Sunday, January 30, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: Organ donation after death - Why Not done by some Hindus?

 

According to Hinduism, self is beyond body. After atma leaves body, it should
have nothing to do with the body. Then, it is better to use this body in service
of other living entities. It should be great seva to donate organs after death
e.g. give someone eyes to see the world. Why some Hindus don't do organ donation
due to religious reasons?

Gaurav Mittal

---------------------------------------------------

There is saying that Karm ki ghatee attee niyaree hai. Thats if we donate an organ, the receiver can misuse the faculity donated to him/her. It is even in Christ history that he graced a blind with eyes and then regretted it very much as the receiver started going to vaishas kothha.

As Swamiji have already stated below also, we are interfering in His creation by all these unnatural actions. In our life and living if we haven't been of service to His creation, then NISHKAM can not be achieved after the death.

Aabhari
KC
----------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Human birth is the ONLY life form in which you can become liberated. Reason is that you got bound only in human life. It is a principle: You can open the knot only from the place where the knot is bound. Till you get liberated, the human birth (body) is the only tool from where you can get liberated. Precisely therefore, in Scriptures, the ONLY object of human life is stated to be Self/God Realisation !! Logically, therefore, till you get liberated, the possession of human body is like that of trustee by you. You can't mis-use with it or destroy or donate it till its object is fulfilled. This human body thus is a very important tool given to you for a specific reason, and you must not lose anything of it without achieving the purpose for which you have been granted !

Accordingly, it is highly improper to donate organs of human body before or after death...till you have achieved its object viz you have liberated yourSelf. You don't own it. How can we donate what is given to us for a particular purpose by Paramatma? No... We can not.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------------------------------
Body has been put in the same class as clothes [Gita 2 : 22] which when discarded are imparted with by nearly all wearers with the view they serve the needy by doing so.
Here the Question is : WHO DONATES? DOES THE DEAD BODY DONATES ITSELF? OR THE DEHEE (THE ONE WHO LIVED WITH THE BODY)? Please clear it first then answer is readily available for it from your within.
Question asked is ambiguous.
Humbly,
Sadhak.

------------------------------------------------------

Pranaams.
I have serious difference of opinion with you on this issue. I would like to submit humbly my views:
You say "the rights to give away one's wealth and property is only for adults and not for minors, similarly rights to donate body parts lies only with liberated great souls/men. He who has attained salvation / liberation, whose human birth has become a success, he is an "adult" (reached maturity). Others are all minors. Even a liberated, great soul, can donate his eyes while the body is alive only, not after parting from the body. "
One who has attained liberation has nothing more to do with his human body - neither sukrutham nor dushkrutham. Question of donation after discarding the body or while in the body , therefore does not arise. Secondly, every time the Sarira for the next birth is chosen it is done according to the type of body needed to discharge the chosen part of the sanchitha Karma during such next birth. In my understanding, no reference is made to the completeness or incompleteness of the previous body. Therefore according to me there is no question of one taking birth without an eye or with a defective eye.
Donation of the eye is a noble gift. The decision to donate taken before death, credits punya of a very high Dhana to the soul in that particular birth and will fetch him punya phalam in the next birth as I understand it.Donated by others after an individual death will not affect that dead individual, since he had not done that act!
so I feel that donating eye , or for that matter any organ, is a good gesture. I would be inclined to advise the people to donate.
Regards.
Prof (Major) Ramanujam.
----------------------------------------------------------

Namaste all. I agree with Gaurav that when the atman leaves the body along with the subtle body, it is the body alone that remains. In my opinion it is a far higher dharma to donate body parts that can benefit others in life than to hold on to them for cremation.

Dr Rampersad
-----------------------------------------------------

In my opinion it is perfectly legitimate and commendable when someone donates his eyes or
other organs after death (oe, even before death) for the benefit of
someothers. As I understand it, I do not know of any religious bar on such donation. When the religious
scriptures were composed or written down long long time age there was no
facility or technology available for effective donation of organs after
death. So, the belief that religious restrictions stop one from donating
organs is in my opinion a misleading belief and mental block of those who think that the
religion restricts such donations.
Hinduism is for sacrifice for others. Dahichi gave away his bones to make
weapoins for Indra!
But that does not mean that one who does not want to donate his organs is
doing anything wrong. Not donating organs is also a perfectly legitimate and
commendable job. If someone believes that he/ she is too much attached to
his organs and wants to see all organs burnt into ashes after death, he is
doing a perfectly good thing.
What Hindu dharma prescribes is to give away, to sacrifice everything for
some one else. But not all Hindus can practice this prescription in every
respect/ sphere. The same is true of all non-Hindus.
So, why worry about others. If one wants to donate, one should go ahead
without bothering what others or Hindus are doing.
As per Gita, one cannot give or take: God decides who has to give away what
from one's own possession and who does not. The body does not belong really
to the self or a person. All these are only of God. And, God decides
Basudeb Sen

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Gauravji, it is as if Swamiji knew your question was coming... Today's Sadhak
message talks about the same topic...It is attached below - Ram Ram

Is it Proper to Donate One's Eyes after Death?

Questioner: Is it right / proper to donate one's eyes after death?

Swamiji: In my view, after death to donate one's eyes is entirely improper.
Just as the rights to give away one's wealth and property is only for adults and
not for minors, similarly rights to donate body parts lies only with liberated
great souls/men. He who has attained salvation / liberation, whose human birth
has become a success, he is an "adult" (reached maturity). Others are all
minors. Even a liberated, great soul, can donate his eyes while the body is
alive only, not after parting from the body.

Rishi Dadhichi while alive had given his body to Indra for "vajranirmaan". King
Alerk had also donated his eyes to a blind Brahmin while he was alive.

Shaibya shenakapoteeye svamaansam pakshina dadou |
Salarkschshi dattvaa jagaaam gatimuttmaam || (Valmiki. Ayodhya. 12/43)

"King Shaibya in the midst of a fight between a pigeon and a hawk (for
fulfilling the king's promise to save the pigeon's life), the king cut off a
piece of his own flesh to give to the hawk. Similarly, Alark donated to a blind
Brahmin both his eyes, and attained the highest state."

One must not repeated touch, disturb a dead body. By cutting any part of the
body, in the next birth, one does not get that part. Even if one gets that
part, there is something lacking in it or there is some sort of defect that
remains.

In some men the previous life's birth marks are also seen in this birth. On the
death of a child if the mother applies garlic on any body part, then that mark
remains even in the next birth.

On the subject of donating your eyes after death, I had asked this question in
the "Shri Givaarnvaagvardhinee Sabha" of Varanasi. They put together their
decision and wrote back to me.

"Purushahutirhyasya priyatama" ... in accordance with several conclusive
statements, oblation and sacrifice of the body is in the fire.

"Surya te chakshurgacchatu" in the beginning there is also a statement - The
fire having the rights over the objects used in sacrifice, i.e. the body,
therefore using your own intelligence to decide on depriving it of a limb, is
not appropriate or right.

When the body is non-existent, and a statue is made of the person, at that time
sea-shells are used as a means to show the imagined place of the eye. By this
it is proven that eye is the root, main body part, and it's existence is
indispensable. Mutilating of the body for donating the eyes is financially
prohibited.
From book in hindi "Satsang ke Phool" by Swami Ramsukhdasji.

NOTE: Due to some terminology being unclear for translation purposes, for
accuracy please read the HINDI message in the link below.

**********************************************************************
TO READ MESSAGE IN HINDI PLEASE VISIT:
http://www.satcharcha.blogspot.com
Titled "Kyaa Mrutyu ke baad netra daan ucchit hai?" on Jan 28, 2011.
**********************************************************************
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ENGLISH: www.swamiramsukhdasji.net
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[gita-talk] Re: What should the Wife do after giving up everything, is still not accepted by Husband?

 

if the husband does not recognise or accepts his wife;s devotion for
him. Wife on the other hand keeps on doing her duty to her best
physically emotionally or financially .she had sacrificed her career,
her own people, even that too for some decades . yes it becomes her
habit also, there are social pressures family prestige also, what should the
wife do?

CN
-------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

...And lift mineness from husband. Don't be bitter, don't harness hatred for him. Don't get panicky also. Don't regret also. Don't run away too. Simply, Don't consider him at all to be mine... Instead consider God to be mine.

Said Mirabaai :

AISE VAR KO KYAA VAROO, JO JAAYE AUR MAR JAAY !

VAR VARYO GOPALJI, MHARO CHUDALO AMAR HO JAAY !!

What is there to select in an earthly husband, who can die also ? Why not to wed with Gopaal ( God Himself) so that my bangles attain immortality.

It is a law: If you lift mineness from some one, immediate improvements will manifest in the conduct of that some one.

... And then keep doing your duty.

The message of Neetishji Dubey is indeed very very true. Actually, 'Karma-phal' means you can't avoid it. Hence an effort to change the circumstances very rarely would result in betterment, unless your 'phal' (result) is over. Adverse circumstances must end and so must favourable ones. But,they end on their own time...irrespective of your desire to end them. HENCE, once you have conquered the impact thereof ( not getting sorrowful/happy) .. It does not matter whether existing circumstances remain or not. This status you reach when you do your duty and stop expecting anything in return.

My mom often says:

BHAGANE SE NAHIN, BHOGANE SE CHHUTKARA MILATA HAI

You don't get free by running away (from adversity) ; you get free by consuming ( tolerating/ allowing to cease naturally) it !
Why you can't run away? Because you are bound ! You are born bound , O Jeeva. Till you repay the debt of karma , where can you go? Karma will follow you wherever you go. Had cessation of adversity been possible by any means, human would have not remained human. No amount of efforts by human can remove adverse circumstances. KUN MAANI MANI NAHIN, HONHAAR SE HAAR ? Who is that respected man , who has not accepted defeat before what is destined ? (No body can prevent receipt of circumstances based on Karma) !!! So there you are BOUND , AVASHAH (helpless- BG 9/8) ! Because sorrows are hidden in your own nature/intellect , therefore wherever you go they chase you. Hence Said Lord Krishna to Arjuna ..BG 18: 59

If, taking your stand on egotism, you think, "I will not fight", vain is this resolve of yours; (your own) nature will drive you to the act.

Hence instead of trying to change others/circumstances/ situations AS they are , CHANGE YOURSELF. Say fearlessly:

MERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL, DOOSARO NA KOI !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhak,
Surely the Gita does not propogate Male Chavinism...
Kindly enlighten us all...
Yogesh Lajmi.
--------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaki,
You have nothing to do as per Geetha. You are Karma Yogi. Rare is a person like
you. You are much above the realizing spiritual seekers. My heart felt Namaste
to you- Bless me please. By the way - When your husband does not recognized your
devoted duties- Please treat it as your past Karmas are getting washed off. Also
just forget and continue, you will surely reach HIS abode- Says Geethachariya
Sri Krishna.
B.Sathyanarayan

---------------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

I am not sure whether the points mentioned in the question reflects the complete
situtaion but whatever I can imagine, I would like to offer few points which
might help you.

To reach to a conclusion, I would like you to first understand "What do you
expect from your life?". In my understanding, the solution of any problem in the
life revolves around understanding this particular point.

If it is just entertaining the life from the perspective of the world, then you
can decide accordingly but I am not sure whether you would be ever able to reach
at this conclusion (i.e. you really enjoyed your life). So, let the decision be
solely from your own perspective as it is your own life which is very precious.

Everyone lives with his/her own nature/beliefs. Some people live just to
entertain their own natures and some live to purify their natures so that they
can see the TRUTH behind everything. DHARMA, which is active form of TRUTH,
always helps the people towards purifying their natures to enable them to attain
the real goal (i.e. TRUTH/Perfection). DHARMA mainly focuses on the selfless
duty (note that duty is only in the hand of human beings; KARMANI EVA
ADHIKAARSTE - GitaJi 2/47) than the objects of the recipients of the duty as the
key is selflessness which purifies the nature.

I am not sure whether changing the recipient of the duty will improve your
selflessness. But, if you decide to change it, I will advice you not to carry
forward any imprints from one place to another. Lastly, if you feel unable to
decide, you can offer all your problems/questions/doubts/dilemma to the lotus
feet of the Supreme Self (within you) who is your own eternal mother, father,
teacher, friend and also the abode of the eternal DHARMA/solutions,
happiness/bliss/goal (GitaJi - 5/29; 9/17; 11/43; 14/27) and be determinate to
respect your deepest & most clear inspiration/thought as deeper/clearer your
thought is longer it will guide/help/protect you in your life.

May God bless you and all !
Niteesh Dubey

----------------------------------------------------------
i totally agree with sadhna karigar and y.v/ chawla ji i had also
suggested the almost same - jai shri krishna the same to my this sister and
leave the rest on god
chaman nigam
----------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to give a few words out of my experience. When I was a newly married
bride / house wife, I had several 'adjustment problems' and faced many comments
and 'rejection' attitudes from my in-laws (ours was a joint family and
sincerely, I never had any thoughts of seperating from my parents-in-law). When
I felt bad that I was not respected properly by all others, my dear husband only
told one thing which stuck to me all my life and I use it in every aspect of my
life (also useful to progress spiritually too). He said - "you cannot demand
respect from others, but you have to command it".
I came to know I should learn how 'command respect' and started developing
purity of heart and thoughts - not commenting on others and then - the result is
I saw change. (I am a woman with two kids who are grown up now).

Regarding this question, I think the best person to decide is the sadhika
herself. The answer will come from within!

Regards,
Another Sadhika (PJ)

I think it is not very appropiate and helpful to say that WIFE IS FOR
HUSBAND without incorporating that Husband is also for wIFE.
Mohan K Muju
------------------------------------------------
these words like goodness or righteousness are meaningless words in the wake of
"very body is right n every body has own liking"culture. there is nothing wrong
or wright in today's westernised influence on people mind . best is the vedic
gurukul shiksha paddhhatti which is directed towads lakshay chatushtya .
1-dharam 2- arath 3, kaam , 4-moksha

ramans shriman
-----------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhika,

after decades of dedicated service you still EXPECT acceptance, recognition from
your spouse, that is the saddest part of your life.Please LEAVE ALL
EXPECTATIONS RIGHT AWAY...and I really mean it. Right now in this very moment
leave all the expectations from your spouse or any other worldly
relationships.Be free from all the expectations ....dive deep within... and you
will find the right path ....
Remember what our beloved Swamiji says, "I am God's.Only God is MINE. This
world belongs to God. "
And I am serving God's world with whatever capacity/ability given to me by my
God.
with lots of Love,
A sadhika
Sadhna Karigar
----------------------------------------------------------

"Truth does not specify what action you are to take,
Truth sets you free so that you may take ANY action."
When no comfort is sought through results, one becomes one with the situation-
whatever action emerges is complete. It is not a reaction, but complete at the
action level itself. Just see this and be free. Shed the comfort of being
superior, important.
All are in the same boat.
Y V Chawla
----------------------------------------------------------

Very often, we ourselves do not know what we want. If only we could understand
our own self better.....
we keep living a miserable life for no reason.... We have a choice....to choose
happiness....

To know what exactly we want or like best from whatever we do in life, requires
guided contemplation.....

Is it money, is it recognition, is it appreciation, is it comforts, or
else.....then we need to understand the real role of
money, recognition, appreciation, comforts.....and what these give us in
return.....is it happiness/satisfaction - may be a short term happiness...so
what do we want ultimately.....is it an all-time-happiness called true happiness
- happiness which does not go away with changing situations. True happiness is
close to bliss and creates happy environment around us.....others feel happy too
in our company.....

Is it really possible to have such a thing? Yes, that is what the spirituality
is all about. Spiritual wisdom is the experiential knowledge of principles of
life. If we are in tune with the principles of life/wisdom of life......it is
possible to live in happiness all the time...in all situations by making right
choices.....
----------------------------------------------------------\
\
------------------
In the present situation, it is not possible for outsiders to judge where the
things are going wrong.....but it certainly appears that wife is doing her duty,
sacrificing her everything, in compulsion from a belief that wife has to be
devoted to her husband.....this itself may be going against her since wisdom is
to do everything in happiness....in an unconditional/impersonal manner (as if
for our own pleasure)... If one is not happy, make a choice again to do
something else so that one is happy again.......even if it means going away from
her husband temporarily or permanently but peacefully......not in
revenge/anger.....

Our happiness is the most important wealth of ours and we must not loose it
ever. In happiness, we are able to express all values naturally.....Everything
must be done in happiness....enjoying the process at each moment......and not
wait for happiness as the end result, which is a deception we often face....
Clear understanding is important to live blissfully......

Understand, experiment, experience the true happiness....best wishes....

Sushil Jain
-------------------------------------------------------

Dear ALL,

She should analyse and understand that NATURE can never do injustice to anybody
including her. Whatever she is getting in return for her Loyality to husband is
outcome of her own past bad Karmas performed in previous lives. Additionally,
she should that Almighty that the account of her bad Karmas is getting erased
fast by way of bad treatment of her husband!

Jai Srikrishna!
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar,

For a fruitful and successful married life, there should be a perfect
understanding and cooperation between husband and wife. If the wife has
sacrificed everything for the husband and he is not accepting it or not caring
for.....he is an idiot....not fit for a homely life...the wife should leave him
and stay alone or with her children or with her parents and be independent of
her husband..

---Gee Waman
----------------------------------------------------

She (and everyone) should do what her inner self (not the mind) says.
There is no better guide (guru) for anyone than his/her own inner self (swayam,
the God within).
Humbly,
Sadhak.

-------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Firstly I question whether the contributers and the Moderators are MCPs, there
has been a gradual erosion of womens rights down through the ages, but very few
in this forum seem to be dyed in the wool chauvinists, (a sort of MCP club for
the boys).
Dear Yogesh Lajmi you seem to be bristling with anger, better to make your case,
not just with inference, I myself have researched the subject, and am a champion
of womens rights!
Looking at CN's original question, there seems to be several points, I noticed
'some decades', this dutiful wife maybe in a situation where the children have
grown, also I notice the sense of isolation, having sacrificed 'her own people',
these things can compound this sense of loneliness and regret, especially if
the husband is indifferent and rapped up in self interest.
A problem added to by the restraints of what is essentially a value system one
has never fully come to terms with.
Remember the dutiful wife is, a wife, queen of her household, not a slave! She
can attend to her wifely tasks, and seek some wholesome activity to take her
through the darkness she may feel, remember in the darkest place one can easily
see the Light of The Divine.
I suppose I have said no more than other sadhaks, but maybe between us a common
line of thought may arise that may help this good wife.
My heartfelt good wishes.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
---------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

The non-sensical stuff which a human often pours out by way of complaints, blame
game, fixation of responsibilities on 'others' for wrong doings, dubbing others
by various titles (pig/ chauvenist/ dominator/ lib...) and the way in which a
human insists for 'rights' (often ignoring DUTY) , the way in which worldly
happinesses are sought... the way in which 'Scriptures' are
'seen/analysed/interpreted/ talked about'....the way in which the faculty of
criticism has advanced.... It is mind boggling !

Indeed, such tendencies, mental equipments have to be order of the day in
Kaliyuga as per Scriptures written ages and eons ago. When one observes such
tendencies, one has to admire the wisdom of our ancestors...their vision and
their intellect... And the authenticity/ wisdom/ truth and timelessness of OUR
Scriptures ! Alas ...intellects/minds and egos are depleting, depleting ..with
every passing day. While we claim and insist for 'advancement' in intellects, in
physical/material terms... the fact remains ....we are falling,
deteriorating....getting reverse !!

One of the finest principles which is core of Law of Karma is that one never
suffers due to wrong doing of others...it is a key Law. The Creator is stated
and believed always to be not only JUST and EQUITABLE but also THE MOST
BENEVOLENT and MERCIFUL. You will NOT find a mixture of JUSTICE as well as MERCY
anywhere else except in GOD, His Laws and His decisions/provisions...I
repeat...no where else !!! BUT can the modern human with its flithy and garbage
like mental equipment ever appreciate that ? One must first learn to sit in
Satsanga....!!

Saints have said : 'Sukhasya Dukhasya Na Kopi Daata; Paro Dadaati Kubuddhi
Resha' ...there is no 'other' giver of happiness or sorrow to you ..that 'other'
is giver...this very thought represents 'spoilt/reverse/ bad intellect' (as
defined in BG 18:32 ).

Why one should object to 'right advice' imparted by any Forum ...say by this
Forum ? One does not enjoy using cheap language ...but I am reminded of an idiom
in Hindi (Sadhaks...please forgive me ) ... "Raand Sudharana Chahe to Usko
Bhadave Nahin Sudharane Dete" ..."Pimps don't let a prostitute walk on right
path" (If somebody needs correct advice, people obstruct him to receive that ) .
Why at all one should 'presume' any advice by this Forum will be wrong, without
even reading it ? Since when any individual intellect has assumed such vision
and future telling? Real Shame is there ...not any where else !!! How can there
be a cause of shame, without even expression of subject? If it is...it
represents only negativity, only third grade insistence, only criticism , only
ego and only darkness. You are sitting in the world's finest Satsanga
Forum...you MUST learn to conduct appropriately and suitably.

If soul is separate from body, then where is the Q of getting impacted by
adversities on minds/intellects/ body ? If you have relationship ONLY with
God...then where is the Q of expectation from any worldly person / thing/
relation impacting you? Why at all you should pay attention to temporary when
you are permanent? Why you should be critical of imperfection when you are
perfect ? Why you should worry when already you are child of the King of all
Kings...Emperor of all emperors ? Tell me....?

At the same time, I must also say that the responses of Notesh Otes and Naga
Narain were very divine, very correct and very accurate. This is what a Divine
Forum like this GT Forum is capable of imparting. Unfortunate are those, who
pick holes in such Divine Forum !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------
How about looking at the impact on self? and meditate on 'habit'? Desire is to
be accepted. All the sacrifices are actions and being accepted by the husband is
the phal. as in karama phal.
When we serve others, we also need to take care of ourselves. Any of the
different forms of yoga would be answer to this process. 2nd, 3rd and 4th
chapters of Bhagavad Geetha are great support and guiding spirit.

Veena Hassan
----------------------------------------------------------

Marriage is the worst thing that can happen to a woman if she gets a bad
husband. Earlier it was considered the duty of a wife to consider her husband as
Pati Parmeshwar but then the times have changed and so have the laws. So there
is a limit to everything, even martial abuse and if the limits of tolerance are
crossed then the courts are always there to provide relief.
Hari Shanker Deo

----------------------------------------------------------

Female should consider LOYALS THAN ROYALS/This is unmistakable remedy

Basu Dev
--------------------------------------------------

There is no single formula answer to this question as things depend on the
circumstances. First, what does the wife wants: to lead a conjugal life with
an husband who is not responsive and unwilling to accept her? She can
continue to do this because of extremely passionate love for the husband
just for the sake of love but she must know that things will not ever
improve except by chance and she will suffer physically, financially and
problems of isolation at old age. Maybe she does not love the person as
passionately as she did in the beginNing because she has now found out the
man is too selfish, irresponsible and has much important priorities in life
than the wife. In that case if she is continuing to be devoted to the
husband and doing her duties, the only reason is compulsion: she do not want
her parents and relatives to get saddened by her choice to leave the
husband or maybe she would not be able to revive her career and be
financially independent. In that case she must seriously explore how she can
become financially independent by starting a career afresh. Is she can find
that opportunity, she must immediately leave the husband and concentrate on
building up her career and financial independence without giving much
importance to social prestige or family unhappiness because these are really
not important here; rather, if she can become financially independent that
should earn her social prestige and also make her parents and relatives
including the husband she would desert, would be happier. There is no point
in enduring all sorts of pain and sadness in mind when such sacrifices and
depressive living will never give her any satisfaction in life. If she does
still want to sacrifice, she should do so for the benefit of one or more
weak persons in the society: if home does not give you love and respect/
recognition, maybe you can get these by doing social service as the
missionaries and sanyasinis do by leaving the love-less home.
But whatever she does, she must be in constant prayer and worship God.
She should follow Lord Krishna's advise to leave her ego, become desireless,
accept all things that happen with equanimity and hence remain unperturbed
by all that happens, consciously shun all thoughts of anguish, grief and
disappointment as soon as they arise in her mind, and submit every thing to
God believing that God will do whatever is good for her sooner or later. She
therefore needs to change her perspective of being a victim of a husband or
a family or a society: instead she should develop in her a perspective of
being an emancipated soul exploring and enjoying whatever happens.
Very difficult indeed. But that is the only choice for human beings.
Basudeb Sen

--------------------------------------------------------

Many people who accept traditional value system give men a choice. They are
allowed to follow spiritual path to attain the Supreme Goal. But very few men
follow it. Most men in India lead a life of corruption, dishonesty, adharma,
full of sensual gratification etc. The society allows them to do so. Men can
treat their wife improperly. Men can beat their wife. Men can cheat his wife and
even leave her for another women. All that is acceptable in the society.

Just like few men can follow the ideal path of attaining the Supreme Goal, only
few women can do it. Somehow, women are not given a choice. They are forced to
be servant of their husbands. They are forced to have only one man even if he
does not satisfy her. They are forced to lead a life without material pleasures
in name of chastity or dharma.

If man is not treating her properly or beating her, she is asked to tolerate it.
Society almost forces her to tolerate it as it is her dharma. Society does not
do anything to man who mistreat her. She is supposed to suffer silently.

All this is done and the spiritual leaders who are supposed to be full of
compassion allow it. It is my kind request to this group to not promote such
views. Please be considerate towards all people irrespective towards their
gender. Please get out of brain washing by male chauvinist society and be kinder
human being. Spiritual leaders might have made wrong statements. But you don't
have to follow them and you can improvise them.

In the end, you cannot force women to be without desires. They are human being
and they have right to be happy in this world. You may quote Swami Ramsukh Das
and tell that it is duty of all human to be without desires. I agree. But that
is duty of both men and women. You cannot force women to do that just like you
don't force men.

The position of women in India is quite bad. If people like you won't do
anything, then it will remain same. Sanatan dharma will get bad name even though
it is beyond gender.

Gaurav Mittal

--------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Certain relations in life are not based on PRESENT KARMAS. Many are such ...you
are born in a family of beggar or king, surely not based on your present life
karmas. Your parents, children, paternals, maternals ...you SIMPLY get them
without any apparent present life Karmas for the same. One of such relation is
that of SPOUSE...! What kind of present life karmas are made to deserve a good
or bad husband or wife? In Hindi films there is one song....KAL TAK JO BEGAANE
THE, JANAMO KE MEET HAIN ...( Upto yesterday two souls were totally stranger but
today are like bonded for ages and eons) ! You are of marriageable
age...proposal comes...everything appears okay... INTELLECT changes to suit
destiny....you agree !

Gita defines/explains this phenomena as KARMANU BANDHINI MANUSHYA LOKE...Entire
humanity is BOUND by (prior) Karmas...BG 15:2...by Karmas of unknown
time/nature...of time you may not even remember. ELSE why would a lady as great
as Mandodari would get stuck with husband like Raavana ? Why would a person like
Dhritrashtra get a gem of a wife like Gandhaari ??

Hence, however smart you may sound or brag about...you MUST accept that you are
BOUND by prior Karmas ...you can't escape that...Nay...Never ! That is a point
on one hand .

On other hand, note the conversation in Mahabharat between Yaksha and
Yuddhister. Yaksha asked what is AUSTERITY ...what is TAPAH ? Yuddhister replied
: To tolerate adversity in life cheerfully ! You can't be ruing or regretting
...brooding or fretting ...about THAT which actually and in essence is an
AUSTERITY for you ...! REMEMBER....You are being observed by Laws of Nature....!
You don't get emancipated because your husband or wife is deserving...you get
get emancipated because you have done your DUTY irrespective of as to how
actually is your spouse !

What difference does it make as to how is your husband? You are not to live with
him beyond an already fixed pre determined time. You yourself agreed to tie the
knot as life partner...whatever be the logic at that point. Actually, important
is as to how you do your DUTY in adversity...! Oh ...O Dear Jeeva...Human life
is an examination hall ...you can't say this Q is tough and why it is tough ? If
you simply focus on 'your own role' and stop seeking acknowledgement /
appreciation of your goodness ...things will improve dramatically.

Alternately, AT THE CORE of your heart....consider God to be ONLY yours and no
one else ....consider husband to be a medium through which your old karmas are
getting extinguished by consent of Paramatma ...leave MAMTA ...mine-ness with
him....still keep doing your DUTY as hands of a watch do...! If you do so...what
is obstacle ? LEAVE THE DESIRE FOR HAPPINESS FROM HIM...,keep doing your duty
...and keep rememembering Paramatma...JAAKE SIR MOR-MUKUT MERO PATI SOI ....!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------------

Sense of sacrifce … expectations … miseries … marriage …

Dear Sister, you have raised a very personal question which I normally do not
like to address. As the question raised is so close to me with my own sisters at
heart, I am addressing it for my own sake. Please do not get deluded by a sense
of sacrifice. Notional mix-up between social sense and spiritual knowledge could
be extremely dangerous, particularly when the mixture is wrong.

Please remember that only one who is happy can ever give you happiness! Also
please remember that you cannot make anyone happy unless you are happy!! Looks
like a vicious circle .. Right? But, that is the cruel joke that expectations
play on us. At least you know where you stand. Start from yourself. Be happy. If
you can't, question why. There could be two general reasons for one's miseries -
sense of sacrifice and expectations.

Sense of sacrifice IS NOT sacrifice - please remember that. Sense of sacrifice
is a killer - it keeps gloating the ego within and prompts one to look at the
faults in others perpetually. The adversity from your neighborhood increases as
you find more and more faults with the same!

Expectations from others without validating the potential expectations from the
other end is the culmination of notion of sacrifice. You might have "given up"
many things. But, none of them could be in the other fellow's list of
expectations! Have you ever thought about it? People feel gratified only when
"their" expectations are addressed ... not when your expectations are addressed.
That is a reality. Better deal with it.

From social perspective, marriage is as much as a business as any other
relation is. One who understands the demands of a relation and the aspirations
of the related would act in accordance with the social reailty catering to the
wants of the related enties keeping one's own wants in the front line. If one
cannot steer one's own wants to align with the circumstances and vice versa, one
has no choice but to migrate to a fresh start elsewhere. One who insists to
continue in an alien environment is bound to suffer, suffocate and perish
eventually. That is fundamentals of survival. Learn to survive well in your
relation first. How? By examining the wants and espirations from your
circumstances including your husband ... by examining your own aspirations and
wants ... by understanding the root cause for the mismatch, if any, between the
two sets of wants (often you may find blatant contradictions within each set as
well!) ... by educating yourself as well as your spouse to re-examine your
priorities and reset your wants ... by working toward eliminating the hurdles
that are not letting you align yourself with the environment you have chosen ...

ONLY A POSITIVE AND FIRM DIALOGUE CAN HELP HERE. OF COURSE, IF EITHER PARTY IS
NOT WILLING TO LISTEN AND THINK TO EXAMINE ONESELF, THERE IS NO WAY THE RELATION
IS GOING TO FRUCTIFY ITS FRUITS. MIGRATION IS THE ONLY CHOICE LEFT THEN.
CHOOSING A NEWER AND FRESHER ENVIRONMENT AND RELATION IS THE ONLY CHOICE LEFT AT
THE END. BUT ... BEWARE ... THE DISTANT LAND LOOKS PERFECTLY SMOOTH ...
SOMETIMES, THERE MAY NOT BE ANOTHER LAND EVEN AT DISTANCE :(. FOR SURVIVAL
ANYWHERE, YOU NEED TRUST, CONFIDENCE AND PURSUANCE ALONG WITH VIGILENCE AND
AWARENESS.

From spiritual perspective, marriage is an excellent medium to transcend the
worldly hurdles successfully toward emancipation just like any other relation.
If the relation is positive and congenial, it gelps to realize the maganimity of
the universal unity as the two entities merge mitigating all their differences
in a relation. If the relation is sore and bitter, it is an opportunity to
question oneself for cleansing the dirt thereof from one's very core.
Spiritually speaking, the world and its relations are ALWAYS useful in either
way. The wisdom of applying oneself in all the adverse as well as congenial
circumstances to seek and attain oneself IS TRUE SPIRITUALITY.

When your mind is in business mode, be a business person. Deal with the social
realities. Of course, educating yourself spiritually will (and SHOULD) help you
deal your social hurdles more efficiently and amicably. If not, your spiritual
education is at fault. ALL THE BEST.

With Due Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear CN,

Please use common sense.

If she has stayed with her husband for decades, then it is better to stay
further. What other option does she have?

She should have been intelligent and continued with her career so that she could
be financially independent. Then, she could had more options. But now it is
past. She needs to make her future better. If she is more happier without her
husband, then she can divorce him and pursue that also. Most probably, she might
be better staying with her husband now.

Please don't confuse spirituality with material life. Many people in this
Gita-Talk forum with confuse you. They will tell you that it is better for her
to serve her husband and that is her dharma etc.... From spiritual perspective,
you are atma (spirit soul) which is beyond this body. You have direct
relationship with God. All these relationships like husband etc are assumed and
are temporary. Self has no relationship with them. So, follow true spirituality.
Dharma related to body is temporary and don't confuse this temporariness with
eternal dharma of atma (sanatan dharma).

In material aspects, understand that all relationships are temporary. Use them
in best way. Use your common sense. Try to be happy and make others happy. If
people around you are stupid and don't want to be happy and hurt you and others,
then it is better to stay away from them.

If you have more questions, you can contact me by email.

Regards,
GM

--------------------------------------------------------

Hello Gita-member,

I am very familiar to your sad story. I have lost
everything in my divorce: she stole my money,
robbed all properties, my life insurance, 401-k,
all my friends, my child and my reputation. After
loosing everything, I got God Blessing such that
it will not go away. I lost everything and I got
"everything" (god blessing). You decide what is
more important: spiritual effects or physical ones?

My experience says, you are not a loser. It may
seems that you are loosing everything (physically)
but you gaining karma. I hope one day you may
get God blessing. Have faith in what I am writing.
It may seem that you are going through "darkness"
but God is not blind and he is watching you. He will
respond to you as soon as your karma is ready.

Trust me. God Blessing! Bye!
Notesh Otes
--------------------------------------------------

Dear Moderators and Members/Contributors,
All of you,as
well as most of your "contributors", clearly qualify to belong to the class of
"Male chauvinst Pigs"...
Are you all
admirers of Yagnyavalkya who defeated Gargi in a debate in Varanasi,only because
the majority of the audience was male...and raised their hands to enable
Yagnyvalkya to win the debate ? The consequences of which are too
well-known...the down-gradation of women to a status inferior to that of
males... ! ! !
If that is
so...SHAME ON YOU ALL ...
Yogesh Lajmi.
----------------------------------------------------
Radhey ! Radhey !!

Shame on those who reflect without even reading...Not on members/contributors of
this Godly Satsanga outfit. Shame on those who whose intellects have become too
rotten to appreciate company of truth. Shame can't be attributed to the
contributors of this forum, if it has to be attributed then it should be on
those blind eyes from which one can not see but they become sour anyway ...shame
on such useless guys...! The Forum which is giving you an equal opportunity of
expression...what are you except ingrat if you criticise it. Shame on you,
bewildered soul.

Radhey ! Radhey !!

Nisha Chatterji
-------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please read the entire thread on a similar topic

ON BEING A CHASTE WIFE
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/4066

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Saturday, January 29, 2011

[gita-talk] Re: How and Why following multiple methods in practice of Meditation be harmful?

 

In many spiritual discourses specific instructions are emphasised that "no two
or multi-methods can be mixed up" in the process of practicing meditation,
because that is very harmful. How and why can it be so?

Aditi Barin

-------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

One of lucrative businesses in modern times is 'Becoming Guru and teaching meditation/ dhyaan to disciples' . There are very few real sincere Gurus/ Teachers like our Brother Mike Keenor. People are lured to 'believe' that meditation is the ONLY way of emancipation and for getting PEACE OF MIND. Damage then caused to confused layman physically, mentally and spiritually is collosal. People start hallucinating, they start believing about reaching to 'another planet' , they lose their mental equilibrium in the process.

Hence one should be very careful in adopting meditation as a 'sadhana process' ! Easier methods are available. Surprisingly, meditation/ austerities are believed even by Shruti, Yukti and Anubhuti principles to be 'essential' . Scriptures will tell you, so and so Rishi did 'tapsya' for so many centuries ! So Shruti supports that. Yukti ( logic /rationale) also tilts in favour of 'meditation/tapsya' etc. Anubhuti (experience) suggests there has to be long and tedious to get/realise God...! We don't find too many realised souls around.

What is the truth ? Truth is ..The Laws made by God do not apply with reference to God. JUST AS: Laws by Parliament are not applicable on Parliament ..else how they can be changed? SIMILARLY : The golden principles of Shruti ( History/Scriptures) ; Yukti (Logic/rationale) and Anubhuti ( experience/ voice of conscience) SINCE made by God Himself to ascertain TRUTH ...do not apply on the Question: Whether God Realisation is easy / quick or very tough/time consuming process. Self/God Realisation is EXCEPTION to the above 3 golden principles of choosing truthful way.

The modern Gurus market the concept that God/Self Realisation can be achieved ONLY through long and protracted austerities and through complex meditation. BUT Saints like Ramsukhdasji Maharaj , Kabir Dassji, Mira Baai, Saint Hariyaa ...etc categorically demolished such concepts and given to the world ...a message... God/Self Realisation is quick and easy and NO ONE has EVER realised God by taking aid/shelter of inert body or processes like 'meditation' ! What kind of meditation was done by Arjuna or by Shabri or by Mira Baai or by hundreds of such realised souls? God/Self Realisation does not necessitate any tedious and complex processes like Kundalini awakening etc.

However for good health, slight peace of mind, for 'siddhis' etc meditation may be a way BUT certainly not for Self/God Realisation...NEVER !!! Pranaayaam, Kapaal Bharati , Asans etc are good for healthy and disease free living only... But for spiritually ...you have to rise above BODY /MIND.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Dear Aditi ,

Just like to clarify a few points re meditations:
Srimadbhagavad-Gita introduction to Chapter 6: This Chapter discusses at length Dhyanayoga or the yoga of meditations as auxiliary to the practice of both Karmayoga and Sankhyayoga . Control over the body, senses, mind, and intellect is extremely necessary in Dhyanayoga.

So from that one would understand that meditation is a means to an end but not an end in itself, rather an adjunct to ones journey to 'The Beloved'. Some people are born to it (meditation) Sahaj Samadhi, as a dear friend referred to it. It is not for all!

I have pasted in some points from Gitaji Ch.6 re meditation:
A transcendentalist should always engage his body, mind and self in relationship with the Supreme; he should live alone in a secluded place and should always carefully control his mind. He should be free from desires and feelings of possessiveness. [6.10]

To practice yoga, one should go to a secluded place and should lay kusa grass on the ground and then cover it with a deerskin and a soft cloth. The seat should be neither too high nor too low and should be situated in a sacred place. The yogi should then sit on it very firmly and practice yoga to purify the heart by controlling his mind, senses and activities and fixing the mind on one point. [6.11-12]

Notice the instruction in 6:10 'A transcendentalist should always engage his body, mind and self in relationship with the Supreme'.

Pranayama is also spoken of in Gitaji Ch.4:

Still others, who are inclined to the process of breath restraint to remain in trance, practice by offering the movement of the outgoing breath into the incoming, and the incoming breath into the outgoing, and thus at last remain in trance, stopping all breathing. Others, curtailing the eating process, offer the outgoing breath into itself as a sacrifice. [4.29]

All these performers who know the meaning of sacrifice become cleansed of sinful reactions, and, having tasted the nectar of the results of sacrifices, they advance toward the supreme eternal atmosphere. [4.30]

I think one can sense the pitfalls that may await the unwary sadhak, and implicit is the need for strict guidance/knowledge!

Kundalinee a controversial subject is hinted at above and also referred to directly in 'Essence of Yogavaasishtha the Glory of Choodaalaa page 256 chapter 41 through 46, if one does not have a copy of the book, I have pasted in a brief summery of chapter 24.

XXV The Glory of Choodaalaa.........
The Rise of Knowledge
Kundalince (The Potential Bio-Energy in Living Beings)
Diseases of the Mind and Body
Supernatural Powers like Animan
The Need for Instruction

I might add Kundalinee can awaken, without esoteric practices, usually through intense desire for the Absolute Truth, very touchy subject, and even through silent japa, as per the book 'The Cloud of Unknowing/The Book of Privy Counseling', where the author warns of the dangers thereof for the unwary! Another reference was Bede Griffiths (a Benedictine Monk) encounter with Shakti, (that almost killed him), as fare I know practiced only the silent mantra (silent japa). {Just picked Western reference to show the universality of the subject}.

Big subject.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.

-----------------------------------------------------

Meditation is of the nature of Understanding .The Technique of meditation is beautifully expressed in Bhagvada Geetha , Chapter 6 . Meditation is " Letting go .... "
Once the mind becomes silent ... once, its constant chattering stops ............... AWARENESS takes over .

And, in the Light of Awareness , words and thoughts ( Life is nothing but Thoughts) begin to reveal to you their true meaning ....... what it means is ...... NOW, the self begins expressing in action all that was ' intellectual ' till now but could NOT be expressed in action because of the constant flux of the wavering mind.

All the techniques of Meditations are NOTHING, but derivatives of the basic technique given in Bhagvada Geetha to suit individual potential and temprament.

One's own experience is the Proof for the vearcity of any teaching . It is MEDITATION that has filled narinder's coffers with wealth of Understanding , Love and Joy.

Meditation is an aid to whatever one wants to do, for awareness is needed for all achievement ..... whatever be your wont.
Try for yourself , and be your own Proof ...... aapo deepo bhava.....

The Knowers have avered that any technique you adopt should be tried for at least three clear months before being replaced by another. BUT, as narinder said right at the beginning , Meditation is of the nature of Understanding, and if Chapter Six is clearly understood ........ any techique you adopt shall become fruitful .

AUM
narinder bhandari

-------------------------------------------------------

Dear sadaks,
Mind by nature keeps on meditating. It is NOT silent except in Samadhi or Duryiya Stages, which are exceptionally possible only by very great Yogies. Mind meditates on Money, woman, fame, vengeance Etc. But one can cut down on all such things and quite the mind by few methods by observing things around and contemplating on the vision seen. Digambar Yogi gave 26 Tathuvas to Janaka how to quieten the mind. This Sri Krishna has refered. Generally we see people who are well established, settled, in many ways and mind craves to get those things neighbour has. But this same mind through sense organ called eyes, see also people without proper cloths, diseases stricken, NO square meal, NO place to sleep except platform Etc. If we think that Sri Krishna has blessed us million times better than them, we see peace within us. This peace develops in calmness thus facilitating mind to concentrate on divinity. We do think about this certainly. But here we think more and many times about other well off and few times thinking of Platform dweller. Mind said to be 16 Billions cells. The more it records on certain thing, it sends signals to crave behind them. The less the recording- we forget good things. That is why, we get Smasana Vairagiya (Determination to be good) when our close one seen burring or cremated. Just few days later back to the same square peg. Only 5 to 10 % we use our brain according to doctors. Buddha had the same eyes like us. He saw and DEEP contemplation made him to seek eternity. A gold merchant of recent years Sant Vammana in Andra Pradesh- saw his beloved brother daughter dying at age 10. He just left the gold shop like that after few days, as he was contemplating on what is life after all. He sat in Bagavan Shiva temple for days wondering, where the kings or poor are going after death. Bagavan Shiva in disguise as a sanyasin appeared and said, "Oh man what is that you want. Can I give you mantra where you can get baskets of Diamonds, or can I tell you how to become famous with thousands of followers or can I tell a mantra were you can heal any disease''. The man said he needs nothing but answer as to what is after death. Sanyasin said that Raja Yoga will give answer to that. The man pleaded with tears and Sanyasin as Shiva gave him Upadesh of Raja Yoga. This Vemanna practiced meditation and great saint. One of his verses say," Cut all your desires- Even desire to perform sadana- just quieten the mind and you will see Bagavan Shiva within you". Same thing Bible or Quran says. "Empty thyself I (God) shall fill it" What to empty- Sri Krishna says,'' Leave everything to me- Surrender all your actions of thought and karmic actions to me- I (God) shall save and give you mukthi". Coming to the question- Sri Krishna in Geetha said, By keeping your eyes on good things it is Tapas (Meditation) of the eyes, by hearing good things, it is Tapas of ears, by talking of divine matters it is Tapas of mouth Etc. Dear Sri VYASJI please DO NOT use the word Stupid. So there is NO separate thing called meditation. The great men meditated on ONE GOAL- they got it. We meditate on different things and get sorrow though it starts with sweet pleasures. Now coming to different types of Meditation- on different Gods, will not focus ones mind to achieve the goal in this human short life. A saint said to cowherd man who pleaded him for some Mantra where he can see God, "Bedfellow".(Insanskrit). This man earnestly followed it, earnestly without second opinion second thought (Whether Mantra will work or not). He saw God where as this saint could not see God. Again Sri Krishna says in Geetha, "I (God) will appear in that form which my Baktha meditates". So NO second thought, NO second opinion, No second Guru, No Second God, but let it be firm on one thing only. Second will lead one to NOWHERE certainly. Pardon me if I should have hurted anyone.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------------------------------

Dear Aditi

All meditation techniques are covered in Vigyan Bhairav Tantra ,where Lord Shiva explains 108 or 112 techniques to Parvati.

Gita has following verses on meditation-
verses 27 & 28 of 5 th chapter,verses 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 ,17 0f 6th chapter.

Verse 13 of 6th chapter and verse 27 of 5 th chapter contains true meditation technique.

1)Body,neck and head be straight (in Padmasan body,neck and head is straight) and without movement-achal and sthir and look at the tip of the nose or look straight.as per verse 13th of 6th chapter.
2)Without thinking about outside materialistic subject ,fixing sight at the agyachakra-beetween eyebrows,pay attention to the breath in the nostrils and make the incoming and outgoing breath equal.verse 27 of 5th chapter.

Sadhaks can read the above mentioned verses for proper understanding as my explanation may not be clear and upto the mark.
Gita contains pure form of meditation.
What is practiced presently in the name of meditation is not meditation at all.
One should practice meditation as per Gita.The object is to move mind from other objects and think about God only.
Practicing more than one form of so called meditation reduces effectiveness of meditation as different form nullifies effectiveness of other meditation.
regards

Ashok Jain
----------------------------------------------------------

How and Why following multiple methods in practice of Meditation be
Dear All,
Namaskar!

That is very true & logical since, if one practices two or, more methods of medication his concentration of meditation would get divided and therefore diluted! Therefore reaching pinpointed perfection be difficult if not impoosible.

This could be understood easily by refering to the following proverbial saying that:

ONE SHOULD NEVER RIDE TWO HORSES OR PUT ONE FEET INTO TWO BOATS AT THE SAME TIME!!! Obviously that would be sucidal.

Even Lord Krishna has varned that PAR DHARMA BHAYA VAHA! MEANING, ONE SHOULD NEVER ACT ACCORDING TO ONE'S OWN INHERTED NATURE OVER INNUMERABLE NUMBER OF LIVES!
I am
KKK
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

--------------------------------------------------
Thanks to all of the participants, especially to Shri Gaurav Mittal, who appears to be a known friend in the last Vipassana course attended in Dec,2010, if not mistaken.
To be precise about the problem faced, having been initiated in Ramakrishna Mission well back in 1997 with "Mantra Diksha", religiously following for more than 12 years entered into "Vipassana meditation" since August-September, 2010 and completed two ten days' courses, the last being in December,2010.There it has been advised to set aside whatsoever are there in the mind earlier.Else, it may be harmful, as has been cautioned !
But the moment mind starts concentrating so very easily in Vipassana method, it starts by itself chanting the Mantra (which has been in practice for such a long time). The "Mantra" is so very well synchronized with the heart rhythm, that the point of concentration of mind in Vipassana meditation starts by itself shifting to the heart as the body gets slowly relaxed.With repeated relocation of mind/concentration point the meditation appears to be disturbed.
Sincerely speaking, mind strongly wants to move by itself to the point of concentration of heart and there it gets completely relaxed.
The two processes appear to be very much interactive. To start with meditation, the Vipassan method is very proactive and as soon as the sensation starts the Diksha mantra by itself starts being chanted in a close circuit following the pattern of the heart rhythms.
Can anybody advise whether this humble fellow is following the right track or he is going to harm himself by combination of the two?
Aditi Barin

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Gita-Member, Mr. Aditi Barin

It is because when you are meditation (of different methods)
your mind still has physical thoughts. It really does not make
a difference whether you do meditation or not. When you are
meditation, you think you are supposed to achieve your goals
but you don't. You have to "transform your thoughts"
such that all of your physical-thoughts are replaced by non-
physical-thoughts (source/divine/higher power/god) in 6-9
months. All other methods will mix you up because none of
them will give results you looking for (see above) and they
become harmful. If goal I mentioned here are not your goals
then what are your goals?

Best of luck. Bye!

Notesh Otes
-------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Actually meditation is a scientific and complex way with reference to 'body/mind' and hence a slight fault in pursuing the same can be harmful. Meditation in case of real Sadhaks ( those who have singular goal of Self/God Realisation) is an optional and not very necessary and not the only process. Rather, For real Sadhaks , the output of meditation is clearly perceived as obstacle. Dozens of other methods are available for them. Gita and God Realised souls, Saints and Sages believe more in 'Sahaj Samadhi' (natural absorption) where no nose or ears need be pressed, no eyes need be closed . Gita, in fact, recommends 'concentration of intellect' while meditation entails 'concentration of mind' ....! In all the cases 'meditation' is a 'state' ...and it is a law: Self/God Realisation is beyond any 'state' !!! There has NOT been a single soul who has accomplished Self/God Realisation by 'meditation' ....in the end you MUST disconnect with body/inert mind ...while in meditation you necessarily take help of body.

For Sadhaks, 'sahaj samaadhi' is the best method. In Ramcharitmanas it is said :

Sankar Sahaj Saroop Sambhaara ! Laagi Samaadhi Akhand Apaara !!

Lord Shiva threw a glance at His natural Self and immediately got immersed in long meditation.

Thus, in actual meditation a mere cursory glance at one's natural Self is sufficient.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------

Mixing multiple methods of meditation ...

Meditation means mitigation of multiplicity ... filtering all the mixtures in our actions, thoughts and experiences so as to dissolve the same into The Witness that one really IS. Therefore, the very notion of mixing methods in meditation sounds self-contradictory to me. The perception of multiple potential paths indicates ones distraction and hence the very presence of thoughts on potentially multiple ways for anything is the indication that the meditation is not even in the platter.

Notion of multiplicity is detrimental to meditation whether the multiplicity is on any worldly object or idea. Meditation is not an exception either. It is just an idea till it is thought of! Therefore, perceiving multpile ways and methods for meditation keeps each of the method as mere an idea. Multiple ideas swarm the seeker and tear him/her in multiple directions. Therefore, multiplicity in meditation methods (as a matter fact, multiplicity in anything) is discouraged while initiating into meditation. The very meditation is to gradually eliminate the multiplicity in one's action, thought and experience to dissolve them into The Silence within ... to dissolve all the activities in all the dominions of one's existence ... to dissolve the senses, mind as well as the intellect to The Absolute that everything IS ...

Yadaa panchaavatishThante gnyaanaani manasaa saha |
Buddhishcha na vicheshTate taam aahuh paramaam gatim ||

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------------------------
Meditation is a process of emptying the mind and have an access to self, which remains normally buried under the deluge of thoughts in our mind....at any time.... too many instructions and multi-method approach could make it make the mind more heavy....and be counter productive..... In fact, method should be as simple as possible for a good meditation......

Sushil Jain
----------------------------------------------------------
He who is treading on two boats is forever commiting mistakes - this is a saying....
HINDI
kahaavat hai ki do naavonpar savaar honaa sadaiv haani karataa hai.
savinay,
sadhak.

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-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Dear Aditi ,
I think the concept of multiple methods of meditation could be harmful, or could be counter productive, that which you state could be a blanket statement, for general protection.
It is wise to seek guidance when one wishes to embark upon the path of meditation, because it is possible to meet all the inner demons that maybe released from within, not a problem if you have support and guidance, with knowledge nothing can phase you.
One of the reason mantra meditation is highly favoured be it in silence, suppressed, or out loud, is it acts like a divine ground, bathed as it were by Divine Light. See the words of Swamiji below:
Glories of Chanting the Lord's Name - 1 (recent post as per Sadhaka15 Jan):
One, the Divine Name is "maansik" japa, one is "upaanshu" japa, one is "saadhaaran japa" and one is "sankirtan" . "Maansik" japa is that in which the Divine Name is chanted silently within the mind, where neither the throat, the tongue or the lips move. "Upaanshu" japa is that in which the mouth is closed, but with the throat and tongue the japa is taking place, and it cannot be heard by the ears. "Saadhaaran" japa is that in which the ears can hear and others can also hear. "Sankirtan" is that in which with musical notes and melody in a loud voice and tone, one chants the Divine Name. Besides the Divine Name, one may also sing about the Lord's divine sports, His qualities, His power and majesty etc. In all of this, the chanting of the Divine Name is the easiest and best of all.

The Christian meditators favour the silent meditation repeating within, Maranatha (Lord cometh), same reasons, to act as a safe haven.

I personally favour a gently Pranayama as my disciplined controlled method, I am a T'ai Chi C'huan instructor, T'ai Chi is correctly described as a moving meditation, and the Ch'i Kung aspect gives great inner Chi (prana) movement, can be most dangerous, if mixed with any Energy Meditation but passive Meditation fully focused in the Name of The Beloved will not cause harm.
I do know what I am talking about, if you wish any further information, the respected Moderator will no doubt pass on any questions to me.
Finally be most careful upon any method you wish to adopt.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
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There are some 120 methods of meditation but none will work unless you yourself are ready for the spiritual experience. So one must prepare oneself through sewa, satsang, kriyas etc. for the path is like a razor's edge. It is all in the mind.

Hari Shanker Deo

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which spiritual discourse?

gaurav mittal
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Hello fellow learners,

Aditi's question is important in the present set up. We suffer from a multi faith system. Each person seems yo have a God of his own. I know a family in which father is a devotee of some Baaba because that Baaba got him out of trouble when the bridge constructed by this man collapsed even att he click of the scissors by the minister in inauguration. His wife is an ardent follower of some Bhagavan who saved her when she cheated more than a thousand out of 100 crores in the name of some circulation scheme. Believing in some figure as the one who pulls one out of trouble and in gratitude give that figure some money is not bhakti, though it may be devotion.

Mediatation is not BHAKTI, if by meditation is just sitting at one place physically and trying to think of or utter a few words. Meditation becomes Bhakti when one is able to realize that Paramaatma is both saakaara and saguna and at the same time Niraakaara and Nirguna.

In the Saakaara and Saguna mode IT should be 'seen' in every being of the creation (as one sees parent in the child). In the Nirguna mode he should be meditated as NOTHING. Yes, concentrating or contemplating on nothing is the ultimate success. It can and has to be obtained by the well neigh impossible process of eliminating (Neti = Na + Iti). But an easier way is to conclude and convince oneself that because it has every Guna and Aakaara, it can not have any shape or quality.

In between these two, any finite number of attributes or shapes (>0) lead you away from Paramaatma because you are trying to fit IT in a finite shape or volume.

I recommend one to read Tarka and Yoga Vaasishta in combination.
Krishna Samudrala
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Dear Gita-Member, Mr. Aditi Barin

It is because when you are meditation (of different methods)
your mind still has physical thoughts. It really does not make
a difference whether you do meditation or not. When you are
meditation, you think you are supposed to achieve your goals
but you don't. You have to "transform your thoughts"
such that all of your physical-thoughts are replaced by non-
physical-thoughts (source/divine/higher power/god) in 6-9
months. All other methods will mix you up because none of
them will give results you looking for (see above) and they
become harmful. If goal I mentioned here are not your goals
then what are your goals?

Best of luck. Bye!

Notesh Otes

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please elaborate ,not clear how two or multimethods are can be
practiced in spritual discourses are related

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