Shree Hari Ram Ram
Due to the excessive length of this thread and lengthy postings, we now bring closure to the Karma discussion. If further interest, we can begin another thread. PLEASE BE BRIEF. The lengthy postings often make it difficult to grasp the essence and can also confuse the questioner.
Thank you, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
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Hare Krishna,
Can you help me understand Karma?
Why is it that Africa, a continent so rich in resources are always suffering, people dying of hunger, disease, and the suffering does not end. Slavery, colonial atrocity by the Europeans, and now whenever any nation tries to become strong, than the European/Americans will put them down. Gaddafi wanted to create a Gold Dinar > he is dead because as I see it that would have ended the American supremacy.........
In my view, the Western countries have committed so many atrocities......... continue to do so, yet why is Karma not catching up?
Please help me.......... this is one question that i have yet to find an answer.
Jay
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Ram Ram
Dear Jay,
You should read Sadhak-Sanjivani Chapter 18 verse 12 for understanding karma. The explanation is also published under a book titled 'Karma-Rahasya'.
http://www.sadhaksanjivani.com/
Thanks,
Varun
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Our body is made up from matter while our soul is promoted by our karma.In the lucky ones their is spontaneous credit/debit while others pile up for analysis by dharmraj( as per our religious concepts).In lucky or devouts or decent people the way to moksha is rendered clearance while uncompatible karma people have to go through other rounds to cleanse their karma entity.The manav yoni is thus said to be blessed for improving performance.
subhashtewari
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Sadhak says,"In my view, the Western countries have committed so many atrocities......... continue to do so, yet why is Karma not catching up?"
And in Saadhaka's view : Karma is catching up as per Natural Law. Who will answer to this Question? Why Krishna witnessed so many atrocities done by Kauravas? Who is at present more Powerful than what Krishna was at that time? Natural Law of Karma is easy to understand ONLY by accepting it [NOT by disapproving it].
Humbly,
Saadhaka
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Books are available by name 'Karma Siddhantam' (Theory Of Karma). Very Very Popular Book. Search on the net, and read or listen.
Regards
Praveen
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Hari Om
What is the surest method of the destruction/downfall of any society/country/ Caste ? Kill animals and do not let the new humans take birth ! There can not be a more certain method than this. It serves all that is required for mass calamities and destruction. In India, this phenomena is increasing with astounding volumes. Hindus soon will find themselves in minority. Who will rule us then? Democratic set up: One person , one vote. Who will rule Hindus?
Raw statistics suggest that if there are 1000 people today with 2 children each. These 1000 people will reduce to 331 after 30 years. After 60 years they will reduce to 186 and after 150 years it will remain only 92. When population is very low, people can not safeguard them from natural calamities, earthquacks, cyclones, enemies etc and accordingly they lose their very existence. The CASTE WHICH DOES BIRTH CONTROL , ACTUALLY COMMITS SUICIDE.
Low population already, and if war takes place? An atom bomb here or there? Consider its impact on population.
From political point of view if you consider, then population increase is very important there. Population decline means decline of political power. After world war, it was realised that in western countries with population decline, political power also declined. Hence those countries launched a drive for population increase. They also started forcing eastern countries to control their population. Precisely therefore, developing nations are sanctioned loans by World Bank etc with a condition that reduce your population. In due course, debt ridden country with little population- conquered !!
Democratic set up ! Today's poll system has direct co-relation with population. According to this system 100 stupids can beat 99 intelligents (while actually 100 stupids can not conquer even one intelligent) THINK ! Today you have how many stupids and how many intelligent? Whether learned persons are more or illiterates are more? Good people are more or wicked are more? Honest are more or dishonest are more? Whoever has more population will win and rule. Who will rule Hindus in India?
Whoever gets more votes rules..irrespective of his svabhaav and sanskaars. Totally incompetent person can sit over the highest post. Scriptures say: Where unworshipable gets worshiped , and those worthy of worship get disrespected, 3 things happen there - 1 Famine 2 Fear of robbers and thieves 3 Death/destruction ( Skanda Puran MK 3/48) . If you cross limit, the limit of Prakruti also gets breached and that causes famine, excessive rains, earth quakes, cyclones, floods etc. Already low population will increase or decrease?
When you do birth control and kill animals and cut trees..Prakruti gets annoyed hugely and then natural calamities result. Where is need then for agriculture produce? Humans have started eating animals. Where is need for food grains ? Where is need for grass when there are no animals? Why then rains should come? If you have one or two children , who will get enrolled in Army? Who will constitute army ? How the country will be defended? From where labour will come ? From where scientists will get born? From where doctors will come? From where artists will come? If a couple has one child who will do what? Will he join army or take care of family sitting indoors or do business or become doctor or become scientist? From where Saints and Sages will come? Eat cows. From where milk will come ? Petrol reserves will end shortly. From where bullocks will come to do farming ? Humans will have eaten them away already ! Kill girls in the womb !! What will happen in future? Where will males get married ?
What will be the state of this great nation and Hindus in times to come?
THINK , Divine Sadhaks, think.
To be contd...!
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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Dear Sadhaks
It appears that Jay seem to see Karma in superficial mannner from leftists and Islamist perspective. The fact that Africans, particularly North Africans mostly Muslims, treat animals s very harshly seem to escape his concept of fairness of Karma.. I have seen on TV donkeys overloaded with heavy burdens and big men riding weak donkeys in Africa. Karma has to take into account misery inflicted by men on other creatures too. As according to Karma theory every creature has soul and mistreating and exploiting animals is BAD KARMA.
As I understand, Gaddafi himself trecherously murdered the king of Libya, to whom had sworned to be loyal. So he deserved what he got.
According to me, West will also pay for it's animal farms in which Cows, Pigs, Chickens and other animals are grossly mistreated. Loving dogs is not going to save them. Claimming that animals do not soul is simply a self serving logic, under the grab of religious sanctions.
Harry Desai
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Radhey ! Radhey !!
The terminology used in Gita is unique and can not be understood adopting the
normal ways. The words have been used there quite inter changeably and there is
a real depth behind the same (after all it is vaani of Bhagwaan). Gita is
entitled to do that because from Gita only the nectar concepts like 'Vasudev
Sarvam' emerge. But for sadhaks to understand it, a different approach is
needed. You can't read Gita as you read some worldly statute book. In a worldly
statute book, section 2 is normally used for 'definitions' where specific
meanings are assigned to specific words. No such section 2 is there in Gita. You
have to derive the meaning of individual word by cross references and by
ensuring that meaning derived is not contradictory...whatever the letters of the
word be. Hence in order to understand the meaning of 'daiva' used in 18:14,
reading of 'adhideva' used in 8:4 type of effort is bound to produce most
hilarious results...what to talk when we lift
word 'deva' from another scripture and that too from the bhakti scripture viz
Ramcharitmanas !! It is certainly not such an easy task. Yes, if you want
entertaining results, then you can also interprete the meaning of 'daiva' by
taking the meaning of 'adhideva' in 8:4 and doubling the stature of element
referred there ( double because in 'adhideva'there is 'adha'(half)'daiv'
And hence full 'daiva' must be 2 times thereof) ! Similarly, intellect may also
decide to assign the meaning of 'daiva' to be Supreme Controller merely because
in BG 7:14, the term 'daivy' is used for Prakruti/Maya and Supreme Controller is
also Mayapati/ the owner of Prakruti. But Gita is beyond such intellectual
surmises and mental itchings. Merely because Lord says maya to be 'mine', Gita
does not call Mayapati to be SAGUNA . It may call Him NIRGUNA also and beyond
all Gunas viz Gunateet also.
In summary, the way suggested is CERTAINLY not the way at all to interprete
Gita. Gita is a VILAKSHAN (typical, special) Scripture. It can dare to to use
term 'Ishwar' for Jeevas also; it can dare to use the word Jagat for Jeevas
also..the word karma for activity also and so on..!
Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj understood such difficulties which ordinary readers
experience in understanding Gita and possibility of funny interpretations
arising therefrom and hence wrote an astonishing book by the name Gita Darpan
where He listed out words and stated which word is to be used for what meaning
in Gita. Where the word Ishwar means Supreme Lord, where the same word means
Jeeva etc. There are reasons behind everything and it is an amazing experience
when you come to know of those reasons. I am sure such wisdom of assigning
correct meaning to a word can come only in extra ordinary persons/siddhas/
Saints/Yogis only..it is beyond ordinary people whatever be their intellectual
level. Hence, when I read Gita, I just read SS free from all confusions, all
searchings, all cross verifications...just as an adpoted child gets all the
wealth of his adopting parents effortlessly.
Radhey ! Radhey !!
Nisha Chatterji
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Dear sadhaks
Every response here is very valuable. I am thankful to the questioner and all the respondents.
Ever since this discussion on karma started, there is this question coming to my mind, "the women who are facing great degree of violence, were they men in previous lives who meted out violence on women( who are men now) and that their karma is making them go through this suffering?" It may not be exactly true. Pujya Vyasji I agree with your misusage to terms as in family welfare, dharma nirapekshata, etc. But I have a reservation. Women's liberation strives to support women to understand their true nature as a female human being and also lead a violence free life. Shameless conduct is not women's liberation. I am sorry. Also, the concept of Gruha Lakshmi is medieval period concept. It is not vedic or sanatan. The "good woman" construct to an extent is also tampering with nature. Many a time women go out to work out of compulsion not only of situations but because of explicit pressure by in-laws, husband and very rarely by parents also. Their challenge is to discover liberation not at the cost of their kins but along with them. This is extremely tough. But thanks to satsangas in the environment it is not impossible.
Humbly
Veena
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Hari SharaNam,
Dear VyasJi, you may want to check the explanation of the words "DAIVEE" (7/14, 9/13, 16/5) & "ADHI-DAIVA" (8/4) by SwamiJi in SS to understand the word "DAIVA" better. The following lines of "Sri Ram Charit Manas" can also help you to have a better understanding of that word.
NAATH DAIVA KAR KAVAN BHAROSAA | SOKSHIYA SINDHU KARIYA MAN ROSAA ||
KAADAR MAN KAHAN EK ADHAARAA | DAIVA DAIVA AALASI PUKAARAA || (Sundar Kand 51/3-4)
P.S. I may not have access to computer for few days to respond you. But, I do not think I need to add anything more on this.
May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey
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From your note after this question, it appears you understand by Karma the actions of past which should lead to good tidings or bad sufferings to the doer. I am afraid I cannot agree with that. Karma is action. We have to go into the details of Gita.
First in chapter 3, the inevitability of action or Karma is elucidated. Karma Brahma udbhavam, Brahma akshara samudbhavam. Karma is produced by Prakriti (here Brahma mean and more precisely, the body made of Prakriti.s Prakriti or Nature consisting of several factors, we see or feel), further action is born as Akshara that is Atma is blended with Brahma - Prakriti, or more precisely with the body made of Prakriti. When an Atma enters a body, it becomes Jeeva or Purusha and this Prakriti is the instigator of Action. Kaary kaarana kartritve Hetuh prakritih ucyate (ch. 13). Atma as such does not do any Karma but tolerates the effects of action as long as it is not mystified by the feeling that it is the body.
Again in chapter 8, Karma is unequivocally defined "Bhoota bhaava udbhava karo karma samgjitah". Action or acts which are intended to the growth and welfare of fellow beings is Karma. For the sustenance of the body and of universe actions are essential. An act done with that and that alone as the goal are Karma that do not stick or stain the Atma.
In case of Western countries, the rulers do what they do or did as acts of welfare of their people.No doubt they are short sighted. Then, we must also look at Lockerbie, the masacres in the name of God, the 9/11, 26/11 etc. They cannot go unpunished. The Libyan, Egypt or Bahrain's tragedies are effects of their own Karma. West will suffer. India is suffering its Karma of dubbing Sanaatana dharma into a religion called Hinduism. Are we not?
krishna
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Hari Om
Neetishji ! It is my duty to state the correct interpretation of Holy Gita in this Divine Gita Talk Forum and the correct interpretation is that which is free from any contradictions from other verses of Gita and from other Scriptures. That is the only yardstick available to me/chosen by me. Any interpretation other than 'sanskaars' invokes contradiction with other verses... ! The Q of my being in agreement with interpretations such as "unseen" etc does not arise. This Forum is dedicated to the teachings of Swamiji and on this fact I do not have any doubt. You may agree with all interpretations of Gita as per list given by you, but I can not, unless they fit into my aforesaid yardstick.
I noticed the words 'divine controlled' referred by you. I considered them also but disregarded them for the purposes of 18:14 ! I can not pay regard to 'divine control' there by any logic or rationale. Jeeva has been given certain independent powers , including right to act and God can not be a party to those acts. There are verses which clearly reflect His non-indulgence/non-control as well as regarding independence of Jeeva. BG 18:14 is clearly pertaining to Jeeva.
BG 7:22 referred by you is not about causes of Karma as is 18:14 but is about 'Karma phala'. It is about 'result' ONLY and not about 'swabhaav/sanskaar/result' as stated by you. If you read SS on 7:22, you will ALSO find that there also the "action" is by Devatas only (of granting your wish), the Lord has merely said regarding His Laws operating through Devatas. He remains non doer here too.
If you consider 'His control' in Jeeva's Karma, He will have to be blamed for sins of Jeeva. Moreover it will be in a direct contradiction with 5:14 ! What more clarity do you need than 5:14 where 'svabhav' is clearly stated to be cause, and Supreme is clearly denying His indulgence in a 'pravrutti' of Jeeva?
There is no need for me to travel beyond Prakruti , once I am clear that all 'activities' take place under the regime of Prakruti, this being the fundamental law. Why should I consider divine control and why not Prakruti control, when I am interpreting a verse regarding Karma by Jeeva...and more so when I am aware that Jeeva necessarily functions under control of Prakruti ? Jagdish does not !
Further, Lord Himself has stated in Gita - KNOW ME TO BE NON DOER- BG 4: 13/14 ! Hence I can not indulge Him or Pure Self (Both Purusha and Purushottam) in the interpretation of BG Verse 18:14. How can I call Him a 'doer' when He categorically says: Know Me to be a non-doer ?
What else did I write except that "When even 'Purusha' (Self/soul) is not a doer , where is the question of Purushottam (Supreme Lord) being a doer ?". Immediately thereafter I referred 5:14! That is all I wrote. What is wrong there? How it is only a part of integral truth ? It is wholly truth. When you will get equanimous, you will not find any fault in my above statement.
As regards your getting surprised over Paramatma being inactive, I actually never said so. That is your personal creation. Read again my above statement. Is there no difference between a 'non-doer' and 'inactive' at 'intellectualists' level when Holy Gita verse is under reference ? Though I have quoted your words here, believe me I do not consider myself to be 'intellectual' at all. I am sadhak. Every 'activity' is not 'Karma' - it is Gita teaching you !
As regards the list of verses depicting 'actions by Him' so laboriously compiled and appended, please note Gita classifies 'His Karmas' in a separate categories altogether as 'Divya Karmas' (Leela), Visarga karmas and Akhil Karmas etc and when we talk of 'Karmas' under 18:14 we have to talk of 'Karmas' other than Karmas done by God, because in 18:14 Jeeva's karma are referred.
Actually, in your original post under reference, you went on to link your words 'divine controlled' with 'Supreme Controller' ! You even stated that without knowing the Supreme , you can not understand segment 'Daiva' and referred 7:29/30. Now in my terminology there is no difference between 'Supreme Lord' and 'Supreme Controller' , more so when Supreme Lord only is referred to in 7:29/30 also . How does some one being 'intellectualist' or not matter in calling 'Supreme Controller' and 'Supreme Lord' in same sense?
By the way, even in reference to those Divya Karma/visarga karmas/akhil karmas , He is NOT 'doer' as per other Scriptures ! It is said in Sankhya Pravachan Bhasya 96 -
NIRICCHE SANSATHITE RATNE YATHA LOHAH PRAVARTATE ! SATTA MATREN DEVEN TATHA CHAYAM JAGAJJANAH !!
JUST AS: By mere existence (proximity) of desire less magnate, iron gets activated SIMILARLY : By 'Satta matra' (mere existence ) Brahma , the Jagat gets created ..! (by mere proximity) !!
Can you call a magnate to be 'doer' merely because iron gets activated due to its proximity?
The above also gets confirmed by many verses of Gita and by Swamiji categorically - read His comments under SS/8:3. This also addresses your reference of "BHOOTBHAVOD BHAVAKARO VISARGA KARMA SANGITAH - 8/1" ! It is 8/3 actually. It is another category 'visarga karma' - it is tyaag (renunciation) of stability in an element which is fixed/immovable ! It is not action by Lord, it is His Sankalpa. By His Sankalpa, due to the carried forward Karmas, Jeevas take birth. Lord remains non doer there also.
You are unfair totally in alleging that I tried to justify my views in the name of Swamiji/SS. Actually and quite clearly you did precisely that when you drafted last sentence of your latest posting and used Swamiji's name wrongly. You ignored completely His repeated references of terms like akarma / aadi karma /akarta/ sankalpa etc and reference of 4:13 mentioned in 8/3 commentary. Swamiji never used term 'Lord's Karma' - he used 'Aadi Karma' ! Swamiji never 'indicated' KARMA , he indicated just the reverse.. Akarma. Swamiji never stated Lord to be 'doer'. He stated Him to be 'non doer' (Akarta) ! I understood as soon as I saw you typing Karma in capital letters and use of word 'indicated' before 'Lord's KARMA' by you in your last sentence. Read again His comments under 8:3 and foot note under that. You will agree that it is you who used His name and SS wrongly.. Never me.
I am a sadhak, I too had an option to choose from so many commentaries. But once I chose Swamiji , there after it was only surrender. This you have yet to do. Saints have said:
NA KUCHH HAM HANS KE SEEKHE HAI, NA KUCHH HAM ROKE SEEKHE HAI ! AGAR THODA KUCHH SEEKHE HAIN, TO KISI KE HOKE SEEKHE HAIN !!
Neither we have learnt anything by laughing nor by crying. Whatever little we have learnt, we have learnt because we have 'become' of some one.
That some one for me is Swamiji/ Sadhak Sanjeevani. That is the correct way of reading/understanding Gita also.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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Radhey ! Radhey !!
One should never read Gita or try to understand it using 'intellect' ! Said Swamiji: For Intellectuals, Gita becomes a grand riddle. There are so many cross references, so much cross verification necessary..! Intellect is limited, the bhavas of Gita are unlimited. Gita is a deep scripture.You must surrender to it and then read. Else you will keep struggling whole of your life in just arriving at funny interpretations only. Swamiji did not write Sadhak Sanjeevani(SS)
keeping 'Vidvata' (intellectual capacity) in vision, He wrote it keeping sadhaks in vision. No commentary in this world is as error free, as contradiction free, as reconciling and clear as is Sadhak Sanjeevani. By mere reading of SS, you can be emancipated. Even very wise Sadhus confessed to Swamiji that mere reading of SS is enough for any sadhak of any yoga.
EKE SAADHE SAB SADHE, SAB SAADHE SAB JAAY !! If one targets one
object (SS) , they have targetted all. Reg Visarga Karma, read carefully SS- 8/3.
Swamiji has repeatedly stated Supreme to be non-doer- AKARTA and the Visarga Karma to be AKARMA.He never used the word 'Lord's Karma', He used to denote that as 'Aadi Karma'! He never suggested a doership or even action by God, He said by His sankalpa, the creation takes place.He also referred to 4/13 in His commentary under 8/3 to emphasise non-doership of God.You are not right in stating that Swamiji called Visarga Karma to be a Karma or Lord's Karma.Read SS
slowly and carefully.
Being good readers of Gita, let us consider changing this 'I am
intellectual' aham to 'I am sadhak'aham and read Gita a fresh by surrendering to it. Poor intellect can not decipher out its own cause, how can it grasp Shrimad Bhagwadgita?
Radhey ! Radhey !!
Nisha Chatterji
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Dear Vyasji and fellow sadhaks,
With due respect to all i just want to clarify that i am not impressed at all by
western nations more than i am impressed by mother India. God had been kind on
me and provided me with all opportunities in India itself that i din't have to
go to America. Thanks to the almighty and all my gurus.
Every nation has things to learn from. Things to learn from success and things
to learn from failures. I am listing the name of planets in my posts because
jyotish is also part of vedas and help in looking at the things from dharma
perspective. Each planet reflects a value system a quality that all of us want
to live by.
God shani represents the value "justice in society", hardwork and "nishkaam
karma". God shani has treated lord krishna as his ishta deva and its mentioned
in all the jyotish scriptures. Shani is also known as Krishna. His colour is
blacker than coal (attracts all the light and reflect nothing). Hence krishna or
attraction.
According to my understanding, the Varna system is defined also in jyotish but not by the family one is born into,
but by the qualities one is born with. Literature were correct in specifying
those. But question is that whether as a society we were able to do justice with
varna system. Didn't we as a society abused it and divided the society as per
the family one gets born with. Son of brahmin only become brahmin. This is not
true as per jyotish. A brahmin quality boy can be born to a shudra parent. Not
merely politicians, but as a society we have completely failed in understanding
and applying the concept of varna system. Even today untouchability is practiced
in greater part of India. Even today there are temples which don't allow woman
and shudras. Even today people don't want to do inter-caste marriages. Whats all
this if not a shame for society.
Do anyone think that lord of justice and equity in this material world (shani
deva who work at pleasure of the supreme god krishna/ram/or any name you can
think of) would be happy with this kind of society which have twisted the varna
concept in such a crooked manner?
Can we be more integrated, can we pull together masses (assuming 30% shudras in
society), can we draw from the talent lying latenet in this huge section of
society. Why would they work in favour of brahmins & maharajas instead of
englishmen who offered them better treatment?
Western societies are least likely to go down the tube in near future as they
are more integrated, more just in distribution of wealth and resources and these
societies don't strip a particular section of society of all opportunities in
such a organized way the way we hindus have done in last 2000 years.
The day western societies/their governments start discriminating among its
people or section of people like we still are doing in India, they would also
move down. Till then cycles of economic recession and growth, cycles of battles
and wars will continue without impacting their supremacy in general.
regds,
rakesh
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It seems that underlying beliefs of the questioner are that no country
or society should suffer if they have plenty of natural resources, that there must be reason if they do suffer, that this reason must be some bad behaviour of some other societies and finally Gita's Karma
philosiphy is unable to explain thephenomenon.
It is better first the understand these underlying beliefs. First,
there is no reason to expect a nation not to suffer because they have
plentiful natural resources. There may not be any justification for
this. The natural resources are not created by the African nation and
therefore there is no autmatic right of the Africans to gain from
exploiting the natural resources. If some others nationals exploit them and gain the Africans by default will not have the advantage of using the natural resources to their advantage. The reason is clear why Africans suffer. They could not, did not and were not allowed by some others to use the Africans to use naturalresources of the advantage of Africans.
Second, even if the reason we have put up in the previous sentence,
this reason is not really a reason. We have to go further down to find reason why the Africans could not , did not or were not allowed by others to use the locally available resources to their advantage. So, the reasoning so far has not been scientific enough to give us the
Truth. One has to make further efforts to find the real and ultimate
reason. Many species like Dinoserous have gone extinct. Why? Because of some natural calamity or disease or non-availabilty of food. But we must know what is the reason behind natural calamity, disease or
non-availability of adequate food. Unless we pursue the ultimate
reason, we are just being smart but not honest in seeking the Truth.
Third, the reason that Europeans has cause the sufferring to Africans,
is not the ultimate knowledge to explain the phenomenon. We must know
why the Europeans do what they did resulting in Africans being poor and sufferrers despite plenty of rich natural resources. We can stop
scientific analysis just arbitraily. We must know what cause the
so-called bad behaviour of the Europeans resulting in sufferring by the Africans.
Fourth, the expectation that Karma principle will explain any question/ phenomenon is justified when we apply the principle consistently and seek to know the ultimate Truth. Only when a person has the vigour and patience to apply the Karma principle to search for the Ultimate Truth will the Karma principle become understood. Without such scientific endeavour we can not understand the priciple of Karma.
Now, just to make an elaboration of the Karma principle to help us
proceed further in seekingthe Truth, some clues may be pointed out.
Karma principle says that everything happens because of a cause or a set of causes. The causes themselves can be the result of certain other causes and this goes on. That I am responding to the question through the Internet cannot be explained fully by saying that Internet has been discovered, I happen to know English, some people happen to think about starting a google group and so on. We must know first what caused these happenings. If we pursue these sequence of causes to preceeding causes for long we may ultimately come to the conclusion that no cause has ever acted on its own to take credit or discredit for the effects/consequences. We also come to realize that often they same causes/ factors led to different types of consequences. Therefore Karma priciple suggests that whatever action we do, we should not be attached to consequences of our actions. For actions are not really ours, we act the way we do because of our inherent properties to respond to different external environment conditions emerging on which we may generally have no control.
If we accept even these little clues from the Karma principle, we would tend to accept that any phenomenon or incident happens because they were destined to happen because of the dynamic interplay of forces operating in the environment. We cannot change the past. If we know that Europeans or some others are still creating problems, we could decide to do such things that would stop this exploitation of African resources for not benefitting the Africans. But we must remember that, whatever action we take need to guarantee that the intended consequences will result.
The interpretation that 'I did bad things and therefore I am
sufferring' is too naive a Statement to describe the principle of Karma.
Basudeb Sen
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Dear Ones, Namaste!
Another take on this series of questions!
You ask: Why is it that Africa, a continent so rich in resources are always suffering, people dying of hunger, disease, and the suffering does not end.
Because a country rich in resources requires people to work hard to bring them into use. The reason is by so doing, masses can get jobs, make living, raise family, all in pursuits of happiness, peace and harmony while living a Life of righteousness.
Swamiji often reminds us that Karma can bring about situations around us but cannot make us necessarily suffer!
That means to avoid suffering due to lack of food, housing, clothing etc we need to work hard. We need to have honest people in Government, industries, businesses who would look after common welfare! This seems to be absent in many countries. Corruption at the level of common people and high up in governments keeps people suffering. This environment produces more Karma which perpetuates the same environment!
In western countries people work hard to address such issues. Of course they have different problems causing suffering due to lack of inner satisfaction as a result of pleasuring beyond the capacity of body-senses-mind-intellect.
We cannot say that Western world has committed atrocities to gain supremacy over other countries! The best way to look at this is that Mass Karma plays out a role by getting rid of corrupt dictators, governments, those who treat women as toys, mass murders, terrorists, etc by helping people of those countries! History is full of such examples and is happening right now in the world! We are becoming more and more Global citizens rather than individual nations! It is as though, "Collective Thinking" as Karma is constantly working in the background to correct the Global situation to keep a balance required for optimal use of resources!
As I see it, when God is understood in all its implicit aspects, Karma is understood as His Just and benevolent Law of Governance of entire Cosmos, not just one vs other!
We are all his children playing games, winning, losing, laughing, crying, getting hurt, hurting etc etc and when complain He says "Nothing personal" my child!
Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt
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Hari Om
Coming to original Q by Sadhak Jay, let me refer to India. It is a fact that after INDEPENDENCE (1947) there has been a remarkable down fall of the country -Be it from perspective of Dharma or Conduct or Body or Sentiments of heart or Character or Sheel (svabhav/inherent nature) - from all perspectives. India had a lot of ancient arts, knowledge before, but all of that are getting destroyed. Never before such fast and massive value deterioration took place. Our talking frequently about 'developed nations' and drawing comparison with them itself suggests we have started feeling that English Rule on India was better ...how shameful !! How much efforts were made to gain independence, how many martyrs...this is the result !
But when this topic has been selected by Divine Moderators of this selfless GT Talk Forum dedicated to Holy Gita, Sanatan Dharma and to one of the greatest Saints of all time of Sanatan Dharma- Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj...it becomes our duty to identify the causes of such massive down fall and such identification only can pave way for correction. Swamiji too ruefully acknowledged few very destructive tendencies in this great country, which have direct co-relation with the present state of this country. Sadhak Jay can find answers of his Q also.. Sadhak Rakesh too!
We are flouting/ tampering with the Laws of Nature and in the areas of her operations (jurisdiction) rather too much and in the process we making the Prakruti annoyed. Huge repercussions follow when you enter the prohibited areas- the areas where you , as a human, have no role...! Any way ..we shall deal with this later on.
Let us first state 'the present state' -
India has huge natural resources and assets. But instead of making 'good utilisation' of it, we are 'destroying' it. Not only that such 'destruction' is being termed/perceived/understood/touted as 'production' !!! Killing of animals is stated as 'production of meat' !
A 'mahapaap' (highest possible sin) like abortion and destruction of procreation power of human is called ' Family welfare' !!! There is a special Minister in the Government called 'Family Welfare Minister' ...Ha !
The 'maryaada-naash' (crossing of limits) and notorious/shameless conduct by females is seen as 'women's liberation' ! Earlier, females used to manage homes, remain indoors and were called 'Gruha-laxmis' and owner of homes (Come on- Sadhak Rakesh- you like word 'Laxmi' very much- here is a genuine clue to you as regards Her ) , NOW , she is out doing jobs and accepting slavery of many bosses and this acceptance is called - 'Independence of Women' !!!
The following of Dharma is seen as 'sampradayikata' ( religious rigidity). Non following of dharma (anti-dharma) is called 'dharma-nirapekshata'- (secularism) ! The bribe paid for getting admission in school/college is known as 'donation' !!!
THUS, the 'dependence' is seen as 'independence' ! The 'moral de-gradation' is called 'progress' ! 'Animalhood' is seen as symptom of 'humanity' ! What does this mean? This means - VINAASH KAALE VIPREET BUDDHIH (At the time of destruction, intellect gets reverse) !!
Read now : Gita 18:32- and appreciate as to when and how such intellect arises and why.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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Such questions will keep bothering us till the time focus is on happenings in the world outside...
These questions dissolve/ disappear as we focus on the self/inner world....and understand the larger picture.... In fact, one feels stupid...since these become meaningless at higher levels of consciousness....
Sushil Jain
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Dear sadaks,
Within the family itself there are selfishness- court cases- killing- cheating- children misbehavior etc. Then in our country almost we are at edge of plundering whole wealth of India. Some part of India woman was sold for only Rs 1000/= (Published in Yahoo). I can see Nepal people in plenty are migrated to Chennai and working in shabby condition.Total disgrace to certain swamijies misusing people.In Vivekachdamani- definition of Sat Guru given for our benefit. Sat Guru One who does not amass trust- does not have more than 3 pure cotton robes- speaks only about Bharmam (Does not speak of country- people- planting tress)- teaches Yoga- never gets angry- DOES NOT KEEP ANYTHING FROM FOOD GRAIN TO MONEY FOR NEXT DAY. The concept is a Sat Guru is a realized one- who leaves all responsibilities for him to live to GOD and as such he does not preserve anything. Only if Sadaks know this, then we will not be pray to misleading Swamijies. Now a days- easy to identify. Swamiji wearing gold ring- using fine polished robes- prefers costly car- wants most comfortable place to stay on etc. They clearly study sastras, Geetha, Puranas, etc and are best lecturers not teachers.
Bribe is totally official. But our country is better compared to Africa. But our country is walking towards present situation of Africa. This means collapse of Dharma and growth of sins. Example of Karma effect:- 1) Durva child who saw Sri Visnu- was Bhramin in previous birth working under a king and desired for wealth. His Sat Bhramanism gave dharshan of Sri Vishnu and a minor portion of desire on wealth gave birth as king son. Jada Bharath story all know. From ant to human- place of birth- birth to which parents etc are clearly said in Geetha. Now by looking and feeling on Africa, you desire and compassion grows and it becomes VASANA. Then you have to be born in Africa as reformer. When you will be born as reformer- you will accumulate fresh desires based on that life and one more birth. So we are only to be in "ANINIYA CHITAYAYOMI---". Rishi Naradh asked Sri Vishnu why people in Bo Lok are less in Bakthi. Just for that question, he was asked by Sri Visnu to be born on earth and teach Bakthi. He was Saint Purander Doss. Sadaks- finite desire good or bad leads to birth based on its effect- the parents are given- place is given- body is given with time bound with health or diseases or both etc. Now sadaks must decide what to think- do.
B.S
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Hari Om
At the outset let me seek exemption from this Divine GT Forum for excess length of this posting.
Let us take observations of Sadhak Rakesh in detail. Youngsters settled abroad or loving western culture/countries else may feel bad that we were not responsive to them. Far too much of emotion is there in his messages and some truths also. Then he is talking of my great country.. India...the birth place of Holy Gita and that too in this Divine GT Forum. Addressing him in detail will also set out principles behind Laws of Nature, Law of Karma, Organisational structure of Jagat, the controls by Mother Nature ; behind Holy Gita, Scriptures of Sanatan Dharma and humanity as whole and of course...behind the state of these divisions/distinctions of black/white or Brahmin/ Shudra or developed/undeveloped..progress /downfall..!!
Actually... Where are we (humanity) heading to and why ?... This Q is really at the core !
First let me examine his conclusion of first posting. I am sure he will be very glad to answer some Qs also to this Forum, for that only can set the ball rolling for benefit of all. Here is his conclusion :
"We only have to work on appeasing God Shani by providing equal opportunity,removing the divisions of society in name of caste religion and appeasing goddess lakshmi by uplifting the status of woman."
Here are the Qs to set the ball rolling:
1 On "Equal" Opportunities:
Is God Shani responsible for alleged "in-equal opportunities" ? If yes...how ? If No..why we should appease his kind self? Also a line or two on what you consider 'equality' ? How Shani is 'God of Justice' ? You referred about some principles of this Shani in your posting by stating that Indians are flouting them? What are those principles according to you ?
The following is amazing:
"Amazing it is that a country that worship Krishna, isht deva of shani (god of Labour hardwork) look down upon labour."
How Krishna gets related with labour? Is Krishna really ishta deva (Chief Minister) of the God (Minister) of Labour and 'Hardwork' ? From where did you get this information?
2 On Caste division made by Lord Himself:
Whatever 'varna and ashram' division has been stipulated by Lord Himself right from Day 1 of creation, why your good self is suggesting the 'removal' thereof ? If any part of body gets sick, should you cut that? Why should not you cut that? Who should we appease for such removal according to you (you suggested Shani for equal opportunities, and Shukra/Laxmi for women) ?
Are you aware as to what does the 'removal' suggested by you imply vis a vis Laws of Nature, Holy Gita, the very essence of Dharma? What according to you is going to be impact? Devote one para on this aspect also while replying..if you can figure that out.
You said - "Indians in my opinion, we were ruined by inequity in society (placing birth above merit). Surprisingly Indian scoiety still place birth over
merit by giving reservations".
Who according to you is responsible for aforesaid 'ruin' (who inflicted inequity)?Who has placed birth over the merit? If it is politicians then it is you who elected them not that they elected you. Does America (you appear to be considering that country to be a role model for India ) also have a similar democratic set up? Whether in that country also politicians reside ? Whether there also a sheep grazer has one vote and a person as great as George Washington also has one vote?
Who is responsible? Religion ? State so, if your answer is that ! People ?
3 Status of 'Women in India' generally and their status as compared with 'developed nations':
What according to you is 'status' ? Any yardsticks for their classification into good or bad ?
Who , according to you is responsible for 'down fall' of women? Is Goddess Laxmi responsible for same? If yes..how? If No..why we should appease her? On what basis you are suggesting : "Compare that with their status in developed nations." ? Is it very good there ? How is it very good there? How their status in developed nations is different ? Whether the greatness of status there in western nations of women is for all women there including Indian women settled there or is restricted to women other than Indian women? (Give short pointers- detailed thesis is not required- we understand)
When according to you the following happened?: "Under Brahminical rules, superstitions reached to its peak and status of woman kept falling down and down. A country where woman is worshipped as goddess, the status of woman was reduced to less than a slave."
Here you admit that before the above peak reaching of superstitions, the status of women was very high. Thanks ! In which areas it was very high and when? Now what is status ? In which areas it is now very low ("less than a slave" according to you) ? The so called 'Brahminical rules' - are they still being followed? If yes...where and how? If no..how does this Q arise? What according to you is 'superstition' - blind belief or blind knowledge ?
4 On Gods/Demi Gods:
You have used the names of certain planets with an astounding frequency ! That is very interesting ! You have talked of appeasing them, you have talked of their co-relation with -ve/+ve sentiments (karma propellors) and so on ! Can you elaborate on these planets, their specific roles and responsibility towards us? Why do they need appeasement according to you?
5 On "developed/western nations" :
The following is very interesting:
"Literature Scripture (be it from any religion) tell the right things, but the
way society adopted it practically (resulting in -ive effects of shani) and the way the gurus made the interpretations and guided the society (resulting in -ive effects of planet guru), we saw the societies being put to their right senses by western nations."
Can you throw more light on above? Like: How 'societies' can be 'put to their senses' by 'western nations'? What is that they have got, which we have not? They must be humans like Indians only. No..? How do they appease Guru or Shani or Shukra or Pluto which India has failed to do ? Name one country (western or developed) which according to you should be a role model for my great country called India.
I request Sadhak Rakesh to answer the above Qs briefly, systematically, one by one, so that the ball gets rolling on this very important topic. Believe me, you have raised few very timely issues in this Forum. I am not going to tell you that these are not relevant to this Forum, to Holy Gita, to Sadhaks !! Be assured of quality and fair discussion. Other like minded sadhaks should also give their views frankly.. ! It is an opportunity to get answers from Religion, from Holy Gita , from Saints of Sanatan Dharma.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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Dear VyasJi,
I do not think you noticed the word "divine controlled" which I used for the word "DAIVA". If you convert "divine controlled" to "Supreme Divine" at this level, it will be hard for the intellectualists to accept it. So, it is good to manage it with "Sanskaar" as mentioned in Sadhak Sanjeevani although this has been translated in many following ways by many great scolars/saints/Acharyas.
- Fate, the influence of the Power or powers other than the human factors, other than the visible mechanism of Nature, that stand behind these and modify the work and dispose its fruits in the steps of act and consequence (By Sri Aurobindo)
- Unseen (by GandhiJi)
- Destiny/Praarabdha (by Jayadayaal GoenkaJi, ....)
- Individual & Collective Fate (by Pandurang Shastri AthavaleJi)
- Deities (by ShankarachaaryaJi and many others),
- Divinity, the Supreme Self ( by RamanujacharyaJi)
I do not dis-agree with any of the above translations (including 'Sanskaar') for the word "DAIVA". All are correct at different levels. If you restrict "DAIVA" to "Sanskaar", you will have to answer what is that law (and its governor) under which, the Sanskaar is built from the actions. It is true that Lord is not responsible for the result of individual's KARMA (NA KARMA PHAL SANYOGAM) as individual's swabhaav/nature is engaged in the acting (SWABHAAV TU PRAVARTATE) but do not ignore the Lord's law "MAYAA EVA VIHITAAN - 7/22" under which the swabhaav/sanskaar/result is built.
Regarding, your other view (i.e. Lord is inactive), I am surprised to see such statement from you and that too you are bringing SwamiJi and Sadhak Sanjeevani to justify it. What you are mentioning is a part of the complete/integral truth. I will let you to go through GitaJi or SS by yourself. You need to go beyond the domain of Nature/Prakrriti to understand the Supreme actions by the Supreme Lord indicated as DADHAAMI (14/3), SAMBHAVAAMI AATMAMAAYAY(4/6) SRRIJAAMI AHAM(4/7), SAMBHAVAAMI YUGE YUGE (4/8), CHAATUVARNAM MAYAA SRRISTAM (4/14), VISRRIJAAMI (9/7,8), TAPAAMI .. NIGRRIHANAMI .. UTSRRIAJAMI (9/19), YOGAKSHEMA VAHAAMI (9/22), ASHNAAMI PRAYATAATMANAH(9/26), MATTAM SARVAM PRAVARTATE (10/8), DADAAMI BUDDHIYOGAM(10/10), NAASHYAAMI AATMABHAAVSTHO (10/11), BHAVAAMI NACHIRAATA(12/7), KSHIPAAMI AJASRAMASHUBHAAN (16/19), PRASAADAAT (18/56,58,62,73), BHRAAMYAN ... MAAYAYAA (18/61). The beautiful definition of the KARMA (BHOOTBHAVODBHAVAKARO VISARGA KARMA SANGITAH - 8/1) itself is being indicated as Lord's KARMA by SwamiJi.
May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey
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Hari Om
Neetishji ! The term 'daiva' in BG 18.14 does not mean 'Supreme Lord' but it means 'Sanskars' (own habits/ individual 'nature'/ velocity to do karma ) ! Karta always does 'karma' according to 'sanskaars' (svabhaav) ! Every karma leaves an imprint of 'sanskar' in your antahkarna. These sanskars are part of subtle body, and get accumulated over the life spans. Good karmas leave good (shubha/auspicious) imprints and bad the bad imprints. These imprints become your 'svabhav' ( developed habit in you) and they too play an equally vital role in accomplishment of a good or bad karma based on your 'sanskaars'. These 'sanskars' cause 'sphurana' ( a tendency/drive to do ). That sphurana gets converted into karma. By sanga (company) , Shashtras (Scriptures) and vichaar (careful consideration), your bad or good sanskaras get strength, by which new karmas take place. Your karmas are therefore are in accordance with your sanskaars. Hence 'daiva' is one of the 5 ! 'Svabhavastu pravartate' - says Gita 5:14 - it is 'svabhav' ( individual nature) that functions.
If we consider Supreme Lord to be one of 5 causes/mediums , then many verses , dozens of verses in fact, of Gita will get contradicted, which is not possible. Refer BG 13:29, 3:27, 3:28, 5:9, BG 13:31, 13:19/20 etc. When even 'Purusha' (Self/soul) is not a doer , where is the question of Purushottam (Supreme Lord) being a doer ? Read here: BG 5:14 ! All actions take place in the regime of Prakruti- it is a law of Shrimad Bhagvadgita. Read BG 3:27/5:8 also. Purushottam is better than Purusha and beyond Prakruti (BG 15:18) ! Read BG 3:33 also- Prakrutim yaanti bhutaani...! The term 'chestate' there suggests , you don't 'do' karma, rather based on 'prakruti' (svabhav/sanskar) activity 'happens' !
Also, 'Karta' is not 'Self' in BG 18:14 . Karta is that Jeeva who assumes doership. That karta only becomes one of the cause/ medium (hetu) out of 5 stated in 18:14, in accomplishment of a karma.
Then, 18:14 merely lists the causes of accomplishing a karma ...it does not throw light "towards understanding the result of all the actions " ! For understanding results , you have to factor in variety of things including individuals doing or not doing their prescribed duties (Yagya) , principles of Law of Karma, the Laws of Nature, the organisational structure of 'adhibhut' (Jagat), and things which aid/distract from 'parasparam bhavyantah' referred in BG 3:11, karmas which agitate/annoy Prakruti / Demi Gods responsible for administration of Jagat etc etc. It is not some futile /entertaining discussion subject...it is subject matter of 'Jnana'- Akhilam Karma !!!
Actually , the very object of 18:14 is to explain that 'self' (soul) is not at all connected with karma. Just As: The object 7:29/30 is also to establish non-doership or untaintedness of Supreme Lord.
That is Param Shraddheya Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj for you, Divine Sadhaks. His commentaries on Gita are never contradictory. Sadhaks should read Sadhak Sanjeevani in case of doubt. Such a good treatise is available on this planet. We should take advantage of it. In Sadhak Sanjeevani all such apparent contradictions in Gita verses are minutely explained, reconciled and for the benefit of humanity at large, in Gita Darpan, Swamiji has given various terms which have to be read accordingly. For example, the term 'Daiva' is used to denote 'Gods/demi Gods such as Indra etc' in 14 verses, to denote Supreme Lord Krishna in 9 verses of Chapter XI and in 18:14 to denote 'svabhav' of Karta (Jeeva) etc and so on...!
I recommend that all sadhaks, 'jigyasu' (curious) sadhaks in particular, should read Sadhak Sanjeevani !
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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Dear Jay,
The Law of Karma will operate.regardless of the religion one is belonging to...it is a Univesal Law...in simple English,Jay,it means " Destiny" or "Fate"...which one has to suffer/enjoy as accumulated due to one's deeds in one's past lives...Sanchita Karma...and in one's present Life,one will perforce have to enjoy/suffer one's Prarabdha Karma...the unfinished portion of the accumulated Karma of the past lives,if any plus a portion of the Karma as a result of one's deeds in one's present life...
That is precisely why our religious leaders,exhort us to perform good deeds as much as possible in one's present life...it will stand one good for present and the next life too...
This is a subject,unfortunately,which cannot be explained or understood by just reading books or listening to lectures/pravachans et al...one has to very carefully and critically examine/observe our daily experiences...and very intelligently...
With the very best wishes,
Yogesh Lajmi.
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As defined in Gita the secret of Karma is not an easy one to grasp.
The Karma by default lead one from Godhood to Devas to humans
to animals to plants and the final downfall to matter.
Thus if one donot fight for upliftment of the soul then one shall automatically
go the downhill course and stay till the end of Pralaya say after crore-crore-crore
years of existence as matter.
Then matter gets redistributed during Pralaya and prikiti forms a platform for Karmas to be
played downhill again and again.
only if one take a journey uphill then alone one is out of matter cycle.
Then one goes up from human to devas to Purush to uttam purush to satpurush and thus back to
satpad or God.
This one can achieve through Nishkaam Karma that is achieve total freedom from first the matter or Jad
part and also second the prakriti part by control or pran,manas and budhi; thus finally residing in
third part the soul/deva stage which alone can travel out of Prakriti influences by marching through
Purush;uttam purush and to satpurush stages ;that alone can merge into divya part of satpad or Godhead
by Divine grace alone.
This all is story of Karma simplified.
Thus Gita not only explains birth and death and rebirth but tells to rise to the occassion and sleep not till
the Karm GATI IS WON OVER.
--
For global peace ;
Act local please.
With best greetings
DR PUNEET GUPTA
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To emphasise on the last point from previous post. Shani and guru planets play
the most important role in defining the material status of individual or
country.
Countries & Societies like those have been listed (Africa, egypt, India etc)
have to introspect on what we have done to see the retrograde effects of shani &
guru.
Literature & Scripture (be it from any religion) tell the right things, but the
way society adopted it practically (resulting in -ive effects of shani) and the
way the gurus made the interpretations and guided the society (resulting in -ive
effects of planet guru), we saw the societies being put to their right senses by
western nations.
No nation or empire in human history has fallen because of external factors. It
has always been Internal factors, that those nations became hollow. For Romans
they were ruined by luxury, for Indians in my opinion, we were ruined by inequity in society
(placing birth above merit). Surprisingly Indian scoiety still place birth over
merit by giving reservations.
The irony is that most of these societies are still unable to see the open ditch
of their follies in front and blaming external factors like America's foreign
policies and other developed nations game.
regds,
rakesh
Hari SharaNam,
Bhagavad Gita -18/14 does provide the five causing factors (1: ADHISTAAN/Place to act, 2: KARTA/actor, 3: KARAN/instruments, 4: CHESTA/Efforts & 5: DAIVA /divine controlled ) of all the actions towards understanding the result of all the actions (SIDDHYAE SARVA KARMANAAM -18/13).You can simulate a model of all these 5 factors, being associated/influenced with/by the triple play of the nature governed by the Supreme, for any individual/ family/ community/ country to understand its current situation. But, note that the fifth factor "DAIVA" can be known ONLY by the Supreme Controller. Hence, to really understand the whole equation, one must know the Supreme (MAAM AASHRITYA ... VIDU KARMA CHAAKHILAM - 7/29) who is also the the initiator of all the cosmic actions (9/7,9/8,14/3). Otherwise, one could use the first 4 factors just to entertain the talk/discussion on any situation but remember these 4 factors are not insignificant also.
May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey
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Sadhak Chandra says,''Action (Karma) and Reaction (Fruit) are always equal and OPPOSITE. This term OPPOSITE is beyond comprehension. Does a good deed (PUNYA KARMA) bears BAD (OPPOSITE OF GOOD) fruit?
Humbly,
Saadhaka.
---------------------------------------------
-Shree Hari-
Namaste!
Jay, I ask you this question, do you remember your previous lives? OK
the answer is usually No.
My point is don't try and fix things according to nation!
I will tell you true article I read: In the USA was an anthropologist,
and he wanted to study ceremonies of the native American, and he went to
some tribal elders and requested to sit in or partake in a lodge ritual,
all agreed except one elder his face bathed in hatred, eventually after
much persuasion, he sullenly agreed, he was allowed to partake. These
men and he, sat in a circle in a Teepee, they passed around a stick
those who wished would hang onto the stick and would speak of something
that gave them pain etc. , then pass the stick on, the anthropologist
held the stick and recounted how he and his mother used to shelter in a
cellar in terror as the American bombers dropped their bombs all around
them(WW2), it was emotional, he then passed the stick around again, the
man who was so hostile refused the stick several times, then he started
to shake and cry, he took the stick. This hostile man said, "Dear God I
was a bomber pilot in WW2 and I bombed your city, it is I who as the
aggressor who brought you such terror", and then he said "I blame the
white man, for my peoples suffering, but I could as easily have been a
white oppressor in a past life, I apologize". This may not be verbatim
but it is pretty accurate. Suddenly this native American saw the
complexity of Karma, and the stupidity of making judgements.
There are universal laws at work, and just now and then you may get a
gimps of understanding , through the fog of unknowing.
Om ... Shanti ...
Mike.
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Dear Sadhaks
If there is anything called bad karma ( as opposed to sukrita), it happens whenever we hurry things.
Humbly
Veena
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Shree Hari Ram Ram
Rakeshji, PLEASE READ THE TOPICS - It will provide greater insight into Caste / Jaati etc.
Is "Jaati" believed to be at Birth or by Actions?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2561
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2567
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2576
Also read the Gita Talk Discussion thread -
Q: Is the Caste System by Birth or by Deed?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/796
Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
-------------------------------------------------
The same applies to why Indians were subjugated for 1000 years first by muslim
invaders, mughals and then by britishers. A country where Gods are born was
looted and butchered. Why? What kind of karma Indians had done collectively to
see such a misery.
Same points apply to all nations that are suffering:
1) Social Equality: Shani, God of Justice, is worshipped in India but his principles are not followed. According to me, -ive karmas created by a society divided by caste offset all +ives done by society. Untouchability, brahminical superiority etc are some of the -ive karmas that invite the wrath of God Shani. Same thing is
still being done in many underdeveloped or developing nations. Developed countries don't promote social divisions based on caste. Opportunities are made available to one and all and people claim it by merit. These Opportunities are not only available to citizens but to even those coming from foreign lands.
Barring a few exceptions at individual level, majorly all developed nations governments believe in equality. Compare it to Indian Maharajas who according to my understanding used to sponsor brahminical bigotry and subjugated the worker class. What would they
expect in return? Those maharajas were subjugated by Muslims and then
britishers. Same is the case even today when Indian politicians instead of working to provide social equality further dividing people in the name of religion and castes by means of Aarakshan/Reservations. Isn't this becoming the -ive Karma again? No doubt we would have to again pay for it in coming future.
2) Status of Human Labour (Shani): Amazing it is that a country that worship
Krishna, isht deva of shani (god of Labour & hardwork) look down upon labour. As
a society we always looked down upon labour work like cobblers, Ironsmith,
weavers etc..What were these if not the engineers, technicians and mechanics of
ancient India? Look what treatment we gave them. They were considered the
Shudras, the lower most caste. The class which did so many innovations in the
field of technology was never praised by any king or maharaja. The level where
Indian metallurgy was could be well guessed by looking at Ashoka's Pillar.
Result: No further innovations in next 2000 years from the labour class from
where was the only chance that innovations would be made. Instead Indians always
looked up on people who can talk and recite thus giving high status to Brahmins
and lower most status to engineers.
Thats not the case in any of developed country. Dignity of labour did never
exist in India under the rule of Maharajas thus inviting the wrath of god shani.
Compare it to developed nations where all innovations came from working class
(shani god personified). Which other under-developed or developing country can
match that where innovation only meant writing a new poem or a new epic. No
doubt India had to pay for its -ive karmas and remained under british rule for
200 years.
Unfortunately, even today indians look down upon working class and look upto
speaaking class. Go to any University, 80% people want to be MBAs or some cushy
profession where they don't have to dirty their hands on field. We look up to
becom MBA, IAS or other sitting jobs instead of becoming engineers, mechanics
and technicians. 80% of Engineers after graduation from IIT go into Management
or IAS.
From britishers we only learnt English speaking rather than their technical,
hands on abilities.
3) Status of Woman (Lakshmi & Shukra): Under Brahminical rules, superstitions
reached to its peak and status of woman kept falling down and down. A country
where woman is worshipped as goddess, the status of woman was reduced to less
than a slave. How could goodess lakshmi remain happy on such a country where
woman were burnt alive in name of Sati, killed as infant and considered burden
on family. Compare that with their status in developed nations.
No doubt, we had to pay and were ruled, subjugated. Wheel of karma came full
circle on Indians. Even today we have not improved as a society.
Sex ratio is lowest in North India, where girl child is still considered a
burden, where women are still getting burnt alive in name of dowry.
4) Education opportunity to one and all (Guru)
Before comparing countries like Africa/Egypt/India etc with developed nations,
just look at the +ive karmas developed societies are generating and the -ive
karmas our societies are creating every passing hour.
India still has a golden opportunity as its a nation where Gods have lived and
roamed, where ganga and gau are still worshipped.
We only have to work on appeasing God Shani by providing equal opportunity,
removing the divisions of society in name of caste & religion and appeasing
goddess lakshmi by uplifting the status of woman.
regds,
rakesh
-------------------------------------------------
Jay Shree Krishna,
Karma is like seed. It grows and get ripe according it's quality(Property). Like beans (Mung,Dal) grows in water in couple days and give the fruits ( crop) in few months in specific environment.
While mango seed ie.Gotali takes few months to grow and years to get mango.
Action (Karma) and reaction(Fruit) are always equal and opposite.Time factor is condensation period depending on matter.(Like water, LPG,oil etc)
Jay Shree Krishna
Chandra
-------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om
Why do you want to understand that which clearly is very difficult to understand? Gita too says : Gahana Karmano Gatih ( The subject of Karma is very deep and complex) !! If this is say an issue of a whole country say Africa or India then it will be very difficult - almost impossible to firm up precise causes of an X or Y state existing. Then you are also answering yourself by blaming westerners as if seeking a confirmation to your views by this Divine Forum. So you have to first let us know as to how does this help you ?
No...you should strive to understand Karma not at micro level but at macro level first. If you attempt to understand at micro level, the process is quite elaborate. You have to understand first the 'organisational structure' of this planet(Jagat) . Then you have to grasp 'collective karmas' ( karmas done as a habit by many or almost all) . You have to divide the 'existing scenario' into 2 parts - 1 With reference to an individual Jeeva (individual karmas and their results) 2 With reference to all Jeevas as a group (collective karmas and their results). After this division is done, then you have to co-relate collective Karmas with Sr No 2 ! Then you have to see the 'basic structure' of this Jagat. You have to know important principles behind operation of ' Law of Karma' ! You have to know the circumstances/ karmas which annoy/agitate demi-gods ( organisational structure) and understand their re-actions logically... and so on.
The above analysis does not get done that easily. A lot of factors have to be considered. I don't think unless you have specific object defined, it will be a waste of time. This group can help you 'generally' giving you principles of Law of Karma but to give you reasons/lectures at such micro level...I don't think it will serve any purpose. Hence ask Qs , one by one, on principles first.
By the way, why Africa...entire world is suffering, suffering and...suffering ! Not a single soul is happy. This world is defined as DUKHALAYAM in Gita - here only sorrows, pure unadulterated sorrows only (and nothing else except sorrows) exist. Where is happiness in this world at all ? This is 'basic structure' of this world..! JUST AS: In Pustakalaya (library) we find pustaks (books) only and nothing else except books, in Bhojanalaya (restaurant) we find food only and nothing else except food SIMILARLY: In Dukhalayam (this world) what else you can find except sufferings and sorrows?
Hence either talk of 'sufferings' in general at macro level or talk about 'Law of Karma' at principle level...do not ask for a particular region say Africa or India or America unless that helps you in your sadhana (striving), and if that is the case let us know first as to how that helps you !
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------
Action … Space … Time … and beyond … NO ACTION
The Scriptures are univocal that there is no action at The Self. Bhagavadgita says, there is no Karma for the one who is eternally established in The Self as well. Of course that makes sense since one cannot exist but THAT then. Hence, it is worthwhile understanding why the monolithic action remain in multiplicity in one's mind. Also, what is meant by "NO ACTION"? Only then there is a possibility for one to break the individual cocoon built around oneself in terms of multiplicity in action. Therefore, it is required to understand how The Action is actualized in the first place.
Action is the result of conjugation between space and time. Sir Isaac Newton built all his theories around the well established notion on space, time and action model - constant space, absolute time and sequential action. Einstein on the other hand recognized that there is multiplicity in time and space - time is relative. The space is something captive in a perceived existence. The time is a creation within each perceived existence or individual (body clock) running within each existence (space) in its own way. An individual can only have a glimpse of the space-time tubes in which other individuals are running at their own pace. Thus, the world cognized by an individual is nothing but a collage of such fragmented space-time images from the multitude of perceived existences around. Therefore, every experience (Anubhava) remains fragmented in multiplicity in each individual. Even within one's cognitive memory space and time run in multiple channels depending on the associated value, emotional intensity. Each channel is separated from one's active presence depending on the associated emotional traces in one's consciousness. Thus, one's memory (Smriti) is fragmented into multiplicity within. ACTION IS NOTHING BUT THE LOCUS OF INDIVIDUALIZED CONSCIOUSNESS AMONGST THE FRAGMENTED IMAGES PERCEIVED FROM THE WORLD AND EXTRACTED FROM THE MEMORY. Since the conscious locus ought to traverse across multiplicity, the perceived action naturally remains fragmented in multiplicity.
Stephen Hawking makes a remarkable observation on time, "I still believe the universe has a beginning in real time, at the big bang. But there's another kind of time, imaginary time orthogonal to real time, in which the universe has no beginning or end". The boundary condition of the universe is that it has no boundary. The universe would be completely self-contained and not affected by anything outside itself. It would neither be created nor destroyed. It would just BE. This might suggest that the so-called imaginary time is really the real time, and that what we call real time is just a figment of our imaginations. In real time (relatively perceived in individual imagination), the universe has a beginning and an end at singularities that form a boundary to space-time and at which the laws of science break down. But in the imaginary time (THE ABSOLUTE ONE THAT PERVADES ACROSS ALL INDIVIDUAL ONES), there are no singularities or boundaries. So maybe what we call imaginary time is really more basic, and what we call real is just an idea that we invent to help us describe what we think the universe is like.
Accordingly, Einstein concludes Time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it. The distinction between past, present, and future is only an illusion, though a convincing one, he says. The theory is elaborated further by great physicists such as Brian Greene and David Bohm ... EVERYTHING JUST IS. JUST LIKE THE WHOLE SPACE EXISTS, WHOLE TIME ALREADY EXISTS. THERE ARE ONLY NOWS ... NEITHER PAST NOR FUTURE. The action can be determined as relations between such parallel universes each revolving around localized consciousness within as well as around simultaneously just like the earth revolves around itself as well as around sun all other celestial objects. Multiplicity remains the reality till the consciousness keeps shifting its focus from one existential domain to another generating a notion of space, time and action. Since the very locus can never be broken, the associated action, space and time remain unbroken as well.
Therefore, action itself is a notion generated by an ever-dynamic CONSCIOUSNESS - Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi. So are the space and time. Any specific action, space and time cluster do exist only as far as the consciousness remains there. Since neither of them can be absolutely considered as the origin of any, they appear to generate each other under a vigilant examination. One can claim, action generates space and time while others can claim on contrary. All possibilities remain equally valid because ... ItareNa tu jeevanti yasmin etaan upaashritaan ... the very notions of space, time and action are actualized, supported and absorbed by something else - CONSCIOUSNESS!
How can THAT achieve this feat?! Because IT remains stationed everywhere while moving across time, space and action in their real (manifested/Vyaakrita) as well as imaginary (unmanifested/Avyaakrita) domains. IT reaches everywhere before anything else as IT becomes every manifestation (and unmanifestation) as ITSELF …
Anejadekam manaso javeeyo nainaddevaa aapnuvan poorvamarshat |
Taddhaavato'nyaanatyetitishThat tasminnapomaatarishwaa dadhaati ||
IT remains beyond ALL in spite of being ALL … IT ought to be ALL-EXCLUSIVE since IT IS ALL-INCLUSIVE …
Respect.
Naga Narayana.
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Dear Gita-Talk member,
Yes, Karma is very difficult to understand and it gets very
complicated very fast. But our thinking is the karma-
factory. If we can throw-out all our physical thinking
then we will stop generating negative-karma for our
selves. Then, if we can pray in our thinking then we will
be generating positive karma for our soul.
Good Luck! Bye!
Notesh Otes
--------------------------------------------------------
when we talk of KARMA we should know whether it is fot individual --group or --nation .if every is doing rightly his karma then the whole world aould be a heaven like place but we know there are vices in human beings --jealousy --anger--attachment --ego and greed .any of these evils in one person can create hell for others --if like minded people collect and make a group then a bigger harm would be done to the society --nation .politicians national or inter-national have been doing this since ages .history is full of such incidents and such people --
jai shree krishna
Chaman Nigam
---------------------------------------------------
read scriptures , do a little satsang
Ashok Gupta
--------------------------------------------------
Dear Jay,
Namaskar!
You are confused because, you try to understand that portion of finite period of Karmas which is not within your memory. You take for granted that the present life is ALL and only period of Karmas! No it is not that way!
You would get satisfied when you understand as why a particular pet dog gets costly biscuits to eat , a cozy bed to sleep in company of a rich master. While; a human child of a beggar is not getting a simple loaf of bread to beat its hunger. This difference can never be reason less and also not associated with present life of both living beings the pet dog and the beggar's child!!
Think it over and revert back to with further questions!
I am
KKK
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)
-----------------------------------------------------
As learnt from Swamijee, which action will be awarded which result and when, is not time-tabled. You have to study the whole episode then your question will automatically vanish because there is no flaw in Nature.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.
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Karma theory says that man alone is responsible for his actions. This is against facts. The world in which we are born, neither with nor against our will but as a result of certain actions of our parents, is a world of many-cause and many-effect phenomenon. For the things that happen to man, man alone is not responsible. Vyasa, who subdivided the Vedas into four parts, of which only 13 remain out of a total of 1131, thoroughly brainwashed innumerable generations of Hindus by making them believe in Karma theory. But the saving grace is that in the Gita, which is again compiled by a Vyasa as having been uttered by Krishna (I dont know how Vyasa came to know what Krishna said to Arjuna), Krishna says:" Do your duty and desire not the fruit". The reason is that in areas where man has to contribute his part of work, the result may or may not come, depending on the operation of other causes contributed by other beings and inanimate things in nature which are essential for the result to happen. Krishna seems to be aware of this and that is why he asks us to do our duty and shut up. Without a combination of several causes of which human factor is only one cause, the result will not come. And no amount of prayer, or 'chest-beating' as Swami Vivekananda calls it, can bring about the result even if one contributory factor is missing. Many things in the world can be explained if we understand that the causative factors come from man, other beings and things, or one or more of these factors if not all. Man in his arrogance thinks that he is the Lord of creation. But the Lord of Creation is different, has made natural laws which operate without favour to or prejudice against anyone, and the "the effect must come if the causes are exact, proper and powerful" in the words of Swami Vivekananda (Vol II, 'Work and Its Secret'). Man, on account of his superior brain which has evolved during the course of lakhs of years of his existence, has however the capacity to select laws whose operation makes for his progress and happiness. But he has no power to alter natural laws or prevent effects from happening. We have only a small part to play in the universe and that should make us humble.
Srinivasa Rao Kankipati
---------------------------------------------
What appears to be..........may be an illusion....
A rich may be really rich, a poor may not be really poor....it may all be a reflection of our level of consciousness....our understanding of life.....
best way to know the truth is to have patience, contemplate....understand.....experience....
Sushil Jain
-----------------------------------------------
On the way you present Gita as if.....it is the sole book to rely on not at all;
The replier on Karma obviously has not read or understood the mearning of ishaupanishad mantra, 2, (40th Chapter of Yajur Veda) and also Kath Upanishad both of these and many others are of the four vedas and they all speak about karma and in fact nishkaama karma as it directly reflects on jivaaatmaa; so your answer in reference to Gita, is incorrect and inappropriately put and said, almost telling everone that Vyasa lived for centuries and also wrote Gita again after dividing the vedas, wow, this is inapproriate and incorrectly of presenting the vedas and its knowledge, and you should read Katha Upanishad as it is exactly where Gita comes from;
I am not disuputing what is written in the gita of course it is correct and good but based totally on the vedas, and it is just an mental uproar of a human living person in this world, a fight in their head so to say;
kindest
regards
Pandit Tularamji
----------------------------------------
This a topic dear to me and I like to keep things simple.
Karma, as one of the pillars of Santan Dharma i.e What you did yesterday will affect today and you do today will impact tomorrow. This applies to every aspect of one's life - whether it is health, hygiene, nurturing, relationships, career etc. I have yet to find an application that it does not apply.
Krishna in the Gita also tried to project the message of when confronting a challenge - deal with it and move and the results will be whatever it will be.
Specifically in relation to Africa. One has to refer to Japan when the land broke away from China and a culture of honesty, integrity and dedication evolved and we all witness the Japanese behaviour after the Tsunami. Surely Karma applied - the stage was set for the behaviour.
Africa has not evolved as quickly, however there are positive signs as South Africa is part of the BRICS group of countries. The challenge Africa has is too much outside influence and colonial hangovers and everything foreign is great rather than utilising the good from different parts of the world.-no different than some of the things happening in India. It is said that the billions that Indians and Pakistanis have stashed away abroad can create employment for years for all its umemployed if that money was returned.
The western world is on the decline, no different from the Greeks etc. However, they will find a way in which to control for a period of time until they learn to live in harmony with the rest of the world.
Mangal Deolal
-------------------------------------------------
Dear sadaks,
God requires such places for your to be born to undergo your previous birth Punniyas and sins. It is clear in Bible- Quran- Srimath Bagavath. I feel many sadaks does not even know or read scripts. Apart from this earth the 13 worlds where we go to enjoy or suffer is clear. Everything from creation- how etc and causes of good and bad is clear. It is our choice.
B.S
---------------------------------------------------------
Karma … miseries and joy … needs and resources ... poverty and prosperity …
I understand the intrigue playing in your mind. Of course it intrigues most minds as well.
Knowledge is power for humans. Any human society that recognized the fact and embraced the knowledge bloomed in history. It is called civilization. Any action that was directed toward enhancing the collective knowledge for survival would increase the chances for survival collectively. Increase in assurance of survival is the only comfort any living being (including the humans) would generally care for. Whichever society embraced this power could hegemonize the other less evolved societies around. That is clear from history. In fact, The East did very well when compared to The West for a long time as the eastern civilizations emphasized the value of knowledge the most.
A paradigm shift happened in The West that changed the power balance completely. Knowledge retention was dwindling in The East due to the personalized style of education. Knowledge became rules and the rules became superstitions :(. Knowledge retention and growth was revolutionized in The West by decentralizing the very education system and opening the same to much vaster population. Decentralized knowledge retention and propagation helped the west to overpower the east and the rest in the world. Science is the best example for this today. There are thousands of universities and millions of students pursuing career in the field. Probability of retaining and growing the body of knowledge is million-fold today thanks to the western revolution in the knowledge sector. Of course, it reflects in social, economic, political as well as martial powers in a society.
Yes Karma bears fruits now as well as down the lane in the future. The population that is involved in the Karma would naturally claim stakes in the fruits. The rule remains the same for each individual as well. The probability of success depends on the population that supports and the population that competes. Economy of the population provides the general infra-structure for the individual success while individual capability and the associated competition within the population determines the individual's success within the population. But, my dear friend, nothing is free in this life. Success comes with a cost as well - competition, intrigue, stress and pain!
The knowledge, power and happiness correlation is often tricky as well as sticky! They are apparently well correlated but inherently remain in mutual contradiction!! One of my American colleague once visited Bombay and was shocked to see people sleeping in the streets. I quipped back, "they could sleep on streets while you could not in a five star hotel … who is happier?!" Good sleep is one main indicator of happiness in living.
Power (social, economic as well as political) has its own baggage. The Nobel Laureate Amraartya-sen's conclusions on economic basis for happiness is an eye-opener for the modern society (if any cares!). Using existential indicators such as sleep he establishes that an average Bangladeshi is happier than an average American! Count the symptoms of happiness in the person, not the possessions!!
Poverty is often wrongly calculated with relative deficiency of purchasing power in a competitive population - now it has spread globally thanks to economic and industrial globalization. When I visited China in nineties, the economy was blooming … all gadgets were available on street ... none could afford any! The true poverty is related to one's needs and one's access to resources. One popular (but ignorant!) way to become rich is to enhance one's access to resources. Stress of competition around and lack of knowledge within kills the fellow alive. We all know this as we all have succumbed to this monster one way or the other. There is no way of enhancing the resources beyond some limit. Worst of all, the resources never remain loyal to the hoarder ... they always follow the fittest in the competition. The fitness keeps degenerating in everyone as one ages. It is a vicious path that recycles one in cycles of poverty (fear of lack of resources) and poverty (fear of lack of competency). The fellow wanders from one fear to another perpetually. That way, the power-centric existential happiness is bound to remain within the shadows of fear all the time.
There is another simpler way with 100% surety to attain richness - REDUCE THE NEEDS WITHIN! After all poverty is lack of happiness and happiness is the fraction of resource against one's needs. The fraction approaches ZERO as one's needs increase exponentially. The happiness plummets to extinction as a result. The fellow remains POOR in spite of being a billionaire! As one balances one's needs to available resources, the fraction becomes ONE letting the fellow live in peace even in a hut. As one continues to reduce the needs within, the wealth becomes abundant leaving the fellow in joy even without a home. When one overcomes the very need for hoarding all the existential needs, the fraction becomes INFINITY. THE FELLOW BECOMES THE BLISS AS EVER. What remains around becomes irrelevant.
The key to wealth is within ... but we look everywhere else. The fatigue in wandering kills us before we can even think of the key within. Only one who recognizes the key within, finds it and opens the gate within to the infinitude of joy is RICH my dear friend.
Of course, if you are looking for balance sheets for material management, material always chooses the power of knowledge … power of socio-political centers ... to become a center of its own - economic power. That is its nature as it always looks for its own survival … and, its survival is secured in its own power center!
Everything follows its own nature with only one goal - survival. Karma facilitates that without fail. No sentiments there. Yama it is. One that cannot be controlled. Dharma it is. One that never interferes with the natural flow of matter and energy in this universe.
Regards.
Naga Narayana.
-------------------------------------------------
Dear Ones, Namaste!
Dear Jay, before we discuss Karma let me say this.
In a recent E-mail sent by a friend I read the survey by some reliable organization or some group about Happy people of the world. Indonesia, India and Mexico were among the top three and US/Western Europe were somewhere in the lower middle, while at lowest were East European countries.
So if happiness means anything to us then it answers part of your question in a way.
Before we answer further we need to see what is the nature of Karma.
To me, Laws of Karma is not a theory or a belief but an observable fact as you can see it with an open mind.. It is fundamentally Mass Karma, not individual Karma yet, generated by what people have thought and acted since the beginning of mankind. Their kindness and their atrocities, based on acquired or inherited beliefs, religious practices, cultures, self-centered or self-less acts have left invisible but solid imprints on Human Consciousness. In other words, Human Consciousness is conditioned by these impressions or Karma, and act out from individuals dictating their thinking and beliefs and thus actions. This mass Karma is in subtle body where evolution takes place in time. All selfish activities/pursuits contribute and strengthen this.
Don't you think our current thinking at all levels of living is affected more or less by predominant traditions in a place and time we are born into? Marks left by people like Gandhi, Mother Teresa, Hitler, and other ignoble or noble people influence our actions today. Such thought (Karma) based actions are never free and binds us as we say our Karma binds us!
We, in ignorance, believe we are independently existing individuals and consider part of this mass Karma as our individual Karma. As a matter of fact, this conditioning uses body-mind as an anchor to identify with and acts as "me/mine in and through our actions". It is this mass Karma, that get recycled from bodies to bodies across all generations. We call this the process of re-incarnation, continuation of ignorance body. Scriptures call this a re-birth of subtle body.
In some generation, in some place, in some Jeeva, Realization happens that "I am not an individual, I am not a doer of actions of this given body, I am Impersonal Being only ". The body identification drops off.
Then all his/her Karma gets burnt, so to speak, meaning now he/her is free from Karmic laws in the sense that whatever happens to body doesn't happen to him/her, is free from bondage.
As a matter of fact the Laws of Karma being Impersonal in nature acts as beneficial for greater good as it keeps on correcting the bad actions of people by getting rid of them through other people,(Avataras, Sages, Great Mahatmas, Leaders, Volunteers, etc etc - in Giita), and also through natural actions of dissolution (Shiva/Shakti) to create new eras. Only to the extent, we act selfishly due to ignorance, the cycle gets delayed in correcting actions, depending on the Karmic Balance of goodness vs evilness! The creative impulse is in-build in the Karma System.
This is not a theory or mere belief, it is happening in the world right now.
Now if nothing is really "personal", all is happening within Totality, or God by God, for God, then why to worry? God is the Law of Karma too! Anything good or bad happens is our perception happening to individual, but in the light of this fact, it is Impersonal Happening and not a victimization of one by the other! Only from an individual perspective good or bad happens, otherwise things just happen. This is what happens in Africa and the world and we need to do the best to undo wrong things which is also happening at the same time!
The issue boils down to Realize and live as if we are not such an apparent individuals as we seem, and all our problems will be resolved for sure.
You can see the answer to your query is implied here. I will stop now and be more specific in later post.
Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt
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Karma … Praarabdha … Purushaartha … PERFECT BALANCE …
Action is universal transcending all boundaries. It remains The Absolute in spite of generating apparent variations at its infinitude of segments spread across space and time. It pervades all the entities (physical objects as well as their cognitive counterparts in thoughts) assuring the continuity across the apparently discrete entities. It is established as the eternal changes that morphs the matter-energy clusters into perpetual chain of variants across time and space.
Karma brahmodbhavam viddhi Brahmaakshara samudbhavam |
Tasmaat sarvagatam brahma nityam yagnye pratishThitam ||
But the humans attempt to subjugate even such a universal truth natural to their acute self-centered beliefs. Our ignorant assumptions regarding The Action are quite hilarious!
One can't fathom anything that is not discrete … so one assumes multiplicity by drawing imaginary boundaries within the monolithic existence.
One can't act without an identification … so one amongst the many is assumed as oneself and considers it as subject (or originator!) for the action.
One can't act without assistance from the rest … so the fellow calls upon the others as objects for the action originated by the subject.
Cunningly, the fellow assumes a lead over the very act identified and claims ownership … does not bother even to check its validity … does not care to cross check whether it is agreeable to the "others" involved. It is like a cat's assumption that it is invisible while stealing milk with closed eyes!
The self-proclaimed arrogance of the fellow is further more entertaining … it assumes the authority to expect certain fruits out of the action and dares to demand an explanation if the expectations are not met!!
The stupidity exceeds all limits as one furiously canvasses how the fellow is cheated in the act in spite of excelling in leading the actions. The contradictions that the fellow harbors are baffling. On one hand the fellow claims an excellent command on an act. On other hand one keeps lamenting how the fellow is cheated with wrong or insufficient fruits for all the labor put-in!!! As one claims "I command this act, it is mine" one laments "the act is not following my orders"!!!
The existential reality is such an egotic idiocy. It continues hilariously even in spirituality as it ought to root itself in the existential reality to start with. So we identify actions with different labels in an effort to assort our problems within to enable a rational appreciation within. We call two types of actions - Praarabdha (Destiny) and Purushaartha (Volition). The former is assumed to be predominantly controlled by the objects collectively while the later is assumed to be predominantly controlled by the subject. The idea is to educate the subject regarding its egotic idiocy to its own root. Since the fellow is incapable of understanding that, the prescription continues with a cause-effect analysis using the perceived subject-object relations in the activities. The prescription is to expose the fellow within his own accepted vocabulary such as "I", "Others", "Mine", "Doing", "objects", "Thoughts", etc.
The pretentious fellow starts hair-splitting ... then, the education is forced adopt sub-classifications within each category to help the fellow out of the ignorance. Accordingly you end up with many adjectives associated with Karma - Shubha, Ashubha, Nishiddha, Shaastrokta, Paraa, Aparaa, Sevaa, Poojaa, Japa, etc. Facts remain simple even when one dissects to look at segments of action:
1. Karma ensures integrity amongst all the participants all through its segment.
2. Karma provides the platform for all the changes keeping the integrity amongst the participants intact.
3. MOST IMPORTANTLY, Karma always ensures equilibrium amongst the apparently conflicting/contradicting desires and aspirations amongst the participants all through the course.
4. OPTIMAL RESULT is generated to cater to the collective wish of all the elements involved with absolutely equal importance to all involved - THAT IS CALLED EQUILIBRIUM IN PHYSICS!
Therefore, dear Jay, Karma is considerate, compassionate and impartial. Best of the results is provided to each participant in the perceived game without failure. Study Newton's laws carefully to understand this game between inputs and outputs at each station in the action. As mentioned earlier, Karma is Yama as well as Dharma for preserving the universe AS IS and AS EVER. It always ensures PERFECT BALANCE amongst its own perceived components such as destiny and volition as well as its perceived ingredients such as participants, change, etc.
My suggestion is that you look for the answer within the jumble of lopsided beliefs that we procreate in our imaginations every moment.
Respects.
Naga Narayana.
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Dear Jay
Karma is act of aatma (self) with the laws of nature (dharma). Aatma is only Karta Purush and all karm is an act of that. The Jiiva or within which Atma and Nature both exist is not responsible for karma but only makes a desire which his/her parents (aatma and prakriti) follow.Â
Jiiva if desires for good, karma which is acted by aatma and dharma shall deliver good results and if jiiva desires something bad, karma fal will be bad. This is learning window which Jiiva uses to improve his/her desires while being in the world. The world is an experimental or play school for Jiva and parents facilitate it in learning.Â
With the above fundamental of the Bhagwat Giita, you can treat the question of Africa and America. Africa has lots of suffering because people have no food as perceived by American and children die in absense of medical treatment. America has a different story. People in America die by over eating and obecity. Ameriica has no hunger and malnutrition but it creates war and destruction which substitute that. There is less threat to the earth from Africa than from America. This is all the desires which differ from one mind to another.Â
Did you get your answer?Â
Regards
K G Misra
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