Sunday, June 9, 2013

[gita-talk] Re: Main Obstacle to God Realization is Attraction to Sense Pleasures

 

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Recently a highly spiritual, very young sadhak said the following to us.

"I am not very interested in providing answers to any sadhak's questions. On
one hand we ourselves do not properly understand the point completely and
secondly, the person who we are telling, his attention is not on attempting to
understand, but more on cutting the opposite party. This is what is happening
nowadays. If that same individual finds the same thing by himself, while
reading in a particular book, he honors it and gives it due consideration.
However he will not give due consideration to it, in the form of a question and
answer session. This is my personal experience. It is the same in my case,
where I value and respect what I read in books."

We may want to look at how to proceed with this group and where we can add
value, as it appears that many questioners are not quite satisfied with the
responses provided.

We welcome suggestions.......

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

==================================================

Questions should be restricted to concepts dealt with in Geeta. Questioner should clearly state that while reading this holy text, I am unable to understand meaning or how to implement study of Geeta in life with Spiritual and Material advantage; or else I am faced with this problem and seeking advice from participants how to solve this or face this in accordance with teachings of Geeta. Any question outside the text although may be important in some other context, should be discouraged. As Gandhiji and Vinobaji have summarised by exhaustively studying the book and making sincere efforts to live up to it, and have categorically stated that there is no question in life either political, social , health problem or spiritual development whose solution is not found in Bhagwad Geeta. I confirm this statement independently by my experience of last 75 yrs.
I was brought up in Saurashtra then Kathiawar ruled by number of native princes. Maharaja Bhagwatsinhji of Gondal under whose jurisdiction my town Dhoraji came, was deeply immersed in teachings of Bhagwad Geeta. As our school which was affiliated to then Mumbai University did not have place for Geeta in curriculum till Matriculation, he introduced Bhagwad Geeta as an optional subject from Std.6 onwards. To encourage students to learn Geeta, he even instituted a scheme of scholarships to those who opted for this subject.
I write this to state that he was greatly influenced by Gandhiji work in many fields like political, social and spiritual and emphatic statement of Gandhiji that Geeta provided solutions to questions in all fields of life.
Hence in this Satsang Group, questions should be restricted to Bhagwad Geeta only or any question asked by Sadhaks should be replied by citing authentic verse from Bhagwad Geeta. Also wherever possible, questioner should contact the answerer to develop further.
Jayantilal Shah

---------------------------------------------------------

Moving individually on spiritual path is not that easy as walking in a park.
When one finds it difficult to take the group (masses) on walking in a park as
per own norms, what ease is there on spiritual path for it?
Humble suggestion is, pick up all good found in satsang for own good use instead
of trying to lead the group in any direction [Someone read on entrance of a
satsang hall - krupayaa jnaanakee baaten yahaan na karen, yahaan aanewaale
sabhee ekase badhakar ek jnaanee hain].
Better it would be to move with the group and not to try to move the group with
yourself, letting go all that is not agreeable to your own norms.
Humbly,
Saadhaka

-------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Your very highly spiritual and very young Sadhak is right. No one on this earth,
including God Himself can make another person understand/accept something, if
that another person is not willing to understand or accept. Saints, Scriptures,
Teachers, Satsangis can tell you truth, but to accept the same or not IS THE
SOLE RESPONSIBILITY AND WILL of the individual. Revered Swamiji once stated the
characteristics of a fool...He said: A fool has two traits- 1 He himself does
not know / understand ( KHUD JAANATA NAHIN) 2 He does not heed to the others (
DOOSARE KI MAANATA NAHIN ) !!! One who has these two qualities is called FOOL.
Some listener asked then to Him: Swamiji...persons with above two qualities are
in abundance, in every home...now how to make them understand the truth..because
even if God Himself comes and tells him the truth, a fool will not understand
because he does not heed others, and God is other. Great Saint smiled and
replied: MOORKHANAAM AUSHADHAM DANDAM ( only medicine to cure a fool is
punishment ). Hence it is Mother Nature only which produces a punishment for a
fool and that only can cure the person with above characteristics. There are
many verses in Holy Gita also which define persons of the above two typical
traits. BG 16:8 / 9 and 18:32 readily come to memory.

I request Moderators to continue with this thread till the Questioner is fully
satisfied. I request the Questioner to freely deliberate on the subject and give
reasons for non acceptance. Whatever you have stated so far, We shall try to
answer. Problem is singular: No one can make other accept a thing. We can
deliberate, argue, but acceptance is sole prerogative of SOUL. Do you know Dear
Questioner that SELF can only accept or reject and can do nothing else? Are you
aware about this...? Know now this fact through this Divine Satsanga
Forum...!!!! Nothing in this world, no body can make other accept or reject. You
YOURSELF only can accept or reject. Still we shall try to give reasons to you so
that realisation may dawn upon you, God willing.

1 SHRUTIS say : EKAKI NA RAMATE ( God did not relish being alone). Hence out of
Himself only He created this Universe for PREM . All Jeevas are direct fragment
of God. Your Q is what is the cause of Creation of this world. Answer is : PREM
( Love). He created the world for PREM.

2 How can you say that by God Realisation you do not get enriched? Have you
realised God? No...! Then where is basis for your statement? Experiences arise
out of acceptance effortlessly...It is a law. Acceptance is the only cause for
your experiences. argue on this law...if you can !!! A thing which arises
effortlessly can not be your goal. Your goal has to be acceptance of TRUTH. Can
there be any better experience than the experience of PREM? Tell me...! This
PREM effortlessly arises in you, when you accept the truth: I AM GOD's , ONLY
GOD IS MINE, NOTHING ELSE IS MINE. Try it...not only you but everything around
you shall get effortlessly enriched. Or tell me any other way by which so called
humanity or civilisation can get enriched. Now answer...!

MIRAGE....what a beautiful word you chose. But there is one error not in the
selection of word by you but in its application. Mirage is not God but the
world...!!! HA...!!! You prove how God is MIRAGE or shall I prove how this world
is a mirage ? You choose who should initiate the deliberations. Ideally you
should set the ball rolling. Now answer....!

3 Those who do not have anger, those who love others, those who get pained by
sorrows of other....if according to you those people are disastrous for
society...then tell me What kind of people are not disastrous for society? Now
answer....!!!

4 Renunciation is not a loosing battle if your acceptance is real. Your
acceptance of false is real. Is not a dream real when you are dreaming? Is not
experience of a snake in a rope real when you have accepted the rope to be a
snake? Is not your acceptance of world real ? If that is real then how rejection
is unreal ? Now answer....!!!!

5 It is a law ( Come on Dear Questioner..!!! .) - You can not enjoy a thing , if
you are aware that the same is KHSANABHANGUR ( perishable/ momentary). It is a
law....Man !!! Now you prove how can you enjoy a thing unless you presume that
to be permanent. Else I shall tell you how the aforesaid law is LAW !!! It is
not the biggest folly of Indian philosophy....but if you have accepted that to
be so, it may be a biggest foolish acceptance from your end...!!! Now
answer....!!!

6 Are you dead or alive ? Now answer...!!!

7. Elucidate. So far your statement is incomprehensible. Who is Sherlock Holmes?
What does he do ?

8. Who is giving lectures to whom? We are answering your Qs. You invited us to
enrich you. We are doing so. Of course, both acceptance and renunciation are
effortless. They are KARAN NIRAPEKSHA. What efforts you made to renounce
childhood and adopt youth or renounce youth and adopt old age? What efforts do
you make live or die? What efforts did you make to accept the world as me or
mine? What efforts do you make to get connected or disconnected with body?

Entire para about knowledge is childish and irrelevant. It proves nothing. Did
Einstein say God does not exist? Why do you consider Einstein to be yardstick ?
What is the topic under deliberation? Can a child understand value and taste of
mango if it does not give up eating clay? How can perishable satisfy
imperishable?

Let us see how the Learned Questioner is falling within definition of Gita 18:32
!!! There is nothing wrong in permanent element getting satisfaction only by
permanent. It is COMMON SENSE ! But Questioner says: I challenge the assumption
that "for pleasure to be pleasure it has to be permanent"..,.this is REVERSE
INTELLECT. Questioner's insistence on VERIFICATION OF ASSUMPTIONS .,,,!!!
Ha..Questioner is advised to verify his own assumptions first...once he does
that...whole mirage will disappear. Worldly pleasures are not MAYA, your
acceptance of them to be real or permanent us maya. Renunciation of false
acceptance is not maya, your acceptance of false to be real is Maya. Read.,.O
Questioner... Ponder over.,.THINK ...!!!!

O Dear Questioner ! You are calling God as mirage and world to be real !!!
Totally reverse is the truth. Know now: The world is brought into existence due
to spiritual ignorance/stupidity. There is not even a little Reality there.
Satsanga discusses thus. The non discriminating quarrel about it. This world is
an event of a dream. What have you found in this world which is not transitory?
Life is as transient as the drop of water dangling at the sharp corner of a
blade of grass..,do you know? It is possible to encompass the air, break the sky
or string together the waves BUT not stay forever in life !!! You are talking
about sensual pleasures ? Oh....!!! In the string-tossed bodily cage of the
puppet doll of flesh, endowed with muscles, bones and joints, of a woman or a
man, WHAT GOOD IS POSSIBLY THERE? Tell me.,,.! See if it is pleasing after
separating the skin, flesh, blood, tears, eyes etc??? Why are you deluded in
vain ??? Insufficient is childhood, it is forcefully devoured by youth. The
latter is eaten away by old age. See this mutual cruelty. In old age, heart
burns indeed due to his poor capacity to enjoy !!! The cat that is old age, eats
the rat that is youth and you say I wanna enjoy this ? Incapacity, calamities,
thirst, dumbness, perplexed intellect, covetousness, restlessness and dejection
- all these exist in childhood. Appearance of youth is bright only for a moment,
which is temporary like the trembling and deep thunder of the clouds and the
lustre of lightening and of course , Inauspicious. It is pleasing only at the
current moment ! Not aware...??? Of what avail is wealth , of what use is
kingdom and what avail are body and things sought for? O Dear..even within a
certain number of days, time destroys everything. The God of Death, of cruel
behaviour , reducing to infirmity the body , swallows the mass of living beings
continually, JUST AS: A serpent swallows the air !!!

And you compare these bondage creating flashes of non existent pleasures (
actually only pains exist there all along..pure unadulterated pains and nothing
else except pains. It is stupidity that makes us see pleasures there ) with
BLISS associated in God realisation !!! How funny !!! Aaaah ...!!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhnak,
Information becomes knowledge when we get right experience, no mater the information comes from reading a book by self or by means of que-ans or by just listening the truth.
If the person is discussing, or cutting others point , it is good, it shows that the person is really interested in getting the point or at least he/she has some information which while discussing/arguing becomes clear in his/her own head. Some day with right experience it will become part of his/her own being, and he/she will taste the Truth .Open discussion forum such as Gita gr provides a platform for all seekers to discuss in depth solutions provided in scriptures for all real life problems, o if we are willing, we can be benefited, if we are not willing, no one can help.
Love, respect and blessings,
Sadhna

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Hari: Om,
It is natural to have doubts in a serious seeker. Therefore, a spiritual master should not disappoint such people by discouraging questions. No doubt, there are people who pose questions not for their understanding but to measure the knowledge of the master or to impress others with their knowledge. A spiritual master can understand from the nature of the question, the intention of the questioner and accordingly respond to his queries. From satsangs we get spiritual knowledge in bits and pieces and, therefore, question answer session should be an integral part after Satsang. Anyone one with intellectual mastery over philosophy (there are many Deepak Chopras like men and women in the market) can preach values but to satisfy a real seeker and to clear his/her genuine doubts, question/answer should not be discouraged, otherwise it could be misconstrued to mean that the master is a mere "His Master's Voice" and disinterested in the real spiritual progress of his followers.
Coming to the subject that "main obstacle to God realization is attraction to sense pleasures" is correct. Study of Vedanta helps the seeker's over indulgence in sense pleasures. In fact as Swami Chinmayanandaji has stated "Vedanta does not teach us to keep away from anything, but to keep in tune with everything". Ignorance of one's Self, role of objects, misunderstanding that the pleasure lies in the object etc. etc. are the reasons for our failure to face life intelligently and fall pray to captivation of senses. Hinduism is a way of living and one who follows it with proper understanding can avoid a lot of fall, disappointments and displeasures in life.
Mohanair

----------------------------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

No one can make another understand anything or any truth unless another is
willing to understand. The independence of human birth lies there in ACCEPTANCE.
This entire creation is output of acceptance only. It is due to our faulty
acceptance of world as real, that we suffer the cycle of birth and death; it is
our acceptance that is sole reason for our sorrows. This acceptance of unreal as
real takes place from SELF and it is SELF only who is capable of RENOUNCING this
acceptance of false. The learned questioner here has accepted the false to be so
real that the real is appearing as false....and that precisely and squarely
falls within purview of Holy Gira verse 18:32 ! Actually, the sole cause of this
acceptance of world ( Gita 7:4/5) is AGYAAN/ STUPIDITY. When you get hugely
entangled in the MIRAGE of this creation, 18:32 of Gita, is natural outcome.

When for the first time we grasped this principle body/world being different
than SELF...it was unbelievable. But one progresses, starts discriminating, sees
the momentaryness of the creation equanimously, you acquire capability of
renouncing false acceptance. Learned Questioner can only be given reasons,
logic, rationale but to accept or not accept is sole willingness of the
Questioner.

What if the Questioner accepts the truths and renounces the false? He will get
liberated. What if he does not? He shall continue to remain bondaged !!!
Satsanga can only impart truths...NO ONE CAN MAKE ANOTHER UNDERSTAND...NO ONE,
INCLUDING GOD !

God can, but why He should? God never interferes in the INDEPENDENCE of Jeeva.
But Mother Nature does that. More you accept false, more sorrowful you get. The
laws of Mother Nature are such that disconnection starts from the very moment of
connection. Mother Nature keeps giving you signals regarding perishability,
KSHANBHANGURATA of the world but our solid acceptance of world as real does not
let us appreciate the TRUTH.

This solid acceptance is output of stupidity and nothing else..,because there
are SHRUTI ( History/ Scriptures), YUKTI ( Logic/rationale) and ANUBHUTI (
direct experiences of perishable, momentary world) to guide us....but ALAS..,BG
18:32 !!!! Only Nature can cure stupidity and no one else.

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sanjev,

You wrote - "Every one knows it is impossible to give up any pleasures for life
time and every one is bound to fail. So people will end up blaming themselves if
they do not realise the promised
goal and still think the theory must be right only they are failing. But the
fact is if you really try to verify the theory and know its contradictions, it
will fail miserably and soon people
will discard it. That is a simple trick to blame the followers and save the pet
theory. Otherwise your happiness and enjoyment of sensual pleasures have no
connection with any kind of knowledge."

Your views are supported by Gita. You have summarized why Hindu religion has
failed. Almost all Hindus cannot attain these ideals and they give up pursuing
religion. Then, they fail miserably and don't even follow basics of service to
people, truthfulness, love, kindness and compassion. What is the use of talking
of sense control when they can't even practice truthfulness, love, kindness and
service.

Gita has described different realities. It has simultaneously described multiple
concepts depending on one's state. People with realization of Gita will agree
with you and even Swami Ramsukhdasji will agree with you.

Sense control should be followed first in context of following basics of
religion i.e. service to others (including oneself) and not hurting others
(including oneself). Even to serve and not hurt others, one needs control. One
can achieve this goal by being happy oneself. One can't serve others if one is
not happy. So be happy without hurting others and then, help others to do the
same i.e. be happy without hurting others. This is summary of dharma. Other
principles come after this basic of dharma is followed.

Regards,
Murari Das

------------------------------------------------------

1 SHRUTIS say : EKAKI NA RAMATE ( God did not relish being alone). Hence out of
Himself only He created this Universe for PREM . All Jeevas are direct fragment
of God. Your Q is what is the cause of Creation of this world. Answer is : PREM
( Love). He created the world for PREM.

Q-1 : What is the basis for this statement ? First you assume there is something called god.So exactly what is this entity ? How do you know it exists ? How do you know how it felt Whether lonely or otherwise ? Who told you cause of any thing is Prem ? What prem means for material world ? Can you say oxygen and hydrogen fell ‘prem’ towards each other to create water ? It seems to be very funny assumption if you are seriously advocating it.

2. How can you say that by God Realisation you do not get enriched? Have you
realised God? No...! Then where is basis for your statement? Experiences arise
out of acceptance effortlessly...It is a law. Acceptance is the only cause for
your experiences. argue on this law...if you can !!! A thing which arises
effortlessly can not be your goal. Your goal has to be acceptance of TRUTH. Can
there be any better experience than the experience of PREM? Tell me...! This
PREM effortlessly arises in you, when you accept the truth: I AM GOD's , ONLY
GOD IS MINE, NOTHING ELSE IS MINE. Try it...not only you but everything around
you shall get effortlessly enriched. Or tell me any other way by which so called
humanity or civilisation can get enriched. Now answer...!

Q2 â€" Have you realized god ? No ! Then how can you say it enriches it ? What I see is extreme deprivation around me especially in people running after god realization. That is the law ! There is no law as stated by you that acceptance causes any experience. To say I am god’s and god is mine you have to first understand and prove its existence. You are assuming something which you first need to prove.

3. MIRAGE....what a beautiful word you chose. But there is one error not in the
selection of word by you but in its application. Mirage is not God but the
world...!!! HA...!!! You prove how God is MIRAGE or shall I prove how this world
is a mirage ? You choose who should initiate the deliberations. Ideally you
should set the ball rolling. Now answer....!

Q3 - Yes go ahed and prove how this world is mirage and god it not. I challenge your wisdom.

3 Those who do not have anger, those who love others, those who get pained by
sorrows of other....if according to you those people are disastrous for
society...then tell me What kind of people are not disastrous for society? Now
answer....!!!

4 Renunciation is not a loosing battle if your acceptance is real. Your
acceptance of false is real. Is not a dream real when you are dreaming? Is not
experience of a snake in a rope real when you have accepted the rope to be a
snake? Is not your acceptance of world real ? If that is real then how rejection
is unreal ? Now answer....!!!!

Q4 - If every thing is fragment of your real god, pls tell me where is the place of unreal in this universe. Only your ignorance is real.

5 It is a law ( Come on Dear Questioner..!!! .) - You can not enjoy a thing , if
you are aware that the same is KHSANABHANGUR ( perishable/ momentary).

Q5 â€" Sorry friend. When the person who enjoys himself is not permanent there is no question of any thing worth enjoying to be permanent. And as I said, kshanbhangur is a necessity to be pleasure and not permanence â€" do one experiment. If you like Shreekhand, start eating it day in and day out every time you feel hungry. In other words making the pleasure permanent feature in your life. And just check in how many days your permanence of pleasure turns in to nausea. Even the very thought or sight you will turn you away from it feeling nausea. So is the case with every thing. Hence I repeat pleasure has to be necessarily kshanbhangur. Or soon it turns into nightmare.

6 Are you dead or alive ? Now answer...!!!

Q6 - Is your ideal permanent unchanging thing dead or alive ? That is the question you need to answer. You have to tell how you will distinguish dead from alive if it is only unchanging and permanent.

7. Elucidate. So far your statement is incomprehensible. Who is Sherlock Holmes?What does he do ?

Q7- Never mind who is Sherlock Holmes if you have not read anything other than religious literature. â€" just understand the principle that you must not let the larger picture shadow problems at hand.

8. Who is giving lectures to whom? We are answering your Qs. You invited us to enrich you. We are doing so. Of course, both acceptance and renunciation are
effortless. They are KARAN NIRAPEKSHA. What efforts you made to renounce
childhood and adopt youth or renounce youth and adopt old age? What efforts do
you make live or die? What efforts did you make to accept the world as me or
mine? What efforts do you make to get connected or disconnected with body?

Q8 - The assumption is you need renounce some thing which is very much questionable. And renunciation is not at all easy. Ask any of your honest sadhaks if they find it easy and then we will talk. More over path of renunciation is totally irrelevant. This is not the pre-requisite for any thing. You are only creating false connection.

9.Entire para about knowledge is childish and irrelevant. It proves nothing. Did
Einstein say God does not exist? Why do you consider Einstein to be yardstick ?
What is the topic under deliberation? Can a child understand value and taste of
mango if it does not give up eating clay? How can perishable satisfy
imperishable?

Q9 â€" Para is not childish your understanding is childish. Read it again and understand the point that I am making. It is written in very simple language. All your question related with it and statements are childish and devoid of even common sense.

10 - O Dear Questioner ! You are calling God as mirage and world to be real !!!
Totally reverse is the truth. Know now: The world is brought into existence due
to spiritual ignorance/stupidity.

Q-10 : Oh dear answerer ! whose stupidity and ignorance brought this world into existence ? This is contradictory of your assumption of god and this world being fragments of only god. So from where the ignorance and stupidity arises in god ?

11: And you compare these bondage creating flashes of non existent pleasures (
actually only pains exist there all along..pure unadulterated pains and nothing
else except pains. It is stupidity that makes us see pleasures there ) with
BLISS associated in God realisation !!! How funny !!! Aaaah ...!!!

Q 11 - Since you are spreading falsehood and ignorance in my name I had to come back after 8000 years. Understand this O ignorant soul.

Sanjeev

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Dear Sanjeev,

This is my second response.

You wrote: Otherwise your happiness and enjoyment of sensual pleasures have no
connection with any kind of knowledge.

I can quote many statements from Swami Ramsukhdasji that you are correct in
terms of spiritual knowledge. Spiritual knowledge is at the level of self which
transcends matter. So, it is not affected by sensual pleasures of physical body.

But material knowledge is dependent on discipline. I got very high rank in
IIT-JEE and it required sense control to gain knowledge to compete at that
level. I had to renounce TV, movies etc and spend 3-4 hours every day in
studies. Same way, we need discipline to be happy. For example, going to Hawaii
will give you happiness but you have to work hard to earn money to go to Hawaii.
Also, travelling even though gives happiness also requires hard work like
getting up early to visit tourist spots etc.

I think you will agree with this kind of sense control. My problem with many
Hindu practitioners is their aversion to be happy and their aversion to enjoy
life. On the other hand, my American friends work hard and earn money and then,
they spend money to be happy and share their happiness with family and others.
Somehow, many Hindu practitioners try to deny happiness but that is immature. I
have read Swamiji multiple times and I am confident that Swamiji does not want
us to deny ourselves the pleasures of life. He wants us to enrich our life
further with the knowledge of the self.

I myself take best from both east and west. I enjoy life and be happy. But at
the same time, try to keep the vision of self which enjoying life. I am not this
body and I will not die when body dies. I will exist after death and therefore,
I don't have fear of death. I don't have fear of suffering as I know that self
does not suffer. I ignore negative events in my life and enjoy the positive and
happy events of life. I spend time with family and enjoy with them. Me and my
son enjoy watching college basketball and football, NBA and NFL. We really enjoy
them and even go to games. My kids are very well behaved and happy. The
knowledge of self does not prevent me from enjoying simple things in my life
like sex, sports, movies, playing racquetball good time with friends and
family, camping etc.

Regards,
Murari Das

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You say we the main obstacle to god realisation is attraction to sense
pleasures.
So my question is
(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in
conflict ? What relation it has with realisation ? Why we cannot have both ?
(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god ?
(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort ?
(5) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination ?
(6) If there is no evidence what proof we have that going on this path will give
you
any desired results or do we realize at the end of journey that we have wasted
all our life ?
(7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human civilisation
?
Have they enriched any facet of human life ? Why should they be considered ideal
?

Sanjeev

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Vyasjee!
A fool is already under punishment (of being a fool), what more does he/she
deserve? Please describe in brief.
Humbly,
Saadhaka

----------------------------------------------------------

You Answer my Questions --- But I Question Your Answers !!!

I challenge all your assumptions -
Assumption (1) There is god Because there has to be cause for every thing ? (So
what is
the cause of god ? If it can exist without cause can this world not exist
without cause ? )
(2) aim of human life is realization of god (aim of this life is to have
different and variety of
experiences which makes the life and civilisation rich. Having just one
experience of
realisation of god does not make life rich in experience no matter how good the
experience
is. Societies running after god realisation are all ruined and at the bottom of
human
development index. Can this be ideal path - that is chasing the mirage without
verification
of your assumptions ? )
(3) God realisation makes the man ideal for this life (Those who do not know the
difference
between good and bad and hence do not have anger, love for good things, hate for
bad
things, sorrow for pain of others will do nothing to change the status. That
is disastrous
for the society)
(4) renunciation of worldly and sensual pleasures is the way to realise god.
(again doubtful
path as there is simply no connection. If it worldly pleasures is maya its
renunciation is
also illusion. When a person asked Adi Shankaracharya why he is running away
from a
charging elephant if the elephant is maya - he replied that his running is also
maya. So
your enunciation itself becomes illusion. So waste time on loosing battle ? )
(5) for pleasure to be pleasure, it has to be permanent. (My experience is
permanent things
do not remain pleasure for long. For pleasure to be pleasure, it has to be
'kshanbhangur'.
(ephemeral or transitory). This is the biggest folly of Indian philosophy.
(6) permanent and unchanging things are ideal (assuming again they are alive ! )
(If some thing is permanent and unchanging how you will distinguish it from dead
?)
(7) God realisation gives you wider picture which is good. (Read hillarious
story of
Sherlok Holmes for the correct perspective given below )
(8) Renunciation is easy and effortless (then why you have to give lectures
about it
day in and day out ? Won't it come naturally without any exhortation ? )

One after thought - . Knowledge does not depend on the behaviour of an
individual.
If I enjoy drinking Orange juice and eating mangoes, Einstein will not come and
say
Do you really enjoy drinking orange juice ? Well now give it up and then only
you will
understand theory of relativity. Newton will not come to me and say "Do you
enjoy
eating mangoes ? Well my dear friend, if you want to understand laws of motion,
you
will have to now stop eating mangoes because your happiness and enjoyment comes
in the way of understanding these theories. Why then our enlightened souls come
and
say give up sensual pleasures then only I will get ultimate knowledge (whatever
that may
mean) ? What is the logic ? Just because I have little pleasures and enjoyments
in my
life it comes in the path of understanding ?

I feel the reason is more cunning. Every one
knows it is impossible to give up any pleasures for life time and every one is
bound to fail.
So people will end up blaming themselves if they do not realise the promised
goal and
still think the theory must be right only they are failing. But the fact is if
you really try'
to verify the theory and know its contradictions, it will fail miserably and
soon people
will discard it. That is a simple trick to blame the followers and save the pet
theory.
Otherwise your happiness and enjoyment of sensual pleasures have no connection
with
any kind of knowledge.

Sanjeev
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WIDER PICTURE ? DON'T LOOSE SIGHT OF THE PROBLEM AT HAND LIKE HINDUS.

Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson went on a camping trip. After a good meal and a
bottle of wine they pitched their tent, lay down for the night, and went to
sleep. Some hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend. "Watson,
look up and tell me what you see."

Watson replied, "I see millions and millions of stars." "What does that tell
you?" inquired Holmes. Watson pondered for a minute, and said "Astronomically,
it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of
planets. Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo. Chronologically, I
deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three. Theologically, I can
see that God is All Powerful and that we are small and insignificant.
Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What
does the sky tell YOU, my friend?"

Holmes was silent for a minute; then spoke: "Watson, you imbecile. Some bastard
has stolen our tent."

This is what Lord Krishna says:
...
Thinking about sense objects will attach you to sense objects
Grow attached and you become addicted
Thwart your addiction, it turns to anger
Be angry and you confuse your mind
Confuse your mind, you forget the lessons of experience
Forget experience and you lose discrimination
Lose discrimination and you miss life's only purpose!
…Gita Ch2, Verse 62-63

siva prasad tata

-------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Bhoga and Yoga are contrary to each other. A BHOGI can never be a YOGI and a
YOGI can never be a BHOGI. An enjoyer of pleasures (bhogi) is a "rogi" (ill
person), not a "yogi" (equaminity). A bhogi will have to undergo suffering. He
can never be saved from suffering. So long as an aspirant has egoism (sense of
I-ness) in him, till then he is a `bhogi' (enjoyer of sense pleasures). A
pleasure seeker does not attain salvation- Therefore Tulasidasji Maharaj has
said -

Tulasi mamata Ram saun, samataa sab sansaar |
Raag ne rosh ne dosh dukh, daas bhai bhav paar || (Dohaavali 94)

Meera Das, Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------

yes there is no shadow of doubt in it, sensual pleasure is an
hindrance to god realisation
god bless you
swamiji - SWAMI KRISHNANANDA

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no no senses are treacherous and once involved in the act mind will be
always hovering around...as sri ramakrishna paramahamsa said if you
want ram get rid of kam and if you want kam you will not get
ram...kuch paana hai to kuch khona hai
god bless you
swamiji SWAMI KRISHNANANDA

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Om shanti.

Very good observation.

Thanking u

Love and light

Gokul

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Hari Om

Last message in fact covered first two Qs and touched upon Q 3 mainly it's "
reward worth the effort" portion. . But Q 3 deserves some more attention. It
talks about a price asked for God Realisation but completely forgets the price
which is being paid for indulgence into sense pleasures. Here the very price is
presumed to be renunciation of sense pleasures? It is therefore a really
hilarious and funny Q, completely unilateral and completely opposite to the
Truth. The very basis of this Q is erroneous.

Truth is that God Realisation is effortless. When something does not require any
efforts at all, then where is the very basis for its pricing vis a vis pricing
of sensual pleasures ? It is price less even otherwise. What efforts are needed
in renunciation? Now think of efforts needed in indulgence into sensual
pleasures and efforts needed in maintaining or trying to make them permanent?
Which thing commands more price? A thing which is effortless or a thing which
needs efforts ? Think of the futility of those efforts !!! In spite of your
efforts can you keep your youth intact? Can you prevent yourself from not
getting old or from not dying ? Can you continue eating forever? Will you not
get fed up? Can you keep indulging in sensual pleasures at all times? Can you
prevent consequential fatigue , boredom; or prevent destruction of the
pleasure from sensual gratification ; and from destruction of the very means of
getting them ; and can you prevent loss of very ability of yourself to continue
with the same forever? That apart...can you hold sensual pleasures? Can you
keep them so long as you want ? A thing which you can not sustain even for a
fraction of a second, which is clearly momentary, which you can not keep
continuously at all, where is the Q of renunciation of that? When You are not
holding the same, how can you renounce the same ? When you do not have any
control , where is Q of keeping the same or not keeping the same? On the top of
it, that thing is already renouncing you, ceaselessly and
continuously...already...that thing ( sensual pleasures) has begun disconnecting
from you from the very moment of connection...and you Dear Questioner are
considering that to be "price asked for"? How can you presume such a thing can
command even a negligible value? Where is price of that thing which does not
remain constant even for a fraction of a second ? Where is the Q of any price
commanded by that thing which necessarily perishes? THINK.....!!! Where is the
Q of your keeping or renouncing, when the other side is continuously renouncing
you? When you can not keep, where is ability or discretion or option in you to
renounce at all? Without your doing anything also, it is renouncing you
continuously, and you Dear Questioner are not only presuming it to permanent,
but are also putting price tag over the same ? Is not it funny? We think we are
living, but actually we are dying with every passing second !!!! Any doubt on
this ? Where is then merit of any price of those momentary sensual pleasures?
They are worthless ....absolutely worthless ...even pea nuts are more valuable
than them !!!!

Hence sensual pleasures command or deserve no price actually, you are merely
wrongly presuming that they have a price ( which is being asked to be renounced
by God Realisation path)! Renunciation of them gets you in return that which is
price less...so big a reward that you just can not put a price tag. every price
will be miniscule , too low and too petty.

Once sensual pleasures have no price of their own, once they are clearly
worthless, where is the very substance in the Q ? Do you get me, Sir ?

Actually, this very Q is based on faulty presumption that sensual pleasures
command a price and thus erroneously compares the loss of this benefit in
comparison to rewards entailed in God Realisation !!! Actually one is worthless
and other is priceless.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Shree Hari Ram Ram
I see Nothing to worry.A devotee neither be sad nor makes other sad.There is
nothing Problem to teach and understand Scripture Knowledge.A person who adore
it He would Pick up it easily and a person who does not adore he will be out of
its advantage.We can easily find out the person whether he really want to know
or he is exercising discussion.A person who exercise the Spritual knowledge
there is only bliss for him and if he meets with same person it multiplies.It is
Science and the Science Never Fails.But it is rare to get such a ocassion or
union.I do not see any problems to proceed such a discussion group if we get
real participient If / Whether(Though) They are few or Rare.there is not problem
but bliss only !Siyabar Ram chandraji ki Jai ! Jai !! Jai !!!

Basu Dev

--------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

I liked these Qs really and also the aggression associated with them. I seek
permission to reply these Qs one by one . This posting addresses Q no 1 as to
the conflict between sense pleasures and God Realisation.

Why should these two should be in conflict ? JUST AS: Two totally opposite
things naturally remain in conflict ...like light and darkness, truth and false,
good and bad etc SIMILARLY: God Realisation and Sense pleasures are naturally in
conflict with each other being totally opposite to each other. .

Why we can not have both? Answer is JUST AS : Light and darkness can not remain
together , can not co-exist at the same time, one's presence necessarily means
other's absence SIMILARLY: God Realisation and sense pleasures can not remain
together.

How are they different? Why you should opt for God Realisation as against
sensual pleasures? They are different vis a vis what ?

They are different vis a vis you, me and every human being as well as vis a vis
God.

They are different in every conceivable attribute, way, character , type and
property. While God and Your SELF ( we) are permanent, these are temporary.
While God and Self ( we) are never changing, they are ever changing. While God
and Self ( we) are imperishable, these are perishable. While we are ever
blissful, these pleasures are ever sorrowful. There is no shadow even of sorrow
in our basic form....it is pure bliss, unadulterated bliss. On the other hand,
there is no pleasure in these indulgences of senses, there is only sorrow,
nothing else except sorrow....pure, unadulterated, only sorrow. While we are
permanent, these are temporary. While we are SAT , these are ASAT . While we are
sentient, these are inert. While we are immortal, they are mortal. While we are
totally faultless, these are totally faulty. While we are ever present , they
are never present. While we are fixed, they are moving. While we are perfect,
these are imperfect ! We are REAL, they are UNREAL. We are VIVEKA, these are
intellect.

Why one should opt for God Realisation ? JUST AS: A prisoner always wants to get
free. A person in debt always wants to be debt free. A poor always wants to get
rich. A sorrowful man always wants to be happy . A traveller always wants home.
SIMILARLY: We always want to be immortal but we see ourselves as mortals. We
always want to be all knowing, but we always find ourselves to be less knowing
ones. We want to be ever blissful but we find ourselves ever sorrowful. We
always want to be ever happy. We always want to be peaceful. We always want to
be perfect. We do not want to err. We do not want sorrows. We don't want to die.
But we are not what we want to. We need that. We are seeking that. We are dying
to get that, but have not yet got. Hence we are actually not peaceful and happy.

But why should opt for God Realisation? So that we become immortals, ever
blissful and all knowing. That can come to us by God Realisation only and never
by indulging in sense gratification.

JUST AS: You can't get richness while you are in company of poors. You can't
become happy by associating with sorrowful or out of those who are sorrowful by
their very form. You can't find permanent from temporary. You can not find love
from strangers. You can not find light while you are in dark. You can not get
knowledge, when you are ignorant. How can permanent element derive solace or
satisfaction out temporary element ? Can never changing remain happy in company
with ever changing ? SIMILARLY: You can not be happy by associating with
sorrowful sensual pleasures and in the company of DUKHALAYAM, this world. You
can not be peaceful by associating with that which is ever turbulent.

That is the advantage !!! That is the benefit !!!! Do you get me, Dear ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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1. Attraction to Sense pleasure makes the ego, mind, thoughts, actions to
busy with objects with pleasure and trying to get satisfaction of desires
for sensual pleasue. This business all the more increases as desires are
insatiable and often there are failures to get desired objects or their
pusuit is associated with disappointment and dissatisfaction. Thus there is
no time left for God realisation which requires much greater, continuous and
more concentrated efforts. On the other hand as a person pursues the path of
God realisation, shedding all desires of sensual pleasures along the way,
one still gets to use objects of pleasure but is not attracted by the
objects of pleasures nor attached to them. This therefore does not produce
any disappoitment or dissatisfaction or pain. Objects of sensual pleasure
then provides sublime pleasures and no pain. Yes once God is realised,
sensual pleasure from objects get replaced by sublime, divine pleasure from
the same objects without any associted sensual pain. Thus, the path of God
realisation is better..
2. God Realisation enables one to see the entire life process in a totally
different perspective that rids the mind and thoughts of any sense of hate,
jealousy, superiority/ inferiority, anger, disappointment, dissatisfaction,
depression, loss, sorrow, sadness of worries. All actions and thoughts
become completely pleasurable then as they become unattached to the
consequences. Who would not like to have such benefits.
3. Because of what has been stated in 3, God Realisation involes mere
sacrifice of sensual pleasures but rewards in the form of unstained,
ceaseless happiness, peace and harmony. The costs are huge but relative to
the benefits the costs are negligible. Only fools and the lazy will not lke
to get such a great reward.
4. There is no 4 the question.
5. Existence of any thing in this Universe and the Universe itself is
merely a matter of imagination as perceived by the senses. In that sense God
as any other concept or idea is immagination of the Man. Since the concept
of God is all pervasive and enveloping, all proofs that any matter, and
force, any space, any energy, any form, any idea exists - are all evidence
that God exists. Nothing can come into existence out of nothing. There must
be an orginal source material for everything. That ultimate, original source
if everything in the Unioiverse including the entire Universe is called God.
If you can prove that any thing in the Universe and the entire Universe
exists, you automatically prove that the Ultimate source of all, God,
exists. It is unscientific to believe that the Universe does not have a
cause in the sense of Ultimate source.
6. Proof here is one of examples. There are millions of examples of people
who have treaded this path till their death. And, many who did not slip from
the path at all. But they are not going to come to you to prove that they
have succeeded and benefited. Yes, only a few have succeeded completely but
even those who have progressed substantially along the path have been
benefited Read the history of Indian Sadhakas, Guatam Buddha and Jesus
Christ for the proof. You cannot have live video telecast of their lives.
7. Yes, they benefited billions of people over the milleniums. Their lives
and stories still motivate an overwhelmingly large part of human population.
They have brought solace to people in billions of numbers. Those who have
not succesfully completed journey along the alternatve paths of God
Realisation or travelled the paths to a considerable extent, sacrificing
most sensual desires and attachment, by contrast have contributed very
little to the human civilisation. All most all scietists and technologists
who contributed to the society and the march of human civilisation treaded
the path of seeking the various aspects of the Truth about the way the
Universe works and discovered methods to use that knowledge to uplift human
kind. It is the quest of knowing the Universe if various ways and in
different aspects that are part of the journeys to God Realisation.

The questions you have raised are the reflection of your own attempt to seek
God/ the Ultimate Truth about the Universe. Continue this journey: you will
start developing dis-taste for most sensual desires automatically over time.

Basudeb Sen

----------------------------------------------------------

We confuse happiness with pleasure. We live our lives moving from satisfying one
pleasure to satisfying another pleasure. You will not find happiness in a
pleasure prison. Pleasure is short-lived and temporary. Happiness is sustainable
for your lifetime Pleasure is an event -- a moment in time. You can't find
happiness through seeking only pleasure.

Pleasure can be seductive and addictive. Our pleasure-seeking obsession is
destroying our mental, physical, and spiritual well-being. Searching for
pleasure in smoking, drinking, video games, or watching television wastes our
fragile short lives, not to mention exposing us to the host of diseases that are
directly related to our pleasurable lifestyle.

Choice is ours.... Understand, Experiment and experience...

Sushil Jain

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>> (7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human
civilisation?

God realized person are kind, loving, caring and respectful towards all. This is
beautifully stated by Narsimha Mehta - vaishnava jana to tene kahiye pida parai
jan hai re". God realized person is that who knows the pain of others. Such
people serve others and help others to be happy.

It does not matter whether they are successful. Our sentiment and intention is
more important. Small contribution matters. If we all can be loving and caring,
then our small contribution will be great. One very good example which comes to
my mind immediately is Mahatma Gandhi. He led his life based on "vaishnava jana"
song of Narsimha Mehta.

On the side note, being loving, kind, truthful, respectful and caring is
pre-requisite of being God realized. If someone does not have these qualities,
then they are not God realized and there is not much use to talk about
controlling senses. Gita is written for those who are loving, kind, truthful,
respectful and caring and one should always be endeavoring to develop these
qualities while applying other principles of Gita.

Regards,
Murari Das

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Source of our Desires are:

1. Pre-conditioning (Manyata)
2. Sensations(Samvedna)
3. Natural Acceptance (a gift of nature to all of us)

Today we largely operate on the basis of

1. Pre-conditioning(Manyatas)
2. Sensations from the Body

This is the cause for our conflicts and contradictions.

Basic human aspiration is for continuous happiness. Preconditioning and
sensations unable to provide this. Instead, what we get is short time pleasure/
excitement followed by periods of insecurity, fear, unhappiness, addictions,
etc.

If we operate as per our Natural Acceptance, it will create harmony at all
levels. We need to start referring to our Natural Acceptance, in order to be in
peace, harmony, joy...continually.. This is called God realization or
Self-Realization...

Choice is ours.... one can experiment with both and understand.... A happy and
joyful person creates magic everywhere.... Many people are doing that...that is
why the world is so beautiful...
Join the happiness club...

Sushil Jain

------------------------------------------------------

Sadhak asked :
(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in conflict ? Answer :
sense pleasures and god realisation aren't in conflict [Vasudev: Sarvam].
Attachment to sense pleasures is hindering Realisation.
What relation it has with realisation? Answer :What kind of relation do you want
to know?
Why we cannot have both? Answer : Because riding on two boats simultaneously,
results in utter failure (none is achieved).
(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god? Answer : No benefits in terms
of worldly assets. Realisation itself is the Grace.
(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort? Answer : No words can describe the worth of
Realisation. Experience (if God Graces you with) it.
(5) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination?
Answer : Creation can't know the creator. Better you accept God IS.
(6) If there is no evidence what proof we have that going on this path will give
you any desired results or do we realise at the end of journey that we have
wasted all our life? Answer : Realisation is not the desired result [i.e. result
of any desires]. Realisation is Gods Grace ONLY.
(7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human civilisation?
Answer : Their contribution can't be measured by any senses, including mind.
Have they enriched any facet of human life? Answer : Before answering, tell if
you really know one (who is realised)? Just be with the realised for a moment
only, you won't be able to separate yourself from him/her.
Why should they be considered ideal? Answer : Because none other is equivalent
to them.
All these answers are already within you, but your mind is insisting on getting
different answers from without.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

------------------------------------------

1. we can not do two things at a time, god has made our brain to
concentrate on one thing at a time, or one life one mission..if we
want a life of sense enjoyments we have to end with that..if we want
god realisation day and night we have to crave for his benediction
forgetting food, clothing, shelter, when great saints sat in penance
they forgot everything all round their body, snake borough, ant
borough, even small plants grew on their body but they were deeply
towards god hood.
2.God intoxication has to be experienced not explained.
3.yes when sri ramakrishna 1836-1886 was married to a five year old
girl sharadadevi and when she came to age and came to him he asks do
you want children from me or the whole world will call you by you
being a sanyasini, she said yeas they never had physical relation, sri
ramakrishna almost everyday in smadhi and at time three days continue
and mother would be afraid that he is dead but when disciples uttered
Naryana loudly in his ears he came to real state
4. no read bharateeya vidya bhavan book how god came in to my life
5. just be doing mundane things of getting up brushing, toilet,
bathing, dressing, eating, working 9 to 5 sundays sleeping, then one
day retiring, suffering from disease and dying...we have to serve this
world that is one form of worship and god realisation
6. they have contributed that spiritual and moral education will only
give everlasting peace...you may have all the riches of the world but
you dont have contentment what is the use this comes from godly
thoughts

Swami Krishnananda

-------------------------------------------

Fundamental question is framed within you, arises within you-when you are stuck
up and are not able to cover up or find a logical, rational, satisfactory
explanation in respect of ‘what is happening’ or ‘what is troubling
you’.
Things are there as they are’, ‘happenings are there as they are’ (liked
or disliked)-when the element clamouring ‘why they are so’ is not
there-oneness may touch you. Now any action is relaxed and creative.
God is essentially used as an explanation, a device to cover up pain and
uncertainty. If the comfort of this explanation is not there, see what you find
out?
What is being conveyed is that if you just do not depend upon what is referred
as God, you are one with yourself, one with pain and uncertainty you are facing.
Here you have a brush with Truth, the Original energy.
You may authentically know ‘what God means’.
You may see Fundamental Expressions on the web.

Regarding sense pleasures-Energy is dissipated when you escape the uneasiness
generated on facing contradictions, negativity, uncertainty, confusion by ideas,
explanations, complaining, blaming, feeling guilty, future will be alright, by
addiction to sense pleasures. When this escape is just noticed, energy begins to
rise. One is one with oneself. One with the Original.
Y V Chawla

-----------------------------------------------------\

Dear Sadaks,
We are not restricted by pleasures and desires. But there is law on this. You
love your wife NOT next door wife. Love thy neighbour as thyself Do not cast
eyes on neighbours wife, are in bible and in our scripts with detail. Then
pleasures are resricted on certain days and NOT in daylight. That only for
health benefits of humans. DONT worry GOD exists or NOT. Are you pure in your
thoughts?
B.S.

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Pranam
The questions, and the responses are so enlightening.
Seeking God is growth. It is focused on and use of/living strengths each
individual is gifted with. Pursuing pleasures is bringing down our strengths we
are gifted with there by getting into regression and not living life completely
Humbly
Veena

------------------------------------------------

Dear Sanjivaji,
<(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in
conflict ? What relation it has with realisation ? Why we cannot have both ?
(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god ?>

Sense pleasure is not the appropriate word, It should be sense need. This can go
hand in hand with god realisation. By realising god we get peace ofmind.
Hari Malla

-----------------------------------------------------

Dear Sanjeev,

I have read in detail Swami Ramsukhdasji's teachings on sense pleasure.
Sometimes, it can be confusing.

(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in conflict ? What
relation it has with realisation ? Why we cannot have both ?

Swami Ramsukhdasji emphasized on accepting reality as it is. If we can't see the
reality, it is OK. We can intellectually understand it and accept it.

He states that the interaction of sense with sense objects whether be
pleasurable or unpleasurable don't stay. The problem is that we consider them to
be permanent and try to hold on to them. We want the interaction of senses and
their objects to stay forever. These interactions leave us and we are always the
same even among-st all the changes. If you have vision that the interaction of
senses and their objects is temporary and you act with this knowledge of truth,
you are acting in accordance with the reality.

When Swamiji refers to the obstacle, he means that don't see your true nature as
product of body and senses. If you can't see, at least accept that you are
permanent and changeless. With that vision, be happy and equanimous. Don't let
these changes bother you.

Most people get attached to sense pleasures and give them so much importance.
They suffer if they can't get something. They become too much happy if they
attain something. They can even hurt others to satisfy their senses. Swamiji is
saying that this kind of attitude is in conflict with the truth as these people
are acting as if sense gratification will stay forever.

There is saying - "act as if you will die tomorrow". If you are confused about
what to do, then ask yourself what will you do if you will die tomorrow. If you
will die tomorrow, then you will choose most meaningful action for one remaining
day. Whatever you will do is most important! So. select that action. Swamiji is
using the similar logic.

We cannot have both because accepting permanence of sense pleasure and then,
trying to hold on to it is against its temporary nature.

(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god ?

I would rephrase. What benefit one gets by realizing the true reality and
realizing your true nature or identity? You have to ask yourself this question.
Nobody can answer that for you.

(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort ?

The reality is that you always give up sense pleasure. They never stay. You can
eat ice cream or any tasty sweet for only some time. After that, you will get
tired of it. You will want something new. So, just accept the truth that these
pleasure don't stay. That is it. You can renounce something if you have it.
Actually, no one can renounce sense pleasure. You just accept the reality that
these pleasure are not within you.

(5) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination ?

Lets not talk about this topic. Lets keep it to accepting true reality and
accepting one's own existence as something beyond body.

(7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human civilisation ?
Have they enriched any facet of human life ? Why should they be considered ideal
?

Bhagavatam (11/2/41) - "Ether, fire, air, water, earth, the sun and other
luminaries, all living beings, the directions, trees and other plants, the
rivers and oceans — all these are body of Hari (the Supreme God). One should bow
down to whatever exists in this world seeing them to be manifestation of Hari."

I also ask this question. My view is that God realized person is supposed to see
God in all. Such person is respectful, kind, loving and well-wisher of all. He
serves people around him as he sees them as manifestation of God. He does not
put down others or look down upon others. I think we need such people in the
world. Unfortunately, such people are difficult to find. Therefore, I try to
develop such attitude and help others to do so.

I have found that many times religion or God does more harm than good. Many
horrible acts are done in the name of religion or God. Caste system and attitude
towards women are few examples. But the true religion will bring kindness, love,
appreciation, servitude and happiness in our lives.

Regards,
Murari Das

--------------------------------------------

Dear ALL, Sanjeev in particular,

Namaskar!

The main obstacle to god realization is attraction to sense pleasures is not
wholly correct, since these very sense pleasures on correct & logical
understanding could be used properly to achieve God' Realization !! This would
be more clear when you read my full response to various questions Sanjeev has
put.

To my mind, the main obstacle to god's realization is One's own illusion-ed Ego
of Mind (the feeling of existence) as a separate identity!! The fact is that no
duality exists in Reality and appears only as our ignorance of fact that we are
considering the duality as Truth due to our continual living with the duality
You, me, public and God as separate identities. This duality has set in because
of our Mind's illusion sine the time immoral . There are infinite number of
minds which further have been developed into infinite separate physical as well
as metaphysical identities!!
So, in the background of above ABSOLUTE REALITY in view, here under are my
possible answers to Sanjeev's question (s):

(1) Why sense pleasures and god realization should be in conflict ?
Ans: They are not in conflict! God realization i.e., Stage of one's own Self
realized person becomes a subject and no longer remains an object while Sense
Pleasures have been before and after God realization as properties of Mind.
Realized person even after attainment of God hood continues be a separate
identity for other common persons but not for his own TRUE SELF.

(1 A) What relation it has with realization ?
Ans: SENSE PLEASURES are nothing but experimental tools which could be used as
means to understand the "TRUE NATURE OF ONE'S OWN SELF"[God's Realization]. The
relation between the two is so immense that one cannot exist without the other.
As said earlier, Realized Self is Subjectively imaginary Object, whose property
is Mind enjoying the Sense Pleasures. Now it is up to the striving person for
God's Realization to use Mind and Sense Pleasures as tool to understand the
Reality or, use Mind as tool for entertainment and remain in ignorance of
Duality! In the former case Sense Pleasures would become advantageous in God
realization while in latter case it would become hindrance!!

(1 B)Why we cannot have both ?
Ans: Definitely, you can have both at time but you have to remain aware of Non
Duality, The Absolute Reality. You may refer full Bagwad Gita and understand
what would the state of the person who is realized as well as enjoy Sense
pleasures. He is no other than Lord Krishna Himself!

(2) What benefit the person gets by realizing god ?
Ans: Benefit is: Nothing would sadden or please him!! Pleasure or sorry would
not touch the realized person!! He would be present every where, all powerful
and exist in whole of universe. The benefits are immense or better infinite, not
possible write all!!

(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort ?
Ans: Rewards have been already mentioned in Answer no (2). I too had put same
question sometime back on this very forum! Learned person did mention their
views which were of finite nature only. But in due course, out of my own deep
thinking and understanding, I may tell you that God realization is not a
BANYAGIRI (Business) but is knowledge providing about who really you are!! You
would get a state of Bliss (Infinite Happiness, pleasure, comfort whose effect
would not diminish with the passage of time, the state is beyond expression and
even beyond feeling!!

(4) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination ?
Ans: Evidence as vivid as you exist and asking the child like question to grown
up Expert. It has been discussed some where else also that God exists as truly
as you and me exist!

(5) If there is no evidence what proof we have that going on this path will give
you
any desired results or do we realize at the end of journey that we have wasted
all our life ?
Ans: If above answers you have understood well, I do not think I should still
reply this question of yours. Well for your benefit, I would reply this as
well: Just try to Leave everything including Gods Realization business but try
to go deep inside your own self and search for a pin pointed place i.e., which
part of your body you (WHAT YOU CALL AS YOU exist. God's realization no way is
different than your own TRUE REALIZATION!

(6) What contribution people who realized god have given to human civilization ?
Have they enriched any facet of human life ? Why should they be considered ideal
?

Think of Sant Kabir and remember his well known saying:

LALEE MERE LALL KE JIT DEKHON TIT LAL,
LALAN DEKHAN MAIN GAIE MAIN BE HOGAYEE LAL!!

Realized persons take birth, live and act to teach masses through their
presence, words, speech and even actions!

I am
KKK
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

---------------------------------------------------------
Only mahatma, who has experience self fused with almighty can explain Sanjeev
thought processing -
i appreciate both. It gives me immense satisfaction, good hope onto my daily
struggle of mind and heart,
continue coming back to him and pray all the time to show me the right path
since I am a paapi, budhiheen,
agyaani - can't fathom his benevolent nature, power and omnipresence; including
my heart and soul.

- thank you both of you.
BALAGURU RAMANAN
----------------------------------------------

Questions worth debating........

Shrikant G(Jee)

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