Monday, May 31, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: Seeking Advice on Dilemma Regarding Life Partner

 

SHREE HARI RAM RAM

THIS BRINGS CLOSURE TO THIS POSTING ! WE HAVE MANY QUESTIONS IN THE PENDING QUEUE AND NEED TO MOVE ON ! RAM RAM

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Respectable sadhaks,

I am 44 years old govt. employee, residing in Delhi having two daughters, 19 yrs and 13 yrs old.  My wife is also a govt. employee.  For the last  more that 20 years I have been living spiritual life.  I am blessed with the satsang of Swami Ramsukhdasji and other saints at Rishikesh for many years.  Daily I read Gitaji and Ramcharitmanas and do Dhyana sadhana.

My great problem is that despite giving sensual pleasures as seva to my life partner for last 20 yrs. of marriage, still she is unsatisfied and wants me to continue with the sexuality and worldly pleasures, which at this point of time when I feel myself totally disinterested in worldly pleasures and desires, do not want to go with it.  Whenever I try very politely to make her understand the truth of life and sensual pleasures, she gets annoyed and starts quarreling.  Now the agony is that she has started threatening me for divorce.  Though I am not afraid of divorce, as the same will be more conducive in my sadhana, but the problem is that if I opt for the same, it will have a very bad effect on the future of my daughters who are at present my utmost responsibility (till they are marriaged).  Under these circumstances I fail to concentrate fully on my sadhana.  If I opt to continue with the present situation, apprehension of her being currupt will be high.
Please suggest me a viable solution.  I can compromise on every point except to indulge in sensual pleasures.

Ram Ram
Raj Kumar

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NEW POSTING

Dear Friends,

Reading this thread with great interest and am impressed with the depth of the
replies. Brahmacharya is not merely an enforced celibacy but it is a life lived
with an awareness and union with the universal consciousness. Dharma is laid
down in the scriptures and we must all follow our dharma. Dharma must dictate
the pursuit of Artha and Kama to achieve moksha. As far as the relationship in a
marriage is concerned the union is physical, physiological and spiritual only
then the marriage is successful. In an ideal relationship the physical act of
sex for procreation is a sublime duty of the partners. Sex for lust and physical
pleasure with one partner can also fall within the ambit of fulfillment of
desires if it is with mutual consent, in a spirit of giving and guilt free. If
this is absent then it is not dharma and is a waste of energy and is not in tune
with the universal consciousness. As we progress on the upward path of shreyas
we will transcend the need for such indulgences and both partners in a marriage
will accept true Brahmacharya. I hope my comments do not offend any one on this
forum. I humbly accept that I have a long path to traverse before i am in any
position to advise any body on this forum.
Sincerely,
Sadhak

Vispi Jokhi

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Thu May 20, 2010 7:33 am
Jai Shri Krishna
Life teaches one that rarely is anyone ever satisfied. You are fortunate you have
experienced this early on in your life. This is the truth. Imperishable can never be
satisfied with the perishable. this is everyone's experience, but they continue to live
in denial.
Swami Sharnanandji Maharaj when asked
Why must we give happiness to someone?
he replied -
If you have taken pleasure from someone, then you become indebted to them, therefore it is inevitable to
give enjoyment to others. The one who gave you happiness, has taught
you to give happiness. You cannot give happiness to the donor of
happiness. Therefore giving happiness to those that are suffering is
freeing ourselves from indebtedness.
Hope this helps - Radha Rani




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Thu May 20, 2010 6:18 am

Dear Raj Kumarji and Geeta
Sadhakas,Namaskar.

Your personal behaviour is governed by the
geans and chromosomes inherited from your ancestors. Yours and your Life
Partner's genes and chromosomes are different and hence the conflict. 
Your family responsibility is your first duty. She does not want the
sensual pleasures for all the 24 hours of the day. Spare some time for
your spiritual activities and try to involve your family also in that
activity.

Gee Waman

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Shree Hari

 || Ram Ram ||

 Dear Raj Kumar Ji, thank you for the question!

 Thank you for taking the bold step in letting this forum know your major personal issue, even though this is a very difficult problem but you are not alone, many families face similar situations. In my humble opinion it is difficult to advise through e-mail due to the complexity of a personal situation.

 I am happy to learn that you have interest in Ramayana and Gita, the studying and knowing about these is time well spent. But the real benefit is when our objective becomes to imbibe these principles in our life. The scriptures are like a mirror for the mind. God resides in everyone's heart, we will be sees Him only when our mirror is clean (or when the mind is pure).  

 An advice from a saint, guru or a wise elderly person could prove to be very helpful. Based on Swamiji Maharaj's teachings, please reflect on the following thoughts:

 1). By God's grace no one gets a problem which he or she is not capable of solving even though may be seem very difficult. Pls. have courage that this situation can be managed.

 2). Swamiji Maharaj points out in the introduction of Sahak Sanjivani in Hindi that whatever situation good or bad we happen to get can invariably help us in progressing on a spiritual path.

 3). Bad situations are unwelcome by everyone but they do teach life's hard lessons. Many great men went through a lot of suffering. There is natural dispassion towards the world.

4). Our scriptures lay heavy stress on adhering to Dharma at every stage of life, may it be at any level, individual, family, society, national or Manav Dharma. We do not need to search for what our Dharma is, it is given to us in terms of circumstances and situations unsought for. 

5). In Snatana Dharma the life span of 100 years into four stages or Ashramas - Brahmcharya (Student, 0-25 years), Grihastha (26-50 years), Vanprastha (51-75 years) and Sanyasa (76-100). These days, life expectancy for average person is less than 100 years, so in your case it is the beginning of Vanprasha ashrama, which means slowly leaving the ties, developing detachment, doing service to others (including immediate, larger family and socity without any expection 

6). Our scriptures four Pursharthas, Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. This order is very meaningful, Dharma is first here, which says that Artha (Wealth and possesions etc.), Kama (Worldy Desires) should be according to Dhrama then the Mokhas is assured. The individual initiative effort in terms of new actions is required for Dharma and Moksha while for Artha and Kama, it is mostly governed by Prarabhda (fate). Swamiji Maharaj advises - A Sadhka should be happy with what comes as a result Prarabhda and he should be careful about new actions. Our righteous duty is to protest the right of others on us. Our duty is not judge how others are performing their duty (Exception - our duty to children).

7. Our scriptures say very clearly, the objective of physical union (in Grastha Ashrma) is to promote progeny only and it is not meant to derive sensuous pleasure. If we want to pursue the spiritual path, it is a must to follow the restraint. 

8). A sadhka on a spiritual path knows very well about the mission of life, it is the union of individual consciousness with the supreme consciousness or Paramatma. The joy we derive by association with the worldly objects is transitory. It also has a place in our earlier phase of life. If we do not graduate from this stage, we have to continue to stay in the cycle of birth and death.

9)..To keep calm, content and happy in the midst of what comes is the austerity of mind (Tapas) Gita 17-16)

10). One of the best away to work on a problem is team work, with mutual understanding and respect. When there is good communication in relationships, there is no problem which cannot be solved, employing softer emotions also helps. A person's heart can be as soft as butter or as hard as a rock, depending upon how we approach it.

11). If nothing seems to work, with a sincere heart call out on God for help. We all know that the worldly mother cannot ignore a crying child and then how can the Divine Mother not come for help!.     

|| Ram Ram || 

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura

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Date: Wed May 12, 2010 11:06 pm

Hari Om

At the same time, wastage of a single drop of semen for fun is a terrible sin. Gruhustha Ashram does not mean for a sadhak to be an entertainment place. So long as you are doing your DUTY , you are entitled to indulge in carnal pleasures, but not just for FUN. Procreation- giving birth to children is your DUTY, once you are in Gruhustha. Husband has a right to seek cooperation from wife and vice versa. It is your DUTY to then indulge into physical union. That Kaam has been stated to be a 'vibhuti' of Paramatma. (BG 7:11). There is nothing wrong in that.

But other than that....Scriptures do not permit free play. What is the difference then between a human and an animal? Even animals have appointed seasons to indulge into physical union. They mostly do it in secret (except perhaps a dog and a bitch). A Sadhak therefore is entitled to indulge into necessary austerities in this regard. You have not been given human birth to indulge in sensual pleasures. Hell is the outcome for such pleasures. If it is for procreation- no two opinions that it is your duty. But if it is just for FUN or for meeting demands of body...it is not your duty to fulfill that always. Can such demands of body ever get satisfied ? No ! A human has to renounce them ultimately, such desires can not be fulfilled by consumption.

You can not please all around you, under the garb of DUTY. Your duty is what you CAN do, and what you SHOULD do.

Normally, a marriage is a bondage for a couple. Any sadhana does have a sobering impact on the other. It MUST. Hence talking out with spouse, fixation of common goals and cooperation are fundamentals of marriage. Who can run away where from this bondage? You have to go through the rigor , you have to stay put. Divorce - easier said than done. Divorce does not help in sadhana of a householder, it destroys everything in a fraction of a second. As a threat also it is dangerous. There are as many ways of getting Paramatma as are humans. You can always strive to correct your inner bhavas. If your better half or worse half is not in tandem with your approach ...it is her/his prerogative. You are concerned with your PERSONAL DUTY towards her/him only. If somebody gets corrupt merely because you are not doing what you should not be doing...you are not at fault and are not responsible. Each individual soul has its freedom and choice. You can simply do your OWN DUTY. You have no right or need to teach others a lesson, particularly when other has decided to take own course.

Such is human life. Gruhastha Ashram is not some fun place. It is an austerity in itself...here you and your sadhana , your concepts are put to acid tests...you are straightened out by Laws of Nature. Lord washes your eyes with tears till they are clean enough to behold the reality.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Date: Thu May 13, 2010 3:01 am

I am afraid, Shri Raj Kumar's dilemma is not genuine. I have replied to this earlier. I do not want to add anything in the form of advice. But my appeal to all the members  is that REMOVE SUCH MISCONCEPTS LIKE ABSTAINING FROM PHYSICAL-BODY NECESSITIES IS NOT THE MARK OF SPIRITUALITY. 


KARMENDRIYANI SAMYAMYA YAH ASTE MANASAA SMARAN 
IMDRIYAARDHAAN VIMOOdHAATMA MITHYAACAARAH SA UCYATE   2.6, BG

Food and breathing are body necessities Are you stopping them for spirituality sake or for spiritual life. one does not have to give up anything for God's sake except selfishness and more than necessary indulgence in the body and such related matters.

Gurus and swamees who preach impractical abstentions are fakes. They lead to Soonya nothing. Beware of them; they are worse than terrorists. 

krishna

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Date: Thu May 13, 2010 12:56 pm

Relations … Abstinence ... Digvijaya … 

The apparent pertinence on abstinence in this question for spiritual attainment is lopsided, I would opine. The notion "giving sensual pleasures as seva to my life partner for last 20 yrs" makes you as dependent as you could have been on the very sensuality as such. What bound you to give this "seva" to your life partner in the first place without which you would not have your daughters on whom you are worrying now? Actually, what obligated you to seek a life partner as such?? Answer is very simple ... you are trying a notional coating on some inherent desires and fears of your own using the so-called spirituality. Whether it is sex or any other crave ... you cannot win over it by sugarcoating the same with high sounding notions in the name of spirituality. Trust me ... higher the notions sound, tougher the associated sugarcoating would become even to resist, let alone surpassing the same! 

Abstinence is to be practiced for attaining freedom and never to build notional bondage around oneself even in the name of spirituality or Satsang or Sadhana or religion or even God. We build relations in all the directions only to anchor oruselves to our notional identities we gain in the process and tie ourselves to the associated objects/notions imposing immobility on ourselves. It is the sense of immobility that drives us feel miserable in all the dilemmas, including this one, as we feel constricted. Having the core nature of being ever-mobile within, we obviously feel like fish out of water gasping for a breath in such self-imposed constriction. The tendency to build relations and identities continues in spite of changing the field of our actions ... even with the so-called spiritual seeking. 

The idea of spirituality is to break open the coccoon of notions and snap the bondage that keeps it intact to let go oneself to be universally free. Abstinence is one powerful tool to help oneself toward that. But, if one builds a coccoon out of the very tool to build a notional cage for oneself, it cannot help anymore! It is an axe to be used to snap all the chains, ropes and threads that bind one into a coccoon enroute. If it is used as a tool to weave more webs around oneself ... it cannot help anymore!! It is a brush to be used to cleanse off all the masks we have painted on ourselves in the name of emotions within and relations around. Instead, if it is used to apply more paints to make more masks ... it cannot help anymore!!! Abstinence is a tool to attain THE ULTIMATE ... it is not THE ULTIMATE by itself! Just like any other tool, an abused tool or path or method would leave the seeker wandering around in circles around and around in a whirlpool of ignorance. 

Abstinence is the weapon to facilitate Digvijaya, to win over all the emotions (Dik, directions within) and the relations (Dik, directions around) systematically. Abstinence is not to create a void within to be filled with some alternative … it is to FILL the person within to one's completeness so that one need not depend on anything else to be. Only one who is FILLED to one's completeness at one's core can win over the otherwise invincible web of desires and fears. 

Therefore, my suggestion is that we shall adapt the powerful tools such as abstinence with care, caution and truthfulness. 

Regards.

Naga Narayana.

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Date: Wed May 12, 2010 2:40 am

Dear Sadaks & Sri Deepti & Vasundara,
Try NOT to listen two side stories. Have trust in Mr.Raj Kumar. Presuming that he is telling false matter is itself is Wrong. Sadaks should always be positive in thinking. Now listening to Mr.Raj Kumar wife complaint is only going to be like TV  Mega serial, which is forbidden to earnest Sadaks. Spend more time in Namasankreethan. Just reply and forget- instead remember Sri Ram day in day out. Listening two side complaints will deviate your path to liberation. You are going to get attached to stories. There were great Rishies who abstained from pleasures for years. Their wives least complained. But the Rishi new his Dharma created a floating palace in the air with much better modern facilities of today and gave pleasures to his wife. But the Rishi was never attached to pleasures while giving company to his wife, but did his part. Source: Srimath Bagavath. Woman are blessed with much powerful senses to control even SUN and the universes by their chaste behaviors. Even Tri moorthires (Bagavan Bhrama-Shiva_Vishnu) were made infants by a lady. Can you ladies tell me her name?
B.Sathyanarayan

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II shree II
Dear Shri Raj kumar ji
Namaste!
God knows us more than we know ourselves.  Therefore give yourself bodily to your wife and your heart and mind to HIM. God loves them more who love HIM with their mind (Upasan kand) than in comparison to those who love HIM only with their body (KarmaKand)
Do not influence your wife in any way. When her time will come she will also turn to HIM where else can anyone go when He is everywhere? It is just that your spiritual levels are different that both of you are experiencing that way.(There are four distinct stages on the Path of Devotion KarmaKand; UpasanaKand; Dnyanakand and Dnyanouttar Bhakti)
Yours affectionately,
mahesh
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Tue May 11, 2010 4:04 pm
Thanks B.Sathyanarayan ji
The questions were for the sadak, Raj Kumar.    Questions came out of his statements and were posted as good points for manan and understanding the truth by him
Sushil Jain
 
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Wed May 12, 2010 12:31 am
-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Dear Raj Kumar,

Two of the great elders of this Satsanga , Brother Vyas and Sri Sathyanarayan, have given good advice and insight, how lucky you are, hang in there!
Now, to me it seems also that you apply meditation to your practice.

But first I will stand back and say right! Lost interest in the world, no longer interested in sex! Hmm you are depressed Brother!
But bear with me; in the West people often think that by launching off on the boat of meditation, they will glide across the sea of tranquility,  not realizing  this boat  needs a rudder and a firm hand,  without  a  firm destination, this boat  can take one into the slough of despondency, stormy oceans, dark fogs and so on. The Supreme Lord said to focus on Him when one meditates.

Meditation is a vast subject, but many things can happen; physical and emotional changes can happen , chemical changes can occur, even  in the brain, this is not all bad at all, but one must know how  to deal with  them !

Believe you me many mystics know these things, and have given guidance, ' The Dark Night of the Soul', is a commonly used term in the west, it however does herald the dawn of Divine Love.

Here is my advice. Look deep into your heart, not your intellect, look deep, see the love that dwells there pure as pure can be, ask your wife to be there when you do this, tell here not of lofty views that you have, but admit you are a child who is lost, because you are!

Surrender can be hard to do, but in purity easy to do. Understand that the wife you have can help you.  As  maha laksmi Dasiji said you may need guidance of some pure soul.

Maha laksmiji a minor point,  there are saintly souls all over the world, never loose sight of that!

Om... Shanti...

Mike. (K).

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Date: Wed May 12, 2010 6:30 am
Dear Sadhak,

My sadar pernam.

In my opinion, you have chosen the path of Karm-Yoga.  Accept the path of Karm in its entirety.   The body, which is the chariot of life has a role to play.  Your positive relationships with your spouse will make the journey more complete and enriching.

I would also mention that you have to look inside yourself to confirm that you are not hiding behind this religious path or religious teachings.  And the problem is something else. 

It is easy to blame others for our weaknesses and harder to face them.

If medical help can fix the issues that you are describing don̢۪t be afraid to seek those.

Finally, I do commend your self-less service to and love for humanity.   This is the path of salvation by Gita.

I would also mention that I am just a student of Gita and only understand parts of it.

Jai Shri Krishana. 

Suneel

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Date: Wed May 12, 2010 12:16 pm
Hari Om

A phase of Gruhashtha is harder than a phase (ashram) of Vaanprashtha/ Sanyaas. When you took decision of getting married, there was a resolve/decision/acceptance. You thereafter MUST go through the rigour or pain of that decision. You can't run away ! You must stay put, complete your obligations and thus your sadhana. Gautam Buddha developed a dispassion suddenly and left his home in the night like a thief leaving his young wife and infant child all alone. As the story goes, he became Realised Soul after a long long period of Sadhana. As the divine luck would have it ( 'heard' story goes on) , he came to his village after a long long period. The infant had become adult and wife aged. People asked Gautam as to whether he recalls his past. Gautam said yes ! People made him visit his home. He went and his wife asked him:

Sir ! I have a Question. That element… which you were searching and to get which you left me and an infant child mercilessly like a thief , was that element not there in this home.

Gautam replied: That element you are talking about was ONLY in this home and no where else, but had I not loitered outside, I would not have understood this reality. !!

A Story, not very true perhaps, but it has a point to prove. You can't take shelter of sadhana like that. 'Shruti' (Scriptures) do not favour you nor Yukti nor Anubhooti. You are not supposed to be a Sadhu at this age. When Eknaathji Maharaaj left his old Grand Mother and went to a Guru for becoming Sadhu, the Guru believed him. But when Guru came to know of his dereliction of duty , he wrote a message to Eknaathji... " Ekka ! Wahin Ruk Jaana" ( Eknaath, where ever you are at present, stay put there only). Eknaathji at that point was on the way in forest going to pilgrimage when message reached him. And he....sat there in the middle of jungle only, did not move an inch after getting message of Guruji. Stayed there only. Right there only where message was received by him. Later at that place only his grand mother reached, his home was built and till his grand mother breathed her last, he remained there only. Was he not a sadhak?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Sex is a part of life. Chastity should be observed in the first 25 years. The next 25 years is for married life. Next 25 years for spiritual pursuits with wife. Only the last 25 years is for sanyas means being alone. By not fulfilling your wife's maritial and conjugal rights which is your duty you will not gain spiritually. In fact sex is no bar to spirituality. Conversely chastity is no guarrantee of spirituality.

From: Hari Shanker Deo Date: Wed May 12, 2010 12:14 pm

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Date: Tue May 11, 2010 5:41 pm
What's the difference between a friend, a sister and a wife ?
You can share every secret of yours with a "lady" friend, except going to bed with her. The same is with your sister. What makes a woman your wife is exactly that---Sex. You are asking for a friendship, or sisterly love, but she wants a husband, not just a friend or a brother.
 
If you have parted with your obligations to your wife, set her free. If you part amicably, your children will understand and love you, as long as you spend time with them. If you keep constantly arguing and fighting about this issue, its not good for the children either.
 
Unless you want her to cook for you and clean up after you, then you need a cook and a maid, not a wife.
 

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

Tue May 11, 2010 7:16 am

Dear Rajkumarji,

I'm putting down my humble opinion here. To start with, I find that you have
created a strong limitation for yourself when you say "I can compromise on every
point except to indulge in sensual pleasures.". What else is there for you to
compromise? It requires time to come out of that mindset, but I feel if you want
to save your marriage, you have to be willing to come down. Buy time from your
wife. From your spiritual point of view you think you are compromising heavily,
but from her worldly point of view she will be thinking she is compromising
heavily. There is nothing wrong with you, there is nothing wrong with her. You
have taken abstinence from sensual pleasure too seriously in a circumstance
which does not favour it. You might want to focus on other aspects of
spirituality and come back to total abstinence much later. It is not a
compromise and there is nothing for you to feel guity. Nor are you doing any
kind of sacrifice. Everything is fine and you need to take time and do some
reconciliaton.

All the best.

Regards,
Sriram.

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Tue May 11, 2010 2:10 am
Hari Om

Gem of an advice by Vasudev Sathyanarainji. Basically, sadhana does not mean throwing away of mundane pleasures or not taking any indulgence. It is not in your hands to consume worldly pleasures or not consume worldly pleasures. BHOGA is subject matter of PRARABDHA and not PURUSHARTHA. Can you stop cool breeze passing through you? Can you stop warm heat wave touching you? Sadhana is not abstinence…sadhana is NOT taking selfish interest in the happenings around you. Sadhana is not indulging in to sensual pleasures for getting any enjoyment out of it. Sadhana is neither liking them, NOR DISLIKING them. Getting aloof from them. If YOUR DUTY NECESSITATES indulgence into it, then you MUST. It is not that Great Saints do not eat say Laddoos. They eat, they experience the sweetness of it but they are indifferent to it…they are not attached to it…they DO NOT GIVE ANY IMPORTANCE TO IT ! Hence once you understand that I DON'T LIVE FOR SAY SEXUAL DESIRES, or ONCE YOU HAVE ELIMINATED YOUR INSIDE DESIRE /ATTRACTION TOWARDS SAY SEXUALITY…YOU ARE OUT OF IT. Thereafter your indulgence into it to say for DHARMIC / DUTY reasons…is a sadhana in itself. Just As : What is wrong in being rich? Nothing, but it should be through justifiable means. Similarly: There is nothing wrong in indulging into sexual activity with your better half, to make her happy and pregnant….CONDITION : It should be for others, not for your own pleasure. For you it should merely be a DUTY…a DRY DUTY. Nothing more than that. BUT IF , you do not see any purpose behind the demand like Procreation etc …you are entitled to apply brakes. Not a DROP SHOULD BE WASTED FOR FUN. Hence, I requested you to find out the real reason behind the insistence.

These threats of divorce, these fears of her getting corrupt, these apprehensions of your daughters future….they are all merely worries which you are unnecessarily carrying. If she becomes corrupt, you are not answerable to any one, provided you never failed in your duty. Your daughters' marriage etc is in the hands of God , you can only do your duty, when occasion arises. Marriages are made in heaven. When appropriate time will come, appropriate match will present himself before you. Matches for your daughters are already born, and are in this world only. You are not aware. Hence do not worry a bit on that count. If inspite of your agreeing to genuine demands…she insists for divorce..Say AS YOU WISH MADAM ! It is easier said than done.

BUT remember: Sadhana is not running away from world…sadhana is remaining in the world and getting detached at self level (inside) from them. Physical indulgence is not that important. Gita clearly says that those who physically abstain, but by mind contemplate about worldly pleasures are DAMBHEES ( Hypocrates). Hence do not give more importance to physical connections/disconnections. Give more importance to disconnection from INSIDE. I don't agree with your view that DIVORCE will be more conducive to your sadhana. Not at all a correct belief. Correct this belief immediately.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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It is sad that some sadhak can write such words, "Not Even God can reform you"
and mentions his name as 'Krishna' . This remark I found in one of the messages
appearing below on this board. In fact, this Mr.Krishna's message smacks of
total EGO. I am sorry to point out this. Let me also clarify the message does
not have anything to do with me, but I felt sad that somebody is seeking
guidance and this person uses such a foul or arrogant language.

God Bless this Mr. Krishna.

Hari Om

Shivkumar

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Mon May 10, 2010 3:00 pm
If you have developed detachment from sensual pleasure, then you are great and can perfectly be part of actions that gives sensual pleasure to others, if it is your Dharma to satisfy your spouse. Actions without attachment  and without desire is Yoga.
Basudeb Sen
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Listen, 44 yrs sadhak, it   is  one  sided   story, I  would  like  to  hear   what  your  wife  says.  Only  then  the   truth  will  come  up   and  any  I  can  think  over  it -  how  to  help  you. Send  me  her   contact  number.  If   there  is   any  truth  in  your   complaint,  U  would  definitely  send  me  the   contact   number   of  your   wife  otherwise  your  complaint  will  prove  its  futility.
 
  May  your  soul rest  in   peace  !
deepti
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Listen,  Dhyan Sadhak , it   is  one  sided   story, I  would  like  to  hear   what  your  wife's side.    Vasundhara.
 
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Tue May 11, 2010 11:29 am
Dear Sadaks,

One sadak posted questions for clarity.

Q1. Who has been living spiritual life?  What is spiritual life?  What is spiritualitya?

       Sprit is called SAT in Sanskrit. One who is getting united with is living spiritual life. One living in SAT Dharm is called spiritual life. One who has attain SAT is spirituality.

 

Q2. Who feels blessed and reads daily Geetha? One whose a very little past Karmas and has blessing of the past.

Q3.What is the purpose? To realize Sat.

Q4. What is the understanding created in 20 years about what has been read? If read once with Shardha it is enough. Arjuna heard Geetha but could not remember. Hanuman heard Geetha at the same time from flag of Chariot. He remembered perfectly.

Q5.What sadhna has done/not done for you?  Sadana done with faith yields Gyan. Sadana done with distracted mind cannot yield any result.

Q6. Who is giving seva to whom? We are sevaks to Paramathuma. Disciple is sevak to Guru. Grahasta is Sevak to Parents etc

Q7. Was love and affection part of the seva? Bodily love is not Seva. Affection unconditional is Seva.  

Q8. Who is disinterested in the pleasures? One who knows Geetha Chapter 14 sloka 20. Q9.Why this world was created? Created due to threegunas like SMS in air of each Jeeva. Q10.Why so many people around us? Once there were more animals than people. Animals indulge perfectly in seasons. Men is worst than animals, because he cannot refrain from it on Ekadasi day and like those days. 

Q11.Who has understood the truth? Saints, Christ, Buddha, Sathya Sai, Tukaram, Etc Q12.who is trying to make her understand the truth? It is duty of Husband. Slowly without her knowledge saying going to Cinima, take her to Sat Sangh. A little doses of Sat Sangh will change.  

Q13. Who is going through the agony and why? One who commits Sin. Like the brother disciple of Christ betrayed Christ- became Mad- Hung himself. Like Akkroor close associate of Sri Krishna, robbed Semanthaka mani (Diamond)

Q14. Who is putting conditions to sadhna? Your Rajo Gunaa.

Q15.  Divorce can help sadhna? Surely for honest Sadak. Like Sri Ramanuja great Vaisnavite Saint left his wife.

Q16. Who is feeling the responsibility? You and Me.

Q17.who is the doer? Karmic account Chapter 14 of Geetha

Q18.Who is failing to concentrate on sadhna? The worldly attached one.

Q19. Who is living in fear of her getting corrupt? One who is associated with bad ones. Like Duryodhan with his uncle.

Q20.Who is prepared to compromise anything except.....?  This I do not understand- What compromise for what.

B.Sathyanarayan

=========================================

PRIOR POSTING

Mon May 10, 2010 1:16 pm

Dandavat pranams...dear Raj Kumar.....
    My name is maha laksmi Dasi....I am most unqualified to know what the future will hold for you or anyone of us, but I must ask this question:  "How much association with sadhaks has your wife been willing to submit herself to?"  I ask this question because although it takes away from the time needed to spend on the job, making money to maintain the household, if one does not give sadhu sanga to the wife and children, it is very dangerous.  This dilemma  that you are experiencing is the result of forgetting to always give guidance from saintly persons.  Is there anyone she will accept as siksha guru....not that i am saying she has to have diksha, if that is not your belief....but that is oftentimes helpful, as it gives her a hope beyond this bodily existence, and knowledge that sense enjoyment will be over one way or another, whether we want it over or not.  Constant hearing of the message of the Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam (the beautiful pastimes of the Supreme Personality of Godhead) is essential to remain stable in higher understanding.
.   After 30 years of marriage....to Ramachandra Dasa, I must say that the greatest blessing we have both had is that continually, here in Los Angeles, there are Sadhus visiting frm India presenting the ancient teachings from the holy sciptures of India.   You are in India....you must ask around and find a saintly person who can give his or her association to your family, so that the influence of Kali yuga will be offset.
Dandavat pranams,
maha laksmi Dasi
 
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Mon May 10, 2010 9:17 am
Hari Om

Sadhak Rajkumarji ! At the outset welcome.

Your dilemma is multifold and is regarding conflict of duty. Both of you are very young, and it is not very unusual in today's world to have such a conflict or desire or demand. However, you are always concerned ONLY about your own duty, conduct and deeds, when you deal as a "Householder(Gruhushtha) Sadhak" with world at large including your own mind/body/intellect and your relatives.
Before we go into the main Q and determine your DUTY, let us first determine as to what is the form of your sadhana ( Which sadhana according to you is getting disturbed, and the disturbance there in is causing conflicts in you regarding your duty). You MUST BE a doing sadhana for Karma Yoga with an inclination towards Bhakti Yoga too and towards doing austerities and conducting yourself in accordance with dictates of Scriptures, and your OWN CONSCIENCE. That is the form of your sadhana ! (Correct me immediately, wherever , my assumptions are not correct. Do not hesitate there).

NOW: The first advice to you is that find out if there is or there is not an intention of your better half to get a son behind her insistence of forcing you ! If that is so it is your Duty to fulfill her demands. Answer would be slightly different if that is not so. Also let me know what are the other pleasures/desires referred by you she is insisting for. It is always necessary for a householder to do his duty towards other family members if they are rightful expectations. You MUST therefore determine 1 What You CAN do and 2 What you SHOULD do ! If the person to whom you wed expects something from you, it is your duty to impart happiness to them, PROVIDED you CAN and you SHOULD. The Sadhana reference is more in the ambit of what you SHOULD.

Do come back should you feel so. Else with present data and certain assumptions , I will give my views.
There are issues relating to threat of divorce, disturbance in sadhana, a householder phase of life, uncompleted family responsibilities and obligations (marriage of daughters) and concerns regarding future impact on fidelity of spouse all with reference to YOUR DUTY AS A HOUSEHOLDER AND SADHAK. We shall deal one by one.

We also have to address certain of your beliefs (say what is more conducive for sadhana- divorce or continuity etc) and future fears/apprehensions ; and the way you are assuming the very 'Sadhana' means. Striving as householder is different than striving as non-householder- whichever yoga/sadhan you may opt for !!! Hence if you keep touching on the postings and replying you will get more clarity on the way forward.


Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B


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Mon May 10, 2010 11:25 am

It will be perhaps more fruitful if you ask this question to Swamiji, instead of opening this to a larger audience.  He would have guided you to happiness......
 
It is my intention to first make you aware of what you have written (highlighted in yellow ones) and would request to do Manan on your own words and to understand what is at play......
 
Questions that arise from your statements are good points for manan and understanding the truth:
1. Who has been living spiritual life?  What is spiritual life?  What is spiritualitya?
2. Who feels blessed and reads daily Gitaji, Ramcharitmanas and do dhyana sadhna and why?  What is the purpose? What is the understanding created in 20 years about what has been read? What sadhna has done/not done for you?
3. Who is giving seva to whom?  Was love and affection part of the seva?  
4. Who is disinterested in the pleasures?  Why this world was created? Why so many people around us? 
5. Who has understood the truth? and who is trying to make her understand the truth?  
6. Who is going through the agony and why?
7. Who is putting conditions to sadhna?  Divorce can help sadhna?
8. Who is feeling the responsibility? who is the doer?
9.Who is failing to concentrate on sadhna?
10. Who is living in fear of her getting corrupt?
11.Who is prepared to compromise anything except.....? 

A viable solution is understanding of truth........and the truth is that Ram, Krishna, Shiva all lived happily with their wives while being spiritual, while at the heights of spirituality...... the vasana is in the mind...... doer inside you is the problem...... shed the doership....question your understanding on spirituality.....start loving unconditionally.....and enjoying every moment.......
 
One of the rules of life says....when you complain, you must do manan on what you must be doing the same somewhere else...... Every complaint we make is a mirror to us.....it shows our shortcomings..... and if we get the hints and work on ourselves, all outside so called problems will vanish.....
 
With best wishes....
Sushil Jain

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Mon May 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Dear Sir,
Simple sir, just give her company as she wants as it is your disbursal of your Karmas. But  here Sri Pawan Kumar Singhal posting helps. Perform action without attachment having in mind, that this is bodily affects not THE Athuman. If you understand this, then your mind  is read by GOD, HE reads  NOT your actions, says Sastras. One day your unwanted desire GOD will dispose. Here you see Vasudev in her also, may be she is lusty, but that lust is illuminated by both of your Karmas. There is NO lust in you, that God knows. Even while bed side with her if you say in mind Rama Rama (Mantra Permitted anywhere in any circumstances) cleanses you- Means your Athuma though your body is dirtied. Here try to get the real story of Pingala prostitute lady who was taken up by Sri Rama.
Regarding your daughter- Leave the thoughts that they are your`s. Leave it to Sri Rama and rest in peace. Teach them Vasudevam Sutham Devam------. This cleanses crores of Sins says the sloka. Sakubai, Andal, Meera were all told of Sri Krishna leelas in their young age, resulting in divinity. That is your duty towards them and their marriage DO you think it is in your hands?
B.Sathyanarayan

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Mon May 10, 2010 7:26 am
Dear sir,
I am not a Sadhoo or Sadhaka even,BUT, I do not understand the attitude of"Giving Sensual pleasures as Sewa".... It is deceiving yourself which is a lot bigger Adharma!!!!
Deriving Sensual pleasure is a part of this joint activity-Sensual pleasure is NOT something to be given alone!
Blessed married life with 2 children and Good health of all of you is all that you need to continue with your Sadhana/Satsang...
Please do not confuse Sadhana /Satsang with forced,unpleasant abstinenance...It does not help...Divorce for Sex or lack of it are equally horrible,do not even think of it.
regards,
RKBaxi. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mon May 10, 2010 12:39 pm

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Dear Raj Kumar,

First I have pasted this info below without comment for your reflection.

'........However in theological terms, both the Manusamhita and the Arthashastra  state that, if a husband is impotent, a traitor, has become an ascetic or an outcast, or is missing for a prescribed number of years, then the wife can leave him without blame and marry again. The Arthashastra  also declares that in other circumstances, divorce can take place only by mutual consent...'

I threw this question at my wife, I actually printed it, my wife perused it, and  a short dialogue ensued.

The final outcome of our  deliberation, is that you must consider  the welfare  of you children and wife,  but recognize that basically you are an
ascetic.
I have been informed that in some Brahman marriages, sex is for procreation only, certainly allows one to be ascetic while still living the life of a husband.
I am not a Hindu, and clearly by my name, I am not an Indian, so I am treading lightly.

There are/were many high spiritual societies, where marriage is/was not seen as an impediment to Liberation.

My wife said to me that I am pretty much an ascetic, I don't give myself labels, she's basically correct. It is a natural process of spiritual inclined people, but wisdom and Divine Love must be factored in. (Apply your Sadhana).

Om... Shanti...

Mike. (K).

------------------------------------------------------------

Mon May 10, 2010 7:16 am

AN AGE OF 44 IS VERY PREMATURE AGE TO BECOME A RECLUSE.AS PER SCRIPTURES AT THE
AGE OF 50 ONE SHOULD START TO PRACTICE "SANYAS DHARMA"IN THIS CASE THERE IS
DESIRE OF ONE OF THEPARTNER .IF ABANDONED THERE SHALL BE PROBLEM AS PER THE
STATEMENTS. THE HUSBAND SHOULD  TRY TO MAINTAIN LIFE  PEACEFULLY BY COOPERATING
WITH HIS  WIFE SO THAT FAMILY  LIFE  WILL REMAIN PEACEFUL AND TAKE CARE OF
CHILDREN..
"n.panda"

---------------------------------------------------------

Mon May 10, 2010 7:30 am
My friend,

Don't you realize you have been misguided and misinterpreted your life and other's too. You say you are 44. You conveniently forget to mention the age of your wife. Are you not looking at the problem very selfishly and in a "HOLIER THAN THOU" stance. Your second daughter  is thirteen year old, as you say. Fine, that means, you did not have any inhibitions or your " Spiritual Life (as you say - God knows what you mean by that, to me it is utter nonsense in this context) did not come in the way while having sex with your wife till thirteen years back. You were eating Dal roti, etc 13 yrs back. You are still eating food, have you stopped taking bath or going to the toilette after "Spiritual Life". If these necessities of Body are taken care of without interruption of Spiritual life why do you expect the poor lady to give up her body necessity. Why do you apply one rule to her and another rule to you. Is that what "Spiritual life" taught you. If it is so then throw that trash into Yamuna which already stinks in Delhi.

Spirituality consists of doing your job as you should do it without expecting any benefit or material gain. The first thing you ought to learn in spirituality is to understand others. appreciate their needs and respect their thoughts. ONe question my friend. Have you ever computed the age of Draupadi when Keecaka ran after her to rape her. She must have been sixty +. I can cite many more instances where women past sixty or even more were fond of sexual pleasure. Sexual act once done with creates a psychological relax. If suppressed, it will eat the mind and body. Hope that will not happen to the lady.

Honestly if you are diabetic or you have lost the capacity to do it be bold and tell your wife. Surely, she will understand. Do not try to hide such natural disabilities under the carpet of Spiritual life. If you do not have any physical deficiency but putting up Spirituality as a pretext not to take part in sex with your life, I am forced to say I do not believe you. You are most likely chasing another cow and want to get rid of your present wife. Spirituality does not contradict with normal life.

Was vasishta not spiritual, How colud he get 100 sons? If you think you are superior to Vasishta and such others you are surely buying a one-way ticket to hell.

Not Even God can reform you..
Krishna
---------------------------------------------
Mon May 10, 2010 12:34 pm
Dear Raj Kumar
 
You should wait till both of your daughters are married Please do not indulge in sex life too much but behave in such a way that she is satisfied Do not openly say that I do not like sex life Find a balanced way so that the question of  separation does not arise
This what I think.
 
Truly yours
 
S S Bhatt
-------------------------------------------------
Mon May 10, 2010 7:20 am
Occasional sex may do good to ur sprituality spirit alsop. Some people
call it INTEGRAL Spritual Life .
 "mohan K Muju"

Shree Hari Ram Ram 

Please also read "Grahastha mein kaise rahe?" from Sadhan, Sudha Sindhu starting at page 882 - 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sadhansudhasindhu/samajsudhar/samaj8_882.jpg

Thank you for being an instrument in helping many sadhaks.  

Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram 

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[gita-talk] Since God is behind everything, why should we be responsible for birth, death?

 

OM Sri Hari,
WE are the doers as ordained by the LORD . Expectation of Rewards for the actions we perform is not to be wished for.  Why if GOD is directing us, how can he test us and for what ,we are driven by him. Our, so thought of actions, are not ours,GOD is making us do it ,then why should we be responsible for birth ,death and rebirth. This is a paradox! who can explain this?
Ram Ram
Guru Prasad
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Gita 4 - 9

Link: — In response to the question put, in the fourth verse, by Arjuna, the Lord started describing the divine character of His birth. Now in the next verse He, of His own accord, explains the merit of knowing the divine character of His birth, as well as actions, to explain the performance of actions without expectation of fruit (Karmayoga).

janma karma ca me divyamevam yo vetti tattvatah;
tyaktvaa deham punarjanma naiti maameti so'rjuna 

He who thus knows in reality the true nature of My divine birth and action, (Karma) ; in other words, he who firmly and decisively accepts it, he having renounced the body, is not reborn; rather he comes to Me, O Arjuna. 9

Comment: —

`Janma karma ca me divyam' — The Lord is beyond birth and death. He is free of birth and imperishable. His manifestation in human form is not like the birth of ordinary men. He manifests Himself of His own will* in order to stage the drama of human life for the welfare of beings.

Unlike other beings, the Lord's form (body) is not made of flesh and blood. The bodies of beings are full of virtues and vices. They are transitory, prone to disease, worldly, changing, matter and are born of ovum and semen, while the Lord's Form, is free from virtues and vices. It is eternal, healthy, spiritual, free from modifications, divine and is revealed. The bodies of gods, are also divine, but the Form of the Lord, is far superior to those of the gods and even the gods are ever eager to see this Form (Gita 11/52).

When the Lord descended on the mortal world, as Lord Rama and Lord Krishna, mother Kausalya and Devaki, did not give birth to Him. First, He revealed to them His four-armed divine Form, with conch, disc, mace and lotus, and then staged the drama of a child, then the mother, requested Him to conceal that divine Form. The description has been, very clearly, given, in the Ramacaritamanasa 1/192, as well as Srimadbhagavata 10/3/30 and 10/3/46.

When Lord Rama returned to His Abode, He, unlike common men, disappeared from this mortal world along with His body (Form), His body was not left on the earth. It is said in the Ramayana by Valmiki, that having heard the words of Brahma, the creator the very wise Lord Rama, having decided, entered the splendor of Lord Visnu, with His three brothers, in His Form. The same fact is mentioned about Lord Krishna in Srimadbhagavata that He also went to His Abode, in His Form (11/31/6).

The same sort of description is available in Ramacaritamanasa, when sage Valmiki; says to Lord Rama, that His Form is divine and unaltered, only a deserving one knows the reality about Him, when He manifests Himself as a human being, for protecting saints and gods, and teaches and acts as a worldly king.

Once sage Sanakadi was visiting the Abode of Lord Visnu.  The gatekeepers of the Lord stopped him from entering in, at which time he cursed the gatekeepers. Knowing that Lord's gatekeepers had insulted the sage, Lord Visnu Himself came to the entrance. Beholding the Lord, and receiving the divine fragrance of basil leaves and shoots, while prostrating at the Lord's Feet, he experienced immense exhilaration and was ecstatic, though such wise sages ever remain established in the imperishable Lord (Srimadbha. 3/15/43).  Just as the fragrance of the Lord's lotus feet is divine, His clothes, ornaments and weapons etc., are also divine, sentient and extra-ordinary beyond words.
Having heard, studied and recollected the pastime of the Lord, people's hearts become free of flaws, they are purified and their ignorance is wiped out—this is the divine nature of His actions. Lord Sankara, Brahma, the creator, sages, such as Sanaka etc., divine sage, Narada etc., who are the embodiments of knowledge, having sung and heard of His divine pastime get absorbed in them. A person who visits the places, where the Lord staged the drama of His human life with reverence and faith and resides there, attains salvation. It means that the Lord manifests Himself and carries on His pastimes in order to enable the people to attain salvation. Therefore, people attain perfection in their aim by reading, hearing and thinking of His divine pastimes.

In the fourth verse, Arjuna put the question to the Lord pertaining to His birth, but here, the Lord starts describing his action of his own accord. By doing so, it seems as if the Lord wants to emphasize the fact, that a man's actions can also be divine, though his birth cannot be divine as human life has been bestowed upon him only to perform, such actions. Actions are divine, when these are free from desire for reward, attachment and a sense of `mine.' Divine actions, lead to liberation from the bondage, of the present as well as past actions, and these naturally do good to others.

In fact, actions become impure, when a man accepts his affinity for perishable objects; and these lead him to bondage. This affinity, makes not only actions but also objects and mind, impure. As soon as, this affinity is renounced, all the three become pure. It is affinity for the perishable, which is the main obstacle to salvation.

`Evam yo vetti tattvatah' — God in spite of, being without, birth imperishable and the Lord of all beings, manifests Himself, of His own accord, and by keeping His nature (prakriti) under control, for the welfare of all beings. He who knows this fact, realizes the divine nature, of the births of the Lord.
Though all actions are performed by Him, yet He is a non-doer i.e., He has no pride of doership (Gita 4/13), nor does He desire, the fruit of actions (Gita 4/14). He who knows fact, knows the divine nature of the Lord's actions.
As the Lord manifests Himself, for the welfare of the entire creation and as He remains detached from actions, similarly, those people, who live for the welfare of the world, and remain detached from actions, know the divine nature of His births (manifestations) and actions.

`Tyaktvaa deham punarjanma naiti'
— There is nothing in the three worlds, that is to be done by the Lord, nor is there anything unattained, that should be attained by Him (Gita 3/22), yet He manifests Himself in this mortal world, by His grace to inspire beings to attain salvation. He carries on His wonderful pastime, also for the same purpose. When a person recites, hears, reads or thinks of his pastimes, he is linked with the Lord. When he is connected with the Lord his tie with the world is cut off. When this bond with the world is snapped, he is not reborn i.e., he is liberated from the bondage of birth and death.

In fact, it is not action but desire, which binds a man and this desire is man-made. In order to satisfy his desire, he performs actions with a selfish motive, being attached to these, they bind him. As desire is enhanced, he is inclined towards sinful actions, which lead him to his birth, in evil bodies and to hell. But, when he performs actions without a selfish motive for the welfare of others, his actions become divine and uncommon, they do not lead him to bondage and he is not reborn.

`Maameti so'rjuna'  —  When a man assumes his affinity for perishable actions, the ever-attainable Lord, seems unattained, to him. But, when actions are performed without expecting any reward for the welfare of others, their direction is towards the world and the ever-attained Lord, is realized.

It is because of the Lord's divine nature that He descends to this mortal world, in order to shower His grace upon beings. Those who know this fact become His devotees and then remain absorbed only in His adoration or devotion (Manasa 5/34/2). This devotion, leads to salvation. Similarly, when a man knows the divine nature of His actions then his actions also become divine viz., pure and then these lead him, as well as others, to God-realization (salvation) as he renounces his affinity for the world. It is the affinity, which is an obstacle to salvation or God-realization.

From "The Bhagavadgita - Sadhak Sanjivani" in hindi page 271-274 by Swami Ramsukhdasji. 

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