Monday, November 29, 2010

[gita-talk] May Dharma Prevail, May Adharma be Destroyed - Please Enlighten !

 

dear sadhaks

om ganeshaya namah

May Dharma Prevail, May Adharma be Destroyed - Please Enlighten !

dharma ki jai ho , adharma ka nash ho

please engliten the world

regards

kalrav pande

-----------------------------------------

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Sunday, November 28, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: Turning away from the World - Please share what is truly meant by that?

 

From Daily Sadhaka message - s
Memory (recollection, knowledge) of the Self is awakened (gained) by the Lord's
grace. Grace takes place by turning towards God i.e., by having an inclination
for Him; and turning towards God happens by turning away from the world. (SS
18/73)

turning towards God happens by turning away from the world.

When the righteous people turn away from the world, the world become the hell. I
think, God asks us to serve the People and do the good things for the world. Do
not turn away from world. Watch and Act seriously in this world, that is also a
pious act of Turning Towards God.

I like to read more and more, which really shows light to move.

Prathiba

------------------------------------------------------

Dear Friends,
I think Pratibha wants to use the words attachment and detachment,attached to the world and detached from the world...
Yogesh Lajmi,
--------------------------------------------------

Pranaams

You MUST turn away (disconnect) from the world in ALL THE CASES, if your aim is Realisation.There is no way you can skip that. The verses pointed out by you, if you go deeper into them, will prove to you this fact. REMEMBER: You cant , in no circumstance, remain connected with "world" in any YOGA. If every one is God, then where is world to talk about? Where is the Q of "loving" the world. We are at world's the best Satsanga forum...on this subject, if Mr Krishna cares to scroll through past threads , he will find lot of guidance and tips for him to continue studying basics of Gita etc and move towards truth. Although his message reads great, but it is not giving correct flavour and is more out of distress than out of careful study of scriptures.

Amit Shrivastava
------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

The message of Mr Krishna , though it has a smooth reading , but actually contains a lot of things which can not be said to be true. For example:

I saw this post sometime back. I am distressed at the misinterpretation given by the so called sanyasis and the resultant misunderstanding that got rooted in our minds.

Your Statement :

What do you, Pratibha, mean by turning away from the world? No one can turn away from the world for a second as he/she/it is a part of the world.

Answer:

A Jeeva actually is not part of the World AT ALL. This is the first thing Lord Krishna taught in Gita...Discriminate between 'body' (part of world) and 'soul' (part of God ). Hence your statement is totally incorrect on FACT itself.

Your Statement :

If you turn away from this world, are you not turning, therefore, away from God too.

Answer:

First UNDERSTAND and RE-VISIT as to what do you mean by "turning away from world" ! A lot of sadhaks , including Miraji Dass and myself have given precise "form" of disconnection. Mull over the responses to acquire grip on the subject. Your interpretation of "turning away from world" is not interpretation of Scriptures , Saints of Sanatan Dharma and even of any genuine student of Gita .

Your Statement:

The real seeker, achiever and Yogi does not turn away from the world. Rather he should be able to find the God in every bit of this world.

Answer:

Right ! But can you let us know as to how this "finding" is done, and what is end result of that ...Love for 'God' ONLY or Love for 'World' in addition, or simultaneously with God viz for both?

Your Statement:

SARVA BHOOTASTAM AATMAANI, SARVA BHOOTAANI CA AATMANI EEKSHATE YOGA YUKTA AATMAA SARVATRA SAMA DARSINAH 6.29, GITA

SAMAM PASYAMTI SARVATRA SAMAVASTHITAM EESVARAM NA HI NAHTU AATMANAA AATMAANAM TATO YAAMTI PARAAMA GATIM 13.20

Answer

Where does these verse talk about 'world' ? They are referring here to 'sentient' not 'inert' ! Verses referred here talk about "bhootah" / "atmaa" ( Jeevas) not about Jagat (world) !!! Hence example not exactly applicable to topic. Jeeva is different than Jagat ! Read again opening verses of Chapter 2 , as Lord Krishna starts preaching Gita. Read them again and again till they sink into your bones. You need to use VIVEKA there ...you need to discriminate !

Your Statement

and at scores of other places, the Lord quelled the superstition that one has to reject this world to turn to God.

Answer:

Incorrect ! Refer my notes above.

Your Statement:

Advaita may preach Jaganmithya; I do not agree with it; and even if you go by such pseudo truths, CAN YOU TURN AWAY FROM NONEXISTING THINGS.

Answer:

You will agree as soon as you go into detail and dive deep into verses of Gita. Your conclusion, typed in bold letters, is even more wrong as well as funny and naïve. Where is the Q of turning away "from non existent things" ? Ha...Ha !! Who can 'connect' or 'disconnect' with a thing WHICH DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL. Hence you can only "accept" (assume falsely) or "reject" ( correct falsely made acceptance) !! "Pseudo Truth" ...Ha! Truth is Truth and that is in itself complete ! Where is scope in Truth of getting "Pseudo" or "non- pseudo" ?

Your Statement

"IF YOU LOVE THIS WORLD, IT DOES NO WAY IMPLY THAT YOU LOVE GOD ANY LESS. lOVING THE WORLD IS LOVING GOD. MAADHAVA SEVA CONSISTS OF SARVA PRAANI SEVA"

Answer:

Wrong ! When you love God , you establish mine-ness with Him , first. Love is outcome of "mine-ness" ! Here you CAN NOT love the world because you MUST renounce "mine-ness" with it compulsorily (Doosaro Na Koi) ! Moreover , you agreed that world is non-existent, how can you love something which does not exist at all? Can you ?...no .. Not at all !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram
If you look through out the Gita, then there is only one point - To turn towards God (Paramatma) i.e. "sanmukh hona" i.e. the same as to turn away from the world "vimukh hona". Turning towards God and turning away from the world happen simultaneous. One way to turn away from world is accepting "I belong to only God. I do not belong to anyone else" Another way of turning away from the world is accepting "I am not the body, the body is not mine and it is not for me." This body and this world are constantly perishing whereas "Self" remains at all times. I am THAT.
Success of Human birth is only on realizing our eternal union with God (turning towards God) and disunion with the world (turning away from the world).
Meera Das, Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------------
Radhey ! Radhey !!

Referring to Mr Krishna's message, let me state that there is hardly need to feel "distressed" vis a vis Satsanga contributions or even regarding the appearance of world to individual minds/jeevas. We are sadhaks and should see to it that we do not get distressed. In your message there is rather a flavour that what you have stated is the ONLY way of conduct. You have just quoted a verse or two about Bhakti Yoga. But , Bhakti is NOT the only way...there is Karma Yoga too, there is Jnana Yoga too. It is dangerous to talk loosely about VASUDEV SARVAM and thereby resist and continue calling world to be me/mine. If something belongs to Lord ...how you can call that as MINE? How you can CONSUME it (Bhog) for yourSELF? No...the arguments not correct to justify the need for DISCONNECTION in all cases. These are only arguments emanating out of minds and intellects, and frankly when tested from conscience, and deep thinking...they prove to be futile !

Radhey ! Radhey !!

Nisha Chatterji
-------------------------------------------------------

Raam !

The message of Krishna S is not in fact a correct approach. God is not something who will reveal by FINDING HIM in each and every matter and activity. You cant love any matter or activity (World/Body) as matter or activity...you can ONLY love God prevalent in them. When you do so, you have disconnected from world. He should know "SVAROOP" of disconnection first, understand that and then if need be (which need will hardly be there) INSIST so vehemently in favour of his views. In no case, he should let himself get distressed ! He should understand himself and not bother as to how world thinks. That is way forward.

Kailash Verma

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Simply speaking - turning away from world means diassociation from the world.
Swamiji and Gita 3/42-43 clearly state that a man can know the world by
disassociatig himself from it, and he can know the Lord by identifying himself
with the Lord. For an aspirant it is indispensable to root out the duel between
mundane desires (world) and spiritual ones (God, Truth). While having mundane
desires (worldly nature), an aspirant cannot even resolve towards spirituality
(turn towards Truth, God). He simply cannot make spiritual progress. The Self
being a part of that Supreme Consciousness (God, Paramatma) has indentity with
only THAT. This identity with Paramatma can be realized only when the Self
totally renounces Its affinity for the insentient (Matter, Body, World).

Having inclination for the world (turning towards the world, having affinity for
the world), leads to desires. He wants to satisfy this desire by enjoying
worldly pleasures. But this desire can never be satisfied by worldly objects.
So turning away from the world means discarding these desires, disassociating
himself from the world) It really means becoming established in the Self
(Spirit, Atma) by renouncing affinity with the world (turning away for it).

Meera Das, Ram Ram

-----------------------------------------

Hari Om

A very good Q - What is "form" (svaroop) of "turning away/disconnection" vis a
vis the world. It rightly presumes "viyog" (disconnection) with world is
essential / key not "sanyog" (connection) ! Being 'dukhalayam' (abode of sorrow)
and temporary (ashashwatham) ...the "world" can not impart "absolute" pleasure
to you ...it simply CAN NOT ! Any arguments by considering it "VASUDEV" must
eliminate "me/mine" emotion in you towards "this form of Vasudev" !

SANTA MIL SALLA KARI, DIVI JAGAT NE POOTH ! PEECHHE DEKHA JAVATA TO PAHLE HI
BAITHO ROOTH !!

Some Saints accumulated and deliberated ...and concluded to "turn their backs
towards the world" ! Their logic was : Why not to leave that thing TODAY (now)
itself, which thing will CERTAINLY leave you TOMORROW (in future) ??

VIYOG / Disconnection what does it actually mean ? It does NOT mean becoming
sadhu or going to some cave or to Himalayas or renouncing family or your duties
or your home or your relatives....NOT AT ALL !!!

"Actually" it means desirelessness (vihaay kaaman sarvaan ) / egolessness
(nirahankaar) / minelessness ( nirmam) ...Gita 2/71 !!!
Effectively it means removal of "me-ness" and "mine-ness" with reference to body
and world (nature/inert/prakruti). when you "accept" - I am not body / I do
nothing (Jnana Yoga- renouncing doership ) ; or I am God's, Only God is mine,
nothing else is mine (Bhakti Yoga- renouncing mamata - mineness from world and
establishing mineness with God) ; or I am Yogi (sevak) , I don't need to do
anything for mySELF (Karma Yoga- renouncing enjoyership/ fruits of karma )
...you have "withdrawn" or turned away from "world" !!! Thus, in other words...
"Withdrawal from world" means CHANGE of EGO (Bhakti Yoga) ; or ELIMINATION of
EGO (Jnana Yoga) ; or PURIFICATION of EGO (Karma Yoga) ! Still in other
words...it is tyaag (renunciation) of mamata (Bhakti Yoga) ; or tyaag of
doership (Jnana yoga) ; or tyaag of enjoyer/suffership (Karma yoga) !!!

All 3 primary yogas of Gita viz Bhakti Yoga ( NIRMAM- minelessness) ; Jnana Yoga
( NIRAHANKAAR- egolessness) and Karma Yoga ( NISHKAAM - desirelessness) take you
to that state !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste !

Without going in too deeply, consider this; there is a Jnani walking along
detached from the world, in front of him an old lady trips and falls to the
ground, does he glide on by head in heaven as it were, or does he stop and go to
her aid, heart full of compassion, see if she is hurt, make sure she gets
medical attention if needed?
Or a Bhakti singing along the pavement, Hari Krishna... in waves of bliss, in
the same situation, what does he do? Dance on by, or feel compassion and help?
Did Swamiji retire into a cave in the mountains? No he served sadhaks, virtually
until the time he departed his body!

Swamiji: It is essential to do selfless work for the benefit of others, to rise
above worldly matters; because it is only due to sentiments of doing things for
your own self that one is trapped in bondage in this world. Therefore to get
rid of the inner impulse to act and to get rid of the present attachment to
action, it is useful to work. "Aaruruksormuneryogam karma kaaranamuchyate."
(Gita 6:3)

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
------------------------------------------------

Hello Pratibha and fellow learners,

I saw this post sometime back. I am distressed at the misinterpretation given by
the so called sanyasis and the resultant misunderstanding that got rooted in our
minds.

What do you, Pratibha, mean by turning away from the world? No one can turn away
from the world for a second as he/she/it is a part of the world. The whole world
(you perhaps mean Prakriti or creation) is a minuscule part of Parama Atma
(God?). If you turn away from this world, are you not turning, therefore, away
from God too. The real seeker, achiever and Yogi does not turn away from the
world. Rather he should be able to find the God in every bit of this world.
SARVA BHOOTASTAM AATMAANI, SARVA BHOOTAANI CA AATMANI EEKSHATE YOGA YUKTA AATMAA
SARVATRA SAMA DARSINAH 6.29, GITA

SAMAM PASYAMTI SARVATRA SAMAVASTHITAM EESVARAM NA HI NAHTU AATMANAA AATMAANAM
TATO YAAMTI PARAAMA GATIM 13.20

and at scores of other places, the Lord quelled the superstition that one has to
reject this world to turn to God. Advaita may preach Jaganmithya; I do not agree
with it; and even if you go by such pseudo truths, CAN YOU TURN AWAY FROM
NONEXISTING THINGS.

Finally, Pratibha, I hope you have seen the Old musical movie "The Sound of
Music". It is about a nun in a convent, who falls in love with a widower. The
nun Maria feels bad and sinful about it. The Mother Superior of the convent
consoles her with the words, "If you love this man, my child, it does not mean
you love God less". I have seen the movie in my youth about 45 years back. I
will never forget the precious message in them. Now, I tell You Pratibha

"IF YOU LOVE THIS WORLD, IT DOES NO WAY IMPLY THAT YOU LOVE GOD ANY LESS. lOVING
THE WORLD IS LOVING GOD. MAADHAVA SEVA CONSISTS OF SARVA PRAANI SEVA"

God Bless you
Krishna Samudrala

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Shri Naga Narayana,
Perception, is usually very subjective,and
usually a human being perceives
what he wants to... !
Perception can and mostly does deceive
too,like a mirage can do...
Rising above perception and seeking the
TRUTH,therefore,to my thinking is more worth one's while...perception can be
even dangerous...
Or,do you mean Intuition...?
One can develop one's Intuition to a very
great extent,as per the great Swami Vivekananda,by simply listening to our
"inner voice"...the more one listens to it the more it will prompt...but
unfortunately,the "educated" human believes in logic/reason/rationale etc.,
more,and does not listen to his inner voice...and over a period of time our
inner voice stops telling us anything at all...thus very sadly, we kill our
Intuitive Powers ourselves... !
I have demonstrated the power of intuition
to many in my family and friends
and how it can help them,on several occasions,and albeit grudgingly at first,
they now rely on Intuition more and more ...
Try it out and experience it for yourself
and then pl. inform the group...
With the very best wishes,
Yogesh Lajmi.
GOOD LUCK !

-------------------------------------------------

Turning away from world ... turning toward God ...

It all depends on what we define by the word "world" as.

If you mean the physical universe by "world" ... there is no meaning turning
away from that as everything is established within that. But, the very universe
is established within something that transcends all its boundaries at both
macroscopic as well as microscopic ends. Man transcending the universe is of no
consequence to me - (1) can we really? (2) if so, what can we mean by that?? (3)
even if we can, so what??? we would end up in another!

If you mean by "world" as the perceived images of the physical world to which we
are vested in all our might ... that is of interest to me.

Can we turn away from it? YES! Since we author the very world in this sense, we
are authorized to dismiss the same as well.

Why should we turn away from it?? YES!! Because it is the belief we have
nurtured regarding this world that constantly mislead us even in matters
regarding the so-called physical world ... more importantly, it misleads us
utterly regarding our appreciation of our very existence.

Is turning away from this world mean the same as turning toward God??? YES!!! It
is this world that is the cataract blurring our vision and distorting all the
images that we perceive about the world as well as ourselves. The thinner this
opaque wall becomes, clearer it becomes what the physical world is to us as well
as what we truly are. The clarity of appreciation of THE LIFE as is within as
well as around is TURNING TOWARD GOD.

But, please keep in mind NEVER to get confused between the world perceived
within with the world around ... the seeking itself may become more misleading
than the very world ...

Na karmaNaam anaarambhaan naishkarmyam purusho'shnute |
Na cha sanyasanaadeva siddhim samadhigacchhati ||

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------------------

Hari Om.

Turning away from world does not mean turning away from the physical world in
which we live; but from the psychological baggage we carry inside our mind of
this world.

When the self becomes aware that He is the pure Atman, and not this body or mind
or intellect etc, He realises that He is just a witness, a sakshi to whatever he
(say Janardan in my case) or his body, mind etc are doing. Then, Janardan is
just an actor in the drama that is this world, and this actor has to merely
follow faithfully whatever part the Director (God) has assigned for him. Just as
the actor does not become rich by playing the part of a king or poor by playing
a beggar, so also the Atman just observes and witnesses whatever is happening
and keeps aloof from the drama that is this world.

In that sense, we can turn to God when we turn away from the world, which is
nothing but the stage of drama that is going on.

Thanks and regards,

Janardana N Mamtora

IMPOSSIBLE IS NOT A FACT;
IT IS JUST AN OPINION!

IMPOSSIBLE MERELY SAYS: "I M POSSIBLE."

----------------------------------------------------

It is my request to all aspirants that whatever they are saying or listening, if
Gita 7/19 is accepted as Truth, then there is neither a need to have
disinclination (vimukh) for the world i.e. turning away from the world, nor is
there a need to turn towards God, or have an inclination towards God (sanmukh)
When besides God there was never anything else, there isn't, and there never can
be then who will we turn away from, and who will we turn to? This is what is
the truth.
So be it,
Humbly
Sadhak

============================================================

Shree Hari Ram Ram

The translation of Swamiji's message is more as follows -

Memory (recollection, knowledge) of the Self is awakened (gained) by the Lord's
grace, when an aspirant has an inclination for the Lord. Lord continuously
showers his Grace on all beings, but a man realizes His grace, when he has an
inclination for the Lord. That is, that grace takes place when he has a
disinclination for the world; i.e. by having an inclination for the Lord. (SS
18/73)

Hope this may reduce some of the questions and doubts. Turning towards and away
is misleading in the translation of Swamiji's message.

Meera Das, Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka.
Turning away means stay away from materialism and turning towards God. We should
act in the name of the Lord, for the welfare of others, and not get attached to
the fruits of action.

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
" Tasmad asaktah satatam,
Karyam karma samacara,
Asakto hy acaran karma,
Param apnoti purushah. "
( Gitaji, 3,19)
Which means,
'Perform your actions without any attachment to the fruits of action. We must
act as our duty
When we act without attachment,we attain Him.'
Devotional service is the key to reach Him.
Thank You.
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

----------------------------------------------------------
We do not know God, we can only believe in Him (accept Him), therefore that
which we do not know we cannot turn towards them. Therefore what is turning
towards God? Becoming free from infatuation with this world, (no living being
cannot leave the world, because the body is a part, a limb of the world and is
inseparable from the world). It is therefore only the Lord that we have to turn
towards. Gita and Sadhak Sanjivani talk about this freedom from infatuation,
because Lord is never not attained.
So be it, Most Humbly,
Sadhak

------------------------------------

The idea that by turning away from the World one turns towards God is
misleading and has been shown to be foolish in Gita by Lord ShriKrishna. My
understanding of what Krisna says in Gita is that the entire World and
beyond is nothing but God: everything in this Universe and beyond exists in
God and God exists in everything, even the infinitsimal ones, in this
Universe and beyond. Lord Krishna adises us that those human beings who
realizes this lives an unified existence with God and does not percieve
anything in this Universe as anything different from God and him/ her and
therefore remain in an ego-less state. So, where is the question of turning
away from the World and turning towards God as a result. No ione can turn
away from the World of from God. What happens is that most people are unable
to live amidst Worldly affairs without being perturbed by the events that
take place in the World. The trick is to be able to live in and amidst all
worldly affairs without and desire for particular consequences of one's own
actions and therefore without being induced to feeling of happiness and
sadness from achieving or failing to achieve desires. An ego-less,
desire-free humam being is the most competent to enjoy the entire World with
the power of Smadarshan (equanimity).
True, the ignorant perceives that sensual pleasures and pains are what the
World is all about and one needs to turn away from these pleasuers and pains
takes place through turning towards God. But the person who knows that God
exists everywhere including in the sensual pleasures and pain and that God
Himself is indifferent to such pleasures and pains, himself/ herself becomes
indifferent to sensual pleasures and pains and becomes God-like or God. God
is ealised in this World and not by turning away from the World. No one can
turn away from the World but some can become completely bereft of individual
ego, of any kind of desire and of any feeling of sadness or happiness
arising out of anything that may happen in this World.
Basudeb Sen
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaak Pratbha Ji,
Namaskar!

Your view about turning away from the world is very correct! World is a portion
of GOD only. When you have into world, you should never go away from it! You
should be in it actively but at the same time, feel you are away from it!

You are bound to perform KARTAV KARMAS for the welfare of the world society. If
you want to go towards GOD then you have to remove KARTAPAN FROM YOUR PERFORMED
ACTIONS! This is the secret Lord Krishna has mentioned in B-Gita in number
verses. You can refer each and get benefited!

Regards!

Kuldeep Kaul

-----------------------------------------------------

Madam,
There are no two worlds, this world and God's world. There is only one world.
You are treating this world as yours and operate by complaining, blaming,
feeling guilty so as to set the things right.
Now when you treat this world as God's world, you operate as participant in the
whole scheme without fretting about the negativities. This shift causes a
radical change in the mind.
Y V Chawla

------------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Seeking REAL change beyond YES-MANship

 

Dear Sirs,
It appears that a large number of members in this group,believe
only in yes-manship...and quoting "the scriptures"...but do not mull over the
Universal real-life problems/situations faced by humanity...and whether how
these scriptures of old can truly help shape the modern life style in our
country,not only in the cities,but also in the villages...how values have
changed
to mainly materialistic ones,how and why people are becoming more and more
selfish and greedy,how inspite of the size of the "cake" remaining the same, the
claimants to a larger piece of it are increasing manifold,day by day...
Isn't it important that our entire value-system needs a
revamp...the old and ancient value-systems are no longer valid or acceptible
...or even relevant...
It is suggested that the group address these burning issues,of
confused adolescents,of today...growing up like a ship without a rudder,or even
sometimes,a sail... ! ?
What our society needs badly,is a social revolution and a
re-assessment of our old value-systems in life...and wherever necessary,a change
needs to be ushered-in...that is exactly where members need to concentrate
upon,by giving practical and meaningful suggestions,and not simply repeating and
paraphrasing the scriptures of the old...! !
I am looking forward to the response of the highly intellectual
members of our society...
With best wishes,
Yogesh Lajmi.
--------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sirs,
Honourable Sadhak Yogesh Lajmi 's suggestion is very timely and highly important.
It is important to address burning issues such as " Confused adolecents of today"...etc.too.
We need to come down to our daily practical life.
Sadhak Govind

---------------------------------------------------------

Namaste...
My dandavat pranams to all in this forum.
I have the read the question by Yogesh L, and then read over a few responses. I stopped after reading the response by Vyasa N.B. Although I have the highest regard for the participation of all persons in the forum, I am puzzled by Vyas prabhu's statement, You are in the world's the best Satsanga
Forum. Better make full use of it by asking good Qs , rather than delivering
verdicts !!"
Truly, I am perceiveing that Vyasa prabhu has not understood the depth or sincerity of the question. I am just returning from pilgrimage to India, three days ago....having spent time in Vrndavan and Govardhan.....and it is very fresh in my mind that even the persons who do not attend any particular temple/math still have love and affection for Bhagavan, still have a mood of devotion.Everyone is saying, "Radhe, Radhe.....or Haribol (chant the names of God). Here in America, this is not the case. The samskaras in the heart are nonexistent, as far as even basic love and affection....what to speak of many of the persons being able to grasp what it is to have a mood of love toward Bhagavan/Radha Krsna, Sita Rama, etc.
The basic problem that needs to be addressed is how, for each and every one of us, to go out, in a selfish, nonjudgmental way, and spend time with the common person.....finding ways to give them a desire to begin the process of chanting the holy Name of the Lord. Even if they want to pursue chanting the Rosary, or a Name of God which is not the one which you or I find prominent. Chanting the Names of God is the recommended process in this age for cleansing the dirt from the heart, and gradually becoming free from ego. I see that the question raised is suggesting more practical, one-on-one participation with persons who need to be inspired by example of sadhaks selflessly distributing food, giving literatures about devotional life, having street harinam parties, etc. These activities are common in Indian culture, but not here.....apart from a few groups that have taken up the calling. By making friends with the persons who truly have no samskara in their heart to even acknowledge what is upright, honest, moral and religious behavior, gradually the hearts will be inspired to chant, and then a true revolution will occur. A devotee of the Lord is naturally a friend to all....the friendship means more than giving a meal....but giving a meal is a way to introduce oneself and begin a friendship. A true friend helps others to remember their relationship with the Supreme. And when the bhoga is offered to the Lord, the presentation of giving spritualized food (prasadam) becomes more than simply offering "food". It becomes an act of devotion for the recipient to honor that prasadam, hence their spiritual life beginning.
I find Yogesh's question very, very pertinent, and of the nature of wanting to see a revolution in the hearts of the spiritually poor, misguided souls of this age. He is pushing....let us not simply be satisfied that WE (those of us who have computers, and feel knowledgable enough to participate in this forum) have some association, but what of those who have no grasp of any sadhu sanga? How to reach them? How to quell the tide of sinful life,and ruthless, deceitful tendencies in society?

Sincerely,
Maha Laksmi Dasi
----------------------------------------------------------

I agree with the concerns raised by the honourable sadhaka in this message. It is not only many of the Indians feel that our current generations are becoming more and more greedy and materialistic but the foriegners visiting our country are feeling the same. One French guy who met me today said he visited India last year and was very disappointed to see India and Indians going downhill in terms of morality and value system. In our rush to become a rich and developed country we are losing our core values for which we were respected earlier by the west and now made fun of when they see many Indians eating beef etc. I understand that all of us as Indians are going through a very confusing period . Some of us want to experiment everything what west has to offer to look part of them. For that we fight with our core values which have been taught/ expected. Majority of people to get ahead in the race are giving up many values. Some after years of struggle have found no peace and happiness in the materialistic world are going back to the scriptures to find answers. I agree just going through these scriptures without learning anything for your day to day life is a waste of time.The shalokas need to be read and understood to help solve our real life dilemmas and help us explain why path a is better than path b. I feel that many of the Indian Hindus are willing to experiment ideas which may not match with their value system because we have never been given an answer to the question "why". We have just been told to follow without asking too many questions as to why we do certain things like fasting on certain days.eat this and not that etc. When kids get choices when they grow up they want to experiment and learn new ways of living. If they don't know why Hindus do what they have been taught as a child, they r prone to start experimenting with what rest of the world has to offer.

charu Hurria
-----------------------------------------------

Humbly Pranam to All Sadhakas
Specially I Pay My Special Thanks To DUBEJI I think so God has Gifted us so many Wise and inteligent persons so that could remove the LAPSES in the Devine devotional Path/ Finally Iwould like to close the chapter retrieving all of yours devine saying that -There is not more greater devine action than to make somebody to lead a DEVOTINAL PATH/Thanking all of you Again
Bowing to Lord and his holy Sadhakas
BASUDEV

----------------------------------------------------------

Honourable Sadhaka

Vasudev Sarvam

Now a days the study of our religious scripture is negligible and the verdict
taken without studying the Scripture is Comon place.But the fault is not limited
to new generation only, It Deeply Lies on those too ', who claim themselves as
PREACHER. To ask any difficult question to a Preacher is to be Proven ownself as
protestor of religion(NASTIK)/and Expect the answer of any difficult question is
ARANYARODAN(Weeping in the Forest) when as the Scripturs are the subject matter
of Mistrious Things(RAHASYA).Although SETHJI BHAIJI and Swami RAMSUKHDAS JI
MAHARAJ had contributed unlimitedly and we should always bow to their Lotus
Feet, even though it is not repayable their Loan to us.

Bowing Adorantly to All Sadhkas

BASUDEV

------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

I do understand the concern (which was not very clear from the question) raised
by Respected YogeshJi. The following news clips do show some efforts in bringing
this knowledge to various schools/colleges although it is not without
controversies raised by non-hindu groups as they are considering BhagavadGita as
a "hindu textbook" instead of a "text book for the mankinds".

-------------------------
Bhopal : Chief Minister Shivraj Singh Chouhan had declared last week that his
government was contemplating introducing the Gita in the school curriculum as
"its study is necessary for moral education".
-------------------------
Bangalore/Chitradurga: A religious organisation is on a mission to spread
“humanitarian values” by teaching Bhagavad Gita to schoolchildren across the
State. The Education Department, while not acknowledging this as one of its own
programmes, is nevertheless playing an active role in ensuring that there are no
encumbrances on the way.
-------------------------
India’s favourite spiritual book, The Bhagavad Gita, has made a dramatic
impact at Harvard, Wharton and other business schools with its universal message
of “concentration, consistency, and cooperation”. In a nutshell: “You
can’t succeed in business (or war) unless you develop the intellect, which
controls the mind and body.”
------------------------
An American university has made study of Gita compulsory for all its students by
including it in its “core course.” The Seton Hall University has taken this
decision observing the importance of Gita in life. University administration
says that through the wisdom of Gita, students can better understand and cope
with the complexities of life and be better prepared to face all the life’s
challenges.
-------------------------

If you want to learn how various principles of BhagavadGita can be implemented
and be seen in villages/society, you can see the various experiments conducted
by Shri Pandurang Shaastri AthvaleJi through his "Swadhyaaya Pariwaar".

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

================================

Wonderful testing of Sadaks by Yogesh. We must all thank him and others who
raised seemingly odd/provoking questions time and again. Impact of experiencial
knowledge can only be verified this way.

Experiential knowledge is the Wisdom or Truth. It is all one, scriptures or no
scriptures. Scriptures or guides only help one in persuit of truth. Process
becomes easier and quicker. Finally, it is upto an individual to experiment,
experience and build the required conviction for reaching our ultimate goal of
lfie...knowing the larger picture/game..

Yogesh, we all appreciate your concerns about what all is happening in the
world. We all are on your side.
So many organizations and individuals are doing so much in that direction. Even
from within this group many may be doing a lot in their own way. By just being
on this group also helps them to remain at higher conciousness levels, and not
be problems for others. One needs to be peaceful to be able to sense that. The
world is a reflection of our own inside condition. If we feel for the world and
wish to change it, all that we need to do is make our inner peaceful....

Wonderful thing is "Our helping others, our compassion for others, our right
conduct and values, etc. are all to make us happy and we should do this to be
truely-selfish and truely-greedy". It is done for our own growth...to achieve
the ultimate goal.....And this is just one of the several ways of getting
there.....

Others may may get inspired and benefit but actually that is not the real
goal.... It only appears like that....
Best wishes

Sushil Jain
-------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Let not criticism be our habit. Look how beautifully sadhaks responded to
criticism of Scriptures and criticism of this Divine GT Forum ! It is not that
this Forum does not pick Qs relating to day to day life. Some of the responses
by sadhaks on Child Management must be eye opener for the questioner. It is not
that principles in Scriptures are not relevant today, however modern we may
claim ourselves to be . NOTICE famous Gita verse where Lord says : DHARMA
SANSHTHAPANARTHAY , SAMBHAVAAMI YUGE YUGE !! What does that imply? Indeed, the
timelessness of our Holy Scriptures. To re-inforce what is stated in the
Scriptures...God takes 'avataar' in every era. We should 'actually' and
'sincerely' read Scriptures ourselves before we pass one line judgement that
they are irrelevant and outdated. We should 'actually' and 'sincerely'
go through old threads of GT Forum, before we pass one line verdict that here
only "yes-man ship of Scriptures is practiced" !! How childish are these
verdicts ?

To conclude, WE MUST CHANGE. As Sadhak Lahiri said: Start with yourself. As
Sadhak Sushil Jain said: The role of mind should change from 'master' to a
'slave' !!

I hope Sadhak Yogesh is fairly clear now as to the Scriptures, Satsanga, Sadhaks
and this Divine Forum ...GT Group. You are in the world's the best Satsanga
Forum. Better make full use of it by asking good Qs , rather than delivering
verdicts !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------

Namaste

I agree with Sushilji. It is minds that have to change. Let Scriptures remain as
they are. It is "inner" change , not outer. Yes...START WITH YOURSELF , as
stated by RP Lahiri. Right are the observations of Vyas NB that be a YES MAN to
all ! This is grandeur of this Forum. We all are proud to be part of this Forum.
Such a variety, such depth, such clarity of goal..Pranaams to all sadhaks.
Pranaams to Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

Kailash Verma

------------------------------------------------------

Dear Friends,
Thank you for your many varied responses...
You have all just helped me prove my point...!
Most replies are pure and simple,I'm sorry to say...simply
"pontifications",
borrowed from the writings from different books/commentaries ?
I am truly quite amazed to see that there is not a single
reply which is based on original thinking...
Also, indulging in semantics cannot be a reply to the
questions/observations...
Yesmanship coupled with "nit-picking" seems to have
triumphed once again... !
Some replies seem to be from people who have been
"stung-to-the-quick"...
I can also see the classic symptoms of all Members
"ganging-up-against-an-
outsider and closing ranks" type of reaction/response...as if to say..."how
dare you..." !
Admittedly,I am new to the group,and...but my experience
over the years has taught
me to expect this very kind of reaction/attitude towards a new
entrant...whichever the group may be...normal animal-kingdom reaction...even
ants from different ant-hills keep out ants from other anthills even if the
species is the same...
I wonder how many of you have read Dr.S.Radhakrishnan's
commentary on the Gita...or for that matter,Lokmanya Tilak's/ Gopal Krishna
Gokhale's,/C.Rajagopalachari's
commentaries/interpretations of the Gita...
I humbly suggest that you all read,if not all,atleast 2 or 3
of these and then comment...
No offence meant,but a frog-in-the-well attitude is
prohibited by the Gita itself... ! !
There are a lot of other commentaries by a few brilliant and
well-read Sanyasis of yore,as well as a few great intellectuals too...
I am also surprised that most of the responders just aren't
bothered to explain the Gita to children beginning from the youngest possible
age-group...none of you seem to have suggested it...others have been "very
clever" by saying ..."why don't I begin with myself" ? and so on...
Hardly any University prescribes the Gita or the
Artha-Shastra by Chanakya...as a text book,except one,in the whole of India,that
is Bharat... !
Why don't you all begin a movement for Unversities to include
the Bhagvat Gita as a Text Book for graduation in Philosophy...and so
on...instead of "holding your own fort"...and "sticking to your guns"...
With best wishes,
Yogesh Lajmi.
GOOD LUCK !
------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Dear Yogesh,

I mentioned in my post you should be specific.

Rather than talk about changing societies attitude to the world view, based upon
the scriptures; try something personally. You have at you finger tips the
greatest reference library in the known history of the world, the web.
I suggest do as I do, a boolean search, e.g. {subject} scriptures ancient India
or Veda (or as is your will) this will take you on a fascinating journey. It
will give you real subjects for discussion to place before this divine forum. It
won't necessarily win you friends, but I tell you this, you will get my
attention without a doubt.
I am sort of rowing my own boat upriver, it seems, nice to have another oarsman.
Any way I will keep rowing.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------------------------
I thinkMr yogesh has no idea of this group
this is not about myths or whatever scrap,
This is about true values of Gitaji and it is not OLD OR NEW,
It is eternal.
So better refresh urself before refreshing values of Gitaji
May god help U
Thanx
Raja

--------------------------------------------------------
Pranaams !

A lot of good responses and a very soothing exhibition of sanity by all sadhaks
in response to questions of Mr Yogesh. CONCLUSION: Do not complain, do not
exhibit needless frustration, do not allege, do not accuse others, do not find
faults....look within. The solution lies in CHANGING YOURSELF......O
Jeeva....not in changing interpretations. DO NOT play in the hands of
minds/intellects. Read yourself the Scriptures.

Amit Shrivastava
-------------------------------------------------------

Namaskar

I think we should conclude deliberations on this thread. enough clarity has been
imparted to the questioner by an astonishing number of sadhaks. We are Sadhaks ,
Yogeshji ! We dont get happy when somebody refers to us as "intellectuals". We
are much above minds/intellects. I agree whole heartedly with Sushilji that IT
IS HIGH TIME THAT MIND/INTELLECT SERVES YOU AS SLAVES RATHER THAN YOU DANCING ON
THE TUNES OF MINDS/INTELLECTS. Stop dancing ! Be responsible for changing
YOURSELF rather than insisting for changes elsewhere. NAACH NA JAANE, AANGAN
TEDHA...this idiom , let us not be symbolical of this idiom.

Jayant M

---------------------------------------------------------
Peace.....!

You are right, Sushil Jain ! All messages in latest post were worth reading.
Actually, all solutions lie in looking within ONLY. Where is the sense in
insisting for outer changes ?Change yourself. Start by Yourself, as Lahiri told.
Else there will be only LECTURE...not "striving". As regards observation of
Yogesh reg : This GT Forum, I am sure if he JUST cares to go through the
previous threads his feeling that this Forum only deals with Scriptures in a Yes
man manner will sink forever. In fact, this Forum has extensively deliberated on
variety of issues, including drug addiction, how to lead household life,
marital problems, surrender, abortions, sins in day to day life, education,
diseases, child management, depression, hopelessness....what not ? How funny
that we pass a judgement without even caring to throw a cursory glance! I cant
think of any important subject/topic not discussed in some way or other in GT
Forum. Rightly...because this Forum we all are proud of being with. Hope Mr
Yogesh will run through past messages before he himself opens and reads
Scriptures and finds out how relevant and required they are in present times.

Audrey Rodrigues

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Yogesh ji:

Namaskaram.
I understand and appreciate your questions, which I also have.
Many of our Hindu members of these yahoo groups also have problems of Hypocrasy
and have ego to the core. If you contradict what they say, we see they get upset
and write
letters with un-parlimentary words bordering on abusive mails.
They talk of Dharma and Sashtra but are materialistic and only Artha and Kaama
talks for them.

Many continue to have the I-me-mine problems and "I am right and I am always
right" attitude.
So, when they will mention about adolescent problems, will never agree that it
happens in their family.
While the value system explained in our Veda - Purana-Ithihasaas are still good
in modern days,
many give wrong interpretations and confuse people or take the message literally
and say it is of no use.
Even today, Karma without attachment and Dharma as explained in Ramayana
and Bhagavat Gita is good applicale in our work and life today.

We need real change in attitude and lifestyle without greed or attachment and
also must not have our expectatiuons beyond reality.

Let us remember that a Yellow rose bush will give only yello roses and not red
andthat too only when it pleases.

Bala N. Aiyer
----------------------------------------------

Radhey ! Radhey !!

Great deliberations ! Sadhak Yogesh..do you still have doubts? Be a YES MAN,
yourSELF for a change !! It is so divine, really, to be a YES MAN ! Try it!
Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj once said for Gita : Read Gita by 'surrendering' to
it !! You understand the Scriptures the best, when you ACCEPT first them to be
wiser than you at least. If you study Gita by the pride of your mind or
intellect...believe me it will become a very intricate riddle for you ! But if
you surrender to it: You get the best of it ! Scriptures are like a mirror
...they appear to you as you are ! Hence, always read Scriptures keeping a
mental disposition that IF YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD ANYTHING ...it is your fault
, it is not fault of Scripture. Start then your search to correct yourself
PRESUMING Scripture is right, how you are not grasping it? Get restess ...Oh !
Where I am wrong? Do reading again and again and do not get satisfied till you
fall in agreement with the same !!! That
will make your reading of Scripture VERY FRUITFUL. Our minds/intellects in
fact
are too biased, uneven and weak to judge the Scriptures.We can't insist on
anything and still understand. Hence be not a critique...be a student ! Be a
disciple and then read them ! Do not even think in terms of changing them/their
interpretations ...think in terms of changing your mind/intellect/thoughts to
fall in line with Scriptures. Believe me, if you take this path, you will
understand them very fast !

Radhey ! Radhey !!

Nisha Chatterji

---------------------------------------------------

It is no surprise what dear Yogesh is going through... Why yes-manship, why
quoting of Scriptures, mull over real-life problems/situations, how values have
changed, old value-system no longer valid, etc..etc....
and the strong urge to change the world just like that.......

All this is normal. All sadhaks do go through this kind of frustration to start
with....
This is a good sign.....means that one is ready and willing to understand/learn
the truth.... But there are no short cuts.

If one really want the answers, one has to work himself/herself to know more
what values are -old, new, universal? One must understand what is written in
scriptures, what is real, what is practical, what is the truth, where lies the
solution, etc.......before drawing conclusions and passing a one sentence
judgement....

One's view of the world will change only when one's "inner situation" changes,
unless one's understanding of truth is complete..... As one understands and gets
near the truth, picture becomes clearer, problems/frustation dissolve, solutions
emerge, the world view changes making journey of life joyful, meaningful,
peaceful, blissful.....

One needs lot of courage in doing this because so many myths are going to burst
in the process, mind's role will change too from master to slave...

Welcome Yogesh to the new world......best wishes

Sushil Jain
--------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Refer below from the questioner's latest post:

"pl. allow me to re-iterate that,I have NOT said,any where, that our scriptures
need a change... However,it's interpretation, though, needs a change,such that
it suits today's young and growing generation's aspirations and ambitions,..."

Ans : Even your this re-iteration is totally devoid of truth in the very
assumptions and basis ! That means you want Scriptures to suit the individual
modern minds ( society) ! As if Scriptures are subject to change too ! As if
Scriptures can be interpreted at will and are such that any one can suit to his
will, aspirations ad desires ! No..they are as eternal as yourSELF are ..they
are as UNCHANGEABLE as are Nature or Prakruti or Purusha or Jeeva or Soul ! You
presume 'interpretation' of a verse of a scripture is subject to change. You
feel the Scriptures did not take into account 'modern times' , modern minds,
modern value systems. You want scriptures to suit them..! Wrong you are in your
very assumptions and in your every assumption. ! Say how to apply wisdom of
Scriptures in modern era....understandable , ask Qs , ... but don't say : Their
interpretations must be changed to suit today's youth ...and never say on top of
that ... To suit growing generation's "aspirations and ambitions" ! You don't
know then as to why at all Scriptures are there ! You don't know what needs to
be change, actually ! You don't know who is to change , actually ! You don't
know who is bondaged ..Scriptures or Jeeva , and if Jeeva , why 'interpretation'
of Eternal Scriptures should change ! You don't know what does "Eternal" mean !
Why not the aspirant should change? Why should scriptures SUIT today's youth ?
Why not today's youth draw guidance from Scriptures and SUIT their conduct as
per Scriptures ? Why not ? Why interpretation should change, why not the
interpreter ?

Oh No , Sir ! It is not that easy to talk of Holy Scriptures ! You must change
as per Scriptures ! It is Jeeva's responsibility to change/purify/eliminate
his/her ego and acceptance levels.

Re: Today's youth ...parents are responsible almost invariably as they fail to
set examples. Children are not as much to be blamed. A father only takes
re-birth as son ! Parents only set bad examples before children and fail to
control them, being pre-occupied else where in material world. Children are like
mirror. You, as parent, often fail to impart values in them in early days. You
pay attention ONLY when forced to...by the time you do so, it is too late ! No
... I would not blame younger generation as much as I would to ourselves as
parents. You have to set examples yourself, rather than brooding, fretting,
fault finding with them at a later stage ! After all , when born till say 13/14
years of age, a child is highly receptive ! We ignore their progress , their
upbringing at that point to regret later on. We take them for granted then
...set wrong examples before them by conduct , feel that by spending on their
toys and paying school fee is all our duty towards them but do not know that
child is also observing as to how we behave with our own parents/ elders or
enjoy say an occassional drink or how we differ in what we say and what we do !
They are much better observers than us. Being a parent is in itself a great
responsibility.

GT Group has dealt with such issues with great detail in the past. It is not
that GT Group is only focussed on 'Scriptures' !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------

Namaste

For plight of youth today, the elders can not whisk away responsibility.
Scriptures means Shruti. Shruti includes not only the Scriptures but the elders
too, guardians too, PARENTS too ! Father is the SEED GIVER ...is present in the
child ! Rightly Vedas say...PITAABHI JAAYATE PUTRAH...Father only re incarnates
in the son. All traits in your child are YOUR LEGACY given. You cant blame
others ! You are the person, as parent or elder , responsible for providing them
value systems...! It is UNTHINKABLE that interpretation of Eternal Scriptures
should under go change rather than the subject viz the youth. What kind of help
we can expect from Scriptures , if we ourselves are doubting their relevance,
utility etc ? We must, first, ourselves learn to respect and understand
Scriptures before we seek their help in guidance to youngsters. There are no
modern times, there is nothing new, all times are present in modern times
also...sam,e mind, same constant change syndrome, same sorrows, same pleasures,
same desires, same blind race. Nothing is new...and this fact is better
understood by Scriptures than by the today's youith or elders or parents. Hence
focus should NOT be to adjust interpretations of scriptures based on
"assumed/flimsy" thoughts that MODERN TIMES are different than past ...focus
should be to CHANGE OURSELVES to suit the standards set by Scriptures.

Amit Shrivastava

-----------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

Can Mr Yogesh give any other reason other than his individual perception that
Scriptures are not keeping in pace with his "assumed" interpretation od today's
times, youth etc? What makes him think that our Scriptures did not visualise
modern times and hence their interpretation should be changed to SUIT the
desires and ambitions of modern youngsters or demands of time ? The principles
laid down in Scriptures are applicable to all , in all circumstances/situations
and at all times...that is why they are called SANATAN..Eternal ! You cant take
first children for granted and then raising fingers at others including the
children and God and Scriptures and Times ! A Child is like a raw material...you
CAN make an effort right from day ! till the child becomes adult to shape his
future/attitudes/temperament. Parents quite often are children themselves, not
knowing how to impart values into little, flexible children. They simply notice
the child for getting fun, for talking egoistacally before them in front of
others...and are quite often too ignorant of them. When children show their
colours...they get shocked. Parents do not even know that child is hundred times
better learner and grasper than an adult. They dont know when the wax gets
melted and when and how value injection takes place. They believe BY TALKING ,
children will learn ! They must instead set examples by CONDUCT...!

Kailash Verma

----------------------------------

Namaskaar !

The clarification message by Yogesh Lajmi continues to reflect the same
confusion, same insistence and same ego ! Basically, the answer lies in finding
out as to what should change and who should change. It is easier talking about
the directions from the Scriptures, giving reasons of their outdatredness and
stating that they are in consistent with so called mind perceived individual
view that TIMES HAVE CHANGED...and Scriptures must be re-interpreted to SUIT
today's youth, their desires and their ambitions. This very demand, this very
thought, and this very insistence is , at the very outset, is clearly faulty.
The Scriptures are TIMELESS and if you ponder deeply you will find as to how and
why they are so. There is NOTHING that new generation has brought with it NOW,
which was not present THEN. Let us not fall into famous DOHA from
Ramcharitmanas:

SO PARATRA DUKH PAAYAHEE, SIR DHUNI DHUNI PACHHTAAY !
KAALHI, KARMAHI, ISHWARHI , MITHYAA DOSH LAGAAY !!

Jeeva , suffers ...suffers and suffers and beats his chest in regret, often. He
falsely alleges TIME, GOD and DESTINY for his plight.

Let us not make TIME a factor. Scriptures are TIMELESS. At all times...Jeeva is
present, with same machine called MIND. The present times are ONLY the
manifestation of SEEDS sown in the past. Father cant say ...What do I do,
children are not conducting properly with me. HE CAN NOT SAY SO. It is not a fun
to be a parent. How was the child when born? What efforts parents should do, and
what actually they did? What care they took of imparting A GOOD COMPANY to their
children? How did they teach them? How was their presence noticed when you dealt
with others? What were your own unfulfilled desires, attitude, conduct ? You
cant foolishly ignore the child when say he is 4 or 5 year old or when he is 8
or 9 year old...behave in whatever way you think appropriate...and expect the
children to behave AS YOU WANT when they become say 18 or 21. You can not do
that ! Parents are themselves become too materialistic to impart wisdom to
children. They do not set exemplary standards ! They do not watch in what type
of COMPANY , their children are ...when the parents themselves are engrossed in
making fun or earning money and being pre occupied. For them a child is merely
an entertainer to the their egos and enjoy ordering them by speech. Parents do
not even know that IT IS NOT SPEECH WHICH IS PICKED BY CHILD BUT THE CONDUCT
WHICH IS PICKED BY CHILD.

THERE IS NOTHING FOR WHICH THE ETERNAL SCRIPTURES, and SAINTS and SAGES OF
SANATAN DHARMA HAVE NO ANSWER, You have to BELIEVE them, you have to be
respectful to them, you have to SURRENDER to them....rather than employing a
third grade machine, an ever changing machine called MIND and deriving false ego
satisfaction out of them. Parents have to TRANSMIT value systems into youth !
They cant blame others for spoiling of youth. They have themselves only to
blame. Why one is made parent? What is ONE's DUTY vis a vis child? Certainly ,
their duty is much more than providing them food, cloth, shelter ! HENCE LET US
TALK ABOUT CHANGING OURSELVES RATHER THAN CHANGING "INTERPRETATIONS" OF HOLY
SCRIPTURES !!!

Jayant M
----------------------------------------

Hari Om

What a divine response by Miraji Dass! Absolutely clinical ..sharp and
crisp...and that is how a stablised intellect/Viveka discriminates and resolves
! Yes...!! Let us be yes man to Him, His devotees, His Voice (Gita and
Scriptures), His breaths (Vedas) , His will , His desires, His plans, His
decisions, His provisions, His laws, ....and , and ... Yes man to His
world...too !! Let us be...O Sadhaks..do not talk of value systems, talk of
setting examples yourself of value systems ...respect Him, His devotees, His
laws, His words, His Scriptures !!
Be YES MAN vis a vis Him !!

ON BEING "YES MAN TO "HIS" WORLD

I am reminded of following two liner by Saint Rajjabji Maharaj. If you deeply
think it is a policy which makes you "enemy-less" while living in the world, and
"ego less" too as a sweetner. No one can become your enemy , however, he/she may
be , if you follow this advice. It is a policy re YES MAN :

Rajjab Rosh Na Keejiye, Koi Kahe Kyon Jee ! Hans Kar Uttar Deejiye , Haan Babaji
Yonhee !!

Said Rajjabji: (O Jeeva) Do not get annoyed if some one insists or questions or
argues vehemently and unreasonably (Asks How come not) ! (Instead) Laugh and say
respectfully ..Yes ! Babaji (a very honourable title) , as you say ! ( No
objections as to what or why you say)

Now if Babaji says "I have this, that, I am very good, world is very bad, I am
great, others are not a percent even of what I am, Know how I am" ...say sure ,
whatever you say may be right , smile, and take your path. It is not necessary
to say to him ..wrong, even if you are convinced. It is not necessary to tell
him : "According to me Sun rises from East and not West, Babaji ! Or You are not
great. I know very well how you are ! You say you have one million, I say you do
not have a penny.... Wrong..Babaji , you are wrong.." That is wisdom...that is
fruit of being YES MAN TO "HIS" WORLD !! Babaji will never become enemy of
yours. You have avoided conflict ! You laughed. Now use your intellect to assess
the truth.

ON BEING YES MAN TO GOD:

Once in an old boat a group of 15/20 people was crossing a large river. The
group included one Sadhu (Holy man/devotee of God) ! On the way , turbulent
weather endangered the boat. Water started coming into the boat. All people got
busy in throwing water outside by buckets etc. This Sadhu did opposite !!! He
will take water from outside into boat by hands and say : Jai Sitaram.. Jai
Sitaram...! Fellow passengers noticed but kept busy in throwing water out. After
sometime storm subsided and boat reached safe waters. Now this Sadhu , started
throwing little left water outside and kept saying: Jai Sita Ram...Jai Sita Ram.
That was too much for fellow passengers to tolerate. They said ...Explain !!
Babaji smiled and said: I am YES MAN ... When storm intensified , I thought it
is will of God to sink us..so I united my will with His will and started helping
Him. When later on, I felt ..no, God's will is to save us ...I started throwing
water outside ...Jai Sita Ram...Jai Sita Ram !!

Agreed, Jee, agreed ! YES....be a YES MAN ... "To Him" and to "His men" and to
"His world" !! Nothing wrong ...!!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------

Dear Mr. Yogesh Lajmiji,

Your view or confirmed understanding:

•The old and ancient value-systems are any longer valid or acceptable ...or even
relevant...-yes , they are verty relevant today.
Your questionnaires:

•Whether how these scriptures of old can truly help shape the modern life style
in our country, not only in the cities, but also in the villages? -yes
•How values have changed to mainly materialistic ones? – due to greed
•How and why people are becoming more and more selfish and greedy? – due to
leaving `dharma' or `ethics' or ` moral values'
•Isn't it important that our entire value-system needs a revamp?- no, the value
system has to be re-invoked " dharma rakshati dharmam'

Your suggestions:

•Mull over the Universal real-life problems/situations faced by humanity -start
with yourself.
•The group address these burning issues, of confused adolescents, of
today...growing up like a ship without a rudder, or even sometimes, a sail -
start with yourself.
•Our society needs badly a social revolution and a re-assessment of our old
value-systems in life...and wherever necessary, a change needs to be
ushered-in...that is exactly where members need to concentrate upon, by giving
practical and meaningful suggestions, and not simply repeating and paraphrasing
the scriptures of the old...! ! - start with yourself.

Thanks and regards,

RPLAHIRI,

-------------------------------------

Radhey ! Radhey !!

It is not the "interpretations" of Scriptures that needs changing to suit
today's children, their tendencies and attitudes. Why do we blame others? Why do
we blame children? Why do we blame Time, God, Fate...? Why ? Why dont we look
within? It is parents duty to impart value system into little ones. I wonder how
we can doubt the scriptures and then blame their irrelevance...and still want
scriptures to guide us.? Learn to respect them first...learn to ACCEPT them
first AS IT IS !!Oh..No...Sir...children are our own creation...we owe it to
them the transmission of values. Who will do our role? Sorry...the suggestion to
change interpretation of scriptures to suit today's youth is simply not the
solution. NOT AT ALL...! But it does not mean Scriptures do not contain answer.
For example...if child is DISOBEDIENT, nasty and spoilt...the way taught by
Scriptures, Saints and Sages is ...LIFT YOUR "MINENESS" FROM THE CHILD. Do not
consider the child to be "mine" ...and he will improve. Continue doing your
duty, but do not consider the child to be MINE...you have made the child a
better person the moment you changed your acceptance level. This is one example.
The Scriptures are full of such wisdom. Problem is that we consider ourselves to
be even wiser than Holy Scriptures...else how can this thought even cross our
minds that Scriptures/their interpretation should change to SUIT modern youth?

Radhey ! Radhey !!

Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------

Dear Mr. Yogesh Lajmi, Mr. Sadhak and All
I do agree with Mr. Yogesh Lajmi that universal real-life problem is fore-most
important, whereas scriptures/religions are secondary matter, I opine. These
days we all human beings are living in “era of intellectually giant but
ethically infant”. I opine that the notion of god has failed to create
driving force on these days human-beings to improve their degree of morality. On
the contrary, it appears that due to believing god, the morality has been
degraded. Yet, I opine to enhance degree of morality have no relation in their
middle. People commit vices and wipe out their vices by offering something
material like gold, money, sweet, flowers and what not!, without changing
themselves, is itself a great hypocrisy. In course of the offering/appeasing
god, they believe themselves that they have deleted their vices, is quite
ridiculous. Isn't it?

“Mental revolution is the complete revolution, though it is very very slow
process”.
Unless man wills voluntarily to tread on virtuous path, no change or enhancement
in morality can be possible. “Change of mind voluntarily, is the permanent
change”. Ideal example is â€" Emperor Ashoka - The Great.
# Center of religion of Man must be Man and not (Non-existing/imaginary) God.

Regards,
C.C. Hadke.

------------------------------
Namaste

Message of Krishnaji is over emphasising on just one way and needlessly insists
as that being the only way. No...you cant establish me-ness and mine-ness with
body/world under the garb of ALL IS GOD. All is God...is a concept which is
experiential and pre-supposes your DISCONNECTION with world ACTUALLY. There are
many methods and what so emphatically stated by him is certainly not the ONLY
way.

Jayant M

-----------------------------------

Peace...!

I wonder what kind of help be receieved by us from Holy Scriptures if we look at
them as outdated , not keeping in tandem with modern era, their aspirations and
ambitions ? Who are we to judge that? We have to follow them....rather than
thinking in terms of changing them or changing their interpretations. PAR
UPADESH KUSHAL BAHUTERE...In preaching others, most are very wise. But when you
are confronted with real injection of values into younger generation ...you want
interpretation of Scriptures to change ! Why dont parents change themselves
first in accordance with Scriptures and by conduct impart wisdom to little ones
? Is not that an easier and more sensible method? I dont believe there is any
need for changing the interpretations of Scriptures....I believe individual
human should change. Who are we to be critically evaluate the relevance of
Scriptures? Fall in line with them , do not think they should adopt to
you...better you adapt to Scriptures. You are in human birth...not that funny is
this birth. Problem is children become parents of children and when they reap
what they have sown...they complain, allege, rue, regret, blame, find faults
with others....!! Let us turn inwards...! Let Scriptures and their
interpretations remain as they are...naturally, because they are timeless, they
are eternal and they are unchangeable. The real change needed is within our
selves...O Sadhak....!

Peace....!

Audrey Rodrigues

Shree Hari Ram Ram

All that is needed is REAL change is changing the direction of the YES-manship.
HAA MAHARAJ ! Become God's, as soon as we become His "Yes Man" (Haa Maharaj),
everything will be OK. As far as we are concerned, we are only HIS YES man !
All problems, all obstacles will be removed.
As a devoted wife serves everyone, but her only support is her husband,
similarly we should serve everyone but have only God as our support. Only be a
YES-man to God ! Let us do our part by accepting once "I am God's". Become
YES-man to the LORD and peaceful forever and forever ! Meera Das, Ram Ram

---------------------------------

Dear Yogeshji,

One thing u need to appreciate is that we all are seekers, we have questions and
are trying to find answers. Yes some do quote the scriptures, because they have
that knowledge and perhaps they genuinely believe in what they are saying.
Connecting the youth with the scriptures is not a new dilemna, every generation
has faced this. Now with ever increasing materialism the task has become that
much tougher. Several well meaning people are working in that direction and each
one of us who is conscious of this issue should work in our own way to address
the issue.

Hari Om

Shivkumar

--------------------------------------
Hari SharaNam,

The problems appearing on the surface/physical or mental/psychological layers in
the society/world can ONLY be solved by going to the
causal/spiritual/metaphysical layer as everything is reflection/expansion of
this layer.

The scriptures/philosophies/science centered around the various components (e.g.
Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Economics, Politics, Arts, Psychology, Sociology,
etc.) of the upper two layers can help to manage the irregularities in those two
layers to some extent for some period of time BUT unless the causal layer is
understood and corrected, the problems will recur through the upper 2 layers.

We can see very good of technical & economical advancements around us BUT one
needs to ask "at what cast and how long it is going to help"? For example, a
team working on BioDiversity says: "Around half of the planet's natural
environments had been converted for human use by 1990. The IUCN projects that a
further 10-20% of grass and forest land could be converted by 2050. The rising
population and economic growth mean that natural resources are used at less and
less sustainable rates. WWF calculates that by 2050, humanity's resource use
would need two-and-a-half Earths to be sustainable." There are many such reports
showing the effect of uncontrolled advancements. I am not against the
advancement in the upper layers but my concern is "It must not be uncontrolled".

To completely understand and correct the irregularities appearing in the upper 2
layers, one WILL HAVE to go to the scriptures/philosophies/science (e.g.
Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, etc. ...) dealing at the causal/spiritual/metaphysics
layer. That is the reason Lord Krishna says " Knowing this nothing will remain
unkown" (GitaJi - 7/2). I would like to remind my brothers & sisters that GitaJi
does not suggest the individual (whether SAADHAK/aspirant or SIDDHA/realized)
to move away from the others (in fact there is no other) dealing with the upper
two layers. Instead, Lord Krishna strongly recommends everyone to WALK (may not
require preaching)on the paths which are beneficial/healthy for all the beings
by giving examples of "King Janak and Himself" (GitaJi - 3/20-22). This is the
point which powered the the great souls of India few years ago in the form of
freedom fighters (e.g. B.G. TilakJi, GandhiJi, S. C. BoseJi, ArvindJi, Vinoba
BhaveJi & many others) to achieve their goals and not only that they also wished
(in the forms of their commentaries on GitaJi) others to follow the principles
of GitaJi.

My dear brother, In my limited understanding, "Understanding of the scriptures
is important and not their modifications". But, the funny thing is that the
moment you understand them you will be out of the causes for any modification.

So, to see the real change in ourselves and the society, we need to WALK the
paths.

May all be blessed
Niteesh Dubey
---------------------------------------

Dear Sirs,
Most of you have amply proven the point I was making... !
By rushing in to reply without understanding the import of what I
have said...pl. allow me to re-iterate that,I have NOT said,any where, that our
scriptures need a change...
However,it's interpretation,though,needs a change,such that it
suits today's young and growing generation's aspirations and ambitions,and
matching with their values bench-marks for they have themselves developed over
their entire youth and exposure to the modern world,it's
asttractions/distractions/it's temptations/advantages/new needs/values etc...and
inspite of our parental teachings and advice...
Those among us who simply refuse to accept that the upcoming
generations' values... have perceptibly undergone a sea-change...pardon me,
remind me of ostriches...which is why I had suggested/requested the group to
mull over the real problem staring at us in the face... !
I am speaking from my personal experience,as a great
grand-parent,grandparent and father ...
as well as my wide travels almost all over India,especially in the interiors and
among the adivasis etc.,in every state,almost every month I used to be on
tour...and my objective was observing people and learning from them...
I am quite surprised and sad to read many of the remarks
made,probably without thinking in depth,(mulling over)but perhaps jusifying
their own engrossment with their "attaiment of 'knowledge' of the
scriptures"....as if I have affronted them...but only superficially and taking
shelter under them for "not sparing a thought for the young and upcoming
generation who are less learned and heavily influenced by alien cultures...under
their very noses..."

Dear Friends,
I consider ALL members of this group as highly intellectual,because
it requires a certain level of intellect to discuss philosophy in general and
The Gita especially,and that too,meaningfully indeed...
Hope that answers the query by Doctor Mankikar...
With best wishes,
Yogesh Lajmi

------------------------------------

The problem with making the present day youth as well as many elders have fath
in our scriptures is due to the very simple fact that, most of our Swamijis and
many elders/parents try to still interpret them without reference to the present
lifestyle. Further, there are so many societal ills plaguing the Hindu community
through practice of age-old measures, that the YOUTH want to dissociate
themselves from the whole Hindu concept. Trying to tell them again and again the
same old story - follow what is there in the sloka and everything will be
alright, is not going to help.

For instance, Bhagawad Gita can be interpreted based on modern science and logic
to make some sense to modify the life they are living to give them a better
control over themselves. We cannot and should not try to make everyone a YOGI or
Swami. That is neither good for society nor for the individual concerned. We
should try to get some proper sense and advice to make the life even a little
better than what it is as well as some change in personality for the better.
Anyone undertaking a mission to propagate our Hindu heritage based on any
scripture, should bear this in mind.

I have been interpreting Gita for more than a decade to the old and youg alike
to make them get some good practical advice for their lives. It has made a
difference.

Harih: OM!

Vijendran Rao

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ramkrishna,
I have not at all suggested what you've seem to have presumed...
I have suggested that this group, consisting of highly intellectual people from
all walks of life, mull over the issue,as to how we need to tackle the changing
Value-systems,of our new and upcoming and highly educated generation...who now
do not seem to subscribe to those held by the older generation...

Dear Shiv Kumar,
Just what,may I know please,in your considered opinion,is the
very objective with which the sriptures were scripted,in the first place ?
Are they just to be read and "quoted" at the drop of a hat,only
to indicate to everybody,as to, how well-read one is ?
Aren't they meant to be understood properly,in depth, and acted
upon,or followed,and the message spread ?
If the scriptures are meant to be followed,then they should
vibe with the thinking of the new up and coming and better educated,more widely
exposed modern generation,whose value-systems are so very different...isn't
it...? Else they won't be accepted by them...as it is the "religious fervour"
among them is fast disappearing,as they find it irrelevant to their
"way-of-life" that they have now embraced...

TV programmes have several times depicted how our new generation is degenerating
into taking shelter of "drugs",eventually becoming addicts...even the children
of the poor/beggars inhale glue...! Eventually,most of them,rich as well as
poor,resorting to crime to finance their addiction...
According to my observations, most members, especially Sadhak, have suggested
that I am saying these things in the wrong forum...which is beyond my
comprehension...
I fail to understand,as per Sadhak,as to,why is this forum not meant for the
subject we are discussing. Is it only meant to discuss "the scriptures", without
making any effort to improve the lot of ourselves and our new generation... and
impress people of how well-read we are,never mind that we hardly practise much
of it and that our new generation mostly abhors it...and we only semonise
ourselves...
The Gita teaches us Dharma,so what better place is there to discuss Gita-Talk
Hope and pray that better sense prevails...
Yogesh Lajmi.
GOOD LUCK !

========================================
Shree Hari Ram Ram
Shree Yogeshji,
Your concerns are geniune, and the responses by sadhaks is geniune as well.
Many sadhaks have put forth significant time effort to respond to your query.
Even though what has been stated by others is not satisfactory to you, yet an
acknowledgement of their effort, for devoting their time would have been a good
gesture.

With devotion, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------

Sir,
u r correct. people even quote bhagavadgita when do those atrocities. can we
stop them they behave like rakshasas and they get moksha since they always break
the rules of all types and enjoy the fruits but the believers in god always
suffers. actually i am confused now whether to hate God and get moksha in short
time or suffer throughout my life in believing God and get moksha After all i
do not know after my death.some one says unless u appear for test how can God
know what u r but the persons who do not appear better in their lives. What is
this?
regards
rajen babu

----------------------------------------------

Dear Yogeshji,

I would like to offer a little different perspective on the issue
raised by you. While the issue raised by you is very much valid, the
question to be asked is what are its causes and how do you remedy the
situation. It is certainly not the fault of the scriptures that
today's youth is facing such problems. In fact, it is the absence of
scriptures in daily life that the problems are getting multiplied.

We as elders, as parents, as teachers, as politicians, as society
leaders alongwith the faulty education system have to own up the
responsibility for the prevailing situation amongst the youth.

Most of us are too engrossed in achieving our own material goals to
even have time for own spiritual journey; in fact many of us are not
even aware that what appears to be real is unreal, but we are too busy
chasing the mirage.

So if we want to really help the youth, we have to first help
ourselves by realising the self. Without going into the deep waters
you cannot touch the bottom, splashing water on the surface will take
you nowhere. The beauty of this journey is that you dont have to go
anywhere, whereever you are and in which ever condition you are, you
can begin your journey of self realisation.

This is the path which you have to traverse to find the answers for
yourself; answers are all there but each one of us has to find them
for ourselves. I believe that the Truth never changes, it is in the
presentation of the Truth that changes may take place. Try to reach
the Truth and once there you will have all the answers. As one of the
Sadhak's has rightly stated, we have to change ourselves before we can
change the world.

You have already embarked on this lovely journey by communicating with
other Sadhaks; keep exchanging your thoughts you will be a wiser and a
happier person and you will be actually able to help the young
persons.

Humbly yours

Shivkumar
------------------------------------------------

Pass this two documents to all young ones of today we will address many of the
issues about first understanding our position in society before address ing all
of the humanity's issues that you mention, Indians are not at one with anything
at all and this has to change first
regards
Dr Gurudeo Anand Tularam

--------------------------------------------

Shree Paramatmane Namah
Shri Lajmiji! You have picked a good topic, but on the wrong platform.
Gita-talk platform operates based on accepting as it's base (support,
platform)the teachings of Srimad Bhagavadgita
You have written -

What our society needs badly,is a social revolution and a re-assessment of our
old value-systems in life...and wherever necessary,a change needs to be
ushered-in...that is exactly where members need to concentrate upon,by giving
practical and meaningful suggestions,and not simply repeating and paraphrasing
the scriptures of the old...! !
This is your individual thinking. The society is thinking on it's own and
operating and changing accordingly. And when the need arises, then what you are
thinking it will change in that way.
No one can change the society. When the individual changes, then the society
will change. This Gita-talk is about individual's discussions. Whether to
believe and accept or not is your wish.
So be it,
Humbly,
Sadhak

--------------------------------------

Dear All,
The old scriptures provide values as anchors and tools, now it is upto the user
for what purpose the use of tool is made for. Now whatever is seen or perceived
out side in the world is mere reflection of the inner intentions, feelings and
perspectives. These are the creators of actions and reactions of any individual.
So you can you the tools available in old scriptures as per the need or
perspective, whatever, no limits no bar.
Dr.Anil Mukhi

---------------------------------------------

Controlling my self vs. Controlling others. Those who believe they need to
proceed along the path to control their selves use scriptures to guide them to
attain personal peace. Those who want to change the circumstances would try
that. Most of us fall in both these catagories. We want to control the
circumstances according to our Swabhav and Gunas acting at that time. But we the
observer can be at peace amongst all that if we follow the true meaning of our
scriptures.

Isn't Gita all about resolving that conflict in the mind of Arjuna?
Hemu Parikh

---------------------------------------------

Hari Om!

The teachings of Srimad Bhagvad Gita are as applicable today as when they were
enunciated thousand of years ago. You may search on Bhagavadgita by Arshabodha
and please give it a fair chance.

Respectfully, Anil Aggarwal
------------------------------------------------

Ram Ram

In my humble view what is needed is not a re assessment of our old value systems
but re assertment of our old value systems. It is because of our present value
systems going hay wire that the world is heading in the direction it is heading.
The `yes-manship' to what is stated in the scriptures is to assert their values.
What is written in them is very much relevant today also – but only if we want
to achieve the same purpose for which the scriptures have been written – i.e.
the purpose of human life – god realization/ liberation.

Read the scriptures with the true goal in mind and they fit perfectly. The
problem lies in the absence of the true goal – and the disinterest in even
wanting to know the true goal.

Ram Krishna
Ram Ram
----------------------------------------

Dear Lajmij (and all other fellow Saadhakas),

Excellent suggestion ... not to be an yes-man. But, how did you get to believe
that our scriptures are responsible for that?!

You mention an important need ... relevance to the soceity. But, relevance to
the persons is fundamental for that - don't you agree?! Relevance to the person
can raise ONLY WHEN the idea touches the experience and knowledge one is blessed
with. Accordingly, one may choose to just accept (which you call being an
yes-man) or one may choose to object (we can call that as a no-man). But, I am
still puzzled in your inference that a no-man is superior to an yes-man!!!

To be an yes-man is the nature of the persons. Such nature, relieves the stress
of opposition and change and anxiety of potential conflicts in relationships in
life. Everyone tends to be so in all walks of lives all around the world. One
cannot withstand the stress of life unless one adapts to concede to the
circumstantial rialities as well as personal notions.

On the other hand, the very acceptance often throughs one into a perceived
staleness ... the fellow within starts feeling confined and looks for an outlet
... a no-man raises from within. Then, the intellect wakes up to assert its
existence to revolt the acceptance in an effort to resolve the staleness in the
accepted cocoons.

But, just a revolt or a no or a why does not assure and ensure even a fracture
in the coccoons! In spite of questioning feverishly, one remains well within the
cocoons ... at best, there may be a shift in the epi-center of one's beliefs -
the yes-manship! The fact is clear ... the coccoons rule the lives ... and, it
has nothing to do with any scriptures or any other potential source of knowledge
... and, it is not confined to your country alone ... trust me.

The help we seek from the scriptures is to dent a fissure in these apparently
impervious coccoons ... to let the light of REAILITY peek in ... flush the
ignorance thereof ... to shine the fellow within revealing ITSELF (THE LIGHT)
thereof ...

Na tatra sooryo bhaati na chandrataarakam nemaa vidyuto bhaanti kuto'yamagnih |

No "yeses" and no "nos" can ever shine thine as none of them do possess any
lustre of their own. You can bring even the cosmic elements to reinforce your
intellectual excericise of acceptances and objections ... the coccons of
ignorance remains.

Tameva bhaanatmanubhaati sarvam tasya bhaasaa sarvamidam vibhaati ||

All appreciations are susceptible to vary over space and time ... and hence
ought to loose their relevance as soon as they are fathomed. The ONLY RELEVANT
is THE LIGHT that shines all ... the sun, the moon, the fire, the stars, the
eyes, ... and, the mind. The relevance remains as ever. Quoting scriptures or
unquoting the same cannot bring that relevance ... JUST BEING is the only
relevant ...

Let THE LIGHT of all shine all as ever. HAPPY DEEPAAVALI TO ALL.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------

Ram Ram

In my humble view what is needed is not a re assessment of our old value systems
but re assertment of our old value systems. It is because of our present value
systems going hay wire that the world is heading in the direction it is heading.
The `yes-manship' to what is stated in the scriptures is to assert their values.
What is written in them is very much relevant today also – but only if we want
to achieve the same purpose for which the scriptures have been written – i.e.
the purpose of human life – god realization/ liberation.

Read the scriptures with the true goal in mind and they fit perfectly. The
problem lies in the absence of the true goal – and the disinterest in even
wanting to know the true goal.

Ramkrishna
Ram Ram
----------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Dear Yogesh,

Almost a mischievous question, and will provoke a plethora of responses
I bet.

Myself I prefer to juxtapose different sources in my post, as the
eternal truth is, then it must appear in different traditions.

Follow whatever you want to as long as it's aim is peace of mind, and
peace to all others, not to cause hurt to others, not to judge, and to
be of help to others.
Ultimately, you may transcend the chains that bind you!
I have heard often, that the biggest disease to afflict
industrial/modern society in the coming decades, will be stress related
causing depression , anxiety, personality problems....
Ultimately the cure is not going to come from pharmaceuticals, booze,
drugs, or dope etc.
One will have to do something for oneself, to release the negative
energy that slowly builds up within.
Yoga, meditation, painting, singing, praying, and so on.
Regard Swamiji's words below:
Gita, Ramayan, Bible or Koran or anything else - but in the end you have to
remove your likes and dislikes - all are same. No likes or dislikes.
They have
to be removed. Gita is liked by all because there is no like or dislike for any
particular path.

Finally Yogesh you should put for instance in your question, a specific, not
declaring of a need for social reform, be it a question re drugs, destructive
life style and the like.
Many Sadhaks have their own story of their own pain, their own follies, so hit
'em with the modern questions and see what comes to light.

Om ... Shant ...

Mike.
-------------------------------------------------

Dear Yogesh
Your question is very general and not specific. Contrary to your feeling that
scriptures quoted are not relevant to the problem of our youth, my feeling is
that the Gita gives the most practical advise in the midst of real strife and
crisis to the seeker Arjuna. If Arjuna realized his duties hearing and
understanding this scripture so can all of us. The root cause of materialism is
identification of ours with unreal, body and its sense objects with an aim to
become happy. Desires lead to more desires and insatiable greed. And non
fulfillment of desires burns to anger, loss of judgment and in turn a life of
waste. But the Gita is a message of hope for all at any stage of life. Using the
path of knowledge, selfless unattached work or complete surrender in love one
can achieve union with the immortal and become immediately free from the cycle
of birth and death. How much more specific and direct can the message of the
Gita be for all generations past, present and future??
Sadhak
Vispi Jokhi

--------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

There is a huge complaint by the Questioner, coupled with insistence regarding a
particular way forward. It does not pay that way. REAL CHANGE needs to take
place not OUTSIDE, not in others, not in world at large...but in ONE's OWN SELF.
What are we doing and what we should be doing; what are we trying to know and
what actually is knowable; what are we trying to get and on what we should
actually seek !! These terms like 'revolution' etc need to be implemented with
reference to one's self...if all concentrate on that, the entire world will
change for better. In fact there is nothing wrong with the world....it appears
to you as you are. Hence if you change...the world changes...It is a
Law...Yogeshji !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------------

Yogesh Lajmi-ji, you are absolutely right about our addiction to quoting
scriptures. Human beings by nature are inclined to satisfy ego through pleasures
of various kinds including the pleasure of being a Gita Sadhak. And, virtually
no one practices or follows the recommendations to Arjun in Gita. Gita has two
themes: an analysis of the human nature and behavior based on empirical
observations on people at that time and an advise to Arjuna to follow the
principle of Yoga rather than remain confused with unscientific reasoning and
emotions that are also part of basic human nature.
One important lesson from Gita is that one cannot do anything really good to the
society or to oneself so long as one has not gotten rid of ego, desire, anger,
fear, and as long as one is not established in equnimity (seeing everyone and
evrything as the same). Those who have first prepared themselves to overcome
ego, desire, anger, fear and all that, do not get worried about the many
problems that the society has. They are unperturbed by whatever goes on the
external world. And, they do whatever they do as part of selfless Karmya yoga to
help others in their own ways and within the limits of their capacity and
capability.
Those who are concerned with the rudderless adoloscence must first of all
recognise that this is not a problem at all - it is only a phenomenon that is
the consequence of many earlier phenonmena and their interactions overtime. Gita
would urge perons not to be fearful and angry with anything including whatever
is happening with the adloscents now. Gita would urge one to reflect and think
why is that what is happening is happening. That would be trying to gather a
comprehensive knowledge rather than partial analysis of trying to blame one
factor or another like value systems of the past. Once such a knowledge is
available, one must find the duty of self-less actions one can take to
contribute the process of change in the society. And, then one must start taking
those selfless actions without any desire to achieve the desired consequences of
those actions.
Society is in a continuous process of social revolutions irrespective what we
think and do. Even now we have adloscent islamic terrorists and Maoist
terrorists thinking of social revolutions and adloscent and youth trying to win
medals in sports. Lord Krishna did his duty and knew that he would not be able
to stop the destruction from the War at Kurukshetra. Guatam Buddha preached love
as did Jesus Christ. They contributed throuigh their selfless actions to the
process of societal change. They knew that they can only do their selfless duty
and did not worry about the consequences. They had solved their own problem of
sufferring from egos, desire, fear and anger. They could only urge others to do
the same fully knowing that not all people will follow them and some who would
follow them would not really and fully overcome ego, desire, fear and anger. We
must individually mind out meaningful, practical solutions that we individually
and as a group can attempt at implementing in our own individual lives and set
examples to others. Once as an individual I can demostrate that my value system
is one that makes my behaviour selfless, ego-less, desire-less, anger-free,
fearless and established in equanimity, no adloscent can find a living
illustration of a guide for him/ her.
Scriptures will only help us form our own selves. The what we do we help the
process of change in thesacity. If we have not changed, we cannot have any
impact onthe adoloscents.
Basudeb Sen

-------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks & Sri Yogesh,
Yogesh by name itself represents Yogi. Four yugas are designed as it was and is.
That is why in Kaliyug, even listening of Bagavan Namas even enough to liberate.
But in Sat Yug, one needed to do Tapas, Yagna, Pooja, Dhaana, Etc. It is today
scientific proof, that the Genes of baby matters lot for its behavior, diseases
and Etc. Then this Genes are from parents who got from their parents and so on
over generations. To revamp- Can we cut on cinimas the way it is presented on
love affairs? Can we select good statesman as politician? If selected, will the
present day politician leave him alive? Can we go back to the olden days food
habits (Said in Geetha)? Can we be strict to our children these days to punish
them with prescribe law of Dharma as per Vedas, without seeing our attachment
(Like thinking of punishing neighbor`s child)? If yes to all this, then we have
revamped our present days systems. IF NO- then this topic is not relevant.
B.Sathyanarayan

---------------------------------------

Lazmiji,
You are referring to day to day practical problems of life and their solutions.
Sir, in the forums like Gita-Talk, fundamental question is deliberated-What is
Life itself.
The clarity on the fundamental issue affects all the practical aspects of life.
This clarity of the fundamental issue brings mutation in the brain. All other
changes are changes on the periphery. They do not touch the core.
Even those who simply see the issue clearly, are fundamentally transformed.
For the last four years I have been interacting with persons at different
levels, there is fundamental shift in their perception of all the aspects of
life.
Human mind is programmed. To understand this programming is the whole issue.
Life is celebration itself, the search for some satisfactory point(ending) keeps
one tied to complaining, blaming, feeling guilty. One misses action.
You may search Fundamental Expressions on the net to explore.
Regards
Y V Chawla

--------------------------------------------------
Dear Yogesh Lajmi.
Basudev Sarvam
I am surprised reading your view and confused what kinds of Revamp Revolution
and change are you Expecting Than Ram Raj! what's better thing is not in our
scripture? Only the shortage is to understand and obey our scriptures/what kinds
of confusion do you have?I humbly suggest you to study the literatures published
from GEETA PRESS GORAKHPUR and after that if still you have any doubts and
confusion I would clear It whenever you wish.
with best Regards
Basudev

-----------------------------------------------------
I am not sure who should respond to this call, by your sentence----
I am looking forward to the response of the highly intellectual members of our
society...
either you mean everyone or no one, since no intelligent person will truly say I
am the one.

You should perhaps have left it at looking for your responses.............!
Durgesh Mankikar,MD

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