Question is: Paramatma is said to be without a beginning (free of birth) and
without an end. What is the appropriateness of celebrating the birth of Lord
Krishna (Janmashtami)? If it is appropriate then Shri Krishna was born and He
who is born is bound to die with certainty (Gita 2:27) then why has Shri
Krishna been called Bhagwaan in Sadhak Sanjivani by Swamiji? Why has Arjuna
also not been called Bhagavan? when it has been said that the essence of Gita
is "Vasudeva Sarvam" (Gita 7/19)
Kindly please explain
prashna hai : paramaatmaako anaadi (aadi-rahit yaa ajanmaa) tathaa anant
(ant-rahit) kahaa gayaa hai. shree krishna-janmaashtamee manaanekaa kyaa
auchitya hai? Yadi auchitya hai to shree krishna janm huaa aur jo janmataa hai
usakee mrityu nishchit hai [geetaa 2 : 27] fir shree krishnako swameejeene
saadhaka-sanjeevaneemen 'bhagavaan' kyon kahaa hai? arjunako bhee bhagavaan kyon
naheen kahaa? jabaki kahaa hai ki geetaakaa saar hai, 'vaasudev: sarvam'.
[geetaa 7 : 19].
Sadhakaas have said :
Samudrala Krishna :
True Paramaatma is without a beginning and an End. Kindly differentiate between 'True Paramaatmaa' and 'Untrue or False Paramaatmaa', if there are more than one Paramaatmaas.
Remember Paramaatma has Bhaga here indescribable (Paramaatmaa) is described as having limited (six) attributes to differentiate Paramaatmaa from Bhagavaan. Kindly specify the origin of existence of Bhagavaan (when there existed nothing, exists nothing and shall never exist nothing EXCEPT Paramaatmaa; so he is Bhagavaan.
Veda Vyaasa was Bhagavaan. Swameejee has addressed Vedvyaas as Maharshi, NOT Bhagavaan [Saadhaka-Sanjeevanee page 1 line 8].
But Bhagavaan does not mean Parmaatma. Kindly elaborate the basis of this statement, 'Bhagavaan doesn't mean Paramaatmaa.' if Geetaa 7 : 19 is NOT false.
Pratap Bhatt :
So, in Gita Vyasji says "Shree Bhagvanu vachah"(Shree Bhagva is speaking), it means Brahman, Wisdom, speaking through Krishna's body-mind. This is written 'nowhere' in Sadhaka-Sanjeevanee and in next edition of this Great Teekaa, this statement must be included everywhere, wherever Shree Krishna said anything, ONLY IF this statement has some basis helpful in Understanding Geetaa.
The reference is to Bhagwan All Mighty who exists in everything and contains everything. When this Bhagwan All Mighty [a new word here when we are talking about Paramaatmaa and Bhagavaan] exists in everything and contains everything, HOW IS IT that so called unrealised soul is separate (not inseparable) from this Bhagwan All Mighty?
The individual realised soul that experiences this is conceptually in a state indistinguishable and inseparable from Bhagwan. Lord Krishna had been in that State even if was physically seen as a mortal human body. So, he is the Bhagwan. Arjun and others were not in that state of complete and comprhensive realisation and therefore were not referred to as Bhagwan All Mighty.
Accordingly, all non-realised, non-liberated souls driving human innumerable human bodies have the fundamental duty and right to observe the birthdays of whomever they like, love and follow. Kindly specify the TOTAL number of 'realised' and 'unrealised' souls at that time (when Geetaa came into existence) quoting the source also (name, page etc) as in Geetaa 2 : 24 it has been said 'sarvagat'. How can several souls be 'sarvagat'? Also Geetaa 7 : 19 is there.
Hari Shanker Deo
His life and times show that he was a Parmatma
This 'a Paramaatma' is beyond comprehension. Is there anything else which is NOT Paramaatmaa? Where did it come from? When did it come into existence? Please elaborate.
HUMBLE SUBMISSION :
All statements discriminating anything from Paramaatmaa need basis and explanation to disprove Geetaa 7 : 19.
Similar doubt (APARAM BHAVATO JANM ...GitaJi 4/4) was raised by Arjun when Lord said that he imparted the same knowledge to the Sun before. If anyone has read Bhagavad Gita honestly, this kind of doubt should not have come at all. Throughout Bhagavad Gita, it is clearly stated that Sri KrishNa (the teacher of Arjun) is referred as PARAM/Supreme BRAHM/God/Bliss (10/12), PARAM DHAAM/abode (10/12), PARAM PAVITRA/purifier (10/12), SHAASWAT/Eternal PURUSHHA/Person (10/12), AADI/Primeval DEVA/God (10/12), AJA/Unborn (10/12), VIBHU/Omnipresent (10/12), PRUSHHOTTAM/Supreme Person (10/15,8/1), BHOOTBHAAVAN/source of all the beings (10/15), BHOOTESH/Lord of the beings (10/15), DEVDEVA/God of Gods(10/15), JAGATPATI/Lord of the world (10/15), YOGESWAR/Lord of all the Yogas (18/78, 11/9), PARAM AKSHAR (11/18), SHAASWAT DHARMGOPTAA (11/18), SANAATAN/Eternal PURUSHHA/Person (11/18), PITA/father of the world (9/17,11/43), MATA/mother of the world(9/17), DHAATAA of the world (9/17), GATI/ultimate goal (9/18), PRABHU/Master(9/18), GURU/teacher of the world (11/43) PRANAV/OMKAAR (10/17, 7/8, 10/25), ANANT (11/37), ISWAR (4/6,9/11), AATMAA/PARMAATMAA (10/20,9/5), VISHNU (10/21), SHANKAR (10/23), RAAM(10/31), VAASUDEVA(10/37), KRISHNA (6/39,18/78), MAHAKAAL (11/32, 10/33), ..............!
Nothing is beyond him (MATTAAH PARATARAM NAANYAT..7/7, ABHYADHIKA KUTONYAH -11/43)) and nothing is like him (NA TVAT SAMA... 11/43). Not only that
he is the PRATISHTHAA/abode of the BRHAM, AVYAAYA AMRRIT, SHAASWAT DHARM, SUKHA, PARAM NIRVAAN SHANTI (14/27, 6/15).
If this doubt does not go away, 9/11 (AVAJAANANTI MAAM MOODHA..), 10/14 (NA HI BHAGAVAN VYAKTIM VIDU ..), 7/24 (AVYAKTAM VYAKTI MAAPANNAM), 11/50 (BHOOTVAA PUNAR SAUMYA VAPUR ..), 11/51 (DRISTVEDAM MAANUSHHAM ROOPAM..) can help you.
ShankarachaaryaJi , just after Arjun's question in 4/4, says that Lord's answer in 4/5 is for all those MOORKHAANAAM/fools who think he was not the Supreme.
YAA VAASUDEVE ANEESHWARAASARVAGYAASHANKAA MOORKHAANAAM, TAAM PARIHARAN SHRI BHAGAVAANUVAACH
Regarding VAASUDEVA SARVAM ITI, it is the ultimate claim of the MAHAATAMAA /great realized souls (GYAANI-BHAKT) in rarity (SU-DURLABHA). But, from the perspective of God, it is only GOD/VAASUDEVA (MATAAH PARATARAM NAANYAT 7/7; MAYI SARVAM IDAM -7/7; MATAAM SARVAM PRAVARTATE -10/8) which includes Arjun too (PAANDAVAANAAM DHANANJAYA..10/37). Arjun can only realize this (NASTO MOHA; SMRITI LABDHA, STHITOSMI -18/73) and serve the Supreme (KARISHYE VANCHAM TAVA -18/73) being his instrument (NIMITTA MAATRAM-11/33) who is none other than the Supreme's own higher nature (PARA PRAKRRITI -9/5).
May all be blessed!
the birth of any godly/divines is not like human birth. sadahaka has forgoten that same Sri Krishna tells Arjuna that HE comes to this earth by HIS will and whereas Arjuna comes by karma. Bagavan is said, " Akarmanaya- Akilakaranaya- Niskaranaya". Humans are only Karmanaya. The divine soul enters the body only at ITS will and knowledge well knowing all the past present and future and to stabilize Dharma few days before delivery. Whereas a ordinary Jeeva enters mothers womb somewhere near 5 th month. Ex: Among 63 savite saints Nayamars- Thirugyana Sambanthar at age of 5 could see GOD. Among 12 Vainavite saints Namalwar had divines Knowledge of God (Paramathuma) at age of 2. Jada Bharath and Prahalad in Bagavath got gyan in Mother womb itself. Sri Vishnu tells Mother Durga to transfer Jeeva from Devaki Womb and place in Rohini Womb, and Sri Vishnu says HE is take Devaki womb as next. It will be very surprising that Bagavan HIMSELF follows karmic laws here. Another thing in Christianity- Jesus birth is predicted and jesus was born to Virgin Mary. Same things in Maha Bharat- Widows were blessed with children without bidily contact by Rishi. Our scientific knowledge is nothing when compared to scientific knowledge of GOD. When to be born and when to go back to Vaikunt perfectly decided by Sri Vishnu. So HE is free from birth or death. Question was,"" What is the appropriateness of celebrating the birth of Lord Krishna (Janmashtami)?"". Why do we celebrate our birthday or our children? To remember- What is different.
We celebrate Gandhi birthday to remember that he got us freedom. Same Janmastami to remember Sri Krishna teachings. Arjuna is son of Demi God. Those are like us but better in quality of living. So they are NOT Bagavan, Bagavan means ONE who creates, and protects. Aruna can do nothing.
Dear Geeta Sadhakaas, Namaskar,
Everybody should, please, bear in mind that the Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) wanted to lay down certain benevolent procedures for the benefit of the Society, so that mankind be long lived, healthy, cultured, educated, well behaved. Why they wanted the mankind to be so? Because whosoever life form is born on this Planet Earth should lead a peaceful life till its death.
Now, if I desire to tell people something for their benefit, I should tell them my thoughts in a language which they will understand or I should be able to create a confidence in them, so that they will believe in whatever I say. That is how the religious scriptures came into existence. Everybody believed in the scriptures without questioning or without having any doubt.
Later on, the scriptures were modified by the followers and religious leaders to increase their following. That is how so many mythological stories sprung up.
We should appreciate that these efforts were very successful and guided the Human Cultures to religious paths for thousands of Earth years. Millions of devotees had mental satisfaction to live happily and die peacefully.
Geeta also is no exception. So if you study the scriptures with this perspective, many of your doubts will be cleared.
This is simply belief and nothing else. The majority population of the World does not recognize this .
Belief is generated by various parameters over a period of time.
Dr. Rajeev Agnihotri
I am happy with your question. True Paramaatma is without a beginning and an
End. Sree Krishna, born as the son of Devaki, brought up by the ever scared
Yasoda is not Paramaatma who has transfered him(IT) self from somewhere to
Vraja. For a certain material purpose an entity with some qualities, as are
necessary to achieve that purpose someone is born. "Sambhavaami Atma Maayayaa"
does not mean I am born; but suggest that "by my intention such an entity is
born or comes into existence." As soon as Krishna or Rama came into this world,
they became worldly beings like any body except for some special features.
Hence, as you rightly said, Krishna had an end, he died through an arrow. Rama
Died. It is not the Paramaatma that "died". It is the being that was born at the
behest of Paramatma to achieve a purpose that died. As I said, Krishna was a
being with birth and death like you and me; but Krishna and such others had or
have developed certain special qualities and hence they are not like me, say.
The set of six qualities: Sourya, Teja, Veerya, Bala, Ksahma, Dnyana and Sama is
called Bhaga. These are the special qualities that distinguish people like
Krishna, Vyaasa, Agastya and many like them from us ordinary beings. people
having Bhaga as their nature are Bhagavaan. Bhagavaan does not mean "GOD" or
Paramaatma. Have you read Raamaayana by Vaalmeeki (Sanskrit). In Yuddha kaamda
sage Agastya approache a worried Rama and teache shim "Aditya Hridaya". Look at
it, it says "Agstyo Bhagavaan Rishih". Agastya had Bhaga and hence he was
qualified to the honor Bhgavaan. People like Arjuna did not have many of these
six qualities. Arjuna shivered at the sight of Bheeshma and others. How can he
be Bhagavaan? Veda Vyaasa was Bhagavaan.
Unfortunately, due to false teachings by self styled Gurus and Babas and Svamis,
Bhagavaan has becomee the exclusive of or synonymous to God, who is then dubbed
as Paramaatma. Remember Paramaatma has Bhaga; so he is Bhagavaan. But Bhagavaan
does not mean Parmaatma. I repeat
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Very natural and important question put by Sadhakji for all of us!
First of all, Arjuna is not called Bhagvan for the same reason we are not called
Bhagvan even as "All there is, IS God, Vasudevah Sarvameti" is the Truth. It is
The only Truth, all else is nama-rupa(Mithya) superimposed on IT! However, This
statement is inspired by the Vision based on Realization of Truth of oneself,
as Self, The Being of all beings, and is true for him/her only!
From the questions of Arjuna to this far in Gita(7:19), it appears that he has
yet to realize it as we all do!This experience is unlike all other experiences
by mind. It comes from the Grace of God to those sincere seekers of Truth as
experiential understanding(Anubhutirupa) leading to this Vision, a spontaneous
outpouring of hearts of a Gyani Bhakta! Mind just expresses it to communicate!
Krishna is both, historical one who is born to Devaki and Vasudev, brought up by
Yashoda and Nanda in Gokula having playful childhood, etc., and, also the One
who Realized Being Brahman, The Existence Absolute, of Sat-Chit-Ananda nature!
Sakshat Brahman playing in the Aangan(front yard) of Nand-Yashoda's cottage!
We call such a one as God Incarnate, all Powerful Intelligence taking up a
mortal body. It is to bring out the humility in us to surrender our
individuality/limitations and Realize the Truth of our ONENESS called God in all
beings, leading us to shores of fulfillment and joy. For this reason we
celebrate the Janmashtami to inspire us to Realize our Sat-Chit-Ananda nature!
It may not be understood as such though!
So, in Gita Vyasji says "Shree Bhagvanu vachah"(Shree Bhagva is speaking), it
means Brahman, Wisdom, speaking through Krishna's body-mind. As mortal body of
Krishna was born, it passed away in the sense it merged back to its source(is
not death really), the 5 Great Elements from which it came into Being upon
birth. Body-mind is the TV channel, as though, through which God manifests
entire Cosmos for Divine Leela, forgetting first and then realizing "Vasudevah
Upanishad says "Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman". Such a Knower is called
Bhagvan or God". This Knower, again, is not body-mind based person, rather,
every action of such a body-mind sees God in every being! He/she considers they
are all Him and deals with them guided by Dharma for the protection of
righteousness and greater good! He/she teaches this knowledge to others for
In our time, Ramana Maharshi is also called Bhagvan Shri Ramana.
I would not hesitate to call our Swamiji as Bhagvan too!
More on "Vasudevah Sarvameti" realization later if interest persists .......
Apparently very interesting and intelligent question. Why should one call a
mortal Krishna Bhagwan and discriminate against all other mortals like Arjuna?
After all, Bhagwan exists in every little or big thing in this Creation and
every little or big thing in the Creation exists in God!
When Krishna is referred to as Bhagwan, it is not the physical body of the human
being named Krishna that is what is referred to. The reference is to Bhagwan All
Mighty who exists in everything and contains everything. The individual realised
soul that experiences this is conceptually in a state indistinguishable and
inseparable from Bhagwan. Lord Krishna had been in that State even if was
physically seen as a mortal human body. So, he is the Bhagwan. Arjun and others
were not in that state of complete and comprhensive realisation and therefore
were not referred to as Bhagwan All Mighty.
It is a matter of human convenience to distinguish the individual soul that is
liberated from the illusion of Maya through complete realisation of the Self:
Krishna was in a state of equanimity, free of sensual desires and beyond
pleasures and pains of material life, without greed, anger or attachment and yet
with flowing love for all others seen as an integral part of his own exiostence
(Biswarup). Bhagwan refers to that state on consciousness. That Consciousness is
what was never born and always existed and the cause of every other thing in
this Creation. This therefore does not have a birthdate: it does not await a
birthday for celebration as it is always in the midst of celebration. But those
who are still under the bondage of illusion (Maya) suffer from their attachment
tp sensual, materialistic ideas of birthday celebrations. That is how Bhawan
made this Creation: all most all elements in this Creation would not be in the
State of Consciousness and liberation from the bondage of illusion. Accordingly,
all non-realised, non-liberated souls driving human innumerable human bodies
have the fundamental duty and right to observe the birthdays of whomever they
like, love and follow.
This is simple. By naming Krishna as Bhagwan one gets to know what combination
of attributes make a human being merge in God and what does not. Vasudeva Sarvam
is known and recommended by many: the one whose life esistence is a running
commentary of experience in constant, continuous practice of Vasudeva Sarvam is
referred to as Bhagwan by the sainsts who composed the Gita in human words.
India is a land of rishis, munis and avtaars. Besides the religion followed by
the majority, it is the home of Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. Various holy men
also preached a variety of faiths and gathered followers. It is said in the
Geeta that from time to time God comes to earth to teach the righteous path. One
such avtaar or a person of divine birth was Krishna. His life and times show
that he was a Parmatma and remains so to millions of his devotees in this world.
Many temples, books, bhajans and temples are dedicated to Him. His immortal
message of the Geeta could only be that of the Divine. No ordinary mortal could
create such a body of work. Arjun was also a great man but had human failings.
Hari Shanker Deo
Paramatma has no begining and no end, that is the reason why Paramatma is called
Paramatma. Paramatma takes the form of Avatara like Bamana, Rama, Srikrishna,
Kalki in order to come to mortal world. Avataras come in our world for specific
task, once the task is completed they leave the mortal world. By celebrating the
birth of Avatara, we just try to respect the Infinite(Paramatma) when he took
the form of Avatara. Arjun was a devotee of Bhagwaan but he is not Bhagwaan.
The very meaning of the word Krishna is attraction.He is the ultimate towards
whom whole phenomenon ploughs and the rest of all are but actors at his
influence and are known as gopis.Meerabai has rightly said that He is the only
male who charms and the rest of all are females worked by His attraction.
Related Link: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net (english)
Related Link: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org (hindi)
Post message: email@example.com
A list of all topics discussed in 2009 along with their links are at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3189