear ones do mistakes and we think my ones and forgive. Same way our dear ones do some wonderful deeds, we say my ones. For us only Sri Krishna in Geetha said, "Gunatheet" NO concern to praises and abuses. Bagavan Sri Krishna said in Geetha, Kama Yesu___ etc i.e. from desire comes anger, greed etc. Desire comes only if me. Mine and I comes.
In fact we don't know who we are and people around us, and why we are on this earth, and we don't know that we are playing a role as in cinema, while on this earth.  This destroy us. Ex: Read Jada Bharath history in Srimath Bagavath. So when everything and anything belongs to GOD, saying mine, me, ours, and I is sin.
OK when child (No Gyana) celebrate new year or birthday. When we are 60`s we have to think we are nearing death and NOT preparing ourselves for our final journey. In Yaksha Prashna there is an important question answered by Dharma Raj about death.
Q: After this,  I began to think,  that one inevitably looks upon every relationship,  with esteem;  then by what kind of thought process,  will the esteem for the unreal be wiped out.  
It is not inevitable. Without Gyana it becomes inevitable. Gyana comes then inevitable disappears. Like we all know darkness goes when light come on. When  Sat Sangh comes Gyana
satsaNgatve nissN^gatvaM
nissaNgatve nirmohatvam.h .
nirmohatve nishchalatattvaM
nishcalatattve jiivanmuktiH .. (9)
From Satsangh comes non-attachment, from non-attachment comes freedom from delusion, which leads to self-settledness. From self-settled-ness comes Jeevan Mukti.
B.Sathyanarayan


----------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari


Ram Ram 

====================================



ENGLISH  :   www.swamiramsukhdasji.net  


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[gita-talk] How can I become eternal ?

 



Question: I don't want to die. How can I become immortal or eternal?  

-----------------------------------

Question: How can I become immortal or eternal?  

Most sadhaks responded that I am already immortal. I don't have to do anything to achieve the state of immortality.

My desire >> I don't want to die.

So, my desire is already fulfilled as I am immortal. I will never die. What will die is my body which I am not? That is great truth to me and all the sadhaks. What we want is already achieved?

One sadhak wrote >> You can not become immortal as you are ever immortal. It is to be just realized.

I have 2 questions --

1) Does realizing my immortality change anything? Identifying self as body is like a dream. Does the dream affect or change real non-dream state? How? Basically, do I need to focus on waking up from dream?

2) How can I wake up from this dream or realize immortality?

g a mittal

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Moderator,
Ram Ram
Thanks to all contributors to this topic. It was very exciting and informative.
After reading all these responses, there is no way of closing this topic. it is
a bottomless or black hole, the answer or answers lies somewhere or will
come from One or many. Most of the contributors gave excellent responses
but leave you even confused or wanting to hear more or feel something is
missing. We have responses from all corners of thinking. No one should be
say what is right or wrong, as this is something, I believed was asked throughout
the ages, as one response said the philosophers, of the past had deep discussions
on this topic. This topic will give you a massive headache and never satisfied
My 2 cents is? ah, there are too many things in life you need to spend on that
to worry about if you like or will die. Enjoy the precious time you have NOW??
spent it wisely? with yourself? family? friends, cousins and relatives? if and when
you die, it will not matter to you? where you are going is another topic of discussion?
Can we start another topic "Where do we go when we Expire".
A famous writer said, I learnt about my presence on earth, and I am using this life
to pass thru, leaving it a better place when I arrived, and I do not want to come here
again. I feel this is a profound statement. So who will start the next topic. which is
Where do we go after we expire?
Professor Xavier would you start this one please.
Sincerely
Gupchand bai? Narayan?


======================


पहले यह सुनिश्चित करें :
कौन मरना नहीं चाहता? ध्यान रहे शरीर किसीका भी मरने (या जाने या विलुप्त होने) से बच नहीं सका है किसी भी युगमें आजतक अन्यथा दिखा दीजिये साधकको इसका अपवाद।
कौन अमर (immortal या eternal) होना चाहता है? जिसे मैं (I) संज्ञा दी है वह कौन है? कब उसका जन्म हुआ? इस समय वह कहाँ है? वह मरेगा (जिससे बचाना चाहते हैं) इसका आपको कैसे पता?
इन दोनों प्रश्नोंके उत्तर कहींसे भी (अच्छा हो स्वामी रचित साहित्यसे या स्वामीजी निसृत वाणीसे पता करें) पता होते ही 'अमर' होने संबंधी प्रश्न गायब हो जायेंगे।  
सविनय,
साधक

------------------------------

Question asked: I don't want to die. How can I become immortal or eternal?
In fact 99% of humans do not want to die. Animals have no such desire as they are not given that instinct, because due to grace of GOD they raise from lower birth to higher birth without any effort until becoming human. Ref: Script Vivekachudamani of Sri Adi Sankara. Human birth considered as most rare by many sants and almost all scripts. From human birth one can raise to heaven with or without body. In 14 to16 century there are 3 sants who raised to abode of GOD by pushpaka viman in public view with their body and those place from where they left are still for one can see.
Dear Sadak, you don't want to die. If you can strictly follow the principles taught by sants, your body aura changes to deathlessness. There were 3 sants like that was Pattinathar, Arunagiri Nather, Vallar who disappeared in thin air without death. You can read their life in net.
Dear Sadak, every human has the ability to become immortal. To become immortal one has to be without DESIRE i.e. everything around you and everyone around, you should see without attachment. Many sants said an example, like water on lotus leaf. You can enjoy that comes on your way dharmically, but should not desire it for once more, as once more never ends. Bagavath Geetha says, desire is like pouring ghee in fire to put it off. Whereas fire grows bigger with ghee. I would say in Kaliyug, pouring petrol on fire. Actually all creatures do not have any desire, except human. Animals and creatures have only instinct for sex only when needed. They do not crave for it. We humans crave for unlimited desire from money, to woman, vengeance, greed, power etc + to live without death. Only by removing from bottom of mind those desires, you can be free from death, like Sants tukaram, gnaneswar, puanderdoss,  and host of sants in south India.
The basic knowledge that why we go to temples, read puranas, sat sangh etc is NOT known to 99% of people. Only that knowledge will help to raise from humans to divinity like Buddha, Christ, 12 Alwars, 63 Nayanmars, hundreds of Bakthas. Sadaks should read the chapter where Sri Krishna says to Yudhister (Dharma Raj) about a pumpkin that was taken with them for puniya threet (Holy rivers bath) from himalasyas to middle of india.
B.Sathyanarayan, Chennai   

---------------------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,
Your want of not to die is an indication of your immortality. You can not become immortal as you are ever immortal. It is to be just realized.
May God bless you!
N. K. Dubey

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hari Om

It is wonderful that you don't want to die. But do not feel special about your want. There is no creature in this universe who wants to die. There s nothing special, therefore, about your not wanting to die. Ha !!! But there is one more fact - No body wants to die and no body remains alive. Every one must die. 

Now come to the Q. There is desire in you ( and why only in you ...in every one who lives) to become immortal. That desire proves that immortality is possible. Because it is a law that if you have any desire in you, the element to fulfil that desire exists. For example, if you feel thirsty that means there is some element already present , in the instant case - water, which can quench your thirst. Similarly, if you have desire of immortality , that means immortality is existing, and that means one can become immortal. 

Now you have asked how to become immortal. Actually , you are already immortal. Now happy ? Yes ... It is a fact that you are already immortal. Check with any Scripture of Sanatan (Eternal) Dharma- you will find that you are already immortal. You are not experiencing that immortality because you have wedded yourself with mortal. You want to live in the present "body" forever. That is not possible. It is your stupidity that in spite of you being immortal, you like mortal body. Who can help such stupid guy ? So if you want to be immortal, accept immortality of your soul. Do not accept mortal body to become immortal. Do that, you will experience immortality. 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  

Your body will die not you.
You are atma which can be realised by self less action for the welfare of all (gita 3-19),knowledge of perishable(Gita 5-16),believe in God (gita10-11)
You can approach Guru for salvation (gita4 slok34) & Bhagwat(11-3slok21)
But you have to do your salvation by your own attitude

Pawan Kumar Singhal

------------------------------------

The only phenomenon that is permanent is change. Everything changes, even the rate of change is changing. Our constituent particles may be permanent in the present edition of the universe, but we, being a combination of the constituents, are subject to constant change. So the desire not to die or to remain eternal is itself an unclear one. If God appears in front of me and asks me to choose the combination and stage of mine which I want not to die but be there forever, which combination that I have been so far shall I choose? On top of it, it is a selfish desire. Even if the universe around me, including me, is to be there intact forever, it will be so boring. So, let me die and not be there forever. If I cannot make the best of what I am now, what is the guarantee that I can do so even if I do not die and continue forever?

k s rao

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Read 'Living Heaven Here on Earth: Finding the Divinity Within You' a new book

gappec

---------------------------------------

The topic of discussion here is "I don't want to die. How can I become immortal or eternal?"
This, the quest for eternity is perhaps the root of all philosophies and religions.
Here the keywords are I and eternal.  
What is I or human existence? This is a very basic question for which there are no answers. So we have to start with a hypothetical answer and that was provided by the great mathematician and philosopher Rene Descartes according to whom "Cognito; ergo Sum (I think; so I exist)" So we presume we exist because we think and consequently ask questions like "I don't want to die. How can I become immortal or eternal?"
But from the absolute or philosophical point of  view this is only a presumption.
Now let us see what we are from the material or physical point of view. We are made of matter - electrons, atoms, molecules etc - which keep on changing. What is more, we keep shedding these atoms and molecules and taking in new atoms and molecules in a constant biological process. So like the waters of a river our body and its ingredients keep changing from moment to moment. It is in this context that the Greek Philosopher Heraclitus said that we cannot step into the same river twice.
Though the waters of a river keep changing constantly we still give it the same name such as Ganges or Periyar. It is the same with us. Though our names remain the same throughout life, our body particles keep changing constantly like the waters of a river. So in a way I am not the same from moment to moment.
So from the point of philosophy and biology I am not an absolute entity, but only a psychological or existential assumption.
Now about eternity. We are made of matter, different kinds of matter. And according to the first law of thermodynamics no matter can be created or destroyed. Religions say that we are created. But it vitiates against the first law of thermodynamics. Instead, our constituent matter has existed for ever and will exist for ever. So in a way of saying we are mortal and will end with death when we cannot think as Descartes said. On the other hand the matter that constitutes our body cannot be destroyed and will remain eternal if the first law of thermodynamics holds good which it seems to do under all circumstances.
New discoveries like black holes and singularities are being made every so often and so a concrete answer to the topic of this discussion "I don't want to die. How can I become immortal or eternal?" remains elusive at this point of time.   Of course religions, scriptures and godmen have answers to everything. The problem is whether their answers will stand up to the scrutiny of reason and science.

varecatx

------------------------------


Hari OM,

You can not become eternal in one life time. It can take you several life times. First,
you need to control your mind- thoughts (do "thinking divine, 24/7") for
many years and see how far you can go and how many lessons you can learn. 
Depending on where and how you far can get there, you next life journey will begin. 

If you want to become eternal now then who will pay for "sins" and bad-
karma? If you have done no "sin" then you should be knowing your fate
and not asking people who are as lost as you are. Asking people means that
your no better than them. Good luck!

notesav

-----------------------------

Shri Hari

you may listen to - 



Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

=======================



 






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[gita-talk] Why some masters say to believe - I am God and others I am just a servant for God ?

 

Shri Hari

This brings a closure to this topic.  Thank you all for your responses.  

Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram 

=============================================



Very good video.  May I ask why some master say to believe "I am God /  I am Shiva",  whereas others say to think,  "I am just a servant for God /  I am dust before God?"  Is it because if those who believe they are their desires and karma,  think they are God,  will be disillusioned because they don't even know themselves ?  

What does Swamiji say ?   

Shiva Sadhak

========================

There are different philosophies - advaita, vishista-advaita, dvaita, achintya-bhed-abhed-tattva etc.

All agree on following:

You are God's and only God is yours.
You are not part of the world and this world is not yours. (You are not body, you are not mind and you are not their product.)
You are eternal. You don't die. Similarly, you are full of knowledge and bliss. (sat chid anand).
This world is manifestation of God. Therefore, serve people around you seeing them as manifestation of God. (so ananya jaki mati tarai hanumant, mei sevak sacharachar rup bhagvant)

If you truly accept above, you will find answer to your answer.

g a mittal

-------------------------------------------------

जो भी कहता है I am God वह सीधा धोखा देता है (वह चाहे कैसा भी सिद्ध हो)।
उसने अपने ही कथनसे प्रमाणित किया कि वह (I) और (God) अलग हैं अन्यथा उसे सबको बतानेकी जरूरत ही क्यों होती कि वही (जिसे वह I कहता है) परमात्मा (जिसे वह God कहता है) है?
सविनय,
साधक

-----------------------------------------------------

विवेक भैया, साधक स्वयंको परमात्माका अंश (कभी उससे अलग नहीं) पाता है। आपका कथन Any body can become God by doing their duty sincerely but vigorously without bothering too much  the outcome of action साधकके गले नहीं उतरा। क्या आप एक उदाहरण देंगे जो कोई (any 
body) कभी परमात्मा (God) बन गया हो? (यदि अंग्रेजीमें God परमात्माका वाचक है) 
सविनय,
साधक

---------------------------------------------


On the path of spiritual growth a sadhak moves from dwait to vashisht adwait to adwait that is from duality to non duality , hence these attributes. in short when you are a starter you are in duality me and my God. on further spiritual growth you recognize oneness with god as well as the dual state of mind . this state of mind is vashishta adwait then ultimatelythe sadhak realizes one with the divine that is the stage when you say I am God.
with love ckkaul

------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhaks,
The video is highly philosophical and can be practised by those who lead sanayasi life. It is very difficult for ordinary person with family living . 
Any body can become God by doing their duty sincerely but vigorously without bothering too much  the outcome of action . 
We narrate one incidence in Mrs Thavudammal life who is able to get insights from Lord Krishna directly . During 2006 she has gone to Ahmadabad to recieve an award from one organisation. Then she visited  Dwaraka to see Krishna mandir. While returning she wanted to see one Prof working in IIM to get donation for her gaushala. But Prof was out of station. On the night Lord Krishna told her in the dream that " There is no difference between Me and the Prof ; since you had seen me at Dwaraka there is no need to see again the Prof as he is Mine and I am  Prof " . As the Prof is hard worker and involved in many social activities with utmost sincerity in a detached manner , Krishna told that he is Mine.. 

Whenever men or women do this duty with utmost sincerity they attain that level. Some in Meditation etc they attain that stage too . But this stage  may not sustain long once they may come down from that level. Therefore one shall be concious and alert always or do sadhanas or karmas to keep up this stage or when they attain old age unable to keep up that level once again come down. 
Lord Krishan tells that among all yogis those who always dependant on Me is most beloved person to Him. 

vivek 


----------------------------------------------------------------



Dear ALL,
                           Namaskar!

 It is an Absolute Reality that not only "I" but, all living and non living identities of universe are God only! 

To begin with, it is very much essential to understand as to what one means by God! God and all other identities materialist or, non-materialist, physical or meta-physical, living or, non-living all are describable by their properties only. For example "I", am described by my physical body, internal & external organs plus memories I carry in physical so called brain as me and mine. Now, when I die the second and third persons say I died but fact is my body is well there so confirming that I am not in reality Body which I was being considered but something else! Same way, people say, may my soul rest in peace so again logically saying I am not even soul.......similarly, I am referred as final thing Consciousness that is to say again it is my consciousness so, fact is I am not even consciousness........finally confirming that I am something which is unknown so is GOD or anything else for that matter! Thus,  Absolute Reality is ONE only ONE that is SOMETHING which gets disillusioned into infinite identities having various physical and meta physical properties as universe(s)!

Different masters speak differently to different persons depending upon their level of spirituality which exist as we notice all around. That is to say the level of their disillusioned mind which has moved their individual identities away from the Absolute Reality that ALL ARE SOMETHING AND ALSO ONE AND THE SAME which can be named GOD, DOG, PARAM-BHARM, ALLAH and ISHWER or, whatever one wants to name!  

In conclusion, therefore Masters speak differently to different persons according to their spiritual level.  It is very much correct that absolute reality is that Every one is God only as explained above but, to the level of illusion of an Individual consciousness  involving itself into, turns away from that absolute reality! Those common persons are therefore just dust only compared to identities whose mind is erased of all illusions and have become Absolute  Reality only! 

Referring Lord Krishna who said in B-Gita describing GOD as SOMETHING without any name:

INDRIYANI PARAN YAHUR, INDRIYABHAH PARMAM MANH!
MANSAS TU PARA BUDHE, YO BUDHE PARTAS TU SAH!!

Your's   Humble

(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam!
Essence is non-dual (i.e. there is not two essences). Until THAT is realized by the seeker, he / she tries to cross the individuality which appears to be dividing the essence. To cross that, various methods/ techniques are suggested depending upon the level and capacity of the seeker. The "I am God" and "I am God's " are in fact subtle or subtlest thoughts for the seekers to cross the individuality and realize the oneness.
 
In the case of "I am God" approach, the thought mainly revolves around "I" which requires the seeker to make sure that "I" is pure otherwise it will be very difficult to come out of "impure I" loaded with the heaviest "God". This is the reason, various Upanishads (e.g. ShukRahsyopanishad, Mahopanishad, Muktikopanishad etc. ), dealing with such approach strictly advise the seeker to approach the realized one to make sure he/she is not caught under "impure I" loaded with the heaviest "God" and assuming he/she has realized " I am God".

The other approach (i.e. "I am God's") primarily revolves around the God where the seeker has to first understand the concept & glory of God properly and then minimize the  "I" so that individuality (i.e. impure "I") can easily be destroyed and the essence "God" is revealed in him. After this stage, there is not two ("TASMIN TAJJANE BHEDA-ABHAAVAAT" - Naarad Bhakti Sutra/41).

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

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Dear Sadaks,
Rarely we come across a person saying "I am GOD". But if he is most humble and not dressed in polished cloths, NO make up, NO car etc we can have to think. May be he is one with GOD. Such a person will not seek attract ordinary men and easily teach divines. We have to be behind such person for some time/ years then HE may teach. Example:- Swamy Chinmayanandha learnt from Tapovan Maharaj. Others saying, "I am dust from GOD", is their own conviction. As far I know, my answer should be, " I do not know who I am, and seeking GOD".
B.Sathyanarayan .  

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First decide how many masters do (or did) exist, if many do (or did) exist at all.
Humbly,
Saadhaka



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