Sunday, July 31, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: Why Should Suicide be Called Aatma Hatya?

 

SHREE HARI RAM RAM

Thank you all ! This concludes this topic.
GITA TALK MODERATORS, RAM RAM
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As for aathma [SOUL ] doesn't have birth and death. then why should suicide called aathma hatya???

"Basavaraj G"
---------------------------------------------

Dear sadaks,
Athuma is placed in this body for specific time (Number of years/days/hours/minutes). Before that specific time if one should commit suicide, then that Athuma remains on this earth with great sufferings. It (Jeevathuma) will have all desires but NO body to satisfy its need. The human body consists of Gyanedriyams, Karmendriyams, Buddhi, Manas, within this is Pramathuma, Jeevathuma. Once one suicides the Paramathuma is not in dead matter. Jeevathuma left alone to be here. So the suffering of this Jeevathuma is called suicide. Details in Katopanashid, Kapila Geetha, etc. But if one wants to know further about this, then just pick up the portion of Gokarn part in Srimath Bagavath. Again murdering someone is NOT suicide to the one got murdered. Here again the total 3 Karma palas of the Victim is transferred to the murderer.
B.Sathyanarayan

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As I understand it, Atma-Hatya is Self-Killing literally, or suicide...Atma is used in the context of SELF...! !
GOOD LUCK !
Yogesh Lajmi

-----------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Basavaraji,

Yes we all know that Atma cannot be killed (Gita: 2/23-24) then why killing
one's own body is called 'Atma Hatya'-- is a good question! It is not known
since when but it is customary to call taking one's own life as the act of 'Atma
Hitya'.

The reason for calling suicide as 'Atma-hatya' could be that since by killing
this body one has definitely eliminated the potential opportunity of realizing
the SELF (Self Realization of Atman) in this present life. Out of His grace only
that God has given this precious body with the single objective of attaining
one's true Self or realize God, by suicide the golden chance of experiencing the
Atman in this life thus is gone.

To assume identity with the body is to commit suicide; to degrade himself and
put himself into the cycle of birth and death (Gita: 13/28)

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Suicide, call it what you wish, is, the murder of oneself, a terrible thing, the
waves of pain and suffering that is the legacy of the act is almost beyond
measure.
How can one escape from a situation that is self created, by killing oneself,
one compounds the situation for future births, that is plain to comprehend.
I have in my life prevented two suicides, both these souls came to me for help,
at first I was annoyed, "Who am I that they came to me?", but I had wise
council, and all I had to do was show them love. Another we (my wife and I)
failed, she was introduced to us, but no one told us of her dilemma, we were in
a hurry, I did not see the pain in her eyes, I should have, a beautiful young
life taken by her own hand, it still pricks me.
We all can comprehend at a deep level the tragic sin that suicide is, the
samskaras of the next life will be pregnant with that act of self murder, and
the unresolved issues, of that truncated life.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.

------------------------------------
Atma has several meanings depending on the context. Atma is as you say Soul; but
it also means Mana (mind). It is also used to point out self like "myself" or
just self. Atma hatya is not killing of Atma but killing one self. Better svayam
hatya. Nobody says Atma can be killed. You are confused about Vibhakti in
splitting (vigraha) of the samaasa Atmahatya.

Samudrala Krishna

--------------------------------------------

Hari Om

This Q is not at all worth deliberating. It does not make any difference whether
the act of destroying the human life is called as suicide or atma hatya or
sharir hatya or body murder or by any other name. What is 'suicide' in essence
and effect is important not as to how it is referred in vocabulary.

Still let me tell that the correct answer is: Yes...the suicide should be called
'atma-hatya'. If the answer is : No , because the soul is immortal, imperishable
etc .. then inspite of that being a fact , still that answer is incorrect
because the person who commits suicide has not believed the truth as such.
He/she still has disrespected/ mis-utilised the gift so benevolently given to
him/her for his/her benefit by Paramatma and effectively has caused the murder
of that benevolence/affection of God. That is murder in its own way.. and
rightly so. Moreover, the right of the soul to get a future body even, what to
talk of getting human body again , stands forfeited/withdrawn ( Scriptures say
that such soul loiters body-lessly for ages and eons in the form of spirits and
ghosts etc)) ..and that forfeiture of right is nothing less than murder..in
essence and in effect.

So there is nothing wrong,.. nothing at all wrong, .. in stating or calling
suicide as 'self murder' . 'Atma-hatya' in essence means not the murder of
'soul' (atmaa) but the murder of 'self' (atma) ! Atma-hatya means lowering the
self. Let sadhaks not go un-necessarily into intellectual discussions but
concentrate on 'essence' ...'result'...'effect'. There is nothing wrong in
saying it as 'atma-hatya' and even Lord Krishna uses similar expression in Gita
when He says in BG 13: 28 -na hinsyatmanatmaanam. Here causing violence to soul
(self) is done by believing the birth,death of the body as the birth, death of
self and that is effectively and essentially murdering one's own self by one's
own self only.

Lastly, invariably, a suicider ends the life under sway of the Gunas of Prakruti
(anger/frustration/ ignorance/stupidity/ helplessness before circumstances/
cowardice etc) and thus soul remains associated with Prakruti. Invariably,
he/she regrets doing suicide before the death actually comes. Actually, he/she
dies because the steps already taken become irreversible. He/she thus dies not
wilfully but in effect with a 'desire to live' !

All said and done, such Qs do not actually lead you to anywhere. Because they
un-necessarily bring the basic characteristics of immortality etc of soul into
focus, which focus ultimately gives erroneous results and in the end must take
the direction of ONLY justifying an otherwise very ghor karma (heinous, very
violent ) of suicide by a Jeeva. It is done by using 'words of vocabulary' as
outer guise.

Words are not at all important here. It does not make any difference actually as
to how this act is called or referred in words. It is a plain murder of
soul/self believing the affinity of self/soul with body. The body gets murdered,
actually, but in essence it is self getting violent against itself.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------

Atmya and Atman are not the same words. Atman means Soul, although sometimes it
may mean the self in myself, themself or your self. But Atmya means the
self in your self, myself ot themselves. One can kill one self, I can kill
myself, you can kill yourself, they can kill themselves - through suicide or
aacts of follishness or taking high risk. That may be called Atmyahatya. But no
one kill or cause death to Atman as Atman is in ceaseless existence - never born
and never dead.
Words can cause problems and can be used to confuse oneself and others. But
everyone knows that the Truth, Atmya Hatya is not the killing of the atman.
Atman is not identifiable with any particular individual or human being - this
is the eternal soul not divisible into x's soul and Y's soul. As soon as you
make soul of self divisible into different persons, you are not talking of the
Atman or Soul that is eternal and never born nor dies.
This is so simple to people who are logical that words cannot create confusion.
Basudeb Sen

---------------------------------------------------

So students should study the sacred books and keep company with great souls. The
company they keep can root out such sins (evils)
these words of Swami ji are GREAT & to be FOLLOWED
so
say
HariBol HariBol HariHariBo

Badri Taneja

----------------------------------------------

Atma originally means "self", as in "he washes himself". Hence Atmakatha,
"self-story" = "autobiography". Hence the original meaning of Adhy-atm-ika,
"caused by oneself", as in self-inflicted diseases (e.g. lung cancer for a
smoker). And hence Atmahatya, "self-killing", suicide. It meant "personality" or
"own body", the meaning of "ultimate conscious core" is derived from a metaphor:
just as your clothes and possessions can be "peeled off" until you only have
yourself (i.e. your body) left, so likewise, you can peel off your emotions,
memories etc. as non-essentials, as objects of your consciousnes which it can
take up and also discard, leaving only the subject of consciousness as the "real
self".

Best regards,

KE (Koenraad Elst)

Question: A few students commit suicide, while failing in an examination. Why?
How to solve this problem?

Swamiji: They commit suicide because their failure is an obstacle to their
honor and praise that they desire. There is no joy in commiting suicide. Those
who try to commit suicide but somehow escape it explain that suicide involves
great suffering. He who commits suicide commits the deadly sin of murdering a
human being and in future he has to suffer the worst tortures. So students
should study the sacred books and keep company with great souls. The company
they keep can root out such sins (evils)

From: "Be Good" pg 141 in English by Swami Ramsukhdasji

Question: Whatever the man remembers at the time of death (at time of leaving
his body), that he will attain, does this ruling apply to even those that commit
suicide ?
Swamiji: Yes! it applies to those who are committing suicide as well. But for
those individuals it is very difficult for them to be in remembrance of God
(auspiciousness). This is because they are committing suicide out of deep pain
and sorrow, but their desire remains to be happy. Secondly, when the life force
is leaving them, they are repenting of their act, but they are unable to do
anything about it. Thirdly, while life force is leaving, they undergo terrible
and immense difficulties. If their inner feelings are pure, if they have faith
in God, if they desire to remember God, then they will not do this terrible
crime of committing suicide. Lastly, it is because the inner intellect is
impure, that one thinks of committing suicide. Therefore those that commit
suicide have a major downfall. Skanda Purana says that such persons do not
attain salvation for several lives to come. Therefore, intelligent people must
never ever think of suicide even out of forgetfulness or mistake.

From : Q&A with Swamiji http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/QA/QA.htm

----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------
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Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: Any role of Prarabdh in Suicide? and it's effect on Outcomes ?

 

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please be brief and respectful of all. ALSO, ONLY RESPONSES THAT ARE
NOT IN CONFLICT WITH SCRIPTURES WILL BE POSTED, TO AVOID MISLEADING ANY SADHAKS.
GITA TALK MODERATORS, RAM RAM

=============================================

Any role of Prarabdh (consequences of actions of previous births) in suicide??
If so, how does that affect the outcome of such an act?

With best wishes,
from

Rahul

----------------------------------

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Suicide is NOT based on Prarabhdha but the suicidal tendencies may be exist in the individual (due to Karmic package) but one can choose not to do!

Swamiji Maharaj groups all things in two categories:

(1) Those things which 'HAPPEN', of which we are not independent to make a choice, we have to accept things as they come and these are based onn Prarabhda. Swamiji advises for us to be always happy with what happens since we are dependent in these.
-- Gitaji reference: (2/47)

(2) Those things we decide to do in terms of 'NEW ACTIONS' which are called Purshartha, we have a choice to select whatever actions we may want to do and whichever way we might decide to do, we are totally independent. Swamiji advises us to be careful while doing new actions!

Therefore, suicides can be avoided!

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura

--------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

As a law, the role of 'Prarabdha' (destiny) ends with the 'creation of circumstances'. Destiny does not and can not force you to act or react in an X or Y way. Your response to the circumstances which got created by the operation of Law of Karma, is a FRESH karma.

It is logical too. If the response to circumstances also is 'destiny driven' then a human would get emancipated? There are two things: One- Favourable /adverse circumstances ( happenning/hona) ! This is caused by Prarabdha (Destiny /Fate) Two- A human's response to the circumstances. Here Prarabdha has no role. Purushartha ( Current /Fresh Karma) has a role there.

'Suicide' therefore is a FRESH NEW Karma by a Jeeva. Prarabdha has no role there. Purushartha has role there, and since Purushartha has a role, therefore only Jeeva incurs a sin of prematurely ending the precious human life. Else where is Q of any sin, if 'suicide' is result of 'Prarabdha' ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------------------------------

Dear sadaks,
Prarabhda Karma is that done under certain situation mostly with knowledge, has NO prayachit. So one has to undergo. But it is also said such Prarabda Karma can be reduced to very great extent by serving SAT GURU (One one available today). During the time when this Karm affects, one to remain silent without any reaction. Reaction alone again causes another Karma. Ex: Adi Sankara and Buddha was called to be beheaded. They accepted. But they were saved. Christ quite suffered crucified situation and apart he prayed that to pardon those people. He got austral body and no karmas to his balance. If someone abuses you, you are blessed if you keep quite and forget it. Because the sins in your account was taken by that man. Read Upanashids.
B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------------------------

According to me, life is a Continu-um .....and Lessons NOT willingly and cheerfully learnt ... repeat a Class !

IF the self is unable to face the circumstances confronting the self ....and has suicidal Thoughts ... it means ....that possibly, in the last Lifetime ... you had Killed your body !

SHOULD YOU ...in your last Lifetime, have bravely faced the despair around you and striven to overcome the challenges ... not only , would you have been able to do so ( with a little help from GOD ... God loves his devotees, you know ! ) ....but you would NOT be facing the trauma in this Lifetime ........

The aim of every Experience is to take you beyond the Experience ....so the Sages have said !

aum

NB
---------------------------------------------

very nice querry really when something of this type happens we just console pourselves by saying prarabhdh me hi tha ,jai shri krisha
Chaman nigam

--------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE - FOR QUESTIONER

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2. The Questioner must commit to feedback at end of discussion to bring closure
and commit to daily Gita study
3. Only one question at a time.
4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim
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Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: Sadhak - Sadhan - Sadhya (God) are indivisible - Where in Sadhak Sanjivani?

 


Ram Ram

Swamiji has stated below - Sadhak (aspirant) is indivisible with sadhan
(spiritual practice) and sadhan is indivisible with sadhya (God). Therefore
after ego is destroyed there is no sadhak. There is only saadhan (spiritual
discipline, practice). When there is only sadhan, then sadhan merges in sadhya
(God). Thereafter, besides God, nothing remains.

This is from Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu.

I don't remember coming across same kind of content in Sadhak-Sanjeevani. Can
anyone please tell where it appears in Sadhak-Sanjivani? I believe Swamiji would
have definitely mentioned in some verse.

Thanks,
Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------------------------------

Hari Om

When I read this Q from Varunji , a smile came from deep within. First, I thought I should tell him..O Divine Sadhak..Read Sadhak Sanjeevani again yourself, now that such a divine 'sphurana' has come in you because of Divine will..He wants you to search .. not make you easily available what you want, and in the process enrich you..! ( I did it so many times in the past). But then I thought , my attempting to answer him may enrich me also and may be that Divine wants me too to have a dive into the ocean of nectar...Sadhak Sanjeevani ! What do you say, Brother Mike? What a bliss it imparts, Divine Sadhaks, when you read Sadhak Sanjeevani ..!!!

So, dear sadhak...answer is ... purport on BG 5:17... "Tatparayana"...page no 363 !!! What about 5th para on page 301, Dear, "Gatsangasya" ..BG 4:23 ?

For Jnana Yoga..read Parishishta on BG 14:6...Page 899..second para. Ah.. What to talk of 13:34 ..Opening Purport words..page 889..Divine words ?

But, dear sadhak, why did such Q arise in your mind? (Do not say.."due to Divine Will" ..give some other answer) Why did you give more weightage to SS than to SSS? Vaani of Taat Shree is ananta ... Never range bound..!!! Just joking...! Actually, instantly, I admired your confidence in SS ..." I believe Swamiji would have definitely mentioned in some verse." ..this is 'belief' of a Sadhak..how can it fail?

Such Qs really provide divinity to this Forum.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------------------
: Shree Hari:
Ram Ram

14th June, 2009, Sunday; Aashaad Krishna Saptami, Vikram Samvat 2066, Ravivaar

Question – From the beginning the habit of enjoying pleasures has been formed,
how to get rid of that ?

Answer – It is essential that for getting rid of the habit of enjoying
pleasures, two things need to change – aim and ego. This human body is not for
enjoying pleasures in the least bit – "Ehin Tan Kar Phal Vishay Na Bhai" (Manas
7/44/1). Hence my aim is not enjoyment of pleasures and hoarding , but it is to
only realize Parmatma – this is what is meant by changing of aim. I am not a
bhogi (pleasure-seeker), rather I am a sadhak – this is the change of ego.

A man doesn't change his aim, nor does he change his ego, it is due to this that
his habit doesn't improve. Without improving his habit, even if he gives
lectures, even if he studies the scriptures, even if he write books, even if he
becomes a Mahatma "great soul" in the eyes of people, then too he will still
not attain salvation.

Once some men of Mathura, came to Vishraamghat at night after dinner and after
having some bhaang (kind of intoxicant) and sat in a boat. They thought that
Yamuna (river) flows towards Prayaagraaj and we also have to go to Prayaagraaj;
so just by sitting in boat we will reach Prayaagraaj. Thinking this they said
'Hail Mother Yamuna' and started rowing the boat. Night long they were rowing
the boat. In the morning they found themselves in a city. They asked one
gentlemen that which city is this? He said - It is Mathura. Then they asked that
which is this shore (ghaat)? He said Vishraamghat. They said- Ohh! We left from
Vishraamshat and we again reached Vishraamghat. How come? When they
examined,they found that they had not untied the rope and night long they were
vigorously rowing the boat. Not making a firm resolve and not changing the ego
- is like not untieing the rope.

Question - 'I am sadhak' - changing ego in this manner will make sadhak egoistic
(filled with pride), which will lead to his downfall?

Answer - By changing ego, sadhak will have the sentiment that I am a sadhak,
therefore I cannot do anything contrary to my spiritual practice. If I am a
sadhak then how can I do asaadhan (something that is against spiritual
disciplines)? I am truthful, then how can I lie? I am honest then how can I be
dishonest? Actions will be aligned with the ego. Sadhak will become egoistic
only when he compares himself with others. Looking at others makes him feel
superior, which is the cause of egoism. Looking at others' duty is not our duty,
rather it is non-duty. Therefore sadhak has to carry his own duties. Whether
others follow their duty or not, is not a sadhak's concern. Then egoism will
not come in a sadhak. Devotee considers everyone as God. Main Sevak Sacharaachar
Roop Swami Bhagwant (Manas, Kishkindha / 3) "I am a servant and God is my Master
in the form of sentient-insentient." Therefore egoism doesn't enter him. It
means that it is only due to considering others as asadhak (non-aspirant) that
it makes a sadhak egoistic. Considering others as asadhak is asaadhan (against
spiritual practice) which is the cause of downfall. Therefore sadhak should have
the sentiments that I am a sadhak for doing saadhan (spiritual practices), not
for considering others as asadhak (non-aspirants).

The acceptance at ego level always remains. Therefore, I am sadhak, on having
this ego, spiritual practices (sadhan) will inevitably happen by sadhak. When
doing sadhan and while doing worldly work - at both times he will be a sadhak
and there would be no action which is against his spiritual discipline
(saadhan). On incessant and constant sadhan, his ego will be easily destroyed.
Sadhak (aspirant) is indivisible with sadhan (spiritual practice) and sadhan is
indivisible with sadhya (God). Therefore after ego is destroyed there is no
sadhak. There is only saadhan (spiritual discipline, practice). When there is
only sadhan, then saadhan merges in saadhya (God). Thereafter, besides God,
nothing remains.
From "Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu" in Hindi pg 436 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------------

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and commit to daily Gita study
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4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim
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2. Only responses that are not in conflict with Gita, Scriptures, Dharma etc.
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(Ph #, address etc) or personalize message to particular person
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Limit the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

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Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: What is the Feeling of Mind at time of Dying ?

 

JAI SHREE KRISHNA

CAN ANY BODY TELL ME THE FEELING OF MIND AT THE TIME DYING. WHAT IS POSITION OF
SUKSAM SHARIR ?

suresh goel

-----------------------------------------

Hari Om

Feeling of mind, at the time of death, is individual and definitely varies from person to person. How then this Q be replied? However one thing is certain. You are likely to have that feeling in mind, which has been practiced for long. Gita also guarantees a last minute divine thought to some people say those referred in 7:30 etc , but for others it is always better to keep saying: Hey Naath...Let me never forget You. Hey Deendayal, Hey Deenanath, Hey Kripaalu, Hey Girdhar Gopal, Hey Trilokinath..Main aapko bhoolu nahin !!

Lag Jaao, Divine Sadhaks...

Swaans Ko Moodh Vishwas Kahaan, Pal Aawat Hee Rah Jaawat Hai !

O Stupid (Jeeva) how can you trust breathing? It (death) is merely a phenomena where breath simply does not repeat itself !!

Surprise is not your living, surprise is that inspite of having 9 big holes and millions of small holes in body , you are still able to breath with the weak help of one of the subtlest element..thin air !!

Hence ' Lag Jaao' ...say O My Lord..Let me never forget you !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
-------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
At the time of natural death of any living (One without diseases) human, the senses are cut off one by one. The devatas concerning nose, ears, hands, mouth etc will leave one by one. Before that the oxygen level will go down very fast, thereby cutting of brain actions. Then one will not suffer while these devatas leave the body. We has Prana, Appana, samana etc 6 gases, each does their part. If Samana malfunctions, you get diseases. There is one among 6 is Udana, if it should function well, you can get Smarana (Thought) about God Nam, which takes the Jeeva to God.How this Jeeva travels where Etc is differant subject.
B.Sathyanarayan

---------------------------------------------

Fellow learners,

Nobody but the dead can answer this question in exactness. I am not yet dead, so my answer is purely theoretical.

I have seen a few people dying. My mother died at a very early age. She was widowed at the age of 19 and we were thrown out of our House by my father's father and brother. We worked hard and I, thank God, became a substantial person at an early age. Probably due to the strain of hardships for so many years, my mother died after a very brief (<20 hours) indisposition. Luckily I was with her. The last sound made by her was "Krishna, Krishna" which could be her favorite Lord Krishna or even the miserable me, her son.

It is quite plausible at that moment she felt she was being dragged away from her son, her only possession and called Lord Krishna to prevent it; Or she did not want to be away from her only possession, that is me, and called me to be with her. I do not know but fervently wish it were the former.

Then, there was a distant relative of mine who was rich and never faced any difficulty in his life except that he lost his wife at a very young age after giving birth to a girl. Our relation is thru that girl who was my playmate and behaved like a protective elder sister. I do not know why, but while I was in Amsterdam in Dec. 1992, I received a call from Nellore informing me that this elderly relative was seriously ill and wanted to see me before dying. Providentially, my work in A'Dam was almost over and I could advance my departure by a week. Due to Xmas rush I had difficulty in flight reservation and could reach Nellore only in time to hear the last words of this relative. When he saw me there was recognition in his face, I could see a semblance of satisfied smile. People around asked me to say something to him as he was looking for me for the last one week or more. Involuntarily

NAITE SRITEE PAARDHA JAANAN YOGEE MUHYATI KAH CINAH
TASMAAT SARVESHU KAALESHU YOGA YUKTO BHAVA ARJUNA

Honestly, I do not know why I said it, It is 8.27 of Gita and was a Sloka that was not recollected by me often. I was later told that till that moment, he was talking about the details of lands he has and the FD's cash balances in various banks etc to his only son. After my talking to him, he did not talk about money and lands. He looked calm and composed. I do not know what his last thoughts were; he died in a few minutes silently.

Many times I wonder, whether the last thoughts are in our control. Can we detach ouselves from the physical bonds atleast as we breath the last. I am afraid one has to train him/her self for death to be thoughtless at that moment which is the same as being filled with the Lord and only Lord.

ESHAA BRAAHMEE STHITIH PAARDHAH NAINAAM PRAAPYA VIMUHYATI
STHITVAA ASYAAM AMTAKAALe API BRAHMA NIRVAANAM RICHCHASI 2.72 BG

God Bless you all
krishna

----------------------------------------------------------

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Saturday, July 30, 2011

[gita-talk] Any role of Prarabdh in Suicide? and it's effect on Outcomes ?

 

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please be brief and respectful of all. ALSO, ONLY RESPONSES THAT ARE
NOT IN CONFLICT WITH SCRIPTURES WILL BE POSTED, TO AVOID MISLEADING ANY SADHAKS. GITA TALK MODERATORS, RAM RAM

=============================================

Any role of Prarabdh (consequences of actions of previous births) in suicide??
If so, how does that affect the outcome of such an act?

With best wishes,
from

Rahul

----------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Why Should Suicide be Called Aatma Hatya?

 

SHREE HARI RAM RAM

Thank you all for the touching responses! This concludes this topic.
GITA TALK MODERATORS, RAM RAM
-----------------------------------------------------

As for aathma [SOUL ] doesn't have birth and death. then why should suicide
called aathma hatya???

"Basavaraj G"
---------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Basavaraji,

Yes we all know that Atma cannot be killed (Gita: 2/23-24) then why killing one's own body is called 'Atma Hatya'-- is a good question! It is not known since when but it is customary to call taking one's own life as the act of 'Atma Hitya'.

The reason for calling suicide as 'Atma-hatya' could be that since by killing this body one has definitely eliminated the potential opportunity of realizing the SELF (Self Realization of Atman) in this present life. Out of His grace only that God has given this precious body with the single objective of attaining one's true Self or realize God, by suicide the golden chance of experiencing the Atman in this life thus is gone.

To assume identity with the body is to commit suicide; to degrade himself and put himself into the cycle of birth and death (Gita: 13/28)

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

---------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Suicide, call it what you wish, is, the murder of oneself, a terrible thing, the waves of pain and suffering that is the legacy of the act is almost beyond measure.
How can one escape from a situation that is self created, by killing oneself, one compounds the situation for future births, that is plain to comprehend.
I have in my life prevented two suicides, both these souls came to me for help, at first I was annoyed, "Who am I that they came to me?", but I had wise council, and all I had to do was show them love. Another we (my wife and I) failed, she was introduced to us, but no one told us of her dilemma, we were in a hurry, I did not see the pain in her eyes, I should have, a beautiful young life taken by her own hand, it still pricks me.
We all can comprehend at a deep level the tragic sin that suicide is, the samskaras of the next life will be pregnant with that act of self murder, and the unresolved issues, of that truncated life.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.

------------------------------------
Atma has several meanings depending on the context. Atma is as you say Soul; but
it also means Mana (mind). It is also used to point out self like "myself" or
just self. Atma hatya is not killing of Atma but killing one self. Better svayam
hatya. Nobody says Atma can be killed. You are confused about Vibhakti in
splitting (vigraha) of the samaasa Atmahatya.

Samudrala Krishna

--------------------------------------------

Hari Om

This Q is not at all worth deliberating. It does not make any difference whether
the act of destroying the human life is called as suicide or atma hatya or
sharir hatya or body murder or by any other name. What is 'suicide' in essence
and effect is important not as to how it is referred in vocabulary.

Still let me tell that the correct answer is: Yes...the suicide should be called
'atma-hatya'. If the answer is : No , because the soul is immortal, imperishable
etc .. then inspite of that being a fact , still that answer is incorrect
because the person who commits suicide has not believed the truth as such.
He/she still has disrespected/ mis-utilised the gift so benevolently given to
him/her for his/her benefit by Paramatma and effectively has caused the murder
of that benevolence/affection of God. That is murder in its own way.. and
rightly so. Moreover, the right of the soul to get a future body even, what to
talk of getting human body again , stands forfeited/withdrawn ( Scriptures say
that such soul loiters body-lessly for ages and eons in the form of spirits and
ghosts etc)) ..and that forfeiture of right is nothing less than murder..in
essence and in effect.

So there is nothing wrong,.. nothing at all wrong, .. in stating or calling
suicide as 'self murder' . 'Atma-hatya' in essence means not the murder of
'soul' (atmaa) but the murder of 'self' (atma) ! Atma-hatya means lowering the
self. Let sadhaks not go un-necessarily into intellectual discussions but
concentrate on 'essence' ...'result'...'effect'. There is nothing wrong in
saying it as 'atma-hatya' and even Lord Krishna uses similar expression in Gita
when He says in BG 13: 28 -na hinsyatmanatmaanam. Here causing violence to soul
(self) is done by believing the birth,death of the body as the birth, death of
self and that is effectively and essentially murdering one's own self by one's
own self only.

Lastly, invariably, a suicider ends the life under sway of the Gunas of Prakruti
(anger/frustration/ ignorance/stupidity/ helplessness before circumstances/
cowardice etc) and thus soul remains associated with Prakruti. Invariably,
he/she regrets doing suicide before the death actually comes. Actually, he/she
dies because the steps already taken become irreversible. He/she thus dies not
wilfully but in effect with a 'desire to live' !

All said and done, such Qs do not actually lead you to anywhere. Because they
un-necessarily bring the basic characteristics of immortality etc of soul into
focus, which focus ultimately gives erroneous results and in the end must take
the direction of ONLY justifying an otherwise very ghor karma (heinous, very
violent ) of suicide by a Jeeva. It is done by using 'words of vocabulary' as
outer guise.

Words are not at all important here. It does not make any difference actually as
to how this act is called or referred in words. It is a plain murder of
soul/self believing the affinity of self/soul with body. The body gets murdered,
actually, but in essence it is self getting violent against itself.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------

Atmya and Atman are not the same words. Atman means Soul, although sometimes it
may mean the self in myself, themself or your self. But Atmya means the
self in your self, myself ot themselves. One can kill one self, I can kill
myself, you can kill yourself, they can kill themselves - through suicide or
aacts of follishness or taking high risk. That may be called Atmyahatya. But no
one kill or cause death to Atman as Atman is in ceaseless existence - never born
and never dead.
Words can cause problems and can be used to confuse oneself and others. But
everyone knows that the Truth, Atmya Hatya is not the killing of the atman.
Atman is not identifiable with any particular individual or human being - this
is the eternal soul not divisible into x's soul and Y's soul. As soon as you
make soul of self divisible into different persons, you are not talking of the
Atman or Soul that is eternal and never born nor dies.
This is so simple to people who are logical that words cannot create confusion.
Basudeb Sen

---------------------------------------------------

So students should study the sacred books and keep company with great souls. The
company they keep can root out such sins (evils)
these words of Swami ji are GREAT & to be FOLLOWED
so
say
HariBol HariBol HariHariBo

Badri Taneja

----------------------------------------------

Atma originally means "self", as in "he washes himself". Hence Atmakatha,
"self-story" = "autobiography". Hence the original meaning of Adhy-atm-ika,
"caused by oneself", as in self-inflicted diseases (e.g. lung cancer for a
smoker). And hence Atmahatya, "self-killing", suicide. It meant "personality" or
"own body", the meaning of "ultimate conscious core" is derived from a metaphor:
just as your clothes and possessions can be "peeled off" until you only have
yourself (i.e. your body) left, so likewise, you can peel off your emotions,
memories etc. as non-essentials, as objects of your consciousnes which it can
take up and also discard, leaving only the subject of consciousness as the "real
self".

Best regards,

KE (Koenraad Elst)

Question: A few students commit suicide, while failing in an examination. Why?
How to solve this problem?

Swamiji: They commit suicide because their failure is an obstacle to their
honor and praise that they desire. There is no joy in commiting suicide. Those
who try to commit suicide but somehow escape it explain that suicide involves
great suffering. He who commits suicide commits the deadly sin of murdering a
human being and in future he has to suffer the worst tortures. So students
should study the sacred books and keep company with great souls. The company
they keep can root out such sins (evils)

From: "Be Good" pg 141 in English by Swami Ramsukhdasji

Question: Whatever the man remembers at the time of death (at time of leaving
his body), that he will attain, does this ruling apply to even those that commit
suicide ?
Swamiji: Yes! it applies to those who are committing suicide as well. But for
those individuals it is very difficult for them to be in remembrance of God
(auspiciousness). This is because they are committing suicide out of deep pain
and sorrow, but their desire remains to be happy. Secondly, when the life force
is leaving them, they are repenting of their act, but they are unable to do
anything about it. Thirdly, while life force is leaving, they undergo terrible
and immense difficulties. If their inner feelings are pure, if they have faith
in God, if they desire to remember God, then they will not do this terrible
crime of committing suicide. Lastly, it is because the inner intellect is
impure, that one thinks of committing suicide. Therefore those that commit
suicide have a major downfall. Skanda Purana says that such persons do not
attain salvation for several lives to come. Therefore, intelligent people must
never ever think of suicide even out of forgetfulness or mistake.

From : Q&A with Swamiji http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/QA/QA.htm

----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------
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Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Sadhak - Sadhan - Sadhya (God) are indivisible - Where in Sadhak Sanjivani?

 

Ram Ram

Swamiji has stated below - Sadhak (aspirant) is indivisible with sadhan (spiritual practice) and sadhan is indivisible with sadhya (God). Therefore after ego is destroyed there is no sadhak. There is only saadhan (spiritual discipline, practice). When there is only sadhan, then sadhan merges in sadhya (God). Thereafter, besides God, nothing remains.

This is from Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu.

I don't remember coming across same kind of content in Sadhak-Sanjeevani. Can anyone please tell where it appears in Sadhak-Sanjivani? I believe Swamiji would have definitely mentioned in some verse.

Thanks,
Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------------------------------
: Shree Hari:
Ram Ram

14th June, 2009, Sunday; Aashaad Krishna Saptami, Vikram Samvat 2066, Ravivaar

Question – From the beginning the habit of enjoying pleasures has been formed, how to get rid of that ?

Answer – It is essential that for getting rid of the habit of enjoying pleasures, two things need to change – aim and ego. This human body is not for enjoying pleasures in the least bit – "Ehin Tan Kar Phal Vishay Na Bhai" (Manas 7/44/1). Hence my aim is not enjoyment of pleasures and hoarding , but it is to only realize Parmatma – this is what is meant by changing of aim. I am not a bhogi (pleasure-seeker), rather I am a sadhak – this is the change of ego.

A man doesn't change his aim, nor does he change his ego, it is due to this that his habit doesn't improve. Without improving his habit, even if he gives lectures, even if he studies the scriptures, even if he write books, even if he becomes a Mahatma "great soul" in the eyes of people, then too he will still not attain salvation.

Once some men of Mathura, came to Vishraamghat at night after dinner and after having some bhaang (kind of intoxicant) and sat in a boat. They thought that Yamuna (river) flows towards Prayaagraaj and we also have to go to Prayaagraaj; so just by sitting in boat we will reach Prayaagraaj. Thinking this they said 'Hail Mother Yamuna' and started rowing the boat. Night long they were rowing the boat. In the morning they found themselves in a city. They asked one gentlemen that which city is this? He said - It is Mathura. Then they asked that which is this shore (ghaat)? He said Vishraamghat. They said- Ohh! We left from Vishraamshat and we again reached Vishraamghat. How come? When they examined,they found that they had not untied the rope and night long they were vigorously rowing the boat. Not making a firm resolve and not changing the ego - is like not untieing the rope.

Question - 'I am sadhak' - changing ego in this manner will make sadhak egoistic (filled with pride), which will lead to his downfall?

Answer - By changing ego, sadhak will have the sentiment that I am a sadhak, therefore I cannot do anything contrary to my spiritual practice. If I am a sadhak then how can I do asaadhan (something that is against spiritual disciplines)? I am truthful, then how can I lie? I am honest then how can I be dishonest? Actions will be aligned with the ego. Sadhak will become egoistic only when he compares himself with others. Looking at others makes him feel superior, which is the cause of egoism. Looking at others' duty is not our duty, rather it is non-duty. Therefore sadhak has to carry his own duties. Whether others follow their duty or not, is not a sadhak's concern. Then egoism will not come in a sadhak. Devotee considers everyone as God. Main Sevak Sacharaachar Roop Swami Bhagwant (Manas, Kishkindha / 3) "I am a servant and God is my Master in the form of sentient-insentient." Therefore egoism doesn't enter him. It means that it is only due to considering others as asadhak (non-aspirant) that it makes a sadhak egoistic. Considering others as asadhak is asaadhan (against spiritual practice) which is the cause of downfall. Therefore sadhak should have the sentiments that I am a sadhak for doing saadhan (spiritual practices), not for considering others as asadhak (non-aspirants).

The acceptance at ego level always remains. Therefore, I am sadhak, on having this ego, spiritual practices (sadhan) will inevitably happen by sadhak. When doing sadhan and while doing worldly work - at both times he will be a sadhak and there would be no action which is against his spiritual discipline (saadhan). On incessant and constant sadhan, his ego will be easily destroyed. Sadhak (aspirant) is indivisible with sadhan (spiritual practice) and sadhan is indivisible with sadhya (God). Therefore after ego is destroyed there is no sadhak. There is only saadhan (spiritual discipline, practice). When there is only sadhan, then saadhan merges in saadhya (God). Thereafter, besides God, nothing remains.
From "Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu" in Hindi pg 436 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] What is the Feeling of Mind at time of Dying ?

 

JAI SHREE KRISHNA

CAN ANY BODY TELL ME THE FEELING OF MIND AT THE TIME DYING. WHAT IS POSITION OF SUKSAM SHARIR ?

suresh goel

-----------------------------------------

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Ram Ram

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