Thursday, July 4, 2013

[gita-talk] Query regarding the first birth of a soul

 

Dear Sadhak's,

When the soul first time took birth at that time it was not having any past karmas and they all were pure like God.

My question is when there was not any past karmas then on what basis some souls got birth as animal/insects etc. and some got birth as human being.


Or  every souls first took birth as human being and later according to their karmas later they took birth of animals/creature.

Hope my question is clear to you, please also correct my understanding if it is incorrect as stated in above lines.


Jai Shri Ram 

Amit Gupta

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Hari Om

It is true that SOUL ( AATMA) is unborn ! But so what ? Jeevatma is different from soul. Here we are talking not about soul but EMBODIED SOUL. When some one talks about birth and death, that some one is naturally and obviously talking about embodiment of the soul, and the fact is that Jeevatma, definitely takes birth and dies, changes bodies. Here the term birth or death relates with the bodies which a soul adopts. MAANYAVAR MAHODAY- KRIPAA KARKE AAP PURE SOUL EVAM JEEVATMA KA FIRK SAMAJHEN ! YAHAAN PRASHNA JEEVATMA KE BAARE MAIN HAI. GITA MAIN SABSE PAHLE BHAGWAAN NE YAHI FARK SAMJHAAYA HAI. SWAYAM GITA PADHIYE EVAM IS FARK KO SAMAJHIYE. USME KOI PRASHNA HO TO POOCHHIYE. AISA MAT BOLIYE " YAH KAHNA GALAT HAI " ! KISI KISM KI KOI GALTI PRASHNA MAIN NAHIN HAI. HAMAARE KO GALTI DEEKH RAHI HAI, JAB HAM THEEK SE SAMAJH LENGE TAB MAALUM HO JAAYEGA KI GALTI DOOSARE MAIN NAHIN, SWAYAM MAIN HI HAI ! KYAA JACHEE, PARAM AADARNEEYA ? Most Revered Sir...Kindly first understand the difference between " Jeevatma" and "AATMA" ! Here the question is about Jeevatma. In Gita, God explained the difference at the outset itself. Read Gita yourself and understand this difference. In case of doubt, ask questions. Do not say..." This is wrong". Yes..AATMA ONLY HAS TAKEN BIRTH IN BODY ( Gita 7:4/5). There is nothing wrong in the question. Questioner is not wrong. Your understanding of the question is wrong. When you read Gita yourself, you will come to know that mistake lies with you and not questioner. 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Hari Om

Welcome Mike Keenor ! This Forum missed you. Hope you are fully recovered health wise. 

You have talked about some body getting born as a human being say in a place where only non-vegetarian food is available. But that way irrespective of the place of birth, the world is full of all types of creatures some are grass eating, some grains, some even sand or wood, some even stool, some another creatures, some flesh only, some vegetation only....!!! The ones who have taken birth in say Greenland as humans can afford to continue with tradition and later on use their VIVEKA and take a call as to what should they eat and what they should not. In order to continue eating fish/ flesh , the vehetrian food should be non available. A human is different from other life forms, because every human has to perform certain DUTIES unlike say animals. Human life is DUTY ( Dharma ). What is duty ? Duty is what you CAN do and what you SHOULD do. If something you CAN do but you SHOULD NOT do, then it s not your duty ( dharma). Similarly, if you SHOULD do but you CAN NOT do, then also it is not your duty. The example of some body getting born in Greenland , where no vegetarian food is feasible should be seen in this perspective. That man SHOULD eat vegetarian food but CAN NOT, and hence it is not his duty to be vegetarian. But the same thing is not applicable say in Australia or India, where vegetarian food is available. There same argument can not be applicable. 

That leaves "from when" portion to be answered. This is karma. I dare to state that ones who get born say in Greenland as humans may be just a step above the flesh eating animal forms, but by God's grace have got the privilege STILL of a human birth. ( I will not hesitate to put same argument for those also who CHOOSE to be non vegetarians. )They ,subject to limitations explained above reg DUTY, should still strive and they are still equally capable and eligible for all privileges which a human being enjoys having been given the honour of human birth by God's Grace. They still have VIVEKA in them , capable of getting awakened, and they are still at par with other humans at least with reference to moving up higher or not falling below, and even God Realisation or Liberation. They must capitalise on that and move HIGHER or at least not fall further from there !!!! If they fail to do, the next birth is obvious, categorically clear. Law of Karma does not leave any scope for doubt, I am sure, you get me. 

Hope above clearly and satisfactorily solves your query.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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यदि आप परमात्मतत्त्वको अजन्मा मानते हैं तो उसका अंश (जिसे आप आत्मा कह रहे हैं) जन्म ही कैसे ले सकता है? वह तो परमात्मतत्त्वसे अलग कभी न जन्मा था, न जन्मा है और न जन्मेगा।
फिर जन्मता (पहला या कोई सा भी जन्म) और मरता तो शरीर है, उसकी बात पूछिये।
यह कहना गलत है कि आत्माने इस (या उस) शरीरमें जन्म लिया। आत्मा अजन्मा है।
अस्तु,
सविनय,
साधक   

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Dear Divine,
There is no first time or last time for the eternal, omnipresent, omniscient energy, some call it soul, parmatma , supreme consciousness or whatever name you want to give to IT."He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval."BG2:20
The creation has only 2 part-Pusush(Parmatma/Cosmic Soul)  and Prakriti(Nature). They both are eternal companion.The whole creation is their eternal play.
Instead of identifying ourselves with Parmatma, we start identifying our selves with our body and mind(Nature). Due to powerful  rajas guna, we  fall into ignorance and this ignorant identity "Jeevatma" start its own journey of  liberation, consider itself doer and trap itself into cycle of birth /rebirth.
But we can get rid of this cycle whenever we want to!!!  Krishna said ,"Raise yourself by yourself..." BC6:5
"For one who has conquered the mind, Parmatma is already reached" BG6:7
May all good and auspicious things manifest in our lives...
Love and respect,
Sadhna

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श्री बसुदेब सेनजी से जिज्ञासा है :
आपके कथन when we happen to observe the soul in us में यह we क्या है? और वह soul क्या है? यह us किसके लिये प्रयुक्त हुआ है?
कृपया संक्षेपमें बतायें।
सविनय,
साधक  
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no first we were monkeys as per darwin theorey of evolution, you can  keenly observe a monkey and a human being at times human being behaves  like a monkey and elders say dont behave like a monkey  if we do good 100 percent in this birth definitely we will not be born  as animals or human being we will become god  purity is god  we are impure to the core  knowingly or un knowingly we commit rape, treachery, take bribe, tell  lies, steal, kill,abuse, hurt others, kill animal to eat and say non  vegetarian food has more strength, not allow the calf to drink the  milk of the cow and forcefully milk the cow  god bless you  swamiji -  SWAMI KRISHNANANDA

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Bhagwan Buddha has said that such questions have neither answers nor utility. He has given an example of someone wounded by arrow. Whether thought should first be applied where the arrow came from, what was the reason etc. or one should take steps to take out the arrow and dress the wound so that it can heal. Bhagwad Geeta has shown the way of total healing, We should focus our attention on healing rather than speculating.
Jayantilal Shah

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Dear Amit,
Thank you for such a provocative thought in your question. I do not know how old you are so that I could have conveniently suggested you to go through the translated version  of "Vivek Churamani" by Sahnkaracharya. I tell you honestly that I have gone through it, translated by Late Swami Lokeswaranda-ji of the Ramkrishna Mission. This will definitely give you the clue and at the end you yourself will find a total change in your life, if you can afford to bear that "change" you may go ahead.Best of luck, 

Barin Chatterjee

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Soul had been always there unceasingly: it was never born nor destroyed. Soul is where every thing rests and every thing contains the soul. Soul is always pure and clean but our ego and senses do not let us observe and see the soul. We see the Soul as Paramatma when we happen to observe the soul in us. It is infinite and unseparable from the Soul (God). Expeiencing the existence of living in the soul is the same thing as experiencing the existence of living in the Soul  Paramtama. Atman or soul is a mere analytical constuct to differentiate it from the Paramatma or Soul from the point of view of an individual: But they are actually the same: when one realises the soul, one realises the Soul.
 Basudeb Sen 

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I would like to add to this question and the mystery surrounding the soul.
In Toronto was a presentation on breaking the cycle of birth and death by a visiting Swami. If there is no birth, isn't logical there will be no death. And then everything else becomes useless.
When the Rsihis came up with the idea of a soul, DNA had existed but only become a fact the last 30 years. Why then isn't your soul your DNA. For DNA satisfies the Gita description of a soul.

Mangal Deolal 

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Jai Shri Ram,    After reading the answers I am bit more confused now.  Please clarify below.    1) Vyas NB ji,    <<Of course, every soul took birth first as human being and later fell into  cycle of birth and death >>    I agree with the above as it resolved my query as well It make the logic simple.    Conclusion:Every souls first took birth as human being and later according to  their karmas later they took birth of animals/creature.    But i discussed this with others and some are not agreeing with this logic.  according to Christianity ,some says that when God has finished the creation of  entire creature/animals then he felt like created some thing different & he  created Human being.    Actually my query arises from this statement only as our above logic failed over  here that first time soul took birth as human being.    2)Kuldeep Ji,    <<THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS "DESIRE" OR "WISH" OF A PARTICULAR SOUL TO SEE  HOW IT LOOKS LIKE AS also WISHED BY Praram Nirakar Bharm HIMSELF  AND ACCORDING  TO INDIVIDUAL SOUL WISH SELECTION, HE TAKES A BIRTH!! Exactly same way as in  present life, if you have any DESIRE with no physical, cultural, social,  political, religious or, any other bindings  then you would somehow try to  fulfill that DESIRE, come what may!>>    My question is when soul was having no past karma & it is pure then where is the  question of desire in Soul?  Does a pure soul can have desire? otherwise the question is how come the  impurity has arrived in a pure soul which has not taken any birth yet.    3)Murari Das:    Some time I agree with your point too. That there is no answer for this. As i  discussed with some Sadhak's(who are not in this forum) they dont agree with my  philospy (that every one took birth as a human being) but they also does not  have a concrete answer.    One Sadhak explained me below:  God from his own energy  made all creation. for god all is equal  bird animal rakshas dev. for you and me - there is distinction. we think one is  better than another.    Some how i agree with this point too but I get a feeling that God did some  partiality initially. As a animal/creature has to take many births to reach  human yoni.    Also Long back i asked the same question to a Isckon follower ,he is a preacher  in Isckon & he said that Krishna has created every one from his own will. If  some become animal its God's choice.    I think there were many answers,but many answeres lead me to think that God has  done some partiality while creating the Universe & I am not able to accept this.    Jai Shri Ram
Ami

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Hari Om

The Creation is stated to be ANAADI, beginning less. Of course, every soul took birth first as human being and later fell into cycle of birth and death , a cycle comprising of 84 lacs specie forms in terms of forms and comprising  Ages, Yugas, Mahayugas, Kalpas.. in terms of time.....!!! Human birth only is KARMA bhumi , rest all life forms are BHOGA life forms( for reaping results of deeds done in human life). The multitude of beings , which is subject to birth and death, from time immemorial, being a fraction of Lord, is eternal and imperishable. It remains the same , at the time of creation and dissolution...as also on new creation and final dissolution.  

A day of gods lasts men's six months and so does a night. Thus a year of the gods lasts 360 years of men. The duration of the four ages- Satya, Treta, Dwapar and Kali is equal to 4320000 years. It is also called as Mahayuga or Chaturyugi. Brahma's one day lasts a 1000 divine ages of gods ( men's 4320 million years) and so does his night. This day of Brahma is called " kalpa" or " Sarga" ( creation) and the night is called " pralaya" ( dissolution). With this standard of time, Brahma's age is of 100 years. Then, Brahma, after his span of time, merges into God, his world merges into nature and nature merges into God. 

All the worlds, from the abode of Brahma downwards, are subject to rebirth. But on attaining God, there is no rebirth. Divine abode is that whence there is no return.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 
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Peace,    I find this a question deeper than often is considered, consider the wolf, it  does exactly what it is meant for, dolphins intelligent, scientist believe that  these creatures are high among mammals. Ok so you say that man is capable to  leave flesh out of diet and finer points.  But if a woman/man is born in say Greenland, the way they  survive is eating fish/meat.  So people are it seem doomed to the weight of Karma, from when?    Om Shanti
Mike Keenor

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Dear Sadaks,
Only when a karma affects, birth taken. Ex: Naradh Rishi asked Sri Vishnu, "Why Bakthi is reducing on earth" When GOD is aware of everything, it is impertinent for Naradh Rishi to ask such a question. The question caused Karma. For Karma, Naradh Rishi was to be born as Puranderdoss.
B.S.
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There is no first time as time only starts with onset of creation, after creation resolves there is no time or space only Brahman 

Anil Aggarwal

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My dear Amit Ji & other Sadaks,    Mythological belief is that Param Nirakar Bharm is the absolute singular Reality  which, is also beyond Supreme Consciousness of existence. Since, it is HIS  Supreme Consciousness. It is said, he developed a desire to know as to how he  looks like, what he found answer as, is the physical, metaphysical and even meta  meta physical infinite universe(s) as outcome of his that desire.    The other saying from Lord Krishna himself in Bhagwat Gita, Chapter 10 Vibuti  Yoga, is that the entire Universe is maintained by his a small part (ANSH Matr)    With both the above references, it seems that there is no logical beginning or  end of universe(s) but, is eternal with no beginning or ending like circle.    Now with my own deep Chintan (Imaginational thinking & Logic) about this  question of first soul(s) business since my childhood, what I have felt is given  as under which, I hope would satisfy you to some extent:    Throwing out and away all that what is mythological, let us talk pure logic! Can  you imagine what exactly you are? Yes, why not... your physical shape of body  and memories in your brain represents you to all your friends, relatives, world  and to you as well! But, when you die, all says you are dead and may your soul  rest in peace. This clearly proves that neither you are body nor soul. Even, it  is said your consciousness, your spirit....so and so forth! Logically speaking  you are beyond comprehension. Funnily, so is God also beyond comprehension. This  is true for any & everything even nonliving thing. Everything is represented by  its properties and the thing in question is beyond comprehension. Further, I  think that what is beyond comprehension is Praram Nirakar Bharm. Probably, that  is why in our mythology, it is said KAN KAN MAIN BHAGWAN!    Well, coming to your main question of first soul(s) problem. Hypothetically, let  us suppose and imagine there is a beginning with first birth of all souls at one  time. Then, the correct question in this regard should be "How Infinite Souls  take births in various Yonis with no back log effect of previous Karmas in their  account?".    THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS "DESIRE" OR "WISH" OF A PARTICULAR SOUL TO SEE  HOW IT LOOKS LIKE AS also WISHED BY Praram Nirakar Bharm HIMSELF  AND ACCORDING  TO INDIVIDUAL SOUL WISH SELECTION, HE TAKES A BIRTH!! Exactly same way as in  present life, if you have any DESIRE with no physical, cultural, social,  political, religious or, any other bindings  then you would somehow try to  fulfill that DESIRE, come what may!    Lord Krishna has given similar answer to slightly different question very  logically in two verses of Bhagwad Gita:      YAM YAM VAPI SAMRAN BHAWAN,TAJE TANTE KALEVARAM!    TAM TAM EVITE KOVTAIE, SADA TAD BHAV BAVITA!!      ANT KALE CHE MAM EVE, SAMRAMNAM UKTAVA KALEVARAM!    YAPRYATI TAJEM DEHAM, SAYATI PARMAM GATIM!!    If any doubt, let me know    Narayana, Narayana    Kuldeep K. Kaul  
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You are indirectly asking following:

What is origin of soul in this material world?
What is ultimately beginning of time?
What is beginning of this creation?

Before I answer your questions, please answer following:

1) Can you find end of space? In mathematical terms, space has 3 dimensions (x, y, z). What is end of those dimensions?
2) What is beginning of time?

You will know that scientifically answers of #1 and #2 are infinity or indeterminate. 

Same applies to your questions. Absolute reality (soul) is devoid of space and time dimensions. Therefore, you cannot find any beginning of soul. Soul is supposed to be eternally in material world. It is called as anadi or no beginning. Same way, soul is beyond space. It is smaller than the smallest and also, it is said to be all-pervading. These statements try to convey that soul transcends space.

No words can explain these concepts. Ultimately, you have to experience your own self. Even though I am answering your questions, I would clarify that I don't realize them right now and I hope I will realize the true reality one day.

Regards,
Murari Das

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Sir,
'Query regarding soul and so on' is a thought. Can you see that thought is not all? Can you see that senses see, touch, listen and so on, breathing in and out is going on, there is memory and imagination and thoughts arising in the mind. Anger, fear, anxiety, happiness are the expressions of Life to keep the mind alive. This is the format of Life.

Nothing is sustainable in this world, neither any material or natural thing nor any emotion, idea, experience. There is continuous destruction and renewal. To see this is to connect to the self-sustained ground.
Continuous unpredictable change is the Truth. What causes the change? It is again a thought ‘about’ change. The inevitability of change silences the brain. One is one with ‘what is happening’. There is no one separate to comment upon, judge ‘what is happening’.

Y V Chawla

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Dear Amit,
This is the most meaningful q I read in this group's procedings. I will an swer you in a shortwhile. Before that I suggest you read Origen's first principles. Though it is written by a blind follower of Christianity, it deals with the answer to your querry. I promise I will write th ereply to your Q soon, as right now I am a bit handicapped and do not have the reference books with me ( I am in an Arab land)/ Meanwhile carry on the curiosity
Krishna Samudrala

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