Thursday, June 20, 2013

[gita-talk] Re: Main Obstacle to God Realization is Attraction to Sense Pleasures

 

shree hari

this brings a closure to this topic. thank you all for your participation. Gita Talk Moderator, Ram Ram

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You say we the main obstacle to god realisation is attraction to sense
pleasures.
So my question is
(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in
conflict ? What relation it has with realisation ? Why we cannot have both ?
(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god ?
(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort ?
(5) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination ?
(6) If there is no evidence what proof we have that going on this path will give
you
any desired results or do we realize at the end of journey that we have wasted
all our life ?
(7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human civilisation
?
Have they enriched any facet of human life ? Why should they be considered ideal
?

Sanjeev

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Dear Sadhak,

You got really basic questions, first step to spirituality. nice.here are the answers-

(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in
conflict ?
Sense pleasure and God realization is not in conflict. Only attachment to sense pleasure has conflict with God, because when you are attached to sense pleasures you want to enjoy it continuously, and if the objects of sense pleasure are not available you will become angry/ frustrated and will suffer. on the other hand if they are available , you will become greedy for more and more. Greed will give birth to many other vices and will create sufferings. so both way it will create sufferings! certainly no one want to suffer.

What relation it has with realization ? Why we cannot have both ?

Attchment to sense objects leads to suffering, and self realization is being free from suffering, they are opposites...
The only thing Before self-realization it is nearly impossible to remain unattached to sense objects. But after realization, you can have both!!

(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god ?

A self realized person is free from sufferings!!! He is embodiment of love, peace and bliss. He can manifest anything .

(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort ?

Yes, you are just dropping something which will be snatched away from you anyway, and you are getting some thing which will give you immense joy, unending bliss and much more...

(5) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination ?

Gos is not separate from you. You are GOD. Do you need proof for yr existence ? Self realization and God realization is one and the same.

(6) If there is no evidence what proof we have that going on this path will give
you any desired results or do we realize at the end of journey that we have wasted
all our life ?
Arjuna asked the same question. But Krishna replied,"Nothing is wasted." You can eat, drink, have your usual life, just remain unattached and do your spiritual practices. surely you will get both .

(7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human civilisation
?
They kept humanity ALIVE. They kept this possibility alive that human being can become super human being, they made human being realized that they are Divine being , here on earth, having human experience....Just realize your own true nature, which is nothing but love, peace and bliss, and live that life where all dimensions are open, possibility of expansion is open, explore and enjoy !!!
You got the miraculous human body, which has amazing possibilities, why waste it in petty things which could be done in animal body ? explore spiritual dimension and see how all miraculous powers, all amazing things will start happening in yr life, all impossible will become I AM Possible!!!

You are the KING, realize it, why beg for penny ?

May all good and auspicious things manifest in your life.
Love and respect,
Sadhna
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Saadhaka could read Shree Sanjeev's submissions here regarding some points of discussion. Humble Saadhaka wishes to have Answers from Shree Sanjeevjee to a few questions.
Who is your father? [Name and identity]
What proof do you have that he is actually your father? Saadhaka won't admit other persons stating that information as none is actually an eye witness to it.
Please come forward.
Humbly,
Saadhaka

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Hari Om

KNOWLEDGE....what a word it is. In spirituality and svaadhyaay you come across this word quite frequently. Gita has devoted verses upon verses on this " Knowledge" ( Jnana) , " knowable" ( what is fit to be known"...Jneya) and need to know. Knowledge for a striver of Truth, SADHAK, is different than what is generally perceived in the world . The best method of acquiring knowledge is CONTEMPLATION ( VICHAAR). It is a law: You know regarding the world (ASAT) by disconnecting with the world; you know regarding God / Self ( SAT) by becoming indivisible with it ( getting connected with Self/ God). Whatever an ordinary man knows or understands is " learning" ( SEEKHANA) ...something which you have read and heard but that is not knowledge or acceptance. Correct knowledge is: ACCEPT there is nothing mine in this entire world and I don't need anything. Now this is something which if you contemplate , you will find to be 100% truthful. We know this, but do we accept this ? Real knowledge consists in accepting what you already know. Where is knowledge in you, if you do not accept that? A parrot learns, but does not accept ...keeps uttering RAAM...RAAM , but forgets RAAM..RAAMwhen cat catches it and starts uttering TAIN...TAIN. That is not knowledge , that is merely learning. Hence it is ACCEPTANCE of truth which is real knowledge not learning about a fact. Knowledge without experience is merely faith/ belief and not knowledge. An option less belief appears knowledge-like, but in fact it is not knowledge.

There are three places for knowledge. Knowledge of sensory organs; knowledge of intellect and knowledge of that which is beyond intellect ( SELF) .In the knowledge of that which is beyond intellect...SELF knowledge...there is no triad. It is ABSOLUTE knowledge. There is no knower or knowing there. There is only knowledge. These 3 drishtis ( visions) are described by Scriptures as INDRIYA DRISHTI ( knowledge of sensory organs), BUDDHI DRISHTI ( knowledge of intellect) and VIVEKA DRISHTI ( knowledge of Self). Where there is knowledge of sensory organs, there is belief / faith but no contemplation. Where there is knowledge of sensory organs...there is only BHOGA , no YOGA. By knowledge of sensory organs, BHOGA emerges. By knowledge of intellect, YOGA emerges and by knowledge of Self ... TATWA JNANA ( real absolute knowledge) emerges. Hence strivers should not try to know the SAT (TRUTH ) by using ASAT ( false) means ( eg sensory organs, mind, intellect) ...They should try to know the truth by getting disconnected with ASAT... They should use VIVEKA , not intellect, mind or sensory organs, That effortlessly connects you with truth.

Jnana and Prem have to be indivisible. In Jnana, there must be Prem. In Prem, there must be Jnana. If you separate Jnana and Prem....then Prem without Jnana is "lust/ desire" and Jnana without Prem is CIPHER ( Zero...SHOONYA) !!!! That Zero is deficient form. By Laws of Nature....knowledge of sensory organs has been given to you for service AND NOT FOR BHOGA. Knowledge of intellect is for RENUNCIATION and not FOR ARGUMENTS OR DISPUTES. One who does not respect his already acquired knowledge, he can not respect teachers and Scriptures. JUST AS: One who does not use his eyes, can not make use of light of Sun also.

Beauty about these 3 DRISHTIS is.......what is visible to you by INDRIYA DRISHTI as truthful, beautiful, permanent, worth indulging into , desirable... , the same thing appears to be temporary, ugly, and momentary by using BUDDHI DRISHTI. BUT when you use VIVEKA DRISHTI, then know this fact that nothing is visible...you realise/experience total deficiency/ non existence of anything except Self/God....PREM there gives you AKHAND ANANDA !!!!!

Hence experience is the sole yardstick of knowledge. That experience comes to you by ACCEPTANCE and by nothing else. Hence mistake is not in " not knowing" but is in not accepting what you already know. When we do not accept, what we already know, and when we say that which is not part of our experience ( we say but do not accept and thus have no experience) ...then we are mixing Realisation into Non Realisation, and Non Realisation into Realisation...!!! But once you experience, nothing remains as a remainder, except you yourSELF, and then...who is to say what and to whom?

To sum up, those who advocate or try to justify BHOGA , are merely using their INDRIYA DRISHTI and are talking of bookish knowledge/ experience less knowledge. They MUST use first BUDDHI DRISHTI and get into YOGA mode, at least. They must move in direction of accepting what they already know.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Jai Hanuman

This is Gita Talk Forum. Here we don't talk about monkeys or chimpanzees, we talk about Dharma - duty. The real benefit to humanity consists in RENUNCIATION. People here often talk about SERVICE first to SELF and then to OWN FAMILY and then to World at large. They want to be first happy themselves, and then have goal of making others happy.

Sadhaks should first understand what is happiness ? How does it come to you? As per Gita....happiness comes to you when you are peaceful ( ASHANTASYA KUTO SUKHAH?- Says Gita- where is happiness to that who is not peaceful?). Hence in order to be happy, you should be peaceful. Now question is how peace arises in you. TYAAGAAT SHANTI ANANTARAM- says Gita - By renunciation , the peace instantly comes unto you.

So any one who desires to be happy himself first , must RENOUNCE !!! Real renunciation is always effortless. What is Renunciation? Not accepting anything to be me or mine- this is renunciation. This is unfortunate that we are writing thesis in describing how it is impossible to renounce worldly pleasures ( sensory pleasures) ....while the fact is.,,,those pleasures are ceaselessly renouncing us !!!! Now our this feeling of "inability" to renounce worldly pleasures emerges from "desire to enjoy worldly pleasures" (SUKH LOLUPTA) ! Actually we are putting blame on renunciation, scriptures, religion.,,but real cause is WE DON'T WANT TO RENOUNCE...WE WANT PETTY PLEASURES...like a goat in the farm of a butcher enjoys grazing.

Hence it is stupidity to believe that BHOGA can not be renounced. Don't we renounce the dearest things and people for a good sleep every day? People don't think.,,they just utter !! Tell me, the pleasures which never remain with us and which are continuously renouncing us, is it easy to renounce them or to enjoy them? The form of DEATH and RENUNCIATION is same, only result is different. The result of death is re-birth, result of renunciation is IMMORTALITY. Death destroys the worldly thing, renunciation destroys the very connection with worldly things.

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala

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Hari Om

Yes.....as Swamiji stated the main obstacle to God Realisation is attraction to sense pleasures !!! There is no place for sensual pleasures in human life...the indulgence into them means ANIMALHOOD. Human life is not meant for BHOGAS, it is YOGA. When we realise the need for God in our life, then the attraction to sense pleasures gets extinguished...and as soon as that is extinguished, you get disconnected from inert and experience ANANDA...ever blissful ness.

Actually, whatever one may talk, without being heartless (cruel) , dishonest, cheap and slave...you can not enjoy sensory pleasures. Without there being sorrow in your life, you can not enjoy worldly pleasures. It is a Law: if you have compassion residing in your heart, you can not consume worldly pleasures !!! Without there being vice of "lust" , you can not enjoy union with opposite sex, without there being vice of "greed" , you can not enjoy being wealthy, without there being vice of "MAMTA", you can not find pleasure with family. By your enjoying sensory pleasures, your anti-VIVEKA gets nourished. The result of sensory pleasures is ....diseases and sorrows. When you indulge in sensory pleasures, your capacity to enjoy as well as the thing which you are enjoying...both get finished. It is only to enable you to know the reality of BHOGA, that limited and controlled BHOGA is allowed by Scriptures eg sanctity for marriage.

Coming to society, note....by indulging into sensual pleasures, PRAMAAD ( doing that which should not be done/ not doing that which should be done...dereliction of duty), violence etc type of vices take birth effortlessly and those vices start hurting yourself and society automatically. There is no BHOGI, who has escaped dependence ( slavery) , inertness and loss of strength!!!

In BHOGA, you continuously move towards slavery and incapacity....as a law !!! One who keeps his eye on the result of sensory pleasures...EASILY gets un attracted to them !!! When you consume worldly pleasures, you can not see the things which you are consuming. If you see them, then you can not consume. Therefore seeing is possible only when you are not consuming. BHOGA PRAVRATTI , therefore is not seeing but only consuming pleasure in the beginning and sorrow at the end !!! Actually the quantum of pleasure which is there in attraction/liking of a BHOGA PRAVARTTI, that quantum is not in ACTUAL consumption. In the beginning whatever pleasure you get, in the middle it drops down drastically and in the end there is not even shadow of that pleasure remaining...on the contrary there are diseases ( ROG) only as the result. One who is BHOGI , can never protect his character...it is a law.

Hence in human life, the consumption of sensory pleasures is allowed only to develop dis attraction with it. This dis attraction comes naturally to you, when you experience the above facts...resulting incapacity, slavery and destruction of the consumed object...!!!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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-

namo namaH,

>The basis for the above statements is SHRUTI ( Upanishads/ Gita/ Scriptures of
Sanatan Dharma, Saints and Sages, my elders and parents, History) ;

In my undertanding, shruti includes veda (samhita, braahmana, aaranyaka).

It would be great ly appreciated if the relevant references are given. eg. where
does ekaki na ramae" occur in shruti.

Please do not take it as kutarka, it is a humble request as it will
prompt/encourage others to read the fragments in the original context.

Regards,

aa no bhadraaH kratavo yantu vishvataH

Rajagopal

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Hari Om

So long as the Questioner is willing to attend and respond , let us tell him
about the truth. The moment he does KUTARKA ( bad arguments) , I will tell him
this is KUTARKA, and stop responding. His last message Kutarkas are ignored. Let
us start from SN 1. The Questioner must respond, if he fails to do, no further
continuation. He must not skip any Q ( Like he skipped many in his last
response).

1 SHRUTIS say : EKAKI NA RAMATE ( God did not relish being alone). Hence out of
Himself only He created this Universe for PREM . All Jeevas are direct fragment
of God. Your Q is what is the cause of Creation of this world. Answer is : PREM
( Love). He created the world for PREM.

Q-1 : "What is the basis for this statement "?

The basis for the above statements is SHRUTI ( Upanishads/ Gita/ Scriptures of
Sanatan Dharma, Saints and Sages, my elders and parents, History) ; YUKTI ( my
own mind, intellect, logic and rationale) and ANUBHUTI ( my own direct
experiences, perception of the world around me). I believe in God. I believe in
Scriptures. I believe in Saints and Sages. I believe in Sanatan Dharma. I have
nothing to do with your belief, if any. I am here to answer your queries.

"First you assume there is something called god."

Of course ! I don't assume...I accept . JUST AS: You accepted that Mr So and So
is your this birth father. I accept God to be my Eternal Father.

"So exactly what is this entity ? "

To understand what is this entity, you should first accept that there may be
some entity like that. In order to learn English language, you must accept that
the first alphabet is " A" . If you start arguing as to why first alphabet is A
, how it is A , why it pronounced as A , why B can not be first alphabet, who
said first letter is A , etc etc , you will spend whole of your life, drawing
CIPHER and will never be able to learn English.

"How do you know it exists ? "

I don't know, I believe and I have reasons to believe. If my existence is due
to my parents, then my parents' existence should be due to my grand parents. My
grand parents' existence should be due to great grand parents. Now keep going
backwards...in the end you will find one male and female. I believe that those
one male and one female was created by Paramatma as He did not relish being
alone and resolved LET ME BECOME MANY ( EKOSHYAM BAHUSHYAAMI). This is my
belief, I damn care as to yours. I am duty bound to answer Qs on this Divine
Forum, and that I am doing. That is it.

"How do you know how it felt Whether lonely or otherwise ?"

I don't know. I believe in Shrutis and Shrutis have said so. How do you know
that you are Son of Mr So and So ? JUST AS: You believe SIMILARLY: I believe. I
believe in what Shrutis say.

"Who told you cause of any thing is Prem ?"

Cause of anything is not Prem. Where did I say cause of anything is Prem? Learn
to read English language properly. Cause of creating this world, Jeevas , Jagat
is Prem. Saints and Sages and Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma tell me so. I believe
in them. SHRUTI, YUKTI AND ANUBHOOTI - History, Logic and Experience support my
belief.

" What prem means for material world ? "

Material world, at the outset, does not exist. It is your mind which has created
it JUST AS: You dream that an old man has brought a cow who gave birth to a
calf. Now this old man, cow and calf actually do not exist, your mind created
them , all at one time, without any reference to Time, at once, and thus only
you dreamt about the same. However, in this world , as it exists for each and
every Jeeva individually, Prem ( Selfless Divine Love) for God is the final
answer as to the cause of this material world. JUST AS: Mothers' Love for child
means everything for child SIMILARLY: Prem is the final frontier for humanity.
There is nothing more important than Prem in human life.

"Can you say oxygen and hydrogen fell ‘prem’ towards each other to
create water ? "

No ! They were deliberately made by Paramatma to create water so that world may
get nourished and their dream may survive as long as they do not wake up and
realise the Truth.

"It seems to be very funny assumption if you are seriously advocating it."

What seems how to who, is not my concern. I damn care as to how it seems to you.
I am answering your Qs , I have nothing to do with your mental equipment. I am
not forcing you to ACCEPT anything.

Answers to your further Qs will be given only upon receipt of response by you to
the above.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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If you find the society around you in total decay, you have to analyse as to
what went
wrong. If people run after renunciation no matter what ever spiritual benefits
it may bring,
one thing is pretty sure - it ruins the economy of the nation. Once economy is
ruined,
state machinery, political institutions, knowledge, dharma, and social contract
decays.
You see decay around you due to this. Society is thrown into slavery, slaughter
of
innocent, rape of women, and dire poverty. This is what you will find in the
history of India.

On the other hand you cannot show any thing positive resulting from renunciation
and
all the talk about spiritual progress and god realisation. It is heaven like
that of drug
addicts. Only people indulging in intoxication of drugs find heaven in their
miserable
living. God realisation should be treated on the same level and should be
discarded.

If any thing, humans should strive for next step of evolution. You must be
aware
chimpanzees have 98% similarity with human DNA. So just 2% difference make the
difference between Chimpanzees and human beings. Just imagine what will be the
difference in present day human beings and if some race makes just 2% progress
over
them. We must not waste our time in god realization, renunciation of pleasures
etc.
which have shown disastrous results if only if we have vision to accept the
reality.

Unfortunately, people who have some intellectual background are busy misguiding
the society totally disregarding the actual results which we can see all around
us.
They are wasting time in repeating the same conventional wisdom instead of
contributing
something fresh and innovative in the light of scientific developments. That is
the
tragedy of this society.

Sanjeev

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Jai Hanuman

Said Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj:

JAASU SATYATA TEN JAD MAAYA
BHAAS SATYA IVA MOH SAHAAYA!!

By existence of real Paramatma only, this mayaa ( Jagat/creation/world) appears
as real due to stupidity ( moodhata).

Due to stupidity this world may appear real but actually it is not real.
Actually the scene ( seen) world and seer eyes, mind, intellect etc ...both are
of same caste, both are unreal. Unreal only is perusing unreal. Similarly, pure
Self and Paramatma both are of same caste. Now out of these 2 groups of two
different castes ( One- World and body Two- Self and God) , Self and God are
EVER RECEIVED , but body and World are NEVER RECEIVED. Body and world are
clearly unreal. Reason is body and world are constantly and ceaselessly
changing. They do not remain as it is for even a fraction of a second or moment.
Now that which does not remain static even for a fraction of a moment, how can
that thing be ever real ? It is your direct experience ! Where the childhood has
gone? Where that old situation/ status/ circumstance is now? So...everything is
getting clubbed in NON EXISTENCE...in NOT !!! Hence clearly world is unreal, non
existent. It is merely reflecting , it is not real.

Though, everything is getting merged into NOT, but the one who is witnessing
them to be merging into NOT, is that witness also merging into NOT ? No...! One
who witnesses is remaining AS IT IS. Self and Paramatma are witnesses and hence
they are REAL. Had Self also been merging into NOT, then who will know something
merging into NOT?

"I AM" - this existence of yours, your being ness ( honapan) is Real and is EVER
RECEIVED. This I AM, never ceases to exist when you are in waking state, dream
state, unconscious state, deep sleep state or Samadhi state. It remains AS IT
IS. But you are not able to see it. It is experience form. Do you have any doubt
as to whether you exist or not? No....! Now tell me how are you, how do you
look? You can not reply to it, but there is no doubt in you as whether you exist
or not. YOU actually are EVER PRESENT AND RECEIVED. But you are not SEEABLE. You
can not be seen. You can not indicate by using word THIS , your Svaroop or
existence. JUST AS: By eye you see the world, but by what organ you can see the
eye itself?

Hence your existence and existence of God, is invisible. What is visible (
world) is unreal , and what is not visible is real. Saints have said:

HAI SO SUNDAR HAI SADAA, NAHIN SO SUNDAR NAAHI !

NAHI SO PRAGAT DEKHIYE, HAI SO DEEKHE NAAHI !!

What IS is always real, what is NOT is never real. ( Dilemma is that) What is
NOT, is visible, and what IS , is not visible.

Precisely therefore, it is stupidity that makes us consider NOT to be IS and IS
to be NOT.

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala
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Dear Sanjeev,

You wrote - "Every one knows it is impossible to give up any pleasures for life
time and every one is bound to fail. So people will end up blaming themselves if
they do not realise the promised
goal and still think the theory must be right only they are failing. But the
fact is if you really try to verify the theory and know its contradictions, it
will fail miserably and soon people
will discard it. That is a simple trick to blame the followers and save the pet
theory. Otherwise your happiness and enjoyment of sensual pleasures have no
connection with any kind of knowledge."

Your views are supported by Gita. You have summarized why Hindu religion has
failed. Almost all Hindus cannot attain these ideals and they give up pursuing
religion. Then, they fail miserably and don't even follow basics of service to
people, truthfulness, love, kindness and compassion. What is the use of talking
of sense control when they can't even practice truthfulness, love, kindness and
service.

Gita has described different realities. It has simultaneously described multiple
concepts depending on one's state. People with realization of Gita will agree
with you and even Swami Ramsukhdasji will agree with you.

Sense control should be followed first in context of following basics of
religion i.e. service to others (including oneself) and not hurting others
(including oneself). Even to serve and not hurt others, one needs control. One
can achieve this goal by being happy oneself. One can't serve others if one is
not happy. So be happy without hurting others and then, help others to do the
same i.e. be happy without hurting others. This is summary of dharma. Other
principles come after this basic of dharma is followed.

Regards,
Murari Das

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1 SHRUTIS say : EKAKI NA RAMATE ( God did not relish being alone). Hence out of
Himself only He created this Universe for PREM . All Jeevas are direct fragment
of God. Your Q is what is the cause of Creation of this world. Answer is : PREM
( Love). He created the world for PREM.

Q-1 : What is the basis for this statement ? First you assume there is
something called god.So exactly what is this entity ? How do you know it exists
? How do you know how it felt Whether lonely or otherwise ? Who told you cause
of any thing is Prem ? What prem means for material world ? Can you say oxygen
and hydrogen fell ‘prem’ towards each other to create water ? It seems to
be very funny assumption if you are seriously advocating it.

2. How can you say that by God Realisation you do not get enriched? Have you
realised God? No...! Then where is basis for your statement? Experiences arise
out of acceptance effortlessly...It is a law. Acceptance is the only cause for
your experiences. argue on this law...if you can !!! A thing which arises
effortlessly can not be your goal. Your goal has to be acceptance of TRUTH. Can
there be any better experience than the experience of PREM? Tell me...! This
PREM effortlessly arises in you, when you accept the truth: I AM GOD's , ONLY
GOD IS MINE, NOTHING ELSE IS MINE. Try it...not only you but everything around
you shall get effortlessly enriched. Or tell me any other way by which so called
humanity or civilisation can get enriched. Now answer...!

Q2 â€" Have you realized god ? No ! Then how can you say it enriches it ?
What I see is extreme deprivation around me especially in people running after
god realization. That is the law ! There is no law as stated by you that
acceptance causes any experience. To say I am god’s and god is mine you have
to first understand and prove its existence. You are assuming something which
you first need to prove.

3. MIRAGE....what a beautiful word you chose. But there is one error not in the
selection of word by you but in its application. Mirage is not God but the
world...!!! HA...!!! You prove how God is MIRAGE or shall I prove how this world
is a mirage ? You choose who should initiate the deliberations. Ideally you
should set the ball rolling. Now answer....!

Q3 - Yes go ahed and prove how this world is mirage and god it not. I
challenge your wisdom.

3 Those who do not have anger, those who love others, those who get pained by
sorrows of other....if according to you those people are disastrous for
society...then tell me What kind of people are not disastrous for society? Now
answer....!!!

4 Renunciation is not a loosing battle if your acceptance is real. Your
acceptance of false is real. Is not a dream real when you are dreaming? Is not
experience of a snake in a rope real when you have accepted the rope to be a
snake? Is not your acceptance of world real ? If that is real then how rejection
is unreal ? Now answer....!!!!

Q4 - If every thing is fragment of your real god, pls tell me where is the
place of unreal in this universe. Only your ignorance is real.

5 It is a law ( Come on Dear Questioner..!!! .) - You can not enjoy a thing , if
you are aware that the same is KHSANABHANGUR ( perishable/ momentary).

Q5 â€" Sorry friend. When the person who enjoys himself is not permanent there
is no question of any thing worth enjoying to be permanent. And as I said,
kshanbhangur is a necessity to be pleasure and not permanence â€" do one
experiment. If you like Shreekhand, start eating it day in and day out every
time you feel hungry. In other words making the pleasure permanent feature in
your life. And just check in how many days your permanence of pleasure turns in
to nausea. Even the very thought or sight you will turn you away from it
feeling nausea. So is the case with every thing. Hence I repeat pleasure has
to be necessarily kshanbhangur. Or soon it turns into nightmare.

6 Are you dead or alive ? Now answer...!!!

Q6 - Is your ideal permanent unchanging thing dead or alive ? That is the
question you need to answer. You have to tell how you will distinguish dead
from alive if it is only unchanging and permanent.

7. Elucidate. So far your statement is incomprehensible. Who is Sherlock
Holmes?What does he do ?

Q7- Never mind who is Sherlock Holmes if you have not read anything other than
religious literature. â€" just understand the principle that you must not let
the larger picture shadow problems at hand.

8. Who is giving lectures to whom? We are answering your Qs. You invited us to
enrich you. We are doing so. Of course, both acceptance and renunciation are
effortless. They are KARAN NIRAPEKSHA. What efforts you made to renounce
childhood and adopt youth or renounce youth and adopt old age? What efforts do
you make live or die? What efforts did you make to accept the world as me or
mine? What efforts do you make to get connected or disconnected with body?

Q8 - The assumption is you need renounce some thing which is very much
questionable. And renunciation is not at all easy. Ask any of your honest
sadhaks if they find it easy and then we will talk. More over path of
renunciation is totally irrelevant. This is not the pre-requisite for any
thing. You are only creating false connection.

9.Entire para about knowledge is childish and irrelevant. It proves nothing. Did
Einstein say God does not exist? Why do you consider Einstein to be yardstick ?
What is the topic under deliberation? Can a child understand value and taste of
mango if it does not give up eating clay? How can perishable satisfy
imperishable?

Q9 â€" Para is not childish your understanding is childish. Read it again and
understand the point that I am making. It is written in very simple language.
All your question related with it and statements are childish and devoid of even
common sense.

10 - O Dear Questioner ! You are calling God as mirage and world to be real !!!
Totally reverse is the truth. Know now: The world is brought into existence due
to spiritual ignorance/stupidity.

Q-10 : Oh dear answerer ! whose stupidity and ignorance brought this world into
existence ? This is contradictory of your assumption of god and this world being
fragments of only god. So from where the ignorance and stupidity arises in god
?

11: And you compare these bondage creating flashes of non existent pleasures (
actually only pains exist there all along..pure unadulterated pains and nothing
else except pains. It is stupidity that makes us see pleasures there ) with
BLISS associated in God realisation !!! How funny !!! Aaaah ...!!!

Q 11 - Since you are spreading falsehood and ignorance in my name I had to come
back after 8000 years. Understand this O ignorant soul.

Sanjeev

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sanjeev,

This is my second response.

You wrote: Otherwise your happiness and enjoyment of sensual pleasures have no
connection with any kind of knowledge.

I can quote many statements from Swami Ramsukhdasji that you are correct in
terms of spiritual knowledge. Spiritual knowledge is at the level of self which
transcends matter. So, it is not affected by sensual pleasures of physical body.

But material knowledge is dependent on discipline. I got very high rank in
IIT-JEE and it required sense control to gain knowledge to compete at that
level. I had to renounce TV, movies etc and spend 3-4 hours every day in
studies. Same way, we need discipline to be happy. For example, going to Hawaii
will give you happiness but you have to work hard to earn money to go to Hawaii.
Also, travelling even though gives happiness also requires hard work like
getting up early to visit tourist spots etc.

I think you will agree with this kind of sense control. My problem with many
Hindu practitioners is their aversion to be happy and their aversion to enjoy
life. On the other hand, my American friends work hard and earn money and then,
they spend money to be happy and share their happiness with family and others.
Somehow, many Hindu practitioners try to deny happiness but that is immature. I
have read Swamiji multiple times and I am confident that Swamiji does not want
us to deny ourselves the pleasures of life. He wants us to enrich our life
further with the knowledge of the self.

I myself take best from both east and west. I enjoy life and be happy. But at
the same time, try to keep the vision of self which enjoying life. I am not this
body and I will not die when body dies. I will exist after death and therefore,
I don't have fear of death. I don't have fear of suffering as I know that self
does not suffer. I ignore negative events in my life and enjoy the positive and
happy events of life. I spend time with family and enjoy with them. Me and my
son enjoy watching college basketball and football, NBA and NFL. We really enjoy
them and even go to games. My kids are very well behaved and happy. The
knowledge of self does not prevent me from enjoying simple things in my life
like sex, sports, movies, playing racquetball good time with friends and
family, camping etc.

Regards,
Murari Das

-----------------------------------------------------

Shree Vyasjee!
A fool is already under punishment (of being a fool), what more does he/she
deserve? Please describe in brief.
Humbly,
Saadhaka

----------------------------------------------------------

You Answer my Questions --- But I Question Your Answers !!!

I challenge all your assumptions -
Assumption (1) There is god Because there has to be cause for every thing ? (So
what is
the cause of god ? If it can exist without cause can this world not exist
without cause ? )
(2) aim of human life is realization of god (aim of this life is to have
different and variety of
experiences which makes the life and civilisation rich. Having just one
experience of
realisation of god does not make life rich in experience no matter how good the
experience
is. Societies running after god realisation are all ruined and at the bottom of
human
development index. Can this be ideal path - that is chasing the mirage without
verification
of your assumptions ? )
(3) God realisation makes the man ideal for this life (Those who do not know the
difference
between good and bad and hence do not have anger, love for good things, hate for
bad
things, sorrow for pain of others will do nothing to change the status. That
is disastrous
for the society)
(4) renunciation of worldly and sensual pleasures is the way to realise god.
(again doubtful
path as there is simply no connection. If it worldly pleasures is maya its
renunciation is
also illusion. When a person asked Adi Shankaracharya why he is running away
from a
charging elephant if the elephant is maya - he replied that his running is also
maya. So
your enunciation itself becomes illusion. So waste time on loosing battle ? )
(5) for pleasure to be pleasure, it has to be permanent. (My experience is
permanent things
do not remain pleasure for long. For pleasure to be pleasure, it has to be
'kshanbhangur'.
(ephemeral or transitory). This is the biggest folly of Indian philosophy.
(6) permanent and unchanging things are ideal (assuming again they are alive ! )
(If some thing is permanent and unchanging how you will distinguish it from dead
?)
(7) God realisation gives you wider picture which is good. (Read hillarious
story of
Sherlok Holmes for the correct perspective given below )
(8) Renunciation is easy and effortless (then why you have to give lectures
about it
day in and day out ? Won't it come naturally without any exhortation ? )

One after thought - . Knowledge does not depend on the behaviour of an
individual.
If I enjoy drinking Orange juice and eating mangoes, Einstein will not come and
say
Do you really enjoy drinking orange juice ? Well now give it up and then only
you will
understand theory of relativity. Newton will not come to me and say "Do you
enjoy
eating mangoes ? Well my dear friend, if you want to understand laws of motion,
you
will have to now stop eating mangoes because your happiness and enjoyment comes
in the way of understanding these theories. Why then our enlightened souls come
and
say give up sensual pleasures then only I will get ultimate knowledge (whatever
that may
mean) ? What is the logic ? Just because I have little pleasures and enjoyments
in my
life it comes in the path of understanding ?

I feel the reason is more cunning. Every one
knows it is impossible to give up any pleasures for life time and every one is
bound to fail.
So people will end up blaming themselves if they do not realise the promised
goal and
still think the theory must be right only they are failing. But the fact is if
you really try'
to verify the theory and know its contradictions, it will fail miserably and
soon people
will discard it. That is a simple trick to blame the followers and save the pet
theory.
Otherwise your happiness and enjoyment of sensual pleasures have no connection
with
any kind of knowledge.

Sanjeev
----------------------------------------------

WIDER PICTURE ? DON'T LOOSE SIGHT OF THE PROBLEM AT HAND LIKE HINDUS.

Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson went on a camping trip. After a good meal and a
bottle of wine they pitched their tent, lay down for the night, and went to
sleep. Some hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend. "Watson,
look up and tell me what you see."

Watson replied, "I see millions and millions of stars." "What does that tell
you?" inquired Holmes. Watson pondered for a minute, and said "Astronomically,
it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of
planets. Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo. Chronologically, I
deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three. Theologically, I can
see that God is All Powerful and that we are small and insignificant.
Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What
does the sky tell YOU, my friend?"

Holmes was silent for a minute; then spoke: "Watson, you imbecile. Some bastard
has stolen our tent."

This is what Lord Krishna says:
...
Thinking about sense objects will attach you to sense objects
Grow attached and you become addicted
Thwart your addiction, it turns to anger
Be angry and you confuse your mind
Confuse your mind, you forget the lessons of experience
Forget experience and you lose discrimination
Lose discrimination and you miss life's only purpose!
…Gita Ch2, Verse 62-63

siva prasad tata

-------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Bhoga and Yoga are contrary to each other. A BHOGI can never be a YOGI and a
YOGI can never be a BHOGI. An enjoyer of pleasures (bhogi) is a "rogi" (ill
person), not a "yogi" (equaminity). A bhogi will have to undergo suffering. He
can never be saved from suffering. So long as an aspirant has egoism (sense of
I-ness) in him, till then he is a `bhogi' (enjoyer of sense pleasures). A
pleasure seeker does not attain salvation- Therefore Tulasidasji Maharaj has
said -

Tulasi mamata Ram saun, samataa sab sansaar |
Raag ne rosh ne dosh dukh, daas bhai bhav paar || (Dohaavali 94)

Meera Das, Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------

yes there is no shadow of doubt in it, sensual pleasure is an
hindrance to god realisation
god bless you
swamiji - SWAMI KRISHNANANDA

-------------------------------------------------------

no no senses are treacherous and once involved in the act mind will be
always hovering around...as sri ramakrishna paramahamsa said if you
want ram get rid of kam and if you want kam you will not get
ram...kuch paana hai to kuch khona hai
god bless you
swamiji SWAMI KRISHNANANDA

----------------------------------------------------------
Om shanti.

Very good observation.

Thanking u

Love and light

Gokul

-------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Last message in fact covered first two Qs and touched upon Q 3 mainly it's "
reward worth the effort" portion. . But Q 3 deserves some more attention. It
talks about a price asked for God Realisation but completely forgets the price
which is being paid for indulgence into sense pleasures. Here the very price is
presumed to be renunciation of sense pleasures? It is therefore a really
hilarious and funny Q, completely unilateral and completely opposite to the
Truth. The very basis of this Q is erroneous.

Truth is that God Realisation is effortless. When something does not require any
efforts at all, then where is the very basis for its pricing vis a vis pricing
of sensual pleasures ? It is price less even otherwise. What efforts are needed
in renunciation? Now think of efforts needed in indulgence into sensual
pleasures and efforts needed in maintaining or trying to make them permanent?
Which thing commands more price? A thing which is effortless or a thing which
needs efforts ? Think of the futility of those efforts !!! In spite of your
efforts can you keep your youth intact? Can you prevent yourself from not
getting old or from not dying ? Can you continue eating forever? Will you not
get fed up? Can you keep indulging in sensual pleasures at all times? Can you
prevent consequential fatigue , boredom; or prevent destruction of the
pleasure from sensual gratification ; and from destruction of the very means of
getting them ; and can you prevent loss of very ability of yourself to continue
with the same forever? That apart...can you hold sensual pleasures? Can you
keep them so long as you want ? A thing which you can not sustain even for a
fraction of a second, which is clearly momentary, which you can not keep
continuously at all, where is the Q of renunciation of that? When You are not
holding the same, how can you renounce the same ? When you do not have any
control , where is Q of keeping the same or not keeping the same? On the top of
it, that thing is already renouncing you, ceaselessly and
continuously...already...that thing ( sensual pleasures) has begun disconnecting
from you from the very moment of connection...and you Dear Questioner are
considering that to be "price asked for"? How can you presume such a thing can
command even a negligible value? Where is price of that thing which does not
remain constant even for a fraction of a second ? Where is the Q of any price
commanded by that thing which necessarily perishes? THINK.....!!! Where is the
Q of your keeping or renouncing, when the other side is continuously renouncing
you? When you can not keep, where is ability or discretion or option in you to
renounce at all? Without your doing anything also, it is renouncing you
continuously, and you Dear Questioner are not only presuming it to permanent,
but are also putting price tag over the same ? Is not it funny? We think we are
living, but actually we are dying with every passing second !!!! Any doubt on
this ? Where is then merit of any price of those momentary sensual pleasures?
They are worthless ....absolutely worthless ...even pea nuts are more valuable
than them !!!!

Hence sensual pleasures command or deserve no price actually, you are merely
wrongly presuming that they have a price ( which is being asked to be renounced
by God Realisation path)! Renunciation of them gets you in return that which is
price less...so big a reward that you just can not put a price tag. every price
will be miniscule , too low and too petty.

Once sensual pleasures have no price of their own, once they are clearly
worthless, where is the very substance in the Q ? Do you get me, Sir ?

Actually, this very Q is based on faulty presumption that sensual pleasures
command a price and thus erroneously compares the loss of this benefit in
comparison to rewards entailed in God Realisation !!! Actually one is worthless
and other is priceless.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram
I see Nothing to worry.A devotee neither be sad nor makes other sad.There is
nothing Problem to teach and understand Scripture Knowledge.A person who adore
it He would Pick up it easily and a person who does not adore he will be out of
its advantage.We can easily find out the person whether he really want to know
or he is exercising discussion.A person who exercise the Spritual knowledge
there is only bliss for him and if he meets with same person it multiplies.It is
Science and the Science Never Fails.But it is rare to get such a ocassion or
union.I do not see any problems to proceed such a discussion group if we get
real participient If / Whether(Though) They are few or Rare.there is not problem
but bliss only !Siyabar Ram chandraji ki Jai ! Jai !! Jai !!!

Basu Dev

--------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

I liked these Qs really and also the aggression associated with them. I seek
permission to reply these Qs one by one . This posting addresses Q no 1 as to
the conflict between sense pleasures and God Realisation.

Why should these two should be in conflict ? JUST AS: Two totally opposite
things naturally remain in conflict ...like light and darkness, truth and false,
good and bad etc SIMILARLY: God Realisation and Sense pleasures are naturally in
conflict with each other being totally opposite to each other. .

Why we can not have both? Answer is JUST AS : Light and darkness can not remain
together , can not co-exist at the same time, one's presence necessarily means
other's absence SIMILARLY: God Realisation and sense pleasures can not remain
together.

How are they different? Why you should opt for God Realisation as against
sensual pleasures? They are different vis a vis what ?

They are different vis a vis you, me and every human being as well as vis a vis
God.

They are different in every conceivable attribute, way, character , type and
property. While God and Your SELF ( we) are permanent, these are temporary.
While God and Self ( we) are never changing, they are ever changing. While God
and Self ( we) are imperishable, these are perishable. While we are ever
blissful, these pleasures are ever sorrowful. There is no shadow even of sorrow
in our basic form....it is pure bliss, unadulterated bliss. On the other hand,
there is no pleasure in these indulgences of senses, there is only sorrow,
nothing else except sorrow....pure, unadulterated, only sorrow. While we are
permanent, these are temporary. While we are SAT , these are ASAT . While we are
sentient, these are inert. While we are immortal, they are mortal. While we are
totally faultless, these are totally faulty. While we are ever present , they
are never present. While we are fixed, they are moving. While we are perfect,
these are imperfect ! We are REAL, they are UNREAL. We are VIVEKA, these are
intellect.

Why one should opt for God Realisation ? JUST AS: A prisoner always wants to get
free. A person in debt always wants to be debt free. A poor always wants to get
rich. A sorrowful man always wants to be happy . A traveller always wants home.
SIMILARLY: We always want to be immortal but we see ourselves as mortals. We
always want to be all knowing, but we always find ourselves to be less knowing
ones. We want to be ever blissful but we find ourselves ever sorrowful. We
always want to be ever happy. We always want to be peaceful. We always want to
be perfect. We do not want to err. We do not want sorrows. We don't want to die.
But we are not what we want to. We need that. We are seeking that. We are dying
to get that, but have not yet got. Hence we are actually not peaceful and happy.

But why should opt for God Realisation? So that we become immortals, ever
blissful and all knowing. That can come to us by God Realisation only and never
by indulging in sense gratification.

JUST AS: You can't get richness while you are in company of poors. You can't
become happy by associating with sorrowful or out of those who are sorrowful by
their very form. You can't find permanent from temporary. You can not find love
from strangers. You can not find light while you are in dark. You can not get
knowledge, when you are ignorant. How can permanent element derive solace or
satisfaction out temporary element ? Can never changing remain happy in company
with ever changing ? SIMILARLY: You can not be happy by associating with
sorrowful sensual pleasures and in the company of DUKHALAYAM, this world. You
can not be peaceful by associating with that which is ever turbulent.

That is the advantage !!! That is the benefit !!!! Do you get me, Dear ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------------------

1. Attraction to Sense pleasure makes the ego, mind, thoughts, actions to
busy with objects with pleasure and trying to get satisfaction of desires
for sensual pleasue. This business all the more increases as desires are
insatiable and often there are failures to get desired objects or their
pusuit is associated with disappointment and dissatisfaction. Thus there is
no time left for God realisation which requires much greater, continuous and
more concentrated efforts. On the other hand as a person pursues the path of
God realisation, shedding all desires of sensual pleasures along the way,
one still gets to use objects of pleasure but is not attracted by the
objects of pleasures nor attached to them. This therefore does not produce
any disappoitment or dissatisfaction or pain. Objects of sensual pleasure
then provides sublime pleasures and no pain. Yes once God is realised,
sensual pleasure from objects get replaced by sublime, divine pleasure from
the same objects without any associted sensual pain. Thus, the path of God
realisation is better..
2. God Realisation enables one to see the entire life process in a totally
different perspective that rids the mind and thoughts of any sense of hate,
jealousy, superiority/ inferiority, anger, disappointment, dissatisfaction,
depression, loss, sorrow, sadness of worries. All actions and thoughts
become completely pleasurable then as they become unattached to the
consequences. Who would not like to have such benefits.
3. Because of what has been stated in 3, God Realisation involes mere
sacrifice of sensual pleasures but rewards in the form of unstained,
ceaseless happiness, peace and harmony. The costs are huge but relative to
the benefits the costs are negligible. Only fools and the lazy will not lke
to get such a great reward.
4. There is no 4 the question.
5. Existence of any thing in this Universe and the Universe itself is
merely a matter of imagination as perceived by the senses. In that sense God
as any other concept or idea is immagination of the Man. Since the concept
of God is all pervasive and enveloping, all proofs that any matter, and
force, any space, any energy, any form, any idea exists - are all evidence
that God exists. Nothing can come into existence out of nothing. There must
be an orginal source material for everything. That ultimate, original source
if everything in the Unioiverse including the entire Universe is called God.
If you can prove that any thing in the Universe and the entire Universe
exists, you automatically prove that the Ultimate source of all, God,
exists. It is unscientific to believe that the Universe does not have a
cause in the sense of Ultimate source.
6. Proof here is one of examples. There are millions of examples of people
who have treaded this path till their death. And, many who did not slip from
the path at all. But they are not going to come to you to prove that they
have succeeded and benefited. Yes, only a few have succeeded completely but
even those who have progressed substantially along the path have been
benefited Read the history of Indian Sadhakas, Guatam Buddha and Jesus
Christ for the proof. You cannot have live video telecast of their lives.
7. Yes, they benefited billions of people over the milleniums. Their lives
and stories still motivate an overwhelmingly large part of human population.
They have brought solace to people in billions of numbers. Those who have
not succesfully completed journey along the alternatve paths of God
Realisation or travelled the paths to a considerable extent, sacrificing
most sensual desires and attachment, by contrast have contributed very
little to the human civilisation. All most all scietists and technologists
who contributed to the society and the march of human civilisation treaded
the path of seeking the various aspects of the Truth about the way the
Universe works and discovered methods to use that knowledge to uplift human
kind. It is the quest of knowing the Universe if various ways and in
different aspects that are part of the journeys to God Realisation.

The questions you have raised are the reflection of your own attempt to seek
God/ the Ultimate Truth about the Universe. Continue this journey: you will
start developing dis-taste for most sensual desires automatically over time.

Basudeb Sen

----------------------------------------------------------

We confuse happiness with pleasure. We live our lives moving from satisfying one
pleasure to satisfying another pleasure. You will not find happiness in a
pleasure prison. Pleasure is short-lived and temporary. Happiness is sustainable
for your lifetime Pleasure is an event -- a moment in time. You can't find
happiness through seeking only pleasure.

Pleasure can be seductive and addictive. Our pleasure-seeking obsession is
destroying our mental, physical, and spiritual well-being. Searching for
pleasure in smoking, drinking, video games, or watching television wastes our
fragile short lives, not to mention exposing us to the host of diseases that are
directly related to our pleasurable lifestyle.

Choice is ours.... Understand, Experiment and experience...

Sushil Jain

--------------------------------------------------------

>> (7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human
civilisation?

God realized person are kind, loving, caring and respectful towards all. This is
beautifully stated by Narsimha Mehta - vaishnava jana to tene kahiye pida parai
jan hai re". God realized person is that who knows the pain of others. Such
people serve others and help others to be happy.

It does not matter whether they are successful. Our sentiment and intention is
more important. Small contribution matters. If we all can be loving and caring,
then our small contribution will be great. One very good example which comes to
my mind immediately is Mahatma Gandhi. He led his life based on "vaishnava jana"
song of Narsimha Mehta.

On the side note, being loving, kind, truthful, respectful and caring is
pre-requisite of being God realized. If someone does not have these qualities,
then they are not God realized and there is not much use to talk about
controlling senses. Gita is written for those who are loving, kind, truthful,
respectful and caring and one should always be endeavoring to develop these
qualities while applying other principles of Gita.

Regards,
Murari Das

---------------------------------------------------------

Source of our Desires are:

1. Pre-conditioning (Manyata)
2. Sensations(Samvedna)
3. Natural Acceptance (a gift of nature to all of us)

Today we largely operate on the basis of

1. Pre-conditioning(Manyatas)
2. Sensations from the Body

This is the cause for our conflicts and contradictions.

Basic human aspiration is for continuous happiness. Preconditioning and
sensations unable to provide this. Instead, what we get is short time pleasure/
excitement followed by periods of insecurity, fear, unhappiness, addictions,
etc.

If we operate as per our Natural Acceptance, it will create harmony at all
levels. We need to start referring to our Natural Acceptance, in order to be in
peace, harmony, joy...continually.. This is called God realization or
Self-Realization...

Choice is ours.... one can experiment with both and understand.... A happy and
joyful person creates magic everywhere.... Many people are doing that...that is
why the world is so beautiful...
Join the happiness club...

Sushil Jain

------------------------------------------------------

If you find the society around you in total decay, you have to analyse as to what went
wrong. If people run after renunciation no matter what ever spiritual benefits it may bring,
one thing is pretty sure - it ruins the economy of the nation. Once economy is ruined,
state machinery, political institutions, knowledge, dharma, and social contract decays.
You see decay around you due to this. Society is thrown into slavery, slaughter of
innocent, rape of women, and dire poverty. This is what you will find in the history of India.

On the other hand you cannot show any thing positive resulting from renunciation and
all the talk about spiritual progress and god realisation. It is heaven like that of drug
addicts. Only people indulging in intoxication of drugs find heaven in their miserable
living. God realisation should be treated on the same level and should be discarded.

If any thing, humans should strive for next step of evolution. You must be aware
chimpanzees have 98% similarity with human DNA. So just 2% difference make the
difference between Chimpanzees and human beings. Just imagine what will be the
difference in present day human beings and if some race makes just 2% progress over
them. We must not waste our time in god realization, renunciation of pleasures etc.
which have shown disastrous results if only if we have vision to accept the reality.

Unfortunately, people who have some intellectual background are busy misguiding
the society totally disregarding the actual results which we can see all around us.
They are wasting time in repeating the same conventional wisdom instead of contributing
something fresh and innovative in the light of scientific developments. That is the
tragedy of this society.

Sanjeev
--------------------------------------------------

Sadhak asked :
(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in conflict ? Answer :
sense pleasures and god realisation aren't in conflict [Vasudev: Sarvam].
Attachment to sense pleasures is hindering Realisation.
What relation it has with realisation? Answer :What kind of relation do you want
to know?
Why we cannot have both? Answer : Because riding on two boats simultaneously,
results in utter failure (none is achieved).
(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god? Answer : No benefits in terms
of worldly assets. Realisation itself is the Grace.
(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort? Answer : No words can describe the worth of
Realisation. Experience (if God Graces you with) it.
(5) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination?
Answer : Creation can't know the creator. Better you accept God IS.
(6) If there is no evidence what proof we have that going on this path will give
you any desired results or do we realise at the end of journey that we have
wasted all our life? Answer : Realisation is not the desired result [i.e. result
of any desires]. Realisation is Gods Grace ONLY.
(7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human civilisation?
Answer : Their contribution can't be measured by any senses, including mind.
Have they enriched any facet of human life? Answer : Before answering, tell if
you really know one (who is realised)? Just be with the realised for a moment
only, you won't be able to separate yourself from him/her.
Why should they be considered ideal? Answer : Because none other is equivalent
to them.
All these answers are already within you, but your mind is insisting on getting
different answers from without.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

------------------------------------------

1. we can not do two things at a time, god has made our brain to
concentrate on one thing at a time, or one life one mission..if we
want a life of sense enjoyments we have to end with that..if we want
god realisation day and night we have to crave for his benediction
forgetting food, clothing, shelter, when great saints sat in penance
they forgot everything all round their body, snake borough, ant
borough, even small plants grew on their body but they were deeply
towards god hood.
2.God intoxication has to be experienced not explained.
3.yes when sri ramakrishna 1836-1886 was married to a five year old
girl sharadadevi and when she came to age and came to him he asks do
you want children from me or the whole world will call you by you
being a sanyasini, she said yeas they never had physical relation, sri
ramakrishna almost everyday in smadhi and at time three days continue
and mother would be afraid that he is dead but when disciples uttered
Naryana loudly in his ears he came to real state
4. no read bharateeya vidya bhavan book how god came in to my life
5. just be doing mundane things of getting up brushing, toilet,
bathing, dressing, eating, working 9 to 5 sundays sleeping, then one
day retiring, suffering from disease and dying...we have to serve this
world that is one form of worship and god realisation
6. they have contributed that spiritual and moral education will only
give everlasting peace...you may have all the riches of the world but
you dont have contentment what is the use this comes from godly
thoughts

Swami Krishnananda

-------------------------------------------

Fundamental question is framed within you, arises within you-when you are stuck
up and are not able to cover up or find a logical, rational, satisfactory
explanation in respect of ‘what is happening’ or ‘what is troubling
you’.
Things are there as they are’, ‘happenings are there as they are’ (liked
or disliked)-when the element clamouring ‘why they are so’ is not
there-oneness may touch you. Now any action is relaxed and creative.
God is essentially used as an explanation, a device to cover up pain and
uncertainty. If the comfort of this explanation is not there, see what you find
out?
What is being conveyed is that if you just do not depend upon what is referred
as God, you are one with yourself, one with pain and uncertainty you are facing.
Here you have a brush with Truth, the Original energy.
You may authentically know ‘what God means’.
You may see Fundamental Expressions on the web.

Regarding sense pleasures-Energy is dissipated when you escape the uneasiness
generated on facing contradictions, negativity, uncertainty, confusion by ideas,
explanations, complaining, blaming, feeling guilty, future will be alright, by
addiction to sense pleasures. When this escape is just noticed, energy begins to
rise. One is one with oneself. One with the Original.
Y V Chawla

-----------------------------------------------------\

Dear Sadaks,
We are not restricted by pleasures and desires. But there is law on this. You
love your wife NOT next door wife. Love thy neighbour as thyself Do not cast
eyes on neighbours wife, are in bible and in our scripts with detail. Then
pleasures are resricted on certain days and NOT in daylight. That only for
health benefits of humans. DONT worry GOD exists or NOT. Are you pure in your
thoughts?
B.S.

-----------------------------------------------------

Pranam
The questions, and the responses are so enlightening.
Seeking God is growth. It is focused on and use of/living strengths each
individual is gifted with. Pursuing pleasures is bringing down our strengths we
are gifted with there by getting into regression and not living life completely
Humbly
Veena

------------------------------------------------

Dear Sanjeev,

after reading the discussion and your questions, i come to conclude that your
basic query is, "Whether God is there and real and not an imagination? rest
other questions are just the ramifications of this core doubt.

My Answer: GOD IS REAL AND NOT THE IMAGINATION

and i have several proofs to conclude so which include:

1. Scientific clues

2. Observations/experiences of my forefathers, and other reliable sources which
can never be wrong/fake.

There are many other proofs but they are not sufficient to your mind except for
the scientific proofs. therefore i am giving links of some scientific reports,
kindly go through them yourself, and decide whatever you want to decide for
yourself -

1. the mind /consciousness persists even after death and is independent from the
material brain.

2. a recent scientific study exploring rebirth/ and alternatively proving the existence of soul. the link is given below:

3. Another case of reincarnation which became famous throughout India, and Gandhi ji also witnessed that case.

4. The life did not originate by its own as is taught in the 10+2 science
classes. here are the latest scientific insights in this case.

5. The archeological data is not honest enough and the conclusion that human beings are recently evolved is FALSE. here is the link for the scientific explorations of decades by an archeologist:

6. Scientific explanation by the quantum physics professor of a renowned American University that each and every particle of the universe is conscious and aware of itself.

If still you feel that the so called atheistic views about the existence are the
absolute truth, you are free to feel so, but reality is reality.

Other questions can be answered only if you analyze and truly accept the
existence of God.

warm regards

Dharmendra Sharma

======================================================

Namaste Dharmendraji,
We were unable to include all your links on Gita-Talk forum.

Ram Ram
------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sanjivaji,
<(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in
conflict ? What relation it has with realisation ? Why we cannot have both ?
(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god ?>

Sense pleasure is not the appropriate word, It should be sense need. This can go
hand in hand with god realisation. By realising god we get peace ofmind.
Hari Malla

-----------------------------------------------------

Dear Sanjeev,

I have read in detail Swami Ramsukhdasji's teachings on sense pleasure.
Sometimes, it can be confusing.

(1) Why sense pleasures and god realisation should be in conflict ? What
relation it has with realisation ? Why we cannot have both ?

Swami Ramsukhdasji emphasized on accepting reality as it is. If we can't see the
reality, it is OK. We can intellectually understand it and accept it.

He states that the interaction of sense with sense objects whether be
pleasurable or unpleasurable don't stay. The problem is that we consider them to
be permanent and try to hold on to them. We want the interaction of senses and
their objects to stay forever. These interactions leave us and we are always the
same even among-st all the changes. If you have vision that the interaction of
senses and their objects is temporary and you act with this knowledge of truth,
you are acting in accordance with the reality.

When Swamiji refers to the obstacle, he means that don't see your true nature as
product of body and senses. If you can't see, at least accept that you are
permanent and changeless. With that vision, be happy and equanimous. Don't let
these changes bother you.

Most people get attached to sense pleasures and give them so much importance.
They suffer if they can't get something. They become too much happy if they
attain something. They can even hurt others to satisfy their senses. Swamiji is
saying that this kind of attitude is in conflict with the truth as these people
are acting as if sense gratification will stay forever.

There is saying - "act as if you will die tomorrow". If you are confused about
what to do, then ask yourself what will you do if you will die tomorrow. If you
will die tomorrow, then you will choose most meaningful action for one remaining
day. Whatever you will do is most important! So. select that action. Swamiji is
using the similar logic.

We cannot have both because accepting permanence of sense pleasure and then,
trying to hold on to it is against its temporary nature.

(2) What benefit the person gets by realising god ?

I would rephrase. What benefit one gets by realizing the true reality and
realizing your true nature or identity? You have to ask yourself this question.
Nobody can answer that for you.

(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort ?

The reality is that you always give up sense pleasure. They never stay. You can
eat ice cream or any tasty sweet for only some time. After that, you will get
tired of it. You will want something new. So, just accept the truth that these
pleasure don't stay. That is it. You can renounce something if you have it.
Actually, no one can renounce sense pleasure. You just accept the reality that
these pleasure are not within you.

(5) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination ?

Lets not talk about this topic. Lets keep it to accepting true reality and
accepting one's own existence as something beyond body.

(7) What contribution people who realised god have given to human civilisation ?
Have they enriched any facet of human life ? Why should they be considered ideal
?

Bhagavatam (11/2/41) - "Ether, fire, air, water, earth, the sun and other
luminaries, all living beings, the directions, trees and other plants, the
rivers and oceans — all these are body of Hari (the Supreme God). One should bow
down to whatever exists in this world seeing them to be manifestation of Hari."

I also ask this question. My view is that God realized person is supposed to see
God in all. Such person is respectful, kind, loving and well-wisher of all. He
serves people around him as he sees them as manifestation of God. He does not
put down others or look down upon others. I think we need such people in the
world. Unfortunately, such people are difficult to find. Therefore, I try to
develop such attitude and help others to do so.

I have found that many times religion or God does more harm than good. Many
horrible acts are done in the name of religion or God. Caste system and attitude
towards women are few examples. But the true religion will bring kindness, love,
appreciation, servitude and happiness in our lives.

Regards,
Murari Das

--------------------------------------------

Dear ALL, Sanjeev in particular,

Namaskar!

The main obstacle to god realization is attraction to sense pleasures is not
wholly correct, since these very sense pleasures on correct & logical
understanding could be used properly to achieve God' Realization !! This would
be more clear when you read my full response to various questions Sanjeev has
put.

To my mind, the main obstacle to god's realization is One's own illusion-ed Ego
of Mind (the feeling of existence) as a separate identity!! The fact is that no
duality exists in Reality and appears only as our ignorance of fact that we are
considering the duality as Truth due to our continual living with the duality
You, me, public and God as separate identities. This duality has set in because
of our Mind's illusion sine the time immoral . There are infinite number of
minds which further have been developed into infinite separate physical as well
as metaphysical identities!!
So, in the background of above ABSOLUTE REALITY in view, here under are my
possible answers to Sanjeev's question (s):

(1) Why sense pleasures and god realization should be in conflict ?
Ans: They are not in conflict! God realization i.e., Stage of one's own Self
realized person becomes a subject and no longer remains an object while Sense
Pleasures have been before and after God realization as properties of Mind.
Realized person even after attainment of God hood continues be a separate
identity for other common persons but not for his own TRUE SELF.

(1 A) What relation it has with realization ?
Ans: SENSE PLEASURES are nothing but experimental tools which could be used as
means to understand the "TRUE NATURE OF ONE'S OWN SELF"[God's Realization]. The
relation between the two is so immense that one cannot exist without the other.
As said earlier, Realized Self is Subjectively imaginary Object, whose property
is Mind enjoying the Sense Pleasures. Now it is up to the striving person for
God's Realization to use Mind and Sense Pleasures as tool to understand the
Reality or, use Mind as tool for entertainment and remain in ignorance of
Duality! In the former case Sense Pleasures would become advantageous in God
realization while in latter case it would become hindrance!!

(1 B)Why we cannot have both ?
Ans: Definitely, you can have both at time but you have to remain aware of Non
Duality, The Absolute Reality. You may refer full Bagwad Gita and understand
what would the state of the person who is realized as well as enjoy Sense
pleasures. He is no other than Lord Krishna Himself!

(2) What benefit the person gets by realizing god ?
Ans: Benefit is: Nothing would sadden or please him!! Pleasure or sorry would
not touch the realized person!! He would be present every where, all powerful
and exist in whole of universe. The benefits are immense or better infinite, not
possible write all!!

(3) considering the price asked for it (renouncing the sense pleasures) is the
reward worth the effort ?
Ans: Rewards have been already mentioned in Answer no (2). I too had put same
question sometime back on this very forum! Learned person did mention their
views which were of finite nature only. But in due course, out of my own deep
thinking and understanding, I may tell you that God realization is not a
BANYAGIRI (Business) but is knowledge providing about who really you are!! You
would get a state of Bliss (Infinite Happiness, pleasure, comfort whose effect
would not diminish with the passage of time, the state is beyond expression and
even beyond feeling!!

(4) Is there any evidence for existence of god or it is just your imagination ?
Ans: Evidence as vivid as you exist and asking the child like question to grown
up Expert. It has been discussed some where else also that God exists as truly
as you and me exist!

(5) If there is no evidence what proof we have that going on this path will give
you
any desired results or do we realize at the end of journey that we have wasted
all our life ?
Ans: If above answers you have understood well, I do not think I should still
reply this question of yours. Well for your benefit, I would reply this as
well: Just try to Leave everything including Gods Realization business but try
to go deep inside your own self and search for a pin pointed place i.e., which
part of your body you (WHAT YOU CALL AS YOU exist. God's realization no way is
different than your own TRUE REALIZATION!

(6) What contribution people who realized god have given to human civilization ?
Have they enriched any facet of human life ? Why should they be considered ideal
?

Think of Sant Kabir and remember his well known saying:

LALEE MERE LALL KE JIT DEKHON TIT LAL,
LALAN DEKHAN MAIN GAIE MAIN BE HOGAYEE LAL!!

Realized persons take birth, live and act to teach masses through their
presence, words, speech and even actions!

I am
KKK
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

---------------------------------------------------------
Only mahatma, who has experience self fused with almighty can explain Sanjeev
thought processing -
i appreciate both. It gives me immense satisfaction, good hope onto my daily
struggle of mind and heart,
continue coming back to him and pray all the time to show me the right path
since I am a paapi, budhiheen,
agyaani - can't fathom his benevolent nature, power and omnipresence; including
my heart and soul.

- thank you both of you.
BALAGURU RAMANAN
----------------------------------------------

Questions worth debating........

Shrikant G(Jee)

-------------------------------------------

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