Sunday, May 18, 2014

[gita-talk] How Advaita or Monism Holds Good?

 


Shree hari 

We bring closure to this topic.   

Many postings here were very lengthy.   Kindly BE BRIEF next time.  

Thank you all !  
Gita talk Moderators,   Ram Ram  

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Respected Moderator,

Thank you for bringing up the forum once again.  Sudden stoppage of this association disturbed me a lot.  Thank you once again for coming back with renewed strength.

Coming back to the topic that i have mentioned it is clearly stated in the BHAGAVAD GITA AS IT IS that the size of the living soul is equated to atomic soul.  The Supreme soul is infinite, and the atomic soul is infinitesimal.  Therefore, the infinitesimal soul , being unchangeable. can never become equal to   the infinite Soul. or the supreme personality of Godhead, This concept is repeated in the Vedas in different ways just confirm the stability of conception of the soul.  Then how this Advida,monism and Mayavadi theory holds good against this soul concept.
I seek Sadhaks advice on this.

with namaskarams 
s.Vaidyanathan

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Advaita-vad and mayavad are two different ideas.

Advaita-vad: Only one Supreme reality exists. Nothing else exists independent of that entity.
Maya-vad: The one supreme reality that exists is devoid of any attributes. Any attribute of that entity that we talk or think about (including His form, lilas, etc.) is a product of maya.

Advaitavad is correct because only one entity - God exists. The jivatmas are His amsha (parts) and the material creation is His activity. Nothing exists independent of Him. An offshoot of advaita-vad is the theory that the jivatma is exactly the same as paramatma. This idea is, however, false because the jiva is subject to maya. If the jiva and paramatma were the same, it would mean that paramatma is under the influence of maya - which is ridiculous. The jiva, even in the liberated state, remains different from God.

Mayavad is basically a false theory. It was propounded by Adi Shankaracharya deliberately to subdue the Budhhists who were prevalent at that time all over India. Rise of Buddhism had led to the Vedic culture being lost. By subduing them Adi Shankaracharya was able to re-establish the authority of the Vedas, Puranas and the other shastras. Later other acharyas came one by one and on the basis of the Vedas, Puranas and other scriptures they established the Supreme truth gradually in more and more refined manner.

-Japesh

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Hari Om

Thanks, Sadhak Japesh for some insights on the subject. 

You are right. Mayavaad can not be said to be a true theory, whatever may be the reasons for Sankaracharyaji ! In Mayavaad, both Jeeva and Paramatma are stated to be calves of Maya-form cow. But actually , calf is Jeeva, Paramatma is not calf, He is SAAND ( bullock , seed giver to cow) - AHAM BEEJAPRADAH PITA ( Gita 14:3 /4 ) ! Jeeva is in bondage, not ISHWAR !! Paramatma is SAAKSHAAT ( Present ) and is our OWN !! 

In MAYAVAADI theory, Both , Jeeva and Ishwar are stated to be originating out of MAYA . Jeeva is stated to be AVIDYAA ( nescience , MALIN - inferior SATTWA pradhaan) while Paramatma is titled as MAYA ( Suddha superior SATTWA pradhaan) ! As per that theory, if both the titles are renounced, the remainder is BRAHMA . Here one doubt comes - if  inferior title holder, Jeeva is also SHUDDH, BUDDHA AND MUKTA BRAHMA by SVAROOP, then how superior SATTWA pradhaan PARMATMA is MAAYIK ( illusion, imagination )? Sankaracharya has no answer to it. 

His theory also does not have answer to a simple Q - if both are imaginary, MAAYIK, then.....it is imagination of who ? In whose imagination, they are MAAYIK ? Actually , Sankaracharya, in order to prove that there exists ONE EXISTENCE ONLY, tried to project both Jeeva and ISHWAR as imaginary.  He did not enquire into the simple fact that we actually perceive "other existence" due to our RAAG only. If we don't have RAAG ( affinity with world) , where is other existence, except ISWAR ? Raag is ours and he has presumed ISHWAR to be imaginary, merely to negate another existence !!!!

Similarly, Shankaracharyaji stated that for unity of Jeeva and Brahma, presence of AHAM is necessary. Now this is wrong, inspite the fact that his AHAM is not " I " but the basis of " I " ( the lighter of " I ", the platform of " I " ) ! Reason is - In Jeeva, that AHAM, which is present in him from ANAADI Kaal ( beginning less time ) , only that AHAM will get strengthened. Strengthening of that AHAM will only be BONDAGE creator and creator of all distinctions and divisions. Hence his theory has one fundamental error presuming Jeeva and ISWAR can be ONE with presence of AHAM ! This is wrong ! When there is AHAM, there is no Brahma. When there is Brahma, there is no AHAM !!!

Actually, Gita and Upanishads only should be referred by those Sadhaks who wish their welfare. These theories, this modern Vedaanta is DISASTER for humanity and for Sadhaks. Lucky are those who do not get entangled in such VAACHIK GYAAN ( a knowledge sans experience/ realisation) !! Trust Gita and old Upanishads, do not trust these theories !!


  " AHAM BRAHMASMI " OF VEDAANTA AND " VASUDEV SARVAM" OF GITA 

In Vedaanta, " AHAM BRAHMASMI " (  I AM BRAHMA ) is primary/ essence/ main while in Gita , VASUDEV SARVAM ( ALL IS GOD ) is primary. In AHAM BRAHMASMI , there is center ness, limited ness but in Vasudev Sarvam , there is no limited ness ( PARICHHINNATA - in Hindi ) ! In AHAM BRAHMASMI , Jeeva is the most important and central, but in Vasudev Sarvam, ISHWAR is most important and central. In Vasudev Sarvam , your limited ness, centralisation shall naturally evaporate but that can not the case with AHAM BRAHMASMI. There , in I AM SUDDHA, BUDDHA MUKTA BRAHMA " , individual personality shall remain, your own existence shall remain and existence of world shall remain but in ALL IS VASUDEV ONLY , no personality shall remain behind. 

Swamiji called those Sadhaks, who have not had opportunity of reading these theories and modern Vedanta , to be " BAD-BHAAGI ( highly fortunate ). Swamiji believed  that these theories can do enormous and irreparable loss to Sadhaks. He categorically stated that these Mayavaad type of theories should not be trusted by Sadhaks, who have goal of Realisation/ Experience of Paramatma. He gave a real life example of a lady , who believed in such theories, complained before her death , to Swamiji that Yamdootas are beating her and people saw signs of beating in her body. Hence TRUST GITA , and UPNISHADS only, do not trust this modern Vedaanta. It is dangerous and fatal. 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 

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View Source
Dear sadaks,
All of us know that Athunma and body (Any body human or ant) are two separate. Athuma is like electric energy that is used in various applications. But electricity is one, cannot be seen. A water bubble has air inside and air outside. But air is one, cannot be seen but felt. Body is costume whereas Athuma is SELF in all. When an ordinary human body contains Athuma which cannot been or proved by science, it is NOT possible to describe Paramathuma. It can only be realized. Realization called Moksha, Mukthi, liberation, etc.So in Vedas and Upanashids, GOD is said as, " , Apprameyam, Annatham, Aksharam, Aroopam etc. Our Hindu puranas and vedas clearly says, the realization takes place in human body, only when he goes beyond any form and thought process. ALL idols are only for to start with realization. But if one sticks to any form, he does not realize. One may study from Tukaram, Gyaneswar, 63 Nayanmars, 12 Alwars, numerous Bakthas. Few of recent years, Hatiram Baba, Malayala Swamy, etc who once visited temple but refrained from temple visits and went into deep trans and GOD went to see them.    
B>S>


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Hari Om

This refers to Q of learned Sadhak, Nishikantji Pathak. 

Soul also is infinite. That we are part of Him, means we have the universality, infiniteness, faultlessness, immortality, ever blissful ness, sentient ness , ever present ness etc - all  in us, coming from our OWN, Paramatma , the PARAMPITA - Seed Giver Father. That is how we are His part. We are His part since when ?  Scriptures'  Answer this Q is - it is from BEGINNING-LESS time ( ANAADI KAAL ) . So believe that and move ahead. Now when the very Mayavaad theory is based on erroneous fundamentals, and when while the as per this theory or even some scriptures , may call Jeeva to be bound by AGYAAN ( nescience) but actually it is bound by his own RAAG ( attachment with inert world with a notion to get something out of it ) , not by any Maya or Agyaan . How did this AGYAAN arise in the beginning ? By disrespect to VIVEKA ! Why VIVEKA got disrespected...again the answer will be raag  !!! Hence Swamiji always said - pay attention to Raag. Do not get entangled by the terms agyaan, maya  etc. RAAG is Agyaan. Pay respect now at least to your VIVEKA, raag will go away , because it does not exist , it is ASAT. It is presumption of you of the ASAT as Sat. The moment you change your presumption ( acceptance ) , which you can do anytime by respecting VIVEKA already present in you. The moment you change your above MANYATA ( acceptance ) , the Agyaan will vanish. 

Hence, hit the eye of the fish - rather than getting confused by these erroneous theories, trust on the theory of GITA - Vasudev Sarvam. Gita has no confusions, no unanswered questions, no assumptions, no conditions, no exceptions- PURE SIMPLE TRUTH !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 

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|| Shree Swami Samarth ||

Savinay Pranam!

Thanks for sarting the topic. As per advaita philosophy there was infinite Brahma & once it came under Maya and thus the nature (Prakriti) and all is created / Jagat Vyavahar started; soul is ansha of Super Soul (Paramatma / Brahma) and qualitatively it is same as Brahma (Sat-Chit-Anandmay). On the other side, as per Dvaita philosophy, Soul is finite since time immortal (Actualy three Tatva are Anadi - Jeev, Maya and Brahma (Bhagwant). Jeev is ansha of Bhagwant and it is under Maya since time immortal (Anadi kaala se).

Now, infinite Brahma can not come under Maya, so this question is unanswered. I have another question regarding Dvaita philosophy. It is: Though the soul is finite, but qualitatively it is ansh of Bhagawant/Paramatma; then how can Maya take over charge of infinite nos. of souls (Jeev) since time immortal (Anadi Kaal se)?

Please guide me on these unanswered questions.

Love,
Nishikant Pathak


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Term infinite and infinitesimal both don't exist in matter. There is no existence of infinite and infinitesimal in matter. Both terms are used to point to reality which is beyond matter. 

Matter can be divided into parts. Matter has attributes of superiority or inferiority. The Absolute is beyond these attributes of matter. Isopanishad describes this reality as --
om purnan adah purnam idam .... which means that everything is complete and perfect. It is because only God exists and God is always complete and perfect.

Differences in opinion happen because we try to describe the Absolute in terms of matter. Please focus on the true reality instead of focusing on material description. The Absolute is varnan-atita which means that it cannot be described in material attributes. All descriptions can only point to the Truth and they can't fully describe the Truth. So, focus on what they are pointing to instead of arguing about material descriptions.

Regards,
Murari Das

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Hari Om

As I told in previous response, I did not pay any attention to these theories, such as, Advaita, Monism or Mayavadi theories. But I will try to answer your Q , if I know from you as to what does these 3 theories say ? What is Mayavadi theory according to your knowledge ? Does this theory presume that both Jeeva and Paramatma are maya ( imaginary ) ? If yes, then my Q will be it is imagination of who ? So please elaborate your perception of these 3 theories, so that I understand your Q better, and then may Be I can respond to your quest better. 

Jai  Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 


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Vyasji wrote >> He only exists, no other exists. You, I , This, That are not there, only Vasudev is there. 

I completely agree with Vyasji's statement. This is truth. Unfortunately, Srila Prabhupada, the author of Bhagavad Gita As It Is, does not accept above statement. He considers above statement is mayavadi and is critical of above statement. My suggestion is to read Sadhak Sanjivini. S Vaidyanathan will get confused if he reads Bhagavad Gita As It Is especially when this book is critical of Swami Ramsukhdasji's teachings.

Regards,
Murari Das


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Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna,
This is in response to a question from a fellow Sadhaka, regarding Advaita.

Bhagavad Gita is Vishistadvaita. 
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,

" sarvadharman parityajya,
  Mamekam saranam vraja,
  Aham tvam sarva papebhyo,
  Moksha yisyami ma sucah. "
         (Gitaji 18,66)

Which means,
'Abandon all varieties of religion. Surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sins and give you moksha. Do not worry or fear.' The above Slokam explains Vishistadvaita philosophy well. 

In Vishistadvaita we are always His eternal servants. We will be serving The Lord in His kingdom. 
That is why mayavadi philosophy runs into problem explaining their stand. 

Thank You,
Prasad A.Iragavarapu, MD

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Again so many souls! If concept of so many (different) souls [Supreme soul, atomic soul,  infinitesimal soul etc.] is acceptable then Gita verse 7:19 needs revision.
Humbly,
Saadhaka


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Infinitesimal soul is part of Infinite soul. Verse 7 of Ch. 15, reads like this; Mama Eva Anshaha, Jeevaloke, Jeevbhootaha , Sanatanaha 
this means part of infinite has become infinitesimal. It is covered with Prakriti, consisting of 5 primordial elements, Fire, ether, sky, earth and water. As this and infinitesimal come in juxta-position, a third force known as Maya comes in between and makes Infinitesimal loose awareness.
Verse 14, Ch.7, mentions that Daivi Hi Esha Gunamayi, mama Maya Duratyaya. It means that force of Maya produces, Satwa, Rajas and Tamas - these three states of consciousness along with Mana, Budhhi, Chitta and Ahamkar. Ahamkar in turn produces infinite no. of dualiites which have to be destroyed with help from Divine and we have to experience Monism qualified as ' Chidananda Rupa Shivaha Aham, Shivaha Aham i.e. I am the soul eternal having qualities of Sat, Chitta, and Anand - essence of Monism.
In Sadhak state, one has to deal with duality, but the same duality is to be converted into soul eternal by practices mentioned in Geeta and come out of it.
Jayantilal Shah

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Hari Om

Actually it makes no difference as to what is the size of the soul. " I EXIST "- one never has any doubt on this. Nor one has ever experienced one's absence. Concepts regarding soul, the relationship of soul with Paramatma , these are differences of opinions of scholars, but there is no difference of opinion on EXISTENCE OF SELF, the SELF's similarity with Paramatma, and the need of Paramatma for the Self ( embodied soul ). That soul can never become equal to Paramatma - again is an issue where you must define " what is equality" ! If essential characteristics of Paramatma and Self are seen, they are already equal- both are sentient, both are imperishable, both are present, both are ever blissful, both are faultless, both are permanent, both are ever existing. A Jnana Yogi , as per Gita, attains similarity with God ( MAM SAADHARMYAMAAGTA-14:2) , so does. Karma Yogi ( ESHAM BRAHMIN STITHI - 2:71/72). A Bhakta becomes "indivisible" with Him. Gita equates both in various ways, read Chapter 13, there SELF and Paramatma have been stated to be having same characteristics. That is on characteristics. But still, there some differences which are irreconcilable or insurmountable for Self. Like, a Jeeva necessarily takes birth under control of Prakruti while God incarnates by taking Prakruti under His control, the act of Creation, Preservation and Destruction of the universe ( creation) never comes under control of Jeeva. 

I don't read much reg MAYAVAADI/ADVAITA/DVAITA theories. Why ? Because it does not help. Moreover Gita also does not recommend you to do so, it calls these as " SHASHTRA JAAL" ( SHRITIVIPRATIPANNA- 2:53)- major obstacle in your real spiritual progress. 

What is relevant and important , then, to a SAADHAK ? Your relationship with God. He is your OWN. When you take His shelter, you become "fearless" ! Why do you become fearless, when the law is - fear gets generated by company of "other" ? Because He is not "other" - He is SVAKEEYA, AATMEEYA . A Sadhak should consider God to be OWN and proceed doubtlessly. 

Once He is not "other" - different theories are put forth. Actually, the concept of Gita is the best and very clear - VASUDEV SARVAM. He only exists, no other exists. You, I , This, That are not there, only Vasudev is there. He made this Creation out of Himself only, for PREM LEELA. That is it !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 

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Dear friend, 
From your name you must be  atraditional Advaiti - follower of Gaudapada and Sankara school. So, what I write here may offend you. I apologize for that; but facts have to be presented a sfacts without any sugar coating. I hope you pardon me.
Firstly, Advaita was born in an attempt to arrest the flow of people from Vedic or Smriti dependent customs to Bouddha. Main reason for this migration was the ugly cast bias smritis have inculcated in average mind. As I understand, though Sruti and Gita never accept caste/Varna by birth, smritis have misinterpreted Sruti and established discrimination by birth. Bouddha rejects this and hence the exodus from Smarta to Bouddha.rores. People complained to the minister that the laid road is full of pot holes and 
To arrest this outflow and to project the upper castes like Brahmanas on top several schools researched and fnally the school of Gauda pada came out with a theory. 
A contractor agreed to lay a 15 km road and made 1500 crores. People complained to the minister that the road claimed to have been laid is full of pot holes and is not levlled even. The minister came to inspect the road personally. Behind him came the contractor holding an umbrella for the minister. The mini asked the people - where are the pot holes and uneven patches? The people were stunned and said, "Why sir, the road is full of holes.' The minister waved his hand and asked, "Where is the road?" The villagers fell silent. "Now you see, rather I see, when there is no road, how can there be pot holes and unevenness in the road? all complaints are purely malicious." the contractor "Well said sir"
Like this Advaita says, "when you are Maaya, I am maaya; all this you see is Maaya, that is  non existent how can there be inequality between non existent." That is how advaita obtains equality.
It propagtes that every Atma is in reality Paramaatma subjugated by adnyaana or ignorance. Th eunanswered question os Paramaatma embodiment o fDnyaana - how can it be deluded by ignorance? This means that Ignorance is superior to Paramatma. If Atma is Paramaatm aitself how can it have a sookshma Sareera etc.
Kindly refer to the opening Sloka of Viuveka choodaamani. It starts with Jantoonaam narajanma durlabham and  so on. On the one hand advaita claims everything is Maaya; birth is Maaya death is so and Naaree sthanabhara naabheedESam etc are all Bhrama. Then, how can be a man superior to a dog, a man superior to woman, Brahmin superior to Sudra  as the Sloka claims.
In short Advaita is Polemic.
It does not in conjugation with the spirit of Gita. I agree with Iragavarapu Achaarya.
with many apologies,
sv krishna


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