Saturday, May 31, 2014

[gita-talk] How the Sat Chetan and Anand are the properties of Self?

 

Shree Hari 

This brings closure to this topic.   Thank you all !  

Gita Talk Moderators,   Ram Ram 

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Respected Divine Sadhaks,

How the Sat Chetan and Anand are the properties of Self?

Please enlighten me with the meaning  and elaborations so
that i could understand and accept that i actually am a part
of "Him".

Regards

Man Mohan Batra

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Dewar Batra Ji & Sarvattom Sadak Ji,
                                                                        Namaskar!
 
You have all the properties like you are having Suthol Body comprising of  5 elements, 10 Indriyas, (Mana/Bhudee/Ahamkar), your surely are SOMETHING meaning SAT (that is true about you), you feel that you exist meaning CHIT (you are conscious of your ownself) and finally when you free of worldly troubles and pleasures you are in the state of ANANDA!!!
 
Lord Krishna has given the definition of True Self (REAL YOU) in you  or, anybody else  in Shrimad Bhagved Gita as:
 
IDRIYANI PARAYAHUR, IDRIYEBHE PARMAM MANA!
MANSASTU PARA BHUDHE, YO BHUDE PARTAS TU SAH!!
 
That SAH (GOD) of you is SOMETHING what you feel are TRUE YOU in you which is beyond your both Mana & Bhudee. But then,  within your Bhudee you definitely exist as SOMETHING means that you are SAT  (True),  again you definitely feel that YOU ARE which is sign of  CHIT (EGO) and finally your condition of state of Mind, free of happiness/sorrow, pleasure/grief, comfort/trouble….so on so forth which is your  ANAND
 
Hope this removes your doubt how Sat Chetan and Anand exist within you!!
 
 Regards,
 
Kuldep K. Kaul

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Dear Sadak,
If you disown everything on earth, you are ONE WITH HIM. Sri Krishna lived in family life. But HE disowned mentally everything. HE said to the child born black and nearly dead, to Matha Uthra, " If I (Sri Krishna) am Proona Bramacari may this child become normal". Sri Krishna said this at the end of Mahabarath. The child totally alive, beautiful and healthy. This is child was Parikshid. So disown and become Aach Chit Aanantham.

B. S 

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Hari Om

How the Sat, Chetan and Anand are the properties of Self ? - this is the Q. 

The existence of water is proved by your thirst. If you are thirsty, that means water necessarily exists ,  it may be 1000 Kms away from you, but unless water exists you cannot feel thirsty. That means if you have desire, the element to fulfill that desire exists. For example, you don't have desire to smell the flower of sky , because flower of sky does not exist. Upto here, clear ? 

Now you have a desire in you that you should live for ever. This is desire for Sat. You have desire that you should know everything, you should not be agyaani ( not knowledgeable). This is desire for Chitta . You have desire that you should always be happy, never sorrowful. This is desire for Ananda. Now if these desires are present in you, that proves what ? The element to fulfill that desire is also present. ( if you feel thirsty, water is there) ! Now , actually these desires are in you to fulfill them. Actually, you yourSELF are Sat- Chit- Anand Svaroop only and since you have associated yourSELF with Asat-Agyaan- Dukhalay - world, your basic form has manifested in desire for Sat-Chit-Ananda. You can not have desire , if there is absence of Sat-Chit-Anand. 

The above proves that if you have desire for Sat-Chit-Ananda , they are attainable. You can not attain them, if you have no unity with them. Hence Sat-Cit-Ananda are your properties, viz properties of Self because you have desire of the same existing in you. You make mistake of fulfilling these desires from the world and hence these desires are still unfulfilled, still existing in you. So till you realise that these desires are not going to be ever fulfilled from your affinity with the world or out of anything from the world, these desires will continue to remain with you, life after life, Yuga after Yugas. So you have to disconnect from world because these are not existing in the world. Once you disconnect from the world, only two elements remain behind- JEEVA AND JAGDISH. So the element to fulfill these desires are existing with Jeeva or Jagdish. Jagat is out because you have failed to find that element in Jagat. Therefore also it is proved that Sat-Chit-Ananda are properties of Paramatma and since Jeeva is ANSH of Paramatma, therefore in Jeeva also. 

Satisfied ? Ask Q , in case of any query. I shall be happy to respond. 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 

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श्री B S जी! आप किसे disown करनेको बोल रहे हैं?
यह सब कुछ (संसार और सृष्टि) उसी तत्त्व (परमात्मा) का आद्यावतार कहा गया है। 
उस (तत्त्व) के अलावा क्या कभी कुछ हुआ है जिसे disown किया जाय?
अस्त। 
सविनय,
साधक 


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Sat is the property of he soul. It is eternal. Ch.2 of Geeta deals with this concept. Verse 20 mentions 'Ajaha, Nityaha, Shashwataha, Puranaha. It means, it is never born, always existing, Eternal, Puranaha which has similar meaning. Hence, it is called Sat. 
In the presence of soul, Prakriti becomes living - chaitnyavat, hence it is called  'Chitta'. and Divine Joy is the nature of soul, hence it is called 'Anand'
Jayantilal Shah


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I want to be eternal and don't want to die (SAT). 
I want to be happy (ANANDA).
I am conscious (chetan).

I want to be Sat Chetan and Anand. Gita and other scriptures state that we are these. We are Sat Chetan and Anand and therefore, we are seeking for them. Due to illusion, we have assumed opposite.

I accept above statements on faith.

Regards,
Murari Das

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श्री बत्राजी!
बहुत सुन्दर प्रश्न उठाया है। 
साधक भी समझना चाहता है कि जिसे Self कहा गया है, उसके बारेमें (कि वह सच्चिदानन्द है),
उसे (जो समझना चाहता है) कैसे समझाया जाता है?
अस्तु। 
सविनय,
साधक 

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|| Shree Swami Samarth ||

Dear Sadhak,
As Soul is part (Ansha) of Bhagwant, qualitatively it is Sat - Chit - Anandamay. Knowledge (Wisdom) - Peace - Love is the nature of soul. It is its own nature. We identify ourselves as body, we have DEH-BUDHHI, that why we can not realize our true nature. When we realize ourself other than our body, we start our journey towards Sat-Chit-Anandmay swarup.

Love,
Nishikant Pathak

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Dear Sadak,
If you disown everything on earth, you are ONE WITH HIM. Sri Krishna lived in family life. But HE disowned mentally everything. HE said to the child born black and nearly dead, to Matha Uthra, " If I (Sri Krishna) am Proona Bramacari may this child become normal". Sri Krishna said this at the end of Mahabarath. The child totally alive, beautiful and healthy. This is child was Parikshid. So disown and become Sat Chit Aanantham.


B  S

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[gita-talk] Is Jeev, Soul Separate from the All Pervading Paramatma?

 

In recent Gita Talk discussion -   Advaita or Monism still leaves some doubts. 

But still, there some differences which are irreconcilable or insurmountable for Self.
Is the Soul and Jeev one ?   If not, then are they two apart (different) from Paramatma?  If apart, then Paramatma is not all pervading,  if Paramatma is perfectly present in soul and jeev, then how the three can be "bhinna" (diverse and separable)?   
Where it has been said "Mamaivaansho jeevaloke"  there where it has been said in Gita (please identify the shloka) where "ansh" has been separated?   and "ansh" is not complete and filled with Paramatma.  Please identify the shloka.  

Is the all pervasive Paramatma divisible?  Can He be divisible?   In which scripture is it said so?   
One can only divide that thing which is not all pervasive.   Every "ansh"  of Paramatma (from perspective of seeing)  if it is not pervaded by Paramatma, then how can Paramatma be all pervasive?  

Humbly,   
Sadhak 


क्या soul और जीव एक हैं? यदि नहीं तो क्या दोनों परमात्मासे भिन्न हैं? यदि भिन्न हैं, तो परमात्मा सर्वव्यापी नहीं है क्योंकि soul और जीव उससे परिपूर्ण नहीं हैं। यदि परमात्मा soul और जीव, दोनोंमें परिपूर्ण है, तो तीनों भिन्न कैसे होंगे?
जहाँ कहा गया,''ममैवांशो जीवलोके'' वहाँ (गीतामें) कहाँ कहा गया है (कृपया श्लोक बतायें) कि ''अंश'' अलग किया गया है? और अंश परमात्मासे परिपूर्ण नहीं है? कृपया श्लोक अवश्य बतायें। 
सर्वव्यापी परमात्मा क्या विभाज्य है? क्या सर्वव्यापी परमात्मा विभाज्य हो सकता है? यह किस Scripture में बताया है?
विभाजन तो उसीका किया जा सकता है जो सर्वव्यापी नहीं हो। 
सर्वव्यापी परमात्माका प्रत्येक अंश (देखनेकी दृष्टिसे) परमात्मासे परिपूर्ण नहीं हो तो परमात्मा सर्वव्यापी ही कहाँ रहा?
सविनय,
साधक 

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Further clarification on my question:

Is "atma" (devoid of any sort of illusion of affinity of self with matter) and "parmatma" one or different?

I have been involved with Iskcon and they are quite clear. They say that "atma" can never become one with "parmatma" and "atma" will always remain servant of "parmatma".  "Atma" can never become one with "parmatma". They accept qualitative oneness with parmatma but not total oneness. They consider those who consider atma and parmatma as same as mayavadis and consider them worse than atheist. 

Can someone explain whether Swami Ramsukhdasji considered "atma" (devoid of affinity to matter) and "parmatma" as one? Did he accept that "atma" and "parmatma" will always remain different and "atma" will always service "parmatma"?


Regards,
Murari Das

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My question is -- 

Are "atma" and "paramatma" one or different?


Regards,
Murari Das


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Excellent observation to mediate and question to meditate upon!!!

Thanks.
Naga Narayana.

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There is only one entity in existence. Call it Bhagavan, call it paramatma or call it Brahman. It is sat-chit-anand (is eternally existing, is full of all knowledge and is absolutely blissful). Anything that exists belongs to Him. He is eternally endowed with infinite potencies, which can be grouped into three types - bahirangaa, tatasthaa and antarangaa.

1) His bahirangaa shakti manifests itself as the material creation. It is not saccidananda. It is trigunatmak (made of sattva, rajas and tamas) and is also called maya shakti.
2) His tatasthaa shakti manifests itself as the infinite number of jivatmas, each having a distinct conscious awareness. These are saccidanand by nature but are subject to being attached to maya shakti (bahiranga shakti) or to antarangaa shakti.
3) His antaranga shakti manifests itself as His own abode (Vaikuntha dhaam), His form (saccidananda form) etc. It is saccidanand by nature.

Jivatma is called tatastha shakti (lit. situated on the shore) because it has the nature of being attached to either bahiranga shakti or antaranga shakti. If it is attached to bahiranga shakti, it keeps taking birth in the material world. If it is attached to antaranga shakti, it is in a liberated state and remains eternally with Bhagavan in His abode (Vaikuntha). A liberated atma never gets attached to maya.

Thus the jiva is same as paramatma because both are saccidananda. However, jiva is eternally an infintisimal part of Bhagavan and its identity remains eternally distinct from Him - whether in bound state or in liberated state.

God is eternally existing along with these shaktis, but the existence of the shaktis depend on His existence. He alone exists independent of anything else. 

Hari Om!

-Japesh

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हरि ओम

मोडरेटर्स के आदेशानुसार , मैं हिन्दी में और अंग्रेज़ी में , कई बार पूछे गये प्रश्न का उत्तर देता हूँ । 

Jeev apni alag satta hi maanta hai maya ke prabhav se...Par jeev us mai fasa kaise ye prashn kai sadjko ka hai.
Drista Satya hai Drashya Asatya hai (Yog Vasisth), is vichaar se jo discussion hum  yaha kar rahe hai vo bhi asatya hai.

पहली बात - जीव अपनी अलग सत्ता माया के प्रभाव से नहीं डालता । यह आपने कहाँ सुना और पढ़ा है कि माया का जीव के "मानने या नहीं मानने" के स्वतंत्र अधिकार पर कोई नियंत्रण है ? ऐसा नहीं है । जीव अपने विवेक का अनादर करता है । माया कभी किसी को नहीं फँसाती, जीव ख़ुद भगवान् की माया को अपनी और अपने लिये मान कर फँसता है । इसमें माया क्या करेगी ? कोई आग में हाथ डालेगा तो हाथ जलेगा ,  इसमें अग्नि क्या करेगी ? 

अगला प्रश्न है कि जीव उसमें फँसा कैसे ? उत्तर है - विवेक का अनादर करके । वैसे इससे क्या फ़र्क पड़ता है कि कैसे फँसा और कब फँसा ? अभी फँसा हुआ है ना ? तो अब क्या करे , यह सवाल उठना चाहिये ! फ़र्क पड़ता बो तो बताओ कि क्या, कैसे और कहाँ फ़र्क पड़ता है । 

जो डिस्कशन हम यहाँ कर रहे हैं, वह "सत्" है या " असत् " , कुछ भी हो - कहाँ और क्या फ़र्क पड़ता है, बताईये । डिस्कशन सत् हो या असत्- डिस्कशन करने वाले अर्थात् - हम सत् हैं और चूँकि हम सत् हैं, यदि हम असत् को पकड़ लें तो असत् भी सत् दीखने लग जाता है । जैसे, अग्नि में कुछ भी डालो, चाहे काला कोयला डालो, जो डालोगे वह लाल हो जाता है , अग्नि रूप हो जाता है ! यदि आपको लगता है कि कुछ असत् है, चाहे डिस्कशन चाहे और कुछ, तो जिसको लगता है वह स्वयं तो सत् हो ही गया । अगर डिस्कशन करने वाले सत् हैं , टोपिक भी सत् की खोज है तो असत् कहाँ हुआ ? आप योग वशिष्ठ में माथा खपाने की बजाय पहले गीता पढंें , बाद में योग वशिष्ठ समझ में आ जायेगी । ये बात अलग है कि गीता पढ़ने के बाद और कुछ पढ़ने की आवश्यकता ही नहीं रहेगी । 


Samasya kya hai apne aapko Jeev man lena ?,mana ki kisi sadhka ne maan liya ki vo aatma hi hai or ye sab jo chal raha hai vo sab sapna hai. Mana ki sadhak ne sukhi/dukhi hona bhi chod diya or paristhiti anusaar karm karne laga paridaam ki chinta kiye bina..
Aise sadhak ke liya baaki kya bacha..?

अपने आपको जीव मान लेना - ये समस्या है क्या ? ये समस्या किसकी है ? अपने आप को जीव क्यों मानता है ? जो मानता है, उसीको मान्यता छोड़नी पड़ेगी , दूसरा कैसे छुड़ा देगा ? समस्या बनाई किसने हैं ? जिसने बनाई है वो मिटा भी सकता है , कौन रोकता है ? भगवान् की माया तो निश्चित रूप से नहीं रोकती , तो फिर कौन रोकता है ? समस्या है कहाँ ? समस्या स्वयं की ही उपज है, बाहर की या संसार की  उपज नहीं है । समस्या तो वह कहलाती है जो बाहर से आई हो, बाहरी परिस्थिति , घटना आदि हो , यहाँ समस्या क्या है? असत् को सत् माना है, उसको सत्ता महत्ता दी है, असत् से राग कर लिया है - ये समस्या है । तो मत करो, असत् को सत्ता, महत्ता मत दो, कौन रोकता है ? जाने हुए असत् का त्याग ही तो करना है, इसमें क्या बड़ी बात है ? समस्या क्या है ? समस्या है, संसार के भोग अच्छे लगते हैं, और जब अच्छे लगते हैं तो यह भूल जाते हैं कि यह को असत् है, सत् नहीं है , असत् को सत् मान लेते हैं ! तो मन मानो ...! ये समस्या का समाधान है । इसमें बेचारी माया करेगी ?

ये जो आप कह रहे हो कि आपने मान लिया कि आत्मा है, संसार स्वप्न है, अादि....भाई साहेब ....माफ़ कीजियेगा, अभी तक....माना नहीं है, जाना है । किताबी ज्ञान लिया है, अनुभव नहीं किया । सुना है, पढा है, समझा नहीं है । यदि आपने मान लिया कि सब स्वप्न है, सब मिथ्या है, तो फिर इसमें सुख क्यों ढूँढ रहे हो ? क्यों पता लगाने की कोशिश कर रहे हो कि जगत् सत् है कि असत् ? क्यों प्रश्न पूछ रहे हो ? मानने के बाद "समस्या" कैसे आ सकती है । तो माना नहीं है, किताबी ज्ञान लिया है । मान तो संसार को ही अभी तक सत् ही रहे हो । बुद्धि लगाकर स्वयं के बारे में और जगत् के बारे में जानना चाहते हो । मान कहाँ रहे हो ? आपने माना नहीं है । संसार को असत् मानने के बाद बाक़ी क्या रहता है ? कौन सी समस्या बाक़ी रह सकती है ? समस्या ही संसार है, संसार ही समस्या है - जब संसार रो असत् मान लिया तो फिर कोई समस्या बाक़ी नहीं रह सकती । तो भैया, माना नहीं है ।

सुखी-दु:खी होना छोड़ दिया । बढिया किया , लेकिन अगर छोड़ दिया तो अभी याद क्यों आ रही है ? वैसे सुखी- दु:खी होना छोड़ा नहीं जाता, छूट जाता है । जब संसार को असत् मान लेते हैं ना, तो सुख-दु:ख की ़ जड़ ही कट जाती है । त्याग का अभिमान , उसकी याद - असत्  से संबंध बनाये रखती है । असत् से संबंध ! संबंध है तो फिर माना कहाँ ? 



Kya mukti paakar sadhak dubara is maya jaal mai nahi fasega? Nahi fasega to ku nahi fasega. Kabhi to pahli baar fasa hoga tabhi jeev astitav mai aya. to dubara bhi aa sakta hai.

आप पहले मुक्ति पाइये तो सही , फिर पता पड़ जायेगा कि वापिस फँसोगे कि नहीं । बन्धन में बैठे हुए ये सोच रहे हो कि मुक्ति के बाद फिर फँस जाऊँगा तो क्या होगा ? पहले मुक्त तो होइये । आप वापिस नहीं फँसेंगे । एक बार मुक्त हो गया तो हो ही गया । एक बार घर पहुँच गये तो पहुँच ही गये । घर पहुँचने के बाद सफ़र बाक़ी रहता है क्या ? मुक्त होने के बाद बंधन नहीं होगा । मालूम पड़ जाये कि लड्डू में ज़हर है, तो फिर खाओगे क्या ? 

जय श्री कृष्णा

व्यास एन बी 

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Parama Atma is ominipresent or all pervasive. everything including cEta, jada and ajada are parts or attributes of Parama Aatma. Just as your little finger and the nail on it are parts of your body so are Atma (soul or Jeev, as you say) are parts of Parama Atma. Your little finger is yours but is it You? Similarly, all Atmas are His but none of them can be his. Your children have some features of yours; but they cannot be you. Another example or DriShTaanta is: As for fish it is pervaded by water, fish is born in water, grows in it and dies in it and merges with water. But can we say that fish is water?
Amsha means ray which carries energy or chetana (from the source of light or heat etc.) Mama Eva amsho jeeva bhootaH sanaaatana ha sto be properly assimilated. The energy that is required for the huge work of creation of beings is drawn through a ray emanating from the single source that Parama Atma is. This never wasmeant to convey that Atma and Parama Atma are the same or any such fantasy as in Advaita. Simple logic is how the all powerful Parama atma can be subjugated to avidya or adnyaana and take the forms of Atmas?
sv krishna  
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|| Shree Swami Samarth ||

Dear Sadhak,

1. The Jeev itself is soul and there is no difference in Soul & Jeev. 

Now, see how the Soul or Jeev is ansh of Paramatma. Paramatma is all pervading. It iis present in everybody's heart along with Jeev (Geeta 15.15). (Some Acharyas say Soul is Paramatma only & because of illusion or Maya, it does not realizes its original form while others say existence of Soul is there along with Paramatma seperately but qualitatively both are Sat-Chid-Anand swarup). 

Jeev is ansha of Paramatma so qualitatively there is no difference in them, ex. Water is water in vapour or ice state or the sparks of fire are not different than fire. So Jeev is not different from Paramatma. (In absolute state Soul/Jeev is Brahma & Paramatma is also Brahma but with having Shakti)


२. "Where it has been said "Mamaivaansho jeevaloke"  there where it has been said in Gita" - 
In Bhagavad Geeta 15th Chapter 7th Shloka - 
ममैव अंशो जीवलोके जीवभुत सनातनः।
मनः षष्ठानी ईन्द्रियाणि प्रकृतिस्थानि कर्षती ॥ भ. गीता १५.७


३. Is the all pervasive Paramatma divisible?  Can He be divisible?   In which scripture is it said so? One can only divide that thing which is not all pervasive.   Every "ansh"  of Paramatma (from perspective of seeing)  if it is not pervaded by Paramatma, then how can Paramatma be all pervasive?  

Paramatma is not divisible. Ekam, anantam Brahmam.... 
पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदम् पूर्णात् पूर्ण मुदच्यते।
पूर्णस्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥

All Upanishads & scriptures say that Brahma / Paramatma is all pervading, omniscient, omnipotent. Paramatma is not divisible. As said earlier, Jeev is ansha of Paramatma, so it is pervaded by Paramatma only. Paramatma is not conceivable through senses. That is why we can not completely understand all qualities just by our limited senses or understanding. Anantam can not be descibed with Saant words.


Love,
Nishikant Pathak

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HINDI
हरि ओम

सर्वप्रथम तो यह नोट करें कि जैसे स्कूल या कोलेज में पढ़ाई होती है और जैसे वहाँ कि पढ़ाई एक बुद्धि का विषय होता है, वैसे यह आध्यात्मिक विद्या, ब्रह्म इत्यादि कोई बुद्धि का विषय नहीं है ! स्वयं को स्वयं के द्वारा ही समझा और जाना जा सकता है, बुद्धि और बुद्धि के विकार तर्क के द्वारा नहीं । आप तर्क बहुत ज़्यादा करते हैं !  अगर आप गंभीर व्यक्ति हैं, तो शान्ति से बात को समझने का प्रयत्न करें । यहाँ कोई छिछोरेपन से समझ नहीं सकता । 

आपका पहला प्रश्न हैं - क्या soul और जीव एक हैं ! आपका एकता का क्या अर्थ समझते हैं ?  जीव में चेतन अंश भी है और जड़ अंश भी हैं ! जिसे आप आत्मा कहते हैं, वह चेतन अंश है । जब यह आत्मा , अपने स्वीकार या अस्वीकार करने की एकमात्र योग्यता को प्रयोग करके, जड़ शरीर-संसार से तादात्म्य कर लेता है, तो इसकी " जीव" संज्ञा हो जाती है । " अहम्" जीवात्मा का द्योतक हैं । इसमें एक चेतन अंश है ( आत्मा) और एक जड़ अंश है । अगर " अहम् " न हो, अर्थात् शरीर- संसार के साथ तादात्म्य न हो, तो जीव संज्ञा नहीं रहती, शुद्ध ब्रह्म रह जाता है , जिसे आप "आत्मा " शब्द से समझते हैं । जड़ और चेतन के मिलन को ही " अहम्" , " चिज्जड़ग्रन्थि " , "जीव", "जीवात्मा" आदि कहा जाता है । 

आपका स्वरचित, विचित्र argument कि परमात्मा फिर सर्वव्यापी कैसे हैं, ....ये बात ही नहीं उठती जब आप को इस बात का ज्ञान होता है कि जीव में चेतन अंश भी रहता है । जैसा उपर बताया - जीव कहो या अहम् कहो या चिज्जड़ग्रन्थि कहो, चेतन अंश तो उसमें रहेगा ही, जब चेतन अंश रहेगा तो आपके प्रिय परमात्मा की सर्वव्यापकता रह गई ना ! आप चिन्ता न करें, आपके परमात्मा की सर्वव्यापकता कहीं भी भंग नहीं होती । जो कुछ तोड़फोड़ होती है, वह आपकी बुद्धि में ही होती है, विभाजन, विभाजित , विभाज्य ये सब बुद्धि के तर्क मात्र हैं, उससे परे नहीं ! जीव, जगदीश, यहाँ तक की मूल प्रकृति , ये सब बुद्धि से परे हैं, बुद्धि की परिधि में नहीं आते । प्रकृति भी नहीं आती तो परमेश्वर और उसका अंश जीव कैसे आयेगा ? इसलिये बुद्धि को कम प्रयोग में लायें, यह बदलती है, मित्र ! बदलने वाली चीज़ से, न बदलने वाले स्वयं को समझने का प्रयास न करें । विवेक का प्रयोग करें, विश्वास का प्रयोग करें ! 

जय श्री कृष्णा

व्यास एन बी 

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Dear Sadaks,
1) The water bubble contains air. The same air is also outside bubble. But to eyes it appears as bubble. So the Jeeva leaves the body and another bubble (rebirth) until NO vasanas. 2) If paramathuma wants to create, HE needs only a seed. But if human wants to make anything, he needs more quantity of raw material the his final product with wastage. This understanding alone can relieve one from rebirth. A nice message from Bible. Only Christ said on cross that, "Oh Father (Paramathuma) in heaven forgive those who did this to me". So Christ had NO atom of ego, vengeance, Mamakaram (mine & my body) etc, which gave him Austral body on 3rd day of his death, Smallest harm, disgrace or harm done to me, I first think, what my friend or relative done is nothing compared to Christ or Jada Bharatha. When we have slightest Ego, desire to reciprocate, hatred etc we are being born as bubbles. In fact I once requested this site Moderator, to allow me to make like minded people to form a group to learn from vast collection of mine in video and audio on our Hindu scripts. But that was NOT allowed, because it is MY- moderator site. This mine-ness only.is big block in spiritual progress. 
B.S.    . 

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Ram Ram,

This question has been asked many times by seekers in different formats.

Vyas N B ji has answered in the past but even though some doubts are still there.

I would request Vyas ji to explain this once again for the benifit of all Sadhaks VERY BRIEFLY

Jeev apni alag satta hi maanta hai maya ke prabhav se...Par jeev us mai fasa kaise ye prashn kai sadjko ka hai.
Drista Satya hai Drashya Asatya hai (Yog Vasisth), is vichaar se jo discussion hum  yaha kar rahe hai vo bhi asatya hai.

Samasya kya hai apne aapko Jeev man lena ?,mana ki kisi sadhka ne maan liya ki vo aatma hi hai or ye sab jo chal raha hai vo sab sapna hai. Mana ki sadhak ne sukhi/dukhi hona bhi chod diya or paristhiti anusaar karm karne laga paridaam ki chinta kiye bina..
Aise sadhak ke liya baaki kya bacha..?

Kya mukti paakar sadhak dubara is maya jaal mai nahi fasega? Nahi fasega to ku nahi fasega. Kabhi to pahli baar fasa hoga tabhi jeev astitav mai aya. to dubara bhi aa sakta hai.

Amit
Ram Ram
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