Wednesday, March 18, 2015

[gita-talk] God vs Demi God

 

Ram Ram,

As par Veda's, We should not to worship demi God.

Now question is ,, Most of the people does bhakti/chanting/bhajans only for Demi God's.
I have never seen any one who was worshiping to Bramh. It seems that Bramh/God is to be known through the Gyaan....& 
All demi God's is to be known by Chanting/Bhakti/Bhajans...

God does nothing,you will always be reaping your own karmas according to your past karmas etc...

But When it comes to Demi God's we have provision for some Kripa/Grace if we do some special pooja or chanting etc...

Does really Demi Gods work ? 

If some one is facing some trouble should he go to temple or start doing chanting etc,,,, or he should move towards Gyaan & understand the Bramh itself & do his karma & fight with the situation.

or in other words How to do bhakti of Nirakkar Bramh or God is known only by Gyaan.... & demi God is only known by Bhakti....

Or How to move forward from Demi God's to God.....

PS: Ready to accept all the criticism of my thought process as I know I am going wrong , But I know there are gr8 souls  in this forum & has the ability to correct me. 

Ram Ram

Amit Gupta

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can you put more light on your below statement? I don't agree that if i do not worship any one I will end up worshipping Asura's...
 
<<All religions who don't worship Brahmins, devta and gau ultimately end up worshipping asuras as there is no direct way to reach god...>>
>>>>>>Worshipping and sangat is same. Things you are with in your thoughts(sangat) are things you are glorifying that's why those are in one's head (the highest pedestal where glorification is done)...Kansa was always thinking of Krishna and hence worshipping him indirectly...if one doesn't think about welfare of Brahmins/saints, devta and gau then he must be thinking of some thing else as mind cant remain empty for humans...this empty mind gets filled by asuras/negative thots...hence if you are not thinking +ive, u r thinking -ive and hence worshipping asuras...Pls note that trinity of Brahmins, devtas and gau cover everything that is +ive thought for mind. ..Out of these also gau alone can cover everything that is +ive in mind...
On your below point: If below is the case then  Demi-God has more importance then God.
No one will move towards par-bramh & will keep worshipping the demi-God's without knowing the essence.

<<There is no direct way to worship the par-brahm, but worshipping Brahmins/sants, devtas(demi-gods) and gau is the only thing one can do.>>
 
Par-Brahm is not something which mind can comprehend. That's impossible..Par-Brahmn can be comprehended by Brahmn alone and not mind....As explained earlier what we worship is what is in mind...Hence we cant worship Par-Brahmn...Mind at the best can worship Brahmins, Devtas and gau...At the worst it can worship Asuras...If still someone wants to worship par-Brahmn with mind, and don't worship Brahmins, Devtaa and Gau, he ends up worshipping Asuras only ....
 
regards,
rakesh


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  • Respected Sadhaks.& Amit Guptaji,

    The GOD HEAD and Paramatma Lord Krishna is the only GOD.  Your equating him to demi Gods like Siva and brahma is not correct as per GITA.   The Caitanya-Caritamrta (Adi 5,142) confirms "ekale isvara krsna ara saba bhrtya: onlly krsna is God, and everyone else is His servant. Everyone is complying with His order.  There  is no one who can deny his order.  Everyone is acting according to his direction, being under his superintendence.  As stated in the Brahma-samhita, He is the cause of all causes.   

    with namaskarams
    S.Vaidyanathan
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  • Pundits say that all the forms of Paramaatma, the forms which Veda/Smriti/Purana/Itihaasa have mentioned should be worshipped. Without their blessing, one can not make any progress. This term demi-Gods is not very clear (to me). Gita says - Yajante satvikan Devan (17.4)
RV

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Ram Ram 

@Vyas N B: Thanks for your explanation. They are quite in-line with my thoughts too.

But still I would like you to provide more on below points.
1) Why Demi-God's exist in case of Hindu dharma? 

Also feel free to scold me ,your scolding has done wonders for me in past.

@Vaidyanathan: I still see Krishna/Shiva/Ram etc as Demi God. 
We can say that they are our personal God but not par-bramh.

@YOGEN Vyas : Agreed.

@sadhak r. mehta: can you put more light on your below statement? I don't agree that if i do not worship any one I will end up worshipping Asura's...

<<All religions who don't worship Brahmins, devta and gau ultimately end up worshipping asuras as there is no direct way to reach god...>>

On your below point: If below is the case then  Demi-God has more importance then God.
No one will move towards par-bramh & will keep worshipping the demi-God's without knowing the essence.

<<There is no direct way to worship the par-brahm, but worshipping Brahmins/sants, devtas(demi-gods) and gau is the only thing one can do.>>

@B.Sathyanarayan:
On your below point:I have a question that If Bhakti has no effect on demi-gods.. That what effects them.

<<<A: Bakthi has NO effect on demi Gods. Bakthi is only for para Bhramam.>>

On your below point: I would say that Karmas could have vanished because of the new good karma's done.

<<A: WRONG. Sadaks read Sri Vittal Baktha Vijayam, as to HOW one`s  karmas are vanishes. Even destined death was changed to many. How? Ask- I shall reply.>>

PS:Forgive me for my unnecessary or irrelevant counter questions.


Ram Ram
Amit Gupta

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I am adding the following with the hope that someone will take this in  the right direction:
Personally, I feel we should not use the word DEMI-GOD. Instead use DEVA or DEVATA. Krishna said in GITA that many worship Devata for immediate benefits ( such as good health, success, wealth, victory, any worldly benefit) and that they will receive that. But all these prayers come to me and I do honor them. Indirectly, HE does suggest to worship the ISHWARA ( In this case Krishna) than individual Devata. 
I think whether you worship Devata or Ishwara or both; it has to do with your own spiritual state in life. At the highest level of such advancement, you will worship Ishwara only. 
I suggest that we use English word God to mean Ishwara. And do not translate Devata as demi God but use Devata word as is.   Western religions do not have the concept or understanding of the existence of Devata and their vitol role. Hence no suitable translation. Demi has a negative connotation.
 Shrinarayan Chandak

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We must be careful in categorizing the medium of worship adopted by people around the world. If there is any thing Demi or full its in my intention not in object outside. India is full of great saints who attained Bhakti by worshiping any Godzilla. Any Bhakti which seeks 'Phal' is Demi worship and worshiping any God without desire is Ishwar Bhakti. One God superior and another inferior is very bad to talk or discuss whereas it's only Satvic or non Satvic worship.
Hari Om,
Raina

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Dear Sadaks, there is ONE more step after Bakthi, which step is fruits of complete Bakthi. Sadaks kindly give your opinion.
B.Sathyanarayan.  Chennai
 

Dear SatyaNarayanaji,
IMHO, Anand/bliss is the final goal of all souls/jeevas...
Also fruit of Bhakti given by god is his divya-saamipya and his divya-darshan like was given to Arjuna, the rasa relished by Gopis, the luv felt by maa yashoda and nand Maharaja for bal Krishna, the protection felt by son pradyuman from father Krishna, the pride felt by guru sandipani for his disciple...etc...and so many other such relations that Krishna has with his bhaktas...Krishna showers not one but infinite number of fruits of Bhakti...
regds,
r.mehta

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  • There is no "God" or "Demi God" in Hindu Dharma. There are many Devatas. Each Hindu has their Ishta Devata and it is their "all-in-all;" but to make THE ONE and every other Devata is "less than," is to practice erroneous fundamentalism.
CY
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Dear ALL,
                   Namaskar!

God, Demi Gods or, anything else relatives, friends, objects, planets in fact whole Universe(s)  are second and third person identities. The only first person identity is the REAL YOU in you WHICH IS EVEN BEYOND YOUR OWN MIND & CONSCIOUSNESS. YOU AS THE ULTIMATE REALITY CAN BE NAMED AS GOD or, reverse as DOG won't aler the reality!

In view of above YOGEN Vyas Ji has very correctly said:                                  
We have to reach to a stage to realize Bhrama ie our own self, atma.    

I may slightly modify this aove statement as:   

We have to realize what we call ourself as WE is Bhrama Only. Further, we are not to reach or, go anywhere but, remain as WE. No sooner WE try to understand what WE ARE, we come into duality form and go away from ABSOLUTE REALITY of ONENESS which, may be given any name!
 Love for ALL

(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)
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श्री YOGEN VYAS जी!
अपने कथनमें प्रयुक्त शब्द We तथा we किसके लिये प्रयुक्त किया है,
समझाइयेगा। 
सविनय,
साधक 

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  • Ram Ram,
     
    Q: As par Veda's, We should not to worship demi God.
    A: Worship of demi gods is for getting benefits in life-NOT Mukthi. We can note in many scripts Indra was worshiped, AGNI was worshiped etc. There are 33 crore demi gods. Our tongue has got demi, our nose has demi god, our life span Yama demi  god so on. Our whole prakurthi is designed so. If one prays a stone as Bhraman (Paramathuma), God appears so says in the form one worships says Geetha.
     
    Q: Most of the people does bhakti/chanting/bhajans only for Demi God's.
    I have never seen any one who was worshiping to Bramh. It seems that Bramh/God is to be known through the Gyaan..& All demi God's is to be known by Chanting/Bhakti/Bhajans...
     
    A: Bakthi has NO effect on demi Gods. Bakthi is only for para Bhramam. Pushpam, Palam, Thoyam, etc yome Bakthi says Geetha. You give a flower, leaf, water etc without heart felt unconditional love (Nis Kama Prema Bakthi) to GOD, God takes it. There was a saint (Name I don't remember right now) among 63 Bhagavan Shiva Bakthas, he stoned Bhagavan Shiva Lingam, But stones reached GOD as flowers. If one wants details I can furnish. King Tondaman gave Golden lotus to GOD but a potter gave mud made lotus flower. God took mud flower. Essence is that GOD needs your (Nis Kama Prema Bakthi)  nothing else. Another example of Mother Sathiya Bama gave tons of Gold as offering for Sri Krishna in an auction Yagna, but Mother Rukmani gave a Tulasi leaf. Mother Rukmani won Sri Krishna in auction.
      
    Q; God does nothing. ,you will always be reaping your own karmas according to your past karmas etc...
     
    A: WRONG. Sadaks read Sri Vittal Baktha Vijayam, as to HOW one`s  karmas are vanishes. Even destined death was changed to many. How? Ask- I shall reply.
     
    Q: Does really Demi Gods work ? 
    A: Kumbakarna did Tapas. When 4 headed Bharama appeared he wanted to ask Indra post. Because Kumbakarna was in company of Ravana, Sri Vishnu orders Mother Saraswathi to twist Kumbakar tounge, thought etc, by which Kumbakarna asked, "Nidra Patta" (undisturbed sleep) instead of Indra Patta. Similarly if one is looked over by GOD, even wrongly asked boon was given in right way. A great scientist said, "thank YOU OH GOD for not giving all that asked".
     
    Q: If some one is facing some trouble should he go to temple or start doing chanting etc,,,, or he should move towards Gyaan & understand the Bramh itself & do his karma& fight with the situation.
     
    A: The troubles come due to past, present bad Karmas. Only by PRAYACHIT as said in PRAYACHIT DHARMA script one has to do.
     
    Q; in other words How to do bhakti of Nirakkar Bramh or God is known only by Gyaan.... & demi God is only known by Bhakti....
     
    A: Bhramam is by ITSELF Nirankkar. No need to add adjective.
     
    Dear Sadaks, there is ONE more step after Bakthi, which step is fruits of complete Bakthi. Sadaks kindly give your opinion.
    B.Sathyanarayan.  Chennai
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  • Dear Sir,
    In my humble opinion, Demi god worship is still better than worshipping asuras for fulfilling desires (Sakaam karma).
    Demi gods: At gross level, everything that purifies environment is deva (demi-god).  Imagine all things you use to worship in temple...gau gobar(Lakshmi), gau mootra(Ganga), Fresh air(vayu dev), water, gau milk, fruits, flowers etc...all these things would fulfill one's desires in all aspects...
    Asuras: At gross level, everything that worsen the environment. Petrol, diesel, wireless, all kind of western technology including this internet which we are using now to exchange ideas...None of these things would leave environment better than it was before use of these technologies
    Unfortunately we have to use both asuras and demi gods in our daily acts...So at gross level we end up worshipping both...
    Similarly at subtle level we have negative thoughts (asuras) and suvichars including the thought of nishkama karma  (Demi gods).
     
    There is no direct way to worship the par-brahm, but worshipping Brahmins/sants, devtas(demi-gods) and gau is the only thing one can do...With this one can maximize his sato-guna & bhakti...
    If one gets picked by God or not is entirely upto God's will.
     
    Any amount of the effort to reach god directly is useless and only creates pride and one start worshipping asuras implicitly... Only thing one can do is increase satoguna (worship Brahmins, deva, gau)..initially one starts with kaam bhaava and slowly start worshipping nishkaam bhaav...
     
    All religions who don't worship Brahmins, devta and gau ultimately end up worshipping asuras as there is no direct way to reach god...
     
    regds,
    sadhak r. mehta

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As far as I know worshipping demi gods mean 1) Following rituals with an intent to commit harm to others. 2) at another level, going after pleasures is literally against environment. Worships in this regards also worshipping demi gods.
Pranam
veena  

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Hari Om

Vedas don't tell you not to worship Demi -Gods ! Where do they tell so ? But Gita tells you that those who worship Demi-gods, they get Demi-gods ( what Demi gods offer you) and those who worship Supreme Lord , they get Supreme Lord. 

First understand the difference between Supreme Lord and Demi-gods. Supreme Lord is akin to the owner of the Corporate Empire, and the Demi-gods are akin to the managers. They are administrators of the empire and like any officers, they grant you favours in return of your service to them. They can grant you favours only in accordance with over all guidelines , which have been fixed by the Supreme Lord, who is the ultimate superintendent, owner and Incharge of the entire Creation. Clear ? 

Your Q is - Do Demi-gods really work ? Answer is - Yes ! But you go to them for what ? For petty worldly pleasures ! You get petty worldly things, fulfillment of your desires, as per provisions / rules/ regulations made. What you get is perishable and hence Gita calls such exercise to be futile and addresses such worshipers as " short sighted " / unwise. 

Your statement that  "God does nothing, you will always be reaping your own karmas according to your past karmas etc..." , may be true with reference to your reaping the fruits of your own karma but is not true when you say - " God does nothing". If He does not do, then who does and why ? God is the supreme power and force behind the entire Creation. Under His superintendence and control , the entire Creation including Nature , Demi-gods etc operate. 

Your next Q is - "Someone facing some trouble ...." - now what is that trouble ? You yourself said that one has to reap the fruits of one's own karma - where then remains the scope for any help except that you should face the situation ( fight with the situation - in your words). Yes - there are provisions in the Vedas for SAKAAM KARMA ( Karmas done with a worldly motive) , there are chantings for removal of adversities etc but there you do the karma in an orderly , prescribed manner and any error there may get you reverse results too ( instead of getting favors from Demi-gods, you may end up annoying them also ) !! 

So what do I convey as answer ? Face the situation with equanimity and turn towards the Supreme Lord, rather than worshipping Demi-gods. There is nothing wrong , however, in worshipping Demi-gods without any worldly motive as in that case that worship is deemed to be worship of Supreme Lord only. But going to Demi-gods for fulfillment of worldly pleasures ( including for heaven etc) is futile, short sighted, foolish and wasting effort. 

You are obviously not very clear regarding " Gyaan " , " Bhakti " etc. Your statement that Demi-gods are known by Bhakti and Supreme Lord ( you call Him as " Brahma" ) is known by " Gyaan " is not true. You should read Gita to understand what is Gyaan, what is Bhakti etc. What you get by Gyaan , you get the same thing by Karma too. By Bhakti you get something more also. Your understanding of the term Bhakti is not the understanding of Gita. You said worshipping Demi- gods is Bhakti, but that is not so. Worshipping Demi-gods for some favour or removal of adversities is not Bhakti, it is SAKAAM KARMA only. Bhakti is something different. Your understanding of the term Gyaan is also not correct. Your understanding that you get Brahma by Gyaan only is also not correct. Again , you need to know what is Nirakar, Sakar, Sagun, Nirgun and what is the difference between the path of Gyaan Yoga, Karma Yoga and Bhakti Yoga. Hence read Gita - Sadhak Sanjeevani Treatise on Gita, by Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj- regularly. 

I hope above answers your last Q too - how to move from Demi-gods to God. 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 


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It seems that in Gita Lord Krishna had suggested that even if the ignorant worships, with complete devotion without doubt and love, any demi-god or even anything that the ignorant considers as God, God receives and accepts that worship. There is nothing in this Universe that is not God. He is all pervasive and in everything. Whatever one worships as God, is equally good if such worship is with complete devotion, belief, faith and sincerity. One day or the other, the devotee will realize that God worship is by God's reflection nothing but  offering God's gifts in the form of illusive reflection to God in order to get out of the illusion of egoistic separate identity and merge in God, the non-dual Real.
Basudeb Sen

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Very interesting question Amit...  and you have answered it yourself more or less...

It is a great game of life...very amazing life... Depending on what one thinks, believes in, one start getting the proofs that one is right... Everything you start believing in, starts working for you... In a way, one decides his life himself....

What is gyan?  Gyan consists of universal rules of life, knowledge about Self, God, and rest of the world...
Most who search/seek God have discovered the universal principles/rules of life, and understood Self... 
We all able to feel the presence of God.. 

Beyond that do we really know who God is, who we are, what is the origin of this world, where we go from here... are questions, some people understand through individual experience only, and therefore answers and descriptions are different...  we need to keep exploring....

Sushil

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 I feel the Godhead Lord Krishna is beyond any religion.  He is 100%
 soul personified human form  because I could see him in anything and
 every thing.  Being soul personified he uses the "I" very often when he
 speaks to the universal devotee, the great Arjuna.  By virtue of his
 personified soulness he appears everywhere when  krishna conscious
 devotees want to see him.

 It is with the arrival of demigods that all these different relegions have come up.

 The arrival of demigods is the cause of people pursuing frutive benefits
 in their life instead of spiritualism.  To make improvement in their
 material life they developed all these demigods.
with namaskarams
 S.Vaidyanathan

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  • Ram Ram, 
    Taking forward your thought process:
    I believe that Bhakti/Satsanga/Rituals etc are the first step. 
    We have to begin some where. 
    It is not our destination. 
    We have to reach to a stage to realize Bhrama ie our own self, atma. 
    Once we realize this only truth (which takes time) then we will be above good and bad, Sukh and Dukh etc then we may not do chanting etc to solve any so called problem etc. 
    Ram Ram
    YOGEN Vyas 
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  • Not only is this sectarian non-sense but also "God" "god" has nothing to do with Hindu Dharma.
This is non-sense. One, there is no "God" in Hindu Dharma. To make any one Deity the one for all and the rest less than is delusional.




CY



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बंधुवर, 
यह demi god किसे कहा है? स्पष्ट कीजियेगा। 
demi god का हिन्दी भाषामें शब्द-रूप क्या है?
सविनय,
साधक 



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Shree Hari  
Ram Ram  

You may gain some insights from previous gita-talk discussions

Reveal the Truth about god-goddesses and the 84 lac wombs

 

how Demi Gods have power of see, when Gita states only Krishna has such powers?


Gita Talk Moderators,  


Ram Ram  
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HINDI:          www.swamiramsukhdasji.org




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