Sunday, July 17, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: Why Krishna is called Bhagavan not others though Gita says Vasudeva Sarvam

 

Question is: Paramatma is said to be without a beginning (free of birth) and
without an end. What is the appropriateness of celebrating the birth of Lord
Krishna (Janmashtami)? If it is appropriate then Shri Krishna was born and He
who is born is bound to die with certainty (Gita 2:27) then why has Shri
Krishna been called Bhagwaan in Sadhak Sanjivani by Swamiji? Why has Arjuna
also not been called Bhagavan? when it has been said that the essence of Gita
is "Vasudeva Sarvam" (Gita 7/19)

Kindly please explain

HINDI


prashna hai : paramaatmaako anaadi (aadi-rahit yaa ajanmaa) tathaa anant
(ant-rahit) kahaa gayaa hai. shree krishna-janmaashtamee manaanekaa kyaa
auchitya hai? Yadi auchitya hai to shree krishna janm huaa aur jo janmataa hai
usakee mrityu nishchit hai [geetaa 2 : 27] fir shree krishnako swameejeene
saadhaka-sanjeevaneemen 'bhagavaan' kyon kahaa hai? arjunako bhee bhagavaan kyon
naheen kahaa? jabaki kahaa hai ki geetaakaa saar hai, 'vaasudev: sarvam'.
[geetaa 7 : 19].
kripayaa samajhaayen.
savinay,
saadhaka.    

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Lord Krishna in te human form is not what we refer to s Bhagwan. It is the realosed soul that enjoys a permanent equanimity existence that drove Krishna's huma form which is referred to as Bhagwan. In the Upanishads, God is the ultimate source that was never born and never ceased to exist.  The soul that realises this fully mat drive a human pr an animal or tree exists ain and merges with God. In fact there is no distiction beteen thar fully realised soul and God: they are the same and one thing. Lord Krishna's soul was in that State and hence nothing but God or Bhagwan. We do not celebrate Lord Krisna's birthday as the birthday of God. But celebrate the birthdy of the lving form of the Soul that is God. This is only to remind that the Soul of Lord Krihna is the ideal soul existence to us, We worhip various idols is not that we worhsip the idol but we worship the God who was never born and ceased to exist. Unless we keep in mind the defintion of Bagwan or God, clearly, we will always get confused. Basudeb Sen

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KrishNa ... God ... Vaasudeva ... All ...
 
KrishNa, God, Vaasudeva and Sarvam (and anything else) are all synonymous, meaning the same which remains eternally transcendental to all meanings ever. If any one is considered different from any other, everything is missed categorically! 
 
I do not understand the context in which the seeker is raising this doubt that Gita could have suggested that "KrishNa is God" and "Vaasudeva is ALL" would mean different! If one is considered above other or different from other, BOTH WILL FALL APART LEAVING THE CONCEIVER IN ONE'S OWN OBLIVION OF IGNORANCE.
 
Therefore, my humble request to the humble seeker is to reconsider the very doubt in its very core.
 
Respects.
 
Naga Narayana.

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RAM RAM Jee Shree Ramjee, kindly present this with all bold and italics so that it may get finalized soon.
Sadhakas have said :
Shree Prasad A Iragavarapu jee
Since He is eternal and Knower of everything, He is Bhagwan, the supreme personality of Godhead.
If Gita 7 : 19 is true, how others are different from Shree Krishna? If Gita 7 : 19 is true, why a Godhead comes into existence when already God IS?
This is beyond comprehension how others (whom sadhakas don't call Bhagwan) are different from Vasudev when there is none else as per Gita 7 : 19.
Raja jee
Think well before questioning God's quality compared to normal human being.
Sadhaka misunderstood the very question. God's qualities are not being questioned here. Question is IF GITA 7 : 19 IS TRUE, HOW AND WHY ALL OTHERS [WHO ARE NOT TERMED GOD] ARE DIFFERENT FROM VASUDEV?
Hari Shankar Deo jee
... when forces of evil become unbearable ...
Please elaborate how evil forces are different from Vasudev, if Gita 7 : 19 is true.
Pratap Bhatt jee
Krishna's self and body are the same.
Question is : If Gita 7 : 19 is not false, how are self and body of others [other than Krishna] are different [not same]? If there exists anything different from Vasudev, Gita 7 : 19 is not true then. Please take it easy on Sadhaka's lower level of understanding and explain your answer.
Gaurav Mishra jee
According to your say Krishna and Arjun were (or are) different as Krishna didn't forget and Arjun forgot.
Question was (and still is) : If Gita 7 : 19 is not false, how Krishna and Arjun were (or are) different?
Tejguru says,"only Eeshwar IS. Ascertain if you are or not." Here Question is : when only Eeshwar exists, how do you differentiate yourself from Sirshree? Please answer.
Dr Rajeev Agnihotri jee
Paramatma is said to be without a beginning (without birth) and without an end.
Is there a proof? Give details.
Respected Sir, if you could tell in detail the meaning you meant by the word PARAMATMA (used by you) the proof will be relayed to you. It is there with all reality as learnt from Swamijee.
Astu.
Savinay,
Saadhaka. 
 
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Hari Om

This is how the truth of Vasudev Sarvam gets into 'shrutivipratipanna' ( in the web of debates..BG 53 ). Such discussions are strong obstacles to sadhak. Bhagwaan is not the term which has alone been ascribed to Lord Krishna. Lord Rama or Siva or Ganesha can also be called Bhagwan. So what? How the truth of Vasudev Sarvam gets vitiated or established or de-established thereby?

A child does not 'know' as to how the mother is his/her own. He/she 'believes' only. Strong /unshakeable belief...mother is mine. However she is..she is mine! That is it ..!

Vasudev Sarvam ..the true meaning of it is ...what we can get by prayer in front of and from idol of Lord or from Lord Himself , the same thing we can get by praying to and in front of a torn cloth or log of wood or a pillar..! Only He exists. There is no other existence. He only has become many from one...JUST AS a seed turns into a tree with many branches, flowers, characteristics. 

The argument given by Savinay Sadhak and issue raised does not take a sadhak anywhere. God/Bhagwaan/ Paramatma is not subject matter of KNOWLEDGE ...it is entirely a subject matter of BELIEF. Where is knowledge in belief ? Just Accept: I am God's, only God is mine, nothing else is mine. 

Who says by celebrating Krishna Janmashtami it is proved that Krishna 'born' ? 'Janma karma me divyam..Gita' ..His birth and karma are 'divya' (alaukik / divine) ! Why get into wisdom of that? Gita Jayanti does not indicate Gita was 'born/written' on that day. It 'incarnated' that day. It existed but got available this day to general...! There is a difference between taking birth and reincarnating. Krishna is incarnation. Certain elements are 'anaadi' (eternal)..God, Jeeva, Gita, Vedas etc are ETERNAL ..sanatan !! Hence why get into this? Baba...believe in Him ..don't waste your time in acquiring 'knowledge' about Him. He is beyond knowledge.
Why Arjuna was not called Bhagwaan in Gita , why Lord Krishna was so called? How does this Q help sadhak?
This is 'shrutivipratipanna' within the meaning of Gitaji.

I can explain but it achieves nothing in the end except wastage of time.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
"Ajo pi sann avyayatma,
Bhutanam isvaro pi san,
Prakrtim svam adhisthaya,
Sambhavamy atma mayaya "
( Gitaji, 4,6)
Which means,
' Although I am unborn, My transcendental body never deteriorates ,and I am the
Lord of living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original
transcendental form. '
Atmamayaya means His causeless Mercy.
In the next slokam He tells us as to why He is born. Lord Krishna says,
'Wherevere and whenever there is a decline in religious practice and a rise of
irreligion, at that time I descend Myself.'
( Bhagavad Gita 4,7).
Since He is eternal and Knower of everything, He is Bhagavan, the supreme
personality of Godhead.
Lord Krisna says in Gitaji,
"Pandavanam Dhananjayah"
( Gitaji 10, 37).
Which means ' of the Pandavas I am the Dhananjayah. '

Dhananjaya is another name for Arjuna.


Krishna and Arjuna are called 'Nara Narayan '

Thank You.
Hare krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

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its true that every thing is god
it was perfectly reflected in Prabhu shri krishna
Pandavas fought for their right
not for well being of world community, that means they were selfish to some
extent
thats the difference between GOD and JEEV
Even hough every one is god why do u respect ur parents and not a donkeys or
dogs
because u r selfish to that extent
Think well before questioning on Gods quality compared to normal human being
thanx
Raja

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Swami Ramsukhdas and other great saints agree that Krishna comes to earth in His
form which is eternal (sat), full of knowledge (chid) and full of bliss
(ananda). That is difference between us and Krishna. Our body and self are
different and we misidentify self with body. Krishna's self and body are same.
Swamiji mentioned this point in "ek sant ki vasiyat". Therefore, Krishna is
referred as "svayam bhagavan" in Bhagavatam and "bhagavan" or "vasudeva" in
Gita.

It is important to understand that the son of Devaki is the Supreme Personality
of Godhead or Bhagavan. This doubt is resolved in Ram Charit Manas. Parvati
asked if the son of Dasaratha is the Supreme Brahman. Shivaji is clear that Ram,
who is the son of Dasarath, is the Supreme Brahman.

I will suggest serious sadhaks to read Ram Charit Manas to resolve this doubt.
Tulsidasji says that one needs long sat-sanga to resolve such doubts. That
satsanga is reading Ramayana (Ramcharit Manas).

At His feet in service,
G B
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This is in reply to Savinay Sadhaka. We are not the body. We are the Soul. The
Soul has always existed and will always exist. It has no beginning or end. What
is Parmatma? Parmatma is a collection of great Atmas or Souls. From time when
the forces of evil become unbearable Parmatma takes human birth to destroy them
and show us the right path. You must have heard of Dasavatar. This is nothing
new. Read our ancient books and you will find all the answers.
Hari Shanker Deo

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Dear SadhakJi, I am going to response to the remarks made for Pratap Bhatt here.

To me, Bhagvan is the same as God, Ishwara, Paramatma, Atma, Brahman, Self,
Supreme Consciousness, Awareness, Truth, Reality, Sat-Chit-Ananda. They all
point to the same experience, not to a thing, or to an object defined or
interpreted by thought, but the Direct Nameless Experience of Just Being, which
is Consciousness-I AM. Utterly quiet mind hears this as continuous sound of AUM!
This is the intimation to the seeker that he is Brahman, which is Bhagvan too!
All names really refer to this ONE Undivided Reality of Being! Word "Bhagvan"
describes it better!

All Wisdom, Intelligence flows from Brahman to such Being we call Bhagvan which
is Aishwarya(Bhagas) - Sampatti or Wealth of all kinds. Although He is called
Bhagvan, but He is one with Bhagas, not separate! The entire Vishwa is Him only!
However, it takes a body which is Prakriti nature(also God) for this wisdom to
flow, and we call such a body as Bhagvan or Saint or Sage, or Rishi etc for
communication and to teach people.
So, when a body-mind of Krishna speaks, it is Wisdom speaks, but we say Bhagvan
speaks taking that body-mind as Bhagvan which is to bestow highest honor,
reverence to Him!

For Bhagvan or Wisdom to speak, such a one has to Realize through direct
experience that Only Paramatma-Tattva or Supreme Consciousness is the Reality
and knowingly abide as such.
Thus, Bhagvan or Paramatma is essentially this Intelligence, Wisdom, Love,
Peace, Beauty, Compassion only! Body-mind just executes actions from such
Wisdom. That is why Bhagvan is non-doer inspite of doing everything and we
assume doer-ship without doing!

To me, Swamiji has implied this at various places in his books, and talks. Only
if we make a distinction between Bhagvan, Brahman or Supreme Consciousness,
which is Wisdom spoken through a body, you will find Swamiji is not telling it
explicitly as such!

If, as we say, "Vasudeva Servameti" who else speaks in all speaking, but the
only Speaker there IS, Vasudeva, Bhagvan as called by Veda Vyasa!
I cannot emphasize more, that what we call God or Bhagvan is essentially
Intelligence, Creativity, Beauty, Splendor, Love, Devotion, Humility, Peace,
Protection that flows through that mortal body-mind, and also from the Nature.
These are manifest as Universal aspects we symbolize as Devatas, too!
These creates(Brahma), sustains(Vishnu) and dissolves(Rudra or Shiva) the
apparent diversity we call World, Jagat!
That is why everything as is, is God only, is the vision of Rishis of Upanishads
and Gita!
Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

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Dhanyawad,

TejGuru says that "Self and the MSY(Mano-Sharir-Yantra i.e. Body Mind
Instrument) are separate.

The body is a cause to fulfill Shri Krishna's purpose of arrival in his own MSY.
We do celeberate Shri Krishna's birthday but actually the birth of his MSY is
celeberated which is a nimitta (medium). Shri Krishna Never born because he
existed from the begining of the begning itself. Bhagwan never forgot his
existence even in his body. And that's why he is called bhagwan.
But Arjun forgot that even in his MSY only Krishna exists. He forgot every thing
what Shri Krishna had to remind him thru shriGitopadesh.

Sewa ka mauka mila isliye dhanyawad.

Dhanyawad,

Gaurav Mishra

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Question is: Paramatma is said to be without a beginning (free of birth) and
without an end.

***Is there any Proof ? If yes Give details.

Dr. Rajeev Agnihotri

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Sadhakaas have said :

Samudrala Krishna :
True Paramaatma is without a beginning and an End. Kindly differentiate between
'True Paramaatmaa' and 'Untrue or False Paramaatmaa', if there are more than one
Paramaatmaas.
Remember Paramaatma has Bhaga here indescribable (Paramaatmaa) is described as
having limited (six) attributes to differentiate Paramaatmaa from Bhagavaan.
Kindly specify the origin of existence of Bhagavaan (when there existed nothing,
exists nothing and shall never exist nothing EXCEPT Paramaatmaa; so he is
Bhagavaan.
Veda Vyaasa was Bhagavaan. Swameejee has addressed Vedvyaas as Maharshi, NOT
Bhagavaan [Saadhaka-Sanjeevanee page 1 line 8].
But Bhagavaan does not mean Parmaatma. Kindly elaborate the basis of this
statement, 'Bhagavaan doesn't mean Paramaatmaa.' if Geetaa 7 : 19 is NOT false.

Pratap Bhatt :
So, in Gita Vyasji says "Shree Bhagvanu vachah"(Shree Bhagva is speaking), it
means Brahman, Wisdom, speaking through Krishna's body-mind. This is written
'nowhere' in Sadhaka-Sanjeevanee and in next edition of this Great Teekaa, this
statement must be included everywhere, wherever Shree Krishna said anything,
ONLY IF this statement has some basis helpful in Understanding Geetaa.

Basudeb Sen
The reference is to Bhagwan All Mighty who exists in everything and contains
everything. When this Bhagwan All Mighty [a new word here when we are talking
about Paramaatmaa and Bhagavaan] exists in everything and contains everything,
HOW IS IT that so called unrealised soul is separate (not inseparable) from this
Bhagwan All Mighty?
The individual realised soul that experiences this is conceptually in a state
indistinguishable and inseparable from Bhagwan. Lord Krishna had been in that
State even if was physically seen as a mortal human body. So, he is the Bhagwan.
Arjun and others were not in that state of complete and comprhensive realisation
and therefore were not referred to as Bhagwan All Mighty.
Accordingly, all non-realised, non-liberated souls driving human innumerable
human bodies have the fundamental duty and right to observe the birthdays of
whomever they like, love and follow. Kindly specify the TOTAL number of
'realised' and 'unrealised' souls at that time (when Geetaa came into existence)
quoting the source also (name, page etc) as in Geetaa 2 : 24 it has been said
'sarvagat'. How can several souls be 'sarvagat'? Also Geetaa 7 : 19 is there.
Hari Shanker Deo
His life and times show that he was a Parmatma
This 'a Paramaatma' is beyond comprehension. Is there anything else which is NOT
Paramaatmaa? Where did it come from? When did it come into existence? Please
elaborate.

HUMBLE SUBMISSION :
All statements discriminating anything from Paramaatmaa need basis and
explanation to disprove Geetaa 7 : 19.
Savinay,
Saadhaka.

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Hari SharaNam,

Similar doubt (APARAM BHAVATO JANM ...GitaJi 4/4) was raised by Arjun when Lord
said that he imparted the same knowledge to the Sun before. If anyone has read
Bhagavad Gita honestly, this kind of doubt should not have come at all.
Throughout Bhagavad Gita, it is clearly stated that Sri KrishNa (the teacher of
Arjun) is referred as PARAM/Supreme BRAHM/God/Bliss (10/12), PARAM DHAAM/abode
(10/12), PARAM PAVITRA/purifier (10/12), SHAASWAT/Eternal PURUSHHA/Person
(10/12), AADI/Primeval DEVA/God (10/12), AJA/Unborn (10/12), VIBHU/Omnipresent
(10/12), PRUSHHOTTAM/Supreme Person (10/15,8/1), BHOOTBHAAVAN/source of all the
beings (10/15), BHOOTESH/Lord of the beings (10/15), DEVDEVA/God of Gods(10/15),
JAGATPATI/Lord of the world (10/15), YOGESWAR/Lord of all the Yogas (18/78,
11/9), PARAM AKSHAR (11/18), SHAASWAT DHARMGOPTAA (11/18), SANAATAN/Eternal
PURUSHHA/Person (11/18), PITA/father of the world (9/17,11/43), MATA/mother of
the world(9/17), DHAATAA of the world (9/17), GATI/ultimate goal (9/18),
PRABHU/Master(9/18), GURU/teacher of the world (11/43) PRANAV/OMKAAR (10/17,
7/8, 10/25), ANANT (11/37), ISWAR (4/6,9/11), AATMAA/PARMAATMAA (10/20,9/5),
VISHNU (10/21), SHANKAR (10/23), RAAM(10/31), VAASUDEVA(10/37), KRISHNA
(6/39,18/78), MAHAKAAL (11/32, 10/33), ..............!

Nothing is beyond him (MATTAAH PARATARAM NAANYAT..7/7, ABHYADHIKA KUTONYAH
-11/43)) and nothing is like him (NA TVAT SAMA... 11/43). Not only that
he is the PRATISHTHAA/abode of the BRHAM, AVYAAYA AMRRIT, SHAASWAT DHARM,
SUKHA, PARAM NIRVAAN SHANTI (14/27, 6/15).

If this doubt does not go away, 9/11 (AVAJAANANTI MAAM MOODHA..), 10/14 (NA HI
BHAGAVAN VYAKTIM VIDU ..), 7/24 (AVYAKTAM VYAKTI MAAPANNAM), 11/50 (BHOOTVAA
PUNAR SAUMYA VAPUR ..), 11/51 (DRISTVEDAM MAANUSHHAM ROOPAM..) can help you.

ShankarachaaryaJi , just after Arjun's question in 4/4, says that Lord's answer
in 4/5 is for all those MOORKHAANAAM/fools who think he was not the Supreme.

YAA VAASUDEVE ANEESHWARAASARVAGYAASHANKAA MOORKHAANAAM, TAAM PARIHARAN SHRI
BHAGAVAANUVAACH


Regarding VAASUDEVA SARVAM ITI, it is the ultimate claim of the MAHAATAMAA
/great realized souls (GYAANI-BHAKT) in rarity (SU-DURLABHA). But, from the
perspective of God, it is only GOD/VAASUDEVA (MATAAH PARATARAM NAANYAT 7/7; MAYI
SARVAM IDAM -7/7; MATAAM SARVAM PRAVARTATE -10/8) which includes Arjun too
(PAANDAVAANAAM DHANANJAYA..10/37). Arjun can only realize this (NASTO MOHA;
SMRITI LABDHA, STHITOSMI -18/73) and serve the Supreme (KARISHYE VANCHAM TAVA
-18/73) being his instrument (NIMITTA MAATRAM-11/33) who is none other than the
Supreme's own higher nature (PARA PRAKRRITI -9/5).

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey
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dear sadaks,
the birth of any godly/divines is not like human birth. sadahaka has forgoten
that same Sri Krishna tells Arjuna that HE comes to this earth by HIS will and
whereas Arjuna comes by karma. Bagavan is said, " Akarmanaya- Akilakaranaya-
Niskaranaya". Humans are only Karmanaya. The divine soul enters the body only at
ITS will and knowledge well knowing all the past present and future and to
stabilize Dharma few days before delivery. Whereas a ordinary Jeeva enters
mothers womb somewhere near 5 th month. Ex: Among 63 savite saints Nayamars-
Thirugyana Sambanthar at age of 5 could see GOD. Among 12 Vainavite saints
Namalwar had divines Knowledge of God (Paramathuma) at age of 2. Jada Bharath
and Prahalad in Bagavath got gyan in Mother womb itself. Sri Vishnu tells Mother
Durga to transfer Jeeva from Devaki Womb and place in Rohini Womb, and Sri
Vishnu says HE is take Devaki womb as next. It will be very surprising that
Bagavan HIMSELF follows karmic laws here. Another thing in Christianity- Jesus
birth is predicted and jesus was born to Virgin Mary. Same things in Maha
Bharat- Widows were blessed with children without bidily contact by Rishi. Our
scientific knowledge is nothing when compared to scientific knowledge of GOD.
When to be born and when to go back to Vaikunt perfectly decided by Sri Vishnu.
So HE is free from birth or death. Question was,"" What is the appropriateness
of celebrating the birth of Lord Krishna (Janmashtami)?"". Why do we celebrate
our birthday or our children? To remember- What is different.
We celebrate Gandhi birthday to remember that he got us freedom. Same Janmastami
to remember Sri Krishna teachings. Arjuna is son of Demi God. Those are like us
but better in quality of living. So they are NOT Bagavan, Bagavan means ONE who
creates, and protects. Aruna can do nothing.
B.Sathyanarayan- Chennai
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Dear Geeta Sadhakaas, Namaskar,

Everybody should, please, bear in mind that the Great Thinkers of the Past
(GTPs) wanted to lay down certain benevolent procedures for the benefit of the
Society, so that mankind be long lived, healthy, cultured, educated, well
behaved. Why they wanted the mankind to be so? Because whosoever life form is
born on this Planet Earth should lead a peaceful life till its death.

Now, if I desire to tell people something for their benefit, I should tell them
my thoughts in a language which they will understand or I should be able to
create a confidence in them, so that they will believe in whatever I say. That
is how the religious scriptures came into existence. Everybody believed in the
scriptures without questioning or without having any doubt.

Later on, the scriptures were modified by the followers and religious leaders to
increase their following. That is how so many mythological stories sprung up.

We should appreciate that these efforts were very successful and guided the
Human Cultures to religious paths for thousands of Earth years. Millions of
devotees had mental satisfaction to live happily and die peacefully.

Geeta also is no exception. So if you study the scriptures with this
perspective, many of your doubts will be cleared.

Gee Waman

-------------------------------------------

This is simply belief and nothing else. The majority population of the World
does not recognize this .
Belief is generated by various parameters over a period of time.

Dr. Rajeev Agnihotri

---------------------------------------------

My Friend,

I am happy with your question. True Paramaatma is without a beginning and an
End. Sree Krishna, born as the son of Devaki, brought up by the ever scared
Yasoda is not Paramaatma who has transfered him(IT) self from somewhere to
Vraja. For a certain material purpose an entity with some qualities, as are
necessary to achieve that purpose someone is born. "Sambhavaami Atma Maayayaa"
does not mean I am born; but suggest that "by my intention such an entity is
born or comes into existence." As soon as Krishna or Rama came into this world,
they became worldly beings like any body except for some special features.
Hence, as you rightly said, Krishna had an end, he died through an arrow. Rama
Died. It is not the Paramaatma that "died". It is the being that was born at the
behest of Paramatma to achieve a purpose that died. As I said, Krishna was a
being with birth and death like you and me; but Krishna and such others had or
have developed certain special qualities and hence they are not like me, say.

The set of six qualities: Sourya, Teja, Veerya, Bala, Ksahma, Dnyana and Sama is
called Bhaga. These are the special qualities that distinguish people like
Krishna, Vyaasa, Agastya and many like them from us ordinary beings. people
having Bhaga as their nature are Bhagavaan. Bhagavaan does not mean "GOD" or
Paramaatma. Have you read Raamaayana by Vaalmeeki (Sanskrit). In Yuddha kaamda
sage Agastya approache a worried Rama and teache shim "Aditya Hridaya". Look at
it, it says "Agstyo Bhagavaan Rishih". Agastya had Bhaga and hence he was
qualified to the honor Bhgavaan. People like Arjuna did not have many of these
six qualities. Arjuna shivered at the sight of Bheeshma and others. How can he
be Bhagavaan? Veda Vyaasa was Bhagavaan.

Unfortunately, due to false teachings by self styled Gurus and Babas and Svamis,
Bhagavaan has becomee the exclusive of or synonymous to God, who is then dubbed
as Paramaatma. Remember Paramaatma has Bhaga; so he is Bhagavaan. But Bhagavaan
does not mean Parmaatma. I repeat
Samudrala Krishna

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Very natural and important question put by Sadhakji for all of us!
First of all, Arjuna is not called Bhagvan for the same reason we are not called
Bhagvan even as "All there is, IS God, Vasudevah Sarvameti" is the Truth. It is
The only Truth, all else is nama-rupa(Mithya) superimposed on IT! However, This
statement is inspired by the Vision based on Realization of Truth of oneself,
as Self, The Being of all beings, and is true for him/her only!
From the questions of Arjuna to this far in Gita(7:19), it appears that he has
yet to realize it as we all do!This experience is unlike all other experiences
by mind. It comes from the Grace of God to those sincere seekers of Truth as
experiential understanding(Anubhutirupa) leading to this Vision, a spontaneous
outpouring of hearts of a Gyani Bhakta! Mind just expresses it to communicate!

Krishna is both, historical one who is born to Devaki and Vasudev, brought up by
Yashoda and Nanda in Gokula having playful childhood, etc., and, also the One
who Realized Being Brahman, The Existence Absolute, of Sat-Chit-Ananda nature!
Sakshat Brahman playing in the Aangan(front yard) of Nand-Yashoda's cottage!
We call such a one as God Incarnate, all Powerful Intelligence taking up a
mortal body. It is to bring out the humility in us to surrender our
individuality/limitations and Realize the Truth of our ONENESS called God in all
beings, leading us to shores of fulfillment and joy. For this reason we
celebrate the Janmashtami to inspire us to Realize our Sat-Chit-Ananda nature!
It may not be understood as such though!

So, in Gita Vyasji says "Shree Bhagvanu vachah"(Shree Bhagva is speaking), it
means Brahman, Wisdom, speaking through Krishna's body-mind. As mortal body of
Krishna was born, it passed away in the sense it merged back to its source(is
not death really), the 5 Great Elements from which it came into Being upon
birth. Body-mind is the TV channel, as though, through which God manifests
entire Cosmos for Divine Leela, forgetting first and then realizing "Vasudevah
Sarvameti"!

Upanishad says "Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman". Such a Knower is called
Bhagvan or God". This Knower, again, is not body-mind based person, rather,
every action of such a body-mind sees God in every being! He/she considers they
are all Him and deals with them guided by Dharma for the protection of
righteousness and greater good! He/she teaches this knowledge to others for
their emancipation!
In our time, Ramana Maharshi is also called Bhagvan Shri Ramana.
I would not hesitate to call our Swamiji as Bhagvan too!
More on "Vasudevah Sarvameti" realization later if interest persists .......
Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

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Apparently very interesting and intelligent question. Why should one call a
mortal Krishna Bhagwan and discriminate against all other mortals like Arjuna?
After all, Bhagwan exists in every little or big thing in this Creation and
every little or big thing in the Creation exists in God!
When Krishna is referred to as Bhagwan, it is not the physical body of the human
being named Krishna that is what is referred to. The reference is to Bhagwan All
Mighty who exists in everything and contains everything. The individual realised
soul that experiences this is conceptually in a state indistinguishable and
inseparable from Bhagwan. Lord Krishna had been in that State even if was
physically seen as a mortal human body. So, he is the Bhagwan. Arjun and others
were not in that state of complete and comprhensive realisation and therefore
were not referred to as Bhagwan All Mighty.

It is a matter of human convenience to distinguish the individual soul that is
liberated from the illusion of Maya through complete realisation of the Self:
Krishna was in a state of equanimity, free of sensual desires and beyond
pleasures and pains of material life, without greed, anger or attachment and yet
with flowing love for all others seen as an integral part of his own exiostence
(Biswarup). Bhagwan refers to that state on consciousness. That Consciousness is
what was never born and always existed and the cause of every other thing in
this Creation. This therefore does not have a birthdate: it does not await a
birthday for celebration as it is always in the midst of celebration. But those
who are still under the bondage of illusion (Maya) suffer from their attachment
tp sensual, materialistic ideas of birthday celebrations. That is how Bhawan
made this Creation: all most all elements in this Creation would not be in the
State of Consciousness and liberation from the bondage of illusion. Accordingly,
all non-realised, non-liberated souls driving human innumerable human bodies
have the fundamental duty and right to observe the birthdays of whomever they
like, love and follow.

This is simple. By naming Krishna as Bhagwan one gets to know what combination
of attributes make a human being merge in God and what does not. Vasudeva Sarvam
is known and recommended by many: the one whose life esistence is a running
commentary of experience in constant, continuous practice of Vasudeva Sarvam is
referred to as Bhagwan by the sainsts who composed the Gita in human words.
Basudeb Sen

----------------------------

India is a land of rishis, munis and avtaars. Besides the religion followed by
the majority, it is the home of Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. Various holy men
also preached a variety of faiths and gathered followers. It is said in the
Geeta that from time to time God comes to earth to teach the righteous path. One
such avtaar or a person of divine birth was Krishna. His life and times show
that he was a Parmatma and remains so to millions of his devotees in this world.
Many temples, books, bhajans and temples are dedicated to Him. His immortal
message of the Geeta could only be that of the Divine. No ordinary mortal could
create such a body of work. Arjun was also a great man but had human failings.
Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------------------

Paramatma has no begining and no end, that is the reason why Paramatma is called
Paramatma. Paramatma takes the form of Avatara like Bamana, Rama, Srikrishna,
Kalki in order to come to mortal world. Avataras come in our world for specific
task, once the task is completed they leave the mortal world. By celebrating the
birth of Avatara, we just try to respect the Infinite(Paramatma) when he took
the form of Avatara. Arjun was a devotee of Bhagwaan but he is not Bhagwaan.

savinay,
saadhaka.(anjishnu )

--------------------------------

The very meaning of the word Krishna is attraction.He is the ultimate towards
whom whole phenomenon ploughs and the rest of all are but actors at his
influence and are known as gopis.Meerabai has rightly said that He is the only
male who charms and the rest of all are females worked by His attraction.
subhashtewari
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