Tuesday, May 14, 2013

[gita-talk] Re: why non violence is not highlighted in our practice as is in Jainism?

 

I have no knowledge of bhagvat gita or any other scriptures, but on a rational
thinking I have some questions. I will address one at a time...
1. Sanatan dharm has love,friendship,compassion as their founder
principles. One who loves all can not be violent but definitely
he or she is non violent. Then why non violence or ahminsa not
highlighted in our practice as it is highlighted in Jainism?

I believe that we should behave in such a manner that Sanatan dharm is being
considered with respect & can not be taken as granted. Our efforts will have
long lasting effects for generations to come.
Jai Shree krishna,
Kaushik desai.

------------------------------------------------

Wonderful question indeed. (removed few sentences by moderator)

This body is not
yours. It is given by Him. Any living entity should practice ahimsa in
deeds,words and thoughts.
One should not confuse Krishna's instructions to Arjuna with this. Wiping out
the demons is the duty of a Kshatriya. If our Indian Army does not protect us
by bombing the terrorists at the borders, we will not be discussing this topic
at all. And THAT ACT IS NOT VIOLENCE. THAT IS DUTY.
All the saints have changed the sinners through non-violence, just by their
kataksham. Still sinners do exist. Whenever they trouble the devotees, the
Lord cannot keep quiet- If He really loves the saints. Our mother will never
keep quiet if we beat the other children. She is bound to slap us, in order to
reform us. If any religion calls this a VIOLENCE, just as the stupid westerners
do, then it is not a religion at all. If a mother does not have a right to beat
her child in order to reform the child, then who else has? - The stupid
governments or the so called religious saints? By killing the Kouravas, The
Lord actually prevented them from committing further sins. This is also the act
of DAYAA. Only intelligent people can understand that whatever THE SUPREME LORD
SRIMAN NARAYANA ( Please do not consider Him as partial expansion, or one with x
no. of kalas etc. He is the WHOLE AND SUPREME.)does, He does only out of
COMPASSION to the living entity.
mukunda daasa.

-----------------------------------------------------

The purpose of questioner is to know about non-violence practice in Hinduism. This question should not be used to criticize Jain religion. This question should not be used as the discussion of practice in Jainism. I am sure that most of us do not have knowledge of Jain religion. If Jain religion is discussed, then we should allow someone Jain saint to explain it to us.

The comments of Mukunda Dasa should be unacceptable and they should not pass moderator guidelines. Lets us be clear not to criticize Jain religion or their practices.

Regards,
Murari Das

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Mukunda Daasa

It was interesting reading

REMOVED QUOTATION.....

Kindly know more about what Jainism/ahimsa is all about, for your own sake/peace/happiness.. One has to see beyond rituals, stories, living styles associated with all religions, to know what is happening where...

God bless u...

Sushil Jain

--------------------------------------------------------

Submission to Swami Krishnanandjee!
Killing is not hinsa when done to aatataayee [manusmruti 8 : 350-351] see footnote SS page 1127.
Humbly,
Saadhaka

----------------------------------------------------------

Sanatan Dharma is not a religious scripture. It reflects the ancient human
efforts in quest of the ultimate knowledge of how he universe works and the
various ways human beings conduct their lives. It emphasise that both
non-voilence and violence co-exist in each person, the society and the
Universe. It does not preach any particular set of rules or norms. It simply
observes that each human being act, think and behave due the forces of
illusion that makes an individual believe that he/ she acts and thinks on
its own when the Truth is that each individual is driven by the interaction
of gunnas and emerging envionment impulses faced. This points to
inevitabilty of both violence and non-violence. It suggests that a person
who really believes in not commiting any violence against any one may
himself/ herself be a victim of violence by others But if he is in the path
of using his/ her powers only for the benefit of others, realising the Truth
of Basudebam Sarvam and experiencing and expressing this knowledge in life,
he/ she would be never be perturbed by any thing including violenc or
non-violence. He/ she stands liberated from the bonds of all happenings in
the life but a mere silent witness to all happenings. He/she would continue
to lead his/ her life in a manner that causes no harm, but benefits to
anyne else, treating every other person as part of himself/ herself ,
steadfast in equnimity because he/ she would have no desire, no ego, no
attachment and yet full of love to others . Sanatana dharma is not a
medicine or cure for violence. or an institution to eliminate violence: it
is merely a view that both violence and non-violence do not really matter
to those who have the Ultimate Knowledge and merged in that Knowledge. It is
by implication of this Sanatana priciple explaining the Universe that the
religions were born to do something (adopt certain rituals, practices, food
habits, thinking habits, etc) that would help reduce the incidence of
violence among men and women. Much later modern governments also came
intoexistence to elininate all violence through laws, policing, courts,
public spending, development efforts of various types. But both religions
and governments have failed to beat the Santana Dharma principle of
inevitability of violence. Violence is inside each person - Sanathana dharma
had therefore suggested that one looks inside to eradicate violence seeds
and not to worry about violence outside.
Basudeb Sen

-------------------------------------------------------

Dharmo eva Hato Hanti Dharmo Raxshati Raxshata:
Tasmaad Dahrmao na hantavyo maa no Dharmo hato Vadheet ||

1. Implying '*dharma* harms only when harmed (killed), protects only when protected / therefore, let *dharma *not be harmed, let our harmed *dharma*, not harm us.

The foundation is Dharma and not non-violence. Non-Violenec should be norm as it supports Saamajic Dharma. But when injustice gets perpetrated and there is no non-violent means to get justice the violence is necessary.
Ravindra Koul

----------------------------------------------------------

Respected Sadhaks,

Hare Krishna!

Gita clearly states that the purpose of human birth is to pursue spiritualism.
If such practice is followed by everyone you can hardly see any violence. Such
practice will make everyone to develop "servam vasudevam" attitude. That
development will make people to respect each other and also other living thing
and non-living things. These developments will come of their own once people
start developing the servam vasudevam attitude.

with namaskaram
s.vaidyanathan

-----------------------------------------------------

yes we are not praccticing non violence we kill mosquitos, house fly,
cockroaches, rats, ants, some insects which trouble us in night and
not allow us to sleep, bed bugs etc,it requires tremendous patience,
tapasya which jains do that is why they wear a mask covering their
nose and mouth will not eat after sun set this has to be practiced
right from childhood
god bless you
swamiji SWAMI KRISHNANANDA

---------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Is it a question of highlighting non violence or originating principle of non
violence? Jainism is a branch of Sanatan Dharma only. Every religion of the
world is a branch of Eternal Sanatan Dharma only. Non violence is fundamental
essence of Sanatan Dharma. No other religion in the world teaches you so
categorically and clearly the importance of non violence as does Sanatan Dharma.
Read Gita....there you will find that for ALL yogis, be Karma Yogi, Jnana Yogi
or Bhakti Yogi, the ESSENTIAL pre-requisite and qualification is SARVA BHOOT
HITE RATAA ( getting indulged continuously for welfare of all creatures). You
can not be SARVA BHOOT HITE RATAA, unless you are indulging in Non Violence.
Hence the roots of non violence actually is in Sanatan Dharma only. Sanatan
Dharma is the mother of all religions. In Jainism, you find non violence at the
focus, because they have concentrated on one trait meticulously. Nothing wrong
in that. If you focus on any one thing of Sanatan Dharma , you get
accomplishment ....such is Sanatan Dharma ....!!!!

By the way, there are 81 types of non violence and violence. What appears on
surface is hardly 9 types or 18 types. You are seeing non violence highlighted
in Jainism accordingly. Sanatan Dharma teaches you principles of non violence
by 81ways.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------

Till we do not have love for all (including those who aren't Sanatan Dharmik),
friendship for all (including those who aren't our friends as yet) and
compassion for all (including those who aren't considered worthy of compassion),
we aren't Sanatan Dharmik. Sanatan Dharm never gets diminished, number of
Sanatan Dharmiks decreases or increases as per Gods Will (eeshvarakee ichchhaa
binaa pattaa tak naheen hilataa).
Humbly,
Saadhaka

----------------------------------------------

Personal violence is no where justified by any religion or country.
Now as we live in groups, say, as a country-to protect the group, violent means
are used.
But this is a way of living.
To understand the Truth, the Truth of Existence-you have to come to yourself
instead of embroiling yourself in
whether 'what others are doing is right or wrong'.
I would repeat one of my previous replies-
'Negativites like terrorism, corruption, socio-economic inequities and so on.'
The fact is that these negativities are painful to you.
Can you bear this pain without resorting to any complaining, blaming, feeling
guilty or introducing the idea of God, non-doership or any other theory?
One wants to run away, escape the pain of negativities . Or the negativities do
not disturb one.
One does not see the 'pain' as it is.
This seeing 'as it is' concentrates the energy.
You get to know the Truth, the Truth of Existence.
Negati vities can not be wished away, one has to bear their friction, pain.
There is no escape.
Now your action in ANY direction is creative.
Y V Chawla

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Harry Desai,

When I was immature, I would consider those who eat onion/ garlic as sinful
people. Also, I would consider meat eaters as sinful.

When I looked deeper, I found that many of these people are very kind, loving,
peaceful, charitable, caring and truthful. I learnt to appreciate them. On the
contrary, I found vegetarian people (even those who don't eat onion / garlics)
as dishonest, corrupt, uncaring, selfish.

There is another kind of violence which is to the environment. Actually,
destroying environment will hurt all people including human and animals. Yes,
not eating meat and helping environment are great qualities.

But we should be clear that primary qualities to develop and judge are
truthfulness, kindness, charitableness, lovingness, non-stealing etc. They start
with family and extend to nation, world, animals and all living beings. What is
the use of vegetarianism for a rapist?

It is your choice which qualities you give more importance. I hope you are kind,
loving, charitable, helping and giving towards people around you including poor
and helpless people in India. I am very happy that you feel the pain of animals
like a devotee is supposed to do (pida parai jan he re - vaishnava or sadhak is
that who knows the pain of others).

I wish all the people in world can become vegetarian and show compassion to all
living entities - humans, animals and plants. Me and my kids pray to Lord Ram
about it everyday. My daughter feels very bad and helpless as people around her
eat meat. She prays for protection of animals every day. Unfortunately, this
world is not perfect and even meat-eaters are increasing in India. We need to
set the example - society which is kind and loving to all beings.

Lets do it by becoming kind, loving, giving, charitable, honest and truthful.
Each of our contribution will matter. I am sure you already have these
qualities.

Regards,
Murari Das

------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Divine message from Mukund daas ! There is no point in meting out violence to one's own body to begin with as well as to end with. This body is also OTHER just as others are also OTHER. It is your duty to deal with your body as you deal with other bodies. How can one set example of non violence by being violent to your own body?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------------
Dear Murari Das,

You need to understand the concept of in-group & out-groups. In-group starts with family. In group starts with family, extended family, social group, religious group, linguistic group, nationality. humanity and so on. But enlightened people should understand that this is Maya.

Now to take on your concept of "primary qualities to develop and judge are truthfulness, kindness, charitableness, lovingness, non-stealing etc" should be put above all. Do you know that guards at Nazi concentration camps & death camp were nice to each other too and were, loving, caring to their family and honest and not stealing from state and so on. Now based strictly on that criteria would you consider them

superior to corrupt a official in India, who may be abusing his wife, taking bribes?

So it is wrong to judge somebody only on a selected criteria and ignoring others. Unlike most Indians I have lived most of my life in West. I was vegetarian in my child hood but started eating meat when I moved to west. But I switched back to vegetarianism after I opened my eyes to reality. There was one episode in Dr. Suzuki’s, an eminent scientist, series Planet for taking, which vividly described the conditions in Animal Farms. It seems even worse than concentration camps.

Bottom line for goodness in world is not how one treats one’s desirable, but how one treats his most undesirable, the out-group.

Now the horrors of concentration camps, extermination camps etc. could not be stopped without total destruction of Hitler & Nazi state. similarly the present oppression and suffering of bulk of creatures and also bulk of humanity will not stop until destruction of present world, it is called END TIME in Bible or KAYAMAT in Islam and PRALAYA in Hinduism. Having said that I should say present day world survives because of past good deeds of some people, who are enjoying wealth, but when summation of bad Karma will equal summation of past good Karma by people who are benefiting in this world, it will collapse.

India offers an interesting case. When it won Independence from Britain using non-violence, it was hope for the whole mankind. But Gandhi, by his MOHA selected Nehru, a person from traditional meat eating Brahmin caste, and basically anti-Hindu/ Buddhist in his outlook, and doomed both India and mankind., Instead of becoming a nation taking western technology and ideas to fix it’s own problems and promoting ideas like Non-violence, vegetarianism, raising consciousness regarding non-human creature in the world, India simply became a third rate copy of Western and Communist ideas, while still retaining it’s hellish filth.

In spiritual terms a people moving away from sins, like many Westerners becoming Vegetarians and opposing cruelty to animals, are on the right track and ready for uplift. People moving toward sins, like Secularist Hindus of India who for their support for minority community’s opposition to cow slaughter ban which is starting point in terms of respecting rights of all creatures for their life and freedom from torture, is ready for downhill abyss.

So right approach for most people is to be nice to everybody, help less fortunate, stop eating meat, fish and other animal products in general. They should also stop giving donations to many research such as Cancer treatment which use animals.

 

Harry Desai

----------------------------------------------------------

I am one of those 3000 members of this group who has never written on this
forum. I do not feel myself qualified to render advice to this elite group. On
occasions I feel like scanning the responses due to an urge to spend time on
other mundane tasks. I always make it a point to not skip Vyasji's posts. I have
found his posts very informative and objective. I agree that a sadhak should be
sensitive to all the issues surrounding her environment in this material world.
He should also know that Gita teaches us to be nirmamo and nirahankar. Dwarka.

---------------------------------------------------

Mr. Murari Das,

It appears that you have not heard or visited animal Farms in US to see the
first hand " high moral values exhibited by people in US".

Those Animal farms are the real HELL on earth. Americans by indirectly
supporting those animal farms are also guilty of suffering that is brought upon
Cows, Pigs, Chickens etc. They should be prepared to face the music for their
bad Karma of supporting this horror, like Raksha people of Ramayana had to.

Regards,
Harry Desai

-----------------------------------------------------

Jai Shree Krishana.

As far as I understand, In bhagwat Gita, why did Lord Krishna, when asked by
Arjun, on battle ground that "On other side, all are my relatives and Humans
only" And Lord Krishna reply.." Its to protect Dharma" Same was done when
Gauitam Buddha started to spread his thoughts, he did taught his people martial
art, as they were passing from jungle and all rough area. In bottom line he
taught them martial art to protect them selves and spread his Dharma.

It is upto individual to be violent or non violent. Dharma is to support you.
Let us stop comparing one religion with other.

Nikhil Parekh.
------------------------------------------------

Personal violence is no where justified by any religion or country.
Now as we live in groups, say, as a country-to protect the group, violent means
are used.
But this is a way of living.
To understand the Truth, the Truth of Existence-you have to come to yourself
instead of embroiling yourself in
whether 'what others are doing is right or wrong'.
I would repeat one of my previous replies-
'Negativites like terrorism, corruption, socio-economic inequities and so on.'
The fact is that these negativities are painful to you.
Can you bear this pain without resorting to any complaining, blaming, feeling
guilty or introducing the idea of God, non-doership or any other theory?
One wants to run away, escape the pain of negativities . Or the negativities do
not disturb one.
One does not see the 'pain' as it is.
This seeing 'as it is' concentrates the energy.
You get to know the Truth, the Truth of Existence.
Negativities can not b e wished away, one has to bear their friction, pain.
There is no escape.
Now your action in ANY direction is creative.
Y V Chawla

--------------------------------------------------------

Non-violence or ahimsa is one of the major principle of Hinduism. If somebody
says that it is not, then they are not representing Hinduism properly.

Non-violence means not hurting others. One is supposed to not hurt others and
also, one is supposed to love others.

par-pida na adhmai -- Tulsidasji says that hurting others is the worst sin.

Bhagavatam 10/2/22 - A person who is very cruel is regarded as dead even while
living, for while he is living or after his death, everyone condemns him. And
after the death of a person in the bodily concept of life, he is undoubtedly
transferred to the hell known as Andhatama.

Bhagavatam 12/2/41 - What can a person who injures other living beings for the
sake of his body know about his own self-interest, since his activities are
simply leading him to hell?

Gita 16/19 and 16/20 state that cruel person who hurt others (kruran) and who
are envious of others (dvistan) are perpetually cast into material existence.

Gita 13/8 to 13/12 describes values which lead to knowledge (truth). Ahimsa is
described as third value. Anything else is said to be ignorance.

You question is very similar to my question about the characteristics of
advanced devotee or saint. Current practitioners of sanatana dharma consider
people as saints even if those people hurt and exploit the people around them
or do not help others. These so called saints get respect and money and they
don't use their power to help others. Actually, such people are great danger to
religion and people are losing interest in dharma when they see such people
being considered as upholder of dharma. These people externally show that they
are disconnected from the world and exhibit the qualities of renunciation. It is
so easy to fake renunciation. Behind the scenes, these pretender saints engage
in abusive activities.

I was talking with my friend about serving people around us. He mentioned that
he wants to love God and he will automatically serve people when he will attain
love of God. Basically, he wants to love God but he does not want to serve,
love, respect and care about people around him. That is not possible because God
is in everyone. You can't love God unless you love people in whom He resides.
Swami Vivekananda understood the problem of Hindus and therefore, emphasized
following - "Where can we go to find God if we cannot see Him in our own hearts
and in every living being."

#1 - One should love, respect, care, serve and protect people around oneself.
#2 - One should not hurt others or cause them suffering.

These above two rules are important part of sanatana dharma. These are very
basic and Gita does not emphasize them very much because Arjuna already knew
this. Therefore, Krishna is talking about higher knowledge of soul. But these
values are basic pre-requisites. In any circumstance, one cannot violate these
principles of love, kindness, respect , servitude and non-injury.

Upholders of sanatana dharma need to exhibit these qualities. They need to
establish these basic values again in India and emphasize them and guide people
to lead life of love and respect.

You are recognizing problem with Hindus in India. Because of the lack of these
values, corruption, dishonesty, abusiveness, exploitation, discrimination and
casteism is prevalent in India. People need to change. Gandhiji said - "Be the
change you want to be". You start with yourself and spread the message of love,
kindness and respect.

It is possible because I see very high moral values exhibited by people in US.
If people in US can do it, then India can also do it.

Regards,
Murari Das

----------------------------------------------------

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