Tuesday, June 28, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: Why Krishna is called Bhagavan not others though Gita says Vasudeva Sarvam

 

Question is: Paramatma is said to be without a beginning (free of birth) and
without an end. What is the appropriateness of celebrating the birth of Lord
Krishna (Janmashtami)? If it is appropriate then Shri Krishna was born and He
who is born is bound to die with certainty (Gita 2:27) then why has Shri
Krishna been called Bhagwaan in Sadhak Sanjivani by Swamiji? Why has Arjuna
also not been called Bhagavan? when it has been said that the essence of Gita
is "Vasudeva Sarvam" (Gita 7/19)

Kindly please explain

HINDI

prashna hai : paramaatmaako anaadi (aadi-rahit yaa ajanmaa) tathaa anant
(ant-rahit) kahaa gayaa hai. shree krishna-janmaashtamee manaanekaa kyaa
auchitya hai? Yadi auchitya hai to shree krishna janm huaa aur jo janmataa hai
usakee mrityu nishchit hai [geetaa 2 : 27] fir shree krishnako swameejeene
saadhaka-sanjeevaneemen 'bhagavaan' kyon kahaa hai? arjunako bhee bhagavaan kyon
naheen kahaa? jabaki kahaa hai ki geetaakaa saar hai, 'vaasudev: sarvam'.
[geetaa 7 : 19].
kripayaa samajhaayen.
savinay,
saadhaka.

-----------------------------------------

Sadhakaas have said :

Samudrala Krishna :
True Paramaatma is without a beginning and an End. Kindly differentiate between 'True Paramaatmaa' and 'Untrue or False Paramaatmaa', if there are more than one Paramaatmaas.
Remember Paramaatma has Bhaga here indescribable (Paramaatmaa) is described as having limited (six) attributes to differentiate Paramaatmaa from Bhagavaan. Kindly specify the origin of existence of Bhagavaan (when there existed nothing, exists nothing and shall never exist nothing EXCEPT Paramaatmaa; so he is Bhagavaan.
Veda Vyaasa was Bhagavaan. Swameejee has addressed Vedvyaas as Maharshi, NOT Bhagavaan [Saadhaka-Sanjeevanee page 1 line 8].
But Bhagavaan does not mean Parmaatma. Kindly elaborate the basis of this statement, 'Bhagavaan doesn't mean Paramaatmaa.' if Geetaa 7 : 19 is NOT false.

Pratap Bhatt :
So, in Gita Vyasji says "Shree Bhagvanu vachah"(Shree Bhagva is speaking), it means Brahman, Wisdom, speaking through Krishna's body-mind. This is written 'nowhere' in Sadhaka-Sanjeevanee and in next edition of this Great Teekaa, this statement must be included everywhere, wherever Shree Krishna said anything, ONLY IF this statement has some basis helpful in Understanding Geetaa.

Basudeb Sen
The reference is to Bhagwan All Mighty who exists in everything and contains everything. When this Bhagwan All Mighty [a new word here when we are talking about Paramaatmaa and Bhagavaan] exists in everything and contains everything, HOW IS IT that so called unrealised soul is separate (not inseparable) from this Bhagwan All Mighty?
The individual realised soul that experiences this is conceptually in a state indistinguishable and inseparable from Bhagwan. Lord Krishna had been in that State even if was physically seen as a mortal human body. So, he is the Bhagwan. Arjun and others were not in that state of complete and comprhensive realisation and therefore were not referred to as Bhagwan All Mighty.
Accordingly, all non-realised, non-liberated souls driving human innumerable human bodies have the fundamental duty and right to observe the birthdays of whomever they like, love and follow. Kindly specify the TOTAL number of 'realised' and 'unrealised' souls at that time (when Geetaa came into existence) quoting the source also (name, page etc) as in Geetaa 2 : 24 it has been said 'sarvagat'. How can several souls be 'sarvagat'? Also Geetaa 7 : 19 is there.
Hari Shanker Deo
His life and times show that he was a Parmatma
This 'a Paramaatma' is beyond comprehension. Is there anything else which is NOT Paramaatmaa? Where did it come from? When did it come into existence? Please elaborate.

HUMBLE SUBMISSION :
All statements discriminating anything from Paramaatmaa need basis and explanation to disprove Geetaa 7 : 19.
Savinay,
Saadhaka.

------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

Similar doubt (APARAM BHAVATO JANM ...GitaJi 4/4) was raised by Arjun when Lord said that he imparted the same knowledge to the Sun before. If anyone has read Bhagavad Gita honestly, this kind of doubt should not have come at all. Throughout Bhagavad Gita, it is clearly stated that Sri KrishNa (the teacher of Arjun) is referred as PARAM/Supreme BRAHM/God/Bliss (10/12), PARAM DHAAM/abode (10/12), PARAM PAVITRA/purifier (10/12), SHAASWAT/Eternal PURUSHHA/Person (10/12), AADI/Primeval DEVA/God (10/12), AJA/Unborn (10/12), VIBHU/Omnipresent (10/12), PRUSHHOTTAM/Supreme Person (10/15,8/1), BHOOTBHAAVAN/source of all the beings (10/15), BHOOTESH/Lord of the beings (10/15), DEVDEVA/God of Gods(10/15), JAGATPATI/Lord of the world (10/15), YOGESWAR/Lord of all the Yogas (18/78, 11/9), PARAM AKSHAR (11/18), SHAASWAT DHARMGOPTAA (11/18), SANAATAN/Eternal PURUSHHA/Person (11/18), PITA/father of the world (9/17,11/43), MATA/mother of the world(9/17), DHAATAA of the world (9/17), GATI/ultimate goal (9/18), PRABHU/Master(9/18), GURU/teacher of the world (11/43) PRANAV/OMKAAR (10/17, 7/8, 10/25), ANANT (11/37), ISWAR (4/6,9/11), AATMAA/PARMAATMAA (10/20,9/5), VISHNU (10/21), SHANKAR (10/23), RAAM(10/31), VAASUDEVA(10/37), KRISHNA (6/39,18/78), MAHAKAAL (11/32, 10/33), ..............!

Nothing is beyond him (MATTAAH PARATARAM NAANYAT..7/7, ABHYADHIKA KUTONYAH -11/43)) and nothing is like him (NA TVAT SAMA... 11/43). Not only that
he is the PRATISHTHAA/abode of the BRHAM, AVYAAYA AMRRIT, SHAASWAT DHARM, SUKHA, PARAM NIRVAAN SHANTI (14/27, 6/15).

If this doubt does not go away, 9/11 (AVAJAANANTI MAAM MOODHA..), 10/14 (NA HI BHAGAVAN VYAKTIM VIDU ..), 7/24 (AVYAKTAM VYAKTI MAAPANNAM), 11/50 (BHOOTVAA PUNAR SAUMYA VAPUR ..), 11/51 (DRISTVEDAM MAANUSHHAM ROOPAM..) can help you.

ShankarachaaryaJi , just after Arjun's question in 4/4, says that Lord's answer in 4/5 is for all those MOORKHAANAAM/fools who think he was not the Supreme.

YAA VAASUDEVE ANEESHWARAASARVAGYAASHANKAA MOORKHAANAAM, TAAM PARIHARAN SHRI BHAGAVAANUVAACH

Regarding VAASUDEVA SARVAM ITI, it is the ultimate claim of the MAHAATAMAA /great realized souls (GYAANI-BHAKT) in rarity (SU-DURLABHA). But, from the perspective of God, it is only GOD/VAASUDEVA (MATAAH PARATARAM NAANYAT 7/7; MAYI SARVAM IDAM -7/7; MATAAM SARVAM PRAVARTATE -10/8) which includes Arjun too (PAANDAVAANAAM DHANANJAYA..10/37). Arjun can only realize this (NASTO MOHA; SMRITI LABDHA, STHITOSMI -18/73) and serve the Supreme (KARISHYE VANCHAM TAVA -18/73) being his instrument (NIMITTA MAATRAM-11/33) who is none other than the Supreme's own higher nature (PARA PRAKRRITI -9/5).

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey
--------------------------------------------------

dear sadaks,
the birth of any godly/divines is not like human birth. sadahaka has forgoten that same Sri Krishna tells Arjuna that HE comes to this earth by HIS will and whereas Arjuna comes by karma. Bagavan is said, " Akarmanaya- Akilakaranaya- Niskaranaya". Humans are only Karmanaya. The divine soul enters the body only at ITS will and knowledge well knowing all the past present and future and to stabilize Dharma few days before delivery. Whereas a ordinary Jeeva enters mothers womb somewhere near 5 th month. Ex: Among 63 savite saints Nayamars- Thirugyana Sambanthar at age of 5 could see GOD. Among 12 Vainavite saints Namalwar had divines Knowledge of God (Paramathuma) at age of 2. Jada Bharath and Prahalad in Bagavath got gyan in Mother womb itself. Sri Vishnu tells Mother Durga to transfer Jeeva from Devaki Womb and place in Rohini Womb, and Sri Vishnu says HE is take Devaki womb as next. It will be very surprising that Bagavan HIMSELF follows karmic laws here. Another thing in Christianity- Jesus birth is predicted and jesus was born to Virgin Mary. Same things in Maha Bharat- Widows were blessed with children without bidily contact by Rishi. Our scientific knowledge is nothing when compared to scientific knowledge of GOD. When to be born and when to go back to Vaikunt perfectly decided by Sri Vishnu. So HE is free from birth or death. Question was,"" What is the appropriateness of celebrating the birth of Lord Krishna (Janmashtami)?"". Why do we celebrate our birthday or our children? To remember- What is different.
We celebrate Gandhi birthday to remember that he got us freedom. Same Janmastami to remember Sri Krishna teachings. Arjuna is son of Demi God. Those are like us but better in quality of living. So they are NOT Bagavan, Bagavan means ONE who creates, and protects. Aruna can do nothing.
B.Sathyanarayan- Chennai
------------------------------------------------------

Dear Geeta Sadhakaas, Namaskar,

Everybody should, please, bear in mind that the Great Thinkers of the Past (GTPs) wanted to lay down certain benevolent procedures for the benefit of the Society, so that mankind be long lived, healthy, cultured, educated, well behaved. Why they wanted the mankind to be so? Because whosoever life form is born on this Planet Earth should lead a peaceful life till its death.

Now, if I desire to tell people something for their benefit, I should tell them my thoughts in a language which they will understand or I should be able to create a confidence in them, so that they will believe in whatever I say. That is how the religious scriptures came into existence. Everybody believed in the scriptures without questioning or without having any doubt.

Later on, the scriptures were modified by the followers and religious leaders to increase their following. That is how so many mythological stories sprung up.

We should appreciate that these efforts were very successful and guided the Human Cultures to religious paths for thousands of Earth years. Millions of devotees had mental satisfaction to live happily and die peacefully.

Geeta also is no exception. So if you study the scriptures with this perspective, many of your doubts will be cleared.

Gee Waman

-------------------------------------------

This is simply belief and nothing else. The majority population of the World does not recognize this .
Belief is generated by various parameters over a period of time.

Dr. Rajeev Agnihotri

---------------------------------------------

My Friend,

I am happy with your question. True Paramaatma is without a beginning and an
End. Sree Krishna, born as the son of Devaki, brought up by the ever scared
Yasoda is not Paramaatma who has transfered him(IT) self from somewhere to
Vraja. For a certain material purpose an entity with some qualities, as are
necessary to achieve that purpose someone is born. "Sambhavaami Atma Maayayaa"
does not mean I am born; but suggest that "by my intention such an entity is
born or comes into existence." As soon as Krishna or Rama came into this world,
they became worldly beings like any body except for some special features.
Hence, as you rightly said, Krishna had an end, he died through an arrow. Rama
Died. It is not the Paramaatma that "died". It is the being that was born at the
behest of Paramatma to achieve a purpose that died. As I said, Krishna was a
being with birth and death like you and me; but Krishna and such others had or
have developed certain special qualities and hence they are not like me, say.

The set of six qualities: Sourya, Teja, Veerya, Bala, Ksahma, Dnyana and Sama is
called Bhaga. These are the special qualities that distinguish people like
Krishna, Vyaasa, Agastya and many like them from us ordinary beings. people
having Bhaga as their nature are Bhagavaan. Bhagavaan does not mean "GOD" or
Paramaatma. Have you read Raamaayana by Vaalmeeki (Sanskrit). In Yuddha kaamda
sage Agastya approache a worried Rama and teache shim "Aditya Hridaya". Look at
it, it says "Agstyo Bhagavaan Rishih". Agastya had Bhaga and hence he was
qualified to the honor Bhgavaan. People like Arjuna did not have many of these
six qualities. Arjuna shivered at the sight of Bheeshma and others. How can he
be Bhagavaan? Veda Vyaasa was Bhagavaan.

Unfortunately, due to false teachings by self styled Gurus and Babas and Svamis,
Bhagavaan has becomee the exclusive of or synonymous to God, who is then dubbed
as Paramaatma. Remember Paramaatma has Bhaga; so he is Bhagavaan. But Bhagavaan
does not mean Parmaatma. I repeat
Samudrala Krishna

------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Very natural and important question put by Sadhakji for all of us!
First of all, Arjuna is not called Bhagvan for the same reason we are not called
Bhagvan even as "All there is, IS God, Vasudevah Sarvameti" is the Truth. It is
The only Truth, all else is nama-rupa(Mithya) superimposed on IT! However, This
statement is inspired by the Vision based on Realization of Truth of oneself,
as Self, The Being of all beings, and is true for him/her only!
From the questions of Arjuna to this far in Gita(7:19), it appears that he has
yet to realize it as we all do!This experience is unlike all other experiences
by mind. It comes from the Grace of God to those sincere seekers of Truth as
experiential understanding(Anubhutirupa) leading to this Vision, a spontaneous
outpouring of hearts of a Gyani Bhakta! Mind just expresses it to communicate!

Krishna is both, historical one who is born to Devaki and Vasudev, brought up by
Yashoda and Nanda in Gokula having playful childhood, etc., and, also the One
who Realized Being Brahman, The Existence Absolute, of Sat-Chit-Ananda nature!
Sakshat Brahman playing in the Aangan(front yard) of Nand-Yashoda's cottage!
We call such a one as God Incarnate, all Powerful Intelligence taking up a
mortal body. It is to bring out the humility in us to surrender our
individuality/limitations and Realize the Truth of our ONENESS called God in all
beings, leading us to shores of fulfillment and joy. For this reason we
celebrate the Janmashtami to inspire us to Realize our Sat-Chit-Ananda nature!
It may not be understood as such though!

So, in Gita Vyasji says "Shree Bhagvanu vachah"(Shree Bhagva is speaking), it
means Brahman, Wisdom, speaking through Krishna's body-mind. As mortal body of
Krishna was born, it passed away in the sense it merged back to its source(is
not death really), the 5 Great Elements from which it came into Being upon
birth. Body-mind is the TV channel, as though, through which God manifests
entire Cosmos for Divine Leela, forgetting first and then realizing "Vasudevah
Sarvameti"!

Upanishad says "Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman". Such a Knower is called
Bhagvan or God". This Knower, again, is not body-mind based person, rather,
every action of such a body-mind sees God in every being! He/she considers they
are all Him and deals with them guided by Dharma for the protection of
righteousness and greater good! He/she teaches this knowledge to others for
their emancipation!
In our time, Ramana Maharshi is also called Bhagvan Shri Ramana.
I would not hesitate to call our Swamiji as Bhagvan too!
More on "Vasudevah Sarvameti" realization later if interest persists .......
Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------------

Apparently very interesting and intelligent question. Why should one call a
mortal Krishna Bhagwan and discriminate against all other mortals like Arjuna?
After all, Bhagwan exists in every little or big thing in this Creation and
every little or big thing in the Creation exists in God!
When Krishna is referred to as Bhagwan, it is not the physical body of the human
being named Krishna that is what is referred to. The reference is to Bhagwan All
Mighty who exists in everything and contains everything. The individual realised
soul that experiences this is conceptually in a state indistinguishable and
inseparable from Bhagwan. Lord Krishna had been in that State even if was
physically seen as a mortal human body. So, he is the Bhagwan. Arjun and others
were not in that state of complete and comprhensive realisation and therefore
were not referred to as Bhagwan All Mighty.

It is a matter of human convenience to distinguish the individual soul that is
liberated from the illusion of Maya through complete realisation of the Self:
Krishna was in a state of equanimity, free of sensual desires and beyond
pleasures and pains of material life, without greed, anger or attachment and yet
with flowing love for all others seen as an integral part of his own exiostence
(Biswarup). Bhagwan refers to that state on consciousness. That Consciousness is
what was never born and always existed and the cause of every other thing in
this Creation. This therefore does not have a birthdate: it does not await a
birthday for celebration as it is always in the midst of celebration. But those
who are still under the bondage of illusion (Maya) suffer from their attachment
tp sensual, materialistic ideas of birthday celebrations. That is how Bhawan
made this Creation: all most all elements in this Creation would not be in the
State of Consciousness and liberation from the bondage of illusion. Accordingly,
all non-realised, non-liberated souls driving human innumerable human bodies
have the fundamental duty and right to observe the birthdays of whomever they
like, love and follow.

This is simple. By naming Krishna as Bhagwan one gets to know what combination
of attributes make a human being merge in God and what does not. Vasudeva Sarvam
is known and recommended by many: the one whose life esistence is a running
commentary of experience in constant, continuous practice of Vasudeva Sarvam is
referred to as Bhagwan by the sainsts who composed the Gita in human words.
Basudeb Sen

----------------------------

India is a land of rishis, munis and avtaars. Besides the religion followed by
the majority, it is the home of Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. Various holy men
also preached a variety of faiths and gathered followers. It is said in the
Geeta that from time to time God comes to earth to teach the righteous path. One
such avtaar or a person of divine birth was Krishna. His life and times show
that he was a Parmatma and remains so to millions of his devotees in this world.
Many temples, books, bhajans and temples are dedicated to Him. His immortal
message of the Geeta could only be that of the Divine. No ordinary mortal could
create such a body of work. Arjun was also a great man but had human failings.
Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------------------

Paramatma has no begining and no end, that is the reason why Paramatma is called
Paramatma. Paramatma takes the form of Avatara like Bamana, Rama, Srikrishna,
Kalki in order to come to mortal world. Avataras come in our world for specific
task, once the task is completed they leave the mortal world. By celebrating the
birth of Avatara, we just try to respect the Infinite(Paramatma) when he took
the form of Avatara. Arjun was a devotee of Bhagwaan but he is not Bhagwaan.

savinay,
saadhaka.(anjishnu )

--------------------------------

The very meaning of the word Krishna is attraction.He is the ultimate towards
whom whole phenomenon ploughs and the rest of all are but actors at his
influence and are known as gopis.Meerabai has rightly said that He is the only
male who charms and the rest of all are females worked by His attraction.
subhashtewari
----------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Who is a disciple? Who is Entitled? Other Related ...

 

Hari SharaNam,

Instead of answering the questions from the recent posting on "GURU",
entitlement etc., I would like to put the following questions. The moment these
questions are answered honestly, the questions related to the GURU may have
little importance.

1) Who is disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient of the knowledge/essence?
2) Are we entitled/competent to be disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient?
3) Do we become disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient by kripa or destiny?
4) Is question/inquiry/eligibility about the disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient
is of relevance?

Please pay attention to "NA HI PRAPASHYAAMI MAMAAPANUDYAAT ..."-GitaJi: 2/8, to
understand the importance of the above complimentary questions and answer them
for yourself and then reassess your questions.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

-----------------------------------------------
1) Who is disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient of the knowledge/essence?
Anyone who seeks to know and learn something he does not know or realize
from someone else.
2) Are we entitled/competent to be disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient?
Everyone is entitled.
3) Do we become disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient by kripa or destiny?
Yes without the destiny of kripa flowing, we cannot become anythinmg that
we desire or do not desire..
4) Is question/inquiry/eligibility about the
disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient
is of relevance?
No. such a question is irrelevant and has no practical meaning or utility,
except wasting time.

Basudeb Sen

----------------------------------------------------------
-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

(Note all pastes are from a web friendly Gita but seems not to be in
conflict with Sadhaka-Sanjivani)

Bhagavadgita Ch 4:

11. In whatever way men approach me, even so do I reward them; my path
do men tread in all ways, Arjuna!
34. Know that by long prostration, by question and by service, the wise
who have realised the Truth will instruct you in (that) knowledge.
39. The man who is full of faith, who is devoted to it, and who has
subdued all the senses, obtains (this) knowledge; and, having obtained
the knowledge, he goes at once to the supreme peace.
36. Even if you are the most sinful of all sinners, yet you shall verily
cross all sins by the raft of knowledge.

Ch 9:
2. This is the kingly science, the kingly secret, the supreme purifier,
realisable by direct intuitional knowledge, according to righteousness,
very easy to perform and imperishable.
30. Even if the most sinful worships me, with devotion to none else, he
too should indeed be regarded as righteous, for he has rightly resolved.

Many will quote that B.G. 4:34 say one must have a Guru to gain Moksha,
how often is one confronted with this claim. But it is well worth
reading Swamijis comments, he does link to Ch 39 emphasises Faith.
Ch 4 :11 sets things up clearly showing there are many ways to the
Supreme Lord.
Ch 36 Shows that knowledge will cross an ocean of sins.
But what of knowledge, in Ch 9 :2 it refers to 'direct intuitional
knowledge', and in Ch 30, the most sinful become righteous through a
single pointed worship of Bhagwan. (the word used in Sadhaka-Sanjivani
for righteous read saint).

So all are entitled, to Moksha, any knowledge given by a guru according
to Swamiji should be tested, (look out for tricksters and conmen, plenty
of those), but humility is a great key and faith in knowledge gained.
There is an inner guru for the righteous seeker. I might add what is the
Gitaji is not that a guru. The Sikhs call their Holy Book, Guru Granth
Sahib.

Om ... Shanti ...

MIke
----------------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

My intention of putting these questions as a response to the other question
related to
GURU was just to bring our attention to the very first/fundamental/key/core
point for the
seekers of the TRUTH/SELF/GOD and not lowering the importance of the other
question.

Arjun was with Lord Krishna for many years before the battle, but his real
disciplehood/studentship/seeking/longing for the KALYAAN/Truth/Essence/Self
appeared/emerged only when he realized that nothing in the world can satisfy him
even
if he is made the ruler of the whole world (GitaJi: 2/8). In Kathopanishad, the
Lord of Death
also verifies the same point before handling the 3rd question (i.e. seeking
about the
Self/Truth/Essence) of Nachiketaa. So, in my understanding, unless this point is
is clearly understood, the seeking might not see its end and if there is any
path to end
the seeking, that must have to go through this point. Closure the observation is
made
about this point, lesser the external settings are needed and may be this point
itself could
reveal its clue/origin and ends its journey into that.

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear KrishnaJi,
My intention was more towards the real point (i.e. seeking/attaining the
Truth/Self/God)
whether some one holds it as a disciple or as a follower or as ... But, thanks
for the
clarifying the differences between the follower & a disciple.

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Nag NarayanJi,

Regarding your questions:
1) But can the questions you morphed to aim at disciplehood away from the
teacherhood
be ever answered effectively for one by any other?!

First of all, my question about disciplehood was not to shift the focus but to
understand the
real cause of the other question (i.e. teacherhood) as it is the disciplehood
(which is only in
the hand of the seeker) creates the teacherhood.

2) "To whom will one be a disciple? ".
All the relationships are ONLY with the TRUTH. The seeking itself contains it
root.
Bhagavad Gita says " when one sees that all the feelings/sentiments ( including
seeking,....) of the beings are resting in ONE and are originating from the
SAME, attains
the BRAHM".
YADAA BHOOT PRITHAGBHAAVAM EKASTHAM ANUPASHYATI |
TADEVA CHA VISTAARAM BRAHM SAMPADYATE TADAA || (GitaJI - 13/30).

Thanks to all!

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey
------------------------------------------------------

Desciple … discipline … a personal opinion …

Descipline of a disciple is rooted in the absolute freedom the fellow embraces
to learn and seek The Truth no matter where it comes from. The foundation for
such a discipline (Shraddhaa) is trifold …

Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishThaa |

… a resolute focus (Tapas) to keep the mind always fresh for knowledge to
penetrate and perculate within clearing all possible obstacles;

… an undeterred presence (Dama) in body, speech and thought (Kaayaa, vaachaa and
manasaa) to absorb the knowledge from within and around; and

… persistent pursuation from within (Karma) to cleanse the fellow within and to
purge the ignorance from within

… perpetually.

Once the foundation for the discipline is stable from within, the knowledge
starts building itself around the disciplined naturally ...

Vedaah sarvaangaani |

Deeper and deeper appreciation of the world as well as oneself start flooding in
from all around to fill the skeletal structure founded on the descipline … the
knowledge ought to flow into a resolute, undeterred and proactive mind-body
cluster no matter which direction the fellow is set-in!

The cluster is filled with life ONLY WHEN the fellow is truly and truthfully
submitted to THE TRUTH alone all along.

Satyamaayatanam ||

It is THE TRUTH that fills life into anything and everything. So is knowledge
and awareness. It is one's perpetually resolute, undeterred and proactive
submission to absorb knowledge ONLY TO appreciate THE TRUTH that keeps the
disciple within alive. Being a disciple eternally is all the saadhana about …
keeping THE TRUTH in the pedestal is all the saadhana about.

Therefore, any kind of framework one would try to fit into a character called
"guru" would defeat the very phenomenon. How anything that is bound within one's
imagination can ever sustain the freedom of learning within?! As soon as one
starts conditioning within so as to receive a guru of specific characateristics,
the freedom within is curtailed … the desciplehood is lost as one starts closing
one's eyes toward everything that does not match the image created within!!

Therefore, imaging "a guru" of any kind (and even "a god" as a matter of
relevance) and waiting for his arrival in one's life to resolve all the doubts
one harbors and problems one is infested with is futile in my opinion since the
very expectation is founded on doubt! Acceptance of discipline from deep within
is all that matters. Everything becomes Guru (and God) … in fact EVERYTHING IS
GURU (GOD).

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------------

Those who can sincerely say ' Shishyaha Te Aham, Shadhi Mam Twam Prapanam' he
becomes a disciple. Divine grace starts pouring on him immediately from unknown
corners. He still comes across unsurmountable difficulties, but when he or sshe
is about to breakdown, some myterious events happen to take him out of his
dificulty. Story of Gajendra-Moksha illustrates this in detail. Reqquest some
enlightened sadhak to share this from Bhagwat or famous Surdas Bhajan 'He
Govinda he Gopal'
Jayntilal Shah

----------------------------------------------------------
Friend Dubey,

I can give my version of answers to your question, which may or may not be
acceptable to the more enlightened members, if you clarify whether you mean by
"Disciple" a follower or a Sishya. Mind you, the thousands that gather at any
congregation presided over by a great man; most of these thousands are mere
followers. They listen, read and then go back to their routine forgetting or
just not bothering to contemplate on what has been said and written. A disciple
is closer to the Master or teacher. He spends time to understand what has been
spoken. Sometimes he understands but most of the times he accepts the teacher
out of a superstition.

A Sishya on the other hand, listens to the teacher with rapt attention,
contemplates on what has been said and encounters the teaacher with many
questions. He does not accept anything said by the teacher as "true" unless he
has analysed the issue himself and has come to a conclusion. The instrument of
analysis are the boon from the Teacher. Sishya uses the arrows given by the
teacher back on the Guru as Arjuna did to Drona.

A Sishya's reach extends beyond that of teacher, because he/she stands on the
platform his/her teacher has built. A real teacher wants that, as Krishna told
Arjuna
ITI TE DNYAANAM AAKHYAATAM GUHYAAT GUHYATARAM MAYAA
VIMRISYA ETAT ASESHENA YADHECCHASI TATHAA KURU

tHAT is the relation between Guru and Sishya. Without such guru, such Sishyas
are not made and sans such Sishyas such Gurus cannot exist.
God Bless all
Krishna

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear sadaks,
1) Who is disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient of the knowledge/essence?
2) Are we entitled/competent to be disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient?

3) Do we become disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient by kripa or destiny?
4) Is question/inquiry/eligibility about the disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient
is of relevance?

FOR all 4 questions- The answer is Chitta Sudhi- Clear mind- Purity of Manus,
Buddhi and Body.
B.Sathyanarayan- Chennai

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
Based on how Arjuna has handled himself throughout the dialogue with the Lord
Krishna, here are my answers as I understand them!
1) Who is disciple of the knowledge/essence?

One who has the utmost humility, ready to sacrifice everything for the Knowledge
of Truth/essence, surrendered and taken refuge in God, remaining open-minded for
the knowledge to come from any direction or anyone till Guru appears!

2) Are we entitled/competent to be disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient?

Yes, all are entitled to be such a disciple. What makes one competent, rather,
deserving is the above qualities. When one surrenders within, to the Atman, one
deserves and Guru makes such a one competent enough to absorb the knowledge!

3) Do we become disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient by kripa or destiny?

No one knows what is in one's destiny, it is only after something happens one
can say, it was my destiny etc.. So, the best thing is to be deserving disciple,
and that is the only thing one can do, and leave everything to Grace of
God(Karmanyevadhikaraste....). Sincere attempts to do so never failed in all
such cases. Call it destiny or Grace of God or whatever!

4) Is question/inquiry/eligibility about the disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient
is of relevance?

If questions arise to disciple, then they are of great importance and relevance
for the Guru to know where is he coming from for proper answers. Guru will know
enough to answer those that disciple don't ask or hesitate to ask for some
reasons. Entire Being of Guru is teaching until disciple merges with Guru. God,
Atman is the teacher using the apparent body-minds of both, from one He asks
questions, from another He answers them!
Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt..

------------------------------------------------

The seeker of truth about life will always search for an able Guru to teach him
the meaning of the unsolved mysteries of life and death. We are all competent to
be disciples if our thirst for spirituality is there. We do not go to the Guru.
When the time comes the Guru will come to us. Thus destiny plays a role. Yes the
disciple's question is of relevance because it because of these questions that
the search for a Guru begins.
Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------------------------------

The genuine relation between a disciple and his teacher is quest and discharge
or handing over of knowledge without any mutual obligation.Both learn from
eachother.
subhashtewari

---------------------------------------------------------
Disciple … the quest for learning …

Wonderful Niteeshji! That is the right question … the desciplehood … the one
that keeps digging the Ganges of desciplehood to the surface of one's existence
perpetually to sustain the truth seeking. The freedom a disciple is blessed with
to seek the knowledge is unmatched …

But can the questions you morphed to aim at desciplehood away from the
teacherhood be ever answered effectively for one by any other?!

Whether one is truly a disciple or not …

I am afraid, one needs to look for the answers within … and the quest for
learning can araise and fill the expanse of existence from within only when one
embraces the desciplehood from deep within. Something that is embraced deep
within - not in the apparent behaviors … not even in the inherent attitudes, but
embedded in one's nature deep within - can be addressed only by oneself. Nobody
else can ever answer the questions whether one is a truthful disciple or not.
Nobody else can decide or judge … except oneself … whatever one is - whether
disciple or otherwise!

Whether one is entitled/competent to be disciple …

If at all anyone is entitled for something and is competent to fulfil duties of
… definitely is it is desciplehood one can ever embrace. The decision is
completely vested within - one can always exert the decision to be a disciple
unilaterally. If at all any freedom is vested in one … it is to be a disciple.
Everything else falls in line as soon as one embraces the desciplehood … the
freedom to learn.

Will one become a disciple by kripa or destiny?

I would say freedom can be attained ONLY through freedom. The freedom to learn
and freedom from ignorance can be attained only by submitting oneself into the
very learning freely with absolutely no strings attached. How can THE FREEDOM
that THE TRUTH is ever bind anyone this way or the other?! Waiting for Destiny
or Kripa is just a game played by the tricky ego within to preserve its only
agenda to be shackled within the cocoon of ignorance it has webbed around
itself. One can and only oneself is entitiled to make the call … it is time now
and here … to embrace the desciplehood … otherwise, the ignorance clamours the
fellow tighter and stronger …

Is question/inquiry/eligibility about the disciple/aspirant/seeker/recipient is
of relevance?

Can there be any other quest as relevant as this is?! All other quests -
existential as well as spiritual - are automatically addressed efficiently and
effectively as one embraces this quest truthfully.

Niteeshji, I would like to address an additional burning question that is
setting unrest in many Sadhakas in the forum as well as elsewhere.

To whom will one be a desciple?

Perpetual awareness of being a disciple is necessary as well as sufficient for
seeking The Truth. Disciple of whom is merely incidental. One being or the other
happens to be a starting and continuation points in the journey of learning. All
the beings around are obliged to shower knowledge onto one who has surrendered
to the learning from within. The Guru is always THE TRUTH that eternally
presides within as well as around.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------------------

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Monday, June 27, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: The Population Makes All the Difference !!! Your thoughts !!!

 

This refers to the questioner inquiring about the idea that "in foreign
countries mostly people's character is degrading, adultery, violence and various
sins are also taking place in abundance, then too those countries are
progressing, why is it so?"

Before I respond it is important to note that Maharshi Agast's wife's story is
valid in it's own right. And that is NOT the point I am responding to. After
all who can argue with the Mahabarat? No sane Hindu can do so!!

What I say here is in response to the question that has been asked. I was born
in India and raised in India as a Sanatana Dharmi. For most of my life I have
lived in India and have also lived in "foreign countries" for a number of
years. And can say with conviction that there is clearly a difference in the
values we as Hindus believe in, compared to the values of those born and raised
in "foreign countries". This difference in values often leads us in India to
think of people in "foreign countries" as having "degrading character adultery,
violence and various sins…". We all can choose to believe what we wish to. But
I can say one thing for sure that there is very little difference between the
nature of human beings in India or in the west, apart from our values. There
are good people in about the same proportion in "foreign countries" as there are
in India.

In comparison with "foreign countries" the difference in progress compared to
India which the questioner asks about, in my opinion, this difference in
progress is due to the difference in population. In India if all adults want to
have tea at the same time there is not enough tea for everyone. Or take an even
more basic example, if everyone in India wants to drink water from the tap or
use the fan at the same time, we cannot do so. India's progress is slowed down
by it's incredibly excessive population. Those of us who ask questions like the
one that the questioner is asking, it is perfectly reasonable to ask such a
question because "foreign countries" progress shows that they have more material
progress than we do in India.

When I was growing up in India I was always told that India (Bharat) was the
"sone ki chidiya" and that "doodh ki nadiyan bahati thi yahan". I do not think
that has changed AT ALL. But when the population is one such as we have in
India, that "sona" becomes tin, and the "doodh ki nadiyan" become rivers of
sewage. The population makes all the difference. It is both a blessing and a
curse. It is a blessing because now India is known worldwide as the biggest
market in which to sell products. And every company in "foreign countries"
wants to take advantage of it. But it is also a curse because in the shadow of
the luxury apartments of high-rise buildings there are homeless people living
who often do not have enough food for themselves.

Overpopulation causes poverty, and poverty causes corruption. Consequently, the
problem is not a spiritual or religious one, but one of numbers.

As Hindus we must also remember that yoga is more important than bhoga.

Namaskar,

Biraj

=============================================
Hari Om

I liked the sincerity in Sadhak Biraj. But let me state that connecting poverty with population is absolutely illogical and incorrect conclusion. You do not become poor because of population in India...you become poor because poverty makes you practice austerity which a soul here gets subjected to especially in lieu of its having the privilege of being born in a pious country like India. In this country , you get the best and the most of Mahatmas, the best/ most warriors, the best/most kings, the best/most yogis, austerity doers, intellectuals, poets , the best mathematicians..scientists ... What not ..the chastest of wives, the most obedient sons,... The most God Realised souls.. India is the place for the exemplary conduct of every aspect of spirituality and is the place where mother of all religions, the Sanatan Dharma, is residing ...the place where Holy Ganges flows ...Here there are 6 seasons ( no where else in any country of the world it is so ) , the best rays of the Sun touch its surface and God incarnates ALWAYS AND ONLY in this country !

Just As: Human birth to us is result of special grace of God . Similarly: Human birth in India is super special grace of God.

Actually, the increase / decrease in population is the function of mother nature..a human has no role to play there. Water is flowing...any effort to stop or decrease its flow or to increase its flow is absolutely an error. Both ways it is stupidity. Just As: No interference there is warranted and appropriate. Similarly: No interference in the functions of Mother Nature is warranted and appropriate. If you can't stop some one from dying then what right you have got to stop any one from taking birth? Had your parents too thought like that how you would have come on earth in human life form? Nothing wrong has happened to China because of population. They have made rapid material progress too. I have seen many families with say 10 brothers and sisters...I have rarely seen large families suffering more than say small families ( when you overall and in retrospect) ! Suffering or poverty has no co-relation with population. It is not some one's choice. It is purely dependent upon your past karmas...and in India , which is the mother land of all religions.. the Law of Karma operates at very advanced level and with typicality and speciality of its own . What population has got to do with it ?

India is especially a country which is representative of the traditions of Sanatan Dharma...here any attempt of population control is especially sinful. It is in India where still you can find with certainty people living the true dharma and to stop any natural flow of creation here is attempting to eliminate nobility from the face of earth. If we indulge here in horrendous acts like abortion, foetus killing, contraceptions etc from where the Seers, Saints, Mahatmas, Yogis, Rishis, will come ?

What is so important about so called 'material progress' ? If say , discovery of mobile phone is representative of 'material progress' , then note that ages and eons back Rishis of India could communicate sitting at their place with any one including to people in other universes. Sanjay in Mahabharat war could see what was happenning on war front sitting in Dhritrashtra's palace like we today see the live cricket matches sitting in our home ! There is nothing big or important about so called 'material progress' !

India is a special and exemplary country for spirituality in its own special form and way ! Think like this...and come back.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------

You have written :
Overpopulation causes poverty, and poverty causes corruption.
Yours is an incomplete statement. Apart from this point of view, you must also consider the following differences :
As regards population: area ratio, besides India some other countries also have high ratio, for example Japan, Korea, Israel, Hong Kong, Singapore etc. and these countries are progressing (as per your definition of abundance of food, water, clothing, housing, education etc.) and there is much less corruption there. WHY?
Know the reasons. Very first reason is everyone pays taxes due on income, business, property etc. Secondly every facility provided (like electricity, water, medical, travel, recreation etc.) is fully paid by everyone (none is allowed to evade payments due for facilities availed of). Thirdly, there the people work honestly even if there is no supervision and during work none is allowed to do anything that is not 'work'.
Presently these three are sufficient to say as majority of people in India don't pay taxes due on them, majority of people consume electricity, water, housing facilities without paying for them, majority of people don't work to their full which they are paid for, majority of people want the government to do everything for them and they don't want them to do work for themselves.
Population is no problem if everything is fully paid for and nobody is allowed to hoard more than the quantity needed and this applies to commodities and money both.
People in India are simple believers (less practitioners) in Spiritualism and so there are so many sects of faiths, doctrines etc. when the truth is there is ONE God only because of commercialisation of it.
Please ask again, if answer is felt unsatisfactory.
Humbly,
Sadhaka.

----------------------------------------------------------

First there is spirituality. It is beyond the religion, nation and any other group. In our Hinduism and in Gitaji: it is straight forward. That is why it is a Sanatan Dharma. This level is purely for individual

Then there is Religion. They all interpret according to their own bias. The religion gives more structure and tools to guide and judge the Human Behaviour. In the process we may slip from the path to Pursue Him. That is when He incarnates and shines the light. Even destroying long established rituals of worshiping "wrong" devas, the people in charge. (Indra and Govardhan). This course correction of the society is by Avatar and Enlightened ones.

Then there are culture and society. That is one rung lower yet, to establish and guide human behaviour. It is fraught with pit falls. When drawn to extreme these rules become absurd, and therefore they are always broken at the fringe because they are designed, enforced and utilized by individual with individual interest being Prime.

Those of us who are fortunate to be blessed with enough security, and world view and wisdom have to first improve our selves and see the fallacy and need ingrained in level two and three while we seek guidance from Him.

Gita and Swami shine as beacons for those who feel they are blessed enough !! or those who use them as beacons will have their path made clearly visible.

Every Post shows that light and that is the blessing.

Jay Shri Krishna

Hemendra
-----------------------------------------------------

Sadhakji

Do not forget also 150 years looting that emptied the country leaving it devasted, by the british whose language we now speak

Jayesh
-----------------------------------------------------
Definitely overpopulation is a curse the more so considering that the educated rich have less children while the uneducated poor have dozens. Therefore the poor are increasing day by day and so is crime. This has encouraged corruption since the demand is more and the supply is less. It is high time that those having more than 2 children be denied all the benefits of our so called welfare state before it becomes an ill-fare state.
Hari Shanker Deo

-----------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please read very carefully Swamiji's current Sadhak Postings ! here are a few
points from the recent series ...

The point is that from time immemorial, birth and death is only according to the
system, set of laws and ordinance of God and Nature. i.e. the population growth
is natural from time immemorial. Just as dog, cat, pig have many off-springs
and they do not even do family planning, then too the earth does not appear to
be filled with only these animals; because their survival and sustenance has
been going on as ordained by God and Nature (Prakriti). To interfere with their
ordinance, to be a hindrance, is a sin, it is unlawful.

Only God and Nature knows entirely and fully, when, where, what thing is
needed. That which happens by God and Nature is always alright; because they
have a universal and overall vision, whereas man has small and limited vision.
When even on seeing toward other's welfare, loss is incurred, while taking over
God's and Nature's work into your own hands; then if the sentiments are not one
of seeing to another's welfare, of selfishness, how much more of a loss can
there be on attempting to take the work of God and Nature into your own hands?

The destruction of the power of procreation bestowed by God and Nature is a
great devastation. Of all the various forms of birth, the human birth is the
best of all, then how can there be progress, on stopping and preventing the
power of procreation of that very great form of birth? The end result will be
ruin and devastation only.

If you think deeply, on one had for the progress of the country we are looking
to increase the production, and on the other hand we are curtailing the
production-power. When the producer will not remain, then how will production
and productivity take place?

Just as when many men come to visit the "diner" (place that provides food), then
our work is to prepare more food, not to bar the men from coming. Similarly,
when the population increases, then the intelligence is in increasing
production, not in preventing the birth of people! Even today there is a
shortage of workers in the farms. When there are only one or two children, the
household work itself will not be completed, then who will do farming? Who will
take care of aging parents? Who will service the community and society at
large? Who will sign up in the army? Who will learn arts and crafts? Who
will teach? Who will become well-versed in the knowledge of Truth? Who will
run the factories? Who will innovate new things? You will have deep knowledge
and study of all the scriptures? I get goosebumps simply thinking and inquiring
into what will be the end outcome!

I am neither in favor of increasing the population nor in favor of decreasing
it, rather I am in favor of how people can be benefited. It is foolishness to
desire to increase the population, because this is not man's job, rather it is
God or Nature's (Prakriti) job. It is not damaging for a country to have more
population, rather it is very destructive and damaging to make an effort to
prevent the birth of children through artificial means. From the propagation
and spreading of these preventive measures, there has been increase in explicit
forms of adultery, engrossment in sense enjoyments and various other evils.
Character, conduct, self-control, sense of decency etc. are degrading. When
good character and conduct will not remain, then how will the country be
strong? There is a famous saying in English -
If wealth is gone, nothing is gone, if health is gone then something is gone,
but if character and conduct is gone then everything is gone !
In Japan and other countries there appears to be progress, but it is not due to
the less population, rather it is due to the people that are honest,
hard-working, patriotic, committed to doing their duty and many other good
qualities. The backwardness (joblessness, poverty) in our country is not due to
over population, rather it is due to increase in negligence in duty, bad
conduct, laziness, disregard, corruption etc. But instead of looking towards
diligence in duty, good conduct, self-control, sacrifice etc, the attention is
going towards finding solutions to decrease population, which will increase
these evil tendencies. This is very damaging for the country! Through
proliferation of movies, video, letters and love stories etc. people's
character, conduct is influenced and being made bad. They are being taught
promiscuity, violence, stealing etc. At every place alcohol shops are
opening up, tobacco and "pan", condiments and other things are being
proliferated and bad habits are instilled in people thus destroying their
health. In various different ways people are encouraged to work less, spend
more, and rest and relax more. They are told, work five days a week; do not
open shop on certain days etc. Employees whether they work or they don't work,
they are given full wages, then why should they work more, why to put in more
effort? They play cards, drink tea, smoke cigarettes and "bidi" and wasting
away their time in useless activities. In government offices without bribe no
work is getting accomplished. In ever field there is degeneration of conduct.
Those that are protectors, have become predators. Those who do not know how to
work in a particular post, their appointment to that position is only on the
basis of their "jaati". Those individuals that are qualified, they are unable
to get jobs. Bribes are being taken in schools to get admissions for children,
and this is being called "donation" or "charitable contribution"! In schools,
the educators, teachers are not teaching the children properly, and are
encouraging the children to take tuition instead.
Such is the state of affairs ! (to read more... visit....
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/)

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

===================================================

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[gita-talk] Re: Why Radha - Krishna,why not Rukmani - Krishna?

 


Why is Radha always by the side of Sree Krishna?
Why is there no photos of Krishna with his wife Rukmani?

Jayendra
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Friends,

There is no mention of RADHA in Bhagavat the original source of Krishna’s biography. She was ‘conceived’ much later by the middle age poets.

Sri Krishna never visited Gokul again.


Regards,

Satish Oberoi
------------------------------------------------------

Pranaam Divine Souls:

Radha and Krishna representation has been done incorrectly by the masses. Krishna represents GOD ( Infinite Consciousness) or Creator that is all encompassing and all accomodating.
Radha represents the visible or physical aspect of creation. And creation is always with Creator...As such, Krishna is always with Radha...
Like this, there are many other aspects about Krishna that have been mininterpreted...

Break open the shell of Intuition to reveal Truth given in the Scriptures with the Science of Yoga, as prescribed by Krishna..

Meeramata
----------------------------------------------------

Radha's love, devotion and playfulness with the equally playful boy Krishna represents that part of Krishna's life which we would all like to see lasting for ever, without the complications and worries of the grown up world.
For Krishna as Parmatma out of all his relationships on earth the childhood platonic playful relationship is the one the learned Brahmins perhaps must have thought was worthy of worship and thus it becomes so in time, and for me I think the Brahmins, if that was the case, made a wise decision. Notwithstanding that I think the relationship 'fits in' with the eternally pure teachings of Bhagwan Krishna in his divine song the Gita.
I think the explanations about mythologising these historical events through other explanations like Chand, Kundalini etc. are fine for the more intellectual mind but
if you simply stick to history then its easily understood why Radha and not Rukmani is shown as a worship icon with Krishna and that is for their pure childhood platonic playful love.

anil bhanot

-------------------------------------------
Certainly Bhakti is devoution and is motivated by his attraction,charm and greatness.love and hatred both indulge in their peculiar devoution and both have something linked to his greatness.Rukmani is other half of the lord.
subhashtewari

---------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------

Dear sadaks,
Radha denotes- Bakthi- Always GOD keeps with HIM.
Mother Rukmani is Mahalakshmi is in heart if Sri Krishna-
Bagavan Shiva gave half of HIS roop to Mother Parvathi.
Bhrama gave his tongue to Mother Saravathi.
Sri Vishnu gave HIS heart to Mother Mahalakshmi.
Sri Krishna keeps HIS bakthas always by HIS side.
B.Sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------

My Learned friends,

Though lot is said about Radha and her "attachment" to Krishna and much "porno"
like literature exists about their bodily involvements, some basic truths are
missed. First, there is no separate person like Radha {there is an ugly claim
that Radha is the sister of Krishna's father and such nonsense}. Radha or
Radhika menas "vennela" or the light or brilliance of moon. Moon cannot be
separated from his light. Hence, when Krishna is looked at as the moon Radha,
his brilliance (ChaaMdini) cannot be portrayed separately. They remain united.
Why should Krishna be looked at as moon and not Sun?

Moon, in Indian concept has a 'selfless" characteristic. He grasps "HOT"
sunlight with all its radiation and other harmful effects and releases for us,
cool and soothing Radha. Moon light is essential and helps growth of medicinal
herbs and several other parameters that help beings in the creation. For example
fish in oceans breed faster and stronger in the Sukla Paksha. Krishna, like wise
absorbs the ill effects of the wicked like Kamsa, Kaala Yavana and others and
leaves for his followers the cool and pleasing grace of his love. He does not
scorch like Sun but soothes like moon.

Rukmini, is Lakshmi, the Aisvarya or potential of Krishna/Vishnu. Sree vatsa is
Lakshmi, Aisvaraya or Rukmini and is eternally in the proximity of Lord's heart
or She is the heart of Lord. She need not be depicted separately. Never say
Naaraayana, always it should be Sreemat Naaraayana.

God bless all
Krishna
-----------------------------------------------------

Bhagwan is with Bhaktas. Radha was bhakatni and she is with Krishna. Eternal
love/prem of Radha desrves it. Radha in Dwapura Yug and Mira in Kala Yuga.
K'rishna ever dwelt in their hearts, they became one with HIM.
hari Motwani

----------------------------------------------------------

Radha and Krishna are the symbols of eternal love which transcends all
relations. Thus while Rukmani was married to Krishna, the love of Radha and
Krishna was divine and could not be understood by mere mortals. The photos
referred to are representations by later day artists made according to their own
imaginations since there were no cameras during those times to record
authenticity. Thus Krishna and Radha are depicted differently by different
artists in photos and idols in homes and temples. Theirs is a love story which
has stood the test of time for thousands of years. Radha and Krishna are both
manifestations of the divine which is in everybody.
Hari Shanker Deo

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Dear Jayendra,
This can be understood only if you study/read books on
Kundalini Shakti...
Radha is the embodiment of the Kundalini Shakti,and the
spinal chord which houses the 3 Nadis,while the Gopis the exact number of whom
corresponds to the number of nadis or nerve connections...and so on...
For detailed information,kindly peruse excellent book
Kundalini Yoga,written by the late Pt.Gopi Krishna...

Yogesh Lajmi.
GOOD LUCK !

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Radha is attraction,charms.Rukmani is duty,
subhashtewari

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This is because common people are more interested in gossips of illicit
relationship.

Dr. Rajeev Agnihotri

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Any sadhaks living in Long Island, NY or planning to attend Pujya Murari Bapu's
katha in NY on July 2nd - 10th, kindly email : sadhak_insight@yahoo.com

Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: Why Krishna is called Bhagavan not others though Gita says Vasudeva Sarvam

 


Question is: Paramatma is said to be without a beginning (free of birth) and
without an end. What is the appropriateness of celebrating the birth of Lord
Krishna (Janmashtami)? If it is appropriate then Shri Krishna was born and He
who is born is bound to die with certainty (Gita 2:27) then why has Shri
Krishna been called Bhagwaan in Sadhak Sanjivani by Swamiji? Why has Arjuna
also not been called Bhagavan? when it has been said that the essence of Gita
is "Vasudeva Sarvam" (Gita 7/19)

Kindly please explain

HINDI

prashna hai : paramaatmaako anaadi (aadi-rahit yaa ajanmaa) tathaa anant
(ant-rahit) kahaa gayaa hai. shree krishna-janmaashtamee manaanekaa kyaa
auchitya hai? Yadi auchitya hai to shree krishna janm huaa aur jo janmataa hai
usakee mrityu nishchit hai [geetaa 2 : 27] fir shree krishnako swameejeene
saadhaka-sanjeevaneemen 'bhagavaan' kyon kahaa hai? arjunako bhee bhagavaan kyon
naheen kahaa? jabaki kahaa hai ki geetaakaa saar hai, 'vaasudev: sarvam'.
[geetaa 7 : 19].
kripayaa samajhaayen.
savinay,
saadhaka.

-----------------------------------------

My Friend,

I am happy with your question. True Paramaatma is without a beginning and an End. Sree Krishna, born as the son of Devaki, brought up by the ever scared Yasoda is not Paramaatma who has transfered him(IT) self from somewhere to Vraja. For a certain material purpose an entity with some qualities, as are necessary to achieve that purpose someone is born. "Sambhavaami Atma Maayayaa" does not mean I am born; but suggest that "by my intention such an entity is born or comes into existence." As soon as Krishna or Rama came into this world, they became worldly beings like any body except for some special features. Hence, as you rightly said, Krishna had an end, he died through an arrow. Rama Died. It is not the Paramaatma that "died". It is the being that was born at the behest of Paramatma to achieve a purpose that died. As I said, Krishna was a being with birth and death like you and me; but Krishna and such others had or have developed certain special qualities and hence they are not like me, say.

The set of six qualities: Sourya, Teja, Veerya, Bala, Ksahma, Dnyana and Sama is called Bhaga. These are the special qualities that distinguish people like Krishna, Vyaasa, Agastya and many like them from us ordinary beings. people having Bhaga as their nature are Bhagavaan. Bhagavaan does not mean "GOD" or Paramaatma. Have you read Raamaayana by Vaalmeeki (Sanskrit). In Yuddha kaamda sage Agastya approache a worried Rama and teache shim "Aditya Hridaya". Look at it, it says "Agstyo Bhagavaan Rishih". Agastya had Bhaga and hence he was qualified to the honor Bhgavaan. People like Arjuna did not have many of these six qualities. Arjuna shivered at the sight of Bheeshma and others. How can he be Bhagavaan? Veda Vyaasa was Bhagavaan.

Unfortunately, due to false teachings by self styled Gurus and Babas and Svamis, Bhagavaan has becomee the exclusive of or synonymous to God, who is then dubbed as Paramaatma. Remember Paramaatma has Bhaga; so he is Bhagavaan. But Bhagavaan does not mean Parmaatma. I repeat
Samudrala Krishna

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Very natural and important question put by Sadhakji for all of us!
First of all, Arjuna is not called Bhagvan for the same reason we are not called Bhagvan even as "All there is, IS God, Vasudevah Sarvameti" is the Truth. It is The only Truth, all else is nama-rupa(Mithya) superimposed on IT! However, This statement is inspired by the Vision based on Realization of Truth of oneself, as Self, The Being of all beings, and is true for him/her only!
From the questions of Arjuna to this far in Gita(7:19), it appears that he has yet to realize it as we all do!This experience is unlike all other experiences by mind. It comes from the Grace of God to those sincere seekers of Truth as experiential understanding(Anubhutirupa) leading to this Vision, a spontaneous outpouring of hearts of a Gyani Bhakta! Mind just expresses it to communicate!

Krishna is both, historical one who is born to Devaki and Vasudev, brought up by Yashoda and Nanda in Gokula having playful childhood, etc., and, also the One who Realized Being Brahman, The Existence Absolute, of Sat-Chit-Ananda nature! Sakshat Brahman playing in the Aangan(front yard) of Nand-Yashoda's cottage!
We call such a one as God Incarnate, all Powerful Intelligence taking up a mortal body. It is to bring out the humility in us to surrender our individuality/limitations and Realize the Truth of our ONENESS called God in all beings, leading us to shores of fulfillment and joy. For this reason we celebrate the Janmashtami to inspire us to Realize our Sat-Chit-Ananda nature! It may not be understood as such though!

So, in Gita Vyasji says "Shree Bhagvanu vachah"(Shree Bhagva is speaking), it means Brahman, Wisdom, speaking through Krishna's body-mind. As mortal body of Krishna was born, it passed away in the sense it merged back to its source(is not death really), the 5 Great Elements from which it came into Being upon birth. Body-mind is the TV channel, as though, through which God manifests entire Cosmos for Divine Leela, forgetting first and then realizing "Vasudevah Sarvameti"!

Upanishad says "Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman". Such a Knower is called Bhagvan or God". This Knower, again, is not body-mind based person, rather, every action of such a body-mind sees God in every being! He/she considers they are all Him and deals with them guided by Dharma for the protection of righteousness and greater good! He/she teaches this knowledge to others for their emancipation!
In our time, Ramana Maharshi is also called Bhagvan Shri Ramana.
I would not hesitate to call our Swamiji as Bhagvan too!
More on "Vasudevah Sarvameti" realization later if interest persists .......
Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

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Apparently very interesting and intelligent question. Why should one call a mortal Krishna Bhagwan and discriminate against all other mortals like Arjuna? After all, Bhagwan exists in every little or big thing in this Creation and every little or big thing in the Creation exists in God!
When Krishna is referred to as Bhagwan, it is not the physical body of the human being named Krishna that is what is referred to. The reference is to Bhagwan All Mighty who exists in everything and contains everything. The individual realised soul that experiences this is conceptually in a state indistinguishable and inseparable from Bhagwan. Lord Krishna had been in that State even if was physically seen as a mortal human body. So, he is the Bhagwan. Arjun and others were not in that state of complete and comprhensive realisation and therefore were not referred to as Bhagwan All Mighty.

It is a matter of human convenience to distinguish the individual soul that is liberated from the illusion of Maya through complete realisation of the Self: Krishna was in a state of equanimity, free of sensual desires and beyond pleasures and pains of material life, without greed, anger or attachment and yet with flowing love for all others seen as an integral part of his own exiostence (Biswarup). Bhagwan refers to that state on consciousness. That Consciousness is what was never born and always existed and the cause of every other thing in this Creation. This therefore does not have a birthdate: it does not await a birthday for celebration as it is always in the midst of celebration. But those who are still under the bondage of illusion (Maya) suffer from their attachment tp sensual, materialistic ideas of birthday celebrations. That is how Bhawan made this Creation: all most all elements in this Creation would not be in the State of Consciousness and liberation from the bondage of illusion. Accordingly, all non-realised, non-liberated souls driving human innumerable human bodies have the fundamental duty and right to observe the birthdays of whomever they like, love and follow.

This is simple. By naming Krishna as Bhagwan one gets to know what combination of attributes make a human being merge in God and what does not. Vasudeva Sarvam is known and recommended by many: the one whose life esistence is a running commentary of experience in constant, continuous practice of Vasudeva Sarvam is referred to as Bhagwan by the sainsts who composed the Gita in human words.
Basudeb Sen

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India is a land of rishis, munis and avtaars. Besides the religion followed by the majority, it is the home of Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. Various holy men also preached a variety of faiths and gathered followers. It is said in the Geeta that from time to time God comes to earth to teach the righteous path. One such avtaar or a person of divine birth was Krishna. His life and times show that he was a Parmatma and remains so to millions of his devotees in this world. Many temples, books, bhajans and temples are dedicated to Him. His immortal message of the Geeta could only be that of the Divine. No ordinary mortal could create such a body of work. Arjun was also a great man but had human failings.
Hari Shanker Deo

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Paramatma has no begining and no end, that is the reason why Paramatma is called Paramatma. Paramatma takes the form of Avatara like Bamana, Rama, Srikrishna, Kalki in order to come to mortal world. Avataras come in our world for specific task, once the task is completed they leave the mortal world. By celebrating the birth of Avatara, we just try to respect the Infinite(Paramatma) when he took the form of Avatara. Arjun was a devotee of Bhagwaan but he is not Bhagwaan.

savinay,
saadhaka.(anjishnu )

--------------------------------

The very meaning of the word Krishna is attraction.He is the ultimate towards whom whole phenomenon ploughs and the rest of all are but actors at his influence and are known as gopis.Meerabai has rightly said that He is the only male who charms and the rest of all are females worked by His attraction.
subhashtewari
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