Shree Hari Ram Ram
Recently a highly spiritual, very young sadhak said the following to us.
"I am not very interested in providing answers to any sadhak's questions. On
one hand we ourselves do not properly understand the point completely and
secondly, the person who we are telling, his attention is not on attempting to
understand, but more on cutting the opposite party. This is what is happening
nowadays. If that same individual finds the same thing by himself, while
reading in a particular book, he honors it and gives it due consideration.
However he will not give due consideration to it, in the form of a question and
answer session. This is my personal experience. It is the same in my case,
where I value and respect what I read in books."
We may want to look at how to proceed with this group and where we can add
value, as it appears that many questioners are not quite satisfied with the
We welcome suggestions.......
Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
Questions should be restricted to concepts dealt with in Geeta. Questioner
should clearly state that while reading this holy text, I am unable to
understand meaning or how to implement study of Geeta in life with Spiritual and
Material advantage; or else I am faced with this problem and seeking advice from
participants how to solve this or face this in accordance with teachings of
Geeta. Any question outside the text although may be important in some other
context, should be discouraged. As Gandhiji and Vinobaji have summarised by
exhaustively studying the book and making sincere efforts to live up to it, and
have categorically stated that there is no question in life either political,
social , health problem or spiritual development whose solution is not found in
Bhagwad Geeta. I confirm this statement independently by my experience of last
I was brought up in Saurashtra then Kathiawar ruled by number of native princes.
Maharaja Bhagwatsinhji of Gondal under whose jurisdiction my town Dhoraji came,
was deeply immersed in teachings of Bhagwad Geeta. As our school which was
affiliated to then Mumbai University did not have place for Geeta in curriculum
till Matriculation, he introduced Bhagwad Geeta as an optional subject from
Std.6 onwards. To encourage students to learn Geeta, he even instituted a scheme
of scholarships to those who opted for this subject.
I write this to state that he was greatly influenced by Gandhiji work in many
fields like political, social and spiritual and emphatic statement of Gandhiji
that Geeta provided solutions to questions in all fields of life.
Hence in this Satsang Group, questions should be restricted to Bhagwad Geeta
only or any question asked by Sadhaks should be replied by citing authentic
verse from Bhagwad Geeta. Also wherever possible, questioner should contact the
answerer to develop further.
Moving individually on spiritual path is not that easy as walking in a park.
When one finds it difficult to take the group (masses) on walking in a park as
per own norms, what ease is there on spiritual path for it?
Humble suggestion is, pick up all good found in satsang for own good use instead
of trying to lead the group in any direction [Someone read on entrance of a
satsang hall - krupayaa jnaanakee baaten yahaan na karen, yahaan aanewaale
sabhee ekase badhakar ek jnaanee hain].
Better it would be to move with the group and not to try to move the group with
yourself, letting go all that is not agreeable to your own norms.
>> On one hand we ourselves do not properly understand the point completely and
>> secondly, the person who we are telling, his attention is not on attempting to
>> understand, but more on cutting the opposite party.
Is the person who wrote the comment trying to force his views on the questioner or other readers? Does this person understand the point himself? Is this person respectful to questioner's views?
I can take my example. I agree with most views expressed in sadhak messages. But I cannot agree with exploitation of weak people based on race, caste, gender, sexual orientation or any other outwardly attribute. One example is caste system practiced by Hindus. I don't agree with the position of women in Hindu society. Some followers also try to deny happiness and become depressed in name of sense control. I believe that spirituality and dharma is supposed to increase happiness of the self, family and the whole society. One should not use dharma to propagate suffering, unhappiness and cruelty.
If someone propagates above views and forces upon others, then I cannot agree with that person. It becomes serious if some commentator (like Vyas) who appears to be quite knowledgeable of Gita propagates these kinds of views. Such person cannot force us or any other sadhak to accept something which is against their conscience.
Sri Sankracarya writes in Bhaj Govindam:
The same God dwells in absolutely everyone, where is the reason for any disagreement. Bar none. See the identical soul in everyone. Come off your conditioning.
Lets see the identical soul in everyone and respect other views. Lets respect those who don't understand Gita and trying to do it. We don't have to understand all the topics perfectly. We have this birth and many other births. So, lets look at eternity of the self and not get frustrated and not be judgmental towards others.
So long as the Questioner is willing to attend and respond , let us tell him about the truth. The moment he does KUTARKA ( bad arguments) , I will tell him this is KUTARKA, and stop responding. His last message Kutarkas are ignored. (see details in thread - Main Obstacle to God Realization is Attraction to Sense Pleasures).
Answers to your further Qs will be given only upon receipt of response by you to the above.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
Your very highly spiritual and very young Sadhak is right. No one on this earth,
including God Himself can make another person understand/accept something, if
that another person is not willing to understand or accept. Saints, Scriptures,
Teachers, Satsangis can tell you truth, but to accept the same or not IS THE
SOLE RESPONSIBILITY AND WILL of the individual. Revered Swamiji once stated the
characteristics of a fool...He said: A fool has two traits- 1 He himself does
not know / understand ( KHUD JAANATA NAHIN) 2 He does not heed to the others (
DOOSARE KI MAANATA NAHIN ) !!! One who has these two qualities is called FOOL.
Some listener asked then to Him: Swamiji...persons with above two qualities are
in abundance, in every home...now how to make them understand the truth..because
even if God Himself comes and tells him the truth, a fool will not understand
because he does not heed others, and God is other. Great Saint smiled and
replied: MOORKHANAAM AUSHADHAM DANDAM ( only medicine to cure a fool is
punishment ). Hence it is Mother Nature only which produces a punishment for a
fool and that only can cure the person with above characteristics. There are
many verses in Holy Gita also which define persons of the above two typical
traits. BG 16:8 / 9 and 18:32 readily come to memory.
I request Moderators to continue with this thread till the Questioner is fully
satisfied. I request the Questioner to freely deliberate on the subject and give
reasons for non acceptance. Whatever you have stated so far, We shall try to
answer. Problem is singular: No one can make other accept a thing. We can
deliberate, argue, but acceptance is sole prerogative of SOUL. Do you know Dear
Questioner that SELF can only accept or reject and can do nothing else? Are you
aware about this...? Know now this fact through this Divine Satsanga
Forum...!!!! Nothing in this world, no body can make other accept or reject. You
YOURSELF only can accept or reject. Still we shall try to give reasons to you so
that realisation may dawn upon you, God willing.
1 SHRUTIS say : EKAKI NA RAMATE ( God did not relish being alone). Hence out of
Himself only He created this Universe for PREM . All Jeevas are direct fragment
of God. Your Q is what is the cause of Creation of this world. Answer is : PREM
( Love). He created the world for PREM.
2 How can you say that by God Realisation you do not get enriched? Have you
realised God? No...! Then where is basis for your statement? Experiences arise
out of acceptance effortlessly...It is a law. Acceptance is the only cause for
your experiences. argue on this law...if you can !!! A thing which arises
effortlessly can not be your goal. Your goal has to be acceptance of TRUTH. Can
there be any better experience than the experience of PREM? Tell me...! This
PREM effortlessly arises in you, when you accept the truth: I AM GOD's , ONLY
GOD IS MINE, NOTHING ELSE IS MINE. Try it...not only you but everything around
you shall get effortlessly enriched. Or tell me any other way by which so called
humanity or civilisation can get enriched. Now answer...!
MIRAGE....what a beautiful word you chose. But there is one error not in the
selection of word by you but in its application. Mirage is not God but the
world...!!! HA...!!! You prove how God is MIRAGE or shall I prove how this world
is a mirage ? You choose who should initiate the deliberations. Ideally you
should set the ball rolling. Now answer....!
3 Those who do not have anger, those who love others, those who get pained by
sorrows of other....if according to you those people are disastrous for
society...then tell me What kind of people are not disastrous for society? Now
4 Renunciation is not a loosing battle if your acceptance is real. Your
acceptance of false is real. Is not a dream real when you are dreaming? Is not
experience of a snake in a rope real when you have accepted the rope to be a
snake? Is not your acceptance of world real ? If that is real then how rejection
is unreal ? Now answer....!!!!
5 It is a law ( Come on Dear Questioner..!!! .) - You can not enjoy a thing , if
you are aware that the same is KHSANABHANGUR ( perishable/ momentary). It is a
law....Man !!! Now you prove how can you enjoy a thing unless you presume that
to be permanent. Else I shall tell you how the aforesaid law is LAW !!! It is
not the biggest folly of Indian philosophy....but if you have accepted that to
be so, it may be a biggest foolish acceptance from your end...!!! Now
6 Are you dead or alive ? Now answer...!!!
7. Elucidate. So far your statement is incomprehensible. Who is Sherlock Holmes?
What does he do ?
8. Who is giving lectures to whom? We are answering your Qs. You invited us to
enrich you. We are doing so. Of course, both acceptance and renunciation are
effortless. They are KARAN NIRAPEKSHA. What efforts you made to renounce
childhood and adopt youth or renounce youth and adopt old age? What efforts do
you make live or die? What efforts did you make to accept the world as me or
mine? What efforts do you make to get connected or disconnected with body?
Entire para about knowledge is childish and irrelevant. It proves nothing. Did
Einstein say God does not exist? Why do you consider Einstein to be yardstick ?
What is the topic under deliberation? Can a child understand value and taste of
mango if it does not give up eating clay? How can perishable satisfy
Let us see how the Learned Questioner is falling within definition of Gita 18:32
!!! There is nothing wrong in permanent element getting satisfaction only by
permanent. It is COMMON SENSE ! But Questioner says: I challenge the assumption
that "for pleasure to be pleasure it has to be permanent"..,.this is REVERSE
INTELLECT. Questioner's insistence on VERIFICATION OF ASSUMPTIONS .,,,!!!
Ha..Questioner is advised to verify his own assumptions first...once he does
that...whole mirage will disappear. Worldly pleasures are not MAYA, your
acceptance of them to be real or permanent us maya. Renunciation of false
acceptance is not maya, your acceptance of false to be real is Maya. Read.,.O
Questioner... Ponder over.,.THINK ...!!!!
O Dear Questioner ! You are calling God as mirage and world to be real !!!
Totally reverse is the truth. Know now: The world is brought into existence due
to spiritual ignorance/stupidity. There is not even a little Reality there.
Satsanga discusses thus. The non discriminating quarrel about it. This world is
an event of a dream. What have you found in this world which is not transitory?
Life is as transient as the drop of water dangling at the sharp corner of a
blade of grass..,do you know? It is possible to encompass the air, break the sky
or string together the waves BUT not stay forever in life !!! You are talking
about sensual pleasures ? Oh....!!! In the string-tossed bodily cage of the
puppet doll of flesh, endowed with muscles, bones and joints, of a woman or a
man, WHAT GOOD IS POSSIBLY THERE? Tell me.,,.! See if it is pleasing after
separating the skin, flesh, blood, tears, eyes etc??? Why are you deluded in
vain ??? Insufficient is childhood, it is forcefully devoured by youth. The
latter is eaten away by old age. See this mutual cruelty. In old age, heart
burns indeed due to his poor capacity to enjoy !!! The cat that is old age, eats
the rat that is youth and you say I wanna enjoy this ? Incapacity, calamities,
thirst, dumbness, perplexed intellect, covetousness, restlessness and dejection
- all these exist in childhood. Appearance of youth is bright only for a moment,
which is temporary like the trembling and deep thunder of the clouds and the
lustre of lightening and of course , Inauspicious. It is pleasing only at the
current moment ! Not aware...??? Of what avail is wealth , of what use is
kingdom and what avail are body and things sought for? O Dear..even within a
certain number of days, time destroys everything. The God of Death, of cruel
behaviour , reducing to infirmity the body , swallows the mass of living beings
continually, JUST AS: A serpent swallows the air !!!
And you compare these bondage creating flashes of non existent pleasures (
actually only pains exist there all along..pure unadulterated pains and nothing
else except pains. It is stupidity that makes us see pleasures there ) with
BLISS associated in God realisation !!! How funny !!! Aaaah ...!!!
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
Information becomes knowledge when we get right experience, no mater the
information comes from reading a book by self or by means of que-ans or by just
listening the truth.
If the person is discussing, or cutting others point , it is good, it shows that
the person is really interested in getting the point or at least he/she has some
information which while discussing/arguing becomes clear in his/her own head.
Some day with right experience it will become part of his/her own being, and
he/she will taste the Truth .Open discussion forum such as Gita gr provides a
platform for all seekers to discuss in depth solutions provided in scriptures
for all real life problems, o if we are willing, we can be benefited, if we are
not willing, no one can help.
Love, respect and blessings,
It is natural to have doubts in a serious seeker. Therefore, a spiritual master
should not disappoint such people by discouraging questions. No doubt, there
are people who pose questions not for their understanding but to measure the
knowledge of the master or to impress others with their knowledge. A spiritual
master can understand from the nature of the question, the intention of the
questioner and accordingly respond to his queries. From satsangs we get
spiritual knowledge in bits and pieces and, therefore, question answer session
should be an integral part after Satsang. Anyone one with intellectual mastery
over philosophy (there are many Deepak Chopras like men and women in the market)
can preach values but to satisfy a real seeker and to clear his/her genuine
doubts, question/answer should not be discouraged, otherwise it could be
misconstrued to mean that the master is a mere "His Master's Voice" and
disinterested in the real spiritual progress of his followers.
Coming to the subject that "main obstacle to God realization is attraction to
sense pleasures" is correct. Study of Vedanta helps the seeker's over indulgence
in sense pleasures. In fact as Swami Chinmayanandaji has stated "Vedanta does
not teach us to keep away from anything, but to keep in tune with everything".
Ignorance of one's Self, role of objects, misunderstanding that the pleasure
lies in the object etc. etc. are the reasons for our failure to face life
intelligently and fall pray to captivation of senses. Hinduism is a way of
living and one who follows it with proper understanding can avoid a lot of fall,
disappointments and displeasures in life.
No one can make another understand anything or any truth unless another is
willing to understand. The independence of human birth lies there in ACCEPTANCE.
This entire creation is output of acceptance only. It is due to our faulty
acceptance of world as real, that we suffer the cycle of birth and death; it is
our acceptance that is sole reason for our sorrows. This acceptance of unreal as
real takes place from SELF and it is SELF only who is capable of RENOUNCING this
acceptance of false. The learned questioner here has accepted the false to be so
real that the real is appearing as false....and that precisely and squarely
falls within purview of Holy Gira verse 18:32 ! Actually, the sole cause of this
acceptance of world ( Gita 7:4/5) is AGYAAN/ STUPIDITY. When you get hugely
entangled in the MIRAGE of this creation, 18:32 of Gita, is natural outcome.
When for the first time we grasped this principle body/world being different
than SELF...it was unbelievable. But one progresses, starts discriminating, sees
the momentaryness of the creation equanimously, you acquire capability of
renouncing false acceptance. Learned Questioner can only be given reasons,
logic, rationale but to accept or not accept is sole willingness of the
What if the Questioner accepts the truths and renounces the false? He will get
liberated. What if he does not? He shall continue to remain bondaged !!!
Satsanga can only impart truths...NO ONE CAN MAKE ANOTHER UNDERSTAND...NO ONE,
INCLUDING GOD !
God can, but why He should? God never interferes in the INDEPENDENCE of Jeeva.
But Mother Nature does that. More you accept false, more sorrowful you get. The
laws of Mother Nature are such that disconnection starts from the very moment of
connection. Mother Nature keeps giving you signals regarding perishability,
KSHANBHANGURATA of the world but our solid acceptance of world as real does not
let us appreciate the TRUTH.
This solid acceptance is output of stupidity and nothing else..,because there
are SHRUTI ( History/ Scriptures), YUKTI ( Logic/rationale) and ANUBHUTI (
direct experiences of perishable, momentary world) to guide us....but ALAS..,BG
18:32 !!!! Only Nature can cure stupidity and no one else.
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