Friday, April 30, 2010

[gita-talk] Why Do We Fear Death?

 

We have just discussed a topic "Immortality is self evident" in detail and to the satisfaction of most of us. To a large extent we got convinced that we exist eternally agreeing with what Lord Krishna says about this Immortality in Shri Bhagved Gita Ji Chapter II!!  Still, we do fear death....Why of it??  Please discuss!
Kuldeep Vijay
---------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari Ram Ram 
Please see SADHAKA messages on this topic.  Whoever reads these, please summarize some key points 
for the benefit of all sadhaks: 
When We do not Die, then Why the Fear of Death ?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1778
On Death 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1879
It is Useless to be Afraid of Death
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2536
We have Accepted Our Association with Death
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2444
Death ! A Certainty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1497
Please also see prior Gita Talk discussions on similar topics:
Gita's View on Death 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/1730
How to Overcome Fear of Suffering and Needing Comfort? 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2366
Help me say Good bye 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2341
Life After Death
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/1314 
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[gita-talk] Re: How to Establish Myself in the Self?

 

Shri Hari
Ram Ram

I love Gita & Her teaching. All is happening in nature.Be establish in the
Self.If I am establish in the Self already,then what is the meaning of
instruction to establish yourself in the Self in Gita.

Always answered, your acceptance of body as Self is main hazard.

Please discuss to analyse critical control point with sadhakas.I am
finding difficulty to realise separation of body & Self. My point is as follows.

How I establish myself in the Self.

Thanks & Regards
Pawan Kumar Singhal


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTIN
G
Dear Ones, Namaste!
Welcome Manjulaji, so nice to hear from you and hope to hear often enough!
Pawanji, let us address your question one more time: How I establish myself in the Self?
This story has a potential to help us see the point about the "I" who wants to establish "myself"
in the Self.
In a small village, there lived a family, husband, his devoted wife, 2 boys, 2 girls. Husband worked very hard all day long in
the field to earn livelihood to support his family. They both wanted children get education in the village school and then go on 
to college, and daughters get married and be happy. For this dream of his, he was saving money little at a time and kept them 
buried in his back yard, hiding it even from his wife, with good intention only. He was afraid if they knew, they would find some 
excuses to spend money now. Occasionally his brother visited him from a distant village, and they both talked about plans to 
educate their children and marry them and so on. He confided in his brother, told him his secret of saving money in a hiding 
place until the time came to use them, and advised him to do so. 
As it happened that one day while working in the field on a hot summer day he fainted and died of heart failure! This was a
tragedy, for his wife now had to support the family by working some menial jobs, his daughters have to drop out of school, 
and boys had to also eventually leave school to support family. 
They became extremely poor within few months of his passing away and barely surviving. Suffering was all over them.
Then again it so happened that the brother of her late husband visited the family to see how they were doing. He knew that his
late brother had the money that the family was using and living just the same, assuming his wife knew it. He was surprised to 
see them poverty stricken. His wife was embarrassed to tell him about her husband who never left any money. Then the brother
 told him about the secret place where money was! Just as she heard that her husband had done so, she felt sorry to blame him 
as she knew he would have told him at the right time had he not passed away suddenly. 
All of a sudden at the blink of an eye, suffering melted away and tears of joy ran through her eyes and she didn't even go out
and look for place where money was buried, as she knew they were there! As soon as she knew of it, the suffering was gone 
and she was relaxed!

Now the message of the story: (Within its limitations to convey the intended message)
-Suffering was caused by ignorance of not knowing that the hidden treasure was always with her but remained buried!
Ignorance is not known as ignorance until Realization happens, very important  
  point to remember. This is the reason why it lasts because it does feel real in its spell!
-When the hidden treasure was discovered, it was only a realization that "oh, I always had it even as I was suffering, I just
didn't know I had it" To gain it, no doing of any kind needed!
-The hidden treasure was pointed out by someone who knew you, your well wisher.
The Self-Atman-Consciousness-God is such a treasure that not knowing of it, "I" or "myself" suffer! "I" or "myself" have to be
pointed out by Saints and Sages that "hey, you little self, you are THAT SELF!
PawanJi, This little self is "I" or "myself" in your question, wanting to establish in Self!
Self is only One and Universal, not "myself" or "yourself"! "my" in front of self is only a bunch of ideas, belief systems, opinions
of others about "me" and my own image about "me".  It will merge within Self upon Realization of assumed lost treasure which 
was never Lost!
Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------------------------
Jai Hanuman

To realise Self / Get established in Self - You have to leave 'labor'. You have to adopt 'rest',
quiteness, silence. You have TO ACCEPT peace. "To Accept Peace" means to experience your automatic,
 obvious, self proven, self evident, natural, effortless (SAHAJ) positioning into SELF. 
"To experience" - means you have to firmly believe it to be so !!!

If you are QUITE, you are positioned in SELF. Peace is the cause in getting Self Realisation.
(BG 6:3). Peace comes to you instantly by 'disconnection with world' ! Peace is existing - 
automatically. You ONLY have to disconnect with the element which generates lack of peace/unrest 
viz me/mineness with body !!

Some sadhaks stated 'thought' to be representing Self. Totally Wrong ! Self has no capacity 'to
act'. 'Thinking' is an act of mind, not of Self. Self can only accept or reject, associate or 
disassociate. Since in Self there is no 'activity' , only Self gets God Realisation.

If you are thinking, you are positioned in the world because the world is existing ONLY in your
thoughts. It is appearing as existing, only because you pay respect to it. (Where is world in 
Deep Sleep?). You LIKE to see it existing, because you feel that "connection" with world generates
 peace and happiness. Actually, world is constantly changing. It is ASAT (unreal). There is no 
PRESENT in world. The FUTURE is getting converted into PAST every kshipram (fraction of a second) !
So Pawanji ! You have to drive yourself to a thoughtless or peaceful state - while being fully 
awake !! IT IS POSSIBLE, IT IS EASY. But you have to be willing.

You can live without thoughts as you live in Deep Sleep. Thoughts are ALWAYS in respect of that
thing which is NOT EXISTING. PRESENT can never be subject matter of thoughts- it is subject matter
of either ACTION or INACTION. Only Past or Future can be subject matter of thoughts. Both do not 
exist. Hence Gita says: NA KINCHIDAPI CHINTAYET - Do not think about anything- BG 6:25 !!

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala

--------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

{ Part 2 - Re: How to Establish Myself in the Self?- A SPECIAL MESSAGE to Sadhaks }
Deep sleep is nothing except total disconnection with the world. However, deep sleep is only 
an indicator, a proof, a sample...but not the end, because in deep sleep there is ignorance of
 the world. The disconnection there is not "WILFUL" , it is forced. There you are in sleep mode, 
you are not conscious. If we are able to disconnect fully and wilfully with the world while being 
awake...we have achieved Liberation.

The FORM (Svaroop) of disconnection with the world can not be physical or outside. You have to
disconnect mentally (disconnect from your very mind) and by bhavas (at acceptance levels/ at SELF
 level by inner sentiments) . The disconnection can not be through 'running away from the world' 
or 'becoming sadhu' ...because the body itself is complete world- where can you go? Everywhere 
there is regime of world. The form of disconnection can not be 'death' because we die with a 
desire to live. It is forced, not wilful. Entanglement with the world continues. It can't be 
'suicide' because there we leave beaten and still entangled with the world having ended the 
life because of stupidity, anger, frustration etc. It can't be 'meditation' because there you 
make 'mind' as medium and take shelter of inert. It is always a temporary phenomena. You must 
get up from 'samadhi'. (meditation). To establish in the SELF you have to renounce TOTALLY the 
shelter of inert/world/nature ! 

THEREFORE, the form of disconnection has to be:

1 Inside- At Bhava/Acceptance/Self level

2 You have to disconnect with Jagat as a whole including your body, mind, intellect and ego

3 Wilful

4 While remaining in the world

5 While being fully awake and conscious

AND that state Divine Sadhaks is reached when you address your EGO...me/mine...likings/dislikings !
 Because you connect with world ONLY through Ego. You disconnect at Ego level , and you get 
disconnected with world. Hence either you alter/change your ego (Bhakti Yoga); or you purify your 
ego (Karma Yoga) ; or you eliminate your ego (Jnana Yoga) !! BE A YOGI !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Sri Shashikalaji says- "We therefore do not have to make ANY EFFORTS for  establishing ourselves into SELF". 
If no effort is needed, then where comes the question of Sadana our saints and our Swamiji spoke off? Perfection 
in Sadana is not that easy. Sadaks know this from histories of many saints.
Sri Shashikalaji Again said, "always/ever connected with God (Jagdeesh). We CANNOT get disconnected".  
When Jagath is in mind, Jagadish is disconnected. When Jagath is disconnected, Jagadish is automatically 
connected. Two- Jagath and Jagadish are never connected together. Hundreds of saints have said this.   Sri Shashikalaji Again, " here is TOTAL DISCONNECTION with the world in deep sleep...is not it?". 
There are 3 stages this Jeeva experiences due to Trigunas and Vasanas said in Geetha in Chapter 14. Jagratha 
(Wakening), Susupthi Deep Sleep and so. This is experienced by Jeeva and has NO connection with 
Paramathuma. 
 
Sri Shashikalaji Again,- " Why? Because we are NOT HAPPY after establishing connection with the world" 
Since there is happiness and sorrow taking place in intervals, we eager for happiness and connected with world. 
Hundreds of people are happy in different ways, but they are unaware that this happiness is seed for sorrow, in 
Maya, says Geetha.
We are in false happiness that which we are unable to realize, and get to Gyana.
 
Sri Shashikalaji Again , "We are still fearful, tense, unsatisfied, anxious...we still have desire to live and fear of 
death. We still have to KNOW something, to DO something, and to GET something ! 
We are deficient...deficient...deficient." This is what Bagavan Geetha says, Kamayesu (Desire), Krodhyeshu Etc.
Buddha said, Desire is the soul root of all evils. Chirst said, " Empty thyself I shall fill it". 
Means empty your desires and God fills in.  

 

Sri Manjula Patel ji, says, "Will try a simple example to separate body and self. 

If i say my car, my house, or my TV, it doesn't make me car, house or TV, does it?"

We all know this. Why even the most illiterate knows this. A suicidal person knows that he

wants to leave his body, since he is aware internally that he is separate from body.

But in practical life one attains this knowledge only by Sadana or by Guru or by Govind.

We all know BharathaYogiswar in Srimath Bagavath. HE knew that his body and Self are different.

But by desire to rare Deer, he had to take rebirth as Jada Bharath. We can talk about this, but

practically not. Somewhere or other we slip. Only Buddha, Adi Sankar, Bala Yogi, Veera Bhramam,

Tukaram etc who were realized souls gave themselves even to be slained. But definitely Not me,

as I am yet to reach that stage.  

B.Sathyanarayan

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Pawan Ji,
                          Namskar!
I loved your question and also enjoyed the eloborated answers from various Sadak Bandoos!
 
Surely your question is in reference to a verse of Bhagved Gita which, should have been cited to understand the question better!
 
Still, to answer the question in simple terms it is essential to know what you call Myself and what self!!!!
 
See, it is always said:
 Your senses, your mind, your intellect, your ego, your body, your soul and your consciousness......but what are YOU??
 
YOU ARE AS UNKNOWN AS HE (What we called God, creator, absolute reality.....and what not). In simple terms, I would say YOU ARE WHAT YOU CALL or FEEL  as YOU!!! I would call that YOU as SELF.
 
While, with the help of Individualistic MIND and individualistic ego and consciousness,  SELF as described as above  is changed into an Individual which, is MYSELF.
 
So, in order to establish MYSELF in SELF one need to go beyond individualistic ego and illusion of duality!! The only method to do that is to analyse and use method of elimination part by part and indentity by identity from MYSELF such that only SELF remains!
 
Thus YOURSELF would get establishes in YOU!!
 
Jai Shri Krishna!
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jai Shri Hari,

Dear B SathyanarayanJi,
It seems NIteesh's response hurted/disturbed you at some level[s] of your nature/beliefs to some extent. If you feel so, please forgive him. His intention is never to disturb anyone at any conscious level from any angle as he is a strong believer of each and every words of GitaJi which includes (NA BUDDHIBHEDAM JANYAET-3/26; NIRVAIRAH SARVABHOOTESHHU-11/55 ; ADVESTA SARVABHOOTAANAM MAITRAH-12/13 ; SARVABHOOTHITE RATAH -5/25,12/4 ; ISHWARAH SARVABHOOTAANAAM-18/61). If some one gets disturbed, it is his own supreme self who gets hurted.

Regarding the tapas what people saw in other great personalities, no one (even that person until the realization) knows the full contexts correctly. In my understanding, their efforts/tapas was not just for Self/God realization but included many personal/social/divine side plans (including some of their own ways of realization, some of their wrong assumed goals like DhruvaJi had (DHRUVA SAGALAANI -Maanas)  and many others like LILAS/divine plays etc....). If you ask any great realized person, he will not instruct anyone to follow each and every steps what he followed/encountered during his saadhanaa/discipline. He, being kind, will always suggest the aspirants the easiest paths suitable to their contexts/natures towards attaining the goal. For example, Goswami TulasiaasiJi who also did a alot but he provides the simplest solutions (like. NAHIN KALI KARAM NA BHAGATI VIVEKU | RAM NAM AVALAMBAN EKU||  SUMIRAT JAASU NAAM EK BAARAA | UTARAHI NAR BHAVA SINDHU APAARAA) to people who do not believe in exercising their brain cells for realization instead they just believe none other than the Supreme. Similarly, Swami RamsukhdasJi who also did a lot during his saadhanaa but he never suggests/insists people to do what all he did. Instead, being kind to us, he provides the simplest solutions corroborated by the scriptures. But again, there is no insistence here, it all depends upon the aspirants and their natures ( SVABHAAVASTU PRAVARTATE: GitaJi-5/14).


--------------------------------------
Dear PratapJi,
 
Thanks for your kind responses. I really appreciate you and all from whom I have learnt a lot especially the great questioners of this forum.
I think I have some points to share regarding your statement "Jeeva is not an entity".

In my understanding, the general definition of Jeeva (i.e. embodied soul) is "Self/Atmaa + a cloudy layer of self accepted jeevapanaa(i.e. artificial sense of beingness)". It is the Jeeva who is under bondage/maayaa due to its "Jevapanaa" built upon acceptance due to ignorance from eternity and trying to come out of that trap. It is the Jeeva who is aspirant/seeker and trying to be established in its true nature/Self/Atma which is (SAT/Truth-CHIT/Consciousness-ANAND/Bliss). So, Jeeva is definitely an entity until realization. In the last stage of the discipline, one could say that the Jeeva who was seeking no more exists. Actually, the seeking/jeevapanaa is lost and not the Jeeva. Here, one should note that the seeking is the result of partial understanding of the stupidity of Jeevapanaa.

Instead of saying "Jeeva is not an enitity", I would say "Jeevapanaa is not an enity" otherwise it would harm us in understanding various scriptures/philosophies (including Vedanta) revealed by our Saints/Achaaryas/God.
For example:
Goswami TulasidasJi says that there are 3 kinds of Jeevas (wordly, aspirant/seeker, realized/free) in this world which are highly talked/elaborated by Vedas.
VISHHAYI SAADHAK SIDDHAA BAKHAANE | TRIVIDHA JEEVA JAG VEDA BAKHAANE ||  (AyondhyaKand 277/2). Here, TulasidasJi, referring to Vedas, also calls the realized ones as "Jeeva" (i.e. Siddha/Realized Jeeva).

In APAROKSHHANUBUTI, Shri ShankaraaChaaryaJi says that the "Jeeva" (i.e. the  realized one)  is just a name given to Brahm the way an ornament made of gold is a name of gold. If we say that "Jeeva" was before and now it is no more. This will imply that the "Jeeva" which was "Self + a cloudy layer" before realization lost everything including "Self". So, Jeeva is always an entity only things the "Jeevapanaa" which is never an entity disappears upon realization.

Goswami TulasidasJi calls the "Jeevapanaa" as "Jeevadharma" which holds the so called "joy, grief, knowledge, ignorance, egoism, pride".
 HARASHHA VISSHAD GYAAN AGYANAA | JEEVA DHARA AHAMITI ABHIMANAA . (BaalKand-116/4)
In the same APAROKSHHANUBUTI, Shri ShankaraaChaaryaJi calls the "Jeevapanna" as "JeevaBhaava" and emphasizes upon getting rid of this (i.e. JeevaBhaav).


Thanks & Regards
Niteesh Dubey

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hari Om

[How to
Establish Myself in the Self?- Part 1- SPECIAL Message to All Sadhaks]

'Study of Scriptures' comes quite early in the journey of any 'sadhak', particularly when you are more 'jigyaasu' (curious) than 'aart'
(sorrowful). What to say when you happen to be both !! Double Grace of God !!!

During my early days of Svaadhyaay ( Study) of Scriptures, I used to read, read and read. Nothing amazed and TAUGHT me
more than the phenomena of 'deep sleep' and its comparison with 'Self Realisation'/ establishing in the Self !! I have no hesitation in
stating that 'deep sleep' is a very very close 'sample' of Liberated state. Reason: It is a state where you are totally disconnected with
'inert' (Nature/Jagat/World/ Changeable).

Deep Sleep (Shushupti) every day provides us a proof that 'absolute happiness' is achievable.
'Relative happiness' can never satisfy us. There is ALWAYS absolute pleasure in deep sleep. There is no pain at all in deep sleep. Deep
(sound) sleep is what? It is nothing except "Total Disconnection" with the world. In deep sleep state we certainly live. Not only we live, we
get pleasure also. A type of pleasure, with out regular dose of which nothing else is enjoyable. A type of pleasure without which we can not
live long....and that pleasure is generated by "disconnection with world (inert)" ( O Divine Sadhaks..Real pleasure is in 'disconnection' not in
'connection' with the world) !!! Deep Sleep provides freshness to all- body, mind,intellect, sense organs, ..! When we get 'connected' with
world , body and the worldly things , then we lose strength, we get tired, our powers deteriorate. We get fatigue. In deep sleep we get
revitalised and refreshed.

What does deep sleep prove? What else EXCEPT without 'regular and total' disconnection with the world we can
not live at all , leave aside living happily. Actually, ABSOLUTE HAPPINESS (Ananda) arises with NIL presence of world i.e. total absence
of connection with world !!!

Imagine ! Imagine !! Divine Sadhaks !!! WHEN in deep sleep we get so much of pleasure , THEN if we are awake
and get 'disconnected' mentally, how much pleasure, Ananda, masti will be there !!! IF in the waking state ALSO we are able to get
'disconnected' with the world, body and worldly things; IF in the waking state also we do not assume or ACCEPT any relationship
with the world; IF in the waking state also we do not depend upon the world....THEN we get LIBERATED / ESTABLISHED IN THE
SELF !!!

Oh ! In deep sleep state, we are unconscious ..there is ignorance...there is lack of knowledge..we are not awake..
and that is why we don't get liberated !!

(This answers/confirms also reflections of Neetishji Dubey).

No ! No
!! In awakened state we are not ignorant; in deep sleep our mind/intellect/ego merges in ignorance. Baba !!
 In deep sleep body, ego,
mind etc do not merge in 'consciousness' (we remain) ...they get merged in ignorance. In awakened state, there is lesser ignorance
 than in deep sleep state. "Self" remains at both places AS IT IS !!!

Ha !!!!


To be continued

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Loving Divine,
Pranam.
Yes, borne or unborne, like it or not, we all are already established in the self but not aware of it that's
why instructions about be established in self...!
Will try a simple example to separate body and self.  If i say my car, my house, or my TV, it doesn't
make me car, house or TV, does it?  Similarly, my hand, my leg, or my body doesn't make me hand,
leg or body.  They belong to me but are not me.  So try to find out who is this me to whom all of these
belongs?  That is the difference between body and self.
Please read and understand BG chapter 3, slokas 27 - 29.  Also read BG 5:9 and entire chapter 7. 
Hopefully, it will clarify lot of things for you.
Humble regards,
always at Thy Lotus Feet
Manjula Patel

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jai Hanuman

What a
divine topic has come on this Divine GT Forum !! We are not part of the
world. We are children of the King of all Kings; Emperor of all
Emperors...God ! We are part of Paramatma. Being the daughter/son of the
God, we are "EVER CONNECTED" with God (Nitya-Yoga) !! ( Are you reading
carefully, Pawanji?) ! We therefore do not have to make ANY EFFORTS for
establishing ourselves into SELF, Jee !!

But there is a problem.
Problem is that we are not able to EXPERIENCE that 'ever connection'
(nitya-yoga) with God because we have super imposed upon it a UNILATERAL
self imposed 'connection with world' !!

JUST AS: We (Jeeva) are
always/ever connected with God (Jagdeesh). We CANNOT get disconnected
with God EVEN IF we want to !

SIMILARLY: We (Jeeva) are
always/ever dis-connected with world (Jagat). We CAN NOT remain
'connected' with world EVEN IF we want to !!

Our efforts of
establishing 'connection with world' viz with something with which we
are ever-disconnected is called stupidity/maya/ignorance/avidya !! Our
connection with the world is through 'me'/'mine' (EGO) in other words
through 'likings/dislikings (Raag/Dvesha)' !!! But our such self
imposed/unilateral connection with world is NEVER real because the other
party (world) starts disconnecting with us from the VERY MOMENT of
connection.

Hence , Dear Sadhaks, THINK !! Learn from what is
DEEP SLEEP !! There is TOTAL DISCONNECTION with the world in deep
sleep...is not it? Why? Because we are NOT HAPPY after establishing
connection with the world, Jee !! Bolo Jee! Are we happy? No ! No !! No
!!! The "world connection generated happiness" is always RELATIVE !
Proof ? We are still fearful, tense, unsatisfied, anxious...we still
have desire to live and fear of death. We still have to KNOW something,
to DO something, and to GET something ! We are
deficient...deficient...deficient.

COME ON ! O Children of the
King of all Kings !!

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
ONE SADAK has posted a reply to my posting, "B
SathyanarayanJi, There is no better silent place than the lap of
the Self or Supreme Self." 
Perfectly true and conformational  acceptance. But to get the lap of the SELF, I do not
think it is just that easy, like buying an apple. Durva Charitra, and
Prahalad Charitra in mother Womb, Buddha Charitra seeking THE SELF,
Tukaram Charitra sitting in solitude forest and so many other examples I
can quote. But these give an idea of how these great men ventured in
forest, abandoning wealth, fame and Name to get that lap of the SELF.
Dear Sadak, please go through the Durva Tapas how by week after week he
developed Vairagya forsaking even water. May be I am impertinent to
answer this, as the sadak who replied must be sitting in God` s lap. Hat
off to this Sadak.

B.Sathyanarayan   

-----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Pawan Ji,
                          Namskar!
I loved your question and also enjoyed the eloborated answers from various Sadak Bandoos!
 
Surely your question is in reference to a verse of Bhagved Gita which, should have been cited to understand the question better!
 
Still, to answer the question in simple terms it is essential to know what you call Myself and what self!!!!
 
See, it is always said:
 Your senses, your mind, your intellect, your ego, your body, your soul and your consciousness......but what are YOU??
 
YOU ARE AS UNKNOWN AS HE (What we called God, creator, absolute reality.....and what not). In simple terms, I would say YOU ARE WHAT YOU CALL or FEEL  as YOU!!! I would call that YOU as SELF.
 
While, with the help of Individualistic MIND and individualistic ego and consciousness,  SELF as described as above  is changed into an Individual which, is MYSELF.
 
So, in order to establish MYSELF in SELF one need to go beyond individualistic ego and illusion of duality!! The only method to do that is to analyse and use method of elimination part by part and indentity by identity from MYSELF such that only SELF remains!
 
Thus YOURSELF would get establishes in YOU!!
 
Jai Shri Krishna!
 
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)

-------------------------------------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

Leave
shelter of inert. Stop thinking/doing/hearing/acting /reading
..everything ! You can't think/act etc without getting associated with
inert nature. Hence if you think mind will be with you. If you
ponder/determine , intellect will be with you, if you try to see the eye
will be with you, if you hear ears will be with you, if you speak the
voice will be with you. If you believe that there IS, then the belief
and believer will remain behind. If you say - IS NOT- then the negater
will remain behind. If you renounce 'doership' then "I am not doer" this
subtle ego will remain as also renunciation and renouncer will remain.
THEREFORE, neither assume, nor reject, nor adopt, nor renounce, nor
like, nor dislike ...but self evident element is there ...accept this
naturally and become silent from both inside and outside. 'That I have
to remain silent' - even this sankalpa/decision should not remain ,
otherwise 'doership' will come, because SILENCE is self proven,
automatic and natural.

That is You, established in Self.

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting question......
It will interesting to find out Who is asking this question?  Who wants to establish in Self? 
Understanding the wisdom is the key...... understand, experiment and experience.....
 
It may be just dusting the self with the power of wisdom by understanding...
Sushil Jain
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

You are right Neetishji Dubey both in your questions and in your reflections. It is so divine seeing you to be scholarly, precise and perfect.

Self is not some idea or a thought or a whim or a fancy or a hallucination or some sort of a dream. It is beyond comprehension, beyond thoughts, beyond the very mind , intellect and ego. It is you, yourself, Man !!
It is not a subject matter of any knowledge, it is beyond knowledge. It is subject matter of experience !!! Who can know it? It must make you speechless and expressionless when you experience the delight of your establishing in Self. Read Gita! Read Gita !! There the undescribable has been described. You renounce there everything. You have to remove 'the complete' out of 'complete' and thereupon you experience the complete Self.

There is no way you can experience SELF even with the help of the very mind what to talk of ideas or thoughts which are creations of mind !! Poor mind can not know its own creator viz the nature, what to talk of knowing what is beyond even the nature!! Where is difference between Self and God? Oh No ! One must throw away mind/intellect/ego/ body identification before establishing in Self.

In Deep Sleep, Neetishji, only Self remains ! There is no Jagat (inert/nature) present thereat. Neither mind, nor intellect nor any I nor any You nor any He nor any this nor that ! There is no 'body identification' there ! What a power that activityless state imparts to you !! As you rightly said: Where are thoughts, ideas, whims or fancies there in deep sleep? Only YOU are there. 'You', the Self expresses through body in the morning ' I had a sound sleep' !! In deep sleep, Complete (Inert) is out of Complete and still Complete (Self) remains behind in its pure natural state... ASANG ... detached... Peaceful.. Blissful...Immortal.. Sentient...part of Parmatma ..Self !

Nothing explains the phenomena of Self better than deep sleep state. The only difference between Liberated state and Deep sleep state is that in the latter state your ego merges unwillingly into ignorance ; while in liberated state you have willingly eliminated/changed/purified your ego ! You are not in sleep mode in liberation, you are in silent (desireless) mode.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
Dear NiteeshJi, I have always appreciated your posts but this is my opportunity to express it by saying that your questions suggest the depth of knowledge you have! They are going to help me to test my own understanding!
1)Swamiji often says "Paramatma is already attained"; Vedanta says "Tat tvam asi",  You are That (Brahman)". So, we are already liberated, regardless of body or not or even when body is child, adult, old, etc etc. We just don't realize it! The reason is Consciousness, on contact with Nature(body-mind) causes delusion of being an individual who calls him/her "myself". Thus, it is only a conditioning getting stronger through the life by addition or subtraction of ideas about me/mine! This is the reason I say "myself" = ideas, beliefs,  etc etc". Even though it is not true, it is believed to be true over many life cycles until Realization happens to so-called jeeva in some birth. It is ignorance or Maya principle! I emphasize the fact that it is only "ideas, beliefs, thoughts that masquerades as "me", there is no entity that is jeeva!
This should answer your question regarding is the myself generated from childhood and is child liberated.
As seen ignorance as "myself" is recycles through many lives until Realization, and Child as a body has no problem of liberation or bondage, child as Consciousness is ever liberated that child knows not, just as an adult may not know it either!
2) In deep sleep, person, along with his world gets absorbed in Consciousness, and hence there is Bliss as Consciousness is with Itself, non-dual, eliminating any possibility of identification/limitations. However, ignorance of being a person continues upon waking up to "yet another world of dream or sleep" that we call real world. We need to wake up to our true nature from all such dream worlds, to Realize we were never in bondage, always liberated! Gita verse 2:69 points to this!
3) Here I mean to say that Self- Atman/Consciousness is our true nature and in all appearances/forms, It is the Reality as Existence Undivided, Undifferentiated! I compared "myself" as forms a Cloud appears to take, but the Reality of all such forms is Cloud itself and not these forms, elephant, etc etc. In other words, even that which is form or appearance, non-existent as such,  consist of the same stuff as Reality! To take forms as independently real is problem, but to see all forms with a full realization that they are also Real as Consciousness! (because all forms are experienced as "thoughts, perceptions" of forms only and therefore, are One Consciousness!).
This is truly Vasudeva Sarvam! Put it another way is that There is only REALITY, GOD, Consciousness in our experiences but it goes unrealized as such, because we get stuck at forms only!
Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is only God realised persons who are able to establish themselves in 
the Self. What is the Self ? It is our soul or atman which is finer than
a hair and cannot be seen. All things in this world perish and are
therefore illusions and the product of our imaginations. The only real
thing about us is our Self which never perishes which was never born and
will never die. We are so preoccupied with the day to day activities to
keep our home fires burning that we forget the only truth about
ourselves. The only purpose of our being born as humans, the highest of
all life forms and the rarest of the rare, the only one with the
capacity to discriminate between right and wrong is to unite our Self
with God. To do this we must meditate and go deep into our Self. For
this sewa, or selfless service, satsang, the company of good people and
sadhna or spiritual practices is recomended.


Hari Shanker Deo


--------------------------------------------------------------



Hari Om

'Establishing in
Self' is one of the three express highways towards the Lord- Jnana
Yoga. Gita calls it difficult because of a sadhak's difficulty in
getting disconnected with body identification. (BG 12:5) ! You must
strive to experience - I am not doer- in Jnana Yoga. In Jnana Yoga, the
EGO is ELIMINATED.

Now the questioner says- show me the way
presuming " I am body" ! Answer is Jnana Yoga (establishing in the Self)
is not ideal path for you to begin with. Karma Yoga (where ego is
purified) or Bhakti Yoga (where ego is changed) is the path for you. In
Bhakti Yoga, a sadhak continues identification with body but assumes it
to be of God. It then becomes the responsibility of God to sever his
identification with body. He need not worry. Karma Yogi assumes it to be
belonging to the world.

Fact remains, however, that which ever
way you go- you MUST consider body to be "not me" and "not mine" !!! No
Yogi be Bhakti or Karma or Jnana Yogi can emancipate himself by
considering body to be "me" or "mine". In case of Bhakti Yogi however
God takes over his difficulties of accomplishment of Yoga.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

By not doing anything, you will be naturally established in Self or God;
because in doing, one is situate in the world. See your Self (God) in all, if difficult t
hen
pray to God that "He Naath!  Let me never forget; O' Lord!  Let this spiritual practice of mine be
perfected!"  
By depending on God's grace it will be easily realized as you are already established in
Self.


Meera Das, Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------

 

----------------------------------------------------------




Jai Shri Hari,

Dear
PratapJi,
Sorry to bother you about your wording!

1) You
said: "myself" = "ideas, beliefs, thoughts about me from what all I was
told and believed from childhood as myself".
Q: Is the "myself"
generated only from childhood? Was he already liberated before the
childhood?

2) You said: myself", in fact, appears as "ideas" in
Self.
Q: So, if there is no ideas e.g. in deep sleep (SUSHHUPTI),
does it mean the the person is already liberated?

3)
You said: There is only an Understanding, Realization, or Remembrance
of our true nature being Self which takes different forms!
Q: Does
"true nature i.e. Self" takes different forms? But you already said a
cloud of  "myself" arises and keep on changing forms,  like elephant,
ghost, dear, ball, man  etc etc ............. I think It needs some more
clarification.
  
----------------------------------------------
Dear
B SathyanarayanJi,
There is no better silent place than the lap of
the Self or Supreme Self.

------------------------------------------------
Dear
SreepalanJi,

1) You said "everything is established properly".  Is the "agyan/ignorance"
also a part of your everything? If yes,  please clarify
where is that (i.e. agyan/ignorance) established? If not, then we would
have to say that there is something which is not established properly.

2) Is the knowing/seeing a tendency in the Self? If there exists any
tendency/verb (e.g. to know/see) with the Self,
then the Self will always remain as a subject (e.g. know-er) which is
another form of  karta/doer. In my understanding, it will be against the
true nature of the Self (NAIVA KINCHIT
KAROMI IT - GitaJi 5/8). I think the true nature of the Self is
"knowledge" where know-er , knowing and being-known are merged into one
(i.e. knowledge.)

Thanks & Regards
Niteesh Dubey



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
Pawan Kumarji, it is always nice to ask and
answer such questions again and again and again ........
Those who
answer are benefiting equally or more as it becomes their contemplation -
mananam!
In a way those who ask are only helping and are being
helped.
When you ask : "How do I establish myself in Self? "
It implies you have assumed "myself", wanting to
establish in "Self",  is already separate from Self!
This is one of
major obstacles! Please find out, rather, discover what is "myself" and
Self in your own experience!
If you do not give up, be open to all
possibilities, sincerely seeking the answer from all sources God sends
your way, you may discover that
"myself doesn't exist in reality!
Mathematically,
"myself"
= "ideas, beliefs,
thoughts about me from what all I was told and believed from childhood
as myself"
. Nothing more, really!
So, "myself", in fact,
appears as "ideas" in Self which is Existence - Consciousness or Atman
same as Real YOU, because they appear to YOU and no one else, right?
Pawanji, a cloud of  "myself"
arises and keep on changing forms, like elephant, ghost, dear, ball, man
etc etc. But Cloud is Reality of all forms and It loves them all, play
with them but not attached when they (forms) disappear!As such all forms
are made up of the same stuff as the Cloud!
 Thus, do you see that
there cannot be "how to" establish in Self?  There is only an
Understanding, Realization, or Remembrance of our
true nature being Self which takes different forms!
Again nothing to be done to be Self, just
think, feel, and act from this Understanding!

Namaskr..........Pratap Bhatt


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Pavan kumar

There is some difficulty in synthesizing your question. I am certain you are
refering to a certain Sloka in Geeta; but your translation into English is
rather confusing. Establish "myself" in "the self"? Everything happens in
nature". I think you are talking about actions (karma). Atma (possibly self in
your mes) in a body may consider itself doing certain jobs. These jobs are
inevitable as there is a body (Prakriti - nature?). An enlightened atma, knows
that it is different from the mundane prakriti and recognizes he fact and
inevitablity that actions like filling the stomach, breathing etc are due to the
body-prakriti-nature and it (atma) is not the karta (doer). retaining the body
is a duty of Atma and by allowing the body to eat etc, Atma will be doing its
duty. Such Atma is unmindful of the consequences of such acts. When the body
tastes a red hot chilly, it is the tongue (body) that suffers; and the same is
true when it tastes a "bhalO miShti
rosogolla". Atma maintains the same position. Even Mana when established firmly
in Atma, hardly notices the difference in tastes. Such Mana is Buddhi or Pradnya
and is sthitaH pradnya - or firmly established (in Atma) intelligence.
If you can kindly furnish me with the exact context of your question giving the
no.of the Sloka etc. I may be of more use to you. May God bless you.

Krishna
samudrala

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
The body is as tool to be used to Jeeva. This tool has
to be used to gain Gyana (Knowledge on SELF). Like Bhuddha, Many Bakthas
Etc. Basis knowledge is that anyone can see, is to understand and
accept is that the body has 6 stages commencing from Parimalathe (Just
blooming) and ending with Asthi (Ash) said in Geetha. Then this body is
subjected to changes and cease to exist. So the body and the whole
living things on earth undergoes this same changes. This change ONLY 
caused Budhha to start contemplating to see if there is some beyond
human. As a result he left his kingdom (Riches-Pleasures- Fame- Etc) and
went in search of truth (Self). So did so many men and became great
saints. Here NO ONE with riches-fame-name were able to conquer the 6
stages said above. This means that these were obstacles for liberation.
The obstacles (Riches_ Fame_ name etc) causes to make man that the body
which enjoys or suffers is him. So when Ego, desires Etc 6 gunas
dissipates, the SELF illumines. To illumine the SELF, one need to sit in
silence, preferably amidst Nature like those great saints did.   

B.Sathyanarayan



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try simple things. Consider the Moon of the Earth. Moon was not always there. It
emerged out of some Natural event. Its body is subject to Naturala Laws. It
moves in orbit, reflects Sun light and all that. One day the Moon will cease to
exist. Like it had come into existence from something in Nature prior to its
emergence, it will vanish into something else in tha Nature. So, everything that
is in the creation is established in Nature. The same is therefore true of any
human body - gross or subtle: it exists and eastblished in Nature and Nature
being part of the eternal Self, it is established in the eternal Self. The Moon
has no mind: so it does not matter whether it recognises that Truth or not.
Human mind however has this dilemma. It recognises this eternal truth but
unwilling to accept that truth and live the Truth every moment of life. Human
beings who have read Gita know that the entire existence of each of them is in
the Self but virtually no human being lives every
moment of life in the acceptance of the Truth. I have to interact with my
parents, spouse, children and others. My interaction necessarily is determined
by the Natural Law and my body and mind being in existence of the self. But most
of the time, I think that I am acting and reacting on my own as are others with
whom I am interacting. This is nothing but the immediate self of mine that has
to have an ego to behave in the way I behave. But as a result of this I fail to
recognise and remember every moment of life that I exist in the eternal Self.
What Gita says is that the Truth that I am (and everything else in this Creation
are ) all established in the eternal self is a Truth a Gita devotee may accept
but will seldom remember while he is acting and reacting. Gita instructs that
each one of us not only knows that each exists in the eternal self but also
lives that Truth every moment of life.
A great actor lives in the role that he plays in the drama or the movie: while
acting, he tends to forget that He actually is so and so in the society.
Similarly when we act or react we tend to forget that we exist in the eternal
self. Gita says that we should not forget that for even a single moment. There
is no confusion or contradiction. The instruction is clear. But it is almost
impossible to follow this instruction all the time. That is why Gita says rare
is such a person who is able to experience the Truth (of being in eternal Self)
all the time. Once such a rare person is able to do that he/ she gets liberated
from the bondage of what actions and reactions he/ she may be doing.Just as an
actor knows that the role he plays exists in the Drama and at that same time all
the while acting as per the script and the context of the Drama, he al;ways
remembers that all that he is doing is only as per the requirement of the Drama.
He palys the Role of Ravana as realistically
as he can and yet all the time knows that he is just playing as per the Drama.
That is experiencing being in the state of awareness of the Truth that he is
acting as per the Drama. Knowing that I am acting nd reacting in the eternal
Self is one thing, Gita says some rare persons are able to live that experience
of acting and reacting in the continous state of awareness that they are doing
everything as being in the eternal self and not an an independent entity with
individual ego.
Basudeb Sen


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Question indeed an age old one but yet it is as new as the fragrance of rose as the self â€" soul â€" is yet to know who it is; what it is made up of; what its capability is. If this riddle is unfolded one is on the way to be in oneself or an answer to your esteemed question.

Analysis:

Soul is no less a substance which is bundle of never exhausting qualities and their expressions. Of the infinite qualities it is, gynaan â€" knowledge â€" quality is the one that makes it supreme among its own other qualities besides other substances that constitutes this universe. Its magnificent and unique capability is "knowing and seeing". This is very in short explanation of Self â€" Soul.


01) All is happening in nature- Very right you are but do you believe it so as you believe that fire will scorch finger if put in it. Reply is certainly not as it is merely news item just like many found in daily news paper, any doubt.

02) Be establish in the Self - All substances are in their nature or else the substance will not be there. To be in swabhaava " nature"" is the dharma of substances. Can you please inform any one substance which is not it its nature? Hence all substances including Self "Soul" is established, rather very well established in itself.

03) If I am establish in the Self already, then what is the meaning of instruction to establish yourself in the Self in Gita.- What is stated is the truth and how much of it is grasped by you. Neither one has the "know how" of Self  "Soul" nor has that one attempted sincerely to know, just like the tea time talk it is given the cursory disposal or forgotten even before one retires from the tea time. Precisely, Self - Soul  - if not established in itself, and then where else it is established.

What is meant by "to establish" it is nothing else than being expressing one's own capabilities i.e., to remain as "knower and seer" as knowing and seeing is it's innate and inalienable capability from the beginning less time and shall be so for all the times to come. For instance mango fruit be it unripe or ripe there is always one color viz., green color, red color, yellow color and black color, it is not? That means the color quality is continuously expressing in one color or the other. So, mango being inert dead matter, it is never without any color at all as color is one the special and inseparable qualities of matter. This is / will not / never be found in Self â€" Soul, any doubt?

Therefore, start believing the true knowledge of Self -Soul and it is only said as establishing one in Self -Soul which belief will tend Self -Soul to be in its true nature i.e., ever lasting bliss.

04) Always answered, your acceptance of body as Self is main hazard.-Two independent and self subsisting substances are housed in one and the same place as milk and water are. This togetherness is due to the ageless ignorance born delusion of the Self - Soul  being identified with body or Self "Soul" and body as one. Milk and water can be separated when heated water gets out as steam and milk is pure. So once the belief in the wrong belief of the wrong knowledge of Self "Soul" is evacuated then the true knowledge based belief on Self -Soul - manifests and spreads the fragrance of ever lasting bliss in it. Wrong belief on wrong knowledge of Self "Soul" and resultant conduct is the hazard here.

Conclusion:

Remain as merely a knower and seer as knowing and seeing of Self "Soul" is innate and inalienable and ceaseless expression of Self " Soul," any doubt. So under any circumstances that appears in the knowing and seeing of one, if that one remains as merely a knower and seer, than one is established in one and that brings out one other quality of Self  "Soul " lasting bliss " Sath chit anandam."

On the process of  "knowing and seeing" if doubts exists, please come up.

Thanks for providing an opportunity to dwell in Dharma Dhyaan and of course, it is also a cause for inflow of karma as it is shubha bhaava.

Attempt made to present the best known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.

Welcome for any further clarification.

Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine.

Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of Samykathva.

Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

Yours brotherly,

Sreepalan
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you believe in Bhagavat Gita then please recite one chapter of Bhagvat Gita
then you will find your Self.
Recite at least one verse from Gita then also you will find your Self.
We must have faith and love for God.
There are some slokas pertaining to Atman, if you read its meaning then you will
know your Self
Atman or Soul never dies our bodies dies if you realize this
principle then you
will definitely know your Atman and yourself

Truly yours

Shankerprasad S Bhatt


====================================================





Shree Hari Ram Ram

Please see few of the prior sadhak messages on this topic:

How to remain Established in Self and stabelize Mind, Intellect?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2158

Remain established in the Self
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/657

God Pervades Everywhere, Remain Established in Him
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1668


Gita Talk Moderators
Ram Ram


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:15 am

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Wednesday, April 28, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: Ignorance of Jeev, What Obstacle Jeev Faces?

 

Dear Sadaks,
We know the jeeva travels from body to body, birth after birth even as Humans,
but does not get attracted to Sat Sangh, Doe not listen divine songs,Does not
read Geetha/puranas etc even some one offers holy book and keeps the book in
store room. In Geetha Bagavan has said if I (Bagavan)get one Baktha out of one
crore bakthas, I (Bagavan) can make this earth divine. What Obstacle Jeeva
faces?
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan


--------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING
What are the obstacles to realisation?
The first and the greatest obstacle is the assumption or rather acceptance that
God realisation will take a lot of time. We have to accept the fact that God
realisation and the attainment of worldly things are two different things. The
attainment of worldly things is like a new creation where as realisation of God
is like finding the necklace on your neck. The assumption that it will take time
can be removed and should be removed by one and all right now.

The second obstacle is that there is a lack in the desire to attain/realise God.

The third is that we do not try our best to attain/realise God. We assume
obstacles. We assume that we are not entitled to attain/realise God, we are not
as pure as we should be, we are not capable, it is very difficult, it will
happen when God has Grace on us, this period (Kaliyug) is very bad, etc. All
these obstacles are fictitious. Each and every human being is entitled and
capable of attaining God. It is not possible that a man fails in his quest for
realising God. There is absolutely no doubt in this whatsoever.

God has given us a human life. It has not been given to us by mistake. It has
been given to us for this purpose only. So, nobody should ever be disheartened
or disappointed in spirituality - in the realisation of God. The human life is a
certificate of entitlement for realisation of God. It is our birth right to
attain God. If one tries whole heartedly, success is absolutely sure - in this
life only.

Why do you get disappointed? You are there and God is there. Attainment if doubt
free. There may be delay (depending on the amount you try) but result is sure.
The problem is that very few try. The ardent desire is lacking. Have an ardent
desire and there is no way you will not realise. You listen to discourses - have
been listening to it for years but have not gained - why? You do not grasp and
practice what you hear.

Decide firmly and have courage. I can tell you many paths which you will have no
difficulty in following. If your resolve is firm and you have the courage start
chanting His name from right now. Stop only for eating, drinking and sleeping.
If you do not realise pull my ears. Don't just talk - do it and see the
difference. Just chant His name.

Ram Ram
From Swamiji's Question / Answer Session
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 Sri Sathyanarayan,

Namaste!

There was a little known Benedictine monk who was once a student of Swami Satyananda, who gave him a Christian mantra, to be performed in silence, John Main the monk, made the comment that when you start to meditate, (in the sacred sense), then the Ego knows it's doomed.
Jeshua (Jesus), spent forty days in the wilderness fasting and was tempted by the Devil, the whole story is powerfully symbolic, I high soul with great powers, refusing to give in to the temptation of Satan, (Ego).
The Ego will trick and bind you because it can only exist if a jiva
desires worldly power, and pleasures, sees himself a separate and superior to others. "I know I am special..... my path to God is superior/the only way.... you are a nice chap, but you are going to hell, because you refuse to be among the chosen....... blah, blah". Oh how familiar that is!

To sum up the problems the jiva has with such a blinkered view
of reality
:
Srimad-Bhagavata 3:29:22     The mind of a man who is full of pride, hates Me, abiding in the body of another, views Me as distinct from himself and bears deep-rooted malice to living creatures can never find  peace...

Finally just taking  a part of Sri Sathyanarayan post, '....
even some one offers holy book and keeps the book in store room.'. Do you really think the Ego would want one to start reading sacred and holy texts?
That really could start a battle within!

Om... Shanti...

Mike (K).
------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
Shree Sathyanarayanji always raises issues important to us so we can learn by questioning ourselves!
Swamiji has given very practical answers outlined by our moderators here. Actuall nothing needs to be added, but put another way as I understand them:
As long as man feels gratified through objects external to him such as money, relationships, sex, power over others, fame, etc etc....he is not going to think about questioning the meaning of life! These objects intoxicate him even as objects don't have power to do so in and of themselves!
When crisis hits home, and sure enough they do, some lucky jeevas will turn towards God, turn inward!
Man has to find out for himself that these objects are not the address of happiness and peace!
As I see, God is such a freedom He will not interfere as long as man wants to roam around. He is Infinite Patience Himself, but has give time to man to return Home when he feels tired and intoxication has worn him out! If he doesn't learn, many lives are waiting for him to roam some more!
So, I do my best to see I don't roam around like that.  When I meet a person who wants His address, I point out with finger pointing to his heart to look within, the place where dependencies are none to limit his Happiness and Peace, unlike sense organs and mind do, being limited themselves!
Namaskar........Pratap

--------------------------------------------------------
My friend and fellow learner,

Jeeva is Atma in a material or Prakriti made body. Though in its original and
true state Atma is pure like a well burning coal, it comes into contact with the
Prakriti, and is stained or tainted. This stain is not a scar or is a part of
Atma; but is merely a layer that shrouds the brilliance of Atma. like smoke
covers the fire, dirt reduces the reflecting effort of a mirror and fetus is
shielded by amniotic membrane, Atma is covered by the effect of Prakriti and its
three Gunaas. The outlook of Atma is necessarily and compulsorily hazed. It
hypnotizes itself to the belief that it is enjoying the food, the man or the
woman and so on. That is it develops kartritva Abhimaana - an ego that it is the
enjoyer, it is the doer, it is the all in all. This breeds a
superiority/inferiority complex. It begins to discriminate between beings. It
assumes, wrongly, that human is superior to a dog; a man superior to woman and
so on. In that trance, it is bound to neglect
  the fact that Paramatma holds all creation in the same tenor. That is
equivalent to ignoring Paramaatma.

When Krishna said "manushyaaNaam sahasreShu kascit yatati siddhaye.., he meant
all beings, not exclusively humans. Human being the most inferior of His
creation, what vaasudeva is said is more apt to humans.

Let us be clear about onething Please refer to Kathopanishat 2.23. Paramaatma
has a method of choosing one to be rescued. It is not by Veda study, and such
ritual. You have heard of Duckworth Lewis method of revising the target in
shortened one-day or 20by 20 matches. All of us heard it but how many know how
it works. Not even the umpires. Data is fed into the computer and it gives you
the target. Similarly,the method by which Parmaatma chooses is not known to us;
but there is a method like D/L. All we have to is to submit our data to this
computer of Paramaatma and wait for he out put.

What obstructs Atma or Jeeva is Prakriti which is real not illusion or Maya in
that sense. Atma is dragged into the mire by Indriyas and Mana. Buddhi should
discipline mana and mana should check Indriyas. That's is the only way or
channel thru which a jeeva can submit its data to the Computer - Paramaatma

God bless you, the true Naaraayana

krishna

====================================================

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question
from a sadhaka regarding the obstacles jeev faces

Lord Krishna
says in Bhagavad Gita,
"Trividham narakasyedam,
Dwaram nasanam
atmanah,
Kamah krodhastatha lobhas,
Tasmad etat trayam tyajet. "

(Gitaji 16, 21)
Which means,
There are three gates leading to
hell. Lust,anger and greed. Every person must give them up,since they
lead to the degradation of jeev(soul). These three are obstacles to our
spiritual advancement. The way to overcome this is, through devotional
service.
Chanting of the Holy Names is a very practical way to
attain the Lord in this Kaliyuga.
Thanks.
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu,
M.D


-------------------------------------------------------

The jeeva or Self or Soul or Atma is the only thing which was never born
and so never dies. The reason why it goes through a succession of
births is because of past karmas. Once it takes human form it is the
best placed for God realisation and mukti wherein it will merge with the
parmatma or God and be free from all the pain of birth and death. For
that we should ourselves realise the impermance of this world and its
temptations and go into the Self through meditations so that before we
give up our body we have gone deep into our Self and become one with
God. Our death will then become a Maha samadhi. God or Parmatma itself
is a collection of Enlightened Souls. Therefore to become God is our
ultimate destiny. It is upto us to achieve it in this birth or after 85
lakh births.

Hari Shanker Deo
-------------------------------------------------------



Shree Hari  Ram Ram

SADHAKS IN YOUR RESPONSE PLEASE BE BRIEF, RELEVANT AND RESPECTFUL.

A similar question was asked of Swamiji and summary of His response is - 
There are a number of obstacles -

1) There is attachment for enjoyment of pleasures and desire for accumulation of things.

2) There isn't an intense hunger, longing and quest for God

3) We have become contented with our current state

4) We have believed God Realization to be like acquiring things in this world. Because of this belief,
we give great importance to doing things.  We do not give importance to our discrimination.

5) We do not meet any great soul that has a true knowledge of realization

6) By knowing a few things and engaging in a few spiritual practices, we become arrogant and conceited.

7) Having the inner tendencies such as - by doing only something can be attained; I have not met a Guru;
the times are such; the destiny is such; I am not capable; I am not eligible;
all such thoughts are obstacles in God Realization.


Please view SADHAK Messages on this posting: 

Obstacles to God Realization
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1792

Desire for Sense Enjoyments an Obstacle in God Realization
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2345

Key Obstacles in God Realization - Egoism and Lack of Exclusivity
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2279

Pleasure and Prosperity - Obstacles to God Realization
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2121

Egoism is the Main Obstacle to Realization of Truth
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1904

GITA TALK DISCUSSION


Enjoyment of Pleasures - An Obstacle to God Realization ?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/831


Ram Ram 

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