Monday, April 30, 2012

[gita-talk] Re: why all reincarnations happened in India only ?

 

When Krishna is all in all for this universe why all his referenes are limited to India . Probably in those times swarga was Himalaya and patal was south India . At the max we see referene of Lanka in Ramayana and Gandhari from Gandhar in Mahabharata . But these were part of Indian subcontinent .

Girish

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I would like to clarify few common misconceptions. Bhagavatam mentions 22 avatars and very few of them are on earth ---

1) Four kumaras - They are sons of Brahma and not related to earth.
2) Varaha - Again not on earth.
3) Narada - He is son of Brahma. Not on earth.
4) Nara Narayana Rishi --- Not in present India as it was before partial annihilation. In partial annihilation, earth was submerged in water...
5) Kapila Deva - Not in present India as it was before partial annihilation. In partial annihilation, earth was submerged in water...
6) Dattatreya
7) Rishabha Deva - Not in present India as it was before partial annihilation. In partial annihilation, earth was submerged in water...
8) Yajna -- This avatar is in heavens (svarga loka)
9) Prithu - Prithu Avatar changed the landscape of earth. Before this avatar, earth used to be quite different.
10) Matsya - Earth was completely submerged in water during this avatar. All cities, countries etc were destroyed during this avatar. It was partial annihilation called pralaya.
11 to 13) Kurma, Dhanvantari and Mohini - Again these avatars are in higher planets and not on earth.
14) Narsimha - Hiranyakashipu was king of svarga loka and other higher planets. This avatar is not on earth.
15) Vamama - the son of Aditi and the brother of Indra. Avatar appeared in higher planets.
16) Parashuram - This avatar can be said to be on earth.
17) Veda Vyasa - On earth.
18) Ram - Ayodhya
19 to 20) Krishna Balaram
21) Buddha
22) Kalki - the son of Vishnu-yasha. Future avatar.

Out of 22 avatars, only 6 can be said on earth and in Indian subcontinent.

Bhagavatam further clarifies - "
The incarnations of the Lord are innumerable, like rivulets flowing from inexhaustible sources of water. All the sages, Manus, devatas and descendants of Manu, who are especially powerful, are also avatars of the Lord. The avatars appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the non-devotees. The Lord incarnates to protect his devotees."

"Vasudeva sarvam" - Everyone is manifestation of Vasudeva. So, all human beings are manifestation (ansh) of God. We are all avatars if we see ourselves as sat, chid and anand instead of identifying ourselves with inert matter (prakritti).

G B

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Harekrishna ,

Some devotees misunderstood my doubt . I am not talking about reincarnation of common man which we call rebirth .
My doubt was why God took avatars in India only when his jurisdiction was covering whole universe .

Thanks for responding . I satisfied with the explaination of Mr Rakesh which is as follows---

God incarnates everywhere, but recognized by indians.
Thats why we get Krishna and Rama in India, while other countries get the sons
and the messengers.
Its like only a person with eyesight can see light, not blind.
Its only a devotee who can recognize God, not an athiest.
regds,
rakesh

Thanks and regards to all .
Girish Limaye

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God incarnates everywhere except that only in India he is recognized.
Some examples:
1) Tulsi is grown in most part of the worlds, but only indians see divinity in
it
2)Peepal is grown in most part of the worlds, but only worshipped in India
3) Great souls are born in other part of worlds, but people assign reasons for
their greatness in so called scientific way that the person was physically
strong or stronger intellect or other scientific/limited aspect. Only in India
people acknowledge the reason of greatness to divinity, they ascribe the cause
of greatness in a soul to divinity, to that soul being the supersoul or god
himself.
4) People in India acknowledge presence of God in Cow to stone and almost all
things in world, then why not would God only seen in India.
5) I was seeing a program in TV where a babaji was showing miraculous powers of
his amazing forbearance to heat & fire. He was ascribing the reason to divine or
devi maa, mother Goddess. He was not saying that he is very strong to bear the
fire. On other hand a person of even bigger strength from US was also shown.
Scientists of western world were ascribing the reason of his bearance to extreme
cold to his Strength.
There was so clear difference the way Indians ascribe every cause to divinity
and the way Westerners ascribe every cause to some physical aspect that science
acknowledge.
In such an environment why would God be seen anywhere else in world except in
India. Though he may born anywhere in world.
6) Look at the caves of India. All of the caves have been turned into temples as
Indians see divine into their existence. Indians see divine if snow grows in
form of Linga(amarnath), we see divine when lime water is dripping on stone
below (Tapkeshwar temple, dehradun). Examples are many. While in rest of the
world such things are labelled scientific phenomenon and turned into tourist
spots.

So the way Indians devote and put God(cause of causes) behind all causes, its
only in India its possible to get the Gods. By putting god as cause behind any
phenomenon, one would always be right. Putting anything else as cause (e.g.,
physical strength, intellect etc) we might be mistaken and would be considered
correct only until a new scientifc theory is put forth.

regds,
rakesh

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The question assumes reincarnations happen in India only and then suggests the South as Pataal, which could not be more wrong.

Souls are being reincarnated from one nation to another, from one relgion to another I am sure just as Avatars would have come all over the world but at each region's level of Dharmic understanding.

Its sad that the old church destroyed the West's past as paganism and the Islamists destroyed the oldest universities Taxila and Nalanda but in case of Hindus due to the illustrious Brahmin system of oral tradition the Hindu scripture survived.

Even in England we have the Stonehenge structure from a Druids era c.2500bce when their Brahminical priests exercised the oral tradition and possibly of Vedic scripture but since the early church destroyed these learned priests we will never know.

But once I gave a lecture on Hinduism at the secular society here in the UK and a Slovak lady afterwards came to me and said that their word for 'to know' is 'ved-it', and I immediately sensed the Sanskrit and Veda connection. Even the talk of calendar below the latin names of months come from sanskrit.

Sadly I have heard that in Lithuania there is a devils museum which houses an idol of Kali and an idol of Hanuman - can't confirm, just heard so.

The point is there has been so much imperialist destruction due to the monotheist ideology of overpowring others to their own club what we know of the ancient world is very little, but suffice to say that the Greeks, the Druids in Western Europe did BELIEVE in reincarnation.

Anil Bhanot

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Hey Prabhu

Message of Vijay reminds me of following Doha:

SAB JAG ISHWAR ROOP HAI, BHALO BURO NAHIN KOI !
JAAKI JAISI BHAWANA VAISO HI PHAL HOY !!
The entire world is manifestation of God, there is no good or bad there. As you are , so appears the world the you, and so you get results.

Mohit

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Hari Om !

Whereever there is more greenery, more trees , there is more rain. And whereever there is more rain, there is more greenery and more trees.

Similarly, whereever there is more faith, more devotees, there will be more Avatars. And whereever there are more avatars, there will be more faith and more devotees.

Om ! Om ! Om Ananda !

-Anil M

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Radhey ! Radhey !!


Mankind indeed has been divided into boundaries for righteous governance. God has to incarnate where such governance exists...sure !

Radhey ! Radhey !!

Nisha Chatterji

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Hari Om

A human being essentially is a debtor to all. He owes to all , be it mother, father, relatives, society, country. In fact, each and everything which comes in his/her contact during human life, he/she has a duty towards that thing/person. He must GIVE only, he MUST never TAKE. You are sadhak ONLY when you begin to GIVE. As a law a sadhak ONLY gives, never takes. A human owes a lot to his/her country ! He/she should never forget the obligation of dust from which he/she has been made. Precisely therefore, universally 'patriotism' is seen as a divine trait ! You owe a lot to the land where you are born. One should never talk ill of the country to which he belongs- NEVER- even in dreams. The biggest sin for a human is INGRATITUDE ! When you are ingrate, Scriptures say: Even dog does not eat delicacies offered by you to it. Never be critical to your country...NEVER !

There is nothing wrong in being a proud Indian or American or African or English or any like that. You have to be first of your parents and then of society and then of country and then of world at large. You can't be of the world at large (Universal Brother), if you are not of your country( a patriot), you can't be of your country, if you are not of your society; you can't be of your society, if you are not of your family, you can't be of your family if you are not of your parents ....and you can't be of God if you are not of your father and mother...AS A LAW !! Your country is your mother...!!!! Exactly therefore, selfless service to one's parents is an independent method of God/Self realisation. Exactly therefore, one who dies for one's country is always considered respectable and gets God's abode !

Hence never talk ill of your country...NEVER ! How can be you of God ( Parampita) if you can't be of your country even ? So simple..so easy..so clear...!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Feeling that my country is great, my religion is great, my community is great, my family is great and all other "my so and so is great" boils down to an intrinsic crave to establish how "I AM GREAT"! It is but natural to feel that way. But, none of such claims can be superior to one's claim "I am great!". Very often such a claim is heavily discounted, discarded and even thwarted by force when it remains singular. Therefore, one would resort to something more global and collective to make the same claim to acquire strength and support for the claim - less opposition and more support. That is the social agenda as well as obligation. Even the claims such as "God is great!" remains in such shallow realms as far as the understanding and appreciation of the "God" remains within the realms of the individual or community that is staking the claim!!! The ignorance dominates in all such claims since one is making futile attempts to levitate one's identity in all such attempts. Even great religions often slip into the darkness of ignorance when its population is stormed by the ignorance.

It is one of the great weaknesses most humans are infested with - "I ought to be great because of my origin - parents, society, country, etc.". No wonder why our seers discouraged and erased worship of Brahma, The Creator. YES! IT IS GREAT TO BE BORN IN A GREAT FAMILY. But, it is the grace of luck one attains one's birth, however it is. One has no authority to be "proud" of that! One should be just grateful for that. It remains dubious when it comes to "what one has done to make/keep one's community/nation great?". Gloating on our ancestors' "success" has no meaning as that does not change anything that we are today! In fact, it may let us slide down further as we encapsulate ourselves in such sweet ignorance. Yes! Our ancestors were great!! We are lucky to inherit their strength and wisdom!!! Everything is fine ... BUT ... ARE WE REALLY INHERTITING THEIR STRENGTH AND WISDOM??? Greatness is in the absorption of the qualities. That can happen only when one lets oneself to be absorbed by the very greatness.

Again in this case, no one is entitled to conclusively claim anything on behalf of "The God" since the later remains omnipotent (beyond anyone's power), omnipresent (beyond anyone's existence) and omniscient (beyond anyone's knowledge) as accepted by the very party that is staking the claim! Also, it is not within anyone's purview to witness anything beyond one life span. Therefore, any insistent claim regarding re-birth itself is utter ignorance. Assertions regarding re-incarnations remains much more dubious. Therefore, I would append Humble Sadhaka's comment that it is not only Garvokti but also MouDhyokti to insist "divine re-incarnations are limited to my nation"! Let us hear the same when the same is shrunk to one's individual level "divine incarnation occurs only in me!!!" ... doesn't it sound Garvokti? ... doesn't it sound MoDhyokti?? How can it expanded version sound differently???

Can any particle sustain without HIS firm establishment within? Every particle ought to be HIS incarnation only. In other words, EVERYTHING IS VERILY THAT ... Sarvam khalu idam brahmaa ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

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-Shree Hari-

First of all I would like to express my amazement at Dr. Puneet Gupta second
post, his first was
brilliant, but his second was just words, one could say the same of Australia re
the fauna.

Pratap Bhatt's post was a post of wisdom not of xenophobia, re
'Avataaras(Sat-Chit-Ananda) cannot
be limited by Time-Space.' Exactly!! There is a powerful point the Divine does
not belong to a
place and time, it IS.

Now what's this rubbish about an English calender, there is no English calender,
it's the Roman
calender, the native languages of western Europe were displaced by the Roman
language, those old
languages like the Celtic tongues, (one of which I have studied) are
Indo-European).

The Roman/Christian mobs destroyed the Alexandra Library, the same fate befell a
major library in
Mesopotamia, I believe Islam finished the wrecking. We know little or nothing
about the
druids apart from the bardic traditions, the Romans killed the last of them off
on the Isle of
Anglesey, the Cathars who actually followed a tradition that seemed to be close
to the Indian
traditions, were a very mystical branch of Christianity, the Roman Church
slaughtered them all,
many thousands, and burnt the last to surrender!

So my fellow sadhaks, forget about your Anglophobia, you are fortunate that you
never had to
endure the Romans direct, although truly your lands have suffered, and be joyful
because your
rich spiritual texts have survived.

Not sure but, if anyone believes that reincarnation only happens in India, not
worth talking
about, that's rubbish!

Now we Barbarians who live beyond the borders of India, such as my land, have
universal heath
care, pensions for the sick and elderly, pharmaceutical benefits, free education
at sub
tertiary level, free palliative care at home for the dying, and free to very
cheep care at home
for those in need. Aged care according to means, for those who have no means of
support...

As a desert father of the very early Christian Church(John Cassian), said, look
to your souls
brothers.(that was said in the singular, a little license).

Om... Shanti...

Mike.

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Raam....!

You perceive the world based on the mental equipment you possess. It is unfortunate one chooses one's own mother land for sarcasm and playing jokes in lighter vein. Today it is your mother land, tomorrow ? The habits and attitudes die very hard. Says Gita - Svabhavastu Pravartate.Mike's last para is rather uncharacteristic of him. I thought he got really impressed by India particularly when I read him talking about Yoga Vashishtha. Now that is just one scripture. India is mine of such scriptures. If the fact regarding reincarnation of God in India is a story, than what does Yoga Vaashishtha contain except stories? That then becomes an ordinary soul. Why he, many see the Scriptures to be mere stories only. Pratap Bhatt is also seeing the omnipresence of God and is erroneously basing his observation only on that. His co-relation of incarnation of God with modern technology speaks volumes in itself.

There is nothing wrong in being a proud for its motherland. One must be...! Maharajji said: Whereever you go, never forget your culture. He defined that by 5 things. 1. Dress 2. Food 3 Marriage 4 Occupation 5 Education. Those who reside outside India must never change them. Humbleness does not get vitiated thereby. But then, it is as individual a perception of being humble but not proud; or being proud as well as humble, or being proud but not humble, or being none. That , in any case does not address the Question and so long as pride or non pride, humble or non humble does not get corelated with reasoning or relevance it can only mean waste of effort.

Let there be no criticism directly or indirectly, jokingly or seriously, in lighter or heavy vein at least of one's own motherland. It is not that dirt is not there elsewhere. When you criticise , what else is that except garbage? The world is made dual by God.

Raam....!!

Sachin

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Namaste

Once Dronacharya, Teacher of both Arjuna and Duryodhana, asked Arjuna to go and find out a bad person in the village nearby and asked Duryodhana to find a good person in the same village. Both came back empty handed. Arjuna said that he observed many people but could not find any bad person. Duryodhana said he observed almost all of them but could not find a single good person...!!! Moral: As you are, so looks the world to you. It is a strange thing , but it is very true. Precisely therefore , when rains are over the owner puts green glass opticals over the eyes of donkey. It then sees the dry grass also green and eats it. Sees green grass only, because the colour of opticals over its eyes is green.

Ashish Dhawan

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why all reincarnations happened in India only ?

Because You do not see what you do not look for.
People are often oblivious to signs of reincarnation in their children.
They often dismiss it or called it Childish rambling.-Kishore

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I would like to clarify few common misconceptions. Bhagavatam mentions 22 avatars and very few of them are on earth ---

1) Four kumaras - They are sons of Brahma and not related to earth.
2) Varaha - Again not on earth.
3) Narada - He is son of Brahma. Not on earth.
4) Nara Narayana Rishi --- Not in present India as it was before partial annihilation. In partial annihilation, earth was submerged in water...
5) Kapila Deva - Not in present India as it was before partial annihilation. In partial annihilation, earth was submerged in water...
6) Dattatreya
7) Rishabha Deva - Not in present India as it was before partial annihilation. In partial annihilation, earth was submerged in water...
8) Yajna -- This avatar is in heavens (svarga loka)
9) Prithu - Prithu Avatar changed the landscape of earth. Before this avatar, earth used to be quite different.
10) Matsya - Earth was completely submerged in water during this avatar. All cities, countries etc were destroyed during this avatar. It was partial annihilation called pralaya.
11 to 13) Kurma, Dhanvantari and Mohini - Again these avatars are in higher planets and not on earth.
14) Narsimha - Hiranyakashipu was king of svarga loka and other higher planets. This avatar is not on earth.
15) Vamama - the son of Aditi and the brother of Indra. Avatar appeared in higher planets.
16) Parashuram - This avatar can be said to be on earth.
17) Veda Vyasa - On earth.
18) Ram - Ayodhya
19 to 20) Krishna Balaram
21) Buddha
22) Kalki - the son of Vishnu-yasha. Future avatar.

Out of 22 avatars, only 6 can be said on earth and in Indian subcontinent.

Bhagavatam further clarifies - "
The incarnations of the Lord are innumerable, like rivulets flowing from inexhaustible sources of water. All the sages, Manus, devatas and descendants of Manu, who are especially powerful, are also avatars of the Lord. The avatars appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the non-devotees. The Lord incarnates to protect his devotees."

"Vasudeva sarvam" - Everyone is manifestation of Vasudeva. So, all human beings are manifestation (ansh) of God. We are all avatars if we see ourselves as sat, chid and anand instead of identifying ourselves with inert matter (prakritti).

G B

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Rember
Lotus originated in India and has spread on planet earth after being taken from India.

Majority of Indian trees are native ti India
and not found anywhere else on earth like
indian sandalwood
indian mangoes
indian bodhi trees
etc
when the Imdian fauna can be special
why not the Indian thought and philosophy and
human personalities.

"Dr. Puneet Gupta"

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In all humility, freedom to express our understanding of spiritual matters to answer for the questioner requires all of us to integrate Love and Open mind in our answers! For the most part I see it present in this forum, but once in a while we seem to lose it even as our intentions are good. If we take opposite views in right spirit, we will find there is no "opposite view" at all in the first place, only another view point worth investigating and then rejecting if necessary or find reconciliation!

For me, Shree Krishna is Pure Consciouness/Awareness/Sat, speaking to all who want to listen to Truth. Body-mind of Krishnaji, place of birth, period in which He lived is incidental, of academic interests only. This Truth was spoken, and is being spoken now too by individuals across the globe at all times and has been heard by few around them too, who are benefiting!

Avataaras(Sat-Chit-Ananda) cannot be limited by Time-Space. With the advent of technology, it is spreading beyond man-made boundaries of minds and nations! When one sees Truth speaking in and through all such Avataars, Messengers, Masters, Son of God, then one realizes that wherever/whenever their births take place, takes place only in the Universe, which mankind only has divided into boundaries for righteous governance! Unfortunately nationalities have divided us and led us to wars!

Finally, I feel humbled, not proud, by such Great Saints and Sages who were born in the lands we call India now or Bharat in the ancient times. I am Grateful to be able to understand them through Scriptures as others are blessed by Saints and Sages born in their lands!

May we all be blessed by such Universal Wisdom and be humbled!

Namaskar.................Pratap Bhatt

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Hari Om

Aah..! Long live Dr Puneet Gupta !! What a message !!! My compliments for a wonderful research for the benefit of Satsanga ! This Divine Forum never ceases to amaze me due to presence of real spiritual talent in it which manifests just when the time is right. Divine Sadhaks we have now a scientist too in this Forum. 'Gupta Limit' - that is India , that is our pride.

Frankly, India is far ahead of any other country on the planet when it comes to culture, civilization, character, affluence, knowledge and wisdom. Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma contain enormous knowledge and depth. Both Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga are 100% scientific. You can emancipate yourself without even thinking about God. Belief, of course, is predominant in Bhakti Yoga. In no other religion such in-depth analysis of Jeeva, Jagat and Jagdish has been made, as is in Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma. The classification of human body into Gross, Subtle and Causal by Scriptures is an example of scientific religion.

Scriptures of all other Dharmas are very limited and actually are more talking about ideal conduct than about causes ! Existence of other Lokas appear possible to them, but where are detailed narrations in that regard ? Where are classifications? They don't explain in such detail many important and crucial aspects of Jeeva, Jagat and Jagdish as do Hindu Dharma Scriptures.
Religion and Science they always appear opposite to all but it is ONLY in Sanatan Dharma that they both glitter together. Which other religion, except Sanatan Dharma can boast of being scientific? It is little wonder that all AVATAARS of Paramatma take place only in India.
Thanks !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Hey Prabhu

Reading message of Dr Gupta was pleasure. He has given reasons for all avataars so simply but so accurately, be it Boar Avataar or Vaman Avataar. He confirms that it is India from where the very dharma emerges. Calculations revealed by him of TIME, in his very well researched message are accurate on the very face of it. That is India, its brain and its people.

Actually, Hindu Sanskriti has given tremendous contribution to man kind throughout the kalpas and yugas. Everything about India is VILAKSHAN. If you compare English language with Sanskrita language/ Hindi language , you will find as to how vast and scientific is Sanskrita language as against English. If any person is ready to argue for English language vis a vis Sanskrita/Hindi , wqelcome. English is most unscientific language and too tiny and limited when we compare it with Sanskrita/Hindi language. It is my firm belief and knowledge. In English there is no logic, no science, no rationale, no order ! . Any reader of Gita or Indian Scriptures will instantly tell you the limitations of English language. If given one hour < I can give minimum 100 words of Hindi/Sanskrita for which there is no word in English. Same is case with spoken words.

Look at the qualitative differences between English calendar and Indian Samvat calendar. Look at Holy Gita. Bible might have been "translated" in many languages but Gita....it has been "commented" upon by hundreds of geniuses throughout the centuries and still it is deeper and deeper ! The rituals, the beliefs which India has, no other country in the world can ever touch upon them. Real science has roots in India. In no other civilisation and culture, a more thorough and detailed analysis has been made on various issues pertaining to mankind, a human being and reasons of sorrows. When you read Scriptures of India, you can never fail to admire the depth which they encompass.

On MATERIAL front also, India has never been behind these so called western or "developed" countries. It is easier to find in India people having majority of "daivy" gunas as desceribed in Gita (Chapter 16) than in other countries. STILL , EVEN IN THIS KALIYUGA, you find India to have that spiritual and character fragrance more than anywhere else.

THAT IS WHY, MR QUESTIONER, INDIA IS THE PLACE WHERE ALL REINCARNATIONS TAKE PLACE. God must have a comparitively decent place to put His Divine Feet. Where else can He go, except to INDIA ?

Mohit Desai

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Dear Sadhak,

II Shree Hari Har II

I whole heartedly extend Sadhuwad to Shri Dr Punit Gupta for enlighting us with the wonderful philosophy of our Shrimad Bhagwat and other Shastras!

We all Sadhak vrind must express our gratitude to Shri Dr Punit Gupta for his splendid cooperation to our Sanatan Dharam.

Shubhamastu,

RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA
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by saying that only a devotee can see the God, you are concluding that there is no devotee in rest of the world and hence no avtaar of God has taken place in rest of the world.

Please put more light on this.

jai shri ram

amit gupta

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-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

I would first like to acknowledge the superb post of Dr. Puneet Gupta, it lifts
the quality of
this subject to grand heights, and has given me validation of my own thoughts.
Sadhak Krishna
mirrored my thoughts, also I applaud the simple statement: 'every bit of this
creation is God's,
and may I add,and all creations unseen by us (ref Vaasishtha).
Think about it, if you lay on your back on a fresh moonless night, the tiniest
speck of light
you may see, could be a cluster of galaxies the light from which started on its
journey to your
eye, before the dinosaurs.

Syria, Iraq, Iran

* The archives and texts at Ebla, ca. 2500 to the destruction of the city
ca. 2250 BC,
constitute the oldest organized library yet discovered: see Ebla tablets.
* The libraries of Ugarit (in modern Syria), c. 1200 BC, include diplomatic
archives,
literary works and the earliest privately-owned libraries yet recovered.
* The Library of Ashurbanipal (established 668-627 BC), in Nineveh (near
modern Mosul,
Iraq), long considered to be the first systematically collected library,
was rediscovered
in the 19th century. While the library had been destroyed, many fragments
of the ancient
cuneiform tablets survived, and have been reconstructed. Large portions of
the Epic of
Gilgamesh were among the many finds.
Now that's pretty ancient is it not?
Australian Aboriginal history goes back way beyond 25000
years, their library is dance, song rock art, and dream time stories, he tells
of extinct
volcanoes that have been dormant for 15000 years talks of animals that went
extinct 20000 years
ago, his concept of the 'Dream time' is as sophisticated as any explanation of
the Jiva I have
read.

Does God only incarnate in India yes, in India's legends. Here is a point that
few Christians
comprehend. Jesus,(Christ to be more precise), has been identified as the Word
translated from
the Greek Logos, who is identified as theos, (a god) The Logos is the creator of
all. He was
with Ton Theon ( GOD) in the beginning, thus GOD internal was the Father of the
Logos, who
was God 'In Time', that's where the concept came from. (Brahman Brahma?)

Shamanism is the oldest known religion in the world still in practice, as old as probably 70000 years, it did not have a founder, as fare is known.

Believe in stories if you wish, but realize that they may well be allegorical.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.

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In a lighter vein , on the Subject: Why only Indians are re-born! ( which hypothesis I don't agree with as I think every soul is subject to the same cosmic rules) …… but despite that if anyone believes only Indians are reborn then …….

Indians and rebirth

The angel Gabriel came to the Lord and said: 'I have to talk to you.

We have some Indians up here in heaven and they are causing problems.

They're swinging on the pearly gates, my horn is missing, they are wearing Dolce and Gabana sarees instead of their white robes,

they are riding Mercedes and BMWs instead of the chariots, and they're selling their halos to people for discounted prices.

They refuse to keep the stairway to Heaven clear or clean, since they keep crouching down midway eating samosas and drinking chai (tea). Some of them are even walking around with just one wing !

They do not believe in discipline and push their way through the line.'

The Lord said, 'Indians are Indians. Heaven is home to all my children. If you want to know about real problems, give Satan a call.'

Satan answered the phone, 'Hello? Damn, hold on a minute.' Satan returned to the phone, 'OK I'm back. What can I do for you?'

Gabriel replied, 'I just wanted to know what kind of problems you're having down there.'

Satan says, 'Hold on again. I need to check on something.'

After about 5 minutes Satan returns to the phone and said, 'I'm back. Now what was the question?'

Gabriel said, 'What kind of problems are you having down there?'

Satan says, 'Man I don't believe this .. Hold on.'

This time Satan was gone at least 15 minutes. He returned and said, "I'm sorry Gabriel, I can't talk right now. These Indians are trying to install air conditioning and making hell a comfortable place to live in by putting out the fire, which is there to keep them uncomfortably hot!! Since they are so tech savvy, they were trying to start a telephone and IT connection between heaven and hell between ME and GOD. They have started a socal network service for the troubled and believe in Karma and are good in convincing others.

Some were trying to start a chai - pakora, Chole batura, channa, Dosa and samosa, barfi, Chakli and Dokla shop, which I had to stop.

Many have no trouble living in dirt as they are so used to it down on earth. We have shortage of toilets to make them uncomfortable as this is Hell, but they have no problems in doing everything outside in open.

They are excellent in corrupting everyone and my staff are being bribed by them and I have difficulty in controlling the graft and corruption in Hell.

They never complain as this place seems to be better from where they came. I am having such a hard time controlling and dealing with them!! I am therefore requesting you

OH LORD, PLEASE send them back to earth as soon as they arrive for re-birth".

So this is why Indians are the only ones that are re-born !

vijay meghani

------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

As usual I see wonderful talent emerging in this Divine Forum ! It is all Divine Grace. Welcome Sachin ! This Forum is exceptional, a place where you can make exception to Satyam Brooyaat, Priyam Brooyat, Na Brooyat Satyam Apriyam. Here you can afford to speak Sat even if it is bitter. But you must speak SAT !

I agree with Sadhak Sachin and Kuldipji! Many sadhaks have confused 'avtaar' with omnipresence of Paramatma. Just As: There is water everywhere beneath the surface of earth but it comes out only through a well ! Just As: God is every where but emerges only where there is Prem.. Similarly: While God is everywhere but when it comes to avataar , it has to take place in India only . Reason is simple: Re-establishment has to be at the place of establishment only. There may be a different geographical state/definition of 'India' as we see today and as then existing, but that is not material. 'Kandhaar' is in Afghanistan, 'Gandhaar' may not be (I am not sur). I don't see any logic in our trying to find out what are the new names of cities mentioned in Scriptures. India is India.

World has many religions but except Sanatan Dharma, all other have founders. The Sanatan Dharma has no founder. It is NITYA (beginningless /end less/ ever existing) - as old as is humanity itself.

Great Divine Satsanga ! Let us deliberate with no bias, equanimously. Let us be proud of our country , of our heritage and of our Sanatan Dharma. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj always said that those who took birth in this great country always have extra-privilege, very special Divine grace...!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------------------------

Jai Siyaram

All 23 or more avataars of Param Prabhu Parameshwar have taken place in India and any future avataars will also take place in India only. That is what Scriptures say. This fact has no relevance with presence of God everywhere. India is country of God - this statement does not mean that God is not present in other countries. I wonder where Sadhak Alok is having his abode, but am sure he must be living on the planet called earth only. Once that is so, is he sure that the place where he lives no abortions take place or no injustice is apparent ? For such flimsy and funny reasons one should not criticise one's home country. Shame is not in what he has stated about India or about Lord Rama, but shame is in the fact that he too belongs to this Great Country of Rishis, Saints and Sages. One who can not be of his birth place, what can he be to other place? Nothing, in fact....!

We should deliberate on the subject. One should give reasons for one's view. We are not outcaste who have to worry as to whether the truth spoken is received with what sentiments by other countries. We are in Satsanga and have duty to speak truth. Oh....those who reside outside India how much flith they carry about India? I am sure such people are not representative sample....! Somebody from India may also be at the helm of this Divine Forum too....!!! That is India.

Jai Siyaaraam

Sanjay Joshi

-------------------------------------------

Aum Namah Shivay

The response of Humble Sadhak is shocking. Where is need for worrying about outer world while expressing truth? Even if the response of Sachin is wrong (which it is not), then also how the image of India will take a beating? Is this Great country so weak? No, it is not. We are weak, biased and proudy as individuals. There is no GARVOKTI in what Sachin has said, you are VISHAM. You are biased, have incomprensible logics and ASHOCHYANANVA SHOCHASTVAM...PRAGYAAVADANSCH BHASASE..Gita 2:11! Realisation of Vasudev Sarvam with such bias of antahkarana: Impossible.

Regards

Manoj Srivastava

-------------------------------------------

Radhey-Krishna

All reincarnations have happened in India because the India is mother country of all religions. No country is as spiritual in essence as is India. There is no GARVOKTI here, it is truth. In India only there are 6 seasons in a year...where else in world? In India, still the dharma division made by Holy Gita is practiced? Where else in worldf? In India Holy Ganges flows. Where else in world? In India, Saints and Sages take birth. Where else in world? Even foreigners like Mother Theresa have come to India and served humanity. Where else in the world she went? India is unique example of unity in diversity. Where else in the world such example exists. Fools only will adopt the yardstick of material affluence to judge India. Even today, whatever the developed nations may be boasting or some spoilt soul of India may be bragging sitting there, but the fact is INDIA IS THE RICHEST COUNTRY in the world. Highest number of Saints, Sages, Rishis, Warriors, Intellectuals, Scientists, Inventors, Philosophers, Craftsmen...have taken birth in India. Where else in the world?

But the logic advanced by Kuldip Kaul and Sachin is the best answer to the Q. In future also, India will be the focal point of the world. Lord Kali will reincarnate here only in a shudra family and will reestablish Dharma as promised by Gita.

Mohit Desai

--------------------------------------------------

When Krishna is all in all for this universe why all his referenes are limited to India . Probably in those times swarga was Himalaya and patal was south India . At the max we see referene of Lanka in Ramayana and Gandhari from Gandhar in Mahabharata . But these were part of Indian subkontinent .

Girish

-------------------------------------------------------
all the old civilizations have their own GOD s and GODDESSES .all the land is divided into different countries by oceans or mountains they have their own geographical conditions which is responsible for their flora and fauna .so this is explained

Chaman nigam

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mike,
I appreciate your knowledge of world history and your respect for Indian
scriptures.
Just want to answer few of your queries:
1) We were fortunate that scriptures got saved or romans din't touch us fully:
Please note that the values of Indian tradition were not passed on from one gen
to next by only gross means like building libraries or writing books. Those were
transferred by guru-shishya tradition and practising in day-to-day living.
Invaders did all to destroy Indian culture too by means of destroying the gross
aspects. What they failed in destroying were the subtle aspects built in our
tradition. Britishers did their best in destroying those subtle aspects and were
successful to some extent(Many Indians today adopt English as main Language and
hindi as last). But in long term it only helped Indian values to spread even
further and beyond. The sanaatan dharma values are so intrinsic to humans that
even thinking to destroy them is foolish.

2) No facilities available to Indians as are available to people in financially
advanced nations
The facilities available don't reflect the happiness of an individual else only
rich people would be happier.
Availability of facilities don't increase your appetite else only rich people
would feel hungry.
Availability of facilities don't necessarily give you sound sleep, else only
people of rich nations would sleep sound.
Availability of facilities don't increase the love in your heart else only rich
people would feel love.

Availability or lack of facility doesn't help in anyway a person who want to
tread the path of spiritual growth, the path of devotion or love. Facilities are
incidental only.

On top of that, the kind of facilities you have listed sound very hollow.
1) Indians may not have old age homes, but atleast 90% of aged die in their
homes surrounded by their sons/grand & daughters/grand.
2) Indians may not have social benefits, but 80% of India live in village where
joint families provide the security net.
3) Indians may not have universal health care, but almost everyone knows the
cure for basic diseases. We don't have to run to doctors for common cold, cough
and so many such things. Every town and village would have a homeopath or
ayurvedic doctor who would be taking care of patients for nominal or no fees.
Only issue is that statistics don't take account of such doctors or vaidyas and
the real value add being done by those folks.

Most of the problems in India are felt by those Indian people who live by
western standards.
I don't mean that in India we have no issues, no problems, but the problems are
of gross nature not subtle.

I feel pity for so called financially advanced countries as the problems in
those countries are at subtle level as focus is always to resolve issues at
gross level.
Unfortunately Indian government also follows the same model where solutions are
sought at gross level only.
But thanks to Sanaatan dharma and values embedded in Indian culture, Indians
will continue to grow spiritually.
regds,
rakesh

---------------------------------------------------------

Namaste

Responses of Humble Sadhak and Alok are too negative to deserve any comment at all. What to say? Indeed it is greatness of Paramatma and Mother Earth that we all are thriving. Did Alok ever read Ramayana? Look at the hatred and immaturity! They are called Indians abroad. Dear Humble Sadhak: We are worried about your objection to Sachin more, as to what impression does that carry rather than for Sachin's genuine comments. Garvokti is in your message not in his message.

Ashish Dhawan

------------------------------------------------
Lord Krishna was never the lord of earth alone but had power to affect whole universe especially the milky way galaxy was his main play station.

Bhagvatam declares that
earth lies
thirty thousand yojans
from the hood of sheshnag.

The modern astronomy tells us that
sun lies
thirty thousand light years
from black hole.

science tells that
black hole of milky way
is approximatly the
oldest black hole
and about one thousand like these exist

Bhagvatam tells that sheshnag was
eldest of all
one thousand brothers.

science tells that milky way black hole has
engulfed three other small black holes till date.

Bhagvatam quotes that Sheshnag killed
three of the brothers and then went into penance.

Father and mother of Sheshnag are as old as the
creation of our universe and
science tells
that milky way black hole was formed very early
after big bang and is about as old as creation itself.
Astro science tells that black hole of milky was
the first one to form after big bang and still survives
after clashing with three black holes.

Lord Krishna says to Arjuna
I have revealed this ancient knowledge
in remote past
to sun
meaning the time when originated the Sun
and from sun
symbolizing the soul
it percolated down to
intellect
mind
prana
and Jad

symbolized by
Ishvankoo
Manu
rishis
kings

To understand this remote past
and the origin of sun
Bhagvatam mentions the fourteen Manvantras.

the seventh manvantra is ongoing.
actually to understan the secret of
fourteen manvantras
just like
fourteen moon days
we have

Hindu month starting in
dark moon
then fourteen days of developing moon
then similar fourteen days of decreasing moon
finally dark night of next month

similarily
hindu sun cycle
kalp
start with a
dark manvantar
then fourteen developing manvantars
then fourteen decreasing Manvantars
finally dark unnamed manvantar or pralay manvantar.

Lord krishna thus say
new sun building block matter is born in the
dark manvantar
adjacent to sheshnag
also science say stars originate near black hole

then solar system takes form in say sixth manvantar.
now sun takes 240 million years to get around black hole signifying one manvantar.

each 240 million years saw different origins of life
first came microscopic and macroscopic life in water
symbolized by FISH incarnation of Lord.

then came dinosaurs symbolized by TURTLE incarnation of Lord as science tells us that turtles were present throughout the dinosaurs period and
also survived even after their death.

Then in another 240 million cycle came the four chambered heart and sharp tusk animals symbolized by WILD BOAR incarnation of Lord.

Then evolved mammals with strong territorial and multiple female dominance symbolized by LION incarnation of Lord.

finally crude human ancesters evolved on earth in recent manvantra symbolized by VAMAN avtar of Lord.

finally humans evolved as warriors occupying whole of the planet in current seventh manvantra symbolized by PURSHU RAM avtar.

In coming closing up manvantras only pure souls like that of Lord RAMA and Lord KRISHNA shall survive in twenty ninth manvantras as our milky way shall reach very close to the great attractor for restart of THIRD kalp,with blowing off the current sun and evolution of new sun.

after creation of our present sun
one dark
fourteen developing and
six wanning manvantars have gone
as we are in seven-th
thus actually 15+6=21 manvantars has gone
which means
the sun is about five billion years old
as revealed by Science and Bhagvat text.

and as we are in SECOND kalp
means
29 plus 21 manvantras
total fifty manvantras
meaning universe is
50 x 240 million years
around 12 billion years old

Latest Astronomy tells us today that

sun is about five billion years old

and universe is about twelve billion years old

these are well revealed by Lord Krishna

even further Bhagvatam calculations reveal that this universe shall expand for
1.2 crore crore crore years

nicknamed as
- Gupta limit-
by me for scientific writings

and then take same time to collapse back into mahakaal or bhavar Gufa as mentioned in Geeta
and other Hindu scriptures.

Lord masters
multiple universe thus
science say we account for only a little energy in
our single universe
rest is missing
because Lord creats multiple universe
each from a part or little subset of own energy
as mentioned in Bhagvat.

koti koti koti
oblivations to Lord Krishna
Jai Shree Hari.

Dr. Puneet Gupta
------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhaka,

Namahshivay,

Bharat (India) is the `udgam sthana' (home - beginning of the creation) of the creation of this universe and the sacred place All Mighty God chose to start the play of being et se anek (taking many forms out of his One form). That is the reason God chose to manifest Himself in different Avtaar forms on the most revered land Bharat!

Shubhamastu

RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA

-------------------------------------------

Dear Alok,
you have precisely defined the culture in actual suffering.And perhahps because of these degenerations various reincarnations have to evolve from time to time in india.Even those in command and enjoying elite status are insensitive to problems of suffering humanity particularly ladies.everywhere.There are mass movements organised by unscrupulous authorities in favour of rakshas.(recently punjab).And it was during very immoral and irresponsible environment that Lord Krishna struggled.This site is one of rare chances for all of us to express and remain connected.May be one day we are able cleanse the air.
subhashtewari

-------------------------------------------

Raam...!

Reply to Alok ! It is a law of nature: As you are, so looks the world to you.
Your looking at this great country is representative only of your own
mind/intellect and be certain that by your childish outburst no harm is caused to this country and you only have sowed seeds of negative karma. Let such hatred and negative conduct not become your habit. Concentrate on studies. If by Divine Grace you have touched upon this type of Satsanga Forum make good use of it rather than utterring non sense.Never forget your parents were born here and you too are made of this dust only. What kind of service you can render to humanity
if you hate the very dust from which you have been made?

That reminds me of the story of two ants who met after long time. One was living on a sugar mountain, was healthy and happy. Other on a salt mountain and was sad and weak. Sugar one praised its home and took the salt ant there. When checked, the salt ant said it finds no difference between its salt home and this sugar home. That surprised sugar ant. It made the salt ant open its mouth and found that it is retaining a salt crystal still in the mouth !!! Negativity, hatred, violent senseless exhibition of emotions..these are those salt crystals which prevent you from appreciating truth. Throw them away before they become part of your habit. Youngsters can do it faster because habits take roots in young age.
Later such non sensical actions become habit and start writing your destiny. Act fast.

Raam...!

Sachin

-----------------------------------------------

Accepting or rejecting (a) Krishna is all in all for this universe, (b) Swarga is Himalaya and Patal is South India, (c) Lanka in Ramayan and Gandhari from Gandhar in Maharashtra and all these were part of Indian Continent, MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO THE TRUTH (FACTS).
Humbly,
Saadhaka
-----------------------------------------------

Ram..!

India is the country of God. A unique country in its own right. No where else in
the world there is such spiritual fragrance as is in India. Yes, all
incarnations of God take place ONLY in India because God incarnates to
re-establish Dharma. India is the origin country of Dharma and God can come here only to re-establish Dharma.

Raam..!

Sachin

-----------------------------------------------

Sadhak says : India is the country of God. A unique country in its own right. No where else in the world there is such spiritual fragrance as is in India. Yes, all incarnations of God take place ONLY in India because God incarnates to re-establish Dharma. India is the origin country of Dharma and God can come here only to re-establish Dharma.
Saadhaka understands from above garvokti : India is the ONLY country where 23 times Dharma had to be re-established (by 23 incarnations of GOD) because Dharma lost its existence 23 times in India ONLY and in NO OTHER country of the world. What message goes to rest of the world through this garvokti is obvious from the above statement.
Humbly,
Saadhaka

------------------------------------------------
Raam...!

Reply to Humble Sadhak : I am sitting in Satsanga and hence have no
consideration as to what message goes to the rest of world by my views on the
subject. Only care which I need take is to express Truth as I understand that to
be. Yes..India is the ONLY ONLY country where God has taken Avtaars in the past
and would take in future. It is a statement of fact as I believe. If you have
desire to express contrary opinion , I do not, can not and should not object to
it. When I can not, how can you ? Why don't you give reasons as to the opposite
view? Do that, rather than worrying about appeasement or non appeasement of
imaginary constituents !

Yes...If God has taken say 23 Avataras so far, He did so to re-establish Dharma
in that country from which it originated. You are wondering merely because you
do not believe that or have not read Scriptures at all.

SAT (Truth) knows no boundaries ! Yes..India is the country from where Sanatan
Dharma has originated and it will continue to be that country for ever in this
Kalpa and hence all Avataars of God will continue to be in India ONLY ! Where is
'garvokti' here? It is a statement of fact. The shadow of 'garv' is all in your
inequanimous mind/intellect and no where else.

Raam...!

Sachin

-------------------------------------

dear brother, lots of loves and best wishes.
you must first try to undertake the job of study of geeta and other books giving details of Lord Krishnas leelals and universal guidelines. no where in geeta or any other literature lord krishna addresses to any particular group or place . His all speeches are specifically addressed to man in genral and also the utility of His teaching and words are eternally meant for the whole human kind.now your concept of swarg and patala also is well spoken and written in puranas and shastras . these are not the places available on earth they are higher lokas where one can reach with astral bodies. these lokas are to be crossed to reach the final consummation to mohkhshya.
now the second part of your query, why incarnations take place in india only.
dear sir you know that the saints and sages of this country, till date are incessantly pursuing the quest for knowing the secrets of spirit and self realisation,since the beginning of the creation. the same is evident from the well recorded facts and figures and proper documentation. these facts and figures are also well accepted and acknowledged by the philosophers and the masters of science and arts of western world.perhaps you know that even profit Mohammad and Christ have visited India for their spiritual gains. NOW TELL ME WHERE ELSE THE GOD should incarnate as jagat guru.this is a wast subject and needs time and space.

as such i hope this short description helps you to solve your doubt. please feel free to contact me as and when you need some help. ckkaul

--------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Many saints have said about India in perticular, that India (Bharatha Kand) is very condusive for spritual upliftment. One saint has sang a song Gyanapana (Drink Juice of Gyana), in which he says born in India is a blessing to Moksha. More details on request
B.S

----------------------------------------------
Every being in the universe is an incarnation of Parama Atma. We in India have got used to the stories of Dasaavataraara and hypnotized to be;lieve that thes incar have taken place within the boundaries of ndia or Bharat. Remember that Turkey and greee were established byu the sons of Yayaati Turvasu and Yavana. That is why even today Turky is Turukhye and greeks are Ionians. Abraham of the Old Testament was born in Ur Kasepedim, which was in Babylon in those days and now is in Iraq. If you carefully observe the name, it could be a distortion of KASYAPADHAAMA PURA. That is the seat of Kaasyapas. do you know any kaasyapa? Yes HiraNyakaSipa and the avataara Nrusimha. It must have been in what is now Iraq. Also, the story of Rama could have taken place in Yugarit (now in Syrian coast). People of this region venerated samudra raaja tanaya and Asoka vruksha. You the significance of Ashoka vruksha in Raamaayana. With all this evidence, it is not correct to conclude that incarnations were limited to India. Further I noticed a Sadhaka saying India is the land of God. well the fact is every bit of this creation is God's
Krishna

----------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Namaskar!

Sadak Sachin's response seem to be quite satisfying! Definitely, it is the environment which, develops the psychological thinking of human. In India Karma, Rebirth,Ishwara, Avtars....etc have been inseparable part of the culture (from pre-Vedic period) since tens of thousand of years which, is lacking even currently in most parts of the world. Miracles as Lord Krishna, Rama have done have been done in other part of the world as well but, their attribution and interpretation is given differently. For example, Christ is considered son of God while Hazrat Mahmood as messenger of God and the like.......

You may be astonished to know that not all living humans at Lord Krishna's time were aware that Lord Krishna was incarnation of God!!! In fact only his parents Deviki and Vasudev who have seen his Rupa and listened to HIM at the time of birth or then later during Mahabharta Battle, Arjuna who only could see the Virat-Swarupa on getting Devine eyes from Lord Krishna. To rest, Lord Krishna has been just a ordinary powerful human with some extra ordinary powers! Of course, it was however, Bhisham-Pitamaha, who was also aware of actuality.

Concluding, God does take Avtara only in India but takes Avtara anywhere wherever the need is, in the whole of Universe what to speak of other parts of the World! It would be more accurate to tell that whole universe just only a part of God as Lord Krishna described in B-Gita Chapter 11, Last verse!

Narayana, Narayana!

(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

------------------------------------------------

You are right, Hindus thought of Krishna limited to the the then boundaries of India beyond which they might not have much real knowledge. Yes, Krishna is all in all in the Universe whether this is known to all mankind or not. But Krishna is known by different names in different socities / lands: God whose son was Jesus, Prophet's Allah and so on. Do not get confused by the name: human civilisations across the World in deffirent periods were in search of Thatwhich is all in all in the Universe and the Universe.
Basudeb Sen

----------------------------------------------

Our civilization and some others like egyptian are quite ancient.You can analyse certain prayer practices in different religions and observe some similarity.Many time it makes believe that those prayers are altered forms and devised to convenience of sadhaks Avtars happened or not,we do observe His omnipresence in variety of divine applications.The supreme concept of God as Krishna is full of knowledge about his existence, is felt while we peruse Srimad Bhagwat Gita.His Viraat swaroop speaks to us about the variety of forms He exists and can appear from time to time.Although He cannot be explained by we humble humans yet we do feel Him as and when we meditate with dedication.HE IS THE CAUSE OF ALL THAT HAPPENS AND YET HE IS NOT INVOLVED IN HAPPENNINGS.And in kaliedoscope of these happenings we may observe His myriad forms,views.
subhashtewari

-------------------------------------------------
Spiritual fragrance as is in India ? A country where baby girls are murdered and adult girls are raped. Where human index is one of the lowest in the world. A country where Rama threw out his pregnant wife. Ridiculous.
Kindly answer the charges or Unsubscribe.
Alok

--------------------------------------------------

Radhey ! Radhey !!

There has been no Garvokti in Sachin's statement. In fact, India is a divine country. Country of Gods. In India lies the essence of all religions. Where else God can take Avataar? Actually no sadhak is God however humble he may be and it is not correct to presume that God has already reincarnated in the form of Humble Saadhak in the country where he lives at present. Once that is certain, where is objection to Sachin's statement? Else give reasons. Dont say God is Omnipresent. That goes without saying.

Radhey ! Radhey !!

Nisha Chatterji

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Alok,

Your anger and frustration is quite perplexing. But your "charges" are to vague and aimless though :(. You may want to articulate your expectations and disappointments with more clarity and less emotions. If I am right, I see some mix-up between social and spiritual responsibilities ...

Expecting any person or forum to be accountable for your understanding sounds a bit lopsided to me. Don't you think so?! The anger and frustration is rooted in you. You alone know what you feel by recalling RamayaNa or any other incident heard or experienced. Therefore, you should "CHARGE" yourself upon your own understanding for better clarity. That would be useful to you :).

On the other hand, your "charges" on others are like stones thrown into sky. They can fall anywhere … like one that has landed in my hand. Most probably many would fall on your own head! Your attitude spells that whoever has no understanding in agreement to yours should be stupid. One, you have no idea what others understand from RamayaNa or any other literature. Two, what authorizes you to assume that the yardstick you are holding is the right one? Your yardstick is so lopsided with bloated personal belief that it is utterly incapable of measuring anyone else's viewpoint. Three, Do you think there can be any yardstick at all? Can anything be measured as such?? Four, how could social behavior be translated to generic principles and ambience of spirituality and vice versa - have examined carefully? Disagreeing with any viewpoint is perfectly fine. "Charging" others based on your personal beliefs and experiences remains baseless. Expecting others to consider your utterances as "charges" against them is also pointless; how are they accountable for your understanding or misunderstanding?!

You may want to ponder on it further and articulate what exactly your objection is. Make your objection objective so that others can learn from it as well as respond. That would be useful for others, and again for you as well :).

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

---------------------------------------

Gandhar is in Afghanistan.

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

--------------------------------------------------

God incarnates everywhere, but recognized by indians.
Thats why we get Krishna and Rama in India, while other countries get the sons
and the messengers.

Its like only a person with eyesight can see light, not blind.
Its only a devotee who can recognize God, not an athiest.

regds,
rakesh

----------------------------------------------

to girish ji
ref ur ? about y reincarnation is only in india please remember that all religons have different rules beliefs & interpretations 2 help people thru unity of religon ; the object being so that people may bow down to god as that attempts 2 remove the arrogance present in many of us so much so that EVEN THE KING has to bow down to acknowledge the existance & power of god whose blessings he seeks before going into battle.
just as all drops of water form riverluets streams rivers finally enetering the ocean which water evaporates to again form to start the the cycle again which leads us to believe in reincarnation.
however different religons are free to believe in whatever they think & we must not think that hinduism is the most knowledgeable for we have learnt so much in the fields of medicine,science increasinng our food production etc from the western world whose development was was partly due to their religon
your greatese gift of the very fact that you asked ur question was given u by the west because indians never questioned the meaning of AUM or the swastika nor any belief or ritual that the pandits translated to them the meaning from sanskrit
keep it up & question every thing till u r satisfied
henceforth i will call u GIR-ISH the LION
balbir singh
-------------------------------------------------
Punarjanma … Avataara … THE TRUTH …

Matter-energy clusters merge and separate perpetually only for one reason - TO MAINTAIN EQUILLIBRIUM! There is no exception no matter how specific clusters are identified as - soil, water, air, plants, animals, humans, planets, galaxies … Everything is recycled to reform the universal appearance in order to preserve its integral presence AS IS and AS EVER. Humans, having developed extraordinary (and, unnecessary!) affinity to their specific forms, would claim some special existence amongst the rest. But, humans are no more or less than any being or thing in this universe ... all mortal beings, including the humans, are recycled just like all these plants to be re-born in variant forms as dictated by the nature around ... again and again ...

|| Sasyamiva pachyate martyah sasyamivaajaayate punah ||

One who is dictated by the limitations of one's intellect would get fascinated by some particular pairs of such mergers and separations in order to define the span of time and space bound between the two events as "a life". One who dictates one's intellect with such limited perceptions would isolate such a span from the rest to believe as if the span perceived is "the life" the associated entity possessed. ONLY FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE birth and death do mean something. So are their derivatives such as rebirth (Punarjanma) and re-incarnation (Avataara).

The paradox in human appreciation of life is … they never appreciate the same recycling process within the identified span of one's own life … but, claim heavily how the fellow is subjected to recycling from "one" span or life to "another" … Some take a helpless attitude that one will be recycled as per their deeds (Karma) and some take a command to claim that one can dictate what one would be in the next life. The helpless recycling is often called "re-birth" or Punarjanma. The seemingly "voluntary" action to take a form is often called "re-incarnation" or "Avataara".

Really speaking, all matter-energy clusters (Prajaah) are subjected perpetual morphing (Yagnya) - apparently random in macroscopic or gross sense and very specific in microscopic or elementary sense. No one can dictate The Yagnya. Nobody could steer the gross changes in the world in any certain fashion - be it death of a human body or its path beyond or a planet or anything else. At the same time, nobody can change the elemental characteristics either - no one can dictate Hydrogen to combine with Oxygen to make steel! The un-yielding infinitude of elemental behavior seeks perpetual equilibrium amongst itself to BE ... to just BE! Any meaning projected on Yagnya is just a wishful belief one generates within one's perception!! Therefore, one can become anything as well as nothing at all after death ...

Yonimanye prapadyante shareerattvaaya dehinah |

SthaaNumanye'nusanyanti yathaa karma yathaa shrutam ||

Therefore, if one insists, rebirth is real … it IS real as of NOW as EVER … helpless recycling is all one can ride as long as the perception remains! If one insists that God takes Avataara to sustain equilibrium in existence … it IS real as of NOW and as EVER ... without such a force cycling through all the apparent recycling, how can there be harmony across the diverse appearances the matter-energy clusters morphs itself into?! How can any thing can remain integral to whatever it IS without THAT??!!

If one transcends the limitations of one's intellect ... how can there be any life isolated in this universe?! ... how can there be any disconnect between any lives ever??!! ... HOW CAN THERE BE ANYTHING BUT THAT AS IS AND AS EVER???!!! ... Then ... how can there be any recycling at all? ... what is birth and what is death?? … how can there be any re-birth or re-incarnation???

Does it matter who made the observations and how they were made?! TRUTH remains AS IS and AS EVER irrespective of who perceives it and when, where and how IT is perceived! Can Gravity be different because of Newton's interpretation; did the apples start falling down differently??!! Can the matter-energy relation be limited to whatever an Einstein says???!!! THE TRUTH REMAINS AS IS and AS EVER. No one can dictate it in any way. When and where there was no recycling of matter and energy? When and where there could be anything that sustains itself without THAT?? How can there be any nows and thens, heres and theres, when ALL remain THAT ALL-PERVASIVE TRUTH as IS and as EVER???

Please do not try to imagine some lines of boundaries in terms of space, time, emotions, etc. in an attempt to limit THAT! Of course, NOTHING happens to THAT ... but, it would be a great loss for you though ...

Iha chedavedeetatha satyam (pratibodham amritam) asti na chedihaavedeen mahatee vinashTih | Bhooteshu bhooteshu vichitya dheerah pretyaasmaallokaan amritaa bhavanti ||

The wise ones realizing the ALL-INCLUSIVE PRESENCE of the ALL-EXCLUSIVE TRUTH would erase the notional lines of separation and merger drawn within one's imagination to BE THAT as IS and as EVER. It ought to be realized HERE and NOW. Else, it is a great loss to one who doesn't. How can who fails to understand something while alive (with all the faculties intact) as of now and here can ever fathom the same after death (when all the faculties are also disseminated)???!!! ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------

Dear Gita-Talk member,

Reincarnations take place all over the globe. The
science is picking up data where ever it can find it
to prove it or disprove the concept of "karma and
reincarnation". The present trend supports the idea
of karma and reincarnation.

Good Luck! Bye!
Notesh Otes

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[gita-talk] Re: The Bhagavad Gita - Daily Message - 7-9

 

Shree Hari 


II  7:9  II

 

punyo gandhah prthivyâm ca tejascâsmi vibhâvasau

jeevanam sarvabhootesu tapascâsmi tapasvisu (Gita 7:9)

 

In the earth, I am the fragrance, in the fire, I am the brilliance, in all beings, I am the life force, in the ascetics. I am the austerity.  (Gita 7:9)

Comment:  Fragrance and earth, brilliance and fire, life-force and beings, austerity and ascetic, these all in all the cause (means, instrument, purpose) and the activity, are only Bhagwân




II 7:8 II

rasohamapsu kaunteya prabhâsmi sasisooryayoh
pranavah sarvavedesu sabdah khe paurusam nrsu (Gita 7:8)

O son of Kunti! I am the taste in water, I am the radiance in the moon and the sun; I am the sacred syllable Om, in the Vedas, the sound in the space and in the manliness of men, it is Me only! 

Comment - 

In the entire creation, only Bhagwân (God) is the cause (kâran), and only Bhagwân (God) is the action (kârya). From that perspective, both water and sapidity, radiance and the moon, Om and the Vedas, Sound and space (ether), man and his manliness (vigour) - these all-in-all, i.e. both cause and activity are only Bhagwân.

From "Gita Prabodhani" in hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji


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