Monday, June 24, 2013

[gita-talk] Who is Arjuna in the Gita - Need Clarification !

 

Everything is appearing jumbled up.

On one hand Swamiji says - "We must not even keep a resolve" then on the other
hand he says "in doing we must be careful"
In Gita too on one hand Krishna says "Karmanyevaadhikaaraste..." (2/47), "Your
right is to work only,"(2/47) , then on the other hand he says "Na karoti na
lipyate...." " it neither acts nor gets tainted."
Swamiji says "doing is also karma, and not doing is also karma" I understand
this, however, when the "self" does not do is it the experiencer, then who
does Krishna say to that "your right is only in doing your duty (karma)? In
other words, in Gita who is this Arjuna? (spirit or the body).
In pictures everywhere, you only see his body listening to the instructions from
the Gita.

Humbly, Sadhak

IN HINDI

सब कुछ गड्ड-मड्ड हो रहा है।
एक ओर स्वामीजीने कहा है,''अपना संकल्प भी नहीं रखना है।'' फिर दूसरी ओर कहा है,''करनेमें सावधानी रखनी है।''
गीतामें भी एक ओर कृष्णने कहा है,''कर्मण्येवाधिकारस्ते ...'' (२:४७), फिर दूसरी ओर कहा है,''न करोति न लिप्यते ..."
स्वामीजीने कहा है,''करना भी कर्म है और न करना भी कर्म है।'' यह तो समझमें आता है, किन्तु जब स्वयं न करता है
और न भोगता है तो कृष्णने किसे कहा है कि कर्म करनेमें ही तेरा अधिकार है? अर्थात गीतामें यह अर्जुन कौन है? [आत्मा अथवा शरीर]
चित्रोंमें सब जगह उसका शरीर ही दिखाया गया है गीताका उपदेश लेते।
सविनय,
साधक 

---------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna. 

This is in response to a comment from a Sadhaka regarding my earlier response. Fellow Sadhaka mentioned in his response that Krishna is not Arjuna since Krishna is a Yaduvamsi and Arjuna is a Kshatriya ,Pandava. 

I would like to mention a couple of points. 

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,

" Pandavanam Dhananjayaha. "
          (Gitaji 10, 37)
'Which clearly means, of the Pandavas I am Arjuna.'
Arjuna is Krishna's form. That is the reason we call them  ' NARA NARAYAN'

Second point I want to mention is that when it comes to The Lord, there is no caste. He is above and beyond all of that. Lord Krishna is Yaduvamsi in that incarnation. When He appeared as Lord Rama, He was a Kshatriya . When He appeared as Vamana, He was a Brahmana. As Lord Krishna mentioned in the fourth chapter, Jnana Yoga, whenever Dharmam goes down and,Adharmam goes up, then He will appear on this earth to save us from the evil. 


This is a great discussion group and I love to be a part of this Satsang. 

Thank You. 

Hare Krishna. 

Prasad A. Iragavarapu,, MD

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Shree Vyas NBjee!
Saadhaka still amazed to learn (from you) that Soul, which is said (by Krishna also) to be ''ansh'' of Paramaatmaa can be termed Pure (and impure) when Paramaatmaa is beyond all dualities (Purity and Impurity) so how ''ansh'' can be different from Paramaatmaa?
Humbly,
Saadhaka

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It is both body and spirit. 

Koti Sreekrishna

-----------------------------------------------------

Shree Kuldeepjee!
Swamijee says,''man to jad hai. usako apanaa mat maano.'
Krishna also says,''you (Arjun) surrender ..." Krishna never asked to surrender
or train the mind.
Shree Vyas NB jee!
Pure Soul relates to ''na karoti na lipyate ..." right.
What is Pure (Soul) that can never be tainted so its being converted into Jeeva
(tainted) is beyond comprehension.
Humbly,
Saadhaka

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--------

Hari Om    The questions and observations by Humbleji Sir never cease to gladden your  heart. Aha...what a question. SIR AAP MAHAAN HAIN !!!    Shree Vyas NB jee!  What is this Jeeva? If Arjun is Jeeva, then all pictures of Arjun in books  published by Gita Press are absurd as that Jeeva has been pictured as a human  being. How shall you picture a Jeeva? Please tell Gita Press also.    Jeeva is "embodied soul".....a soul connected with a body...!!! Arjuna is  definitely a Jeeva in Holy Gita. AAP GITA PRESS GORAKHPUR KE PEECHHE LAATHI  LEKAR KYON DAUD RAHE HAIN, MAANYAVAR MAHODAY ? Picture published by Gita Press  Gorakhpur is representative of the Jeeva Arjuna. Since every Jeeva has body, the  photo is reflecting the body.  AB AAP HI BATAAIYE ...HEY HUMBLEJI MAHARAAJ....KI  MAIN GITA PRESS WALO KO KAISE BOL SAKTA HOON? Kyaa bolun ? Photographs of Arjuna  are not absurd, Hey Mahaashay, our understanding as to what is Jeeva may be  somewhat so !!! A Jeeva can be a human being also. When you have body of a human  , you are human being. By the way, Humbleji Maharaaj, AAP BHI EK JEEVA HAIN, AUR  AAP BHI HUMAN BEING HAIN, TO KYAA AAPKA PHOTOGRAPH NAHIN LIYA JAA SAKTA ? JUST  AS: You can be photographed SIMILARLY:  Arjuna also an be depicted vide a  photograph.
HEY NARSHRESHTHA ! AAP RAMU VEMPATYJI KO GALAT NAHIN BATA SAKTE. ARJUNA KE LIYE CALF KI UPAADHI BADI HI SATEEK, SAHI, VILAKSHAN, SUNDAR, BADHIA  EVAM SHASHTRA SAMMAT HAI. Did you not notice in opening recitations of Swamiji before every pravachan ?....GITAMRIT DUHE NAMAH ?? Prasadji also did not write anything wrong. Your intellect picked a subtle fault. Same God is present in same manner with mankind also. Sure...Krishna and Arjuna were not same in Gita. But Prasadji just reflected his sentiment...nothing wrong there too. BASUDEVJI THEEK BOLE HAIN - KUCHH BHI GALAT NAHIN BOLE ! PADHANE KA TO BOLENGE HI ! VAAJIB BAAT HAI NAA ? MESSAGE PADHATE TO TAKLEEF HI KAHAAN THEE ?  Arjuna is neither Body nor soul. Arjuna is Jeeva !!! 

HEY MAHATMA...KYAA AAP UPROKTA UTTAR SE SANTUSHT HAIN ?  HAM SAB AAPKI SEVA MAIN SADAIVA TATPAR RAHENGE, HEY JEEVA !!!!
  Jai Shree Krishna    Vyas N B

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Hari Om

Pure Soul ( Self) has power to associate /disassociate. Your incomprehension as
to the reasons of connecting is useless ( Actual reason as per Scriptures is
Agyaan - nescience. From Sadhak point of view the actual reason is: Importance
to worldly pleasures and insistence on / desire for consuming worldly pleasures
and accumulation)

Instead of going into reasons as to why Pure Self at the outset, connected with
or adopted the Jagat millions of years ago, the time of present human life
should be applied in disconnecting with Jagat ....now at least. Said Swamiji: It
is a useless question as to why dirt touched your cloths, how and when...SADHAK
should concentrate on removing the dirt rather than making enquiry into the
reasons of connection.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B


-------------------------------------------------



Every thing gets jumbled up because we do not look at the messages carefully.
What Krishna says is that none can be without work. The inherent gunas and the
environment will force each entity to work most natural for each. There is no
way to avoid work: inaction is impossible. He says next the outcome from work/
action does not depend only on the work or the action for any action is done in
a background, a context and under circumstances that consists of actions of so
many entities and elements in the environment of a person. So, he says, to worry
about the consequences or results of work or action, though natural amon human
beings, is pointless. Third, He says that given the above the only way to deal
with the dilemmas of choosing actions is not to worry about consequences but do
what one is inclined to do as per one's own natural property (dharma) in the
context of the emerging environment. Since, a Kshatrya has only one property
inherent in him in the emerging situation of War - that of fighting as best as
he can, Arjun should fight and not waste time and energy worrying about the
consequences of fighting. It is best to submit all worries to God by submitting
all actions to God and remove the ego that one is really deciding to dio and
really act on his own. The belief should be that whatever one does is what God
has willed through the natural system of imparting gunas (properties, attributes
and inclinations) to each person. That is the best way of perfrominh work: Karmo
Yoga.
It is so simple and so bluntly true. There is no scope for confusion except the
natural human property or guna to get confused as did Arjuna find.
Basudeb Sen
---------------------------------------------------------

Here is an excerpt from Sringeri Jagadguru's Bhashan ...

The Jagadguru said that Srimad Bhagavad Gita that carries the essence of the
Upanishads, was given by the Lord using Arjuna as an instrument. That is why it
is said:
सर्वोपनिषदो गावः दोग्धा गोपालनन्दनः ।
पार्थो वत्सः सुधीर्भोक्ता दुग्धं गीतामृतं महत् ॥
Here, Arjuna is compared to a calf that drinks the milk of Gita from the cow of
the Upanishads, with Bhagavan Sri Krishna being the milker. Arjuna is called the
calf because the calf is the first to get milk from its mother. Subsequently,
the cow gives milk to everyone else. Similarly, every Astika is capable of
savouring the milk that is nectar of the Gita.

Ramu Vempati

------------------------------------------------------------------------

You either as a body or soul are the doer or not doer of a karma, instead your
intention for an outcome is the doer of the karma through you as a medium or
Nimit. Your problem arises of jumbling when you are attached to outcome of a
karma or take up the responsibility of doing a karma which your intention has
caused you to do. Simply ascribe and bestow the outcome of your karmas to the
respective intentions of the karmas, and be liberated is the soul message of
Gita.
Always remain Nimit.
Dr Ay Ky Mukhi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
----------------

Dear Sadaks,
Harishchandra knowing his wife in disguise at cremation grounds with his dead
son, demanded cremation charges with his penny-less wife. That is Karma Yog
B.S.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
--

Humble submission :

Shree Basudeb Senjee!
Your first sentence is : Every thing gets jumbled up because we do not look at
the messages carefully.
Please explain first who is this we? Body or Soul?
Shree Ramu Vempatijee!
Nowhere in Gita itself, Arjun has been compared as calf of a cow. Question was
Who is Arjun? A Soul or A Body?
Prasad A Iragavarapujee!
You are wrong. In Saadhaka Sanjeevanee Swamijee says : Bhagwanane Arjunako
apanee vibhooti bataayaa hai NOT that Arjun is Krishna. Moreover Krishna was
Yaduvanshi, NOT a Paandava.
Shree Vyas NB jee!
What is this Jeeva? If Arjun is Jeeva, then all pictures of Arjun in books
published by Gita Press are absurd as that Jeeva has been pictured as a human
being. How shall you picture a Jeeva? Please tell Gita Press also.
Humbly,
Saadhaka
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Confused Sadak Ji & ALL,
Namaskar!
No, nothing is jumbled! There appears somewhat misunderstanding of the words
Lord Krishna has said in Bhagvadgita. The first saying "Karmne va Adhikarashte"
is for the Mind and intellect cover (Manomai Kosha, one of the five Koshas Lord
is covered with to become a JEEVA) Lord in you is carrying while; second part
"Na karoti na lipyate...." for the Lord itself. Meaning, all physical & cultural
rules and regulations are set and effected by mind only while Lord which is
beyond mind is not touched by those set all physical & cultural rules and
regulations.
So to conclude, I would say Arjuna is nothing but Mind of Lord which need be
trained
KULDEEP.K. KAUL
-------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka regarding Arjuna.

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavadgita,
"Pandavanam Dhananjayaha"
Gitaji(10, 37)
Which means
'Of all the Pandavas, Krishna ,Himself is Arjuna. '

Then the question would be, did He preach Bhagavadgita to Himself.

The reason Arjuna asked these questions is , not for himself but he wants us ,
the mankind to know.

In Gnana Yoga,
The Lord Krishna says,
" Imam vivaswate yogam,
Prokta vanahamavyayam
Vivaswanmanave Praha
Manurikshvakave braveet"
Gitaji(4, 1)
Which means,
' Lord Krishna preached this yogam to Vivaswan who is Sun God. Sun God preached
this to Manuvu and Manuvu preached this to Ikshvaku. '
But this is lost in time. Hence Lord Krishna preached this to Arjuna. The main
purpose of this preaching is,for the mankind to know.
Let us enjoy this Divine scripture, practice it, preach it and advance
spiritually which will take us to His Abode, in the end.

Thank You.

Prasad A.Iragavarapu, MD

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

dont break your mind
everything is okay just think of god in every
beath that is it he will help if you have faith, doubting things will
not take you anywhere
god bless you
swamiji

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

You are not distinguishing between "PURE SELF" ( AATMA) and "JEEVA" ( embodied
soul) properly. In interpretation and understanding of Gita, the distinction
between Pure Self and Jeeva should always be kept in mind. "In doing one must be
careful" - this statement is with reference to Jeeva ! "NA KAROTI NA LIPYATE" is
with reference to PURE SELF.

In Gita , Arjuna is Jeeva ( embodied soul). KARMANYE VA ADHIKARASTE is with
reference to Jeeva.

There is no conflict also between " we must not even keep a resolve" and BG
2:47 ! " Resolve" here means KAAMNA ( sankalpa). You can do Karma without
KAAMANA also.


Yes....! Inspite of Self being fundamentally not doer, since he has accepted
affinity with body, he suffers the experiences. Actually, self has no capacity
to do. It has only one capability: To accept or to reject ( other words
frequently used in Scriptures: to connect/disconnect; to associate/
disassociate; to adopt/ renounce etc). Self has power of "acceptance".
Experience comes to him as effortless result of utilisation of power of
"acceptance/rejection" by him. Self has a permanent guide....VIVEKA. Self can
heed to its voice and take a call by rejecting false acceptance, or by correctly
accepting the truth. ( It is another matter THT Jeeva frequently disregards
VIVEKA and relies upon mind/ intellect which are false...and thereby suffers,
suffers and...suffers). So long as, Self does not correctly utilise his power
to accept/reject, sorrowful or delightful experiences will continue to become
part of his direct experiences because it is a law: Experience follows
acceptance. World appears to you as you have accepted it to be. God also
approaches you, exactly as you have approached Him. Hence it is a law. You
become BHOKTA, if you assume yourself to be KARTA...naturally and automatically.

JUST AS: While two cars , made of steel ( inert) collide with each other,
causing an accident on the road, they do not get punished by law. Punishment is
given to the Drivers ( sentient) of the cars, because they formed affinity with
the cars.

SIMILARLY: While bad actions are done by the body ( inert) , the consequential
experiences of sorrows accrue to Self ( sentient). Self experiences then the
sorrows, because Self formed affinity with body ( accepted the body to be
me/mine).

Are you clear Dear Sir ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------------------Shree hari
Ram Ram

Arjuna is none other than you and me. God is directly speaking and
communicating with us through his words (the Gita).

Just as Arjuna listens to the Lord's command, we too must do the same.



In bhaarata and Gita Arjuna "represents" a human being who is by nature in
Dvividha or Dilemma. Using Arjuna as an example (nimitta maatra) Bhagavad gita
elucidates how a human ought to live particularly in utilizing his talent and
duty. KarmaNi eva adhikaaraste means your duty is to act. That action shd be
done as duty and not for enjoyment of the fruit. Fight as it is your duty to
resist evil rule of Kauravas but not think of the royal comforts that accrue to
you as a result of the fight. Bheeshma and others are decent peopl, no doubt but
they have been bitten by a false sense of fidelity and hence they are dharma
chyuta. The dharma champion shd not grieve for them. In fact they are dead as
soon as they sided with adharma.
I am afraid I do not know what swamiji said in this context.
This is mt answer to "who is arjuna in Gita?"

Samudrala Krishna

----------------------------------------------------------------

One acts and seek relief through the result as if action is compulsion. Can one
see that this relief is illusory?
Whatever calculations you may make, whatever information you may collect-you can
not escape or undo the unknown-the margin between action and outcome. To be
comfortable with this margin is your attunement to the Original, to all
possibilities. Now any action or no-action is relaxed and conscious.
Y V Chawla


-------------------------------------------------------------

Oh !Honourable Sadhak
Siyarammaya Sabjag Jani Karahun Pranam Jodi Jug Pani !
I know Nothing and I had been Inspired by U too.But I Think U are not asking but
only making us to think about Shastra.Now I am coveted to write Some thing.There
is nothing Jumbled up.we have nothing to resolve if there seemed resolved or
headed to do something then there is necessasary to be Cautious(SABDHAN).The
body does not stay without doing somethimg but we need not worry about it
because if we are not joined with doing or undoing something then only the
Nature(PRAKRUTI) is Doer(Karta) and then we are not credited of it.when we do
nothing or think nothing then automatically we are merged or engrossed in God
Parmatma but if we can not stay without thinking or doing something then it is
necessary to think about god and do the work of god-That is all.There are some
Compulsory action Like Nittya Karma and Naimittik Karma-In my opinion (I do not
know-How far I am Right) Only the duty of ours is to be ready for Gods
work-Whether the cercumstance may complete it or not.I am Nepali and can not
Express in Good English and all the criticism on my Knowledge concerning to
English Knowledge and Scriptural Knowledge are Welcome ! Please Accept my Bow to
your Lotus feet !
Basudev

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

You are not distinguishing between "PURE SELF" ( AATMA) and "JEEVA" ( embodied
soul) properly. In interpretation and understanding of Gita, the distinction
between Pure Self and Jeeva should always be kept in mind. "In doing one must be
careful" - this statement is with reference to Jeeva ! "NA KAROTI NA LIPYATE" is
with reference to PURE SELF.

In Gita , Arjuna is Jeeva ( embodied soul). KARMANYE VA ADHIKARASTE is with
reference to Jeeva.

There is no conflict also between " we must not even keep a resolve" and BG
2:47 ! " Resolve" here means KAAMNA ( sankalpa). You can do Karma without
KAAMANA also.

Are you clear Dear Sir ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhak,
Hare Krishna

The same questions were mine but twenty years back. It seems that Shri Gita
is ambiguous but now everything is as clear as crystal. God Krishna is
absolutely right and His Preachings in Shri Gita are absolute Truth.Just immerse
in the Holy Deep Nectar Ocean of Shri Gita. God Krishna Himself will explain you
in very easy way. Just surrender yourself at the Lotus Feet of My Lovely God
Shri Krishna.

You are Arjun--the seeker of Knowledge Nectar.
Best of Luck

Mahesh Sharma
New Delhi

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CAREFUL RESOLVE FOR GOOD JOB WITHOUT FEAR&FAVOUR INORDER TO ESTABLISH RULE/LAW
&FIGHT AGAINST POWER HUNGRY/ SELFISH WAS REQUIRED WHICH ARJUNA THE WARRIER COULD
REALISE AFTERHEARING FROM LORD KRISHNA. ARJUNA IS A CHARACTER NATURE WHO WAS
TAUGHT TO FOLLOW PATH OF RIGHTOUSNESS BY THE LORD .

N. PANDA

--------------------------------------------------------------------
see the different references one thing is said.
same words has different meaning according to context, like the hindi words :
roko mat jane do.
&
roko mat jane do.

for learning gita, it is better to know krishna first, through sri bhaagwatam
mahapurana and mahabharata.
humbly
daasaanudaas
shri krishna-daas kinkar

-----------------------------------------------------



It is NOT your fault (!?) as, with is known that the users being addicted to
"gross" meaning of everything in their lives and have neither seriously (ie.
chintan, manan & nidhiasan) studied the scriptures (e.g. Gita- Chapter 2) nor
tried to do any pursharth towards attaining or making the TRUTH of it as their
life....BUT; take the easier way-out to either find "fault" or give it a meaning
which suits/fits-in one's test/habit...or.... likes to have everthing of it on a
platter.

Perhaps I can put it in a more simpler way...i.e., if you are an Engineer or
IT-expert , HOW you can be one (?), that progressively one achieves as is
stated above and not only by expressibng views or talking about it. Therefore,
according to me, any definition of such a scripture like BhaghwatGita, needs
first to have a SatGuru (selfless and non-possesive) as our teacher and me/you
as his disciple as "learner".

Humbly Yours....

Kishin Chandiramani

-------------------------------------------------

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