Thursday, December 31, 2015

[gita-talk] Clarification - If God is Unthinkable, how can He be meditated upon and vice versa?

 

Shri Hari 

This brings closure to this topic.   Thank you,  Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram



Shree Hari 
परमात्मा अचिन्त्य है‒'अचिन्त्यम्', उसका जो चिन्तन (स्मरण) करता है‒'अनुस्मरेत्' (८ । ९), तो जो अचिन्त्य है, उसका चिन्तन कैसे ? और जिसका चिन्तन होता है, वह अचिन्त्य कैसे ?
God is 'Achintyam' (unthinkable),  but Lord says to 'anusmaret' to meditate (to think, remember, contemplate) on Him.  (Gita 8/9).  How to meditate on, (to think of)  the Unthinkable ?  And that which one can meditate, think, contemplate  on,  How is He unthinkable ?  
Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram
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भैया B.Sathyanarayan जी!
एकाध बार वर्तमानकालके उदाहरण भी दिया कीजिये। भूतकालके उदाहरणको वर्तमानकालका जिज्ञासु पाठक चाही गयी जीवंत-प्रेरणाकी तरह ले नहीं पाता। यदि ले पाता होता तो आज समाजकी जो दशा है, उससे भिन्न (अर्थात् वैसी नहीं होती की जैसी है) होती। यह कटु सत्य हम कब स्वीकार करेंगे?  
सविनय,
साधक

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because God is every thing and ever present so take any form you regard and love and meditate on that form and its positive attributes . that is how you can meditate on unthinkable . it is your choice that God will respond you in the form you meditate. that is the compassion of God.

c k kaul 

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आदरणीय Notesav जी!
कृपया यह और बता दीजिये कि God भी क्या मेरा (mine) या तेरा (thine) होता है? जो आपने लिख दिया,''You do not seem to do anything for your God''. कितने Gods आप जानते हैं?
उनके बारेमें बताइयेगा। 
सविनय,
साधक

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Dear Sadaks,
Namaste.
The question was: When GOD is Apprameyam (Cannot be seen) and GOD is omnipresent filled everywhere, how can we see or realize God? The meaning behind it is, you cannot see GOD like an object in this universe with your Chakshus (Eyes) and you cannot realize God by your ordinary senses used for living on this earth.
Tell me who you are and show me who you are. I know, I am not my leg, hand, head or anything in my body. We know that many people can survive without eyes, hands, legs etc. We know we cannot survive without Parana (Air). Even that prana is for survival of body. You are not the body. You again come back to this earth and manifest with a body, let us presume as a human. Then can you show me, "who you are" or "can I know who am I?' during the period between death and rebirth. We can, for such details read Grabopanashid or Kapila Geetha. When you cannot know or see yourself, is it easy to see or know GOD, creator of 84 Lakh spices on this earth. 
 
But, Bhagavath Geetha says, you can see yourself (Athuman) and see and realize GOD by Bakthi & Gyana. Many saints walked on water, fire, disappeared and appeared, changed forms, took the same form in 2/3 places at same time. This is know Amanusha Sakthi (occult Powers) which is part of GOD`s power. Like Sri Adi Sankara Chariya, Tapovan Maharaj etc who knew this, clearly said, "Maanusha Deham Dullabam" (Rare is human birth). This rare feature we do not use and we remain in, "Punarapi Maranam- Punarapi Jananam—" of Script Bajagovindam.
 
Can we give details of Black hole through which one can go to Sri Vaikunt? But saints have given. In Srimath Bagavath Sri Krishna took Arjuna through black hole to Sri Vaikunt and brought back a Bramin man`s 9 children (who died on earth). God said as Anantham (Ominpresent). So one can only know by faith that GOD is everywhere. If one remains in constant faith and  will not even think of harming even his enemies. Then his body reaches a austral state and his 3rd eye opens. The eye is in forehead middle of eyebrow.  This was the state in Sathiya Yuga, Treta Yuga when NO temples were there.
Later idols and temples were built, so that man became more research than understanding himself. But very very few only became saints and they saw GOD, in the form they put earnest faith. Those saints also had been put to lot of tests (As one can know from histories of saints). Only when they became totally conscience that everything and every action and every thought and every desire puts them far from GOD, their 3rd eye opened. Action, thought and desire are most dangerous weapon separating one from GOD. This is separate subject. Buddha was sitting under tree for years. When realization took place, he was looking at people strangely and everyone thought he has become mad. His 3rd eye opened and could see GOD, but all on earth was strange, though he knew it earlier to realization.
It took few days for Buddha to come to normal. Samartha Ramadoss went into Sri Vital temple at Panderpur and God appeared to him as Sri Rama. Adi Sankarar went into Sri Ragam huge temple in Thichy- Tamilnadu, Sri Vishnu gave Dharshan as Bhagavan Shiva. Sri Adi Sankarar himself has sung a poem in temple praising the idol of Sri Vishnu lying on serpent, as Bhagan Shiva that HE took HIS serpent from HIS neck and made the serpent as bed. There are many such instances.
Sri Krishna and Sri Rama are forms that manifested from Sri Vishnu, says Sri Vishnu Puran. Sri Krishna disappearance was due to Jara arrow. Sri Rama disappearance was in river. Here both knew their coming on earth and leaving the earth. Here both knew they are like humans but NOT humans, and they came from elsewhere for a divine cause.
We as humans have to pray, think, adore Sri Krishna and Sri Rama. In the process when we become totally harmless by speech, action and thought (Pure by Kayaka Karma, Vaachaka Karma & Maanasha Karma), then our 3rd eye opens and we attain divines one with GOD, WHO can be seen but understood. That is MEDITATION. This is called in sastras as Vivechana. Bhagavat Geetha clearly says, that on which you meditate on your last breath, you become that. Meditate as, "Oh God, I cannot see YOU without your power, I cannot understand YOU without Gyana, Etc" One of the 12 Alwars (Vaishavite saints) sings, "Oh God there are number of crocodiles pulling me down- Oh God come to my rescue like that YOU came to rescue of an Elephant Gajendra whose leg was caught by crocodile". That is meditation of meditating on inner self to know who he is.
Baktha Gora stamped his son to death by accident. When his wife abused vulgarly, his only reply was, "Vitalnath gave the child and HE took it". Poothanam child was killed on the 1st Anniversary of his child. His wife was outraged. He said, "When Sri Krishna is our child in our heart, why cry for the child who reached Sri Krishna lotus feet". These thoughts are meditational utmost strength. Sitting and closing eyes and mind wandering worst than normal stage, and it is NOT meditation. Meditation is a fixed thought in normal awakening stage, like these two saints who lost their children, but remained on thought focused on GOD only is ours. Thinking GOD only is our will not help. But when you loose most precious things or most beloved one, thinking GOD is only mine, (but others come and go) is defined by GOD as meditation. GOD calls these people living normally, but meditation fixed on HIM, as HIS BAKTHAS. Example: Sri Krishna pretends to have severe head ache. Sri Krishna says, if one HIS Baktha could give the dust of his/her feet, to rub on HIS forehead, headache will go. Nardath goes back, Sathiya Bama and others goes back, Yudhava goes back. Then Sri Krishna tells Yudhava to go to goipies and get the dust. Remaining part sadaks know. That BAVANA of Gopies is pure meditation and it is easy. Bagavath geetha says, it is very difficult to get HIM by meditation. Not one in million achieve. Whereas my Bakthas achieve me easily. Baktha meditation is focused thoughts like Baktha Gora or Sant Poodhanam. So meditation is thought process streamlined on focusing on GOD living normal life   
 That state many saints clearly explained with examples. Unless you taste sugar you do not know how sugar tastes. Another saint Thirumoolar who lived 3000 years on hills, said, that if a child asks, "What a man & woman doing in darkness hugging together"? It cannot be explained, so is the universal conscience of Godliness. One has to experience GODLINESS but cannot be explained.      
Many in south India knows about Saint Vallalar. One can get his life history in net. He wrote 5 volumes of book known as Thirumurai on Bhagan Shiva sitting in the great Chidambaram temple. One day he realized that God is not in form and wrote 6th volume of Thirumurai and left the temple. This saint was from recent times. He disappeared in thin air in presence of public. Bala Yogi of Visakapattinam, of recent times (Whose video taken by British scientist is with me). He also disappeared in thin air openly announcing people, who were astonished.
So unless we go to the stage of divines as told above, we cannot experience formless GOD.  If we read Vasista Geetha told to Sri Rama, we will get some knowledge.
There are 13 other worlds with living beings. Two Gandervas was punished to be born on earth, as 2 trees. They were as trees in Sri Krishna Garden. When Sri Krishna went with roller between those trees and knocked them down, the 2 Gandervas arose to their original form and went to Ganderva Lok. We are still to know about these 13 worlds. How is it easy to know the creator of all these 13 worlds? Only with utmost pure conscience, that nothing is ours, no one is ours, we don't belong to this earth, we cannot say a single word of small abuse even to a dog. All sufferings and pleasures are based on our 3 Karmas of the past birth. So we should stop adding fresh karmas in this birth. Craving for adharmic desires (Like having pleasure with wife is dharmic desire with certain terms and conditions- Liking neighbor wife is lust which is wrong desire). Many saints lived with wife and family, but they were always conscience of GOD and it is their bounded duty to live according to sastras said by GOD. Gopies lived with family but they were always conscience of Sri Krishna as their GOD. How many of us want to go on Vaana Prasta? Our desire for children, grandchildren is our drawback in fact. It does not mean to hate them. It means NO attachment when it comes to Dharma. Example: Sri Krishna preaching Vishada Yoga to Arjuna. Arjuna says my Guru, my grandfather etc in battle field. The guru is banned from holding arms in battle, Bishma & others failed to adhere to Dharma in their lives. So they are not your people GOD said in that Yoga. We also have to maintain Dharma at any cost with our own kith & kin. Failing we will be Maya, resulting in death like those. This Maya alone is blocking us from realizing GOD.       
B.Sathyanarayan

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It appers that the questioner has taken a part of the Sloka (8.9, Bg). In full it is achintya roopam. Parama atma is not achintya (horribl etranslation - unthinkable), It is his form Roopam, that cannot be thought of as a fixed shape. When you envisage a tiger, you can see a shape or form that conforms to your imagination of tiger. But with Parama atma, IT is in every bit or element of creation, It is Visvam bhara roopam. Hence you cannot fix a roopam and say It is Parama Atma's Roopam. That is what achinty roopam suggests.
Then the question is how to experience Parama Atma. This is by Anu smarana. Smarana means contemplating. My mother poured her love on me through out her life. She is gone 40 years  back; but I keep on smarana of her for ever and ever. That is not a big deal. "Anu" is prefixed to imply some thing special and even superior. My Samarana of my mother is not great; but recollecting my mother and her service to me and seeing HER in every mother opr woman around is ANUSMARANA. ANU indicates not only perennial but smarana of that entity Parama Atma on seeing everything around you or simply seeing Parama Atma in every element of Universe. I will give you an example of such a persons behaviour.
This man looks  up at the sky. He sees dark blue black clouds with lots of water content. Immediately he asks, "you maids of clouds, however you got the colour of Parama atma (Blue-black)?" and then answers himself, "Yes, I know as you toil for others carrying lot of water for them Vishnu must have embraced your selfless toil and thus you got his colour" - This is by Satha Kopa
SV Krishna

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Even though god is uncognizable by impure mind, Krishna tells Arjuna that he can be meditated upon in various vibhutis (forms).
Once mind is pure after meditating on those vibhutis and serving gau, devtaa  and Brahmins, Krishna would grant us the spiritual vision (dadaami budhi yogam tam...)

regds,
rakesh

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Isha Upanishad bhi dekhiye
Sa pariagaach.....chukkramakaayam.......

a tularam

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Dear [gita-talk] people,

God is not unthinkable. You do not seem to do anything for your God and
that is why you feel this way. Try "thinking divine, 24/7" and you have a
lot to talk positive about God.

Bye! Good Luck!

Notesav 




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सुश्री कृष्णजी समुद्रला! आपने एक अद्भुत concept (तत्त्व) दिया कि परमात्मा तत्त्वत: तत्त्व (concept) है, न कि कोई शरीर। शेताश्वतर उपनिषद् में इसको स्पष्ट किया गया है। 
साधक आपको नमन करता है। 
श्री B Sathyanarayan जी! 
संत जयदेवका चोरोंके प्रति किया गया व्यवहार आज कोई करे तो उसे क्या कहेंगे? 
सिद्धेश्वररकी भाँति कोई पहाड़ीसे सागरमें कूद जाये तो उसे क्या कहेंगे?
आजके समयमें इनकी प्रासंगिकता वैसी नहीं रही जैसी कभी थी। 
सविनय,
साधक
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Hari SharaNam !
The shloka 8/8 says that the Supreme can be attained by [always] meditating on him ( अनुचिन्तयन् ). Similarly, the shloka 8/9 says that the Supreme can be attained by [always] remembering him ( अनुस्मरेत् ). The same shloka (i.e. 8/9) says that his form (i.e. रुपम्) can not be caught completely even by the meditating/contemplating mind (i.e. चित्त)  (अचिन्त्य रुपम् ).  Since the meditation / contemplation (i.e. चिन्तन ) and remembering (i.e. स्मरण)  are saadhanas/efforts to follow (i.e. अनु ) the Supreme/TRUTH though its form can not be caught completely by the meditative mind, these saadhanaas (because of its association with the Supreme) of are also correct.  In other words, there is no contradiction.

May All be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey


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Dear Sadaks,
GOD said in upanashids as Apprameyam. i.e cannot be seen with our sense organs. Annatham- Omnipresent. So think of GOD that he is filled everywhere, and do only good deeds and do not abuse anyone anything, live totally dharmic life. This is contemplating on GOD. Ex: Sant Jaidev saw 2 thieves (who harmed him) as Adithi Devo Bava (as his guests) and gave gold and silver.Tukaram was beaten by a man for NO fault. Tukaram said it is all Vital game. Sideswarar tried to concentrate on Bhagavan Shiva. When NO results, he jumped off a cliff. But Bhagan Shiva caught him falling and raised him to ground.Surrender to unknown became known to Sideswarar and his temple stands as proof in Sholapur.
B.Sathyanarayan
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          Dear Sadhak,
          Yes परमात्मा is unthinkable so you find impossible to meditate on him. But you have your soul (or जीवात्मा) that is अंश of परमात्मा and also not visible from outside. So meditate on the Soul or Divinity within you. The meditation will reach परमात्मा without any special efforts.
         With regards,
         ------Mukund Apte

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Is the questioner referring to 8.9 of Gita.  Kavim Puraanam anusaasitaaram ANoh Aneeyam AnusmaredyaH, Sarvasya daataaram Achintya Roopam. 
Firstly, Parama atma is a concept or Tattva. It has no particular shape or body Hence it can be seen in any body or for those who canbnot see in every particle even in the smallest particle (Anoh aneeya) he cannot be "seen". Because PA is concept or Tattva he can be only thought of or thought of by a versy disciplined Mana. This is the implication of Anusmaredya.
As PA is capable of taking any shape we cannot think of a particular shape or form s his. This is Achintya Roopam. As It is achintya roopam (not unthinkable but un envisagable), It has to be perceived only by disciplined samayama thought or Mana.
Achintya roopa is also reflected in Svetasvatara Upanishat (4.19) Na pratimo asti. THus Upanishat is not in favor of worshipping PA as an Idol or Murti. It is right to say PA is in the Murty, but believing that Murty is PA is wrong
Krish Samudrala
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साधकने जो समझा है : 'वह' अचिन्त्य है अर्थात् मन, बुद्धि आदिसे 'उस' का चिंतन नहीं किया जा सकता। स्वयंसे 'उस' का स्मरण अर्थात् (शरणागत होकर) साथ (सम्मुख) रहना, हो सकता है। 
सविनय,
साधक




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