Sunday, October 31, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: Need Clarity around Samdarshinah (Equal Sight)

 


Being a Brahman myself I know too many of our breed who are deeply unconscious
and do not deserve the reverence that the Gita refers to this appelation. I
cannot claim to know the Gita but my inner experience confirms that anybody with
a view that there exists a category of man called "pariah" is seriously deluded.
I agree that our approach/behaviour could vary depending on the level of
consciousness of another, but terms like "pariah" and outcast are serious
impediments to spiritual growth. Even the Gita must be re- interpreted to frame
these concepts with more insight. An egotistic Brahman steeped in mindless
habits and rituals and a delusional mind might indeed need to be approached as a
"pariah" . The converse could apply to a "Shudra" who is highly conscious and
needs to be approached as a " Brahmana". If that is the true meaning of the Gita
then this verse can be accepted as truth. Brahmana is not a achieved as a birth
right but through ones level of spiritual awareness and growth.

Gautham Krishnan

---------------------------------------------

Shree Paramatmane Namah
समदर्शिन: के सन्दर्भ में कथन Samadarsinah ( Equal Sight) means Seeing Divinity in every life. A true Yogi sees the Lord everywhere. This is not complete. Not just a Yogi, any viewer,  can he see besides the the Essence of Paramatma,  anywhere,  anything other (that which is not Paramatma)?  If he is able to see, then what use is that Paramatma that is not all pervading?    You are now attempting to prove  "All is God" (Gita 7/19) to be unreal, which you will never be able to do. 
So be it
Humbly
Sadhak


-----------------------------------------------

Gautham Krishnan-ji,
You are right: although you are born in a family whose ancesestors were
Brahmin by caste during the good old days of Gita when it was composed and
when Brahmins reflected certain desired qualities and required to follow
certain vocations that persons belonging to other castes diid not reflect or
expected to do. Nor are you a brahmin in the sense that you attained tne
Brahman. All this is true strictly from Gita's perspective. Your or my
amcestory has no relevance as the pure caste system of the Gita days are not
in existence for centuries now. But irrespective of any caste, whether
Brahmin, Shudra, Kshatriya or Vaishya, the ultimate goal prescribed by and
predicted by Gita is Salvation through attainment of Brhamana or reaching
the state of equanimity when caste, creed, sensual pleasure, all
disappointment, all distictions go / vanish. We are all on the path of
realisation of this Truth. Your referring to your being born to particular
class is not peculiar to brahmins, but all persons belonging to various
castes and religions. This is normal: getting out of this mental block is
the hard path towards salvation - freedom from seeing different things as
different and not as the same as God.


Basudeb Sen


--------------------------------------------------------



----------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Juxtapose the lines of B.G.5:18 below against 'The Law of Manu', to see how debased thinking of differences can become,once you put a label on anything:

The sage (wise one) looks upon a learned and humble Brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a pariah (lowly, out caste) with the same eye (with vision of God), in all of them. || 18 ||

Manu II. 213, The interpretation that I read  said - Killing of a woman, a Shudra, or an atheist is not sinful. Women are an embodiment of the worst desires, hatred, deceit, jealousy and bad character. Women should never be given freedom.......

Now from Yogavaasishtha regard the note:

43-44. Abandoned by the compulsions (or restraints) of the scrip­tures, the duties of caste and the conduct befitting the order (or period) of life, profound and pleased (or tranquil), he rejoices (or sports) in the Self by his own self.

Note: There are four divisions (or Varna-s) of people—Braahmana (or the intellectual and the spiritual), Kshatriya (or the active and the valorous), Vaisya (or the enterprising and the covetous) and Soodra (or the servant and the dependant). This has deteriorated into a rigid caste system determined by birth in India, though it is a rational division of avocations based on individual qualities, aptitudes and skills. Aasrama is a period or stage of life. There are four stages—Brahmachaarin (or student and celibate), Grhastha (or the householder) Vaanaprastha (or a dweller in the forest; i.e., one who has retired into the woods for spiritual inquiry and contemplation) and Sannyaasin (or the ascetic; i.e. one who has renounced all material possessions and is a wandering monk de­lighting in his spiritual fulfillment and enlightening others). A re­alised sage, according to this verse, is not bound by the constraints of these divisions and orders of life

As I see it if ever there was a warning to step back and think its B.G. 5:18, observe all is of God, how you relate to people is surely according to their nature, that goes with animals also.
Respect should not be confused with fear, people often feign respect, but these actions are driven by fear!

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Shri KrishNah SharaNam Mama
 
Krishnan ji,
 
You are right. As I understand, Bhagwan Krishna has mentioned it very clearly in Gita that the four 'varnas' or classifications have been done by Him only according to  persons' actions and the attributes. please refer to Verse 4.13 where He says - 'ChaaturvarNyam maya srishTam guna-karma vibhaagshah'.
 
According to my understanding, a person is known by his actions, the 'varna' he has inherited is just by accident of birth in a particular family. The essence however, lies in doing better and better and trying to rise above the known attributes of that particular 'varna'.
 
Regards. 

K.N.Sharma
Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka regarding the concept of
Samadarsinah.

Samadarsinah ( Equal Sight) means Seeing Divinity in every life. A true Yogi
sees the Lord everywhere.

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
" Sarva bhuta sthitam yo mam,
Bhajaty ekatvam asthitah,
Sarvatha vartamano pi,
Sa yogi mayi vartate. "
( Gitaji, 6, 31)
Which means,
'The Yogi who engages in devotional service, knowing that I am the supersoul in
all beings, always remains in Me. '
Whoever truly believes in God, sees Him everywhere.
Thank You.
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

---------------------------------------------------------


Each element in this creation has its own purpose and utility to the whole of
creation. Honestly, I am not much amused by buffalows reciting Veda etc. Basic
Daharma, Rita or even Sanaatana Dharma consists of recognizing that every being
in this creation/evolution has some rights and some (if not more) duties to the
creation. Existing or living enjoying the rights and not causing hindrance to
other's rights is Dharma. When we stick to this principle it is Samadarshana.
Laws of creation has decreed to each being certain regions of enjoyment. Enjoy
within those regions without trespassing or transgressing into other's regions
is the basic principle of Dharma.

NOTE: In this the question or even the mention of the Supreme Being is
redundant. Thus Dharma is not necessarily AAstika or thiestic. A Samadarsi need
not worship gpoing to a temple or Church or Masjid. As long as he sticks to his
duties and region of enjoyment, he is Mukta. He has no enemies as he has
developed the same attitude to all beings around him. He has no ups and downs.
and hence dvamdvaateeta and so on..

A drastically different concept of release or Moksha comes in when Dharma is
degraded or denigrated to religion. Gita is not a book of religion; it is Dharma
Saastra. Hence when it says Samadarsi, it does not mean find "GOD" in every
animal. It means "know each element including Virus has its own purpose and
right. And behave not to crush their toes.
Samadarsana is not the synthetic egalitarianism but natural weighted equality.

This sight may not allow my article on Dharma Vs Religion. But if you are
interested, doctor, you feel free to contact me on my maili address and I will
be only happy to send you a copy. That may clarify certain things. Ar Revoir
Krishna
------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Gyaneswar touching a buffalo stated saying Vedas. Do sadaks know the buffalo was
Guru to Gyaneswar while writing Gyaneswari (Geetha Meaning)? Do sadaks know that
the buffalo went into Samadhi near Pune? What about Gyaneswar touching a wall on
which he was sitting, took off like a flight. Buffalo was Cheetan (Living) and
the wall Acheetan (Non living) To know that one needs total faith and
contemplation on that faith. Not possible to explain easily. One has to
experience by faith. Tell me God how he looks, is not possible. But GOD can be
experienced.
Let me ask you something- When you happen to see a lion, deer, bird, monkey,
lizard, snake etc DO YOU HAVE ANY AVERSION ON THEM OR DO YOU GET ANGRY ON LION
AND LOVE ON DEER? No. You understand by your intellect that they are like that
in creation like that. No hard feeling or discrimination between them in your
mind. THAT IS SAMADHARSHAN. Just twist your mind that the man has come from them
to human carrying their respective vasanas from animal to human. So the behavior
of some may be like snake, like lion, like deer etc. Understand this, then it is
Samadharshan.
One more-- Do you treat differently among the sadaks posting in this group. NO.
It is samadharshan.
GOD has Samadharshan perfectly. So HE sees only the conscience level of living
creatures. Like Gajendra calling Sri Vishnu. Like snake at Kalahasti Bagavan
Shiva. Like spider calling Bagavan Shiva at Trichy temple. Like Parayah Kannapa
who had Bagavan shiva Dharshan. Whereas, Shivachariya who was praying day in day
out saying, Om Namo Rudraya, Om Namo Shivaya etc could not have Bagavan
Dharshan. Like Baktha Gora having Samadharshan when his infant son lived or
killed by him by trampling. He was the same in love with Vital. Absolutely NO
change for a moment in his mind on Vitalnath. Can anyone of us be like that when
we happen to loose our son/daughter/mother/father? Answer to your self. So you
are NOT Samadharshanni. This includes myself. Still worse myself. Having known
this much, I have not developed detachment on near and dear and developed
staunch bakthi on GOD. I unable in my efforts. But Bagavan by HIS efforts can
surely make me HIS loved one, as per HIS geetha saying.
One thing I noticed- The mediators of this group have surely Samadharshan- They
post a funny question or Spiritual question or personal question or family
related question. Apart from that- the sadaks also will link their question
saying, "'What Geetha has to say about their problem"".
B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Divine,
Pranams.
I am writing based on what my Guruji has been teaching... While studying
Bhagvad Gita, please look within as Bhagvaan is trying to give spiritual wealth
to Arjun and that is obtained only by introverting or going within and not
looking outside. So based on this my interpretation is as follows:
•When we clean ourselves after toilet or clean our kids' pee - poop or clean any
elderly who is sick and unable to clean themselves - we are performing our
duties as Shudras.
•When we engage ourselves in any act that in exchange gives us money, food, etc.
we are Vaishya - our duty to fulfill ours - families worldly basic needs
•When we evolve and start recognizing our own weaknesses - anger, passion,
greed, ego, etc. and start the inner war (study chapter 1, 13 to understand our
weaknesses and where this war is taking place) we desparatly trying to win over
them, we are Kshatriya. Sure outwardly also we try to fight for truth or fight
to protect the victims, etc.
•When we have understood who the Brahman/Supreme/Paramatma is and remain
established in Brahman we become Brahmin.
Now tell me, how can one who is established in Brahman - Supreme Consciousness,
or the one who has known, understood, and living in that Supreme Oneness, can
ever distinguish between a cow, dog, female, shudra, etc.? Because he/she knows
that it is nothing but the same power of God residing in all. Rather, he/she
lives in The Truth of ' mamaivaansho jeeva loke...', i.e., we all are an atom of
God or 'vasudevam sarvam...' i.e., all are God themselves. One can find many
slokas affirming this in BG. So from worldly perspective, ignorant one will see
this cast system, distinction between name and form but from spiritual
perspective - also to the one who has attained the highest, none of such
distinctions remain.

Hope this helps...
Humble regards,
always at Thy Lotus Feet
Manjula Patel

---------------------------------------------------------


I am not sure about your explanation. Along comes a "Dnyaaneshvar", and puts his
hand on a male buffalo, who starts reciting the Vedas. How do you explain that ?
First of all, as you rightly said, it is not for the ignorant. It is not only
for a Vidvaan, but a Vidyaa who is also Vinaya Sampanne person, who may be able
to have Vedas recited even from an outcaste, like Tukaram. There is no such
distinction other than in your own mind. There have been several outcastes, who
reached far upward in religious connotation, than many "Brahmins". There are
several examples in Maharashtra, like Gora kumbhaar ( brick maker ) and others.

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

=================================================

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

5-18

vidyaa-vinaya-sampanne, braahmane gavi hastini
suni chaiva svapaake ca, panditaah sama-darsinah

Meaning:

The sage (wise one) looks upon a learned and humble Brahmana, a cow, an
elephant, a dog and a pariah (lowly, out caste) with the same eye (with vision
of God), in all of them. || 18 ||

Comment:

Generally, the ignorant people cite this verse to mean as if to have the same
conduct (behavior) towards all. But this verse says 'samadarshinah (same sight)'
and not 'Samavartina (same behavior)' which means-- seeing with the same eye and
not behaving the same way towards all. Even looking from a gross point of view,
it is impossible to behave in the same way with a cow, an elephant, a dog or a
Pariah (outcaste). The difference in behavior among all these is a must. For
example, worship can be only performed to a Brahmana endowed with learning and
humility, not to outcast. Just like only cow's milk is drunk and not that of
female dog. Just like an elephant rather than a dog can be used for riding. Just
like it is a must that we treat each limb of the body differently but in
pleasure and pain we treat them equally, in other words, pleasure in a limb is
our pleasure and pain in a limb is our pain. We do not tolerate when one of our
limbs is in pain. In the same way, the behavior with all people has to be
appropriate to the situation, but in their pleasure and pain we should have
equal vision.

From "Gita Prabodhani" in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji.

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[gita-talk] Re: What is the Meaning of Moha

 

SHREE HARI RAM RAM

THIS BRINGS CLOSURE TO THIS POSTING. THANK YOU ALL FOR SHARING.
GITA TALK MODERATORS, RAM RAM

==========================================

Respected Sir

Jai Shri Ram

In Ram Charit Manas on a Q from Garudji,Shri Kakbhasund ji has replied
"MOHA SAKAL BYADHIN KER MOOLA"
meaning that Mohais the root cause of all the evils.

Please enlighten me as to What is Moha?

Ram Ram Ji

Man Mohan Batra

-----------------------------------------

If All is God, "Vasudeva Sarvam" [Gita 7 : 19 ] is believed to be unreal then
that is "moha"

=============================================================
Dear Sadhaks

The term MOHA in fact is a very typical term used in Scriptures. It has multiple meanings, two of them are 1. Delusion arising out of your connection with the World. 2. MAMATA (mineness) with body and worldly people. Actually, your getting connected with world instantly creates a me/mine syndrome in you, because only me/mine you get connected. Hence your identification of certain people/things as me/mine and rejection of balance as "not me/mine" is MOHA. Hence 1. Connection with world 2. Delusion/confusion arising out of the same 3. Likes/dislikes with relation to world...these three constitute MOHA.

Pranaams

Amit Shrivastava
----------------------------------------------------------

anger,greed,passion(moha)are the children of kama(desire)and the kama is from sankalpa and sankalpa is the brain child of mind(senses and its objects) as long as the mind is under the controle of budhi no moha can spoil sadhka.Every damage is caused when the mind goes to the controle of senses and their objects

Badri Narayana Miriyala
----------------------------------------------------------

COnsidering Vasudeva Sarvam [Gita 7 : 19 ] as unreal is Moha and worrying about warding it off, in other words, when there is nothing else besides God, never was, and never can be, then what remains besides being joyfully immersed in that alone. The greatest delusion of all is thinking there is something apart from the Supreme Essense Paramatma.
So be it,
Humbly,
Sadhak
----------------------------------------------------------

Namaste Sadhaks

With due respect to statement made by Shri Naga Narain that MOHA is unshakeable
faith, may I seek elucidation from him as to in that case how can that faith be
ever shaken? Also please clarify as to who is "itself" in his statement -
"herald itself to itself" ? I have fairly good knowledge of Scriptures myself
having spent considerable time since childhood, I have for the first time in my
life ever read that moha can also be a mechanism in the hands of ego. Can Shri
Naga Narayan let us know in which Scripture , moha is so defined?

Om Namo Bhagwate Vaasudevaay...!

Jayant M
-------------------------------------------

Namaste

MOHA is neither mechanism, nor belief, nor anticipation nor understanding....it
is ignorance, delusion caused by Sat's association with Asat. "Herald itself to
itself as well as to the world"....Ha ! I wonder if any one at least on this
planet make a sense out of this statement. If MOHA is "unshakeable faith", then
how Arjuna's moha got destroyed? UNSHAKEABLE means in English to be fixed. Where
it is written that MOHA is a belief, to be used by whom for forging
association...by ego?

Pranaams

Amit Shrivastava
---------------------------------------------------

Namaste

Can Respected Mr Naga Narain clarify to this august forum that if MOHA is an
UNSHAKEABLE FAITH, then how it can ever get destroyed? If as per him it is
MECHANISM then how this mechanism got into existence at the outset? Can
ignorance be ever a tool? One shudders really to think even that MOHA can ever
be cause. Is it not an effect ? Please also clarify as to "who" heralds itself
to itself? Ego or Moha or Jeeva or some mind? If it is mechanism or un
derstanding or belief then who is holding the belief/ understanding ? Moha
itself, is it? If no, then, who is "heralding" itself to itself?

Kailash Verma

------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Man Mohanji, thanks for a good question!

'Moha' is delusion born of ignorance, under the spell of 'moha' one does not
understand things in their true nature, assumes the unreal things (constantly
changing world) to be as real (unchanging), thereby gets attached to the mundane
world and suffers as a result. 'Moha' is Tamasic by nature (Gita: 14-8; 13).

Arjuna's was in spell of Moha ('dharama sammudha cetah' --Gita: 2-7), with the
grace of Lord, his delusion was gone, he developed the right understanding,
regained his memory about his true self, ('nashto mohah smriti labdha' - Gita:
18-73).

In Ramcharitamanas, Laxmana is giving a discourse to Guha (Auodhya: 93-1)

moha nisha sabu sovnihara, dekhi sapana aneka prakara |

ehi jaga jamini jagat jogi, paramarathi parpamcha biyogi ||

"Everyone is slumbering in the 'moha nisha' (night of delusion), and while
asleep one sees dreams of various kinds. In this mundane existence it is Yogis
(mystics) alone, who keeps awake-- Yogis who are in quest of the highest truth
and remain aloof from the world."

In case of Sati, (in Bala Kandha of Ramacharitmanas), when Lord Siva bows down
to Shri Ram in Dandak bana (forest), she misunderstood Lord Rama to be only a
prince and not as Lord Rama, because he happened to be doing Lila, crying for
Sita like a commoner, she could not visualize Him as doing Lila (sport)
(Ramchaitamanas: Bala-Kanda: 50). Lord Siva explained but her 'moha' was not
gone at the time, in the next birth as Paravati, she asked Lord Siva to remove
her doubt, that is when Lord Siva narrated Ram Katha to her, her delusion was
gone, she says to Lord Siva:

tumhari kripa kripayatna aba kritakritya na moha (Uttara- Kanda: 52-k)

"By Your grace, O Abode of mercy, I have now attained the object of life and
have no delusion, left in me"

Garuda too had a moha, in Lanka Kanda, when Maghanada seemingly overpowered Lord
Rama by his arrows turning into serpents' coils, Garuda had a doubt-- how can
Lord be caught like this? (Ramchaitamanas Lanka-kanda 73-6). Garuda expressed
the doubt to Kak-bushundi, who narrated Ram Katha, then his 'moha' was gone!

|| Ram Ram ||

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura
-----------------------------------------------

Moha is the mechanism with which the ego forges its association with the world
... the belief that its association is the only proof for the world's existence
... the assumption that the world exists only to serve this association ... the
anticipation that the world should reciprocate its assumption ... the
understanding that the very association is the only way it can herald itself to
itself as well as to the world ... the dependence on the world's response to
forge the association further positively ... Moha is the unshakable faith that
the very association is the only form of the life ...

Respects.

Naga narayana.

--------------------------------------------------

in fact this whole world n which we are living the only thing that is
permanent is death . Being (Jeev) is born to die .that is the real truth in
between we see so many shades and pass through so many stages. we start
thinking we are controlling all those things to me it occurs that is
maya when we get the desired we feel we have achieved only when we do
not get the desired then we blame some one even god .some people feel
guilty .but when we think in broader concept then we realise we are just
in some body else's hands like puppets it is the string that moves us
.my concept of maya is this as told to arjun by shri krishna in geeta
that is the real truth of life/ jai shri krishna

Chaman nigam

----------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------

Namaste Sadhaks

With due respect to statement made by Shri Naga Narain that MOHA is unshakeable
faith, may I seek elucidation from him as to in that case how can that faith be
ever shaken? Also please clarify as to who is "itself" in his statement -
"herald itself to itself" ? I have fairly good knowledge of Scriptures myself
having spent considerable time since childhood, I have for the first time in my
life ever read that moha can also be a mechanism in the hands of ego. Can Shri
Naga Narayan let us know in which Scripture , moha is so defined?

Om Namo Bhagwate Vaasudevaay...!

Jayant M
-------------------------------------------

Namaste

MOHA is neither mechanism, nor belief, nor anticipation nor understanding....it
is ignorance, delusion caused by Sat's association with Asat. "Herald itself to
itself as well as to the world"....Ha ! I wonder if any one at least on this
planet make a sense out of this statement. If MOHA is "unshakeable faith", then
how Arjuna's moha got destroyed? UNSHAKEABLE means in English to be fixed. Where
it is written that MOHA is a belief, to be used by whom for forging
association...by ego?

Pranaams

Amit Shrivastava
---------------------------------------------------

Namaste

Can Respected Mr Naga Narain clarify to this august forum that if MOHA is an
UNSHAKEABLE FAITH, then how it can ever get destroyed? If as per him it is
MECHANISM then how this mechanism got into existence at the outset? Can
ignorance be ever a tool? One shudders really to think even that MOHA can ever
be cause. Is it not an effect ? Please also clarify as to "who" heralds itself
to itself? Ego or Moha or Jeeva or some mind? If it is mechanism or un
derstanding or belief then who is holding the belief/ understanding ? Moha
itself, is it? If no, then, who is "heralding" itself to itself?

Kailash Verma

----------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Before I write my reflections I have put in the translation I have re Moha as a
platform for my thoughts.
From a Sanskrit to English dictionary:
moha moha maeh = delusion, bewilderment, infatuation, preventing the discernment
of truth; "love" in its selfish form of love of another person, where something
is desired for oneself, as opposed to prema, "pure unselfish love."

As discussed by Vasishtha the Ego mind is very powerful but also a deluded
entity:
630. The mind quickly wills (or imagines) the body in itself spontaneously. By
that which is (so) extended, this wealth of jugglery (that is the world) is
produced.
631. Every single mind surely has the power of this nature. The delusion of the
world is produced in every mind severally and differently.

In my simple way of expression, as there are many minds, so are there are as
many (so called) realities.
But if one is able to go beyond the mind, which produces Moha, then a state
heading towards, and eventually Moksha is achieved.
Again see Vasishtha:

2438. The life of that person shines, for whom there is no feeling of egotism,
whose intellect is not tainted and who is even in all conditions.

2439. The life of that person shines, who indeed sees this (world) like a
witness, with an intellect that is cool within and freed from love and hate.

2440. The life of that person is splendid, by whom, leaving what is fit to be
abandoned or acquired, having rightly understood (the Truth), the mind is
directed towards (or given up to) the final limit of the mind (i.e., the
conscious witness beyond thought).
{Note the underlined}

Now To see the Words of the Supreme Lord:

2066 SRIMADBHAGAVADGITA [Chapter 18

0 Partha (Arjuna), has this been heard by you with one-pointed mind? 0 winner of
wealth (Arjuna), has your delusion, born of ignorance, been destroyed? 72
{Thus Arjuna's reply}
Arjuna said:
0 Acyuta (Krsna), my delusion is destroyed and memory is gained through Your
grace. I stand firm, with my doubts dispelled and I shall act, according to Your
word. 73

Note part of the commentary by Swamiji re 18/72:

By using the term 'Dhananjaya, Lord Krsna says to Arjuna, that he is called the
conqueror of wealth, by conquering the wealth of kings. But real wealth,
consists in the destruction of delusion. So he should become a conqueror of
wealth, in the real sense of the term.
{Note the underlined}

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike
------------------------------------------

Namaste

MOHA means attachment and delusion arising out of attachment of two different
and alien elements. When soul connects itself with world, when Jeeva connects
itself from Jagat, two alien elements unite, with 100 percent different nature,
characteristics and attributes. Just as when two objects of opposit nature
collide there is spark, dust and smoke, similarly when SAT and ASAT collide, the
ignorance, moha is the end result. When you take path of SAT and when you turn
towards God, your moha keeps decreasing. When you get entangled with world ,
your moha keeps increasing and in your path a smoke , dense dhuaan arises. That
smoke, that cloud, that ignorance, that foolishness, that nescience, that
avidya, that confusion, that illusion is called MOHA.

Om Namo Bhagwate Vaasudevaay...!

Jayant M
-----------------------------------------

Namaste

MOHA is caused by your connection with world. Me and Mine in relation with world
causes MOHA in Jeeva. Moha is a tendency of Jeeva to get carried away by storms
of nature. It is actually a refined word for attachment with ignorance. I call
MOHA to be a state of worldly attachment out of ignorance.

Namaskar

Kailash Verma

---------------------------------------------

narayan narayan

ENGLISH - Attraction for the acquisition of worldly things and pull towards
other beings is called "moha" in pure language. (To take refuge in the world).
If that same is transformed for the Lord, then one can easily cross the ocean of
this world. This "Moha" can leave us, but "mamta" (sense of mine, proprietary
interest)does not leave.

HINDI - sansharik vastuvo ke prati aakarshan our manushyo ke prati khichav ko
sudh bhasha me moh kahte he . [bhotik jagat ke prati samarpen]
yahi agar prabhu [parmatmatatv] ke prati ho to beda -par hein. moh chut sakta he
lekin mamta nahi chutiti he.
[ramchandra ]

-----------------------------------------------
Sir,
In Tamil, " Moha" means liking a woman/man in an obsessive manner. But here the
explanation is different. Does "Moha" also include this obsession?

captainjohann

-----------------------------------------

Dear sadaks,
Clear in Geetha- Desire is sole root of all evils- Desire is like pouring Ghee
in fire to put of fire.
B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka regarding the meaning of "
Moha".
Moha means attachment, false pride from illusion.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
" Nirmana Moha jita sanga dosha,
Adhyatma nitya vinivrtta kamah,
Dvandvair vimuktah sukha dukha samjnair,
Gacchanty amudhah padam avyayam tat. "
(Gitaji 15, 5)
Which means,
'Those who are free from false prestige, illusion and false association, who
understand the Eternal, who are devoid of lust, who are freed from the dualities
of happiness and sorrow, who know how to surrender to Purushottam, (supreme
Person), attain that Lord's Kingdom. '

Moha is an obstacle to spiritual progress. To begin the spiritual process, we
have to overcome the delusion, caused by pride and false association. The
materialistic attachment will not let us advance into spirituality.
Pure devotional service will let us cross of ocean of this miserable
materialism.
Let us chant the Holy Names and progress towards the spiritual path.
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu,M.D
-----------------------------------------

The commonly observed state in human beings is the yearning or attachment to ne
or more desired objective/s of physical, mental and emotional satisfaction is
Moha. When in the state of Moha, the ego, the intellect, the mind, the senses
and the body is focussed on the attainment of such desired objectives by
striving to achieve or nurturing the desire to chive that objective. The action
of struggle or effort to achieve the objective by itself is not Moha: but the
deep attachment to the desired objective of earthly pleasure enjoyed by the ego,
the intellect, the mind, the senses and the body or the attachment to the
disappointment of not achieving the objective is Moha.
Basudeb Sen

----------------------------------------------
Sir,
One is complacent or wants to become complacent in respect of possessions,
relations, situations, ideas apart from their immediate use. The desire for
complacency is superimposition upon the functional use of possessions and so on.
The complacency can never be actualised as everything is subject to destruction
(and renewal) and not within your control.. This understanding charges the brain
such that now it takes 'what is' as is. The dropping of complacency (moha) and
charging of brain is simultaneous. There is no time gap.
Mystery starts unfolding.
Y V Chawla
--------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

"jaasu satyataa tein jad maya | bhaas satya iva moha sahaayaa || (Manas
1/117/4)

It is out of ignorance, delusion (Moha) that this inert world appears as real,
though it appears so due to That Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God).
The reason for likes-dislikes is also due to fascination, delusion or ignorance

"Moha sakal vyaadhinh kar moola | (Manas, Utter. 121/15)

Whatever is seen, heard, thought about in this life, in that attachment /
delusion is the root; because it does not have a real, independent existence at
all -
"dekhia sunia gunia mana mohin, moha mool paramarathu naahin." ||
(Ramcharitramaanas 2/92/4)

When delusion is gone, "All is only God" – that recollection takes place -
"nashtomoha smirtirlabdhaa" (Gita 12/73).

Meera Das, Ram Ram
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[gita-talk] Re: The Bhagavad Gita Daily - 5-23

 

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

5-23

shaknotihaiva yah sodhum, praak sharira-vimokshanaat
kaama-krodhodbhavam vegam, sa yuktah sa sukhi narah  || 23 ||

Meaning

He, who is able to resist the rushing impulses born out of desire and anger, and overcomes these before he gives up his body is a Yogi (liberated person) and he is indeed a happy man.

Comment

The spiritual aspirant following the discipline (Yoga) of Knowledge should immediately resist the modifications of mind due to desire and anger and should not perform any action following these impulses (Gita: 3-34). As soon as the impulses of desire and anger start, he should abandon them, but if the rush of desire and anger are not resisted right at the outset, then one is compelled to engage in action under their influence (Gita 3-36). When an aspirant is not under the spell of desire and anger, in true sense, he is a Yogi. As such, he who is a Yogi, he truly a happy man.  

From "Gita Prabodhani" in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji.

==========================================

P.S: Please pass on to friends and family. Remember ! There is no greater
service to humanity than bringing another person closer to Truth, and you have
that power in your hands right now.

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Saturday, October 30, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: The Bhagavad Gita Daily - 5-22

 

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

5-22

ye hi samsparshajaa bhogaa, duhkha-yonaya eva te
aadyantavantah kaunteya, na teshu ramate budhah

Meaning

O' son of Kunti (Arjuna), the pleasures that are born of contact with sense objects, are only sources of pain, for they have a beginning and an end. Therefore, no wise man takes delight in them. 22

Comment

All the pleasures of the world are in contrast with pain only. No pleasure stays forever. If the worldly pleasures would remain all the time, then it too would turn into pain. The reason is that worldly enjoyments do not have the power to give pleasure forever. The lasting happiness is possible only in the uninterrupted relish from liberation, only then it is . It is a rule that the outcome of every single worldly pleasure is pain.

The worldly pleasure is of the nature of coming and going, while the self ever stays the same. The worldly pleasure is not a companion of the self. Therefore a discerning spiritual aspirant neither rejoices on obtaining what is pleasant nor becomes unhappy on meeting with the unpleasant.

On enjoying the worldly pleasures, one gets tired but with spiritual joy one gets rest. The worldly pleasure is attained with the help of the instruments (senses, mind and intellect) and spiritual happiness does not require any of these instruments. On feeling sleepy, he lets go of even the greatest of worldly pleasures and sleeps. As he wakes up from deep sleep, all his tiredness is gone, he feels rested and refreshed. If he does not sleep, he will become crazy. This really means that one cannot live without letting go off the worldly pleasures.

From "Gita Prabodhani" in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji.

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Friday, October 29, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: Origin of Gita

 

Dear Sadhaks
I have often wondered at the pronouncement of many that scriptures are the
direct words of God and as such cannot be questioned. While the holy books of
most religions appear to be authored by a person in flesh even though he is an
avataar of God, the vedas and upanishads seem to have no authors. So is Krishna
an avataar and therefore an author and even though he claims to be the God-head
from whom the devatas originate, he opines that the less intelligent worship the
demi-gods or dev atas for material gains, while he who worships him or the
devatas with a spirit of surrender and detachment without desire actually
worships Krishna alone. So finally is Krishna a person who is an avataar of God
from whom the Gita originated or is the Gita God's direct message. Therefore are
books like Bible Quran Guru Granth Sahib or Khordeh Avesta not scriptures as
they are written by someone? Hope this query is within the ambit of Gita-talk
and not offensive to anyone.
Humble greetings
Sadhak
Vispi Jokhi

==================================================

Shri Hari
Ram Ram
 
Just have faith in Bhagwat Gita, rest leave it on God.
 
I ask Sadhak Vispi Jokhi to please read Gita 18(67-78) & also sadhak sanjivani written by Swami Ram Sukh Dass Ji Maharaj available at Gita Press,Gorakhpur.
 
Thanks & Regards
Pawan Kumar Singhal
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Respected Sadhak,
No written text is a direct version of God. It will always invovle the thoughts
of the author in form of his interprettios. As shown in GITA when God gives
knowledge he spaeaks and we listen as he is the ocean of knowledge. Goda
versions are like a song that is sung by him having unlimited lyrics. But he
needs a human body to speak as a soul without a body has only silence as his
language. the human body that he incarnates in is named by him as PRAJAPITA
BRAHMA. The knowledge spoken leads are lives to the perfection and we experience
liberation in life.
kreena shah
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
You are right Lahiri-ji:All  spiritual books have been written by 'human beings' only ; written by " Rishis" , the Truth Seekers, highly Evolved Human Beings in Satvic State; may be developed through analysis, observation , reflection through 'meditation' and told (writing was not there in India in Ancient Time) from Guru to Sishya Parampara. But those days the Rishis in Satvic state with great knowledge did not wish to claim authorsip of books (as they were not there still) or of the Truth they realized and expressed in human language. They therefore admitted that the Truth as revealed to them was sourced in God Almighty. The answer lies in the understanding of the basic tenets of the Sanatana Dharma. Nothing in this World is done by anyhuman being - it is a myth and keeps human being under illusion ofdoer-ship. Thewords that we speak, the words that we write and other actionsthat we seem to be doing are all the work of prakriti.
The Self or the Consciousness does noting. The self is one and undivided. It is the Brahmanor the Source of that is in the entire Creation we percieve and beyond. That is the one and only one God.  If God is the source of any and every thing,then He is also the source of Prakriti or Nature or Natural forces andprinciples or laws. So the sages who heard from the consciousness, thenspoke and recited them and then finally wrote them out could not claim thatthese were their work or doing. The had to acknowledge that the source ofall these knowledge in Vedas and Upanishads is God.  As has been said in ChandiStrotta: ' Ya Devi Sarbobhuteshu Buddhi Rupen Sansthitha' meaning that God only is the one that exists in the intelligence of all human beings. So all authorship of everything is ultimately sourced in God.Yes, ultimately some human being or other uttered each sloka for the first time and others listened and recited to others and still some authors wrotethem down. But are thet real source or authors of the slokas? The realsource of authorship lies with GOD.But it is the Illusion created by God that makes people believe in humanauthorship ans scientists who discovers Natural laws/ priciples and use themto invent new technologies get famous amonng people  while all these areultimately sourced in God.The scientis and technologists just uncovered whatwas already there and use that knowledge for purposes that attracts humanbeing under the influence of Nature. This is of course great. But, if theauthor of human beings including all scientists and technologists is God,all that human beings do indivitually or together are all authored by God.Our Sages continually wanted to remind themselves and others that they arenot the source or authors. At that time, there was no other competitive religion to claim my religion is better than yours. So, they were no need to establish thatI as the saint of my religion has authored this scripture or that. The habit of ascribing authorship came later when those saints had left the World and their disciples or fans wanted to enjoy the satisfactionthat their particular gurus were so great. Knowledge is great - there is no glory in what the knowledge is, how it was acquired or who first acquired it. That is what Santana Dhrma or Gita's teachings are all about. 
 
Basudeb Sen

------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is/are no scripture/s in any religion of the world which are direct word
of God. Atharava Veda clearly mentions when omnisicent principle Atma (soul) was
provided to human beings Vedas were revealed. Human soul contains all the
harmonised divine, spiritual and material knowledge. Bhagavad Gita is part of
Mahabharta edited by Maharsi Vyasa. Mahabharta is Vedas retold and Bhagavad Gita
is a perfect summarised Vedic Metaphysics also known as 109th Upanishad.
Bhagavad Gita rightly says highest virtue is the study of Vedas. later many
Vedic thoughts enterd New Testament (Bible) through Plato who spent a number of
years in the company of Vedic Rsis and Munnies.
Vedas advise develop scientific temper and improve Vedic
thoughts/guidelines/teachings known to human souls.
with regards
Prem Sabhlok

--------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Just had Glance of postings. In Geetha itself it starts with ,"Ithi
Upanashidshu". Means come from upanashids. Bagavan has also said that Geetha was
said earlier to Soorya Devaa (Sun God). So Geetha or upanashids are rules laid
down on creation and one who follows benefits. I just imagine the pains and time
taken by so many sadhaks to answer, whether Geetha is true or not, said by human
or by God, Etc. This same question arose many times from people to many saints
including Buddha. But to Sadaks surprise all saints remained silent. But only
Namadev and Buddha answered. Namadev: Oh man, if you could attempt a little of
Bakthi rather than doubt, I can reply. To understand your doubt, may be few
births needed. A king asked Buddha what is divinity ahimsa etc. Buddha remained
quite. But then a very old man from China came there, prostrated to Buddha and
said, "I do not know when i will understand Sat". Just before the old man left,
the king asked what was the age of the man. But the old man replied he is just 7
years old. Shocked king could not understand. The old man said, "I am about 80
years, but 73 years lost in clearing doubts, last 7 years I understood that just
have faith in God, rest leave it." Sadaks do you know why many saints kept
quiet?.
B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

If you think/guess BhagavadGita is completely derived from the Upanishads, you
should ask yourself "Why then BhagavdGita is honored as another source of
knowledge in presence of those Upanishads and BrahSutras in Prasthaantrayi to
establish any fact of Vedaanta?". If you have studied Upanishads, BrahmSutra and
BhagavdGita honestly, you might be able to understand. If not, I would suggest
you to take a look at "Gita Rahasya" written by Bal Gangadhar TilakJi while he
was in prison fighting for the Independence of India.

Although, in Skand PuraaNa, Lord Shiva glorifies BhagavadGita as "the essence of
all (not 8 or 10 or 108 or 220) the Upanishads"(SARVOPANISHADO GAAVO DOGDHAA
...), Shri ShankaraachaaryaJi does not hesitate saying "BhagavdGita is the
essence of Vedas" (..GITAASHAASTRAM SAMASTVEDAARTHASAARASANGRAH..)in beginning
of his Bhasya/Interpretations of GitaJi.

Dear Respected PanditJi, I think you know what to do when some thing is not
clear. I would suggest you to list down all the doubts/ difficulties noticed by
you while studying BhagavadGita and then approach the learned ones or their
works. You can choose "Saadhak Sanjeevani" as one of the great works through
which Swami RamsukhdasJi clearly says there is no any contradiction in
BhagavdGita.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, if we have some scriptures in written form, some human being must have
written them out. But writing out some words are not the Creation of
Scriptures. The Creation of scriptures involved creation of human beings,
with minds to think about, invent words to speak with and design scripts and
languages to write with. Those who thought about the Creator who created
all that is in the universe along with human beings sensed that what they
realized as the Truth and priciples in respect of God, the creator and the
universe his creation are nothing but flowed from God the Creator and source
of all that is in the Universe and beyond. So, they ascribed the authorsip
of all that knowledge and mantras and literature that came to be written out
later and called scriptures much later, to God. That is why mantras in
scriptures and anything else in this World is of divine origin in Santana
Dharma. This is as much true of any scientific Truth like Newton's law or
Einstein's relativity or string theory of Hawkins as the scriptures - all
authored by the Creator. We say Sun gives us light and we say Balmiki
composed the Ramayana and I have written this post in response to your
question but we know that all these has happened because God created all
these.
Basudeb Sen

---------------------------------------------------------

Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar,

MY THOUGHTS .......
Based on what we have read, learned, we know that MAN has evolved from apes. For
a few million years, he
was like an animal...That was Satya Yug. When he came out of caves, he
started practicing Agriculture, so that food was assured and he had some
spare time to think about the Nature around...He was amazed to
experience the powers of Nature...it was but natural to conceive and
Almighty Creater, who should be pleased to let MAN live peacefully on
this Planet Earth...That is how God, Ishwar, Allah and the like were
conceived in human brain....Even now animals do not know who is God,
Ishwar, Allah and the like...The more-than-average men were able to
think about the Spirituality...they founded religions, wrote scriptures
and holy books. Thus religions and scriptures are manmade...the
culmination of intelligence and imagination of Great Thinkers of the
Past (GTPs)...

Gee Waman


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Co Seekers,
All the confusion arises out of language and the difference between the meaning
of the words being conveyed and the meaning of that word understood by the
receipient. Therefore it is mandatory to know the meaning of the term God,
avatar, messanger of God etc.
As a matter of fact any word devoid of relativity spoken by any individual is
the work and word of God, And as a paradox language and its words exist on
relativity and duality. whereas the God is beyond all duality.
A duality(language and its words) are being used to described non duality(God)
which can never be successful come what may.
Everything said by someone whenever is the figment of his imagination and
perception of the reality. Ashtavakra Gita also suggests same and advices
Sadhakas on the spiritual journey to remain in the self to be liberated and
spiritual/


Kindest regards and greetingsDr. Ay.Ky.Mukhii
--------------------------------------------------------------

Vispiji,


Glad that the utterances were of help. Do not thank me. Thank Lord KrishNa as He
is the ONLY ONE who speaks in all forms ...


Regards.


Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari
Namaste!

There seems to be an inconsistency, between Brother Vyas' comments in brackets
below, and the information gleaned by me below dealing with a subject which
vexes me, well at least the terminologies:

[The Holy Gita is the voice of God. Vedas are the breaths of God.]

Ex Sacred Books of Hinduism
(Hinduism A Perspective)
The four categories of vedas are Rig, yajus, sAma, atharva. vedas are the voice
of the Divine preserved as it was heard by the sages and hence they are called
shRuti. There is another set of scripture are the things remembered from the
voice of God. They are called smRuti.

Ex Hinduism: The Journey of India's Soul
Now the Bhagavad-Gita or the Song Celestial demands our immediate attention. It
is the scripture par excellence. The Gita is the life-breath of Hinduism. The
Gita not only tells us to realise God, but it also tells us how. The Gita
introduces three principal paths toward God-realisation: Karma Yoga, the path of
action; Jnana Yoga, the path of knowledge; and Bhakti Yoga, the path of
devotion. Emotional devotion and philosophical detachment not only can but must
run abreast to fulfil the Divine here on earth. This sublime teaching of the
Gita knows no equal. Without hesitation, a devout Hindu can say that the Gita
has been the solace of his whole life and will be the solace of his death.

Ex Servetus, Science and the Breath of God
In most religions, "breath" is a metaphor for God. "Breath on me breath of God,
fill me with life anew." In Hinduism, Prajapati, the primal spirit, is asked how
many gods there are. He tells of over 19,000 names recorded. Then he says, "In
truth, there is only one God, BREATH." Without breath, no other Gods exist

Note : Vaasishtha says categorically the Veda-s are the highest authority.

If any learned sadhak can further comment on the above I would find it most
useful, thank you.

Om ... Shanti ...

Mike.
----------------------------------------------------------------

The orgins of gita, what do you mean bhagwaan


the origins of gita is the upanishads, please read all especially Katha
upanishad all of what teachings there are in gita are in the upanishads it is
simply a different era to try and get accross the essential message in which
there are lots of faults in Gita as is modern terms as there are contradictions
as well
regards
pandit Tularam

--------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Naga Narayanji your answer satisfies me totally.
Sadhak Vispi


---------------------------------------------------

Namaste

In terms of the content, the origin of GITA is mainly the Upanishads and other
Hindu scriptures. In the context of author, the origin of GITA is Bhagavan.


As for other scriptures and 'worshiping other gods,' GITA tells us:

GITA 9:23/25 --

Even those devotees, who endued with Shraddhâ, worship other gods, they too
worship Me alone, O son of Kunti, (but) by the wrong method.

For I alone am the Enjoyer, and Lord of all Yajnas; but because they do not know
Me in reality, they return, (to the mortal world).

Votaries of the Devas go to the Devas; to the Pitris, go their votaries; to the
Bhutas, go the Bhuta worshippers; My votaries too come unto Me


Ram Ram,
Deosaran Bisnath
--------------------------------------------------------


Hari Om

There is no difference between a Realised Soul , even when that soul is in human
body , and God. All the Scriptures including Gita have emanated out of Realised
Souls. When, ultimately, everything is God and there is nothing except God
existing, any distinction becomes futile. The Holy Gita is the voice of God.
Vedas are the breaths of God. The words of realised souls only become
Scriptures. The Holy Gita in its present shape of 700 verses etc might have come
out of lips of Lord Krishna and pens of Ved Vyas and Lord Ganesha...but its
teachings are as eternal as is humanity , purusha or prakriti.

Scriptures are subject matter of 'belief' (maanana / acceptance) not of
'knowledge' ! Rightly , therefore, the question of any questioning of their
contents does not arise. Where is any scope of doubt (question) where only
'belief' operates? Both God and God's Voice viz Gita are subject matter of
'belief' !! You have to 'accept' them first, the 'knowledge' comes later on.

It is also a true statement by the Questioner that unlike all other religions ,
the Sanatan Dharma has no founder in specific. Similarly its Scriptures are also
eternal. Their teachings/principles are as eternal as are existences of Purusha
and Prakruti (Jeeva and Jagat); and of course of Parameshwar ( Jagdish)....and
of VIVEKA (Discrimination between Purusha and Prakruti) !


Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------------------

Hari SharaNam,

The very first shloka of Dhyaana/Meditation on GitaJi says:

PAARTHAAYA PRATIBODHITAAM BHAGAVATAA NAARAAYANENA SWAYAM,
VYAASEN GRATHITAAM PURAAN-MUNINAA MADHYE MAHAABHAARATAM |

which means



"O Bhagavad-gita, thou hast been instructed to Arjuna, the son of Prtha by the
Lord Himself and afterward thee were included within the Mahabharata by the
ancient sage Vyasa"

Unless this point is understood/accepted, I have a doubt whether someone will be
close to understand even a part of GitaJi forget about the whole essence & its
origin. But to calm down the curiosity, one could study Varah PuraaNa, Garuda
PuraaNa, Padma PuraaNa or the works by our many many great Vedic
Saints/Accharyaas glorifying the divinity of GitaJi for last few thousand years.

With this short reply, I pray the Truth to reveal the Truth to the aspirants to
destroy such confusions and stop throwing individual's confusions to others.

May all be blessed!
Niteesh Dubey

-----------------------------------------------------


-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Dear Vispi,
A short answer is if you wish to look into the origins of the various
holy books, scriptures and such. You have the web at your disposal, you can
study and evaluate various scholarly works on the the subject of scriptures. It
can be very absorbing! It seems at a cursory inspection, that the books you
spoke of have been compiled and or refined.
The unifying common point is 'The Supreme', like the apex of a triangle, Guru
Nanak, Muhammad, Jesus, ..... all express the absolute reality in their own
manner.
I have always, where possible, juxtapose various sources on the one
subject, I have long since seen unity in apparent diversity.
To show you what I mean I will show a common understanding of the
'Oneness of The Supreme' seen through different eyes:

Sankara Saranam's comments in his book 'God Without Religion' :
"... Stated differently, ours is a world where countless individuated
selves, human and nonhuman, of the one infinite self perceive and
project in accordance solely with their sense of self, Here, the narrow idea of
self is the only source of ignorance; the expansive idea, the only wellspring of
knowledge."

Kahlil Gibran in 'The Prophet':
"... And if you would know God, be not therefore a solver of riddles.
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud,
outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands
in trees.

Sri Krsna with a comment from Swamiji:
Every such thing that is glorious, brilliant or powerful, know that, to be a
manifestation, of a spark of My splendour. 10/41
Comment:—
'Yadyadvibhutimatsattvam srimadurjitameva va'—Whatever glory,
brilliance, power, beauty or any other singularity, appears in animate
or inanimate things, and persons etc., should be known as a
manifestation, of a spark of the Lord's splendour.

The first two of course are not scripture, but are none the less
profound, and in accordance with scripture.

I consider with an expansive mind set you will encounter the expression of 'The
Supreme Absolute', in so many ways, instead of falling into the trap of, "My
religion is better than yours", you will see God expressed in them all, and in
the words of poets, movement of dancers, and in the
strokes of the artist.......

Om ... Shant ...

Mike.

-------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhak V.J

Does it matter ?

warm regards,

Gokul

---------------------------------------------------

As has been rightly pointed out by all sadaks, it is not important to know who
wrote the books.
There is no way of verifying the same even if we know.

These books may have been the contributions of many wise and enlightened people
over hundreds or thousands of years.
They may have also created Gods and Goddesses simply because such creations
helped the mankind to come out of the
worst periods and survive against all odds...

The purpose/intention behind writing the book has been to pass the wisdom
developed over thousands of years
for the good of mankind, so that mankind could live in peace, harmony, joy and
happiness. And it has happened....

World is at its best period where people are communicating easily with each
other. Traveling, comforts,
enjoyments, etc....all has become so easy....So much has been created and being
created everyday.

So, the focus should be to get to the truth, understand, experiment and
experience it.......
and be the happiness...

Sushil Jain

------------------------------------------------

Shri Krishnah Sharanam Mama



The query posed by sadhak Shri Vispi Jokhi is in fact the very first step to
know what is God and who is Krishna. Good, and there is nothing to offend any
one. Let us start from the beginning.



Talking of cosmos, there are billions of galaxies and universes – ours is one.
Just like we know of a Brahma, Vishnu, and Mahesh (Shiva) of this universe who
are known to create, sustain and dissolve the world, so also there are billions
of Brahmas, Vishnus and Shivas of those billions of universes, one set for each,
whose existence has been assigned for the purposes mentioned above. These
considered offices or positions, rather than the actual names. Thus, like
several departments and their incharges in an organization, there are several
demigods who only have limited powers. However, there is only one God who has
assigned those `powers' to the Brahmas, Vishnus, Shivas and other demigods, and
who is called variously by different names – Super Consciousness, Bhagavan,
Parameshwar, Brahman, Sachchidananda, God, etc. He is the controller of the
entire cosmos and the universes therein. He is omnipotent, omnipresent,
sentient, unborn, eternal,…..all that we have heard about.



Thus, when we talk of Avatars, they are the incarnations of God, not of Vishnu
as is erroneously popular. The ten major incarnations or avatars that we know of
are of that God. For each avatar, there was a specific purpose starting from
Matsyavatar. Thus, in all but one Avatars, the full and all attributes or powers
of God were not revealed and they did not perform the `tasks' other than those
for which they took the incarnation. They are therefore known as `Anshavatars'
(part incarnations), including Rama, who is `Maryada Purushottam'. Although God
Himself, yet he was Anshavatar and remained within a maryada (the beliefs,
regulations, ethics of society).

Only the Avatar or descension of God as Krishna was the total incarnation
wherein He performed all those deeds which were sought from Him, no matter what.
That is why He was His own descension or incarnation, called `Poornavatar' or
the whole incarnation exhibiting all the attributes that He, as God, possessed.
He is also known as `Pushti' avatar in which He fulfilled and bestowed all the
desires of His devotees. In Gita, Krishna opulently reveals His own self to
Arjuna. If one reads Gita carefully, he would fully realize the form of Krishna.
He even reveals `His larger self' (virat swaroop). Thus `Vasudeva sarvam',
Vasudeva is God becomes quite evident.

Although they make take any form, including human, the avatars of God are not
made of the five gross elements (earth, water, fire, air and space) of which we
humans and all the material world is made. They may appear to be doing the human
acts, that essentially is only a `performance' or Leela. To know Krishna or God
is beyond the framework of material nature – the body, mind, intellect, and ego,
since God is not `material' but divine. One has to travel beyond these
attributes of Nature or prakriti to comprehend God. The saints have done with
total surrender unto Him, as they could know Him only through His grace, not
through their efforts.

Coming to the scriptures – no scriptures are `written' by god. Only and only
Vedas were `revealed' by God originally to Brahma. The Vedas are known as
`Apourusheya' or divine and have not been ever `written' by any one. They have
been only revealed. Then Veda Vyas classified them in four parts, later their
commentaries in the form of Upanishads, Aranyaks, Shrutis, Puranas, etc etc were
written and codified or classified by the Rishis or seers at different points of
time. The hymns of the Vedas are attributed to different Rishis, because they
classified them. Although sacred, Vedas are essentially treasure of knowledge
(the root `vid' from which veda is derived means `to know'). Any sacred book can
be called a scripture and is nothing to do with the author.

Gita is attributed to Ved Vyas (Krishna Dvaipayan Ved vyas) (there have been
many Ved Vyasas) who visualized the entire Gita and all the proceedings during
the Mahabharat era.

I hope this will help to some extent to comprehend the concept of God,
descensions and scriptures.


With regards,


K.N. Sharma
---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhaks
Certainly, Gita was out of discourse by Lord Krishna to Arjun in the battle
field of Kurushetra. Krishna was Avtar of Lord Vishnu, though born as human
being to Vasu and Devki but manifested himself into the Role of God while
addressing Gita to Arjun.
Greetings

G K Agrawal

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Origin of Gita

This is a simple and straight-forward question in its appearance as all of us
have brain-stormed ourselves to "do" everything. In child-psychology, they call
this symptom as "artificialism". The child believes that everything is created
by humans - particularly it parents. So is our notion that everything should be
"written" by somebody. The intrinsic artificialism in the so-called adults who
are supposed to have transcended their childhood limitation surfaces every now
and then. But, our belief to have outgrown the limitations does not let us see
things otherwise.

Therefore, if you really question the very question to its very roots, it starts
unveiling its complexity. Why do we think knowledge belongs to a brain? Again,
borrowing from psychology, all that brain can accomplish is to "assimilate" and
"accommodate" the extrinsic stimulii received trhough the sensorial nerves and
the corresponding memories of similar occurances in the past from its own
repository. In other words, whatever a brain can fathom is nothing but the
knowledge "induced" into it over years of its existence. If anything any brain
can accomplish is only the information received, processed and reposited how can
it really claim any authorship?! Then, how can any claim any authorship at
all??!! One who seeks ownership in life is natural to seek papers, patents, etc.
in one's name ... but, how can one who is seeking to drop the very notion of
ownership in all forms - knowership, doership as well as enjoyership - can ever
claim to be an author for anything that is transacted through the individual
system???!!!

Therefore, my friend, all our seers refused to put a stamp or signatures in
front or end of anything that happened to transmit through the corresponding
individual systems.

Another question on the question. What has an origin anything to do in its value
as such. It IS. That is its value ever. One's is-ness is sufficient for all
possible purposes. The origin is just incidental in appearance and a myth in
reality. Can we ever retrace the path from which a single syllable came to our
mind? The origin is infinitude in the very first query and each will tread
infinite paths backwards. Where did I hear a sound that I love now? How did it
reach the ones who happen to transmit the same to me?? Can anyone ever trace the
origin of any???

For your information Krishna was NOT the author even from mundane perspective. A
Krishna Dwaipayana is supposed to have fathomed the same based on his
appreciation of the already existing Upanaishads. His desciple passed on to a
Vaishampaayana down the lane who is supposed to have narrated the same to the
descendent of the very characters in the story. That narration is narrated to us
through so many channels of knowledge carriers ...

So is the bible according the hystorical notes that I happen to come across …
the jews who were obviously influenced by erstwhile Egyptian culture revolted
and escaped the landscape. They were persecuted by many - Greeks, Persians, etc.
- for centuries. After many centuries of their escape from Egypt, they started
collecting their ancient narrations to compile the same in the name Old
Testament ... who is the author here?! So is Kuran according to some historians
... it was compiled after couple of centuries it had been told. Mongols
destroyed the Baghdad library and the the scripture was rewritten … who is the
author here??!!

But, let us jolt the fixation we have nurtured on the "need for origin" … what
is its role? NOTHING! It is the scripture - be it Gita or Bible or Kuran - that
is of essence.

Also, let us jolt our notions of any possible authorship … how can any be an
author while every thought flows out of THAT to which all the thoughts
confluence in quanimity? It is THAT that can be an author, if at all our brain
needs the support of a potential author ... call it KrishNa or God or Allah ...
ONLY THAT is THE AUTHOR of any and all.

Historians seek the origins of the artifacts they are bewildered with …
spiritual seekers seek THE ORIGN of all that is revealed in everything. To a
true spiritual seeker ... anything and everything - be it Gita or a stone -
reveals THAT ORIGIN to the true seeker of The Truth. Whether I see The Truth is
what that matters ... not who could have written the wonderful treatise on The
Truth.

Then why waste our time in hair-splitting what could be the origin of Gita,
Bible, Kuran, etc.?! Shouldn't we be focusing on what these try to teach us and
what we can realize from them??!! Shouldn't we be channeling all our queries to
THAT into which everything is predisposed???!!!

Respects.

Naga Narayana.
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Dear Friends
I think i have offended some persons on this group. accept my apologies. I think
the basic conclusion lies in our universal consciousness and oneness. All that
is is sat and therefore there is no original writing or author except the one
and only one God. At the end Krishna Jesus Mohamed all are one all are God.
Sadhak Vispi

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----------------------

All spiritual books have been written by 'human beings' only ; written by "
Rishis" , the Truth Seekers, highly Evolved Human Beings in Satvic State; may be
developed through analysis, observation , reflection through 'meditation' and
told (writing was not there in India in Ancient Time) from Guru to Sishya
Parampara.

RATHINDRA PRASAD LAHIRI
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scriptures are the direct words of God and as such cannot be questioned.

Krishna never says that he cannot be questioned. Arjuna questioned him in Gita
and Krishna answered his questions.

Please read the Gita (Sadhak Sanjivini by Swami Ramsukh Das) carefully and you
will find your question meaningless.

If you still have question after reading complete Sadhak Sanjivini, then I would
be happy to answer your question.

Regards,
Gaurav Mittal
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Dear Sadaks,
1.By questioning anything on spirituality has NO end SriAdi Sankara (Who Saw
God) said in his script Vivekachudamanai. Still worst, HE says, this persons who
questions will not liberate even over the 4 period of 4 Bhramas. (Millions of
years)- Pattanthu Sastrani---------- Nah labyathe Bhrama Satanra Repini.
2. Probably Sri Vispi does not know it is great sin to question God head or HIS
disciples. So he has to read sastras to an extent or find out from SAT Guru his
doubts in a respectable way. Say he should ask like this- " I am ignorant and I
am unable to understand the true hiddenmeaning- Oh Guru Please enlighten me."
3. Vispi has mistaken that Avathars are of flesh and bone. Forget Avathars which
is more superior to Saints. Saints were there through whose body sword passed
off as it went in air, fire not harmed, they walked on fire. Sri Vispi certainly
would have heard of this. But he never thought that they are NOT oridinary
humans. Only from super human naturally holy scripts arise as they are fit to
write them or tell them.
4. Bible was written by a such person. 10 commandments (Which matches Hinduism)
was given to Moses.
5.In 18th century Saint Veera Bhramam in Cuddapah District, Andra Pradeshwrote
KAALA GYANAM (Prediction of time happenings). In it it is said, that Tower of
Kalahasti Temple will break down in 20 Century. It did happen.
B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have a valid question and the answer lies in the understanding of thebasic
tenets of the Sanatana Dharma. Nothing in this World is done by anyhuman being -
it is a myth and keeps human being under illusion ofdoer-ship. Thewords that we
speak, the words that we write and other actionsthat we seem to be doing are all
the work of prakriti. The Self or theConsciousness does noting. The self is one
and undivided. It is the Brahmanor the Source of that is in the entire Creation
we percieve and beyond. Thatis the one and only one God. If God is the source
of any and every thing,then He is also the source of Prakriti or Nature or
Natural forces andprinciples or laws. So the sages who heard from the
consciousness, thenspoke and recited them and then finally wrote them out could
not claim thatthese were their work or doing. The had to acknowledge that the
source ofall these knowledge in Vedas and Upanishads is God. As has been said
inChandiStrotta: ' Ya Devi Sarbobhuteshu Buddhi Rupen Sansthitha' meaning
thatGod only is the one that exists in the intelligence of all human beings.
Soall authorship of everything is ultimately sourced in God.Yes, ultimately some
human being or other uttered each sloka for the firsttime and others listened
and recited to others and still some authors wrotethem down. But are thet real
source or authors of the slokas? The realsource of authorship lies with GOD.But
it is the Illusion created by God that makes people believe in humanauthorship
ans scientists who discovers Natural laws/ priciples and use themto invent new
technologies get famous amonng people while all these areultimately sourced in
God.The scientis and technologists just uncovered whatwas already there and use
that knowledge for purposes that attracts humanbeing under the influence of
Nature. This is of course great. But, if theauthor of human beings including all
scientists and technologists is God,all that human beings do indivitually or
together are all authored by God.Our Sages continually wanted to remind
themselves and others that they arenot the source or authors. At that time,
there was no other competitivereligion to claim my religion is better than
yours. So, they were no need toestablish thatI as the saint of my religion has
authored this scripture orthat. The habit of ascribing authorship came later
when those saints haveelft the World and their disciples or fans wanted to enjoy
the satisfactionthat their particular gurus were so great. Knowledge is great -
there is noglory in what the knowledge is, how it was acquired or who first
acquiredit. That is what Santana Dhrma or Gita's teachings are all about. There
are many related postings, you may search on various blogspot under my name.
Basudeb Sen

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God can't be sensed with any of the six senses (senses of seeing, hearing,
tasting, smelling, touching and thinking) yet it is said in Gita (7:19) that God
is All and All is God. We better accept it as true and be Happy.

Do you see the Sun? You will say,"Yes, I see the Sun." WRONG. You never see the
Sun. Only an image of the Sun formed on the retina of the eye is experienced by
you, NOT the Sun is experienced. Similarly God is experienced by us and All
experiences are GOD ONLY, nothing else where this nothing is also GOD ONLY.

So be it.

Humbly Sadhak.

---------------------------------------------


Sir,
Mind wants to sleep through satisfactory answers.
Just see the basic issue yourself and then see if any book or person can give
you some hint.
Do not leave yourself to seek comforting answers from books or others.
You are considering as if Truth is a dead (material) thing and you can get it.
Truth is 'live'. It takes over, when the seeking ends.
Can one just become aware of the inner division to seek?
This awareness is the key.
You will know whether it is important to know about the authorship of the Book.
Y V Chawla

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ORIGINOF GITA: Gita----Divine discourse between Warrior Pandav Arjuna and Shri
Krishana, the human 2nd Avatar on this earth, just 5000 Yrs ago in the end of
DWAPUR YUGA at the Krukhestrya battle field, now written /compiled in bookish
form containing 700 Shlokas/18 chapters (Adhiyay), is nothing but an essence of
Vedic Knowledge regarding the manifestationof this Universe/Prikirti and the
journey of Jiva Atma clad in some sort of Solid Body through which it becomes
active to perform actions and its end i.e. union with Paramatma. It is
originated with the Vaikat form of this Prikriti and shall remain till …….!
Knowledge (GYAN) neverperish or vanishes. So Gita has no beginning, no
end.Krishna has declared this Giyan He imparted to SURYA in the beginning in the
4th Chapter Verse 1, of Gitaji.

Imam vivasvate yogam proctvan aham avayium:
vivisvan manve parah manurekshva kari abarvet

Hari Motwani

----------------------------------------------------------------


Just as the Bible was written by St Paul and not by Christ, the Bhagvat Geeta
was written by Veda Vyasa, whose real name was BaadaraayanKrishna Dvaipaayana,
since the place he was born was full of Badaris ( berries) and he was born on a
dveepa ( island ) in the river Yamuna, so his real name indeed was Krishna,
meaning dark. He wrote the Brahma sootra, the 18 Puraanas, the 4 vedas, the
Mahaabhaarata, and the Bhaagvat mahaapuraana.

So it is Veda Vyasa, who one listens to, when he says listen to Krishna.

Understand that without St Paul, there is no documentation of Christ, but
without Christ, there would have been no St Paul !!! Similarly, without the
historic Krishna, there would have been no Veda Vyasa, and without Veda Vyasa,
there would have been no documentation ofKrishna, unless the historic Krishna
and Vyas-ji are the same person.

Also, Dhritarashtra, Pandu, Vidura and Shuka are supposedly Vyasa'schildren,
making Arjun Vyasa's grandchild, and the historic Krishna ( afriend of Arjun ),
a figure that Vyasa has seen, met and known !!

Vyas has also made appearances in Mahabharat, where he comes, advises and
leaves.

Derive your own conclusions.


Durgesh Mankikar,MD

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Dear Sadhaks,

Respeccted Vispi Jokshi's reckoning is correct. All our gods are earlier
awakened humanbeings only. Then our ultimate god is sum of SOULS of living and
non living thing. That is paramathma(cosmic soul). None of the god can write
any books. All holy boooks are written only by awakened humanbeings. Most of
the books details their experience in achivements of their awakening. These
holy books are justGuide for other humanbeings to follow.

with namaskarams
S.vaidyanathan
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