Wednesday, March 31, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: The Senses are the Doers - Please Express Your Insights based on Gita

 

Shree Hari,
IN ENGLISH

Bhagwaan has in the Gita 18/15-17 given 5 causes for actions (karma), and
Bhagwaan has said not to consider the pure aatma (Self) as the doer, and to
consider the five senses (causes) as the doer of actions, then one will not be
attached to the karmas "actions" and will not get bound by them. I would like to
get your views on this topic. Kalpna Dixit

IN HINDI
Bhagwaan ne gita me 18/15 to17 mekarmo ke 5 hetu bataye hai or bhagwaan ne kahaa
hai ki shudh aatma ko karta na maan kar in 5 hetu ko karmo ka karan maante hai
to hum karmo me aasakt nahi hote or bandhan me nahi bandhte ,
mai aap se is topic par aapke views jaanna chaahti hoo Shree Hari, Kalpna Dixit

=========================================
Shree Hari Ram Ram

The following Gita Verses talk about :

DOER (Kartaa) - Gita
3/24, 3/37, 18/14, 18/18, 18/19, 18/26, Gita 18/27, 18/28

Doership (Kartutvam)
- Gita 5/14

Doing (Karoti) - Gita 4/20, 5/10, 6/1, 13/31

Sadhaks please refer to these verses an help clarify all doubts. Please be VERY BRIEF, RELEVANT, and RESPECTFUL. Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
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Please review few prior discussions at: Then who is the doer? Please help
clarify -http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3357Becoming Free from
Karma Bondage - Actions, Impressions, Doership,
Enjoyershiphttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2187Peace and it's
Attainment through Non-Doing / Non-Doership - Clarification
?http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2918
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NEW POSTING

Dear Sadaks,
Most sadaks are talking of the actions of the body from child born. So much was spoken about Self is different from Body. Birth after birth the same athuman changes body according to the Vasanas, desires, cause and effect. The athuman is the same and nondestructive. So the body undergoes cause and effect as per theory of Karma. Once a man realizes this, he negates body like Jada Bharat, Adi Sankara who offered to be beheaded, Buddha who offered the same, Christ who offered his body for crucification, knowing that HE had nothing to do with the body. Many saints never opened their mouth, or grumbled after they being put to torches. All of them new that their body (Victim) or the other person body (who causes trouble) is the doer. So learned ones knew that they should not do anything body senses pleasures, anger, jealousy etc. All they used the body to serve Japa, Tapa, Sacrifice, Bajan, Sat Sangh Etc. These men lived with family and among the bad people. But they remained untouched to the world, sufferings, pleasures and mental agony. It is only when one says, "I served food to poor" & " I did so much good to brother, but he forgot", then the Karma sticks to that person. One incident,  A peasant came in front of Sri Rama and said, "Forgive me Oh Sri Rama I have done harm to you" and another person said, "Oh Sri Rama with the gold ornament you gave I did business and became rich". Sri Rama answer to both was, " I DO NOT REMEMBER". Ponder over it sadaks. There is saying that, "What right hand gives, let not left hand know". Simple which says, cause of action was disowned.
B.Sathyanarayan 

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SRI RAM
THE FIVE ACTIVE SENSE ORGANS ARE WITH ATTACHMENTS AND LURE THE BODY/MIND  THOUGH THE ATMA IS UNTOUCHED. THEREFORE THE SENSES ARE DOERS AND NEED TO BE CONTROLLED BY MIND AND INTELECT SO THAT DESIRELESSNESS SHALL PURIFY THE SOUL. KARMA IS THROUGH THE SENSES AND MIND  WHICH IS NEVER CONSTANT.CONSTANCY OF MIND AND CONTROLING SENSES CAN ONLY LEAD TO PURITY AND  LIBERATION FROM BONDAGE.
REGARDS
NPANDA

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From Sadhak Posting.......

In Gita, God has revealed either "Nature" (prakriti) or the modes of nature
(gunas) or the senses, as the doer. The modes of nature (gunas) are the evolutes
of Nature (Prakriti), and the senses (indriyas) are the evolutes of the modes
(gunas). Therefore as such, doership is only in Nature. There is no doership in
the sentient Self.

God declares - All actions are performed in all cases by Nature (Prakriti). He
whose mind is deluded by egoism, thinks, "I am the doer."
"Prakruteh kriyamaanaani gunaiyah karmaani sarvashah
Ahamkaara vimudhaatamaa kartaahmiti manyateh."


From "Manav Jivan Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" in Hindi pg 87 in English pg 87 by
Swami Ramsukhdasji

Meera Das, Ram Ram

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Thought is the father of the action. As we think so we shall act. So in any
situation how a person acts depends upon his background, experiences, mental
makeup and so on. It is true that our actions arise from a desire to gratify our
senses. Therefore for a person on the spiritual path, it is important to think
carefully before acting so that we may do what is right and proper instead of
being guided by our base instincts and desires, which leads us to do wrong.

Hari Shanker Deo

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Dear Audrey,

The conclusion is yours. In my opinion, no conclusions are valid when we come to
aspects such as "doership", "doer" and "Vasudevah Sarvam" ... or anything as a
matter of fact. Conclusion always belong to the person who concludes ... nothing
else. Therefore, no one has any right to conclude for you except yourself. I was
just questioning myself aloud ... pondering aloud ... as to who is this doer and
what is this doing ... THAT IS ALL. If it helps facilitating the questioning
within, use it. Otherwise, TRUST ME, you are not loosing anything! Discard it!!

Regards,

Naga Narayana.






What are the senses and how are these originated? When a child is born, the
first sense that comes out from within is weeping "Maaaa", the next sense is
sucking, the next sense is watching its own hands and feet. Next is listening to
others speaking, then to learn how to express by sound. Next comes the tendency
of identifying its own people and surrounding environment and then the tendency
of getting up. Gradually the space occupied by it gets enlarged. In the process
its intectual gets developed and it identifies itself as one of the surrounding
environment.From here its ego originates.In the actual sense, we are simple
agglomeration of machinaries ( so to say our senses) like the steering, the
clutch, the gear, the accelerator, the fuel tank and injecting devices. It has
been very correctly said by the poet : "You do your work, peple think I am
doing.. You are the driver and I am the carriage..you are the room and I am the
occupant". Really speaking what we are, is nothing but the space awarded to us
by virtue of our previous achievements "praravdha".Hence, in short it comes to
the conclusion that, He is the "Driver" the result of actions are depending on
the quality of the machinaries occupying the space which is being driven by Him.
Barin Chatterjee
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Shree Paramatmane Namah
What will you do by knowing this? You are neither a doer nor can you become
tainted by any action (Gita 13/31) Now if the doer of any action is the sense or
not, whether the five senses are the cause of doing of any action, what
difference does it make to you? Simply do not accept yourself at the doer.
Become Bhagwaan's and remain that way. In this there is great joy. so be it,
Vineet Sarvottam
---------------------------------------------------------
Namaste Sadhaks
What is your conclusion, Nagaji? It is really very difficult to understand the
way you write! Audrey Rodrigues
------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Arjuna first thought that he is going to wage war. Then the doer ship was
clearly explained by Bagavan. Then the doer ship was understood and Arjuna
enlightened, waged war to maintain Dharma at large. Here what Arjuna thought
first was that the purpose of War was for kingdom. Then he got enlightened that
the war was not for kingdom. So it means that what ever done for gains the doer
ship gets attached. The same done for Samasta Loka Sukino Bavanthu, there is NO
doer ship. So it is only knowledge that eliminates doer ship to oneself. The
agnan (Ignorance) attaches doer ship to one selfIf one thinks he is educating
his child, then doer ship attaches, causing pain if the child fails or causes
happiness and pride if the child ranks well. here the pain and happiness are due
to ignorance.
B.Sathyanarayan.
----------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om
Yes ! All actions happen in the regime of Prakruti (Apara Prakruti) ! In Purusha
there is not any action. But when any sin or virtue takes places, Self
(Jeevatma/ Purusha/ Para Prakruti) experiences the results thereof. Yes ! It is
the car which runs. The Driver does not run. But when any accident takes place,
car is not punished, the Driver is punished.Kalpanaji ! 5 causes referred by you
are in BG 18:14 not in 18:15 to 17. One of the 'cause' is 'Karta' (Doer) ! Jeeva
becomes that 'karta' by 'acceptance' and hence suffers punishment. When 'Karta'
viz Jeeva renounces the wrong 'acceptance' and admits 'I am not Karta'- he
ceases to be 'Karta' and ceases to be sinful (18:17). It is all "accepted
doership" not "actual doership" !! Actually there no doership in Jeeva. "Actual
doership' is only in Prakruti (BG 13:20) !! "Punishable/rewardable/relevant
doership" is "assumed doership" not "actual doership" !! Gita saying that Pure
soul is not Karta is right. Jeeva is not Karta but 'accepts' to be Karta and
thus artificially becomes a Karta. Without an "assumed" Karta an "activity" can
place, but not "Karma". Hence there is no inconsistency in Gitaji. Sadhak
Ramakrishna is right. Gitaji is right. Sadhak Basudeb Sen is also very right in
his message. In fact Purusha ( Para Prakruti) who is part of God, forms affinity
with Apara Prakruti (inert) ! Not only that, he in affinity with inert also
'creates' an independent entity of him'self' as "Prakrutishtha Purusha" ( BG
13:21- Jeeva ) ... Which creation is called 'Aham' ( ego as stated by Basudebji
Sen ) ! In this 'Aham' (Jeeva) , both sentient and inert are there. The
modification (vikaar) of happiness/sorrow takes place in inert portion only ,
but the "effect/result" of the same is on 'knower' sentient portion !!! In other
words, sentient (chetan) 'assumes/accepts' that sorrow/happiness modification as
taking place in him'self' !! Just as while fever comes in body, we say " I am
feverish" ! In fact when you realise that "I am not doer" then you are neither
karta nor bhokta. ( BG 13:31) ! Thereafter , whatever "activities" take place in
the body of Doershipless/Suffershipless ( Kirtitva/bhktritva rahit) Jeeva are
caused by "Aham vritti" (ego) ! The activities done by this "aham" is stated in
Gita by various ways. Say in 13:29 by Prakruti; in 3:27 by Gunas of Prakruti; in
3:28 by Gunas interplay with Gunas; in 14:29 by Gunas and in 5:9 by stating
senses are consuming in senses. Meaning thereby that whatever activities take
place by internal "karanas" and external "karanas" , are all by Prakruti.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas NB
====================================
Who are the doers? Senses? Mind? Body? ...
IndriyaaNaam hi charataam yanmono'nuvidheeyate |
Tadasya harati pragnyaam vaayurnaavmivaambhasi ||

The mind hymnotized by the sensorial influences and attractions would
chaotically wander as per the sensoiral dictates from its environment just like
a ship driven by a storm drifting in the ocean aimlessly being perpetually
tossed hither-tither by the reckless waves of desires and fears from within.
Just like a ship that is sailing steadily in the ocean is positively guided and
riven toward its destiny by the favorable winds, the senseful mind and body
cluster appreciates the sonsorial reality embedded in its interaction with the
world to steer its way in the ocean of the thoughts and actions to attain its
destiny cutting across the waves of desires and fears in perfect balance -
equanimity and silence. Senses seem to be the doers of everything as far as
the body-mind duo dances as per the tunes of the sensorial signals being
entangled in its interactions with the world around. Desires and fears seem to
be the doers as far as they come out in tides from within throwing an individual
into thoughts and actions. IndriyaaNaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat |
Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || But the sensorial
signals are born dead … never exist beyond their very appearance … then how can
they be the doers?! Similarly, the desires and fears are rootless on their own
perpetually anchoring on each other for their own survival … they die to be born
as each other … they take birth to die for each other … they appear and
disappear instantaneously and simultaneously ... then how can they be the
doers??!! Therefore, the fellow who nurtures them … the desires and fears,
toughts and actions, senses, etc. should be the source for these momentary
entities … but, the fellow is eternally missing not coming into the purview of
any quest from the seekers of the yore ... "who am I" remains unanswered inspite
of the quest waged for milleniums ... then, how can that fellow be the
doer???!!! Same applies to the objects around (Vishaya) … are they the doers?
Their span itself is dependent on the sonsorial life … they cannot survive
beyond the senses and hence are as momentary (or more) as the the senses as such
… then, how can the objects of the world be the doers????!!!! THE ONE that is
the basis for all is PURE and INVARIANT to be the all in this universe … there
can be nothing outside THAT to manipulate upon … nothing can be within THAT
either to urge for operation … then, how can the changeless do anything …
Then, where is a doer? Is there any doing?? Krato smara … kritam smara … …
think … is there any doing? Is there any doer?? … think … Respects. Naga
Narayana.
--------------------------------------------------------------
God has given such a simple to understand Truth. Every thing has a cause or
source. All actions have causes. Planets move around because of the properties/
gunas inherent the, Each man does what the guna properties make the man do using
the senses. Thus, unless one define man as the conglomeration of senses, Man
himself does not act. Only the guna induced sense of ego percieves that it does.
But unless man is defined as ego, man does not act. Then what is man? Man is the
Self that is always in the realized state on oneness with God and the entire
creation. By definition Self does not act. It knows that actions are results of
gunas, senses and ego.I have not found any argument that scientifically refutes
the above logic preached by God in Gita. Basudeb Sen
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Ram Ram
Have not studied the Gita – but in my Humble Understanding –the senses can never
be the doers – they are mere instruments with no independence – How can they
ever be the Doers – and the Gita being God's Song – can never say anything that
is even slightly incorrect.
Ramkrishna
Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: How to Develop Exclusive Devotion like Hanumanji?

 

On this very special day - WISH YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY HANUMAN JAYANTI. The
question that comes to mind is how to develop exclusive devotion like Hanumanji,
where there is love, sweetness and attraction for only Shri Ram. Please site
short incidents in His life that helps increase devotion for Lord Ram.

Bala GK

--------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to the issue of devotion.
Hanuman proved to us that Lord Rama lives in his heart.
Lord also lives in our hearts.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
"Yo mam evam asammudho,
Janati purushottamam,
Sa sarva vid bhajati mam,
Sarva bhavena bharata. "
( Gitaji, 15,19)
Which means,
'Who ever knows Me as the supreme personality of Godhead, without any doubt, is the knower of every thing and that person engages in full devotional service to Me. '
Once we accept Him as our Lord and trust Him completely, then we realise Him easily. Hanuman's devotion is complete and our devotion should be the same.
Devotional service will get us there.
Wish you a Happy Hanuman Jayanti.
Thank You.
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

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Dear Ones, Namaste!
In the deepest sense, Lord Shri Rama is the expression of Unconditional Love, Dharma itself which is righteousness in speech and actions, and flow of Compassion, Humility, Peace! Lord  Rama dwells in all hearts(symbolized by the name Rama) should be the recognition at all times! Hanumanji, is attracted towards these qualities in Rama being an expression of Devotion himself!
You will notice the moment you say "Lord Rama", in your experience, all such divine qualities of Lord rushes in, along with an idol of Him created in mind by what has been heard, seen, read about Shri Rama! So, if one pays attention to these qualities in both Hanumanji and Rama, more devotion pours out!
Also, watch Ramayana(Ramanand Saagar) as often as you can in addition to just reading only!
Hearing the name of Lord is very important aspect of Sadhana! Get lost while watching, in the sense, just notice devotion flowing, tears coming out, mellowing taking place etc!
It helps to know that one is attracted towards qualities in a person's being, "person" being an excuse.
 "God" is the experience of God's qualities only!
Finally, all bodies are symbols of divine qualities, sentient or otherwise!
Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Shree Hari Ram Ram
Hanumanji, did two things very well. Served the world and remembered God.
Hanumanji's only concern in life was to do Lord Ram's work. Lord Shiv has
assumed the form of Hanumanji only to serve Lord Ram. Let us therefore be eager
to do God's work. Only God is mine, no one else is. Ram Ram

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RELATED GITA-TALK TOPICS DISCUSSED IN 2009:

BHAKTI YOG (DISCIPLINE OF DEVOTION, LOVE)

God Reciprocates the Sentiments of His Devotees Gita 4:11 – Share
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2389
DEPENDENCE ON AND REPOSE IN PARAMAATMAA AT ALL TIMES, HOW?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2610
What is meant by PREM? Help me articulate !
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2807
Devotional Love and It's Fruits - Please Elaborate
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2761
Thoughts on Seeing God's Grace in Both Favorable and Unfavorable Situations
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2961

------------------------------------------------
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[gita-talk] Re: In Search of a Sadguru... Please advice!

 

Namaskar,
 
Over the years life has tried to teach me some important lessons. But many of them still remain unlearnt. For the last 1 year I am in search of a Sadguru who can help guide and deploy my intellect in the right direction.  The difference between a normal Guru and a Sadguru lies in the fact that a Sadguru finds a disciple.  That makes my search even tougher.
Can the learnt men in this group provide some light to my quest.
 
Regards
Sriram.S
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Shree Hari   Ram Ram 
 
Sriramji,   Swamiji has written extensively on Guru.  Please read the links provided, as they will be very beneficial to you.    If doubts arise, please do not hesitate to ask any questions for further clarification.  All sadhaks may also provide any further insights.  please be BRIEF, RELEVANT AND RESPECTFUL.  
With Devotion,  Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram
 
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NEW POSTING
 
Dear Soul,
Read Gitaji, Follow Gitaji. God Krishna will help you Himself. No need for any worldly Guru.
Shri Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum.
 
Mahesh Sharma
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Hari Om

Dr Premji ! To go to Guru with sacrificial faggots- if you believe in that, we have no issues. Try it. It is an individual choice. But what will you gain by that? Think over this aspect. There is no purpose served by picking one verse of Gita in isolation. Arjuna after hearing Gita did not rush to implement verse referred by you. Ultimately Self only helps Self. Why don't you scroll through all prior postings where this topic has been deliberated in detail and come with concrete views, rather than blaming any one for misguiding ?

This Satsanga Forum has no reasons to mis guide any one. In fact those who advocate compulsion of finding Guru made of flesh and bones for Realisation only can be construed to be mis guiding the people and not those who say - Don't worry. Your Guru is living inside you. Trust in Krishna. Parrot will come automatically, when fruit is ripe. What kind of mis guiding can be here? What can be guidance be with the stand you are taking?

Do not USE Scriptures to prove your mind's suggestions. Read them in toto. Use Shruti, Yukti and Anubhooti- all 3 principles and then take decision. Throw away mental insistences. Understand this topic in detail.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Shree Hari   Ram Ram 
This particular point of Swamiji's really appealed to me, when I was in search of a Guru - 
 
Just like a Brahmin conducts the wedding ceremonies and thereafter the bride and bridegroom, become husband and wife, like one (lasting bond) for the rest of their lives. Thereafter the Brahmin is not remembered.  The point is that it is a Guru's job to bring a spiritual aspirant face to face with God. After that the Guru's work is completed. It is not to bring the aspirant close to him and to develop a relation with him.
Our main objective should also to develop a relation with God, not with the Guru. 
Meera Das,  Ram Ram 
 
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hey ram,
the difference between Guru and sadGuru is purely imaginary. Guru, by definition is one who removes darkness/ignorance or Adnyaana from the seeker. A guru has got to be sat. Sadbhaava, saadhu bhaave sat etat prayuchyate, says krishna in Gita. The one who removes ignorance from our minds has got to be sat, no other way. hence, the addition of the adjective sat to guru is at best pleonastic. This is one of the counterfeits circulated  by the modern day baabaas and svaamees. Dont beleive them.

There are six factors which combie to take you to a guru or aachaarya. One of these is yadricchika sukritam. That is the totality of virtuous deeds one does without any intention of gaining anything incuding the so called Punya. The best way of finding a guru (who ned not be sad) is to make it your first nature to be of service to fellow beings.

Importantly, remove the stigmatised belief that sadguru seeks the student. Read the Sloka "idam te naatapaskaaya .. " of Gita. Dnyaana Bodha, is not ad on your mobile to come on its own without your request or effort. There is a Telugu song (velugu needalu) Edee tanaMta taanai needariki raadu, SodhiMci saadhimcaali, adiye dheeragunam". if you understand it fine. It says nothing (worthwhile) comes to you on its own; you have to search and toil for it"

Vasishta was the guru of Sri Rama. vaSishta did not go to rama and asked him to be his Sishya. Do you mean to say that vasishta was not Sad guru? Thank

krishna samudrala
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When god is found we call him guru.Guru is gunateetha(ie all above satva rajo tama).so adding sat to a guru may increase his great ness.Dear brother you will certainly get attracted by a powerful magnet soon.And which guru depends on samskara of earlier birth.
 Badri Narayana Miriyala
 
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Dear Sadaks,
Definition of Sat Guru, said in Sastras. Sat Guru- Does not have more than 3 cloths to wear, does not stay more than 3 days in one place, does not beg food more than 5 houses, only talks of Bhraman and enlightens people HE comes across, NO anger or selfishness or pomp and show can be seen. HE has NO dislikes and likes. For earnest seekers of spiritualism, God puts the seeker in tests and Sat Guru comes to seeker. For Durva Guru Naradh was in disguise as a Bhramin. The king Dasarath requested sage Viswamithra to stay an extra day in his kingdom after returning from Yagna with Sri Rama and Lakshmana.
The sage said 3 days is over and he went to forest. Stay tuned in Namasankreethan, Guru you will get.
B.Sathyanarayan.

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Shree Hari   Ram Ram
Simple rule of thumb... if Guru has any interest whatsoever in KAAMINI  (Women) and KANCHAN (Gold/Money) from you,  he cannot be a REAL GURU.  
God has provided us with vivek and all the resources, now it is upto the sadhak himself to not be deluded.   
Meera Das,  Ram Ram 
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Dear All,  Namaskar !

The topic is well dealt so far by other sadaks! To summarize their  views it is said:

1. Sat-Guru is one's own self  and there is no need to find it outside. That inner Sat-Guru is no other than your own Vivek (conscience).

2. The rest of all other type of Gurus found outside your own self are of lower spirituality levels  than your own inner Sat-Guru.

3. I wish to only add that one need to first ascertain firmly with himself as to why at all and what for he needs a Guru! Depending on the purity and sincerity of thought with which one desires to have a Guru, the preset destiny is bound to change with that firm desire and the concerned would get the requisite Guru undoubtedly insted!

4. Concluding, at the hightest level of reality illusive duality vanishes and Guru merges into Sehsh and the vice -verse!

Namaskar once again!
(Kuldeep Kumar Kaul)
------------------------------------------------------
 
Namaskar!
Interesting quest? First and foremost is why we need a Guru. Our day to day principals in life should be very clear to us. Many shalokas and mediattion stages have been prescribed but there is no short cut medicine with Guru or elesewhere. If you read material like Mool Mantra of Jap ji than you encounter the real truth of life and the message therein is "Bey Sachhayara Hoi yeh.....and Hookam Razai chalana" We must increase our "Patrata" and you will keep finding indicators in your road which is also known as God's grace. Be true to your self and think universally, I can guarantee there is lesson in day to day life and that is your self Guru. You can read thousands of pages and discuss these things endlessely whole life, nothing changes unless we start noticing our own life and truth in it. Certain things we will be do while we dont want to and certain things keep happening without your control. You cannot copy anybody's life and experience though there are courses and discourses." Beekha baat adham ki, Na kehan ki na sunsn ki, Jo kehat so jannat nahi aur jo jaanat so kehat nahi' Experiment with your self with truth and guidance will prop up automatically.
 
Hari Om
R.K.Raina

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Hari Om,
             please do not misguide the people. If Krishna is the Jagatguru why does he instruct in Gita 
Tadvivviddhi pranipatena pariprashnena sewaya 
Upadekshyanti te gnanam gnaninah tattvadarshinah.
" Know that, by prostrating yourself, by questions, and by service; the wise,
those who have realized the Truth, will instruct you in that knowledge." (4/34 Gita)
          Scriptures should not be misinterpreted to suite personal view point. Upanishads are the authority on spiritual matters. Upanishad does not teach to accept any God like Krishna as the Guru. Mundak Upanishad teaches in the verse  I-ii-12: "A Brahmana should resort to renunciation after examining the worlds acquired through karma, with the help of this maxim: `There is nothing (here) that is not the result of karma; so what is the need of (performing) karma ?' For knowing that Reality he should go, with sacrificial faggots in hand, only to a teacher versed in the Vedas and absorbed in Brahman." 
           Shwetashwatar Upanishad teaches in the verse VI-23: "These truths, when taught, shine forth only in that high-souled one who has supreme devotion to God, and an equal degree of devotion to the spiritual teacher. They shine forth in that high-souled one only."
          Gita is a Smriti Grantha and Upanishads are Shrutis. Even if there is difference in Smriti and Shruti on any point, Shruti should be considered authentic. So I request you to be faithful to Truth and not to any person because Truth is greater than any person or even god..
              I hope you will not propagate such misleading teachings.
Dr.Premji  
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Shree Hari   Ram Ram 
 
Premji,  regarding Gita 4/34 and need for precepter,  Swamiji has explained these points.  Swamiji only spoke based on what was already in the scriptures.   
 
In the exposition of knowledge (jnana), in the following verses, "pranipaaten
pariprashshren sevayaa" (Gita 4:34) and "Aachaaryoupaasenam," (Gita 13:7) Gita
has talked about serving the teachers and worshipful reverence. The
significance of these Gita verses is that, in the path of knowledge (Jnana
marg), there is a greater tendency to develop arrogance, that "I am Brahma" (I
am that Supreme Reality). In order to alarm the spiritual aspirant, there is
the stipulation expressed or need for a realized spiritual master. However,
even this is only necessary if the spiritual aspirant is lacking in intense
quest or is of the deep belief that only through the instructions of a spiritual
master, he can attain knowledge. But on having intense inner longing, an
ardent desire, the spiritual aspirant will not feel satisfied in any condition
without having attained the divine knowledge. He will not get stuck in any
religious organization, and he will not consider any special qualities in
himself, causing him to become egoistical. Such a sincere spiritual seeker's
quest will be fulfilled by God's divine grace.  
From "Saccha Guru Kaun Hai?" by Swami Ramsukhdasji

He has also said the following in 
Gita Prabodhani.   This has been elaborated at great length in Sadhak Sanjivani.    Here are excerpts from Gita Prabodhani - 
 
"Tadviddhi pranipaatena pariprasnena sevayaa
Upadeksyanti te jnaanam jnaaninatattvadarsinah." (Gita 4:34)

"Understand that essential knowledge, by going to a Self Realized, Great Soul.
By your obeisance and humble reverence, by serving him and with a simple
straightforward heart questioning him, that great self-realized soul, will
instruct you, in (that) knowledge of Truth (jnana)." (Gita 4:34)

Comments - After describing in detail the method of attaining the essential
Knowledge of Truth, then let us say, God is intending to express that simply by
making someone a Guru, one cannot attain knowledge of Truth (jnana), and simply
by making someone a disciple the Guru's duties are not complete. When one goes
to a realized, great Soul, prostrates at his feet (surrenders to him), does all
activities according to his instructions, and expresses one's keen quest and
inquiry into the essential nature, then the Guru, will instruct the aspirant in
the essential knowledge of Truth, without engaging in a Guru-Disciple relation.

From whomever this knowledge of truth is attained, it is essential that that
great Soul be realized and well-versed in the scriptures. If he is realized,
but is not well-versed in the scriptures, then he will be unable to
satisfactorily respond and remove the doubts of the spiritual aspirant's intense
quest for learning and knowledge of Truth. If he is well-versed in the
scriptures, but is not a realized Soul, then his messages will not be solid,
firm, and geniune and therefore it will not have any influence or effect on the
aspirant towards attaining realization.

Of the two, realized soul and one who is well-versed in scriptures, being a
realized soul is more important. In a realized soul, the knowledge of the
scriptures is attained automatically. It is only from the words and messages of
realized great souls that these scriptures were compiled. Their words are
automatically and naturally in alignment with the scriptures.

From "Gita Prabodhani" in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji pg 118

Ram Ram
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Dear Seekers of Vedic Knowledge,

Subject Vedic GURU is a preceptor

Guru word is from Gu- darkness and Ru- to dispel. According to Rig Veda a Guru is a dispeller of inner and outer darkness of his/her disciples. Vedic Gurus are normally Rudrai- having studied till the age of 36 years or Aditya i.e. having studied till the age of 44 to 48 years all Social, Physical, Military and Spiritual Sciences containing seven streams of knowledge. Vedic Guru renders the greatest service to God by spreading  harmonized divine, spiritual and material knowledge (para Jnan) with honesty, straight forwardness, without deceit of any kind for all to enjoy true and spiritual happiness (R.V 1-72-2 and 8).

Rig Veda 5-57-8 refers to the importance of harmonized divine, spiritual and material knowledge and proper education through an absolutely truthful and enlightened GURU (preceptor) for enjoying bliss and happiness. Guru should deal with his/her students without deceit and with pure and honest motive (R.V 5-65-4) and should be devoid of anger, greed, evils and malice (R.V 5-65-1 and 5-82-9). Guru who accepts any kind of donation/money from bribe takers/givers and other avarnas (non-divine people) who are THIEVES of society is a FAKE guru (R.V 1-42-3).

Parents have to convince Guru that money being offered as donation to the Ashram cum School of Guru is their honestly earned money. Since with this money food is to be provided to students, any money taken from bribe takers/givers and other evil minded persons can spread some evil practices/poisonous thoughts amongst the students. Yajur Veda 6-8 Says "O, learned guru we request you to accept our honestly earned money, we offer thee". In the Vedas first and supreme Guru is formless and ineffable God (R.V. 5-82-9) as through His ansh (subtle immortal particle-soul) a-priori and transcendental knowledge is provided to us. Thus God is Omniscient and human soul is omniscient principle.

The Vedic Guru is more like Vashishta of Ramayana, Dronacharya of Mahabharta, Socrates, Plato, Sankracharya, Einstein, Gandhi ji.

More details about Vedic Guru, social ethics, Trivarga (sensate, ideational and idealistic value system), Vedic Universal Equality, Vedic Education system/seven streams of knowledge, governing structure, Vedic mosaic society, institution of marriage, Vedic social ethics etc can be found in Chapter 1 of Glimpses of Vedic Metaphysics. This book is available for on line . Search for the above book "Vedic Metaphysics".

It is not a book on literature and has a few typo cum grammatical mistakes which may kindly be overlooked. (An effort is being made to update the book without these errors). Vedic Society has been explained there in as described in four Vedas. Relevant Veda mantras/riks/hymns have been quoted.

Kindly render divine and noble service and forward this Vedic message to all seekers of Vedic knowledge and ensure that mushroom growth of fake gurus are eliminated for strengthening Vedic Sanatan Dharma.

With kind regards,

Your spiritual brother,

P.K.Sabhlok

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-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Good Idea read the posts listed below I have read some of these myself!

The general pattern of responses is that the Guru will come, if he is to come; your discretion, (I would add viewed through the desire for the Beloved) will guide you, council you. Beware of  pay me and I will get you instant liberation, Gurus. There are a lot of ripoff merchants, around certainly in my country, worldwide I bet! 
If you have a burning desire for the Supreme Lord, look to Him, be prepared for the amazing happenings, sometimes the Guru will come, but you may not perceive him/her, but dear Sadhak please please use you Viveka, not your ego.
I will tell you one other thing, be prepared for a lonely pilgrimage home to Him, it's in such loneness, you may hear The Beloved call!
Whatever is right for you, will happen if you stay focused!
Gitaji, 12:8.   Fix thy mind on Me alone and fix thy intellect on Me alone; there upon thou shalt  live in Me entirely. There is no doubt about it!
If you start to do that, do you think The Beloved would not provide you with all that you need to enfold you in His embrace?

Om... Shanti...

Mike (K).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari  Ram Ram
Today's sadhak message says -    Guru is not a man.  Considering Guru as Man or Man as Guru is an offense.  Guru is the "tattva" (Divine, Essence, Element).  That Paramatma tattva (Essence, Divinity, Truth) present is Guru.  Krishnam vande jagat Guru.  Lord Krishna is the Guru of this World.  Then why must you make a Guru?  If he is the Guru of this entire World, then are you outside of the world?   Consider Lord Krishna as Guru, and Gitaji as His supreme instructions, an extraordinary, divine message for us.  You will not get such a Guru anywhere.
Meera Das,  Ram Ram   
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You remind me of the priest, who is stuck in a snow storm. He prays for God to help him. A passer by comes and asks if anyone needs help, and the priest says "no". After some more praying and even more snow, the priest is feeling cold, and he asks for God to help him, and a man on a horse stops by and asks if someone needed help. The priest says "no". After some more snow and lot more praying, one more person comes there, and the priest says again "no". When there is a sound from heaven, and God says, why are you praying, I sent 3 people your way to help you, and you drove them away !!
 
You do not know in which form the Sadguru comes----by way of books, TV, or someone else's wisdom. Yes, my Guru did come to me. When you are ready, it will happen. But do not wait for that moment or person. Keep meditating, reading and helping others. It will happen.

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

------------------------------------------------------------------
I found this very interesting today's post.  just like the title "mother" is generally for one who has a child.  Until the child arrives, the woman is not called a mother, so similarly, when a sadhak is enlightened (liberated, attains salvation etc.) i.e. darkness is removed, the spiritual guide is thereafter be called a "Guru" (remover of darkness).    That makes perfect sense.  
 
Bala GK
 
------------------------------------------------------------------  
 
 
Dandavat pranams to all in this forum.....
(I am refraining from any indication of who I personally see as a sadguru, only because this is each and every person's individual choice....you cannot take my experience and perception of truth as your own.   Also, my dear Sriram.S......you commented in your query below that the guru finds the disciple, and this makes your seach even toughter.  This is a contradictory thought.    If you accept that the guru is finding you, than truly, you accept that the search is no longer yours.  It is by divine will.....
You are all invited to attend  a very beautiful gathering in the mountains of northern California, dates are June 9th through the 15th (2010), 14 bhakti-yoga festival hosted by  Vaisnava community of Badger California (also renamed "New Braja Village") ......with kirtan, drama plays, prasad etc.  You may contact the moderators if able to attend. 
Dandavat pranams.....
Maha laksmi Dasi
------------------------------------------------------
 
Dear friend,
                do not seek guidance from any nigura Guru in this regard. One who never had a living Guru should not guide others in matter of Guru. Yet if someone guides others saying Guru is not required he himself becomes the Guru of the person guided by him.
You please read Swami Vivekananda, Guru Tattwa by Swami Sivananda, Sant Gyaneshwar in his Jnanwshwari gita, Sri Gurugita, Guru Ashtakam of Sri Sankaracharya, Shwetashwatar Upanishad to get guidance. Any one who has never experienced the grace of a Guru can only misguide you however great scholar he might be.
Dr.Premji  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Dear Ones, Namaste!
Dear Sriramji, if you say that Sadguru finds a disciple, then answer is easy. Just be a deserving disciple, that's all you can do and should do, if Sadguru were to find you!
Sadguru knows True disciple, whereas disciple may not know Sadguru!
From own experience I can tell you that He does find disciple! As I often say and feel strong to repeat it, it is Truth that invites one to discover Itself, because ego is not interested in Truth! Consider yourself lucky to be thinking about Sadguru! Actuall true Sadguru is Atma, your very SELF! Apparent Guru only points to that place!
Keep heart and mind open, attend Satsangs, have like-minded friends, read scriptures, hear Truth more often! If someone's talk makes you happy, and your guts tells you "he/she" knows what you want to know, Trust those moments when your entire being says "Yes, Yes, Yes...." .
Make Devotion and selfless service the part of your Life. Long for Truth!
Soon Universe will conspire to send whatever is needed for you at the time it is needed!
Namaskar...............Pratap Bhatt

 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
If you are destined to find a Sadguru, your yearning fror Sadguru will progressively intensify. Meanwhile, you yourself may become your Sadguru if God wants that way. God is ultimate Sadguru behind you. Trust Him always.
Basudeb Sen
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
AUM
 
He , who cannot even be heard of by many; whom many hearing , donot come to know; wonderous is He, who can teach(Him)and skilful is he, who finds(Him), and wonderous is he, who knows even when instructed by the Wise.

Taught by an inferior man, He cannot be truly understood as He is thought of in many ways.Unless taught by one, who knows Him as himself, there is no going thither for it is inconceivable, being subtler than the subtle .

Thus does the Katha Upanishad reveal to the seeker true (Ch, 1, Sec 2, Sh. 7 and 8 above)

Only when a yearning , pining heart is enabled to recieve intelligence contained in the words directly from the Light contained within itself, the  need of  outer guide becomes redundant , only then ................ 

It is of that experience that Nanak sings , " Ananda bhaya meri maen Satguru maein paya" . Thereafter  the role of the outer Guide , the Man of Realisation, the superior person is over.

The Satguru, who was ever abiding in the heart cavity of the person, but whose voice could not be heard by the person till then, now takes over . The words of the scriptures , the wise men, the saints and the sages, now reveal their intelligence to the seeker directly.................. because The Light in the self is now awakened .........or, rather............ the Mind is now 'dead' , it has stopped  eclipsing that Light  .

Therefore, dear Sadhaks, seek out the man of Realisation, pray to God to make him available ................. the guru that Katha Upanishad (above) speaks about, the Man of Realisation that the Bhagvada geetha speaks about in Ch 7, Sh 3  ..................... and trust God enough to feel that God shall not allow you to fall into the hands of a cheat posing as a  guru. 

It is then that the words of Swami Ramsukhdasjee would need but one reading to become your understanding ' in action '.     AUM 

narinder bhandari

--------------------------------------------------------

 
Hari Om

Sadhak Shriram ! Re_read your opening statements:

Quote
Over the years life has tried to teach me some important lessons. But many of them still remain unlearnt. For the last 1 year I am in search of a Sadguru who can help guide and deploy my intellect in the right direction.
Unquote

Don't you agree that life 'taught you lessons' ? Human Life is your Guru ! You say you need Guru to 'deploy your intellect in right direction' !! Is it in wrong direction at present ? How do you know? Who knows this thing? It is proved that there is some element in yourself who knows ' my intellect is in wrong direction, needs to be in right direction' ! What is that element? That element is VIVEKA- discriminating between 'right direction' and 'wrong direction' ! That VIVEKA is your Guru. That is already sitting inside you ! Why then you are foolishly searching outside for Guru? Do you know, why? I will tell you ! Your mind is cheating you !! Your mind is suggesting ...I will remain like this, find out Sadguru ! Your VIVEKA says ..wrong, wrong direction !! Hence Trust your Viveka !! Did you have to search that element inside you which is suggesting ' There is need for deployment of putting intellect in right direction' ?

You say - "The difference between a normal Guru and a Sadguru lies in the fact that a Sadguru finds a disciple. That makes my search even tougher."

I say- that makes your search not tougher but futile, foolish and totally unnecessary !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari  Ram Ram 
 
Swamiji says that it is virtually impossible for us to recognize a real Guru/Sadguru.   You can only recognize that which is of lesser powers/greatness than yourself.  You are absolutely right... No need to search!  When the fruit is ripe, then the parrot himself finds it.  When you become completely ready for your salvation, the God will immediately provide all the aids (including Guru if needed) for your salvation.  But not if it is false crying. Maa knows when to stop all her work and attending to a crying child whose is in despair.  But she ignores the false cries and continues doing her work.  Let us do our part, and have an intense longing for Truth, for Salvation, for our Beloved, and leave the rest to God.......  Meera Das.  Ram Ram  
 
------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Sadguru is a God realised person. In Hardwar for Kumbh lakhs of holy men have congregated but among them the real Gurus are only a handful. In this forum we are not allowed to mention any particular Guru however there are genuine ones and and many devotees have found solace from them. My personal feeling is that when the right time comes we do not have to go to the Guru. The Guru will come to you.
 
Hari Shanker Deo
 
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AUM
 
We have all intellectually understood the meaning of God, Light,  and the Self being One; of Karma, Bhakti and Gyana ...............
 
we all are choosing  to share thoughts so that the Intellectual Knowledge gets transformed into our Being, into our own Experience, .....................
 
and then the dichotomy begins ................. instead of imbibing the understanding that frees us from all dichotomies, we begin to get caught up by new concepts and conditionings again ...................
 
If we want the experience ...............
 
We shall have to be on guard  that our own concepts donot become so powerful that they become our 'mental positions' and we  feel compelled to defend them .................... and then keep trying to fit the Truth or Reality into the parameters of the Concept .
 
 if God the all-pervading Light,   and Unity of Life , one wishes to understand ....
 
the first understanding must be of  the word guru.................. and concepts and conditionings of mind that prevent us from de-eclipsing the Guru within us  ...........
 
 Light is what we are .............. were and shall always be ............... so we are the guru ( gu-ru)............... but not aware of our own being are we ...........................aum
 
 so, to de-eclipse the Light within, there is a great need to understand that we shall have to become the Right Disciple .............. meaning that the yearning for Truth in us is so strong that our very desire for Truth enables us to absorb the Light from all around us ..............(Vivekachudamani spells out the qualifications of the sadhaka true Sh. 14-17. See also 33 to 42.)
 
the pointers to guide us have been left by all the Knowers of Truth ............... but the Mind is uanable to interpret them correctly and walk the Path because of its own dichotomies  .............
 
it is then that Prayer arises in the heart to God to send us a guru .......
 
and the prayer is always answered ..............
 
we are enabled to recognise the Guru, who had been amidst us all the while, but we had been too busy to 'evaluate' the Guru, rather than see the Light emanating from him.
 
AUM

narinder bhandari

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FROM PRIOR SADHAK MESSAGES: 
 

Sadhak message links on Guru are at :

What is a True Spiritual Guide like?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1161
 
Who can be a Guru?  Part I & II
 
Can there be no liberation without a Guru? 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2039

On Guru Disciple Relationship
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1903

On Guru - Sishya
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1105

Is it not Essential to Engage in Guru Disciple Relationship ?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1819

Worship of Guru - Part 1
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1738

Worship of Guru - Part 2
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1739

God is Guru of this Universe
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1661

Qualities of a True Spiritual Guide or Guru
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1659

Real Guru is your discrimination:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1547

There is no Sin in letting go of false Guru
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1484

Who can be considered a Guru?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1301

Gita Talk discussion links are at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/1121
 
FROM PRIOR GITA TALK DISCUSIONS: 
 
Can There Be No Liberation Without a Guru ?
 
Guru Worship related
 
 
==============================================

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