Wednesday, July 30, 2014

[gita-talk] Would like to Understand "The All Pervading" and "Ansh" and its Implications

 

Shree Hari 

Per questioner's request,  we are bringing closure to this post.  Thank you all.   

Gita Talk Moderators,   Ram Ram  

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Would like to Understand 

Two words "Sarvavyaapi"  (All pervasive) and "Ansh"  (ray of consciousness,  fraction of whole) and its implications.  
Question :   Is All pervasive only God,  or is some other also all pervasive. 
Question - Does "Ansh" (fraction) means one who has a separate existence from the "anshi"  (whole) ?  
Question :  Does "jeev" (embodied soul,  have an independent existence apart from the all pervading Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma)?  
Swamiji says - Besides the one Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma),  nothing whatsoever has been born !  
Question -  Then is "jeev"  (embodied soul),  an exception to this talk ?  

IN HINDI 
समझना है
दो शब्दों ''सर्वव्यापी'' और ''अंश'' के निहितार्थ समझने हैं। 
प्रश्न है : सर्वव्यापी केवल परमात्मा है या कोई दूसरा भी सर्वव्यापी है?
अंश का अर्थ अंशीसे अलग अस्तित्व होना है क्या? 
प्रश्न है : क्या जीवका सर्वव्यापी परमात्मासे अलग अस्तित्व होता है?
स्वामीजीने कहा है : एक परमात्माके सिवाय कोई चीज कभी पैदा हुई ही नहीं!
प्रश्न है : फिर जीव क्या इस कथनका अपवाद है?

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धन्यवाद बड़े भैया, परमात्मासे प्रार्थना है कि समयपर आपका मार्गदर्शन मिलता रहे।
इसी तरहके सटीक (दो टूक) उत्तरके लिये तरस रहा था प्रश्नकर्ता।  
श्री समन्वयक गीता-वार्ता इस सूत्रका समापन करनेकी कृपा करें। 
सविनय,
साधक 

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Hari Om

Q is also - Is all pervasive only God or is other also pervasive ?

Ans- The soul in you being fraction ( ANSHA) of God has the trait of being all pervasive. Hence every Jeeva in its basic form, SARVA-VYAAPI. This trait does not form part of your direct experience, because you accept that you are confined to your body. When you consider your body to be "me and/or mine" , you limit yourself, you confine yourself. Hence you experience centralised state , not universal state. 

 Some very minor, very limited, very symbolic experience of SARVA-vyapakata is experienced by you in MANO-RAJYAS / MANORATHAS e.g. If you had been to say Haridwaar once, and now you are sitting say in Mumbai, but when you think of Haridwaar, the ghats, stairs, Ganges etc come into your mind. So you have reached Haridwar mentally sitting at Mumbai. It is extremely limited example in relation to your all pervasiveness. In dream state also, you visit distant places while sleeping else where. 

Your real SARVA VYAAPKTA comes into experience , when you " ACCEPT" ( not "learn or merely know" ) , your separateness from body. 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 

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Two words "Sarvavyaapi" and "Ansh" apply to unreal (ASAT, illusory) domain of existence. It appears that "ansh" has separate existence. "Ansh" appears to be localized in space. Gita states that "ansh" or soul is sarva-gatah which means all pervading. Ansh is part of Parmatma and has same qualities as Paramatma. This is said to negate the illusion of ASAT (temporariness, incompleteness, unhappiness, localized experience, individuality etc). All those experiences of ASAT are negated by statements like self is eternal, self is purnah, self is full of anand, self is sarva-gatah etc. Those statements are made in context of illusory ASAT domain and explains SAT real domain.

In the SAT (real) existence, only Vasudeva exists. These is no "ansh" from SAT domain but only Vasuseva.

Question :   Is All pervasive only God,  or is some other also all pervasive. 

Gita states that atma is sarva-gatah i.e. all pervasive. Due to illusion, we don't experience it just like we don't experience eternity but experience death.

Question - Does "Ansh" (fraction) meansone who has a separate existence from the "anshi"  (whole) ?  


Question :  Does "jeev" (embodied soul,  have an independent existence apart from the all pervading Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma)?  

"Jeev" only exists in ASAT (illusory) domain. Embodied soul refers to illusion of accepting self as body. In this illusion, it appears that self (embodied soul) has separate existence. But truth is that soul can never become body. Independent existence is illusory. Only Vasudeva exists! When there is no other existence, you question does not apply.

Swamiji says - Besides the one Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma),  nothing whatsoever has been born !  
Question -  Then is "jeev"  (embodied soul),  an exception to this talk ?  

Actually, nothing is born. Even Paramatma is also not born. You need to understand Swamiji's statement in proper context. Real always exists and unreal never existed. "Jeev" exists in illusory domain. It appears that "jeev" is born and dies. But Swamiji is clear in Gita 2/16 that unreal has no existence. So, jeev has no existence and therefore, jeev is never born from SAT domain. In ASAT domain, it appears that it is born. Please go deeper into this statement of Swamiji in Gita 2/16 -

"The unreal has no existence-this is true and the real never ceases to be-this is also true. It is the duty of a striver to accept this truth. A striver may have this realization or not, he has to accept this fact."

G A Mittal

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Hari Om

Question - Does "Ansh" (fraction) meansone who has a separate existence from the "anshi"  (whole) ?  
Ans: No ! The fraction does not have separate existence "actually". But the fraction "assumes" that it has a separate existence and therefore gets separated from "whole" and therefore suffers. (Experiences separateness). Somebody is not X but has capability to presume himself as X or Y or Z and he presumes ( accepts) and hence experience follows. 

Question :  Does "jeev" (embodied soul,  have an independent existence apart from the all pervading Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma)?  
Ans: No ! Not actually. But he "presumes" ( accepts) that he has an independent existence and therefore experiences independent existence.
Swamiji says - Besides the one Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma),  nothing whatsoever has been born !  
Ans: Swamiji is always perfect. There is only one existence and that is of Paramatma. Nothing else exists "actually". 
Question -  Then is "jeev"  (embodied soul),  an exception to this talk ?  
Ans: No ! Due to wrong acceptance , there is experience of separateness. Otherwise, there is only one Paramatma - VASUDEV SARVAM. It is faulty "acceptance" and nothing else.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 
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श्री स्वामी कृष्णानंद 
कथन it is like a cotton cloth pervades with all water when it becomes wet,
like the sugar dissolved in milk, goes side by side
god bless you
पूछे गये प्रश्नोंके उत्तर नहीं हैं। 
श्री 
 Krishna Samudrala
आप सूर्य किरणोंको सूर्यसे अलग करके कैसे देख सकते हैं? यदि समस्त किरणोंको अलग कर दिया जाय तो बचा ही क्या? सूर्यमें जो ऊष्मा है, सूर्यमें जो प्रकाश है वह सबका सब केवल विद्युत चुम्बकीय विकिरण है। उस विकिरणका पुंज ही सूर्य कहलाता है। नहीं तो बता दीजिये कि सूर्य किरण और सूर्य किस बिंदु पर अलग हैं?
श्री जयंतीलाल शाह 
कथन 
 Ansh is a part of the whole caught due to Maya in space and time समझ आया। 
श्री Jay N 
कथन 
 
There can't be two sarva-vyApIs समझ आया। 
श्री BS 
काश आपके (अंग्रेजीमें लिखे) कथन समझ आते। जब शुरुमें केवल एक (उसे कुछ भी नाम दीजिये) ही था [ऐसा उपनिषद् कहते हैं, क्या आप नहीं कहते?] तो यह जीव, जगत, ब्रह्माण्ड, सृष्टि, यह लोक, वह लोक, विष्णु, ब्रह्मा, महेश, व्यास आदि कहाँसे आये? जहाँसे आये, उसका नाम-पता और थोड़ा वर्णन भी बताइयेगा। 
सविनय,
साधक 

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it is like a cotton cloth pervades with all water when it becomes wet,
like the sugar dissolved in milk, goes side by side
god bless you
swamiji (Swami Krishnanand)
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God is everywhere we should develop inner eye to see him,
madhawacharya 300 years back used to salute each and every plant, tree
god bless you
swamiji (Swami Krishnanand)

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Fellow learner,
All pervasive in English means that which pervades all over. Sarva Vyaapi is the one who spreds everywhere. The two have subtle difference. Sarva Vyaaptitava or the capaxcity to become sarva Vyaapi is a charcteristic of Parama Atma (Perhaps in your parlance God). The word VishNu literally means "the one who is Sarva Vyaapi" (Visvam VishNuH)> Parama atma's potential is also spread all over the universe; But potential is different from the one who possesses that potential. Thus Sarva VyaAptiva, though is an attribute of Parama Atma it is by itself not Paramaatma.
Ansh (correct is AMSa) is a ray and not a fraction of the whole. Ray emanates from the source and is different from the source. Sun's ray is not Sun. Mama Eva AMSo jeeva bhootaH sanaatana etc imply that all the beings including Jada and Ajada etc are the net resultant of a ray of mine. It does in no way conveys that all the beings are part of Parama Atma. A ray after emanating from the source becomes another entity other than the source. PLease refer to 10.42 of Bhagavat Gita.
Jeeva (not Jeev) is an Atma entrapped in a physical body. That is right. As we observed in the llast para, Jeev is not a Part of PA. Contributing to th etheory that Param aAtma subdued by nescience (Adnyaaana) becomes Atma is untenable as Parama Atma is Dnyaana and hence cannot be devoured by ignorance. Hence, Jeeva has its own existence. By MokSha or Mukti or release one should understand a state in which the Jeeva recognizes that it is not the body of Prakriti but is far superior to Prakriti and hence should not be bound  and affected by Prakriti originating Sukhs and Duhkha. and its sole existence is to be liege of ParamaAtma.
Hope I could clear your doubt. thank you for giving me this opportunity
Krishna   Samudrala

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Ansh is a part of the whole caught due to Maya in space and time. As the grip of Maya decreases by practicing Bhagwad Geeta and reaching a point of 'Karishye Vachanam Tava', Ansh because it has same properties as Sarvansh gets merged into eternal like a drop of pure water mixes with large quantity of water of a pure lake. Here consciousness expands gradually to touch more and more persons with instrument of Unconditioned love as depicted in Shrimad Bhagwat. Krishna consciousness is nothing but expanded consciousness beyond space and time.
Jayantilal Shah

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Dear All,

Sri VedavyAsa has written specifically amshAdhikaraNa in the brahma-sootras.

It is incorrect to translate ansh as fraction.     WHy ?  because fractions do add up to make the whole.

No where in the Veda/geetA/sootras  it says  "God is actually a totality of all humans"   that is why  amsh is not fraction.

"atO amshatvamuddishTam bhEdAbhEdou na mukhyataha"

vedAnta  essentially is what is taught by Sri VedavyAsa.  

THere can't be two sarva-vyApIs.   "vishLru vyAptou"  -  by definition   Veda calls that principle as VishNu.  


Regards,
Jay N.

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Ans: From Upnashids & Vivekachudamani. Only GOD said to be Appremeyam (cannot be seen), Aroopam (without form), Aksharam (sound) Niskaranam (Karma not binding) etc. On earth in prakurthi, Maya also all pervasive.
Question - Does "Ansh" (fraction) means one who has a separate existence from the "anshi"  (whole) ?  
Ans: From Sastras & scripts- Jeeva has separate existence from Para Athuma until realization.
Swamiji says - Besides the one Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma),  nothing whatsoever has been born !  
Question -  Then is "jeev"  (embodied soul),  an exception to this talk ?
Ans: From Sri Vishnu Puran: Sri Krishna and Balarama was born from the 2 hairs of Sri Vishnu.  
 B.S
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