Monday, February 28, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: Are we Giving Importance to what we know to be TRUE? Your Insights Please !

 

Shree Hari Ram Ram

In recent "SADHAKA DAILY MESSAGES" Swamiji has addressed giving importance to
what we know to be TRUE....
Are we utilizing what we know to be true? Have we understood the term
"perishable" (naashvaan). Do we know ourselves as imperishable? Do we know that
the imperishable cannot be gratified by the perishable?
Are we getting trapped? Are we being stupid? Are we cheating ourselves? Do we
know / understand that it is only on realizing the Eternal, Imperishable
Paramatma that we will be satisfied?

Your INSIGHTS please !!!
Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Sir,
Everything is perishable. Seeing this, recognising this automatically connects us to imperishableness.
Imperishable is not like perishable. It is imperishableness. No idea as to good-bad can be formed in relation to imperishableness.
Mind can not attain it as mind is bound by the law of contrast. When it sees that it is helpless in coming out of contrast, it is relieved.Imperishableness is recognised.
Y V Chawla

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Hari Om

The message of Notesh Otes is bit harsh, not only on this Divine Forum but also on teachings of Shrimad Bhagwad Gita. To my belief, a parrot like reader of Gita is infinite times better than the non reader of Gita.

Reading Bhagwad Gita is not physical at all ! A sadhak ( striver/ reader of Gita as sadhana included ..) is never body ..never manifest ...He is always unmanifest ! In fact, those who do not read Gita or accept its teachings are in Delhi's Jantar Mantar ..certainly not those who read it, study it and experience its eternal teachings. Reading Gita, in fact, removes doubts, confusions and conflicts, ...there is no question of it causing conflicts or confusions..!! Rather, the connection with world and faulty acceptance etc cause conflicts and confusions ..but never Shrimad Bhagvad Gita...in whichever way you read it !

Three themes have been insisted upon 1 Consciousness 2 Devotion 3
Transcendence, with a claim that Gita teaches those themes ! At the outset, let me state that the 'consciuosness' is not a part of 'any process' ! If at all it is of some spiritual value, it is name of ' IS-NESS' ..but to denote that there are better terms/words like 'Existence' (satta-matra) BHAAV (opposite of ABHAAV) / IS-NESS/ SAT/ imperishable / permanent /soul etc are employed in Gita...! Only once in Gita , the word 'consciousness'. (chetana) has been used ... to merely denote it as a part/modification of inert/insentient Prakruti ..Read BG 13: 6 ...Chetana !! That is all Gita talks about the word 'Consciousness' !!!

Transcendence..yes you must ! But to transcend what? Actually to transcend 'thoughts' / mind . Now as per Gita what you call 'consciousness' is part of Prakruti ...and you must 'transcend' Prakruti ( Read Gita : 14:19...Gunebhyasya paramvetti; 15:18- I am beyond Nature) and hence you must transcend 'consciousness' (chetana)/ mind/thoughts as they are part/modification of Prakruti...!! That is one meaning given by Gita. Non Gita readers may use this word 'consciousness' to denote existence/is-ness ( Present) / soul/ Self BUT then in that case it is not "Process" ...it is the GOAL ...it is the 'realization itself' of the same .. It is 'smriti' (18:73 )..rememembering a forgotten existing Truth...changeless truth...AS IT IS Truth ! You can't link then the 'consciousness' with 'thoughts' ! Of course, the IS-NESS / MERE EXISTENCE is totally different than AWARENESS !! The most of so called pundits of 'Consciousness' actually end up understanding it as AWARENESS ...and Gita precisely calls this AWARENESS as CHETANA..inert/insentient ..a modification of Prakruti !!! When you are not 'aware' then also you are Prakruti-stha (situate in Prakruti) only ..example ..deep sleep state, faint state...! Hence awareness (chetana) is 'relative' not absolute.

In any case, if you mean by 'consciousness' the soul / present/ self /mere existence / bhava/ Is-ness/ Sat etc , then also how can the question of 'raising/elevating its level' arise ? If it means soul / self etc then it is NOT subject to CHANGE. How can you change it by raising or lowering its level /characteristics/ quality/standard/ position etc ?

Now come to thoughts ! "Thoughts", being output of an inert machine called 'mind' , can ONLY be about the physical ( world / matter+activity) ! Thoughts can never be about the "Present", about what exists, about the absolute, about in your words 'non-physical' ( God/ higher power) ...NEVER ! Actually, mind (and hence thoughts) can either travel in "past" or in 'future' and both DO NOT EXIST !!! 'Naught' (asat) is mind (thoughts) and in 'naught' ONLY mind ALWAYS remains positioned ...Note this fact in your Gita diary for ever !! Mind can ONLY remain 'positioned' in Asat / Mithya / Inert/ non-existent zone ! Rightly so...because it is part of ASAT / Non-existent creator of it viz Prakruti. That is why you are taught in Gita to make mind equanimous ! Because on one hand it can not reach Paramatma ( Sat / Present / Is-ness/ What exists ) while on other hand it becomes disinterested in world (its subjects) because the Self has stopped giving any recognition/respect to the 'world' ('physical' in your words) ! Hence it falls into an optionless 'equanimous zone' ! That optionlessness of mind is called 'silencing of mind' ... thoghtlessness... desirelessness .. equanimity ...!! Hence mind / thoughts get silenced because there is no 'desire in Self' for the world ..and without the Self being interested, the mind receives no commands to loiter in world. That mind , thoughtless mind is Peace...Silence...!!

Hence Gita does not teach you " to raise the level of mind/thoughts or consciousness" as claimed by you ..rather it teaches you to transcend the very affinity with them, to renounce them, to disconnect with them ! In reality, the goal of every Yogi ( Sadhak) of Gita ..be it Karma Yogi or Jnana Yogi or Bhakti Yogi is : To reach to a 'thoughtless' /'mindless' state !!! SILENCE ( thoughtlessness / desirelessness/ doershipless ...) is the goal !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-
Namaste!

Thomas Merton:

When we are reduced to our last extreme, there is no further evasion. The choice is a terrible one. It is made in the heart of darkness, but with an intuition that is unbearable in its angelic clarity: when we who have been destroyed and seem to be in hell miraculously choose God! (NMI, 208).

Vaasishtha:

628. The mind makes an aeon (appear as) a moment within, and brings a moment to the nature of an aeon. Therefore, they consider the space-time order as dependent on that (mind).

629. (The mind) causes this error consisting of the mental object having destruction as its nature, which is only unreal and has the appearance of the real, as a dream (causes) another dream (within it).

Bhagavad- Gita 6/14:
Firm in the vow of complete chastity and fearless, keeping himself perfectly calm and with the mind held in restraint and fixed on Me, the vigilant Yogi should sit absorbed in Me.

Thomas Merton (a Trappist monk), describes the realization re the mind as described by Vaasishtha (628-629), and the shock of it, thus the only option is to turn to God. You notice he used the word intuition not knowledge.

Now on the other hand, such reduction to the last extreme is not a problem to the Yogi who follows the Guidance of Sri Krisna, you notice the word fearless , and the mind kept in restraint.

The mind is an illusionists, a trickster. True knowledge as apposed to perceived knowledge is not found in the mind, it is beyond the mind.

Sacred books, leaned discourse, great sat gurus, can only guide you on the journey to Truth. The 'Awareness', (true knowledge) is for the Self to find!

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
--------------------------------------------

Dear Holly Sadaks,
Namaskar!

Everybody speaks of Perishable and Nonperishable. According to Science Matter or Energy

can neither be created nor destroyed but, it would keep on changing its form only. Therefore, nothing can be perishable in the real sense. Everything is Nonperishable!!

The TRUTH seems to be that EVERYTHING (VASUDEVA SERVAM) is Nonperishable. Through the Maya of Vsudeva itself, Perishable is an eternal property of change existing and injected into the Nonperishable, keeping as ever US (ignorant) wondering while HISELF (Vsudeva) playing as Leela!!!

Otherwise PLEASE, may anybody tell me what was the basic idea of creating this Perishable lie (like ME, YOU or even infinite Universes) at all to begin with? In other words, why Lord (Vasudeva) created the trouble BY separating ATMA from PARMATMA and force it later through hectic exercises of various Yoga to merge back into PARMATMA???????????? Can my LORD be that idiot?? I do not think it so!!!

I am
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

-----------------------------------

Hari Om

Problem is that we 'know' but we do not 'accept' ! In Hindi : HAM JAANATE HAIN
LEKIN MAANATE NAHIN !

We know whatever rises, sets. We know who ever takes birth, dies! Who does not
know that? But still, if some near and dear dies, we grieve ! At the same time,
we do not grieve when in the evening the Sun sets. In the latter case,we 'know'
as well as 'accept' that the Sun sets in the evening. So we do not grieve. In
the former case, we 'know' one must die, but we do not 'accept' ..hence we
become sorrowful.

We 'know' smoking is bad, still we smoke. We 'know' telling lies is bad, still
we tell lies. We 'know' greed is bad, still we become swayed by greed. Why ? We
'know' but we do not 'accept' !

We know the nature of 'perishable' still we ' like to accept' the perishable to
be 'permanent' !! Oh...how much trouble we take to justify our insistence of
somehow seeing permanency in temporary ... including even bringing Vasudev
Sarvam truth ... What do we not do to see what we 'know' is perishable but we do
not 'accept' to be perishable ? Amazing ...!!!

Hence we must re-visit our 'acceptances' ( beliefs/assumptions / affinities/
connections) ....!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------------------------

Spiritual wisdom is that.....

All creation, perishable or not perishable, is for our happiness and
satisfaction......every little thing/situation/relationship in this world is for
our happiness.....We need to have that helicopter view to enjoy every moment....
Perishable is not to be worried about but understood in right perspective and to
be used as the invisible ladder for going up to that eternal happiness...

Understanding, experimenting, experiencing the wisdom of life is the doorway to
that bliss..... i.e. eternal is achieved only when our every moment is
established in that unconditional bright happiness (beyond happiness and
unhappiness)....

Remember, we all have that happy natural state (HNS) within us....... HNS is
that state of "Nothing" from where originate everything...
Strong understanding, awareness and experience, helps the ball rolling and
builds the conviction.....contemplation is the key...

Sushil Jain

--------------------------------------------------

until our last breath we ourselves and people around us feel and take us to
be present and never feel we are perishable and upto that time we are true
although wek now that ATMA is imperishable as said in sri Gitaji  nainam
chindanti shastrani----------------------

how then a person has to differentiate between perishable and non perishable .
what i feel from sri Gita ji karmanye dhivadhikaraste--------should be followed
for grihasth peapleÂ
jai shri krishna

Chaman nigam
----------------------------------------------

Dear Gita-group,

Yes, everyone is giving too much importance to physical/maya
truth. All of you have nothing else to go by. You all are reading
Bhagwat-Gita like a parrot and you are not applying the teachings
of Bhagwat Gita on yourself. Bhagwat-Gita talks about consciousness,
devotion and transcendence. These three words will teach you
how to "transform your thoughts from physical-thoughts to non-
physical-thoughts (God, higher power, source). This process will
begin to find your "absolute"/non-physical truth.

You will have to raise the level of mind/consciousness, prayers/devotion
and this process will be beyond-physical/transcendence. Reading
Gita is all physical and you may not find your answers this way,
instead, you will find coflicts, confusions and you may go into
junter-munter of New Delhi as many people (of your group) have
been going there and getting lost.

Good Luck! Bye!

Notesh Otes
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, it is a great invitation to share our insights into what
Moderators and Nagaji have shred with us from Swamiji's Treasure!
We need to clearly see that anything known or unknown, including body-mind-sense
complex given to us which we call "I", is perceived by senses and subsequently
conceived by mind with a name. All such conceived(thought-of) objects of this
world are in mind which functions in time-space fabric only, and hence are
perishable in time! Check this out by contemplating upon it.
Now, That which conceives objects through body-mind-senses cannot ITSELF be
conceived as another object of this world, and hence is free of time-space
fabric and therefore, is necessarily Imperishable! Even as IT cannot be known as
another object, it is our experience that IT knows through us and therefore, IT
IS, and hence is ITS own proof, being Self-evident Existence we feel we ARE!
Knowing this Truth as our true nature, the Real "I" that I am, is crown Jewel
of discrimination (Vivek Chudamani)!
So, Swamiji is asking us to stand as our true Self, the only Truth of perishable
World! This will free us from all attachment to "me" and its created world!
Know also that perishable objects exist only on Imperishable Existence, just as
waves on ocean, snake on rope, jewelries on Gold!
It is IMPERISHABLE which is GOD, appearing as forms of perishable objects!
And ... when we understand this by contemplating on it, we say "Vasudev Sarvam"!
Pratap Bhatt

---------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
We know we are perishable, and we know that we not the body, but we are Aham
Bhramasmi, we know we are trapped, we know we are stupid and cheating ourselves,
and we know we want to escape from these. But then why we are not getting out of
Maya. Strictly speaking 90% of us are aware. But what prevents us from raising
to higher level? Only very very few realized the importance. We know Geetha and
Sri Krishna and Swamiji and his teachings. But we cannot put in practice- Why?
Judge, Police, Ministers, Govt Servants know that taking bribe is crime. Person
to person cheating we know that we accumulate sins. But we do them without fear-
Why? Sadaks find out this obstacle then it is easy to liberate.
B.Sathyanarayan

-----------------------------------------------

What 'this specfic-named' person referred to by mistake as I do is what
(this) I am destined to do because of the properties/ Gunas imparted to this
particular stula-suksma-karan body mistakenlt referred to as I. This I will
cheat itself and ask why, will know that it is perishable within a very
short period of time and yet act as if that short period is infinite time,
This I is designed to act stupid, trapped in illusion even if this I comes
to know the Truth. All this is but natural and not amazing. That is one
Truth that this I also knows and need not bother. The real Truth is that
there is the Other I which is permanent, ceaseless, unperturbed by what the
perishable I's do and do not do. It is that Other I that this I is destined
to vanish in. Can the existence this other I be experienced even as this
perishable I functions in its own guna and illusion led existence. That is
the only important issue: going beyond the darkness of the perishable I to
enjoy the existence of the ceaseless I. Will this happen!
Basudeb Sen

----------------------------------------------

To feel satisfied, seek satisfaction that any possession, relationship,

situation, idea is good, important, sacred, moral, right, beneficial and so

on apart from its use, is the psychological comfort to which the mind
clings

Then is there nothing as good?

Everything has usage value and that is the only goodness of it.

Y V Chawla

Give Importance to what you Know to be True

Again, a wonderful teaching (rather a whip) from Swamiji with a precision of
RaambaaNa!
"Whatever circumstances one has been placed in, consider those circumstances and
situations as best of all and utilize it well, then you will be benefited … Your
knowledge is not less, however, what you know you are not utilizing it well … If
you utilize this knowledge properly, then this knowledge that you have is
adequate for your benefit ... proper utilization of this knowledge is that, do
not get trapped in the circumstances that have presented themselves to you -
neither become elated or dejected in them."

1. There are two terms in Sanskrit - Rita and Satya. One means perceived truth
and the other the Absolute Truth. How anyone who cannot acknowledge perceived
truth ever can appreciate the Absolute Truth?
2. An individual IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ONE'S HAPPINESS … also the individual
is the only one who is authorised to change one's state of presence - happy or
not.
3. Finally, one does not need anything other than oneself to make oneself happy.
If anything else is used to "bring" happiness in one's life, the thing that
apparently brought the pleasure is sure to perish … and so is the pleasure it
brought along.

The best is Swamiji's response to the questioner's apparent quest for more
knowledge - "Whatever you have knowledge about, are you utilizing that knowledge
properly?" What a wonderful whip any Saadhak need to savor all the time!!!
Quoting Swamiji from other texts, "Baavar bed bidush baavariyaa poti pustak
pandhaa …". Studies through even milleniums cannot bring the awareness, if we
are not willing to utilize the know how we are graced with as of now …

We often bring the so-called "nobility" and even "divinity" to escape from our
fundamental responsibility of being happy succumbing to our eternal hesitance to
exercize the only authority we ever have - to be happy.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

=================================================

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

Give Importance to what you Know to be True

There is one very great point. Have mercy on me and please pay attention.
Whatever circumstances one has been placed in, consider those circumstances and
situations as best of all and utilize it well, then you will be benefited.
Whatever things you have received, you don't need any more things than that.
However much knowledge you have, you don't need to know any more than that. The
amount of strength that you have, you don't need any more than that. Paramatma
(God) can be realized simply by putting to proper use the strength, the
intellect, the abilities, the circumstances etc. that you have. This is the
absolute Truth and is the principle.

Your knowledge is not less, however, what you know you are not utilizing it
well. You do not give it importance - that is your limitation. The
circumstances that have been presented in front of you, will not remain like
this forever. This knowledge is not something that you know only slightly, you
know this completely and entirely. If you utilize this knowledge properly, then
this knowledge that you have is adequate for your benefit. It is not even
slightly deficient. The proper utilization of this knowledge is that, do not
get trapped in the circumstances that have presented themselves to you. Neither
become elated or dejected in them.

Questioner: We know this point, however the extent we desire to know, that
much knowledge we do not have.

Swamiji: Whatever you have knowledge about, are you utilizing that knowledge
properly? Those things that you know to be perishable, do you have desire to
attain it or not?

Questioner: Yes we do.

Swamiji: Then where have you understood the term "perishable"? In reality, if
you truly understood "perishable", then you would not desire to attain it. What
is the gain in attaining the perishable? Just like a wealthy man has money.
Without the money he would not be called wealthy, similarly this world has only
perishables and perishing things. That which is perishable how can it benefit
us, how can it be for our welfare?

You your "self" are not perishable, rather the body is perishable. That which
you have received is going to perish, but you the "self" will not perish.
Things were not there initially and will not be there later on. Rather even in
the present it is continuously moving towards destruction. You were there
initially and will remain even after. Your existence will remain at all times.
A question was put forth to me, that in the present how to gain knowledge of our
existence in the future? The answer to that is, that you are afraid to do bad
things and you are pleased when you do good deeds; because you are of the
sentiment that by doing evil deeds you will later on suffer, and by doing good
deeds, you will gain happiness in the future. This is proof that you have
accepted your existence in the future. If we do not accept our existence in the
future, then who will go to heaven? Who will go to hell? You will be
reincarnated? Who will be liberated? On attaining salvation, you will be
blissful or will the world be joyful? The point is that you will remain, and
the body and other things will not.

If you think carefully how can that which is eternal and imperishable attain
happiness from perishable? By saying that something is perishable it means, it
is nothing but destructible, besides being destructible and perishable, it has
nothing.

"Ant tohi tajainge paamar tu ne tajai ab hi te."

That thing which is going to perish, utilize it but do not trust it. Do not
depend on it as your support, having the notion that this thing will gratify me,
that it will lead to my prosperity etc. Think deeply about this - By getting
those things that are currently not with you, how will you be gratified? How
will you prosper? That which is not there right now, will also not remain later
on in the future. It will break away, therefore how will it make you happy?
Who knows with certainty whether you get it or not? And even if you get it, then
too it will not remain, because that which is perishable and destructible will
perish.

The body etc. is perishable - this you know, but you do not believe it. In
other words, you do not give importance to that which you know to be true. If
you gave importance to what you know, then you would not depend on perishables.
You would not have any expectation or hope from these perishables. You would
not become happy on getting them or meeting them. You would not be saddened by
not getting or meeting them. You would not desire for them to remain forever
and forever. You would not worry about them perishing. On not attaining the
situations that you desire, you become unhappy. Then this unhappiness is
nothing but stupidity. It is only stupidity. To want to hold on to those
things and situations that will not remain, and later being saddened by their
departure - what else is all this besides stupidity? If some calamity comes to
us, some sorrow comes to us, than we think how will this go away? But in
reality, it is going away. Whether it is favorable situations or unfavorable
ones, they will not remain. That which comes, is of the nature to go away.

Sarve kshayaantaa nichayaah patanaantaah samuchryaah

sanyogaa viprayogontaa marayaantam cha jeevitam (Valmiki 2/105/16)

The end of all hoarding is utter annihilation. The end of all worldly
successes is a fall. The end of coming together is parting ways. The end of
life is death.

That which is going to part, how can one gain happiness on meeting it? What is
there to be unhappy by it's going away. Neither happiness remains, nor sorrow
remains. Only the self remains. If the one that remains (Self), becomes one
that which comes and goes, one that is happy and sad, then it is only it's own
foolishness.

It is only on attaining That which never perishes, and That which is present
right now, Paramatma, one will gain the kind of happiness that remains forever.
Besides Paramatma if you become satisfied with anything else, whether it is
respect, honor, fame, relaxation, money, family, prosperity etc., you will be
cheated.

(to be continued)

From book in hindi "Acche Bano" and english "Be Good" by Swami Ramsukhdasji

**********************************************************************
Same message is available in HINDI - PLEASE VISIT:
http://www.satcharcha.blogspot.com
Titled "Acche Bano" on 23nd February, 2011.
*********************************************
HINDI : www.swamiramsukhdasji.org
ENGLISH: www.swamiramsukhdasji.net

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