Saturday, May 18, 2013

[gita-talk] Re: All That is Necessary for Evil to Triumph is for Good Men to Do Nothing INSIGHTS

 

"All That is Necessary for Evil to Triumph is for Good Men to Do Nothing." --
Attributed to Edmund Burke

It seems to me that this statement is basis for our actions - doing good for
others. Arjun had two options -

1) don't find and let evil triumph

2) fight and let dharma win.

Arjun wanted to choose easy way #1 but Krishna spoke Gita so that he can choose
#2. Gita teaches us how to act so that we don't let evil triumph.

I am sure that watching a woman being raped and doing nothing is wrong and
unacceptable. So, we can just sit idle and don't do nothing. We have to act and
help others (including us) to be happy, healthy, wise and remove their
suffering. I would be interested to know how Gita-talk members are apply
teachings of seva in their life and how they are encouraging others to do so.

Regards,
Murari Das

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Absolutely right. Burke did say that and he was quoting from Gita and
Mundakopanoishat. We lighten and cavil our wisdom that is our misfortune
Samudrala Krishna

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To help someone as the immediate moment demands is one thing.
All other untoward happening, loss, any difficult situation is psychological
discomfort to you.
Can one see that one is trying to escape the uneasiness of the situation by
ideas, explanations? As if the irritating situation should not be there, but it
is there like an insurmountable mountain before you. There is no way this
irritation can be undone. No explanation is able to assuage the discomfort, the
situation is giving you. Suddenly, the brain is charged. It is relieved at the
peak of this disturbance. It sees the emergence of action. Transformation
happens. It affects, transforms your whole world.
Y V Chawla

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Jai Hanuman

We are Sadhaks. Our primary and the only task is to remove evilness from our own self and that in itself is a big enough task ! It is not our duty to fight evil in others and to destroy others under the self presumption that they are evil. I agree with messages of Chawalaji, Humble Sadhak, Koul , Dr Rao and BS fully. In this regard , Swamiji has spoken and written extensively. There is a difference between evilness and injustice. Gita clearly specifies what are duties of a Saint, Sadhaks, Saadhya ( Bhagwan) and no where it is stated to be duty of Sadhak or Saint or human to destroy the sinner. It is actually job of God.

Here it is interesting to quote few Dicine remarks of Maharajji- Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj:

To a Q : If one sees evilness in others, what to do ? He said: Make an effort to show him a correct way, and if he does not accept, ignore him and consider his actions to be LEELA OF PRABHU ( Read it carefully and think...particularly the strivers of Vasudev Sarvam) !

To a Q: If it is a fault to see faults in others, then how without seeing fault in other a teacher shall improve student or a father shall impart truth to his son? Said Swamiji: To see fault in others with an intention to make that other faultless, is not fault. Fault is: To become happy seeing faults in others. A Guru or Father does not become happy seeing the faults of pupil or son, rather they become sad and want to see their pupil or son to be faultless !!!

It is DANGEROUS , however, to see faults in others. Very destructive and defeating this habit of seeing faults in others or dubbing others to be evil. Actually, there is neither evil nor good.,.all is LEELA of God. It is our own evilness only that gets reflected in others, just as, our own body gets reflected in a mirror. This world is a MIRROR only. AS YOU ARE, SO APPEARS THE WORLD TO YOU. Once a listener asked Swamiji : How is this world ? ( SANSAAR KAISA HAI?) Instantly came reply from Maharajji : As you are ( JAISE AAP HAIN ) !!!!

Actually this world is creation of Paramatma. You are witnessing a dream. JUST AS: In a dream your own mind only creates various scenes, people, places, talk, circumstances, situations, emotions, worries, tasks...SIMILARLY: It is your mind only which makes you see the world you are seeing. World has nothing to do with your observations, imaginations, perceptions about it. It is you and you alone who are seeing, imagining, hallucinating, perceiving, getting excited, observing, interpreting..,,etc. World is neither good nor bad.,.it is YOU who is good or bad !!! You and you only are good or bad .., world is not ! When world is not at all good or bad...where is the question of fighting?

Murari Das has spoken a lot about Vasudev Sarvam. He sees himself to be the striver with that goal. This Q also is from Murari Das only. My Q to him is:

With whom a Sadhak or Saint or a human being will fight ? Will Vasudev fight with Vasudev ? Where is Q of any one being an evil when all is Vasudev? When you are willing to worship even a CHANDAAL , when you see Vasudev in all.,.why you should resist a rape scene ? Now answer....!!!!

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Murari Das Ji and other Sadaaks,
Namaskar!
Other Sadaks have given the reasons why Arjuna did act this and not that way!
Some said even evil did not exist in Hindu Mythology! I am sure that your basic
question is still not fully answered! Let me give it a try as follows:

Lord Krishna has attributed 5 causes for the successful completion of any Action
(Karma) performed any living being including human beings:

PANCHAITANI MAHABHAO KARNANI NIBODMEY,
----- -------- SIDYAI SARV KARMANAM!

Those are; 1. The quality of Actor, 2. The quality of person for whom Action is
being done,3. the environment in which action is being done, 4. the instrument
with which action is being done and 5. fifth is the Dava desire! When all the
five causes are conducive, the action is successful otherwise, it would be
unsuccessful! The last one Dava desire can be attributed to Prarabhda which, in
turn depends on one's past Karmas!

Now, logically in the absence of the second to fifth cause knowledge, one is
left with only the quality of the Action Doer i.e. Karta. Meaning sure of one's
own quality, responsibility under a particular situation so he can use his
Purshartha, his Viveka and Bhudhi to decide either to perform a particular
action or not to perform! It would be easy for him to decide between these two
extremes by putting himself on others place and ask himself what he would have
expected other person to do for him. If answer comes as Yes then he should help
him and if answer comes as No then he should not help!

For example a lion is coming towards the region of your residence. You being a
Khaitri has duty to kill the Lion, otherwise, it would kill many others
including you. So your Vivek should tell you to you to kill it and that would be
your real Ahimsa for ALL, including the Lion as his days are over now!

Concluding, good actions (To be decided by keeping you in others place to decide
what is good and what is bad!!??)are always recommended to be performed as a
duty and also such actions makes you Purer and Purer! In this reference Lord
Krishna says:

PAVNANI MANEESHINAM !

Maay God bless you!

Kuldeep K. Kaul

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Hari Om

I do not consider anything or anyone to be evil. I read the messages of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and my understanding is that not doing bad/ not wishing bad/ not understanding others to be bad, not talking bad, and not writing bad...is DOING GOOD. I agree with many Sadhaks....there is no evil to fight. If somebody is raping some one in your presence, it is your duty to resist. Your eye is badly set on evil, which does not exist. How can in the world created by Lord, any one can be evil ? Fight not evil persons, fight the evil traits...which arise effortlessly in you when you connect with ASAT or get disconnected from SAT !!! Ensure those evil traits are not present in you. How to ensure? If you are able to see evilness in others, that is the surest indicator that evilness exists in you...most certain indicator. Argue on this...if you can. Our method of encouraging others to do SEVA is to set examples of Seva. We believe in improving ourselves, rather than taking a stick , running after and yelling...he is evil, fight with him....!!!!

As I understand, it s not your duty, as per Gita, to fight with evil. That is not job of Sadhaks or Saints at least. According to me, Sadhaks of Sanatan Dharma, would never think in terms of punishing the evil doer, they will always think in terms of compassion with reference to them. It is actually duty of Paramatma to destroy evil-doers. It is not Sadhak's duty to protect dharma, it is duty of Paramatma to protect dharma. Refer in this regard famous Gita verse...PARITRANAAY SADHUNAAM, VINAASHAAY CHA DUSHKRITAAM....! That means what ? That means to save good people and destroy evil people is the duty of Bhagwaan. As I understand, no saint or sadhak of Sanatan Dharma is to take a weapon on hand and run after evil doers. Can you find anywhere in Gita or Scriptures a reference of the duty of Sadhak or Saint to fight evil or destroy evil doers ? A sadhak's duty is to observe dharma oneself. A sadhak's duty is not to indulge in evil himself. His eye is always set upon self improvement, his eye is never set upon improving or changing others.

Said Swamiji...." Saints do the task of establishing Dharma , but they do not do the task of destroying evil doers."...." The destruction of sins is done by Saints/Sadhaks but the destruction of sinners is exclusively done by God Himself" ( Sadhak Sanjeevani- BG 4:7/8) !!!

Swamiji went on to state:

JUST AS: Routine dressing is done by a Compounder/ Nurse in a hospital, but the surgical operation is conducted by Surgeon and not by compounder. SIMILARLY: A Saint establishes Dharma ( behaves in accordance with the dictates of Scriptures, observes himself Dharma), but they do not do destruction of evil doers/ adharmik people. The task of destruction of evil doers is kept by God for Himself and for no other.

How Divine....How beautiful observation...that is duty of Sadhaks and Saints. Read Gita 4:7 and 8 carefully.

Now why did Arjuna was asked to fight? Because it was his duty to do so, in the given situations and circumstances. The statement by Lord that they are already dead and you be the medium, is not some cock and bull story but a clear, categorical signal, that given situation was exceptional and duty of Arjuna extended to fight the war. That war did not necessarily destroyed the evil, it destroyed good too. So that can not be taken as a rule, but as an exception to the rule. There too, the real devotees of Lord knew that it is Lord who is killing them not Arjuna. Gandhari's curse to Lord Krishna shows Gandhari held Krishna to be responsible. Lord also said so in Gita. That does not mean it is duty of every human to fight wars. In Gita, duty of humans is very lucidly explained. Being a Kshtriya, it was duty of Arjuna to fight war. They tolerated evil also, excessively and war was the last resort.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Dear sadaks,
Do you mean to say Rishi sitting in Samadhi will be taken over by Evil? Idle
mind is devil`s workshop another great man said. Silencing the mind means let
thoughts focus that "I" am in this body (Roop) and in Maya. Nothing is mine. All
rental including wife, children etc.Time come they dont wait to tell you
go.Without doing nothing is only when body falls. If you sit quite mind travels
far and wide. Maanusha (Mind) action. So each person has his own Dharma. Arjuna
Dharma as Chatriya (King) to fight and establish Dharma for for others. If he
does not want to do so, he has become sanyasi/ ordinary grahasta/ vaishya etc
NOT king.. Now coming to rape: Droupathi was attempted to be raped. All were
quite- No action. Because something Dharma bind them. Untimate is Sri Krishna
came only when called. So the happening around you can be protected only within
your power. You dont know your ability and enter into conflict, trouble comes.
B.S

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The statement quoted here isn't basis of any actions. Evil prevails or perishes
as per God's Will.
Arjun didn't kill the Kauravas. He served only as a medium (nimitta). Gita
verses 26 to 29, describe Arjun witnessing the destruction (naasha) of Kauravas
long before he actually served as a medium for them being killed.
Now regarding incidences of rapes these days, it can be said that it is
misfortune (durbhaagya) of the women and shameful (sharmanaak) of men witness
these acts.
Instead of saying,''We have to act and help others (including us) to be happy,
healthy, wise and remove their suffering.'', it would be useful to state ways
(actual line of actions to be done) and means (strategy and tactics) to achieve
success.
Kindly come forward with concrete plans. Every member of this forum is willing
to DO something (not doing nothing).
Humbly,
Saadhaka

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From Duryodhna's point of view Arjuna was an evil. Pandavas got the kingdom of
Hastinapura by default, as Pandu was made king instead of Dhritharashtra who was
blind (not his fault). So, there is nothing like absolute evil. If evil can be
identified easily and objectively, all people would join in fighting it. But
evil is in the beholder's mind.
I think the greatest teaching of Gita is not to fight evil, but to fight
injustice. Duryodhana committed an act of injustice by going back on his
contract to give back the kingdom to Pandavas when they return from the forest
after fulfilling their part of the contract. Their part of the contract was to
spend twelve years in the forests and one year incognito. This they willingly
agreed to do because Dharmaraja bet his wife and kingdom and lost his bet in the
game of chess.
All human actions are governed by understandings and contracts, and if either
party violates the terms of the contract, then that can be regarded as evil and
the other parties to the contract will have to fight it. I think this is what
Krishna asked Arjuna to do. He said, never mind the bloodshed involved, but
establish justice. All the rest of his talk that He had already killed Drona etc
and Arjuna was merely an instrument to bring it about is Vyasa's cock-and-bull
story. - Dr K Srinivasa Rao.

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Murari ji;
Krishna talks of Dharma Vs Afharma. Why do you translate Adharma as Evil. Evil
is because elf SATN in Christianity but there is no option of SAtan in Hindu
Dharma. There is notion f Avidya but that is not Evil?
Ravindra Koul

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But there is no notion of Evil in Hindu Dharma. Certainly not in Bhagvad Geeta.
So why do you chose this quote?
Ravindra Koul

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