Sunday, May 25, 2014

[gita-talk] Is Jeev, Soul Separate from the All Pervading Paramatma?

 

In recent Gita Talk discussion -   Advaita or Monism still leaves some doubts. 

But still, there some differences which are irreconcilable or insurmountable for Self.
Is the Soul and Jeev one ?   If not, then are they two apart (different) from Paramatma?  If apart, then Paramatma is not all pervading,  if Paramatma is perfectly present in soul and jeev, then how the three can be "bhinna" (diverse and separable)?   
Where it has been said "Mamaivaansho jeevaloke"  there where it has been said in Gita (please identify the shloka) where "ansh" has been separated?   and "ansh" is not complete and filled with Paramatma.  Please identify the shloka.  

Is the all pervasive Paramatma divisible?  Can He be divisible?   In which scripture is it said so?   
One can only divide that thing which is not all pervasive.   Every "ansh"  of Paramatma (from perspective of seeing)  if it is not pervaded by Paramatma, then how can Paramatma be all pervasive?  

Humbly,   
Sadhak 


क्या soul और जीव एक हैं? यदि नहीं तो क्या दोनों परमात्मासे भिन्न हैं? यदि भिन्न हैं, तो परमात्मा सर्वव्यापी नहीं है क्योंकि soul और जीव उससे परिपूर्ण नहीं हैं। यदि परमात्मा soul और जीव, दोनोंमें परिपूर्ण है, तो तीनों भिन्न कैसे होंगे?
जहाँ कहा गया,''ममैवांशो जीवलोके'' वहाँ (गीतामें) कहाँ कहा गया है (कृपया श्लोक बतायें) कि ''अंश'' अलग किया गया है? और अंश परमात्मासे परिपूर्ण नहीं है? कृपया श्लोक अवश्य बतायें। 
सर्वव्यापी परमात्मा क्या विभाज्य है? क्या सर्वव्यापी परमात्मा विभाज्य हो सकता है? यह किस Scripture में बताया है?
विभाजन तो उसीका किया जा सकता है जो सर्वव्यापी नहीं हो। 
सर्वव्यापी परमात्माका प्रत्येक अंश (देखनेकी दृष्टिसे) परमात्मासे परिपूर्ण नहीं हो तो परमात्मा सर्वव्यापी ही कहाँ रहा?
सविनय,
साधक 

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My question is -- 

Are "atma" and "paramatma" one or different?


Regards,
Murari Das


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Excellent observation to mediate and question to meditate upon!!!

Thanks.
Naga Narayana.

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Parama Atma is ominipresent or all pervasive. everything including cEta, jada and ajada are parts or attributes of Parama Aatma. Just as your little finger and the nail on it are parts of your body so are Atma (soul or Jeev, as you say) are parts of Parama Atma. Your little finger is yours but is it You? Similarly, all Atmas are His but none of them can be his. Your children have some features of yours; but they cannot be you. Another example or DriShTaanta is: As for fish it is pervaded by water, fish is born in water, grows in it and dies in it and merges with water. But can we say that fish is water?
Amsha means ray which carries energy or chetana (from the source of light or heat etc.) Mama Eva amsho jeeva bhootaH sanaaatana ha sto be properly assimilated. The energy that is required for the huge work of creation of beings is drawn through a ray emanating from the single source that Parama Atma is. This never wasmeant to convey that Atma and Parama Atma are the same or any such fantasy as in Advaita. Simple logic is how the all powerful Parama atma can be subjugated to avidya or adnyaana and take the forms of Atmas?
sv krishna  
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|| Shree Swami Samarth ||

Dear Sadhak,

1. The Jeev itself is soul and there is no difference in Soul & Jeev. 

Now, see how the Soul or Jeev is ansh of Paramatma. Paramatma is all pervading. It iis present in everybody's heart along with Jeev (Geeta 15.15). (Some Acharyas say Soul is Paramatma only & because of illusion or Maya, it does not realizes its original form while others say existence of Soul is there along with Paramatma seperately but qualitatively both are Sat-Chid-Anand swarup). 

Jeev is ansha of Paramatma so qualitatively there is no difference in them, ex. Water is water in vapour or ice state or the sparks of fire are not different than fire. So Jeev is not different from Paramatma. (In absolute state Soul/Jeev is Brahma & Paramatma is also Brahma but with having Shakti)


२. "Where it has been said "Mamaivaansho jeevaloke"  there where it has been said in Gita" - 
In Bhagavad Geeta 15th Chapter 7th Shloka - 
ममैव अंशो जीवलोके जीवभुत सनातनः।
मनः षष्ठानी ईन्द्रियाणि प्रकृतिस्थानि कर्षती ॥ भ. गीता १५.७


३. Is the all pervasive Paramatma divisible?  Can He be divisible?   In which scripture is it said so? One can only divide that thing which is not all pervasive.   Every "ansh"  of Paramatma (from perspective of seeing)  if it is not pervaded by Paramatma, then how can Paramatma be all pervasive?  

Paramatma is not divisible. Ekam, anantam Brahmam.... 
पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदम् पूर्णात् पूर्ण मुदच्यते।
पूर्णस्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥

All Upanishads & scriptures say that Brahma / Paramatma is all pervading, omniscient, omnipotent. Paramatma is not divisible. As said earlier, Jeev is ansha of Paramatma, so it is pervaded by Paramatma only. Paramatma is not conceivable through senses. That is why we can not completely understand all qualities just by our limited senses or understanding. Anantam can not be descibed with Saant words.


Love,
Nishikant Pathak

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HINDI
हरि ओम

सर्वप्रथम तो यह नोट करें कि जैसे स्कूल या कोलेज में पढ़ाई होती है और जैसे वहाँ कि पढ़ाई एक बुद्धि का विषय होता है, वैसे यह आध्यात्मिक विद्या, ब्रह्म इत्यादि कोई बुद्धि का विषय नहीं है ! स्वयं को स्वयं के द्वारा ही समझा और जाना जा सकता है, बुद्धि और बुद्धि के विकार तर्क के द्वारा नहीं । आप तर्क बहुत ज़्यादा करते हैं !  अगर आप गंभीर व्यक्ति हैं, तो शान्ति से बात को समझने का प्रयत्न करें । यहाँ कोई छिछोरेपन से समझ नहीं सकता । 

आपका पहला प्रश्न हैं - क्या soul और जीव एक हैं ! आपका एकता का क्या अर्थ समझते हैं ?  जीव में चेतन अंश भी है और जड़ अंश भी हैं ! जिसे आप आत्मा कहते हैं, वह चेतन अंश है । जब यह आत्मा , अपने स्वीकार या अस्वीकार करने की एकमात्र योग्यता को प्रयोग करके, जड़ शरीर-संसार से तादात्म्य कर लेता है, तो इसकी " जीव" संज्ञा हो जाती है । " अहम्" जीवात्मा का द्योतक हैं । इसमें एक चेतन अंश है ( आत्मा) और एक जड़ अंश है । अगर " अहम् " न हो, अर्थात् शरीर- संसार के साथ तादात्म्य न हो, तो जीव संज्ञा नहीं रहती, शुद्ध ब्रह्म रह जाता है , जिसे आप "आत्मा " शब्द से समझते हैं । जड़ और चेतन के मिलन को ही " अहम्" , " चिज्जड़ग्रन्थि " , "जीव", "जीवात्मा" आदि कहा जाता है । 

आपका स्वरचित, विचित्र argument कि परमात्मा फिर सर्वव्यापी कैसे हैं, ....ये बात ही नहीं उठती जब आप को इस बात का ज्ञान होता है कि जीव में चेतन अंश भी रहता है । जैसा उपर बताया - जीव कहो या अहम् कहो या चिज्जड़ग्रन्थि कहो, चेतन अंश तो उसमें रहेगा ही, जब चेतन अंश रहेगा तो आपके प्रिय परमात्मा की सर्वव्यापकता रह गई ना ! आप चिन्ता न करें, आपके परमात्मा की सर्वव्यापकता कहीं भी भंग नहीं होती । जो कुछ तोड़फोड़ होती है, वह आपकी बुद्धि में ही होती है, विभाजन, विभाजित , विभाज्य ये सब बुद्धि के तर्क मात्र हैं, उससे परे नहीं ! जीव, जगदीश, यहाँ तक की मूल प्रकृति , ये सब बुद्धि से परे हैं, बुद्धि की परिधि में नहीं आते । प्रकृति भी नहीं आती तो परमेश्वर और उसका अंश जीव कैसे आयेगा ? इसलिये बुद्धि को कम प्रयोग में लायें, यह बदलती है, मित्र ! बदलने वाली चीज़ से, न बदलने वाले स्वयं को समझने का प्रयास न करें । विवेक का प्रयोग करें, विश्वास का प्रयोग करें ! 

जय श्री कृष्णा

व्यास एन बी 

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Dear Sadaks,
1) The water bubble contains air. The same air is also outside bubble. But to eyes it appears as bubble. So the Jeeva leaves the body and another bubble (rebirth) until NO vasanas. 2) If paramathuma wants to create, HE needs only a seed. But if human wants to make anything, he needs more quantity of raw material the his final product with wastage. This understanding alone can relieve one from rebirth. A nice message from Bible. Only Christ said on cross that, "Oh Father (Paramathuma) in heaven forgive those who did this to me". So Christ had NO atom of ego, vengeance, Mamakaram (mine & my body) etc, which gave him Austral body on 3rd day of his death, Smallest harm, disgrace or harm done to me, I first think, what my friend or relative done is nothing compared to Christ or Jada Bharatha. When we have slightest Ego, desire to reciprocate, hatred etc we are being born as bubbles. In fact I once requested this site Moderator, to allow me to make like minded people to form a group to learn from vast collection of mine in video and audio on our Hindu scripts. But that was NOT allowed, because it is MY- moderator site. This mine-ness only.is big block in spiritual progress. 
B.S.    . 

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Ram Ram,

This question has been asked many times by seekers in different formats.

Vyas N B ji has answered in the past but even though some doubts are still there.

I would request Vyas ji to explain this once again for the benifit of all Sadhaks VERY BRIEFLY

Jeev apni alag satta hi maanta hai maya ke prabhav se...Par jeev us mai fasa kaise ye prashn kai sadjko ka hai.
Drista Satya hai Drashya Asatya hai (Yog Vasisth), is vichaar se jo discussion hum  yaha kar rahe hai vo bhi asatya hai.

Samasya kya hai apne aapko Jeev man lena ?,mana ki kisi sadhka ne maan liya ki vo aatma hi hai or ye sab jo chal raha hai vo sab sapna hai. Mana ki sadhak ne sukhi/dukhi hona bhi chod diya or paristhiti anusaar karm karne laga paridaam ki chinta kiye bina..
Aise sadhak ke liya baaki kya bacha..?

Kya mukti paakar sadhak dubara is maya jaal mai nahi fasega? Nahi fasega to ku nahi fasega. Kabhi to pahli baar fasa hoga tabhi jeev astitav mai aya. to dubara bhi aa sakta hai.

Amit
Ram Ram
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