Monday, July 1, 2013

[gita-talk] Query regarding the first birth of a soul

 

Dear Sadhak's,

When the soul first time took birth at that time it was not having any past karmas and they all were pure like God.

My question is when there was not any past karmas then on what basis some souls got birth as animal/insects etc. and some got birth as human being.


Or  every souls first took birth as human being and later according to their karmas later they took birth of animals/creature.

Hope my question is clear to you, please also correct my understanding if it is incorrect as stated in above lines.


Jai Shri Ram 

Amit Gupta

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यदि आप परमात्मतत्त्वको अजन्मा मानते हैं तो उसका अंश (जिसे आप आत्मा कह रहे हैं) जन्म ही कैसे ले सकता है? वह तो परमात्मतत्त्वसे अलग कभी न जन्मा था, न जन्मा है और न जन्मेगा।
फिर जन्मता (पहला या कोई सा भी जन्म) और मरता तो शरीर है, उसकी बात पूछिये।
यह कहना गलत है कि आत्माने इस (या उस) शरीरमें जन्म लिया। आत्मा अजन्मा है।
अस्तु,
सविनय,
साधक   

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Soul had been always there unceasingly: it was never born nor destroyed. Soul is where every thing rests and every thing contains the soul. Soul is always pure and clean but our ego and senses do not let us observe and see the soul. We see the Soul as Paramatma when we happen to observe the soul in us. It is infinite and unseparable from the Soul (God). Expeiencing the existence of living in the soul is the same thing as experiencing the existence of living in the Soul  Paramtama. Atman or soul is a mere analytical constuct to differentiate it from the Paramatma or Soul from the point of view of an individual: But they are actually the same: when one realises the soul, one realises the Soul.
 Basudeb Sen 

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Hari Om

The Creation is stated to be ANAADI, beginning less. Of course, every soul took birth first as human being and later fell into cycle of birth and death , a cycle comprising of 84 lacs specie forms in terms of forms and comprising  Ages, Yugas, Mahayugas, Kalpas.. in terms of time.....!!! Human birth only is KARMA bhumi , rest all life forms are BHOGA life forms( for reaping results of deeds done in human life). The multitude of beings , which is subject to birth and death, from time immemorial, being a fraction of Lord, is eternal and imperishable. It remains the same , at the time of creation and dissolution...as also on new creation and final dissolution.  

A day of gods lasts men's six months and so does a night. Thus a year of the gods lasts 360 years of men. The duration of the four ages- Satya, Treta, Dwapar and Kali is equal to 4320000 years. It is also called as Mahayuga or Chaturyugi. Brahma's one day lasts a 1000 divine ages of gods ( men's 4320 million years) and so does his night. This day of Brahma is called " kalpa" or " Sarga" ( creation) and the night is called " pralaya" ( dissolution). With this standard of time, Brahma's age is of 100 years. Then, Brahma, after his span of time, merges into God, his world merges into nature and nature merges into God. 

All the worlds, from the abode of Brahma downwards, are subject to rebirth. But on attaining God, there is no rebirth. Divine abode is that whence there is no return.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 
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Peace,    I find this a question deeper than often is considered, consider the wolf, it  does exactly what it is meant for, dolphins intelligent, scientist believe that  these creatures are high among mammals. Ok so you say that man is capable to  leave flesh out of diet and finer points.  But if a woman/man is born in say Greenland, the way they  survive is eating fish/meat.  So people are it seem doomed to the weight of Karma, from when?    Om Shanti
Mike Keenor

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Dear Sadaks,
Only when a karma affects, birth taken. Ex: Naradh Rishi asked Sri Vishnu, "Why Bakthi is reducing on earth" When GOD is aware of everything, it is impertinent for Naradh Rishi to ask such a question. The question caused Karma. For Karma, Naradh Rishi was to be born as Puranderdoss.
B.S.
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There is no first time as time only starts with onset of creation, after creation resolves there is no time or space only Brahman 

Anil Aggarwal

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My dear Amit Ji & other Sadaks,    Mythological belief is that Param Nirakar Bharm is the absolute singular Reality  which, is also beyond Supreme Consciousness of existence. Since, it is HIS  Supreme Consciousness. It is said, he developed a desire to know as to how he  looks like, what he found answer as, is the physical, metaphysical and even meta  meta physical infinite universe(s) as outcome of his that desire.    The other saying from Lord Krishna himself in Bhagwat Gita, Chapter 10 Vibuti  Yoga, is that the entire Universe is maintained by his a small part (ANSH Matr)    With both the above references, it seems that there is no logical beginning or  end of universe(s) but, is eternal with no beginning or ending like circle.    Now with my own deep Chintan (Imaginational thinking & Logic) about this  question of first soul(s) business since my childhood, what I have felt is given  as under which, I hope would satisfy you to some extent:    Throwing out and away all that what is mythological, let us talk pure logic! Can  you imagine what exactly you are? Yes, why not... your physical shape of body  and memories in your brain represents you to all your friends, relatives, world  and to you as well! But, when you die, all says you are dead and may your soul  rest in peace. This clearly proves that neither you are body nor soul. Even, it  is said your consciousness, your spirit....so and so forth! Logically speaking  you are beyond comprehension. Funnily, so is God also beyond comprehension. This  is true for any & everything even nonliving thing. Everything is represented by  its properties and the thing in question is beyond comprehension. Further, I  think that what is beyond comprehension is Praram Nirakar Bharm. Probably, that  is why in our mythology, it is said KAN KAN MAIN BHAGWAN!    Well, coming to your main question of first soul(s) problem. Hypothetically, let  us suppose and imagine there is a beginning with first birth of all souls at one  time. Then, the correct question in this regard should be "How Infinite Souls  take births in various Yonis with no back log effect of previous Karmas in their  account?".    THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS "DESIRE" OR "WISH" OF A PARTICULAR SOUL TO SEE  HOW IT LOOKS LIKE AS also WISHED BY Praram Nirakar Bharm HIMSELF  AND ACCORDING  TO INDIVIDUAL SOUL WISH SELECTION, HE TAKES A BIRTH!! Exactly same way as in  present life, if you have any DESIRE with no physical, cultural, social,  political, religious or, any other bindings  then you would somehow try to  fulfill that DESIRE, come what may!    Lord Krishna has given similar answer to slightly different question very  logically in two verses of Bhagwad Gita:      YAM YAM VAPI SAMRAN BHAWAN,TAJE TANTE KALEVARAM!    TAM TAM EVITE KOVTAIE, SADA TAD BHAV BAVITA!!      ANT KALE CHE MAM EVE, SAMRAMNAM UKTAVA KALEVARAM!    YAPRYATI TAJEM DEHAM, SAYATI PARMAM GATIM!!    If any doubt, let me know    Narayana, Narayana    Kuldeep K. Kaul  
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You are indirectly asking following:

What is origin of soul in this material world?
What is ultimately beginning of time?
What is beginning of this creation?

Before I answer your questions, please answer following:

1) Can you find end of space? In mathematical terms, space has 3 dimensions (x, y, z). What is end of those dimensions?
2) What is beginning of time?

You will know that scientifically answers of #1 and #2 are infinity or indeterminate. 

Same applies to your questions. Absolute reality (soul) is devoid of space and time dimensions. Therefore, you cannot find any beginning of soul. Soul is supposed to be eternally in material world. It is called as anadi or no beginning. Same way, soul is beyond space. It is smaller than the smallest and also, it is said to be all-pervading. These statements try to convey that soul transcends space.

No words can explain these concepts. Ultimately, you have to experience your own self. Even though I am answering your questions, I would clarify that I don't realize them right now and I hope I will realize the true reality one day.

Regards,
Murari Das

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Sir,
'Query regarding soul and so on' is a thought. Can you see that thought is not all? Can you see that senses see, touch, listen and so on, breathing in and out is going on, there is memory and imagination and thoughts arising in the mind. Anger, fear, anxiety, happiness are the expressions of Life to keep the mind alive. This is the format of Life.

Nothing is sustainable in this world, neither any material or natural thing nor any emotion, idea, experience. There is continuous destruction and renewal. To see this is to connect to the self-sustained ground.
Continuous unpredictable change is the Truth. What causes the change? It is again a thought ‘about’ change. The inevitability of change silences the brain. One is one with ‘what is happening’. There is no one separate to comment upon, judge ‘what is happening’.

Y V Chawla

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Dear Amit,
This is the most meaningful q I read in this group's procedings. I will an swer you in a shortwhile. Before that I suggest you read Origen's first principles. Though it is written by a blind follower of Christianity, it deals with the answer to your querry. I promise I will write th ereply to your Q soon, as right now I am a bit handicapped and do not have the reference books with me ( I am in an Arab land)/ Meanwhile carry on the curiosity
Krishna Samudrala

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