Sunday, February 28, 2010

[gita-talk] Guidance on Recent Loss of Mother

 

Dear Sir,

I have recently lost my mother where is she gone, she  had spent her life  doing  good  & sacrificing  selflessly for others, she always believed in not living for self.
Deepa Thakkar
 

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Shree Hari   Ram Ram

Namasteji,   What a divine mother !  It is truly a blessing to have lived with such a divine soul !  She is now accessible to you at all times - unlimited.     This is a good time to also pray and converse with our Eternal Mother and Father, who is ever present.   May God Bless You !   Ram Ram       

Please kindly read prior gita-talk messages:   

Advice to one who is Devastated from Recent Loss of Father  - 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2189

Relevant Gita Shlokas Pertaining to Death

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3020

Appropriate Mantras to say at Death of a Loved One

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2863

Life after Death

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/1314

Gita's View on Death

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/1730

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[gita-talk] Re: Then who is the doer? Please help clarify -

 

Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.

The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not the
doer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.

Raam
Kuldeep Chaturvedi
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NEW POSTING

Shree Hari-

Dear Kuldeep Chaturvedi,

I thought I would build upon your correct statement, courtesy of Swamiji:
The mind is not the doer, the intellect is not the doer, the Self is not the
doer. Then who is the doer. Or will it be a mystery.
Comments by Swamiji, Sadhaka -Sanjivani page 1511:
 Therefore doership and enjoyership are merely assumed—'kartahamiti manyate' (3/27). When a striver discriminately, totally renounces attachment to the body viz., wipes out the sense of 'I' and 'mine' (which is actually not there), then he remains neither a doer nor an enjoyer but only a divine entity remains. In this way a striver, having realized the absence of doership and enjoyership in him, is liberated viz., he does not remain a doer or an enjoyer (experiencer) but remains the Pure Self (Divine Entity).

I decided to build further on pure Gitaji/Swamiji  approach, it took a while before I woke up!
B.G. 3:27: All actions are performed, in all cases , by the modes of nature (prakrti). He whose mind is beguiled by egoism thinks, "I am the doer"
Note! All actions..in all cases. (No exceptions!)
Now Swamiji says regarding Ch.3 Verse 27 in Sadhaka-Sanjivani page 346 :
The Lord declares that
all actions are performed by modes of nature, not by the self. [Kuldeep Sir, there is your answer].
Look deep into a couple of choice quotes of Revered Swamiji on this Chapter:
Egoism is of two kinds:- (i) Real as 'I am' (relating to ones existence)  (ii) Unreal (assumed) -as in 'I am body'.
Page 349  .........All action done with the sense of egoism, can never lead to salvation, because egoism is the root of all misfortunes, of birth and death.

I think I might have an answer for your question Madhvi : '
How is one to truly realize the depth of this message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this realization?'   Swamiji gives good advice in Sadhaka-Sanjivani page 347/8:  Even though a striver during his disciplining period, may not feel he is above and beyond the modes of prakrti but when he accepts it to be with a strong faith, he starts feeling himself beyond prakrti.

Om... Shanti...

Mike Keenor

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Hari Om

My compliments to Sadhak Madhavi Doshi. You have raised very valid, deep and relevant questions- Divine Questions. Questions so important that if you arrive at correct conclusions , you straight away become eligible for reward promised by Paramatma under BG 13:23 !! Hence, Divine Sadhaks, let us accord highest respect to these questions and perform a "Jnana Yagya" as narrated in BG- 18:70.

Q 1 - Simply worded , the Self, (Atma) is neither a doer, nor an experiencer.Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something that one has to realize (through anubhava)?

Ans: No ! Jnana here is mere "learning" / "knowing" ! Just acquiring knowledge of this fact is not going to help. You become merely a beast of burden if it is "learning" only. Because it has not become part of your experience. It is a mere theory for you. You have not yet "accepted" this. Actually, you are not believing in it. Your present experience is not suggesting this.

YOUR EXPERIENCE

In your experience, you ( You/you and you only means -All Jeevas ) are "doing" as well as "sufferring" as on today. It is not that you can ever claim that you did not experience pleasures and pains. You only are sufferring ; you only become happy; you only are experiencing Dukhalayam. There is no body else on your behalf who is experiencing sorrows. You only are seen with compassion by Paramatma so that you may get rid of sorrows. You, Madhaviji, as Jeeva, are target of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, Satsanga, Lord Krishna and Gitaji.

In fact, You only are bondaged. There is no one else on your behalf who is bondaged. No illusion or ignorance or something or maya or mind, or intellect or ego or body or some prakruti or some imaginary ghost is bondaged on your behalf. None of them is experiencing sorrows on your behalf. You only are thirsty for SAT, CHIT and ANANDA. You only are striving for PEACE. You only are experiencing "deficiency" inspite of "learning" that you are complete. You and you only are experiencing the viccissitudes of changes and of karmas . YOU ARE BHOKTA- BG 13:20/22 ! You are doer. You are owner. You are permitter. You are sustainer. - BG 13:22 You only go to heaven or hell. You only are sadhak. You only are embodied.

Said Swamiji in a pravachan- quoted in His book - Gyaan Ke Deep Jale, Page No 18:-

Jeev only becomes happy and sorrowful. That SELF does not get happy or sorrowful - this is what we have "heard" or "learnt" BUT We become happy and sorrowful- this is our "experience" !!!

Now if some body says to you quoting BG- 13:31 that - the Self, (Atma) is neither a doer, nor an experiencer, then, Will you require to believe it or not ? How will you believe that ? It is not a Jnana which has yet been experienced by you. You have simply "learnt" it. You have only known it. Of what use then is this Jnana when it is not a part of your experience- except that it becomes your goal ? It is certainly not a part of your experience because you are constantly experiencing doership, enjoyership, pleasures, sorrows, etc on day to day, minute to minute, khsipram to kshipram basis !

But at the same time, what you are not experiencing is Truth ! THAT YOU ARE NOT DOER/ SUFFERER- is a Truth, no doubt about the same. It is the voice of Lord. Then why you are not experiencing Truth ? Why you are experiencing FALSE? Because you have not "accepted" - SAT. On the contrary, You have accepted ASAT/ FALSE , you have accepted "false" as "true" and wrong acceptance has immediately converted itself into your direct "experience" and HENCE you are experiencing false sorrows, false bondage, false fear, false deficiencies etc.

Hence need is to "reject" the FALSE and "accept" the TRUTH. Need is is to use your Power of Belief. Need is to discriminate. Need is to give respect to your Viveka.

Till you do not accept this fact, it will not form part of your experience. Because experience is the outcome of acceptance. As you accept, so you become - BG 17:3 !!

Balance questions later on.

Pranaams !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas, N B

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Hari Om

This refers to query of Sadhak Deosharan Bisnauth. Such queries give momentum to Satsanga. A lot a sadhaks have drawn conclusions based on "activities" (KRIYA) ! But "doership" / "suffership" has no connection with "activity"!! Doership means ownership. It is a fact that the basic nature of Prakruti is "activity". It is constantly happenning without any ownership in Prakruti. But Jeeva forms an affinity with Prakruti. When he adopts the world - BG 7:5 , then he takes "ownership" of certain "activities" which are taking place in prakruti. Thinking/Accepting/Believing- I am doer- is taking ownership. The moment Jeeva "owns" , the "activity" becomes "karma" ! Jeeva owns / becomes "Maheshwar" and "sustainer" - BG 13:22 ! Then every association of him with an activity becomes "karma" for him, and he becomes "doer" of the karma and gets bound by it. The terms "doership" or "enjoyership" arise only in respect of "karmas" owned by Jeeva believing- " I am doer" ! .It is all "acceptance" ! Acceptance converts into experience. Since Jeeva accepts ownership over an activity, he experiences the results of that activity- by means of sukha (pleasures) and dukha (sorrows) , actually only DUKHAs- only sorrows !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas, N B

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Jai Shri Hari,

The Jeev itself is the doer and the enjoyer. Here, the Jeev is defined as "Self/Purushha/Atmaa with its self created/accepted jeevapanaa (i.e. artificial sense of beingness)". Due to the jeevpanaa, the Self/Atma/Purushh is referred as "jeev". The Jeev can not exist without its jeevapanaa. It it exists, it will be called as  Mukta/Free/Realized/Self/Atma. The Self/Atmaa, part of the Supreme Self, appears as Jeev due to the "jeevapanaa" which is nothing but a layer/curtain/granthi/bandhan created/accepted due to the influence of the qualities of the prakriti/nature from time immemorial (MAMAIWAANSO JEEVLOKE JEEVABHOOTAH -GitaJi 15/7; SATTVAM RAJASTAMAITI ...TANIBADHNAATI ...-Gitaji 14/5). Depending upon the dominance of the saattavik/raajsik/taamsik quality of the nature, the jeev becomes saatvik/raajsik/taamsik karta/doer (GitaJi 18/26-28) and the same becomes the enjoyer (PURUSHOO HI PRAKRITISHTHO BHUNKTE - Gitaji 13/21). Here, the word "PURUSHHO PRAKRITISHTHO" refers to the jeev who is nothing but "the Purushha/Self/Atma established in the prakriti/nature/inert".

May God bless all!
Niteesh Dubey

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Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||
Dear Kuldeepji, thanks for a good question!
Swamiji Maharaj has addressed this question directly in Gita Prabhodini (Page 500, commentary on Gita: 18-16) and (Page 87, commentary on Gita: 3-27):
IN ALL ACTIONS 'DOER' IS THE MAIN ENTITY BUT WHO IS THIS DOER? 
THERE SEEMS TO BE AN APPEARANCE OF DOER-SHIP IN CHETNA (SELF). IN FACT 'DOER-SHIP' IS NOT THE CHETNA BUT
THE DOER IS HE WHO HAS ASSUMED THE FALSE RELATIONSHIP OF CHETNA WITH JADA (PRAKRITI OR NATURE). As is pointed out in Gitaji:
''ahmakaravimudahatma karta 'ham iti manyate" (Gita: 3-27)
- The ignorant, deluded by egoism thinks, "I am the doer".
Jada part (Nature, Prakriti or body) is a separate entity from Chena part (Atma). All actions are done in Jada only, there are no actions performed in Chetna. As it is said:
"sharirstho 'pi kaunteya no karoti na lipyate" (Gita 3-31)
- Self, though dwelling in the body, it neither acts, nor is tainted.
The actions and objects have a beginning and an end, but Chetna has neither a beginning nor an end.
In fact there is no doer, neither Chetna (self) nor Jada (Prakriti). But if one has to believe in a doer, then the spiritual aspirant should believe the Prakriti (or Jada) to be the doer.    
Lord has declared in Gitaji that there are five causes for any action:
1. Prakriti - 'prakrteh kriyamanani' Actions are caused by and done by the modes of nature (Gita: 3-27), 'prakrityai 'va ca karmani' all actions are done by Prakriti (Gita: 13-29)
2. Guna - 'guna guneshu varanta', Gunas that move amidst the Gunas (Gita 3-28)  
'na 'nyam gunebhyah kartarm', The seer perceives no agent other than the Gunas (Gita:14-19)
3. Senses - 'indriyani 'ndriyarthesu vartanta', senses are moving among the sense objects (Gita: 5-9)
4. Nature of person - 'svabhavas tu pravartate', It is nature that functions (deriving its motive power from God (Gita: 5-14), prakritim yani bhutani…, Beings follow their nature (Gita: 3-33)
5. Five causes (Panch hetu) - 'adhishthanam tatha karta' …, The seat, the doer, various sense functions, diverse activities and the fifth is providence (Gita 18-14)
In the five cause mentioned above, the main one is 'Apraa Prikriti (Lower nature) or Jada part. Till today the Jiva (individual) has done many actions in many Yonies (species), among those actions, none was associated with self. How can the darkness come close to sun. The reason being that entity containing actions, body and objects is entirely separate from the self.    
|| Ram Ram ||
Humble regards,
Madan Kaura   

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Hari Om

It appears that it is God's will that I must write again. Hence making an exception. I found earlier discussions between Madanji, some Madhaviji and Ramakrishna Prapann to be interesting. I have few serious resevations regarding their conclusions - though they are at a very high and subtle levels, but for them, may be they are very necessary to sort out. I shall deal with them if they are receptive to corrections.

Let me reply Kuldipji !

Mind/Intellect/Senses/Aham is not 'Karta' (Doer) ! Self is not Karta . Then who is "doer"? "Karta"(Doer) is that who becomes "Bhokta"(enjoyer/sufferer)!

You ... Your "Self" ...become the "Bhokta" ! Same you become "Maheshwar" also ! Same you become witness also. Same you become "acceptor/permitter" also - BG 13:22. You become "bhokta" by forming an affinity with Prakruti/ Gunas - BG 7:4 ! Self adopts the world and hence is called "Jeeva" !

Jeeva is Bhokta. Hence Jeeva is Karta. If you are not "prukruti-stha" and are "sva-stha" - you are neither Karta nor Bhokta and hence not Jeeva. But when you ... I repeat... When Your "Self" (pure soul) .. Establishes affinity with Prakruti then ...You ..I repeat...your "self" .. Suffers/ Enjoys ! You become cause for "sufferring/enjoyment" - BG 13:20 !!

The form of your "Self" is "Existence" ! In form there is neither "Karta" nor "Bhokta"- BG 13:31. You (Form, Pure Soul) are the knower of 'bhoga' - the very knowledge form. In "existence" there is no "bhokta-ness" (enjoyership/sufferership). That existence is in unity with with all pervading universal Paramatma.

If you "accept" , your self to be established in Body, then you and you ONLY are Karta and Bhokta, otherwise neither 'not' (asat/inert) is Karta, nor 'IS' (sentient, pure soul) is Karta. Therefore, remove your self from 'not' as well as from 'Is' ! Neither keep unity with inert/asat nor keep unity with sentient/sat.

If you see "shoonyata". (emptiness/zeroness/ blank/nothing) ...then you are knower of that 'shoonyata' and that shoonyata is subject matter of knowledge. One who knows nothingness (shoonyata) is never shoonya(nothing) ! You are witness then of that nothingness, you are illuminator of that, you are basis of that !!!

Thus ONLY... Jeeva is Karta and Bhokta not ignorance or some thought or some that kind of any animal etc !! Ignorance can never be cause of sorrows (A separate topic). It is effect not cause. Even the cause of your forming affinity with Prakruti is not ignorance, but disrespect to Viveka and desire to enjoy worldly pleasures.

Coming to this lover merging into love etc talks- remove yourself from "this" as well as from "IS" ! Then only yoga will remain , only EQUANIMITY will remain. There is no personality in "IS" ! Thus there will be no Yogi (Karma Yoga) or Jnani (Jnana Yoga) or Lover (Bhakti Yoga) remaining behind. Only Yoga or Jnana or Love respectively will remain.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Namaste.


It appears to me - and I am may be in error - that there is not a consistent meaning or interpretation of the term "DOER."  Even amongst knowledgeable sadhaks there are varying interpretations of "DOER."

What do you mean by "DOER"? Just mere deeds and actions? At times, the term "ACTION" is also not clearly defined.

I humbly submit that we should present a well-defined meaning of  the term "DOER" so all sadhaks would be in the same wavelength when discussing one of the most important issue in GITA, and HINDUISM.

Ram Ram, 
Deosaran Bisnath
 
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Sun, Moon, Clouds, Ocean Water, Trees do not have mind or intellect. Maybe they do not have Self. But Sun burns anf gives light, the Earth moves round the Sun, Moon reflects Sunlight, Clouds burst and transforms into rain, Ocean water curns and evaporates to form clouds. These things happen. But we say these things do such things. But do they really do anything? They do not do anything. It is the property/ guna and nature of these things that they seems to be associated with certain events and phenomenong. So things happens but no body does. There does not have to be doer. The concept of doer is the product of mind and intellect - but in reality doer does not exist and does not need to exist for certain phenomenon and events to take place. What is needed is properties or gunas that leads certain objects including life forms to behave in certain manner under certain conditions. A car runs but stops if there is no fuel. Car does not doing anything. The phenomenon of car running happens given the properties of the car and certain properties of other objexcts in the environment of the car. A man eats at certain times if food is available. Man eating is a phenonmenon that results from the properties / gunas/ nature of the man and other objects surrounding the object man. It is not necessary to really believe than man acts or does: the phoenomenon of man's behavious occurs. There is no doer. The concept of doer is an illusion. You do not need a door for the Universe, Creation and the processes that continues in the Creation. So, your question just does not arise. Or, if you want to know who does, the answer is no body does, doer does not exist. Things happen without doers. Since this is the Truth, Gita says remove ego of doing. If you think anyone is doing, then it must be the slave of the Gunas. If there is anything you want to be do not be doer and therefore a slave of gunas. The only alternative is to recognise that on one is doer.  If you remain steady and settled in that Truth, you will identify yourself with an identity of non-doer. As non-doer, all are the same -equanimity follows automatically. That non-doer cannot logically have any desire and therefore any action to satisfy that desire. Your body, mind, intellect may still be part of the phenomenon of satisfying desire through certain behaviour. Just like the Sun burns but the Sun is not the doer of burning. The phenomenon of burning of a type is what we call burning: that ios the guna of Sun. I or You do not do anything nor does he or she : none is a doer.
One that realizes this Truth every moment is the Self: But the Self also does not - it is not a doer of realization of Truth. The Truth realized state is named Self - Atman or Paramatman.
Please let us not think that Self is not like a grand old man who cannot work / do and therefore is thinking of God all the time. Self is not a man or woman or animal or a physical object: it is the state or realized truth as against the state of slavery of Gunas. Both exists simultaneously - the first nevers changes and continues indefinitely while the later changes virtually every monent and transforms and at some stage just disappears. The first is not observable by senses, the second is an observable phenomenon for the senses.
Basudeb Sen
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There is only one doer..........It is his grand play....
 
Question is who are we?  or Who am I? 
Do I exist?  or Do we exist?
 
Body, mind and intellect are the means for Manan (contemplation) and understanding of truth to experience this truth.  Self experiences it......and is the doer...., the story writer....the director....., the creator.....
 
Sushil Jain
 
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Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.
All actions take place because of modes of nature.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
" Prakrteh kriyamanani,
Gunaih karmani sarvasah,
Ahankara vimudhatma,
Kartaham iti manyate. "
( Gitaji 3, 27)
Which means,
'When all the actions take place because of modes of nature, a foolish person because of false ego thinks he( or she) is actually doing those actions. '
The modes of nature are Sattva (goodness), rajo(passion), tamo( ignorance).
The supersoul( paramatma) gives certain freedom to soul ( jivatma) to decide for himself or herself. The supersoul is the witness for every action, thought, and word.
A person situated in Krishna consciousness, clearly sees that gross ( subtle body) is created from material nature, under the direction of Supreme Personality of Godhead and hence bodily activities as well as mental activities should be engaged in His service.
Actions continue to take place even when we think we are not doing any.
The best course is to do actions for the welfare of others and in the name of the Lord.
Thank You
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Real doer is the "the thought" saying "I am the doer"! If you can look at your experience, you will see that while doing any action, the thought of being a doer is not present, but soon after action is done,  the thought appears: "I did it" or "I didn't" or such similar thoughts arise. Doer is an "after-thought"!
 It is also possible that during the action, this thought may arise if interruptions happen. It is hard to notice this fact of our experience as it happens so fast!
Now this "doer" thought originates from "me", a person - ego - ahambhav! Such a "me" develops over time from childhood onward remaining at the center considering itself as the doer-enjoy-er. If we go deeper, we can see that it is due to body identification, Self apparently imposes limitations on itself and mind becomes its tool to hold history of such a person in terms of likes-dislikes, latent tendencies, attachments all as thoughts(beliefs, opinions, biases etc etc!
The history is really conditioning-Karma in terms of memory only, but needs a center to act which is "me". Thus a body-mind provides an anchor to root such "ego-me".
Put differently, it is a kind of programming of body-mind organism by the culture prevalent in desh-kaal or time and place such a person is born and raised! This Programming is the "doer-enjoy-er" working its way through individual body. It may appear that person is doing, but person is only a tool, an excuse through which karmas-conditioning works themselves out and keep recycling karmas through new bodies! Ignorance is at the root of all this, until God bestows Grace!
Swamiji, below, puts it as "
In fact, he who experiences (becomes happy and sad), he is the doer (agent). " Thus it is clear happy-sad is Ego who usurps the doership!
This is anatomy of ego-me as  I understand it!
Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt

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Shree Paramatmane Namah
when there is no doer whatsoever, cannot be at all, then why pursue it's search?  That which regulates and governs everything in accordance with natural laws and principles, through That alone all things are taking place and getting done.  But anyone alive cannot show you that this one is the doer.  If someone reveals to you the doer, then please tell me as well, as per my knowledge, Swamiji also could not find the doer.  So be it,   Vineet Sarvottam
 
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Dear Sadaks,
Jeevathuma is separate from Paramathuma. Jeevathuma acquires certain desires, and Vasanas. The Jeeva has to obtain a body for that to shed away it` s desires/vasanas. It can be human body, plant, animal, Indras, Gandervas Etc all within the circle of 13 Lokas. Once a body got hold of by Jeeva it starts functioning to complete desires. In this process the mind (Buddhi) leads one to go into the desire. Like a person going for gambling, womanizing, robbing Etc and but due to previous Good Karmas there is also desire thereby developed towards Sat Sangh, Bajans, Sevas, Meditation Etc. Examples; There are persons walking across a street where there is divine song is broadcast by amplifier speaker. All persons have common hearing faculty, but only one or two stand there to listen. Other just walk away. We see young persons attending divine lectures. But it is 2%. Balance 98 % are busy with entertainment. This is because of their Karma Pala. Here the doer is the body and Jeeva is witness. The intellect (Vivechan) keeps on warning about good and bad. The intellect is guided from Paramathuma energy within ones own body. Bagavan Shiva is destroyer based on ones own Karma Pala. So also is Sustain-er is Bagavan Vishnu. Bagavan Bhrama is creator. All three works strictly on ones own Karmas. Bhramaji four heads denotes Chatur Yug (4 yugas), creator with knowledge known as Saraswath. Sri Vishnu is sustainability in Violet colour, with aid of money (Wealth- those days there was NO currency) Maha Lakshmi and Garuda (Speed) required for sustainability. Sri Shiva Bagavan destroys the body in time span allotted, and that time goes away very fast (But the time moves like Bedfellow for ignorant humans that not realizable) and ends up with Ashes (Asthi said in Geetha). But during life span mother Parvathi gives Sakthi to perform Karmas. So the doer (The body- which is said as, Maanusha Deham Dulabam) can perform (doer) any act of goodness, purity, divinity, scarifies Etc  and escape rebirth. Alternatively do all the bad and be born again and again. Ref: Baja Govindam, Vivekachudamani, Geetha, Garuda Puran and Upanashids. Due to the doer (BODY) the Jeeva gets trapped into different bodies  to complete its desires or escapes to Mukthi.
B.Sathyanarayan   
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Then who is the doer? Could anybody please help clarify this.
One who percieves the doership is the doer in the very perception. Till you percieve doership, you are the doer. Doership implies that (1) there is multiplicity in action; (2) action is under the governance of objects; (3) the domain of action is within an individual's perview. If your perception agrees with these postulates, you are a doer. Note that doership being variant and plural conforming to the nature of the corresponding perception, insists variance and plurality in the doer as well.  In case, you develop a doubt regarding these postulates, you may want to consider Lord KrishNas instruction in Bhagavadgita regarding the same ...
For example, Lord KrishNa states at one point that, 
Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh |
Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate ||
There is no doership of any kind as such. The action is absolutely independent and remains as is by itself i.e. action is self-effulgant and self-sufficient. Therefore, there is niether plurality in the action nor there is any doership to overlord the action. The world and its objects merge in the action as per their inherent nature as they are and on their own. 
If you do not percieve any particular doership by realizing how the action transcends the authority of anything and everything, there is no doership to dictate terms to the action; and hence there is no doer. Therefore, either you are a doer or there is none. That is your call. Therefore, to get a resolution on this, 
Krato smara … kritam smara …
Contemplate whether anything was 'done' and whether there was any 'doer' … 
Krato smara … kritam smara …
Contemplate on the 'doer' and on the 'done' to determine their true nature and relationship. 
Krato smara … kritam smara …vayuranilamathedam bhasmaantagam shareeram … 
Contemplate whether there can be any 'doer' as all the bodies that "do" are nothing on their own; and everything that a body ever "does" is actually a natural transaction between matter and energy which are vested in the action that permeates them as well as everything that is permeated by them ... is there anything that is manipulated in the first place?! Then, is anything 'done' at all??!! Then, where is a 'doer'???!!!
Contemplate … if you seek a resolution … 
Respects.
Naga Narayana.

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KARTA PURUKH

Karta is not the karta…

 The Karta is indeed the Akarta… For, the freedom to`do', He gave to you… 

And chose to remain the compassionate loving One-ness ..

 Ek-Omkar…

Ek-Omkar,

One-ness of your Being and His own Being…. Pure Silence… The Nothingness . The Shoonya  Purnam .

In His Choosing ,

 In Love, choosing to give you freedom of Being….

To be, to do, to play, to sow, to reap.….In His Compassion, remaining only as The Law…

 The One Law…. The Immutable law… Just the undoing of that you must perforce ` do'

In so Being… He became… the All doing… The all Doer…

And,

 If your Intellect reels under the weight of trying to understand

 Understand the Non-understandable..

 Knowing the Unknowable …. Better that you stop trying…Just adopt one of the two as your Doing….

That …..He indeed is the all Doer. All doing… you do nothing !

 OR

 You are the doer… Just you… He is indeed the loving father

Indulgence supreme allowing you total freedom to do !

The Choice is yours….. The Immutable Law… Will take care of the rest…

 Effortlessly, one day, some day…. when Time ceases to be.

In the Eternity of This Moment Now

 The Understanding will dawn on you…

 That Doing and Not-doing are Not - two.

 The Karta… is He…

 He , who is the Akarta   The Akarta, truly , is the All doer.

And,    You….?

 You were un-necessarily running hither and thither..

 Running, doing…….   DoingThis and That … !                Ek omkar  Sat  nam…….

AUM

narinder bhandari

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Doer is your own Atma's Godliness within you, which is an Amsha of the Eternal God.
It is within the sphere of Maya, which is weaved by this God, and therefore your action is guided
by your Prarabdha of Karma-borne-tendencies, at the mind and intellect level, which are modified by your experience and knowledge gained in this life, and which have to be surpassed for it to shine through without any hindrance, obstacles or curtains. 
 
If the spider moves, the entire cobweb of Maya moves. The fly caught in the cobweb, thinks he
moved it, and forgets that the Maya is the cobweb, moved by the Spider, and the fly is actually caught
in it !!
 
Is God a Spider-man ?----Yes !!!
d

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

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PLEASE READ PREVIOUS SADHAK POSTINGS ON THIS TOPIC. Sadhaks please be brief,
respectful and relavant. Thank you,
Gita Talk Moderators,
Ram Ram

There is No Doership in the Self
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1394

Neither God is the Doer, Nor Self (Jeev) is the Doer.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1582

Doership and Enjoyership are Merely Assumed
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1629

There is No Doership, Nor Enjoyership in the Self
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/1895

-----------------------------------------
PRIOR GITA TALK MESSAGE.... SUMMARY

Shree Hari

Ram Ram!

Very good response to the questions! I would like to add to the response for
question #3 (Verse 13-34) in green -

13th Chapter of Gita predominantly deals with Jnana Yoga, in Jnana Yoga, the
realization is through use of Viveka and Vichaar, pure intellect transcends to
Viveka according to Swamiji Maharaj, which in turn will lead to acceptance by
the Self!

In contrast, for the Bhakti Yoga the realization comes through the acceptance by
the Self through complete surrender to God as already explained by Madhviji in
the response in red.

With warm regards,
A devotee!
Madan Kaura



-------------------------------------

Ram Ram
 
Please see comments in red.
 
Questions:   
1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)?  Or is it something 
that one has to realize (through anubhava)? 
The jnana that we talk about is knowledge through our intellect. We have merely learnt these facts without accepting them. The learning is by the intellect (a part of prakriti). Realisation comes from acceptance - not be learning. Acceptance is not done by mind or intellect - it is done by the Self. What is stated in the Gita is true. They can be experienced by acceptance only. In fact, we all have experienced this fact. We just do not give it importance. Who amongst us holds ourself responsible for the circulation of blood, for the digestion of food? These are actions that happen naturally - we do not hold ourself to be the doer of these actions. If you are engrossed in a particular activity you will not even realise it if an elephant passes in front of you. You become the experiencer only when you join yourself with the activity. When you become the doer or have a desire for the result.
 
So the realisation comes by acceptance. The experience is actually your acceptance.
 
2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untainted 
by anything,  why has Lord Krishna given so much importance and 
dedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti 
(nature),  such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs of 
yoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.  
As stated by Madanji, the Gita is for everyone and different people are at different stages. The percentage of realisation and acceptance differs. The reality has been stated and all means to realise the reality has also been stated. The Gita does not give you just one path - it gives you all the paths. You can choose whichever one suits you best. The fact that this question has been asked, shows its importance. Lord Krishna has given it so much importance because we are so much attached to prakriti and its Gunas, even though we are flawless and untainted.

3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one who 
perceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees the 
Self as separate from Prakriti has attained the Supreme 
Consciousness."   How is one to get beyond just knowing and actually 
perceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) and 
Prakriti - the Field  (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that is 
born of nature).  How is one to truly realize the depth of this 
message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this 
realization?   

The true depth of this message is realised only by His Grace. His Grace is always on us. We just have to accept His Grace. We just have to realise His Grace.
 
Realisation comes from acceptance. As Swamiji used to say -
'Once, with a simple heart and with determination, firmly ACCEPT -
     i.   I am only God's.
    ii.   Only God is mine.
   iii.   Only God IS.
   iv.   Everything is only God.
 
This is a sure shot way of realisation. There is no doubt, can be no doubt in it. Those with a reasoning and thinking mind can think and reason all that they want to but in the end they will have to come to accepting this fact - because it is THE TRUTH.
 
Ram Ram
Ramkrishna Prapanna

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram!

Some comments to promote further discussion and enquiry... on Geeta shaloka
13-31 ...

1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something
that one has to realize (through anubhava)?

Comment:
Simply knowing this fact (nature of Kshetra and Kshetrajna) is not of much good
without the personal experience it is only a burden, it can give us a false
pride
that we know and others do not know. Anubhava is very essential, that is why
the scriptures follow the saints and not the other way around, because the
saints
have the experience, Kabir was one example. A crude example - knowing without
experience is like donkey carrying a load of scriptures.


2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untainted
by anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance and
dedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti
(nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs of
yoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.

Comment:
Gita is a complete sastra, it is meant for all people coming from different
backgrounds, different stages of evolution, different sampardayas etc. Majority
are not ready to accept or have faith in the idea of non-doership right at the
outset, scientific background is necessary for the reasoning mind.

Lord Krishna is expounding the relationship between the three entities -
God, Jiva and Jagat. Discussion of gunas is essential to understand the working
of Prakriti, to show the wide diversity in the individuals. Even though,
everyone's body is made up of the same five elements and soul is the same being
a ray of supreme consciousness but yet there are differences in the mind
complex.
In essence Gita is taking us forward from whichever station we happen to be at.

3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one who
perceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees the
Self as separate from Prakriti has attained the Supreme
Consciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actually
perceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) and
Prakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that is
born of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of this
message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this
realization?

Comment about Shaloka # 3-34 -
There are many places in Gita (e.g., Chap 2 / 11-30)
explain what is real and unreal nature of man. Those with a reasoning mind
can reason and toil through the present life and many next lives to
understand these truths. Reason will take us to a point only and then stops.
The journey for the jnani is a tough struggle with lots of trials and
tribulations with limited success particularly in Kaliyuga.

Shaloka 7-14 says My Maya (Divine illusion of Mine)
made up of three Gunas is very difficult to surmount; but those who take refuge
in Me alone, cross over this illusion".

Those with devotional tendencies simply accept that there is nothing
else except God. They believe that are God's and so is everything else.
They firmly take the refuge at the holy feet then do not have to tax their
mind anymore,they attain to permanant Vishram sthiti only.


With kind regards,
A devotee
Madan Kaura

-----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari
RAM RAM ! Jai Shree Krishna !

Lord Krishna, says in the Bhagavad Gita Shloka 13:32
"Anaadityam Nirgunatvaat Paramatmayam Avyayah
Sharirastho pi kaunteya, na karoti, ne lipyateh."

"The consciousness (Atma) is without beginning, immutable and devoid
of any material attributes. Oh son of Kunti, although dwelling in
this body, it is neither a doer, nor is it influenced by any
experience." Gita 13:32

Simply worded , the Self, (Atma) is neither a doer, nor an
experiencer.

Questions:
1) Is this just a matter of knowing (jnana)? Or is it something
that one has to realize (through anubhava)?

2) Since the Self is neither a doer, it is flawless, and untainted
by anything, why has Lord Krishna given so much importance and
dedicated chapters of the Gita to that which is born of prakriti
(nature), such as Gunas - Rajas, Tamas, Sattva, eight limbs of
yoga, purification of thoughts, actions etc.

3) Further in Gita 13:35, Lord Krishna also says that, "the one who
perceives with the eye of wisdom, this distinction, and sees the
Self as separate from Prakriti has attained the Supreme
Consciousness." How is one to get beyond just knowing and actually
perceive this distinction between Self (Knower of Field) and
Prakriti - the Field (Body, Mind, Intellect, Ego and all that is
born of nature). How is one to truly realize the depth of this
message? Does Gita elaborate on the means to attain this
realization?

A sadhak

Madhvi Doshi

Ram Ram ! Jai Shree Krishna !



-----------------------------------------------------------

|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

25th February 2010, Thursday, Falgun Shukla Ekadashi
Vikram Samvat 2066, Sri Krishna Samvaat 5235

Now let us think over – Where does a desire abide? Several say that the desire
is in the mind. But actually a desire does not abide in the mind, rather it
comes into (visits) the mind - "Prajahaati yadaa kaamaansarvaanpaarth
manogataan" (Gita 2/55). The mind is an inner instrument. In an instrument
there are no desires. Does a pen have a desire to write? Does a motor car
have a desire to move? No! If we hold that the desire resides in the mind,
then if the desire is not satiated, the mind should suffer pain. But it is the
doer (Self) that undergoes suffering resulting from un-fulfillment of desire.
Therefore in fact the desire does not abide in the instrument (mind, intellect),
but abides in the doer (agent). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer
(kartaa). Being entangled in the duality in the form of happiness and
unhappiness, resulting from fulfillment and un-fulfillment of desires, man's
discriminating faculty does not function properly and he holds the desire to be
in the mind.

Now let us reflect on - Who is the doer? If mind was the doer (agent), then it
would not act being subservient to the intellect. But it is everyone's
experience that the mind renounces the desire to do a thing, that the intellect
determines (decides) not to do, and it begins to desire to do the act that the
intellect determines (decides) to do. But even the intellect is not an
independent agent; because the intellect is also an instrument. When a man
derives pleasure from satisfying a desire, then the intellect decides to do that
action. But the man who knows that the enjoyment of pleasures results in pain,
renounces the pleasure derived from fulfillment of desire; then his intellect,
instead of being inclined towards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire for
pleasure. The instrument is dependent on the agent and is very beneficial in
accomplishing an act - "Sadhaktam karnam" (Paani. Astaa 1/4/42). But doer is
independent - "Swatantra kartaa" (Paani. Astaa 1/4/54). The Self is also not
the doer (agent), because if there was doer-ship in the Self, then that
doer-ship would never go away. Therefore in the Gita, Bhagwaan has negated the
sense of doer-ship in the Self - "sharirasthopi kaunteya, na karoti na
lipyate." (Gita 13/31). The self, though dwelling in the body, neither acts
nor is tainted. In fact, he who experiences (becomes happy and sad), he is the
doer (agent).

From "Manav Maatre Kalyan ke liye" pg 125 and "For Salvation of Mankind" pg 130
by Swami Ramsukhdasji

------------------------------------------------------

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Saturday, February 27, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: Does the Supreme have any wish/desire?

 

Shree Hari Ram Ram

We are once again having trouble with mail formatting... We apologize. Gita
Talk Moderators,
Ram Ram
-------------------------------------------------------------

Jai Shri Hari
Dear Saadhaks,
Please reveal your thoughts about whether the supreme who is ever complete has
any wish/desire (although the word "desire" many not be suitable). It would be
good if those thoughts are supported by the holy scriptures.
My God bless us all!
Niteesh Dubey
--------------------------------------------------------------
NEW POSTING

God has created man only for love - "ekaaki ne ramate."  (Cannot delight being all alone).  Thererfore manifestation of love can only take place in human beings.  Of all the species in this world, only human beings are capable of saying "you are mine and I am yours" or "there is you and you alone" (Tu hi Tu).  The reason is that God has created this world for all beings, but he has created man for Himself.  God has bestowed man with the ability and the power to regard Him as his own and to discard the world.  It is only by the ability and power bestowed by God, that man can love God. 

From "For Salvation of Mankind" in English pg 195 by Swami Ramsukhdasji 

A devotee fulfills God's inner feelings and expressions of "Ekaaki
ne ramate". God has created the world for His devotees, and the devotees for
Himself. Therefore a devotees' existence was created only for pleasing God.
In reality, the enjoyer of all happiness is only God, not the embodied Soul
(jeev). Just like a child is for the mother, similarly the devotee is for God.
Besides God, a devotee has no independent existence (no existence of his own).
From "Prashnouttermanimala"  on Devotee by Swami Ramsukhdasji

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

Jai Shri Hari,

Dear All, I thank you for your responses.

It is absolutely true that BhagavaanJi who is everything and all powerful can do anything just by his sankalp/will and he has been doing from eternity but his only weakness is that he can not turn his child (i.e.embodied soul) towards himself unless the child accepts that move. The reason for this is that the Jeev (i.e. embodied soul) itself is holding the self created artificiality/affinity with the lower nature of the Supreme (GitaJi-7/5) and both of the natures (i.e. jeev/higher/PARAA and the lower/APARAA) are empowered by the Supreme and the Supreme, being equal (GitaJi- 5/19), can never do any injustice to any one. It is solely the jeev's responsibility to accept that move. Being SUHRID/friend (GitaJi-5/29), he can only wish and suggest (UDDHARET - GitaJi 6/5) the jeev for that move. Had he ever be capable of turning a jeev for that move without jeev's acceptance, there would not have been the need of this world, Scriptures, Saints, Dharmas etc..All these are available for us just because of his eternel wish of benefit/kalyaan for all his children. My dear brothers & sisters, nothing is meaningless in our father's kingdom. All his wills/sankalps are following his eternal wish of welfare of all. We should note that the will/sankalp to do something always follows a wish and not the other way.

Our Supreme father is also known as "SHIVA" which means "KALYAAN/welfare" (i.e. our father's nature/SWAROOP is for the welfare/KALYAAN of all). Shri ShankaraachaaryaJi says in ATMAASTAKAM that "I am CHIT/consciousness , ANAND/bliss and KALYAAN/welfare" ( CHIDAANANDROOPAM SHIVOHAM SHIVOHAM). In other words, living in the the eternal supreme wish of welfare of all is not different from living in the self which is consciousness and bliss.

Dear DeosaranJi,
Regarding your sentence "The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart. 0 Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities.- GITA 18:61)", the Supreme/God/Ishwar is NOT directing the wanderings of all living entities, the wandering is happening by the MAAYAA (please note the word "MAAYAYAA" in that shloka) which is empowered by the Supreme. The reason of this wandering is not the MAAYAA/prakriti/nature  but the jeev itself  which has been trying to enjoy the qualities/products of MAAYAA/prakriti/nature.

May the Supreme bless us all.
Niteesh Dubey

--------------------------------------------------

Dear NarinderJi, The question was about understanding the wish of the supreme preferably based upon the scriptures. Why scriptures? They are the authority/PRAMAANA (TASMAAT SHAASTRAM PRAMAANAM TE... GitaJi
16/34). In my understanding, this was the reason the Supreme
revealed the VEDA as an authority apart from creating Brahmins/
Rishhis/Guides/ Gurus (BHAMHANASYA TEN VEDAASH ... GitaJi 17/23)
at the beginning of the creation. The scriptures are easily
available teachers/Gurus for everyone. The true realization can
not go against the scriptures although the realization can not
be fully interpreted in the words.
Dear All, if you ask yourself why are you answering the questions in this forum. I do not know your answers but in my understanding, I
would say this is just because of that intrinsic supreme wish
which takes care of everyone.
May the Supreme bless us all!

 ...........................Niteesh Dubey

dear Niteesh Dubey jee,
thank you for your deep thoughts .............what you say is True.............. there is NO disagreement in narinder.................
the sharing is all Krishna's Play ....................we all have our lines to say ...............
 
why does narinder answer the questions raised in this forum? his totally honest answer is , " I donot know ! "
 
and the more questions and answers i become aware of reading or  answering ............... the deeper becomes narinder's awareness that he indeed does NOT know !
But ................there is also deep awareness of Stillness, of Silence, of the Ocean that keeps waving for its own Joy ....
 
and  ah, naga narayana jeeo.................why is it so ? how is it so..... and why must it be so ? how can narinder know ?
 
aum

the waves keep rising ....arise only to subside ...first, second and the last
are born to die ...and in the embrace of the Ocean lie
the ocean smiles ...................
smiles and smiles ...............and keeps smiling ...........................

Tat Twam Asi , you are the Ocean , narinder, says the Mind
Aham Brahamasmi, I know, says the heart
ah, how can the wave fathom the Ocean ! ? !
the Ocean smiles and smiles ...and knows
the Mind is a lie, but the heart never lies ....................
are you the Mind , narinder ,
or, the heart are you ?
both, or , neither ................
the Ocean are you ..................????
the Ocean is the wave
the wave is Not the Ocean
only the Self knows the self 
how can the other know ?
how can nari or narinder know !Rolling Eyes
the Ocean smiles ................................. Smile
AUM
narinder bhandari
-------------------------------------------------

Does the Supreme have any wish/desire?

Tasmai sa hovaacha prajaakaamo vai prajaapatih | Sa tapo tapyata | Sa tapastaptvaa | Sa mithunamutpaadayate | Rayim cha praanam chetyetou me bahudhaa prajaah karishyata iti ||

In Prashnopanishat, the teacher tells the aspirant students when asked how this creation started, "If there is creation, there should be a Creator and there should have been a desire to create in The Creator. If there was a desire, He should have contemplated on that desire generating the conjugation along with the conjugants in matter and energy. He should have let this matter-energy cluster to engage in the conjugation eternally to reproduce themselves in variant forms"  

Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh |

Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate || 

KrishNa says in Bhagavadgita, "There is no intention in the creation as The Creator has neither obligations to act nor desire to act in any specific manner. Everything in this creation are merely present as they are and they interact with each other as they do."

The great Achaarya Gowdapada exclaims, "playful people see a player there, spiteful people see a spiteful fellow there, silent people see silence there, noisy people see noise there … etc.". Similarly, desireful people see a desirer there. They cannot see anything other than desire to be the basis for everything that is perceived because the very perception is rooted in a desire! A RiNi believes Him to be a RiNi as well, while a Dhani thinks Him to be a Dhani as well. 

The desire always leaves the individual a RiNi, one with negative balance. The desire always point toward a void within reminding the lack of the object of the desire with the individual. The desire is painful for two reasons - (1) it is making the individual to believe an incompleteness within; and (2) it is making the individual to perceive a lack of freedom as the object of desire remains illusive as well as elusive binding the individual to the desire stronger and stronger. Sense of lack of completeness and freedom is the only pain any individual can ever feel irrespective of the apparent reasons, whatsoever. The desireful individual remains RiNi because of the RiNaatmaka Chintana (negative thinking) believing in the perceived incompleteness within and hence experiencing the lack of freedom. 

On the other hand, the desire cannot reach a Dhani, one who is overflowing with surplus in everything. The Omniscient who has everything in abundance can only give - (1) nothing more can be taken in being full; (2) there is no need to look for more being satisfied within; and (3) there is none who can offer something because the omniscience includes everything as such. The Completeness within is in full bloom and the constraints from around are non-existent to a Dhani, one who also thinks positively and realizes in excess within having no room for any wants. 

The essentials for existence of a desire are: (1) one should lack something within; (2) one should be different from the missing thing; and (3) one should be a subset of a dominion which contains both the desirer as well as the objects of the desire. The Omniscient is ALL-INCLUSIVE ... PoorNamadah poorNamidam poorNaatpoorNam udachyate, poorNasya poorNamaadaaya poorNamevaavashishyate ... incorporates everything manifested, unmanifested and anything else ... how can there be any addition or subtraction THERE? Therefore, how can The Omnipotent accommodate any desire in any form? If He desires, how can He be Omnipotent? 

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

--------------------------------------------------

Namaste

The concepts of "desire", "wishes", 'wants" are earthly or of this world,
applicable to mere mortals. Humans and animals desire and wish for things they
do not have, or are unable to achieve.

Bhagavan is All-Pervading, that is, absolute, all-comprehending,
all-comprehensive, all-covering, all-embracing, all-encompassing, all-filling,
all-including, and all-inclusive.

Bhagavan is Omniscient, that is, having complete or unlimited knowledge,
awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

Bhagavan is Omnipotent, that is having unlimited authority or infinite in power.

Everything comes from Bhagavan; He has everything; He can do anything; hence no
need for Him desiring or wishing for anything.

Here are a few scriptural passages to describe the nature of Bhagavan:

"That Brahman is in front and in back, in the north, south, east, and west, and
also overhead and below. In other words, that supreme Brahman effulgence spreads
throughout both the material and spiritual skies."

~~ MUNDAKA UPANISHAD 2.1.1

"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart. 0 Arjuna, and is directing
the wanderings of all living entities."

~~ GITA 18:61

"Bhagavan is He who possesses without limit the six types of opulence â€"
strength, fame, wealth, knowledge, beauty and renunciation."

~~ VISHNU PURANA

All this world is pervaded by me in My unmanifested form: all beings exist in
Me, but I do not dwell in them.

Nor do beings exist in Me (in reality), behold My Divine Yoga! Bringing forth
and supporting the beings, My Self does not dwell in them.

As the mighty wind, moving always everywhere, rests ever in the Akaasha, know
thou, that even so do all beings rest in Me. GITA 9:4-6


Ram Ram,
Deosaran Bisnath.

-------------------------------------------------

Yes, the Super-entity is indeed "complete". According to one analogy, the
"ultimate reality" is lonely, and creates a world that is "non existent" in
reality, out of its own self, but not separate from itself, and is called as
"Maya-- a reality unto itself, which exists and yet has no independent
existence". This world is supposed to be a "Leela"---a play, of "dancing"
figurines at the will of the Super being, like a day dream, which will come to
an end at "pralaya--kaal", just as dreams come to an end on waking up, and will
be swallowed by the Super being, only to be reassembled at some later time in a
"new" play.Modern analogy is that of a "Black hole" that swallows entire
galaxies, and then the nuclear power inside the black hole cannot contain itself
anymore, becomes "super heated" and leaks out into new galaxies, perhaps with
"new / different lives", only to be swallowed up again in another "billions" of
human years, into that black hole.That's the best explanation as I
understand.When the galaxies are "sucked up", will they come back in the same
form when the black hole "spews them out" in future ? Will there be different
life forms ? Will the structure of these new galaxies be different ? This is the
same question as to what will happen to us after death ? Or what will happen to
the bubble in a wave of ocean, after it ruptures ? Will it even be reborn into
another bubble? Will this new bubble be similar or different ? Will it remember
its past life / lives ? Will it attain Moksha ?Does it matter ?While this galaxy
lasts, if it regenerates while it "exists", what principles will it follow ? Our
Vedantic explanation so far, is past karmas ! Therefore do well unto yourself
and unto others. You will also attain satisfaction that you have done good
honestly, whatever you could and also tried to help others out of their miseries
!!

After that it is upto that Super being !!
d
Durgesh Mankikar,MD

----------------------------------------------------

A pure devotee is neither happy or distressed over material gain and loss, nor
is he anxious on getting a disciple or not getting them. If he loses someone or
something dear to him he does not lament. If he does not get what he desires he
is not distressed. This person is transcendental in the face of all auspicious,
inauspicious and sinful activities. He accepts all risks to satisfy the Supreme
Lord. Nothing impedes devotional service...Such a devotee is dear to Krsna.In
all this statement the fundamental answer is that the desire/wish is for the
devotee to be at one with the Divine.
Om Shanti-

catherine Anderson
Yes Paramatmatatva is beyond description

------------------------------------------------

Nari-Narinder samvaada continues to be par-excellent!! Thank you for the
revelations from the abyss of your presence, Narinderji!

Regards.

Naga Narayana.
----------------------------------------------------
Respected Sadhaka brindam:
In reply to the question raised by Niteeshji I would like to bring the following
references from Vedas and Bhagavadgita so that everyone can draw their own
conclusions as to whether the God as wishes and desires or not. I prefer to
call it as HIS Sankalpa or Will. 1. Nasadiya Suktam from RigVeda has a reference
to this Sankalpa.

Nasadiya Sukta from Rigveda deals with the subject of what was there before the
creation and how the creation started. It is fascinating to see many of the
ideas of scientific thinking of "Black Holes", "Big Bang Theory" and
"Uncertainty Principle" etc.are all found in this Sukta and is widely quoted by
many scientists in their discussions on cosmology.According to this Sukta, In
the beginning everything is unmanifest as in the expression "Tamaaseet tamasaa
Guudhamagre' meaning 'In the beginning darkness was engulphed in darkness' and
then it continues with the third stanza 'Kaamastadagre samavartatadhi Manaso
rethah prathamam' meaning ' In the beginning that Samkalpa which is the first
seed of the Mind sprouted'.
2. In the Hiranyagarbha Sukta also it is said ' Hiranyagarbhah Samvartatagre
bhutasya jaatah patireka aaseet' meaning ' The Supreme manifested as
Hiranyagarbha first and became the Lord of all creatures'
3. From the Supreme, as per Tittireya Upanishad, "Tadeikshata bahusyam
prajaayeya" meaning "let me be many" sprouted.
4. In Bhagadgita Ch.9 verse 10, the Lord said ' Mayyadhyaksena prakrithih
Suyate Sacharacharam' meaning 'Under my command Prikriti brings forth the
moving and unmoving'.

In conclusion I would like to point out that instead calling a wish/desire of
the Lord a better way saying may be by HIS Will. The creation is referred to as
the Dream of the Lord and we are all the characters in HIS DREAM and do not
really exist as per Yogavasishta. If our dreams are at the will of our mind,
the Creation is the Dream at the Will of the Supreme or Cosmic Mind.

I thank the organizers of this forum to express these thoughts. "Lokaah
Samashtaah Sukhino Bhavantu'

Balrama Murty Vempaty
------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Sadak,

Bagavan-Supreme- formless- Poornathuvam (All complete)- Not Object (Apprameyam)
Etc little said as God by Upanashids. But in Script of Saint Jayadevar, Garuda
Puran, Gnaneswari of Sant Gnaneswar, Srimath Bagavath Etc says, that when a pure
soul goes to Vaikunt, it crosses Virja River with Pradama Dharshan of Sri Maha
Vishnu, the reaches Vaikunt. Then Bagavan asks that Soul, "Where have you been
all these days." Means that Bagavan desired each and everyone of us to reach
HIM. Such a wish or desire is called in divine name "Sankalpa". Example: Sri
Krishna came here to establish Dharma. Sri Krishna in various roop (As said in
Geetha) appears to Bakthas, dwells with them, protects them and ultimately takes
to HIS abode. The word definition of desire is said in Geetha that it is a need
of mind, that need is never ending, and the desire is that which is like Ghee
pored on fire grows multiform but DOES not suppress. The desire that which is
for good of others WITHOUT expecting least out of it is NOT called desire. The
desire to have more and more is called GREED.

B.Sathyanarayan
-------------------------------------------------------

Yes the Supreme Reality wants us to know the purpose of Human Birth, assist Thee
in the maintenence of His Grand wondrous Design by following Laws of Nature
(Rta) and performing social work for the welfare of all Thy children i.e. entire
mankind. This divine wish of our Supreme Father is mentioned in great details in
Vedas and partially in Bhagavad Gita where lord tell us if He does not work even
for a shortwhile great harm will be done to the entire Creation.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok
--------------------------------------------------------

Jai Shri Hari,Dear All, I thank you all for your responses.

Dear Moderator, I am sorry that this response is little long. This question
came to my mind after reading the responses in the
discussion threads related to "desire"& "SARVABOOTHITERATAAH"
posted few days ago and the word "HITKAAMYAYAA" (i.e. wish/desire
for the benefit/HIT/welfare/KALYAANA) used by the Lord Shri KishNa
in GitaJi-10/1 to indicate that He, the Supreme, does have a wish/
kaamana/desire but that is not because of any incompleteness or lack or affinity
with something else as there is nothing beyond him (MATTAH PARATARM NAANYAT -
GitaJi 7/7) and he is everything (VAASUDEV
SARVAM ITI - GitaJi 7/19). His "wish" is not only for Arjun but for every beings
as he is well wisher for all the beings (SUHRIDAM
SARVABHOOTAANAM - GitaJi -5/29). Similarly, the following lines of GitaJi
indicate that the Supreme, who is ever complete/PURNA/blissful, does not feel
happy/satisfied with respect to his supreme wish when the human beings (who are
eligible for the supreme goal) leave their bodies without getting the real
benefit (i.e. attaining the real goal).APRAAPYA MAAM NIVARTANTE MRITYUSANSAAR
VARTMANI (9/3)
MAAM APRAAPAIVA KAUNTEYA TATO YAANTI ADHAMAAM GATIM
(16/20).In my understanding, this wish (i.e. wish for the welfare of all) is the
eternal supreme wish which has been empowering the Nature
(MAYAA ADYAKSHENA PRAKRITI..-GitaJi 9/10., MAM YONIR
MAHADBRAHM GitaJi-14/3) from eternity to become a place holder
for the Jeevs (embodied souls) so that they can attain their true swaroop/nature
by shedding off the foreign elements (i.e. elements belonging to the Nature)
they have gathered from time immemorial. Infact, this wish is not something that
the Supreme has to do/create/bring it the way normal human beings do. This is
intrinsic/integral/built-in part of his own nature/swaroop.So, if the Supreme
has this wish, then why not the beings (at least the
human beings) as Bhagaan Sri KirshNa says "human beings follow my
paths in every way" (MAM VARTAANUVARATANTE MANUSHYA
PAARTH SARVASHAH - GitaJi 3/23, 4/11). In otherwords, our true
nature/swaroop must also have the same in-built eternal wish (i.e. wish for the
benefit/welfare of all). We might not be feeling it or we might not be trying to
feel it or we might be restricting it just because of the
limitations/bondage/artificiality we have created due to our own ignorance The
word "CHIKIRSHHU" in GitaJi -3/25 does indicate that this supreme wish is
enabled in the realized souls too. TulsidasJi MahaRaaj also says that the
supreme and his true follower/devotee, without any reason, are always engaged
for the benefit of all ("HETU RAHIT JAG YUG UPAKAARII | TUM TUMHAAR SEVAK
ASURAARI" ). Swami RamSukhdashJi, at some place, mentioned about a divine
shakti/power called as "SARVA BHOOT HITAISHHINI" which is always engaged in
executing the supreme wish of helping all the beings. He says, this is the
shakti/power which helps the great people who are always engaged for the benefit
of many/all.The scriptures do suggest the saadhaks/aspirants to be engaged in
for
the benefit of all ( SARVA BHOOT HITE RATA - GitaJi 5/25, 12/5)
specially for the the aspirants following the path of the knowledge,
meditation etc. in which they start their spiritual journey by
understanding/focusing on the "self" dwelling in their bodies. There is no need
to emphasize this for the aspirants following the path of devotion and selfless
karmas as, by definition, they must be following their wishes of welfare of all
by serving the God/Viswaroop. In my understanding, this is not a
suggestion/advice but it is a reminder about the intrinsic nature of the true
self. The suggestions by the scriptures are always aligned with the true nature
of the beings.The same supreme wish is also reflected as "dhram-yukta
kaam/desire/wish in all beings" ( DHARMAAVIRUDDHO BHUTESHHU KAAMOSMI -
GitaJi 7/11)". Here the key is "dharma" which is the carrier of the same
supreme wish (i.e. "benefits/welfare of all"). The results of the execution of
that supreme wish by the individuals might appear limited due to the various
constraints (e.g. body, place, time, circumstances etc.) but living in that wish
is no different than living in the root of that wish. A very good example of
"dharma-yukta desire" can be seen in the life of King Dasharath when he
approaches the sage Vashishtha with a desire of having son. His desire was not
for himself to be called as a father but to give a noble heir for the
kingdom/subjects which was more dearer than his own life. As long as, the
wish/desire is aligned with the supreme wish, it will help us lead to the root
of the supreme wish. Whether we wish/
desire for the benefit of all or have the wish/desire to attain the root of this
wish (i.e. supreme/God ), it will lead us the same goal. We should note that
there is no difference between the Supreme and his wish. The suggestion to
aspirants of "having desire to attain the supreme" (MAAMIPCHHAPTUM -GitaJi
12/10) by the Supreme is nothing but the same supreme wish told from the
perspective of the aspirant. Closure the aspirant is with the
Supreme/SELF/TRUTH, better he understands the supreme wish and he could be
chosen to be the medium ( "NIMITTA
MAATRAM BHAV SAVYASAACHIN" - GitaJi 11/33) of executing that
supreme wish. Some time, the realized souls (e.g. KAARAK PURUSHHA)
descend to follow that supreme wish and some time the Supreme himself
descend to execute his supreme wish (YADAA YADAA HI DHARMASYA
...GitaJi-4/7).

Dear VineetJi, The supreme simply means "nothing is beyond that". He is called
by infinite names (RAM, KRISHNA, ISHWAR, BHAGAVAAN, PARAMAATMA, PURUSHHOTTAM,
GOD,...). You are correct that his wish can not be sensed by the mind, buddhi
of an unrealized soul but the
question did encourage to reveal the thoughts based upon the
scriptures which are revealed by the supreme self or self-
realized personalities. I did revisit the page 61 of Saadhan-
Sudha-Sindu where "Chup Saadhan" is described. My question was
not about the saadhan for an individual towards his/her
realization but it was about understanding the message/wish
from the Supreme that might include the goals of every beings.Dear

GauravJi, What you mentioned is the general definition of the desire in beings
created out of ignorance/attachment. That desire must
be removed towards realizing the supreme wish/desire. In my
limited understanding, understanding the wish of the master
should be well known by the servant/lover so that he can serve
/love his master better. The mercy of God is not without a
reason. The reason is his intrinsic wish of taking care of all. Dear

PratapJi, His supreme wish is always supported by his Leela (divine play/
celebration) which work without any effort. His Leela is always
blissful but meaningful though the meaning may not be understood
easily.

Dear NarinderJi, The question was about understanding the wish of the supreme
preferably based upon the scriptures. Why scriptures? They are the
authority/PRAMAANA (TASMAAT SHAASTRAM PRAMAANAM TE... GitaJi
16/34). In my understanding, this was the reason the Supreme
revealed the VEDA as an authority apart from creating Brahmins/
Rishhis/Guides/Gurus (BHAMHANASYA TEN VEDAASH ... GitaJi 17/23)
at the beginning of the creation. The scriptures are easily
available teachers/Gurus for everyone. The true realization can
not go against the scriptures although the realization can not
be fully interpreted in the words.
Dear All, if you ask yourself why are you answering the questions in this forum.
I do not know your answers but in my understanding, I
would say this is just because of that intrinsic supreme wish
which takes care of everyone.
May the Supreme bless us all!

Niteesh Dubey

=======================================================

The Supreme person desires only one thing that HIS child comes
back to HIS home...
Komal.Chhabria

----------------------------------------------------------------
Shree Paramatmane Namah
If by the english word "The Supreme" if you mean "Paramatmatattva"
(the Essential Element, Divinity, Truth) , then please share whether
you have understood from Swamiji's writing -
"experientially That Divinity, That Truth is as such already present - IS"
(Saadhan, Sudha, Sindhu pg 61) . Because Paramatma is beyond
description and not the subject of mind/intellect.
So be it,
Vineet Sarvottam
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om. Shree Hari.
There is one Upanishad mantra that God became many from one for a loving sport .
I don't know what it actually means.What I understand is that my perception of
reality is based on inert matter and body. The true reality is completely
independent of matter and body. Therefore, the truth is beyond our perception
because we can perceive what is beyond matter right now.These questions are
sometimes useless. You are asking about somethingwhich is beyond matter and you
want it to be explained in terms of matter.Desires generally are product of
affinity of self with the matter. As the Self and the Supreme are beyond matter,
they are beyond desires.Our of His causeless mercy, the Supreme appears in front
of us in avatars like Ram, Krishna etc so that we can sing His glories and
realize the Truth.

Regards,

Gaurav Mittal

----------------------------------------------------------------

The Supreme who is complete by definition will have no desire or wish. Desire or
wish arises from incomopleteness. If there is completeness, there is no scope
for a wish or desire to arise for seeking completeness. The Supreme has every
thing in Him and never feels inadequate. Without any inadequacy, the Supreme has
no need to wish or desire. The Supreme who is complete has everything: He
contains everything in the Creation and is in existence in each and everything
in the Creation. All wishes and desires of everything/ everyone are contained in
Him and He exists in all wishes and desires possible in all creatures. So the
Supreme does not need any desire or wish of his own. That His Creation functions
the way it has been doing and will continue fully satisfies him. With nothing
remaining to be satisfied, the Supreme has no scope for any wish or desire of
His own. Any thing / any one even a little less than Supreme and less than
Complete can only have a wish or desire.To put it differently, all that happens
in this creation is nothing but his wish and desire getting fulfilled.

Basudeb Sen
----------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,Hare Krishna.

This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka.The wish of the Supreme for us
is to advance spiritually and attain Him in the end. Lord Krishna clearly
describes in Bhagavad Gita as to what and whom He likes the best. "Yo na hrsyati
na dvesti,Na socati na kankshati,Subhasubha parityagi,Bhaktiman yah sa me
priyah. "(Gitaji 12,17)Which means,'One who does not rejoice or grieve, does not
lament or desire and who renounces both auspicious and inauspicious activities,
such a devotee is very dear to Me. 'A devotee does everything and anything, in
the name of the Lord, does not get attached to the results. Lord Krishna's
desire for us is to follow the teachings of Bhagavad Gita. Devotional service in
the form of chanting the Holy Names is clearly the way in this Kali Yuga. Thank
You. Hare Krishna.

Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear sir,
If we all belong to him,then our sankalpas also belong to him.He is the central
reserve of all the sankalpas of jeevas put together.He will allow the sankalpa
to become manifest basing on the quality of it.Hiranya grbha is the true
proposer not we humans

Badri Narayana Miriyala

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Ones, Namaste!

Supreme is the Completeness, Wholeness, Purnatva, and as such lacks nothing.In
IT, not desire, but spontaneity seems to arise: Then, Intelligence
manifests!Big Bang happens!Love blossoms!Bliss as Peace reins!Joy flows!Beauty
emanates!Creativity overflows!Empty canvasses get painted!Poetry
out-pours!Scriptures speak its glory!Acts of kindness happens!All of these
through Intelligence of ONE Being behind all beings, holding them, manifesting
them while hiding in them! It seems that "doing" without desire is Creativity,
Celebration, Leela which only can happen when one feels/is complete, already
fulfilled even before doing, while doing with desire happens out of lack or
insufficiency to fulfill through "doing"!In the former possibility for
disappointment cannot exist, while the later is filled with disappointments!

Namaskar.....Pratap Bhatt


------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear
Sadhakas, Namaskar,To imagine, conceive and understand the purpose of the
Creation and Existence of this Cosmos...Vishwa...is beyond the limits of human
brain...This purpose is the desire or wish of the Creator...Gee Waman
----------------------------------------------------------

The Desire of Brahaman The Mystery of Ten Verses and One !Of Brahman , did
Brahman ask ... Lord, Teach me Brahman...To Brahman did Brahman say, ... " Son,
You are Brahman ! "In Joy did Brahman receive ... The Loving instruction of
Brahman..With folded hands did Brahman again submit ," Lord... Lovingly , you
bestow !But Brahman does not understand ! "To the humble Brahman did Brahman
then instruct.. " Your Humility , dear, is the doorway... My first Gift to
you...Through this doorway, then, will you, one day,Receive the knowledge ...
The Knowledge of Brahman ! "Eyes raised to Brahman, the ocean watering the eyes
with Love,Did Brahman , then ask again , " Gifts you bestow... there is no end
. But the Gift that Brahman wants .Is the gift of Your Self. Your own Self. The
Self " To the seeking Self, Lovingly did Brahman then bestow ... The Great Gift
of Vision. The Vision that is called Meditation.In this Meditation, did Brahman
sit for YugasFor Yugas , did Brahman take asana... Yugas... "Yugas was only a
word... Silence the Word's Being .And Lo ! Time was No More,What was,
was….Only This Moment Now ... Yugas passed ... and Brahman did smile on
Brahman...And Brahman , opened the eyes. Then,to Brahman, lovingly spoke "
Lord, May I call you Krishna ?...Krishna is the sound of Music that vibrates my
soul !Lord, may I sing the song that thrills my Being, Krishna .. Krishna ! Jai
jai Krishna " Krishna ! Krishna ! Krishna indeed am I, Brahman smiled In Joy
indeed, did Brahman smile ! And so ! To Brahman did Brahman Bow !" Krishna ..
You are Brahman indeed !! "In Ten verses, Did Krishna sing. Sing of the Glory of
Brahman! In Ten, did Brahman receive, Receive the Song of krishna's Being ! The
Ten were only One. The One-ness of Silence of Being. The Silence, which will
Keep singing ... In Ten verses,the glory of Being ! The teaching said Brahman to
Brahman... Easy it is.This teaching of Mine . Easy as easy can Be ! But to the
non willing, The teaching will ever remain A Mystery... The Mystery of Being !
It would be good if those thoughts are supported by the holy
scriptures..................Niteesh Dubey ah Beloved, which could be a greater
Scripture what could be more Holythan the heart in Silence of Love and, the
Being revelling in that Silence ........... ah !

AUM narinder bhandari

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