Saturday, April 30, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: Your Duty itself is your Dharma

 

Dear Friends, when Lord Shree Krishna concludes in the Gita that - Your duty
is your dharma, then who can someone have a different dharam, and if a person
consider himself to be a preacher (propagator) of Dharma, then why does he not
educate the people to complete doing their duty? If my point is improper then
please forgive me.

IN HINDI

kartavya karam hi dharam hai

priya bandhuo jab bhagwan shree krishna gita mein sidh karte hain ki kartvya
karam hi dharm hai to kisi ka alag dharam kaise ho sakta hai oar yadi ek
manushya apne ko dharam ka prachrak manta hai to voh logon ko karvya karam pure
karne ki shiksha kyun nahin dete yadi meri bat galat lage to kshma
karna.......hari om tatsat.
balvinder aggarwal

-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

If a preacher does not educate, he is derelicting from his duty. Why does not he do so, who except he himself can reply ?

Your Q apart, it is a fact that 'duty' is a human's dharma as per Gita. Your duty only is referred as 'yagya' / 'kartavya karma' in Gita. Duty is " WHAT YOU CAN DO and WHAT YOU SHOULD DO " ! On 'should' or 'should not' front ..Scriptures are the guide. Each human CAN refrain from doing bad / wishing bad vis a vis others and from understanding others bad. You have done your duty as per Gita completely if you do not do/wish/understand/talk bad vis a vis others. This much we CAN do and this this much we SHOULD do.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------------------------------

Sir,
One acts compulsively as if result (more money, entertainment and so on) will deliver. The illusion of seeking through result adds to pain, compulsiveness. When one questions pain, one inquires through scriptures, Masters and so on. This inquiry when pursued earnestly, lets one drop the illusion. One is grounded to the NOW.
Here any action, one performs is complete as no relief is sought through results, future. One is one with doing. This action is Dharma.
Y V Chawla

---------------------------------------------------

Friends, nowadays the meaning of the word "dharma" (as explained by Lord Shri Krishna in the Geetaa) has been lost. People are considering their own opinions, beliefs, group's views etc. as Dharma. What you have stated is correct that one's duty itself should be considered one's Dharma. can you tell be how one's duty is determined? That "dharma-granth" itself is needed.
HINDI

bandhu, aaj 'dharma' shabda apanaa artha (jo shree Krishna ne Geetaa men kahaa hai) kho chukaa hai. apane mat-mataantarako dharma kahane lage hain sab log.
aapakaa kahanaa sahee hai ki kartavyako hee dharma kahaa jaanaa chaahiye. kyaa aap bataayenge ki kartavyakaa nirdhaarana kaise hogaa? bas, yaheen 'dharma-granthon' kee aavashyakataa hotee hai.
astu.
savinay,
saadhaka.
-------------------------------------------------
The question is important. If duty is dharma, then dharma would be different for
different persons as duty of different persons could be different in someway or
the other. But this dharma is not to be understood in terms of religion. Lord
Krishna in Gita was speaking in the context of a particular situation where
Arjun was not sure what was his duty or dharma. He was unwilling to fight in the
War because he thought his duty was not to (a) fight against his loved friends,
teachers, relatives and (b) bring sufferring to lots of human beings who would
be engaged in the war fighting on both the sides.Lord advised Arjuna that
neither (a) or (b) is a duty: they are the consequences of his fighting. The
first rule was that no duty gets justified by its probable consequences or
effects. So, duty or dharma is not derived on the basis of consequences of
actions in accordance with duty or dharma. The second rule is that the
consequences of actions are not predictable and within the cont
rol of the person doing duty ot dharma. For, no one can really kill or cause
sufferring to others. Whatever is to happen to everyone is all determined by the
laws of Nature as determined by God Almighty. Third rule is that duty gets
derived from the purpose of life to which one is dedicated. Arjun as a warrior
was dedicated to fighting wars and cannot withdraw from fighting so long as
there is a cause for fighting for a Kshatriya.. Duryodhan has already said that
he would not give even a nail-head measure of land of the Kingdom that as per
the generally accepted convention belonged to the Pandavas without being
defeated in a Wariya. Arjun as a Kshatriya cannot say that it is not his duty to
make efforts to regain possession of the kingdom that the Pandavas are entitled,
even if that meant fighting Wars. Also, when there is call given by his cousin
Duryodhana for war, as a Kshatriyta he cannot say that accepting that challange
of war is not his duty. Given the purpose of life
of a Kshatriya, it is the duty and dharma of Arjuna to fight the war as best as
he can instead of leading himself to confusion and weakness by thoughts that
have no relevance to the purpose of life to which he is dedicated as a
Kshatriya. Lord Krishna himself knew that as a Kshatriya it was his duty to
participate in the War and therefore he gave away his army to Duryodhana and
became the charrioteer for Arjuna because both the Kauravas and Pandavas have
sought his help in the War.
Duty and Dharma is therefore to be understood by a person in terms of the
purpose of life to which one has dedicated oneself and the context of the
situation one is facing or is in. One who has dedicated oneself to generating
wealth through entrepreneurship in manufactuiring or trade do not have a duty to
fight wars but has the duty to make all efforts to flourish in business as best
one can keeping within the limits of business laws prevailing in a country. The
person who has dedicated his life for the purpose of pursuing scientific
knowledge has no duty to fight wars but use his knowledge and skills
tocontribute to the further enhancement of scientific knowledge. The person who
has dedicated himself to teaching others as his/ her mission of life must teach
as many people as possible with the best of his teaching capabilty, irrespective
of what earnings one makes out of teaching. Those whose lives are dedicated to
satisfying their desires for sensual, worldly pleasures has
the duty to do all that one needs to do to serve that mission subject to being
within the generally accepted rules and regulations of business. Those who have
realised that fulfilling desires for sensual pleasures is meaningless and
instead have dedicated their lives dor self-realization, have the duty to make
all such efforts like Yoga that would take one progressively towards the state
of Self-Realization or Bliss.
Dharma and Duty in Upanishads and Gita are probably most easily understood in
the above perspective.
Basudeb Sen
-------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
It means that if you are king- you fight your rights. If you are Sanyasin- Do penance and meditation. If you are preacher- then preach the goodness of divinity to all, but do not earn money or get pride or ego, or have trust. Ref: Vivekachudamani. King cannot become Sanyasin, as he is sharking away his responsibility. Preacher cannot become king. So everyone should do their Varnashram Dharm as they were giving birth (Body) accordingly.
If Civil Engineer does surgery on a patient does it look nice or is it allowed. If a person like Buddha abandons everything, then he is seeker. The seeker has to only obtain Gyan not anything else. Ex: Bagavan Vishnu took Vaaman Avathar as a Bhramin. Because only Bhramin are allowed to get Yachaga (Gift from someone). Sri Rama Avathar to live like a perfect Grahasta. Here HE cannot kill even a demon without any cause. But Sri Krishna killled so many demons before age of 12 without much cause. This is permitted in Sastras and in Indian Penal code. After the age of 12, NO one permitted to commit any sin.
B.Sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------

Ram Ram
Balvinder ji

I do not find right word for Dharma in English language. It(Dharma) is
presently defined as 'religion' if translated literally from Indian languages in
English.
Religion can be translated into Sanskrit as 'Dhaarna' which when itself is
translated in English can be defined as 'BELIEF' or religion.
Dharma can be claimed as duty/righteousness/knowledge of what is right and
wrong/what one should do/following the scriptures, among other definitions not
mentioned here.
Examples:
Mother has the obligation under Dharma to feed the child, among other
obligations of Dharma.
That mother is also human so she has the obligation under Dharma to be kind to
all the creatures on earth.
That mother is also a wife so she has the obligation under Dharma to faithful to
her husband.
That mother is also human so she has the obligation under Dharma to protect
herself from chakra of life and death and love and believe in Bhagwaan.
And so on...

Dharma is one, but obligations under dharma, or I should say one's Dharma can be
different,
Examples:
Mother has the obligation under Dharma to feed the child, also obligation to
feed the child under Dharma is there for other members of family but in
non-performing mode, the obligation to perform occurs when mother needs
help/mother is not there/mother is unable to take care of the child/child is
being neglected by the mother etc.

Now, If you are referring to Dharma as a religion, I do not have anything else
to say.

Why do missionaries/propagators spread their religion/beliefs to others and not
Dharma.
Swamiji was asked why do people do this or that, Swamiji said I cannot say why
others do what and why, you should go and ask them yourself, I can only answer
for myself (my recollection).

Dave Mitra

Dear [Gita-Talk] member,

First Dharma: There are many "dharmas", for example, Hindu, Christian, Muslim,
Sikh and others and people are free to follow them under religious freedom. What
God Krishna says in Bhagwat Gita is true and people should follow their own dharma.
But as you see every where, people are following money by any means. For people
physical pleasure is foremost and they don't seem to care about any dharma. You can
see examples all around you.

Preacher (propagator): Today's "preacher/propagator" (PP) are only interested in
fame and money (and of course girls). Instead of teaching "dharma" which is not
popular with thier audience, they are preaching "jokes" about religion and make
people laugh. This way they can attracted more people, get more donations and
build bigger villas for themselves. They are not interested in helping poor Hindus
and when other (for example, Christians try to help them) people then people like
VHP will try to kill them. This is life.

Most people have build a comfortable "belief system" and they hope that their system
will ride them through their lives. Dharma is not part of that system. They are not
worried about what can happen to them in their future and their next lives. When
medical conditions strikes, like diabetes, HBP, cancer and other strikes them they
say "O', he/she got a cancer", or "O' he/she got Parkinson's". They don't care to
look at their karmas of their lives. That's the way things are.

If you want to change the world and their "belief system" then go for it. I believe
that if you want to change your world, then first, change your self. That what I am up to.

Good Luck! Bye!

Notesh Otes
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhak
It all depends on why we go to preacher. I may take it that listening to the preacher as my duty. Similarly who defines my duty matters. Is it myself or others?
Humbly
Veena

----------------------------------------------------------

shree hari ram ram

to gain further insight into your question you may read some of swamiji's
messages, Q&A or related topic -

To understand one's duty -
http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/QA/QA.htm (read DUTY section)

Discovery of Truth addresses Duty and Non Duty
http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/eBooks/Discovery-of-Truth.pdf

------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: What is Sukh? Can it be Defined? What Factors make one Sukhi?

 

swami ji what is sukh .can it be defined .what are the factors that can;
make a person sukhi .
Chaman Nigam

-----------------------------------------------------

all these comments have made me richer ideologically as well as a wide
range of thoughts .many thanks to all the sadhaks

jai shri krishna

Chaman Nigam

-----------------------------------------------------

To feel sense of being Poorna, a sense of fullness with respect to oneself is sukham...
to be at home with oneself...

hdas

----------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Every Jeeva seeks happiness ...wants to be SUKHI ! Actually, he is BLISSFUL by very his very FORM (svaroop). Problem is he wants to be SUKHI with reference to the world and not with reference to the self ! Jeeva seeks , unfortunately, happiness from DUKHALAYAM ...from Jagat. That is called Stupidity / Moorkhata / Agyaan/ Nescience/ Maya ...this very attempt is stupidity. You, yourSELF, are ANANDA by your very SVAROOP ! But due to affinity with body...you are bewildered ...!

Jeeva's attempts to get SUKHA from Jagat is as stupid as any one's attempt of getting food from library (pustakalay) or any one's attempt to 'see' by using ears ! If you want to 'see'...open your eyes ! You can not 'see' using ears or nose ! Similarly..how can you find SUKH from DUKHALAYAM ? How can you find book from BHOJANALAYAM? How can you find food from Vastralayam? Can you ?

Oh...the affinity of Jeeva with Jagat (body) !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------------------------

Sukh in this material world is not a material is the feeling at the particular situation which respect to the surrounding and the same is the consciousness of the human being and his own feeling the worldly affection put him in the situation of the same as is nothing to do with the power of the god.

Saroj Biyani

--------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhak,

happiness is different from wants, desires. wants, desires are worldly as well
as divine. wants and desires are afterall desires only and lead to hopes,
wishes, pleasures etc. no one can be freed from these. simply being honest and
truthful to yourself and being truthful alone is of significance. only TRUTH is
Sukh.

Hindi

Sukh to eechha se juda hai, aab eechha bhotik hai ya adhyatmik hai ...eechha
aakhir eechha hai
aur aasha, umeed ,sukh itayadi isasey paida hotey hain. Insey koi mukt nahi ho
pata bas aapnay aap sey sach
bolna aur saccha hona hi mehtavpurn hai. Keval sach hi sukh hai.

Sadhuvaad
Raina
-----------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

'Sukh' (Happiness) in this mortal world can only be defined as 'absence of dukh
(pain) ! 'Sukh' is of two kinds - One- Relative Two- Absolute ! This world can
provide to you 'relative' sukh only LAUKIK...the Absolute Sukh arises when you
RENOUNCE relative sukh...and seek ALAUKIK. Only God's name, doing
expectationless duty and TYAAG of relative sukh provides you ALAUKIK Absolute
Sukh.

What makes one sukhi ? Answer is found in Gita which says... 'Ashantasya Kuto
Sukhah' (Where is happiness to that who is not peaceful?) ! It means 'Peace' is
pre-requisite for Sukha ! Hence the SOLE factor that makes you SUKHI is presence
of PEACE. Q arises here how Peace arises? Answer again is in Gita : ' Tyagaat
Shantiranantaram' ( Renunciation instantly generates Peace) !

How to become Sukhi ? Saints have said :

Chaar Ved Shath Shastra Main Baat Mili Hai Doy !

Sukh Deeje Sukh Hoy Hai, Dukh Deeje Dukh Hoy !!

( From the study of 4 Vedas and 6 Scriptures two things only emerge. If you give
happiness to others , you get happiness ; if you give pains to others, you get
pains )

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
Pleasure(sukh) and pain(dukh), each carry seed of the other in them. They come
together!
Thus, Sukh as opposed to Dukh has no meaning, as it leads to avoidance of dukh
and holding on to sukh which is not going to happen as life is a step ahead of
us.
We have traveled that path long enough to know this.
Pleasure and pain involve sense organs, mind and body, and hence depends on
them.
Freedom from such dependencies brings in Sukh which is not opposed to anything.
To have freedom from such pairs of opposites is meaningful pursuit.
Then sukh is just a name given to total Freedom, all else is bondage!
Pratap Bhatt

---------------------------------------------------

Sukh is feeling,pleasure and gain we derive from our circumstances and
environment while dukh is what we lose or anicipate to lose out of our own or
others' actions.The lord says that real sukh lies in a sense of detachment with
worldy pleasures and sorrows.
subhashtewari

---------------------------------------------------

NARAYAN NARAYAN.

some unhappy in body, some unhappy in mind, some sad due to lack of money. all
are a bit unhappy. happy is only servant of the Lord.

The mind has become happy and happy. (in favorable situations you consider
yourself to be happy. and in unfavorable situations, you consider yourself to
be unhappy. these are only accepted and believed to be so. it is not so. You
give it a name, but where is it so?
hindi

KOI TAN SE DUKHI, KOI MAN SE DUKHI, OUR DHAN BIN RAHAT UDAS,
THODE THODE SUB DUKHI, -SUKHI PRABHU KO DAS.

SUKH,DUKH APNA MANA HUVA HE. [ANUKUL PRASTHITI HO THO AAP SUKH MANTE HO, OUR
PERTIKUL PRASTHITI HO THO AAP DUKH MANTE HO, YE THO MANE HUVE HE, HE NAHI. AAB
AAP ISKO NAME DE DETE HO.PER HE KAHA.[RAMCHANDRA ]

------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Sukh and Dukh are both sides of the same coin. This is appilicable unto Bhrama
Lok. That is why Bagavan said- Sukh or Dukh should be see equally. King Janaka
seen so while his Treasury was on fire. That is why he was refereed in Geetha.
So many saints of recent times did.
B.Sathyanarayan

-----------------------------------------------------

Sir,

Happiness(sukha) is actual usage of something (anything may be a very small
one), interaction with something at a particular moment.

We link it with "I have become", "I can do", "I have done" like expressions.
These are all thoughts. Mind seeks comfort, satisfaction through thought as if
this comfort can stay. Life unfolds from moment to moment afresh, new. It is
actual interaction with anything or person. The use is always exhilarating- only
the seeking of comfort through thought by treating it as good-bad vitiates it,
is the cause of dukh.

Y V Chawla
----------------------------------------------------

Bhagvad-Geeta Ch.18 verses 37,38 and 39 describe three types of happiness
(sukha) e.g. Sattvic, Rajasic and Tamasic. Out of which Satvic happiness is
something which everyone ought to make efforts for. However, Sattvic happiness
is balanced or equanimous state of mind and is described in detail in verses 20
to23 in Chapter 6. Again verse 27 describes happiness absence of Rajas. The
verse reads as ' Prashanta manasam hi enam yoginam sukham uttamam, Upaiti
Shantrajsam, Brahmabhutam, Akalmasham' - i.e. whose hyperactive mind has come
out of prefix hyper and has become only Active which is further defined as Pure
and established in Brahma or in Himself.
Again Chapter 2 Verse 65 describes Sukha as absence of Unhappiness which can be
experienced by Cheerful mind. I interpret this as mind which experiences its
cheerful state without recourse to excitement. Next verse 66 states that
Ashantasya Kutah Sukham which puts to rest all our questions on happpiness and
advises that be peaceful and peace will follow. Verse 71 describes tools for
achieving these states i.e coming out of 'I' and 'My'.
I have tried to practice this faithfully and have found that perfect happiness
is not possible but we can slowly train our mind to take direction towards
various parameters and can experience increasing happiness from the state from
where we started.
Jayantilal Shah

------------------------------------------------

Ram Ram

Chaman Ji

Ending of all desires can be called Sukh.As swami bruthari said in
Vairagya Shatakam : "who is poor? , person who has big desires is the
poorest."

"Chah gayi chinta miti manua beparvah,jinko kachu nahi chahiye,vo
shahanpati shah" (He who has no desire of any kind is richer than the
richest)

Why do we get sad?
when circumstances/results/outcomes are not according to our
wishes/desire ,we get sad.As Bhagwan said in Gita - Building of
obstruction in the way of desire, produces anger.

What should we do to get rid of sadness.
Stop desiring.

If we stop desiring how can we perform Karam?
I do not say take the path of doing nothing.
Karam are happening even when we are observed as not doing anything.
When we are sitting down,it does not mean that digestion is not
happening.Even sitting down is a karam in itself.The foolishness on one
to that he is the doer of a karam binds him in shackels.Plan,Do,
everything properly and perform which is required/endoresed by
scriptures/performed before by great men,Just take "I am doing/will
do/have done" OUT.This is true in itself.I ask you are we reaaly in
control anyway? If we are in control then why do we get sad/sick/loss of
family/old/loss of property/death?
The fact is that we are not in control of what happens,foolishness gets
us stuck and takes us to the chakra of life and death.

I remember Swamiji told us one story,my recollection follows:
There was this Raja going with his army through a forest,he sees a
Sanyasi sitting in the shadows of a tree.Raja asked Sanyasi "why didnt
you salute me" to which Sanyasi answered "I donot salute my subordinate"
Raja asks in which way he is subordinate to him as he is the Raja and is
in charge of his kingdom and everything that his kingdom covers and
sanyasi doesnt even have proper clothes to wear.
Sanyasi - "everything you say?"
Raja - "yes"
Sanyasi -"if you are in charge of everything in your kingdom then banish
all the flies from your kingdom"
Raja - "I have no power to do that and how am I your subordinate?"
sanyasi - "because I am not in control of anything,I have no desire and
that makes you my subordinate."
The essence of this story is one who doesnt want anything/have no desire
is actually greater than everyone.

Want to be Sukhi = stop desiring !!!!

--
All in my Humble opinion
Daas
Davevrat
ShriSitaRamChandrarpanmastu
Ram Ram .

--------------------------------------------

saadhaka Shree Jayantilal Shahjee!

In Gita 18/37-39 and Gita 6/20-23 and Gita 2/65 the different forms of pleasure
and their cuare have been covered, but "Sukh" has not been explained any where.
Even a happy man is unable to explain his happiness in words, becuase an
experience can one be know by experiencing, not by listening or reading.
Sadhaks have not received an explanation for "sukh" until now. In what states
one gets "sukh", the explanations of those states, cannot be called the
explanation of "sukh". If it could be stated then "Paramatma" (god) could also
be explained and stated. Whereas Swamiji has said that Paramatma cannot be
known, Paramatma can only be accepted (believed). [maanavamaatrake kalyaanake
liye prishtha 46].

Geetaa adhyaaya 18 shloka 37, 38, 39 tathaa adh
yaaya 6 shloka 20 se 23 aur adhyaya 2 shloka 65 men sukhake prakaar aur unake
kaarak kahe gaye hain parantu sukhako paribhaashit kaheen bhee naheen kiyaa
gayaa hai.
sukhee manushya bhee apane anubhavako shabdonmen bataa naheen sakataa kyonki
anubhav to anubhav karake hee jaanaa jaa sakataa hai, sunakar yaa padhakar
naheen. saadhakako abheetak shabdonmen sukhakee paribhaashaa naheen milee hai.
kin sthitiyonmen sukh hotaa hai, un sthitiyonke varnanako sukhakee paribhaashaa
naheen kahaa jaa sakataa. yadi kahaa jaa sakataa hai to fir paramaatmaako bhee
paribhaashit karake kahaa jaa sakataa hai jabaki swameejeene kahaahai ki
paramaatmaako jaanaa naheen jaa sakataa, maanaa jaa sakataa hai [maanavamaatrake
kalyaanake liye prishtha 46].
astu.
savinaya,
saadhaka.

--------------------------------------------------

Ram Ram

Chaman Ji

Ending of all desires can be called Sukh.As swami bruthari said in
Vairagya Shatakam : "who is poor? , person who has big desires is the
poorest."

"Chah gayi chinta miti manua beparvah,jinko kachu nahi chahiye,vo
shahanpati shah" (He who has no desire of any kind is richer than the
richest)

Why do we get sad?
when circumstances/results/outcomes are not according to our
wishes/desire ,we get sad.As Bhagwan said in Gita - Building of
obstruction in the way of desire, produces anger.

What should we do to get rid of sadness.
Stop desiring.

If we stop desiring how can we perform Karam?
I do not say take the path of doing nothing.
Karam are happening even when we are observed as not doing anything.
When we are sitting down,it does not mean that digestion is not
happening.Even sitting down is a karam in itself.The foolishness on one
to that he is the doer of a karam binds him in shackels.Plan,Do,
everything properly and perform which is required/endoresed by
scriptures/performed before by great men,Just take "I am doing/will
do/have done" OUT.This is true in itself.I ask you are we reaaly in
control anyway? If we are in control then why do we get sad/sick/loss of
family/old/loss of property/death?
The fact is that we are not in control of what happens,foolishness gets
us stuck and takes us to the chakra of life and death.

I remember Swamiji told us one story,my recollection follows:
There was this Raja going with his army through a forest,he sees a
Sanyasi sitting in the shadows of a tree.Raja asked Sanyasi "why didnt
you salute me" to which Sanyasi answered "I donot salute my subordinate"
Raja asks in which way he is subordinate to him as he is the Raja and is
in charge of his kingdom and everything that his kingdom covers and
sanyasi doesnt even have proper clothes to wear.
Sanyasi - "everything you say?"
Raja - "yes"
Sanyasi -"if you are in charge of everything in your kingdom then banish
all the flies from your kingdom"
Raja - "I have no power to do that and how am I your subordinate?"
sanyasi - "because I am not in control of anything,I have no desire and
that makes you my subordinate."
The essence of this story is one who doesnt want anything/have no desire
is actually greater than everyone.

Want to be Sukhi = stop desiring !!!!

--
All in my Humble opinion
Daas
Davevrat
ShriSitaRamChandrarpanmastu
Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------

Ram-Ram,
I fully agree with ShriSitaRam Chandrarpanmastu ji.
In whatever situation God puts us in, is to make us a better person. We have to
accept this. When I was a kid, I was beaten badly by my maths teacher. That time
it was great ‘dukh’ for me. But today whatever I am, I owe to him, he made
my mind sharp. Today I feel ‘sukh’ because of that ‘dukh’. So you
can’t say what is ‘dukh’ or ‘sukh’, its our perception that we take
things like sukh or dukh. No one can make us sukhi or dukhi unless we our-self
do so.
Ram-Ram
Ashok Goenka

------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhaks,
Actually there is no Sukha & Dukha . It is all some illutions or Maya. It
depends your situataion and attitude.Same object or situation can be sukha for
some time and Dukha for some time.Dont too much involve in Sukha & Dukha.It
will come & go. Watch every thing as a Sakshi. I+object is material sukha and I-
object is spiritual sukha.

Hari Om!
Shelley Kakkadan

-------------------------------------------------

Nothing in this world can make you happy. We have the example of the Buddha.
Born with a silver spoon he had all comforts that money could buy. But when he
realised that material things could not prevent old age, sickness and death he
started meditating and did not stop till he became Enlightened. Our saints
realised this early in life so they renounced the world. For married people,
this may not be possible but then we can always devote some time to sewa or
selfless service, satsang or keeping the company of good people, sadhna or
spiritual practices and meditation or dhyan. Only this can lead to the path of
bliss which is what sukh is all about.
Hari Shanker Deo

--------------------------------------------------------
What is Duhkha?

We need to appreciate what is Duhkha before embarking on what Sukha could be.

One experiences discomfort or sadness (Duhkha) when one perceives a lack of
self-identity or a threat to a pre-existing self-identity. The mode of
self-identity is almost always bugged by a threat to one's identity from within
and/or around. In fact, one atempts to formulate an identity for oneself only
when one fears lack of an identity within. Also, almost always, one reminds
oneself of any pre-existing identity only when one's existence is challenged for
whatsoever reason. In other words, existence of the notion of identity is the
symptom of a discomfort within - either driven by a quest for filling a
perceived void (looking out for an identity) or by a fear of an imminent void on
the brims (threat to a pre-conceived identity). In other words, one experiences
discomfort as soon as a notion of identity pre-occupies one's system.

Why does one pursue any identity at all? To seek happiness! Though the SOLE GOAL
for any identity is to attain happiness, the finiteness of an identity defies
its very goal of happiness as it (1) binds the person to an image or a notion of
the world around; (2) develops a strong belief of dependence on the worldly
existence; and (3) perculates a fear of loosing the grounds beneath as one
observes the world to differ from one's agenda often. One relentlessly generates
identities to supplement the whithering foundations of the existing ones. The
state of such an existence can be nothing but discomfort (Duhkha). That is the
parady one recycles oneself in one's existential quest. The reason for this
ignorance is one's belief that one's happiness is rooted in the stabilbity of
one's identity!!

The very cognizance of an identity for oneself is the discomfort (Duhkha). Why?
Any identity REQUIRES to confine one to be an idvidual of a finite nature. The
finiteness of an identity will line-up onseself alienated from the rest of the
world pitting oneself in a competetion against infinite things around generating
a perpetual perception of threat to its very existence. The confinement means
loss of freedom and lack of completeness. Loss of freedom reminds one's helpless
pre-disposal to the dictates of the worldly existence and its perpetual decay!
Lack of completeness reminds one's fragile existence as the aliens around
continue to dismantle the stability established in one's identity sooner than
they are formed!!
Why such self-contradictions? A tri-fold ignorance - (1) one beleives one's
existence is tied to an identity perceived, a change within; (2) one does not
know how to generate an identity without the change in the world around; (3) one
insists an eternal stability (NO-CHANGE STATE) for the identity brewed from the
ever-changing images of the perceived world!

One's identity is invariably conjoined with one or more attributes of the
physical world around in terms of notional ownerships on objects, relations and
emotions. Therefore, one's discomfort (Duhkha) is always rooted in the material
world. For this reason, one often concludes the world to be a Duhkhaalaya.
What, in fact, meant by this is the abode of one's miseries rooted in the world
around - not the world around itself. Of course, the individual that experiences
the emotions is solely responsible for all the emotions as susch. The world
continues to be as it ought to ... it does not, rather it cannot change its
course for any individual emotional needs and demands. It is the lopsided image
of the world one builds within in a futile effort to fill the void within (lack
of individual identity) that truly is THE DUHKHAALAYA.

Sukha, then, should be whatever Duhkha is not ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------

... contd.

What is Sukha?

One experiences comfort or happiness in a state wherein one does not find
oneself confined by any identity. Unlike Duhkha, Sukha can be of two different
types as Swamiji points out beautifully ... painful pleasure and eternal
pleasure!

1. When one attains happy state with the external help, we often call it Sukha.

One attains this state as soon as the quest for identity is quenched with
material attainment though as momentarily as the material existence could be. It
could be psycho-somatic teachings applied as opposed to the apparent thoughts
and emotions one exhibits in one's mind when the identity quest charms the
fellow from within. It could be with electro-chemical assistance as administered
against the apparent electro-chemical signals that are triggered in one's body
when an identity crisis swarms the fellow from around. However, this is
crippled by a serious side effect - addiction, a self-crippling dependence on
the very medium that is beleived to have brought in a sense of freedom and
completeness momentarily!

The treatment remains as intensive as the desease would have crippled the
fellow's confidence to face the same. It could be just a sip of coffee or a
counselling or alcohol or sedatives. More helpless one becomes, more intensive
the therapatic needs would become! More intensive the therapy becomes, more
helpless one would become!! Therefore, such Sukha is actually is an agent of the
Duhkha committed to nurish its master to greater intensities and dimensions!!!
Rather such Sukha is, in fact, Duhkha in disguise ensuring its addiction
snowball around its target ... just like fruit is developed around the seed only
to promote the seed further.

2. When one attains happy state naturally with no external stimulii, we refer to
it as Aananda.

This occurs when one just remains happy within for no reason as scuh. When one
is CONTENT within for just BEING oneself ... with no demands to HAVE any that
binds one into themselves ... one remains BOUNDLESS with no intent to be
something ... FREE of any identity quests and COMPLETE in just being as ever ...
JUST BE ...

Yastvaatmaratireva syaat aatmatriptashcha maanavah |

No identities to seek from within ... no demands to have any from around since
no quests arise from within to be quenched ... one is just happy for JUST BEING
...

Aatmanyeva tu santushTah tasya kaaryam na vidyate ||

Is Sukha different from Aananda?

Nothing can be different from this Aananda as THAT is THE VERY BEING that
generates, sustains and absorbs everything all the time everywhere! In fact,
even the momentary Sukha shows a glimpse of the same state - content and free
that one ever IS! The only problem with this is the ignorance that tags along
... one's attention is on the material that is enabling the state rather than
the state itself :(. This ignorance cripple's the gullible fellow not letting to
even wonder the sovereignty of the state attained for a moment.

All that material help could do is to cripple the mechanism - mind and body - in
which one unleashes one's identity quest. As soon as one regains the mechanism,
the pented-up quest for identity floods wilder and bolder! It is one's
misfortune to attain momentary death (lapse of self-awareness) in Sukha when
there was a perfect opportunity to attain Self Awareness ... IF ... ONLY IF ...
the fellow turned around to wonder the state attained rather the craving the
agents adopted ... the coccoon of Duhkhaalaya would crumble as all the worldly
dependencies perceived within whither away as the clouds would under the bright
sun ... and the butterfly would fly into THE INFINITE FREEDOM that EVER IS as no
dependencies on anything would remain to shroud the fellow anymore ...

Naiva tasya kritenaartho naakriteneha kashchana |
Na chaasya sarvabhooteshu kashchidarthavyapaashrayah ||

The CONTENT FELLOW remains as one ever IS ... AANANDA alone remains as eternally
as IT EVER IS ...

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------------------

shri g.b .thanks for your comment jai shri krishna
Chaman Nigam

---------------------------------------------

Fellow learners,

I suppose Sukh is for Sukha and Dukh is for Duhkha. Shri Satyanarayana's answer
is strange. They are two sides of the SAME COIN, he says. Fine, but what is the
coin itself. I do not know about Janaka's treasury being on fire. He is cited in
Bhagavd Gita for a different reason, in fact for a reason that is opposite of
Satyanarana's reason.

In chapter 3, Karma Yoga, a few things like the compulsion of action (Karma) in
spite of being and gaining Dnyaana; and responsibility of Dnyaani/ Sreshta in
working or doing Karma to set an example to the non learned (yadyat AAcharati
SreShtah .. ) are brought out thru examples of people who were Dnyaanis and
hence Sreshta, but kept working and going thru the ups and downs as any common
man would do with aplomb. They go thri the rigmarole to show the right attitude
to others and achieve there by "Loka samgraha".
Foremost among them was Janaka. He was a king; and as a king he would have
fought a few battles. He did so not with the expansionist purpose but as it was
his duty. He might sentenced a thief, murderer, a rapist to death, not because
of any personal hatred to the sentenced man but as a part of his duty. He has
done the job without any attachment. Asaktah chikeershuh Loka Samgraham (3.25).
Such examples are rare to find. That is why Janaka is cited.

Sukha and Duhkha are time dependant. Sukha turns to Duhkha and the other way
with time and season.

MAATRAA SPARSA ASTU KAUMTEYA SEETOSHNAA SUKHA DUHKHADAAH
AAGAMA APAAYINO ANITYAAM TAAM TITEEKSHAH SVA BHAARATA 2.14

On windy winter day in Shimla, you would request Sun to come out of the cloud
cover and heat you up, for it then gives you Sukha; But you would request the
same sun to behind the same cloud on a summer midday in Jaisalmer because the
same Sun is giving you Duhkha. Perhaps the awareness to physical comfort is Shri
Satyanarayana's COIN.
God bless you all
Krishna

-------------------------------------------------

many thanks to everybody who have responded to this query .i think
this is a very common thought which comes to every body if not
frequent at least often .my own observation is artist paniter,
dancer, performer ,scientist or a doctor they get the type of
satisfaction from their work can be described SUKH .for a common
person one may get it from doing something for others while some get
it from getting others to do for them .then it differs from person
to person.one may get it from being richer then more richer ,one may
get it from power and all this we are seeing today.are all those
people who achieve whatever they wanted have the feeling of SUKH .jai
shri krishna

Chaman Nigam
---------------------------------------------------
There is slight correction in my previous writing on the subject. In the last
paragraph, I have written ' be peaceful and peace will follow' should be
corrected as ' be peaceful and happiness will follow.'
Jayantilal Shah

-------------------------------------------------
Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar,

Sukh or dukh are the states of mind, Vikaras, depending the biochemicals formed
in the brain in appropriate centers. A sparsh of beautiful, handsome young and
attractive individual of opposite sex will induce kaama and you will enjoy the
presence of that person, while a sparsh of an ugly, dirty and old person will
create repulson and you will avoide the presence of such person.

The dependence of the states of Mind...sukh or Dukh has been proved by modern
science. Taking a tablet of pain killer will inhibit your pain while taking a
tablet of viagra will induce the kama.

Yogis realised these facts long before and with their will power, they were able
to supress the concerned biochemicals. They could control the anger, kaama,
hatred etc. Some vikaras can also be controlled by diet.

Gee Waman

----------------------------------------------
Dear ALL,
Namaskar!

Sukh can be defined as THE state of mind frames just after fulfilling a
particular desire of any type say Satvick. Rajsik or even Tamsick. The main
factor required to be Sukhi is to remain contented in all the circumstances!
Meaning, even if after trying one's level best to fulfill his some desire, his
failure should not deter him from getting his peace of mind disturbed. In
failure in getting his desire fulfiled, he should know how o enjoy!! He can do
it by paying deep attention to B-Gitas Mool Mantra:

KAMANY VAADIKARSETE, MA FELASH SHU KADACHAN cHAP 2, VERSE 47
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

------------------------------------------------

Chamanjee! What is 'mithaas'? mithaas = sweetness. Can you define it? What are
the factors (not substances) which enable you experience sweetness? Please reply
in detail. Then I shall define 'sukh' and shall tell you the ways one can
experience it at will, independent of any person, place, thing, happening or
whatever is sensed by senses. What Swamijee gave me, shall be forwarded to you.
So be it.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

--------------------------------------------------------

yeh meri alp budhi hai maf karna.
when any one is not intrested in the taste of any thing in this universe,and he
do only kartavya karma toward's his relatives,friend's,society even for his body
and drshya & adrishya prakriti. he feel him self totaly involved in his ATMA
[the power of prashakti lord krishna.].
when a person get no effect of +ve and -ve reaction of any situation of
life is only 'SUKH'.................. HARI OM TATSAT

Balwinder Aggarwal
-------------------------------------------------------

Sukh is defined in two ways:
1. A state of existence in which physical, mental, emotional happiness occurs.
One's body, mind, intellect, heart are all filled with happiness being satisfied
and content with whatever one gets, experiences and there is no diassapointment
on any count.
Any element of disappointment, dissatisfaction, feeling of not having some
desire or want is an existence of dukh. Unfortunately, such sukh or such dukh
state of existence is temporary and comes in cycles and often in mixtures of
part sukh and part dukh.
2. Sukh is also defined as a state of blissful existence when sukh or dukh as
defined in 1 above finds no place - there is no unfulfilled desire and no
undesirable, unfavourable element: every thing in and ouside one's body, mind,
intellect and heart seems pleasant: there is no discrimnation between happiness
and sadness, fulfiment and unfulfillment, satisfaction or dissatisfaction,
pleasure or displeasure, no appointment or disappointment. There is just an
existence completely unified with the entire Universe and creation: one is just
an oberserver finding everything that he observes as engrossing, transparent,
logical, natural play of his own being.
This is what Gita Sahdhaka is aspiring for to experience irrespective of what
happens to rhe external environment, the body, mind, intellect and the heart.
Basudeb Sen

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Chaman Nigam,
Allow me to offer my explanation...very
briefly...
Sukh or happiness or the feeling of happiness(to
be exact), is a state-of-mind, at that moment of time...naturally,it means, the
satiation of one's desire,need and/or wants,at that particular point in time...
There is a lot of difference between Happiness
and Bliss...the one is temporary,while the other is of a more permanent
nature...and deeply felt and satisfying...
In general, in day-to-day life happiness is what
one feels when one's senses are satisfied/gratified...but this happiness is only
short-lived...till such time, when another desire or need arises and seeks to be
satisfied...!
Yogesh Lajmi.
GOOD LUCK !

-----------------------------------------------

What is Sukh? Can it be Defined? What Factors make one Sukhi?
============================================================

What is "sukh"? Sukh is Spiritual-sukh. Yes, It is
well defined in Bhagwat-Gita. We will talk about these
factors.

Spiritual sukh is when you "surender" yourself to God and
enjoy the devotion to the lord with no "physical thoughts"
in your mind. This can be achieved in about six months.
This sukh will not bring any bad-karma. So factors are (1)
clear your mind of any physical thinking (may take six
months or so), (2) pray to god for almost all the time
in your thinking / imagination, (3) enjoy this acitivity.

Physical sukh, as we know sukh to be, in this physial
world, will only bring bad karma, to be paid later in
form of "dukh". If you are looking for this kind of sukh
then go for it and pay for it later.

Good Luck! Bye!

Notesh Otes
----------------------------------------------------

Life itself is nothing but only vibration ("Spandan"). The moment you can
synchronize it with the cosmic vibration ("AUM"), you have achieved the
happiness which is "Anandi (rootless) Ananta (infinite) Arupo (without shape)
Nirokshoy (never ending)", am I correct my dear Chamanji. Please try and get it
yourself what I mean,best of luck, Barin Chatterjee

-----------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari.

Chamanji, what do you think? Most probably, you know the answer. You are looking
it outside but it is within you.

At His feet in service,
G B
----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Chamanji, Please read from Book - DROPS OF NECTAR
Topic # 1 - Eternal Pleasures (Avinaashi Sukh)
Topic # 48 - Pleasure and Pain (Sukh aur Dukh)

LINK: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/ebooks.html

For reading in HINDI, click on "BOOKS in HINDI" from the ebooks page and read -
AMRUT BINDU (# 1 AND # 48)

After reading, please share your insights with the group for the benefit of all.

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Thursday, April 28, 2011

[gita-talk] Your Duty itself is your Dharma

 

Dear Friends, when Lord Shree Krishna concludes in the Gita that - Your duty is your dharma, then who can someone have a different dharam, and if a person consider himself to be a preacher (propagator) of Dharma, then why does he not educate the people to complete doing their duty? If my point is improper then please forgive me.

IN HINDI

kartavya karam hi dharam hai

priya bandhuo jab bhagwan shree krishna gita mein sidh karte hain ki kartvya karam hi dharm hai to kisi ka alag dharam kaise ho sakta hai oar yadi ek manushya apne ko dharam ka prachrak manta hai to voh logon ko karvya karam pure karne ki shiksha kyun nahin dete yadi meri bat galat lage to kshma karna.......hari om tatsat.
balvinder aggarwal

-------------------------------------------------

shree hari ram ram

to gain further insight into your question you may read some of swamiji's messages, Q&A or related topic -

To understand one's duty -
http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/QA/QA.htm (read DUTY section)

Discovery of Truth addresses Duty and Non Duty
http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/eBooks/Discovery-of-Truth.pdf

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[gita-talk] Re: On Reincarnation and Birth in another Species per Hinduism

 

I have a quick question. In reincarnation, people are reborn. What does Hinduism
say about being born as another species-i.e. some kind of animal. This is
de-evolution and I am not sure about it. Please quote from applicable scriptures
to support your answer.

Thanks
Dharanjit Singh

-----------------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
When we say "people are reborn", who are "people"? is this body and all stored up in memory (mind) as likes/dislikes, emotions, beliefs, ideas, opinions etc which I call "me" the real "I"?
If not, then who is reborn? Body is integration of five great elements, which disintegrates upon death and new bodies are put together by recycling of these elements over and over. Similarly mankind's likes/dislikes, beliefs, ideas etc acts as though an endless stream of Human Consciousness carrying these imprints(Vasanaas) across generations( mass or collective Karma-subtle body of sanskaras) which gets recycled in various bodies. Since our actions are results of such sanskaras, they make us suffer mostly acting as bondage!
But this is ignorance of taking ourselves to be such an individual with these imprints in our consciousness instead of taking our stand as this Pure Consciousness free of imprints which is the only Changeless present while sustaining the recycling process until the ignorance ends!
Ending of ignorance is the ending of such an individual, "me"!
This is the end of Karmas or burning of Karmas in the wake of Self Knowledge as they call in Scriptures!
Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

1) According to our sastras which gives exact particulars that even scientist cannot know, there are 84,00,000 spices (Bird taken as one spices- Cow taken as one spices etc )

2) True that, the Bible refers to Soul Transmigration. Bible not understood in deapth.

3) We have obtained these, Kama krodha lobha moha mada Matsyara over several births from animals, birds Etc. Animals have Kaama. They do enjoy- but not like us- we see other humans and our own selves in kaama by live shows- sex sites etc which is called lust. Animals fight in anger, but anger disappears next minute, there animals save their food for next day, tiger or lion has Mada, fox has lobha, so on. We were not satisfied in Kaama earlier, so these interests dwell in us. Animals enjoy Kaama by instinct in open and they do not care who watches or not, because they are NOT provided with 6th sense discrimination (Vivechana). 6th Sense given to human only to discriminate good and bad, necessarily or unnecessarily, defense mechanism to humans to defend and live the life usefully and not waste.

4) Many animals are made of pancha boothas. Clear in scripts. Read Srimat Bagavath.

5) VISWA is within reach of Human brain. If one can sit like Buddha or stay 46 days in penance as Chrisht did on mountain, like Tukaram who learnt about the whole Viswa- Read Tukaram Abang where he speaks about whole Viswa. Other than these there are scores of Saints who tuned mud into food, Sri Ragavendrar Swamy made river give way, Gyaneswar made wall to fly in space, Namadev fed God Vital in Panderpur- whereas to others saw Vital was a statue, of recent times Bala Yogi of Visakapattinam and Vallar of 19th Centaury disappeared in thin air. Other than these saints, there were Rishis, who traveled to Kalash, Vaikunt (Trillions and Trillions of miles away in space through black hole). These Rishies have said how Vaikunt – Kailash looks like. Why in Geetha Bagavan HIMSELF has said, one can become like Him.

The whole secret lies in overcoming the 6 enemies say Prahalad and Durva. For ordinary Knowledge of medical, engineering etc we struggle for 5 years. Then for priceless knowledge of self realization- what should be our efforts?

Do not keep talking of body and soul- put in practice. When Tukaram was called to Vaikunt, he just left his family (Who were also called but refused) behind, Baktha Gora killed in 3 year old son in mud trampling- but said that much is the life span of his son given by Vital and nothing to lament upon. Vital worked as Servant in his house. Saint Poothanam, only child was made to die by mistake of his visitors- he said, "Oh Bagavan Sri Krishna when you are my child why should I worry of this child being dead". When these men put in practice, they were called to Vaikunt alive in flying Puspaka Vimaan. One can see the place where they flew even today.

Even in Geetha in certain places only it is spoken about the Athuman and body as separate. Not in whole Geetha. More spoke of realization of our Gunas and way to live.

Bagavan Visnu from Vaikunt, why should HE take 9 incarnations? From the 1st Incarnation to the 9th, they had death. But NOT like us. Anyone coming on this earth have to leave one for certainity. But during given span of life- one has to achieve his goal of realization.

B.Sathyanarayan

---------------------------------------------------------

I'm somewhat confused. My understanding of "I" is this "mind, intellect, ego" complex, we can call it MIE complex, but an empty nothing. This MIE complex is an empty shell. The omnipotent, shines his devine light in this shell because of his grace, but MIE fails to see the grace. Trying to instead fill this shell with the darkness of material possessions to ensure the survival of this complex (vasanas). Of course in the material world there is an eternal law of action and reaction. Thus MIE keeps reacting to reactions. Vasanas can never be fulfilled. And "HE" with HIS grace assures the survival of this MIE complex, as long as MIE wants it. Once again that is his grace too. Only way out is to surrender. "sarva dharman parityajya..."

Hemu Parikh
--------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Smt Thavudammal is maintatinig about 150 animals /cattle in her farm ; She once treated her cow with wound in horn infected with maggots. She was unable to cure the chronic case . She was dejected with treatment and prayed to Lord Krishna. Immediately Lord replied to Thavudammal that in the last birth of cow she was born as a brute person ( Maravan in Tamil ) and responsible for many murders (killed many people ) and therefore in the next birth becme born as cow in her farm and able to suffer with chronic wound. A human being can also lower his status becaue of bad karma and may born as animal and it is possible.
P.Vivekananadan
-------------------------------------------------------
Reincarnation: Pros And Cons

1. Source
Reincarnation is an inherent part of several (mainly Eastern) philosophical traditions like Buddhism (Buddha: "I have run through a course of many births looking for the maker of this dwelling and finding him not; painful is birth again and again.Now are you seen, O, builder of the house; you will not build the house again. All your rafters are broken; your ridge-pole is destroyed; the mind set on the attainment of nirvana has attained the extinction of desires.[Dhammapada XI. Jaravagga /Old Age/ 153,154]), Taoism and so-called Hinduism (the proper name is Vedic dharma or sanatana dharma). Here it finds its greatest and deepest elaboration and therefore this article is based solely on Vedic sources, mainly Bhagavad-gita (BG) and Bhagavata Purana (BhP), also known as Srimad Bhagavatam. As a side source is used the Bible, KJV.

Vedic tradition is based on the revealed knowledge (sabda), which has the power to change the life of listeners and liberate them from the dictate of mind and senses (contrary to an ordinary sound). It is self-evident and it does not need confirmation by other means, just like a food is fully capable to appease a hunger.

This knowledge was written down in scriptures called sruti (four Vedas - Rg, Sama, Yajur, Atharva, and related scriptures like Upanisads), smrti (Puranas, Itihasas - Mahabharata, Ramayana) and others. It is transferred by a succession of spiritual masters and disciples (parampara) which assures its intact preservation:

iti susruma purvesam ye nas tad vyacacaksire
"We heard this knowledge from ancient teachers in age-old tradition, who explained it to us." (Kena Upanisad 1.3-4)

Other main sources of knowledge - sense perception (pratyaksa) and logical analysis (anumana) - are imperfect and cannot reveal the higher reality.

Vedic education starts where Western science and philosophy ends - by understanding the difference between a living and a dead body.

2. Historical overview
Reincarnation fits into the scheme of nature and cosmos characterized by constant cyclic changes. So even without any higher knowledge one can conclude that this human life is not all in all. Reincarnation, a part and parcel of Vedic paradigm, used to be accepted all over the ancient world. This suggests a broad Vedic influence in the distant past. In the ancient Greece there were still philosophies similar to Vedic ones, which incorporate reincarnation (Plato, Pythagoras).

This paradigm was, however, challenged by Abrahamic traditions, which largely (with exceptions) deny the existence the living being (jiva, or atma) outside the body and by denying its pre-existence they claim that it is created at conception. It is, therefore, seen not as a part of the spiritual, but of the material world. Their view of human life and universe is linear - there is one birth, or creation, and one death, or destruction. These are preceded and succeeded by eternity. This lead to a paradigm collision, result of which permanently influenced the whole Western civilization.

3. Arguments from logic
Most of attacks against reincarnation came from early Church Fathers. They directed their criticism mainly at Plato and Pythagoras. Usually they could not understand how could a human being become an animal and thus lose one's developed intellect. Unfortunately, they often replace their lack of counterarguments by vulgarity (e.g. Gregory of Nyssa, "The Making of Man" 28:3; Basil the Great, "Six Days Work" 8:2; or Lactantius, "Epitome of the Divine Institutes" 36).

Today these attacks continue but as before they are characterized by incomplete or wrong understanding of reincarnation. Although they employ logic and scripture (Bible), at best they refute only a strawman created from various misconceptions of reincarnation.

Here is a list of arguments against karma and reincarnation with their refutation based on logic and Vedic scriptures.

3.1. What is the sense in being punished for actions we do not remember? (Irenaeus etc.)

Church Father Justin Martyr (2nd c. AD) in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, ch. 4, mentions reincarnation of men into animals. Trypho disagrees but his counterargument - that those punished in this way do not remember their guilt and therefore such punishment has no meaning - is purely subjective because sometimes the conscious memory of past lives (janma-anusmrti) is retained (see below). Generally, however, it is not preserved, so this argument is at hand.

BhP 3.31.20,23,24 says that this forgetfulness is caused by maya right after birth. We forget even things from our present life and if we would remember everything from the past it would lead to a mental collapse.

BhP 3.26.30 says that memory (smrti) is an aspect of intelligence (buddhi), which is a part of subtle material or astral body (linga sarira). It gradually moves from one gross material body (sthula sarira) to another. Our experience is stored in subtle material body in the form of records or imprints (samskaras). Wrong action from our past we subconsciously recognize thanks to Paramatma (localized aspect of God in heart enabling memory and forgetfulness) and feel in the form of guilt. This tends to prevent another wrong action of the same nature. Paramatma shows what is right and what is wrong even to those who don't know scriptures. Thus character is also a sort of unconscious memory. (Srila Prabhupada defined character as a result of gunas's acting. Sattvic character according to him means to avoid the four sinful activities.) More noble people already learned their lessons in previous lives. This is a personal evolution. Geniality can be understood as its one extreme form.

Full recognition of right and wrong we experience at the time of death under the supervision of higher authorities - devas and Paramatma. This is also confirmed by modern NDEs.

Second argument of Nyaya philosophy for the existence of God (i.e. existence of various beings in various situations in this world) suggests the need of continuity of reincarnation (BhP 4.29) to assure justice.

How karma molds our body can be understood by this analogy: If we take our gross material body as a tree and a subtle material body as its root, then if the tree is cut (death), the root survives and a new tree can sprout from it; if the original tree was subjected to any negative influence like radiation (negative karma), the new tree will also be harmed.

In some cases the conscious memory of past lives is preserved. Such persons are called jati-smara ("those remembering their previous birth"). As examples can serve Narada Muni, BhP 1.6.4 etc.; Maharaja Bharata, BhP 5.8.27, 5.12.15; Maharaja Indradyumna, BhP 8.4.11-12; Asamanjasa, BhP 9.8.15-16; Maharaja Nrga, BhP 10.63 etc. This ability comes from Paramatma, the supreme witness directing the karma dispensation and reincarnation directly and indirectly (through deva Yama).

This experience should open our eyes and bring us to search for the cause of suffering. Previous life can be ascertained by regressions, advanced astrology (both are imperfect, belonging to anumana), one's purified consciousness with the help of Paramatma, thanks to liberated, saintly persons who can read others' samskaras, or with the help of dharma-sastras which describe specific karmic reactions for specific sins. Ignorance of law (dharma) is no excuse.

More important than study of one's previous lives is to "play with cards in one's hand", or live the best way in this life, without being attached to the past which cannot be changed. Bhakti-yoga helps to recover our original, immaterial body (svarupa) in God's realm (Vaikuntha-loka).

3.2. Situation in the world, and especially in India, gets worse and worse, so there is no alleged elevation of reincarnated beings.
The improvement happens gradually, slowly and on a personal level. Current state of the world reflects the situation of Kali-yuga, the last of four cosmic ages, characteristic by the greatest decline of dharma. At the end of this age, after some 427,000 years, things will be much worse. We should therefore feel some urgency regarding our return home, back to Godhead.

3.3. Reincarnation leads to falldowns of jivas.
This is true only for those in human bodies, not following scripture and not trying to improve one's material or spiritual position. On the other hand, jivas in sub-human forms automatically ascend to higher forms until they reach civilized human bodies and can utilize their free will.

3.4. Sati rite suggests the husband and wife stay together in the afterlife.
Husband and wife leave for higher planets (svarga-, pitri-loka) and stay there as long as their pious credits allow. Then they have to return (reincarnate) back to the earth (BG 9.21) without any assurance of rebirth together.

3.5. Sraddha rite assures the person to stay in higher realms without reincarnating.
Also Yama-loka (Pitri-loka) is sometimes described as an eternal abode. They reincarnate after periods of various length which can be prolonged by offering the sraddha. Eternal stay up there would be theoretically possible if sraddha would be offered eternally. Although followers of Vedic dharma can go to svarga-loka (heavenly abodes) their stay there must end latest at the destruction of the universe. There are also partial destructions which include svarga at the end of kalpa.

3.6. Devas are dispensers of justice, not impersonal karma.
Karma presents infallible justice. It is a part of a system designed and maintained by the Supreme Person, so there is no question of it being impersonal. BhP 3.31.1 says "karmana daiva-netrena" - Karma is supervised by the Lord Paramatma in the heart. In BhP 7.9.41 Prahlada Maharaja begs the Lord for mercy to remove the karma. According to BhP 5.26.6, 6.1-2, Yama is its dispenser directly empowered by the Lord.

3.7. Atma is impersonal but the soul preserves the attributes of personhood.
Atma (jiva) is personal, individual particle of God and in its conditioned state it accumulates karma because it has free will.

"Soul" is actually a very vague term. Man does not cease to exist at death (this idea is found among some followers of Abrahamic traditions), it is a person, jiva, in human body who simply changes bodies and suffers/enjoys one's own karma, not only in the physical body but also in the subtle body, between two incarnations. Personal attributes belong to the jiva and are manifested through subtle and gross body. They do not depend on the gross body though.

3.8. Doctrine of karma leads to passivity and nihilism.
Resignation and submission to karma is wrong. Jiva should "make the best out of a bad bargain", or "play with the cards in one's hand" regardless of if he knows why he suffers or not (though it may help him to understand his position). Those who know should mercifully help him spiritually (lack of compassion is also an ignorance). This is not interfering with his karma but a part of a higher plan.

People do not react to bad karma in an unified manner, the negative reaction (revenge) is due to ignorance. They will sooner or later "wake up" after being punished many times and try to get out of the "vicious circle" of karma. Such people are receptors of God's mercy and turn to Him. Only a few percent of people are 'incorrigible criminals' - those with demoniac nature (atheists and God-haters).

Suicide is not a way out but brings severe karmic punishments. Fasting to death is the only karma-free suicide but not the way to liberation - this is the taking shelter in God (saranam).

3.9. Reincarnation means a growth/conservation of evil.
Evil (adharma) grows with time in each yuga and Kali-yuga is the worst in this regard. But there are also other factors in play: ajnata-sukrti (unknowingly performed pious acts related to God and His servants), saintly people working against it in various ways (they have an important role in enabling others to do ajnata-sukrti), God's plan (includes everything; the special plan in this Kali-yuga is the sankirtana movement).

3.10. Reincarnation means an endless cycle of punishments.
Dharma is the criteria if the next person will be punished or not. There are persons entrusted with the dispensation of law - ksatriyas (on earth level), devas (on cosmic level) and ultimately God. Thus a policeman killing a criminal does not get bad karma, neither judge etc. provided they acted according to dharma, God's law. Here we face a problem of man-made laws which often do not correspond with dharma.

Revenge is against dharma and brings bad karma.

Right understanding of reincarnation does not lead to an idea that "Hitler, Stalin etc. did the right thing by murdering so many people because it was their karma anyway".

Nonviolence (ahimsa) is generally in harmony with dharma, animal killing is adharma (butchers are not forced to kill, not being the authorized dispensers of karma). But absolute ahimsa under any circumstances is also against dharma - ksatriyas have to oppose the growth of adharma.

3.11. Reincarnation has no definite beginning. Wherefrom the karma needed for the first incarnation came?

The first incarnation is caused by a misuse of one's free will by voluntary leaving the Lord. Thus one enters the material world where Maya devi arranges for the first body (that of Brahma). The context is seen in the Vedic Planetarium.

3.12. Reincarnation affects negatively morality.
This could be true only if it is misunderstood as the only factor to consider. But there are also dharma which defines what is right and wrong and the law of karma based on it.

Mechanical understanding of karma as unchangeable fate is wrong - there is a parallel action of karma and free will at any moment and moreover spiritual grace can change any karma (miraculous cures etc.)

Claim of "amorality proposed by Krishna in the BG" is a complete misunderstanding. Krishna restores dharma by removing the demons - this is clear from the context of the Mahabharata.

Reality of reincarnation supports responsibility in life (by understanding that sins lead to suffering, rejection of escapism, hedonism and powermongering which are outgrowths from the one-life paradigm gotten rid of God), sense of continuity and unflinching position while facing negative conditions (present situation is a result of one's own actions), empowerment (by understanding interaction of karma and free will) and respect for all life (living beings including those in subhuman forms are seen as children of God). This is often not seen in traditions with the linear paradigm.

3.13. Demons produce reincarnation proofs to contradict Christianity.
No doubt there are demoniac forces trying to suppress dharma in genuine religious teachings. But Vedic scriptures have three checks to prevent this: guru (spiritual master), sastra (revealed scripture) and sadhu (spiritual practitioner) must be in accord. Any deviation is easily exposed.

We also see that realizations of advanced sadhus from various spiritual traditions are remarkably similar. They develop similar qualities like humility, purity, self-control etc. in exact opposition to the demoniac nature. If the Vedic sages would also be demons or under demoniac influence, they would not cast demons out as Jesus did (Matthew 12:24-28) by their spiritual power and the power of the holy name of Lord. This and other things connected with the Lord effectively repel negative beings.

4. Arguments from scripture
Scripture means the Bible here. To understand the position of the Bible in comparison to the Vedic scriptures we can use several criteria.

One is the three guna criteria used in Tattva-sandarbha to classify Vedic scriptures. Roughly it could be called a rajasika sastra although there are also parts of more sattvic and tamasic nature. Regarding sambandha-abhidheya-prayojana criteria, prayojana tattva (the goal, or jiva's relationship with God in His abode and the activity in liberated state) is conspicuous by its absence. As for karma-jnana-bhakti marga criteria, we see prevalent karma, some jnana, and bhakti mainly in Gospels and Song of Solomon. Contents generally pertain to upadharma (ethics preliminary to dharma) and religious rules (dharma).

5. Conclusion
We have tried to present as many objections to reincarnation as possible. If we are supplied with others, they will be added here. Thank you for your cooperation.

Sayon Kanti Kar

-----------------------------------------

saadhaka Saarthee Paartha!
There are six enemies. Right. Who says to let them to overpower us and torture
us? Who is responsible for being tortured by them? ONLY we. If we don't let the
enemy attack on us (by indulging in attachment and avarice first, other enemies
follow these two and all six together are on us), they can NEVER overpower us.
These are not mere words, this is from experience in first person.
Send more queries to know the way out.
I personally appreciate your straightforwardness.
So be it.
Humbly,
Saadhaka.

-------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Dear Gee Waman,

I would like to examine a couple of points you made

'6. Yes, The genetic material of MY BODY, that is, the 46 chromosomes,
about 30000 genes and the DNA molecules on them, existed in the bodies
of several ancestors of my father and several ancestors of my mother.
Thus my genetic material actually existed in the past, partly in the
bodies of my ancestors. This fact was rightly conceived by the Great
Thinkers of the Past and they propagated the theory of rebirth,
reincarnation, permanent existence of Atma and Parmatma.'

These are your interpretation of what the great thinkers of the past
conceived. Why cannot it be more literal? In the thread on soul I wrote
about the book 'Yesterdays children', the upshot was that the children
this lady remembered in a past life were still alive (50 years on),
(remember investigative journalists have a nose for a con ), the sons
from her past life confirmed all the details as remembered by her, the
eldest regarded this lady at some soul level as his mother, as
remembered things only he and his mother knew about, the other 'son',
confirmed the details but could not believe she was the reincarnate of
his mother, "Because his religion forbade it".
There is the story of a man who remembered being killed in a bomber
during ww2, he remembered all details of the squadron, aircraft
call-sign, how his aircraft blew up , who his parents were, where he
lived and the details of the house he grew up in, (all confirmed.) Note
a reporter commented to the investigator, that should convince the
skeptics, the reply was a true sceptic cannot ever be convinced!
You may find this site interesting reading:
http://www.facts-are-facts.com/news/sne-26705-pastlife.ihtml.
The point is there was no chance of genetic memory being past on in
these cases, remember people do remember past lives, like being killed,
or execute, or being a celibate, again no genetic memory here. Genes
belong to nature the Soul belongs to the Eternal.

Now consider this wrt to point 6 and 9, Stanislav Grof MD:
And if somebody in our culture has a spiritual experience | of the kind
that inspired every' major religion in the world, an average minister
will very likely send him or her to a psychiatrist. It has happened on
many occasions that people who had been brought to psychiatric
facilities because of intense spiritual expe­riences were hospitalized,
subjected to tranquilizing medication or even shock treatments, and
received psycho pathological diagnostic labels that stigmatized them for
the rest of their lives.
In visionary states, the experiences of other realities or of new
perspectives on our everyday reality are so convincing and compelling
that the individuals who have had them have no other choice than to
incorporate them into their worldview. It is thus systematic
experiential exposure to non ordinary states of consciousness, on the
one side, and the absence thereof, on the other that sets the
technological societies and pre-industrial cultures ideologically so far
apart. I have not yet met a single individual who has had a deep
experience of the transcendental realms and continues to subscribe to
the worldview of Western materialistic science. This development is
quite independent of the level of intelligence, type and degree of
education, and professional credentials of the individuals involved.
( Stan Grof's credential among others are a former Chief of Psychiatric
Research at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, author of over 90
professional articles, and six books).

'9. The Great Thinkers of the Past have correctly realised these facts
and they have written down in Holy Books. The present knowledge of
Science is based on verified and confirmed facts. The conclusions can be
verified at all times, day or night, any day of the month, and any month
of the year, by individuals of any gender, of any age, while the
language of religious scriptures could be understood only by those who
have attained realisation. Thus the religious concepts remained as
abstract…unpredictable and unverifiable in nature, while the
scientific concepts are practical, predictable and verifiable.'

Juxtaposing your statement 9 and the comments of Stan Grof, what you are
trying to do is ram highly spiritual insights into gross science. You
also contradict yourself, " ....while the language of religious
scriptures could be understood only by those who have attained
realisation. Thus the religious concepts remained as
abstract…unpredictable and unverifiable in nature, while the
scientific concepts are practical, predictable and verifiable.'. OK for
one, Swamiji would have understood science I am sure, but did he imply
that there is no such as reincarnation?

Finally at the quantum level outcome is a probability, not a predictability.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike

-------------------------------------------------------
Shri Gee Waman,
You may not aware of the numerous experiments being
conducted,over the years, in Reputed Universities of the US,Stanford for
example, and Kirov University in the USSR and many other Universities on the
research that they have conducted on this subject "Life after Life" or "Life
after Death" or what have you...
An interesting experiment witnessed by scientists and
filmed for posterity,is worth mentioning here...
The University had requested to send all severely ill
patients...about to die,to the University for Scientific investigations...
After many unsuccessful attempts one
about-to-die,patient was placed in a specially constructed room with 1 ft. thick
Lead lining...and was filmed with the most modern cinematic camera,and in an
atmosphere between two powerful Magnets creating a powerful Magnetic field in
the entire room...and every moment was captured from a few minutes before death
and till a few minutes after death...
As I understand every one saw with awe,that at the
moment of death, a pale blue coloured silhoutte of the body just simply arose
from the body and floated above and "out of the room"...right through the 1 foot
thick Lead wall...into 'thin air',so to say...all to the greatest astonishment
of the scientists from all over the world assembled there... ! !
The ancient Hindus,like all the ancient
civilisations,the Stonehenge people,the Babylonians,the Red Indians,the Maoris
the Egyptians,the Chinese and many others ancient civilisations
knew and wrote about this trans-migration of the soul...albeit in allegorical
styles...and the Hindus kept this knowledge restricted to a chosen few...The
Buddhist and Jain literatures/paintings/carvings et al., only prove this
point...
Only...now,this was "filmed" and served as proof to
all non-believers/atheists/
agnostics etc., among the scientists and at large...
One could gather more info on this and allied
experiments by accessing past issues of the prestigious journals like
Science,Nature etc...
With best wishes,
Yogesh Lajmi.

Dear Sir, I have been reading about the soul and reincarnation. But do we feel
that the human birthisso precious. Are we really making use of our human
qualities? are animals not better than us.They do not have the six enemies from
which we are suffering. Kama krodha lobha moha mada Matsyara. Out or these sex
the animals are saparingly getting yieldded. But awhat abour we? everyday we
suffer from bad enemies and always think of birth anddeath for which we are
sometmes are afraid of. The only sonsoling factor for us is that our Atma will
not die and the body is made of panchbhootas. Pl clarify my doubt re. the
present birth of human being. Are they reallt feeing prould of their Janma?
Thanks one reader JAYASHREE

-------------------------------------------------

If "Aatma" (Spirit, Soul, Self) is such a thing that can leave one body and
enter another then Paramatma (God, Supreme Soul) is also the same. those who
say that My "aatma" or their "aatma" are not accepting Gita 2/24. Taht which
is eternal, all pervasive, omnipresent, unchanging, where will it go and from
where will it come? Out of ignorance we call it it's birth. What can be
greater ignorance of "aatma" that this? the body alone is born and the body
alone dies. The aatma is neither born nor dies. if aatma is born and dies,
then paramatma (supreme soul) too is born and dies.

yadi aatmaa koee aisee cheej hai jo ek shareer chhodakar doosare shareeramen
aa-jaa sakatee hai to fir paramaatmaa bhee useeke jaisaa huaa. jo bhee kahate
hain ki .meree aatmaa' yaa 'usaakee aatmaa' ve geetaa adhyaay 2 shloka 24 ko
asveekaar karate hain. jo nitya ho, sarvagat ho, sthaanu ho tathaa achal ho vah
kaise kaheense jaayegaa aur kaise kaheense aayegaa? ajanmekaa janm maan rahe
hain. isase adhik aatmaakee naasamajhee aur kyaa hogee? shareer janmate hain aur
shareer hee marate hain. aatmaa n janmatee hai aur n maratee hai. aatmaa janme
aur mare to fir paramaatmaa bhee janmegaa aur maregaaa.
astu.
savinay,
saadhaka.

----------------------------------------------------------

The Bible refers to Soul Transmigration. John the Baptist is Elijah‘Lo I will
send you Elijah the prophet, Before the day of the Lord comes, the great and
terrible day. (Malachi 3:24).‘And if you are willing to accept it, he (John
the Baptist) is Elijah, the one who is to come. Whoever has ears, ought to
hear.”(Matthew11:14-15).

Denis khan
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sir, I have been reading about the soul and reincarnation. But do we feel
that the human birthisso precious. Are we really making use of our human
qualities? are animals not better than us.They do not have the six enemies from
which we are suffering. Kama krodha lobha moha mada Matsyara. Out or these sex
the animals are saparingly getting yieldded. But awhat abour we? everyday we
suffer from bad enemies and always think of birth anddeath for which we are
sometmes are afraid of. The only sonsoling factor for us is that our Atma will
not die and the body is made of panchbhootas. Pl clarify my doubt re. the
present birth of human being. Are they reallt feeing prould of their Janma?
Thanks one reader JAYASHREE

sarathy partha
------------------------------------------------------
Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Mike…Namaskar.

With due respect to all, I humbly express my thoughts here...

1. Great thinkers of the Past (GTPs) had a keen sense of obervation and
experience of Nature around. They thought deeply, pondered over and had
realised the mysteries of Nature. They explained, to the best of their
abilities, knowledge and intuition, the secrets of Nature. The outcome of their
deep thinking has been rightly and elaborately described in Books of knowledge
such as Geetaji, Vedas and Upanishadas etc. This happened in every pocket of
civilisations on this Planet Earth.

2. Since the existence of life forms on this Planet Earth, as a matter of
fact, in this Universe, Vishwa, till the present times, there is a continuous
cyclic sequence of events…birth and death of life forms.

3. The life forms did not remain fixed in numbers, but continuously and
decisively multiplied..each with a SOUL, because no Body can be born without a
Divine Life Force…Chetana, the genetic material. During all these millions of
Earth Years, each species of plant, insect and animal have evolved and the
evolution has taken place in reality and strictly according to the laws of
Science, though these laws were not known to humans for the past several
thousand years.

4. The concepts of God, Ishwar, Parmatma, atma etc were realised only when
humans were mature in thoughts…since, not earlier than, say 10000 Earth Years,
while the life on this Planet Earth is successfully existing since 3.5 billions
of Earth Years. It is likely that Life existed even before this, somewhere in
the Universe.

5. The Nature has taken all possible measures for the LIFE on this planet, all
species of life forms….insects, animals and plants…should exist comfortably
and multiply decisively. That is why a single female produces many many eggs and
a single male produces millions of sperms in each ejaculation during their
reproductive ages. That is why each tree produces many many fruits every year
and, by and large, each fruit contains many many seeds. Each of the sperm, egg
and seed contains the genetic material, in which all the characteristics of each
species are codified. After fertilisation, the codified messages are
de-codified. I call the beginning of the decodification process as the Birth of
a Life Form.

6. Yes, The genetic material of MY BODY, that is, the 46 chromosomes, about
30000 genes and the DNA molecules on them, existed in the bodies of several
ancestors of my father and several ancestors of my mother. Thus my genetic
material actually existed in the past, partly in the bodies of my ancestors.
This fact was rightly conceived by the Great Thinkers of the Past and they
propogated the theory of rebirth, reincarnation, permanent existence of Atma and
Parmatma.

7. I can say with confidence that I have lived on this Planet Earth in the
past. My genetic material, my Atma….in parts..have assumed several Sharirs and
the same is going to exist in many many future generations till this Planet
Earth and the environment on this Planet Earth can sustain life.

8. Whenever any life form ceases to exist… stops functioning… the body
cells…the genetic material… decompose and is converted into atoms of carbon,
hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus etc. These elemental atoms are
existing on Earth since its formation and even before the earth was born,
somewhere in the Universe…Vishwa. These atoms are not created and are not
going to be destroyed because the Universe is eternal.

9. The Great Thinkers of the Past have correctly realised these facts and
they have written down in Holy Books. The present knowledge of Science is based
on verified and confirmed facts. The conclusions can be verified at all times,
day or night, any day of the month, and any month of the year, by individuals of
any gender, of any age, while the language of religious scriptures could be
understood only by those who have attained realisation. Thus the religious
concepts remained as abstract…unpredictable and unverifiable in nature…while
the scientific concepts are practical, predictable and verifiable.

10. Science have removed many abstract religious concepts. Religions believed
that the Earth is flat and is resting on the head of Sheshnaga. Present
inquisitive human will ask…well, the Earth is supported by sheshnaga, but
where the sheshanaga is resting? Now everybody accepts that the Earth is
revolving around the sun and remains in the orbit because of the Sun-Earth
gravitational force and the revolving speed of the Earth. The gravitional
attractive force between the celestial masses would have brought them in a
unique place in the Universe. But it has not happened that way because the whole
Universe is dynamic…every object is moving with a mad speed and revolving
around some point.

11. This Vishwa is really beyond the limits of human brain….The human brain
will never realise all the secrets of this Great Creation.
……Gee Waman

-----------------------------------------------------

i have not read SATARTHAORAKASH. .arya samaj pravartak swami dayanand
saraswati who brought so much of change in the hindu concept about its
misunderstaning of the dharm as such and did so much of social service
to the society .from whatever i know or understand about dharm,'
whatever vidya sagar garg has written appealed to me most.jai shri
krishna

Chaman Nigam
----------------------------------------------------------

From Satyarth Prakash Chapter 9

Q. Do the souls of men go into bodies of animals and vice versa; and do souls of
men go into souls of women and vice versa?
195
A.~ Yes, they do. When sin predominates over virtue in a man, his soul goes into
the bodies of lower animals and the like when virtue predominates over sin in a
soul, it is born as a good and learned person. When sin and virtue are equal,
the soul is born as an ordinary man. Sin and virtue being of three different
grades - superior, medium, and inferior - men can be divided into three classes
according as they are possessed of superior, medium and
PAGE 300
inferior kind of material (bodies, bodily powers, mental capacities and talents,
etc.). When sin preponderates over virtue, the soul suffers the consequences of
its sin in the bodies of lower animals and the like, till its sins and virtues
are equalized when it is invested with a human body. Similarly, when it has
enjoyed the excess of virtue over sin, it is born as an ordinary man.
The separation of the soul from the body is called death, whist its union with
the body is called birth. When the soul leaves the body, it lives in the
atmosphere (yama), because it is said in the Veda, "Yama,is another name for
air." Thereafter the Great Judge - God - embodies that soul according to the
nature of its deeds done in the previous life. Guided by God it enters the body
of some living creature with air, water, food, drink or through any one of the
openings of the body.
Having entered it, it gradually reaches the reproductive element, the thereby
establishes itself in the womb, and is thus invested with a body and eventually
born. It is clothed with a male or a female body, just as it merits a male or a
female one; whilst a hermaphrodite is formed by the union of the male and the
female reproductive elements in equal proportions at the same time of
conception.
The soul is continually chained down to this wheel of births and deaths till by
the practice of the highest virtue and complete absorption into Divine
contemplation and the acquisition of the highest knowledge it obtains
Emancipation. By the practice of deeds of the highest virtue, etc., it is born
as a good and great personage among men; and being freed from births and deaths
and the consequent pain and suffering, it enjoys perfect bliss in Emancipation
till the end of the Grand-Dissolution.

Vidya Sagar Garg
---------------------------------------------
fellow learners,

FIRST THERE IS NOTHING LIKE HINDUISM. SHOW ME FROM THE FOUR VEDAS OR THE PAMCAMA
VEDA, MAHAABHAARATA, ANY OTHER UPANISHAT INCLUDING BHAGAVAD GITA, SHOW ME FROM
ANY OF THESE PRAMANAS THE WORD HINDU. CONTINUING THE USE OF HINDU TO DESCRIBE
OUR CULTURE IS AN INSULT AND SHOWS THAT WE ARE STILL SLAVES. WE ARE DHARMIKS WE
DO NOT HAVE A RELIGION. OURS IS DHARMA - SANATANA DHARMA. PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT
USE HINDUISM OR HINDU WE ARE BHAARATEEYA AND dHAARMIKA.

Reincarnation is for Atma and not body. human body is not the ultimate stage in
evolution. It is an intermediate state. Reincarnation of body is meaningless and
nobody talks about it. The Atma in one body (praakritic) discards it once it
finds it functionless and inadequate for its learning. Body is the means of
learning for Atma. Atma uses body for its sojourn on the road to perfection.
Body is the Rathaa (chariot). please refer to the Slokas 3.3, 4, 5 of
Kathopanishat. By a beautiful metaphor the upanishat karta details the role of
the body, its sensory organs, Mana and buddhi in Atma prasthaana.

Suppose (it happens so often) that the body charioYou do not mind taking even a
state road transport bust or the E class Merceds is damaged beyond repair half
way to the destination. What would you do? Do you wait for another as luxurious
vehicle as you were driving in or take the fist vehicle that comes along the
road to reach your destination, even if it is a poorly maintained state
transport bus.

Hence there is no contradiction to biological evolution; Darwin &co are not
contradicted. It is not the human body that gets transformed into an ape. It is
Atma that has no species bar that enters into a new body.

Finally, my friend Re incarnation is not a"HINDU" belief. It is widely believed
thrut he humanity that soul is transplanted. Some people like Pythagoras
postulated that human souls become humans, dogs become dogs again and so on.
That is not so in Indian context. The Christian teacher Origen of Alexandria in
his "First Principles" wrote vividly on Soul (psukhe), its original state of
proximity to the Supreme Being and their gradual separation and their effort to
regain the original position. Re incarnation is a must is his conclusion and
Reincarnation is not a homomorphism. Well, if you are curious we can go on an
excursion into reincarnation.

God Bless You
krishna .
------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

An interesting view of reincarnation:

REINCARNATION IN HINDUISM
Scaria THURUTHIYIL

The fear that in place of the desired immortality in the next world (of
the Fathers), there will be renewed death,27 and as a consequence the
turning to performing many rites, like Agnihotra, the Visuvant, the
Naciketas fire, the piling of the fire, the study of the Veda, etc.,
which are to save them from suffering 'repeated deaths'.28 The repeated
death refers to death in the next world, not in this: it is applied to
the Fathers (Satapata Brahmana, 12. 9.3.12), and from those who are born
after death to immortality are distinguished those who are born to die
again (Satapata Brahmana, iO. 4.3.iO). The idea that death is a birth (a
passage to3 in the next world is not at all rare and the conception that
death might there be repeated is a very natural one.29 But the idea of
rebirth (transmigration) on the earth was the innovation of the Upanishads.
Juxtapose this with Vaasishtha:
Chapter 2 135
374, 375. Even so, within every (world) many and diverse other (worlds)
rise, mutually unseen. All of them do not at all see each other even a
little, like inert matter in the same heap and like grains dropping down
(from a granary).
376. (These worlds are) like the dream-objects of persons sleeping at
the same time, greatly active, touched (or considered) alongside and
non-existent to one another.
377. Unseen by one another and mutually not experienced, even extensive
(worlds) are born like the dream-illusions of the soldiers of an army.
[Each soldier may imagine a world in his dream and such worlds are not
experienced reciprocally.]
378. As the city of fancy is true with reference to that which is
imagined, whether possessed of body or not, and not a little with
reference to another, (these worlds are not experienced mutually).

Now there are many who remember past lives, but take it one step further
the Trikala Jnani, knows the past present and future, to know the
future, it seems to already exist.

Also Vaasishtha and some modern physicist, (I remember an article I read
by an eminent British physicist), do not believe time is real.

I have given this a great amount of thought over the years, a little
bell rang in my thinking when working with the lissajous in my past
employment, w.r.t. multiple universes refer to 374,375 above.

Now think of this; a necklace of pearls, each one represents an apparent
reality of existence, the thread is the Self, not suspended in time, but
in divine reality, but each pearl is not seen by the others, and the
Self is only aware of the existence IT is entangled with. By the way
multiple universe concepts is ascending in scientific circles. The
physicist I speak of considers that every moment of your life exist,
always, if so it is not in the past, he admitted this concept pushed his
imagination to the limits.

I believe the simple idea of past and future lives is somewhat
allegorical, and has been built on, which is fine, but I find I tend to
look deep into things, and as I do not follow any religion,I have no dogma.

Om ... Shant ...

Mike.

----------------------------------------------------------
In my second post on this subject,I feel peoples' diet is also responsible for
their reincarnation about next birth.A hindu scripture says,jaisa
ann(food),vaisa tann(body) and naturally vaisa mann(mind).The mind ultimately
evolves 'atma'.A non-veg body will generally be composed of constituents from
animal world and their may be general affinity in such bodies to join chips of
their own stone.Vegetarians may fall in some relevant group,but all subject to
effect of thought and physical karmas.Apprehensions may also affect as the lord
reveals in the Holy Bhagvada Gita that his devoutees can avail the kind of birth
they yearn at the time of departure.
subhashtewari

--------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaskar.

Every Lifeform (Sajeeva...means.... with Jeeva) on this Planet Earth has
trillions of cells.

Every cell contains a nucleus which has a characteristc genetic material That is
‘Aanuvamshik Tatwa’

No Life form (Sajeeva) can be born without this genetic materil (which can be
called as Jeeva). I was born, rather my Sharir was born with the combination of
genetic material from many ancestors of my father and many ancestors of my
mother. They received this genetic material from their parents and so on.

The genetic material (Jeeva) is being passed on from parent generation to the
next generation of the particular species of a life form. Me and my wife
produced children from the genetic material received from several of our
ancestors.

Thus it has passed on from a parent Shareer to a child Shareer for the past
billions of Earth Years. (Every Planet has a different year).
Thus it is this genetic material which takes birth in the form of Sharir. The
genetic material passes on to the Sharir of next generation from the male-female
sharirs of previous generation.
This is re-incarnation or re-birth of the genetic material. Thus a human is born
as another human and not any other animal. An animal is re-born as an animal of
the same species or similar species. A Mule is a cross breed of horse and
donkey. The animal called Cama is a cross breed of Camel and Llama.
Scientists have carried out fertilisation of male sperms and female eggs in
petri dishes, transferred the fertilised egg in the womb of the female, and a
crossed breed animal is born.
The animal of male lion and female tiger is called Liger and it actually exists.
The animal of male tiger and female lion is called tilion and it actually
exists.

Genetic Material is not created by anybody and it passes on to the next
generation without destruction. (it is simply passed on to the next generation,
from parents to children)

This process is going on for the past several billion generations and it is
going to be passed on to the several billion next generations till this Planet
Earth can sustain life.

The genetic material of humans of white, black, brown or yellow humans is
basically the same, but there are slight differences amongst every individual.
Thus the genetic material of humans, animals, trees etc can be called Parmatma
and the genetic material of each individual can be called Soul or Atma.

.....Gee Waman

------------------------------------------

hindu mythology is full of stories of re-birth sometimes in other
yonis also .all the religions preach for good karmas and they say
good karmas yeild good results and bad karmas give bad results .some
times any type of suffering is attributed to the bad karmas of
previous birth ..in mahabharat bhishma pitamaha is said to have the
shir saiyya episode due to his 76th purva janm where he had teased
some creature like a worm with some pointed thing .this is all belief
related issue . jai shri krishna
Chaman nigam
------------------------------------------

Once we have attained birth as humans, the highest of all living forms and the
only one with the capacity for vivek or discrimination between good or bad, we
are uniquely placed to go to the next level that is liberation or moksha. That
means that we can give up the painful and recurring cycle of birth and death and
become one with the Parmatma, which is the true and only reason for our birth.
However those who are entangled with worldly pleasures and die with unfulfilled
desires return to earth again and again. Though it is rare for a human being to
reincarnate as a lower life form it is by no means impossible as a punishment
for their bad karmas. Our scriptures fully support this.
Hari Shanker Deo

------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Incarnation is meant for noble souls. Rebirth is for ordinary souls carrying
bundles of Vasanas and Karmas. In Vivekachudamani, there is answer for this. Say
a person desires only in Sex, food and drinks, enjoyment, he is given birth as a
Pig so that he can indulge in high sexual pleasures, tongue will be so that
anything including human waste tastes nice. Yogi Bharatheswarar was as Deer then
as Jada Barath in Srimath Bagavath. In Visnupuran, a husband who so affectionate
to his wife until death was born as a horse to serve his sick wife as a
conveyance. Vaali in Srimath Ramayan was born as Jaara in Dwaperyug. The Dobbe
(Washer man) who passed unnecessary comment on Mother Seetha was a Rasagan who
was killed by Sri Krishana. Craving for sugar until death- be an ant. Do all
cunning acts be a fox.
B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------------------------
Runanubhandha rupena pasu patni sutalaya .... Gita

in the form of debt (from previous life), the wife, son and animal come in to
our life. This means that the debt of previous lives is paid out to you by
those (having the debt) by becoming your wife, son or animal.

regards,

Dr. ShivMallik

-----------------------------------------------------
Sir,
I depend upon comforting answers instead of seeing 'as it is'. I do not want to
take the jerk, which the thought(that I may be reborn as an animal, or I may be
punished and so on) is giving-I am under the impression as if a COMFORTING
answer exists. Thought projects lack and then seeks.
Seeing this takes you to the Original ground, where birth and death are seen as
a unitary process.
One sees what lies beyond the answers.
Y V Chawla
------------------------------------------------------

Rebirth ... possibilities ...

Yonimanye prapadyante shareerattvaaya dehinah |
SthaNumanye'nusamyanti yathaa karma yathaa shrutam ||

After death ...

One may attain a womb to re-manifest ... the womb that avails itself ... the
womb that one can reach ...

Or, one may just get dispersed back into the elements of nature ... matter
(soil, water, air), energy (fire), and space ...

... as one believes ... and, as one can ...

Fear of de-evolution ...

I consider this with a serious exception. The observation hints a notion that
man is superior to the rest! How and why?

If it meant to express a deterioration of quality of existence ... that is what
we ever achieve in our living my dear friend ... de-evolution ... loosing our
sense of joy ... collecting notions of pain and misery. Therefore, I would alert
you against the de-evolution that is happening now - de-evolution is certain as
of now! No use of worrying about potential deterioration after death as (1)
anything including the feared de-evolution cannot be established there; and (2)
even if one fathoms anything after death, one has absolutely no hold on the same
to modify the outcome!

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

------------------------------------------------------
Dear Dharan Jit Singh,

Though Sanatan Dharma mentions about some 42 lakhs of Yonis which accordingly
means a continual evolution of soul takes place, man considered to be at the top
of evolution. The next rise in evolution ladder is his aim to be God himself!!
Personally, I am not satisfied with this theory!

I believe and feel so with logical reasoning that whatever we, (Men or, even
animals, birds, insects, micro-organisms even) like to be or like to achieve
sooner or later we are able to get to it. Leaving Reincarnation aside, even in
this very life whatever in day to day life we plan to do with cent percent
confidence, mostly we are able to get it or arrive at the destination. Meaning,
whatever we wholeheartedly want to be say another species with reference to your
subject question, we are surely able to become that very specie. Suppose you
want to be a Parrot, yes you shall become!!! The only requirement for this is
that your wish should be 100%!!! This is tested when you take your last breath
in this life or, say at the time of leaving this body, you continue to have that
wish of becoming a Parrot!!

This certified by Lord Krishna in Chapter 8 Verse 6. There is no mention of
de-evolution by Lord Krishna

YAM YAM VAPI SAMRANM BHAWAN, TEJTENTE KLAVARM!
TAM TAM EYATI KIOTEYE, SADATATH BHAV BHAVITA!!

Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

------------------------------------------------------

All living beings and non-living beings are the different manifestations of God,
as per the Upanishads and Gita. And, hence all are nothing but the same One.
Vapour rises from the Sea under the impact of Sun light heat and form clouds
that vanishes with the rains as drops of water on the land and seas. We cannot
and need not try to identify which drop of water formed which part of which
cloud and then turned into which drop of water that fell where through rain. Who
gets what rebirth is immaterial. Neither Science nor Hinduism has been able to
draw one-to-one correspondence between one particular life birth with another
birth and still another birth. The concept of Rebirth in Hinduism is among the
most mis-understood concepts. There is no rebirth of the same soul, same mind,
the same intellect, the same body - all souls, all bodies, all minds and all
intellect are freshly constiuted at each birth based on inputs from parents.
Even if we still one to believe that there is a particular thing like Atman "X"
after being in the body of a humasn being till its death gets into another human
body or animal / insect/ bactrial body, there is no point in trying to identify
the sequence of bodies that 'X" gets into because with infinite number of bodies
at each point of time and over different points of time, there would be infinite
number of Atmans to get into numerous number of bodies, there could only be a
probability of Atman 'X" currently in human body getting into another human body
at a later date. But such probabistic models although consistent with Gita (you
have no control over cosequences of past into the future, so do your duty
without being attached with the cosequences of your duty actions), Hindus find
it difficult not to worry about rebirth.
Basudeb Sen

------------------------------------------------------

Dear Gita-Talk member,

I am learning for various sources, including some books
and on the internet that it rather easy for a life
with "bad karma" go into animal life. My belief
is strengthen by mother, who had a very good life (my
father was a Indian Railway Officer), she did lot of "puja"
all her life and she did couple of bad things. She, first got
pomonetion saying that "you screwed up your life and your
future is dark" some 10 years ago. Now, she is getting
"messages" and she is telling my sister "I don't want to
become an ant". I don't (nobody knows) where the karma-cut
off is. I know that "thinking karma" is hitting many people
hard (thinking karma means your physical/negative thinking) and
you need to throw it and pray in your thinking/
imagination, if want to "escape" from animal life.

Good luck! Bye!

Notesh Otes

----------------------------------------------------

I guess it is possible.When our performed and thought karmas get polluted and
lose the inborn nature of our human being they assume the distorted
configuration of some other specy which may be lower in rank and capacity.Our
atma may then have a corrupted transformation and thus a reincarnation in form
of another specy.
subhashtewari

------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Dharanjitji, Please read previous Gita Talk messages on this topic and kindly
briefly share your understanding based on these messages for the benefit of the
group.

On Birth, Reincarnation, Karmic Laws, and Religion
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/4111

Reincarnation according to Gita
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/673

Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-----------------------------------------------

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