Sunday, January 31, 2010

[gita-talk] Re: Bhagavad Gita - Questions and Insights from Daily Verse - Chapter 3

 

CURRENT  POSTING

Shree Hari

Gita 3-42
 
Dear Shrikantji Ram Ram!
 
With respect to your comments on Verse 42 ...
 
Agree with you that majority of the commentators have interpreted "Sah" to mean "Aatma".
 
As you have mentioned, in Sadhak Sanjivani, Swami Ramsukhdasji has stated entirely different view on Verse 3-42. Whenever there is a wide difference in views of revered Swamiji and others, humbly suggest that all views should be clearly presented along with their merits for the benefit of Sadhkas.
 
Let us examine the case in point, Swamiji Maharaj is clearly stating in SS, "Sah" to mean 'desire'. It seems that this is Swamiji's unique contribution after contemplating deeply on  Verses 3/37-43. In these verses, the only theme being focussed is 'desire', Gitaji is calling the desire to be the enemy of man. In this context the origin of desire, where it resides and how to get to the root of it, is being explained in these verses. Let us briefly review these verses:
 
3/37: The desire, all devouring and most sinful
 
3/38-39: Wisdom is covered by desire
 
3/40-41: The senses, mind and intellect are said to be its (Desire) seat, conrol senses in the beginning, slay the sinful destroyer of wisdom and discrimination.
 
3/42-43: The master of intellect is ego, therefore, a person says 'My intellect'. Intellect is an instrument and 'ego' is the doer. Desire resides in the insenient portion of ego. But, it is because of the identification of the self with the insentient body etc., that desire seems to reside, in the pure self (the sentient). Desire resides in 'ego' 'I', because ego has the desire to enjoy pleasures and so becomes the enjoyer. But there is no desire in the self, which is the illuminator of the enjoyer.
 
Thus, knowing that desire is beyond intellect, subduing the self by one's self, destroy this, O mighty-armed Arjuna, the tough enemy in the form of desire, which is hard to conquer. 
 
Humble regards,
Madan Kaura
 
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Jai Shri Hari,

Dear JoshiJi, Pranam!

I love reading your commentaries about GitaJi. But, I have an objection about your following opinion which you mentioned in explaining the meaning of the word "saH" in the shloka 3/42.

 "For the sake of brevity, Lord Krishna might have skipped the in between two levels of
consciousness namely the `Ahamkaara' and the `Moola Prakruti' in this verse."

In my opinion, I do not  see the existence of any debate about the meanings of "saH" as all the three possible meanings 1) Kaam (by Swami RamsukhdasJi) 2) Ahankaara  3) Self are factually correct (i.e. all these are more subtler/pervasive/superior than "Buddhi") and can also fit in the current context to reflect the same message of destroying the "Kaam" which the real cause of the "Paap".

If we analyze deeply which may not be required, there could be very minor differences in the levels of closeness of these meanings to the context. With my limited understanding but paying all my respects in the lotus feet of all our great Aacharyas & Saints, I would manage with the meaning "Kaam" which suits most in the context  and would also not require to think something is missed/skipped by Lord Krishna.

Regarding the Vedic scriptures which are complete in their own contexts, there should not be an expectation of seeing the similar verses/shlokas mentioned in various places exactly the same as these depend upon the contexts. I have learnt from many Saints and Scholars that there is no any unnecessary word in the Vedic scriptures  and not even a word/letter/sound in Vedic scriptures which are divine can be rearranged/modified otherwise it would result in a great harm.
In the shloka 3/42 of GitaJi, if you put the shloka mentioned in Kathopanishad exactly the same, it would be unnecessary as there is no need of talking about "Mool Prakriti" in the current context. Apart from that I can not think of even in my dream that Lord Krishna who is Veda (GitaJi-9/17) , revealer of Veda (GitaJi -17/23), Vedvit (knower of Veda),  Vedvedya (known by Vedas) and VedantKrit (GitaJi-15/15) would  have skipped/missed any thing.

May God bless us all!
Niteesh Dubey

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  Gita 3-38
 
The error is that we want to arrive at through desire. Desire does not have a satisfactory end.
Desire gives the impression as if it will take us to a comfortable end.
When the error is seen, it vanishes.
Then desire remains only as operative element of life from moment to moment.
Life becomes action from moment to moment which does not seek fulfilment through result.
Suddenly one touches zero ground and tastes freedom in action,that is, liberation.
One understands that the System is operated through wonder.
There is nothing to feel satisfied, nothing to hold as satisfactory.
One becomes one with the unending stream of life.
Y V Chawla
 
The error in desire is as if it will take us to the end, as if it will satisfy us.
Desire is the operative element of the human mind and can not be satisfactorily ended.
Even these pages are the product of desire.
One seeks comfort of reaching through desire.
This comfort is the illusion.
Y V Chawla
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Gita 3-37
 
Every human being is mixture of 3 goonas Sat, Rajas and Tamas.
Threse 3 words of Sankhya Darshan need great understanding.
I send my translation of last verses of Ch 3
Karma are always preceded by some desires
Desires arising from Sat goona  base are noble and must be done.
Nameste From HKG (Hiralal Gandhi)
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What is the definition of a sin?

            "No body wishes to commit sins knowingly. Yet people commit many sins (make mistakes in life) as if they are dragged by an invisible force. Oh Krishna please tell me why such things happen?" (36).

            All religions advise not to commit sins, or ask for forgiveness for the sins. In the ending verses (37 to 43), Lord explains the root cause of all sins. Once you know how sins occur, you will remain alert and avoid them. This is the beauty of The Gita, compared to scriptures of other religions which give doctrines, commandments and taboos.

            "When desires and angers, mixed with selfish motives (Rajas) grip the mind then sins are committed. These inner tendencies (instincts, desires) are the greatest enemies of any individual. They burn you, destroy you. Recognize them and conquer them by self-discipline". (37).

            "The sex of an embryo is not visible under cover of placenta, fire is under the cover of smoke, and a clear image is not visible in a dirty mirror. In same way desires produce a veil over knowledge. Like an ever burning wild fire, all ego centric desires are the greatest enemies of all men of knowledge". (38 & 39).

            “Desires reside in sense organs, mind, and intellect, and cover them like a veil. Therefore control all sense organs at first, and slain great enemy -desire, which destroys scientific talents and knowledge”. (40, & 41)

            "The organs of knowledge (senses) and organs of actions are good, but mind is higher than the organs. Intellect is higher than mind. But the highest of all is 'THAT' (spirit, soul, the divine self)". (42).In many verses divine spirit or Brahaman (ATMA) is referred to as nameless ‘THAT or THIS’. (See Kathopanishad V-III-10.)

            " Oh man of mighty-arms, desire (Kama) is most difficult of all the enemies to conquer. Recognize it by use of own intellect and the supreme soul within you. Conquer and slain inner enemy- DESIRES. (wants, wish, expectation, hopes, passions etc.). (43).

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Gita 3-32
Dear JoshiJi,
   I think the following meaning does not seem correct.

Sarvadnyaan- VimooDhaan = deluded in all superficial knowledge except the knowledge of the Self


Thanks & Best Regards
Niteesh Dubey
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In response to the message # 3019, I would like to respond as follows;

Dear Mike,

Thank you for sharing your personal experience. It is an observed fact that only solicited advice is well appreciated and partly if not fully implemented by the seeker. Please refer BG 2/7. Even in Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, Lord Krishna maintained his stoic silence and did not volunteer any advice till Arjuna submitted in his willful and total surrender, "ShiShyaH Te Aham Shaadhi Maam Tvaam Prapannam" i.e. I am your disciple and please instruct me, who has taken refuge in you, O Lord!

Unless the seeker has attained the proper mental outlook and attitude towards his teacher, no knowledge can be imparted and no advice can be offered. Therefore, in BG 4/34, Lord Krishna encourages Arjuna to prostrate before the knowers of the Self with devotion and repose his trust and confidence in them by selfless service and in that process, he may expect all his doubts to be clarified by the wise ones.

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Dear Man Mohan Batra,

Thank you for your questions with reference to BG 3/27. Who assumes as Karta?  If it cannot be the Self, then who is termed as Ahamkaara VimudhaaH Aatma?

Please refer BG 13/21. In the production of causes and effects, Prakruti i.e. physical matter is said to be the origin or primal cause. However, in the experience of the pleasure and pain Purusha i.e. the Supreme Spirit or the Brahman (Energy) is said to be the origin or primal cause.

Please refer BG 18/18 and 18/19. Knowledge, known and knower are the threefold impulse to any action. As an illustration, please consider pot making activity. It requires potter as a subject. The potter must have the requisite knowledge and the relevant skill set to make a pot. He must have creativity to conceive the unique form and shape of the object i.e. the pot. Thus the three factors go hand in hand. The three constituents of an accomplished action are Karta (actor), KaraNa (instrument) and Karma (skillful but physical labour). The other two constituents that are not mentioned here; are the physical body i.e. Shareera and the Aatman i.e. Shareeri i.e. the Supreme Consciousness. Thus, Karta (actor) is the potter, KaraNa (instrument) is rotating platform to make a pot and Karma (action) is complete manufacturing task of pot making activity.

Please note that there are three types of freedoms granted to humans. They are freedom of thoughts, freedom of expression and freedom of action. Even the Supreme Lord does not interfere in these three freedoms. But the outcome of any action is not in the hands of the one who performs an action. For simplicity, Karta is every Sadhak but the Niyantaa i.e. the Governor is the Supreme Lord.

The role of the Self is very well explained in BG 13/23. The Supreme Purusha (Spirit / Energy) in the physical body of every living being is said to be the witness, permitter, supporter, enjoyer, the Great Lord! This is quite similar to the concept of dispassionate observer or onlooker in Albert Einstein's theory of Relativity.

A self deluded person is termed as Ahamkaara VimudhaaH Aatma.

Dear Avadhoot Maharaj,

Thank you for your observations. 'Lord Krishna as the personification of the Brahman' is indeed consistent with the Vibhuti Yoga in Chapter 10.

Jesus Christ had said that he was the son of the God. The prophet Muhammad had said, "La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rasool Allah i.e. there is no true God except the Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of the God."

Per my knowledge, Lord Krishna is the only Supreme Personality in the entire history of the mankind, who had proclaimed that he himself was the Supreme God, who has planned his own births in every Yuga. Please refer BG 4/9 and 10/20.

Please refer BG 10/37. It is indeed the beauty of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein the person, who sought knowledge, was Arjuna; the person, who imparted the Supreme Tattva Dnyaana, was Lord Krishna and the person, who documented the greatest celestial song, was Munee Veda Vyaasa. All the three were Vibhutees i.e. special human incarnations of the Supreme Brahman. Please refer BG 10/41. In the true spirit of the verse, there is no harm in accepting even Jesus Christ, the prophet Muhammad and Lord Krishna as Vibhutees in the larger perspective; which in turn will generate `Loka-Sangraham' the welfare of the people in this mortal world.

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Dear Sachit Arora,

Thank you for your query: What does Sankar or VarnSankar mean with respect to BG 3/22? With due honour and respect to you, please note that your question does not pertain to BG 3/22 as there is no mention of Sankar or VarnSankar in that verse. I think you are referring to BG 1/41 and 1/42. With such assumption let me explain that SankaraH means admixture or mixture of dissimilar ingredients and VarNa-SankaraH means admixture or intermingling of castes namely BrahmaNa, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra. In any battle, the winner takes it all and lots of children are born out of wedlock. That was objectionable to Arjuna.

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Dear Deosaran Bisnath,

Thank you for your observations. In our cultural ethos, once a person dies, all the ill-will towards that person is expected to be over. An eloquent example is that of Lord Rama, who instructed RavaNa's sole surviving brother to perform the last rites; after having killed the King RavaNa after an arduous battle. When he initially refused, Lord Rama himself volunteered to perform the last rites as there was no animosity left over in him for RavaNa. Observing the magnanimity of Lord Rama's heart, he immediately obliged and performed the last rites of RavaNa.

No doubt Alexander inflicted lot of damage to us. After his death, we should remember magnanimity of Alexander in not killing King Puru but honouring him by releasing him from captivity. Of course, I am making this statement on the basis of recorded history from the western perspective. Nevertheless, the ill-will towards Alexander is a matter of history as per our cultural ethos.

Dear Niteesh Dubey,

Thank you for your observations. Please note that the expected progression is from Vrutti (Sva-Bhaava) to Pra-Vrutti (inclination towards righteous action) to Ni-Vrutti (dispassion towards worldly pleasures). It is not correct to state that the liberated ones are not supposed to perform any action. Everyone is expected to perform action to the best of his / her knowledge and abilities. An action becomes inaction for the Sun as it relentlessly continues to offer heat and light to all, without any expectations in return.

Dear Suhas Gogate,

Thank you for your kind words. God bless you. Our cultural ethos is based on `Kritadnyataa'.  We are thankful to our parents for giving us our respective physical form and shape to fulfill our residual desires accumulated in many previous births. We are thankful to our teachers for imparting knowledge. We are thankful to our relatives and friends for making the life enjoyable. I would like to thank you and many Sadhaks for timely and accurate criticism, feedback and appreciation.

Thanks & Best Wishes for the festival of Lights,

Shrikant Joshi.

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Gita 3/29

Reverent all,

hereunder are my two bits 
I am a simple person and understand only few concepts of life .

1. First of all GOD stays one i.e. Singularity i.e. one source second the nature of Brhmaand is always expanding and collapsing.
2. This paradise earth was created as a university to learn till Death and be reborn to learn again to serve the source not with energy  but how beautiful Brhmaand can be so the source and nature "maya" are one, serving the purpose of the Gods creation of his own parallels , that is to say SHIVA & KALI, Bhavani i.e. shakti , maya itself & then krishnas ,budhhas, Jesus , prophets and so on who just messaged peace and love the only binding force of nature scientifically or yogically law of attraction AND repulsion as an offshoot and only an offshoot which again is hate and aversion and avoidable. 

NOW 2 small story too "am sorry for delinked writing since what comes to mind fingers type " 

"THE FOOL"

there was once a king  always first thing in the morning used to go out for a walk and anyone till he was back to the palace he met was gifted by him anything asked for . So this one day while on his way back in mild winters came across a man lying on his back on a charpoi and yelled with ego and pride to the man " ask what you want and ye shall have it " The man said with a namaskar " SAMNE 
SE HAT JAIYE AUR DHOOP AANE DIJIYE BUS ITNA HI " (move out of the way and let the sunlight through" and this was with pun intended irritation in him , for the fool the source was already there what else could he want more then the param anand the bliss of sunbathing in mild winter morning GOD was with him in him. 

 And as far i KNow Gita Ji doesnt aim FOR us to become gyani rather total AGYANI which is unlearning what has been learnt which THEN is total bliss & if the source did not want us to play with free will without disturbing any one elses Free will and others actions then i guess the source would not 
have branched out as the source would have become nonexistent and without MAya spreading around hence with this philosophy of few of us here  we expect less knowledge coming to us from GITA JI and your esteemed forum  and may we remain on our own paths separate as may seem will definitely lead to the ONE in the end . GITAJI can be interpreted in thousands of ways but can be unlearned in only one i.e. forget and LIVE LIFE.

ONE doha i wrote maybe uninteresting but shall yet share 

" gyani ko agyan dije badhe mun-gyan bhandar
agyani ko jo miley gyan to mun phansey chahun dhaar" 

mun-gyan bhandar= feelings of love and peace and contentment 
chahun dhar = four unsettling force of knowledge ocean   
  
DHOOP AANE DIJIYE 

Regards

DEVENDRA

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Gita 3/29

Although I come from a different culture I have to believe that we can not force others to feel the way that we do.We can inform and hope that it will help.In New York we hold rallies to inform.We can't make everyone a believer. Lynn
------------------------------------------------- Gita 3/29

-Shree Hari-

Dear Shrikant,

In your summery pasted below:
'Therefore, Lord Krishna advises that the wise should not sermonize and unsettle the minds of the ignorant, who are not yet ready to absorb the knowledge of the Self'.

What can a soul do, but give advice when asked, in truth and honesty.
But only when asked!
When one gets older, one finds the power in silent observation. Grandchildren will slowly come to recognize your wisdom, and will listen to the advice they seek, often they will laugh and scoff, but they may have taken it on board. And if by ignoring your good council, things go 'pear shaped', no gloating just advice on how to sort things out if he/she/they ask!

Om... Shanti...

Mike. (K)

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Gita 3/27

Respected sir
Reg comments on Gita 3-27, kindly explain as to Who assumes as Karta?  it cannot be  Self
then who is termed as ahamkara vimydhatma?
 
Man Mohan Batra

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Gita 3/22
 
In this discussion we find an interesting point. It was said  'Lord Krishna as
the personification of the Brahman'. This is very strange to me since Brahman is
explained as being nothing but the personal effulgence of the body of the Lord.
In the Gita 14.27 Shree Krishna says that the impersonal Brahman is subordinate
to Him. His person is supreme and the effulgence of Brahman is secondary. Yet,
this statement seems to point out that the Brahman is superior to the person of
Krishna which is not correct at all. If we think for a moment that the Lord's
body is material like ours then we at once become offenders or 'aparadhees'.
The Lord has His own abode and association in Goloka Dhaam, yet if we deny Him
his excellence and replace it with the impersonal manifestation of Brahman then
we deny ourselves access to that eternal place of bliss and knowledge.
We should know that even the demons who were killed by Lord Krishna attained the
Brahman, so what can be the glory of aiming for entering Brahman? Better to see
the Brahman as simply the light coming from the little toe-nail of the body of
the Supreme Lord Hari.
 
Avadhoot Maharaj
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Gita 3/22
 
What does Sankar or VarnSankar mean?
 
It is mentioned in Dwitiya Pad of Adhyay 3 - Shlok 22. Please explain.
 

Warm Regards,

SA (Sachit Arora)

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Gita 3/21

Namaste.

What a wonderful essay by Shrikant ji !  I am pained to object to any part of it but I do so with the honest objective not to disparage Shirkant ji but merely to comment on an issue that is important:

For Indians, "Alexander The Great" was not great. Alexander murdered hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of defenseless and innocent Indians.
The Indian soldiers who were returning from Masanga were most atrociously murdered by Alexander in the dead of night. These exploits do not prove Alexander's kindness and greatness, but only an ordinary egoistical man driven by the zeal of expanding his empire.
Alexander and his armies were badly defeated by Porus, ruler of a small border state of India. The Greek army panicked and were terrified when they saw hundreds of elephants charging towards them (they had never ever seen or encountered these gigantic creatures  before.) Alexander's butchery came to an end with this humiliating defeat and as fate and karma would have it, he finally succumbed to his injuries. The fact the Greek King Alexander lost to a small border state ruler of India has been difficult for the Western historians to accept naturally and has been conveniently ignored.

Same logic can be applied to Akbar the Great and many other 'greats.'


Ram Ram,
Deosaran Bisnath

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Gita 3/18

Dear JoshiJi,

Somehow, I feel that though the liberated souls do not have any relationship with the action but they also perform action, which is of course selfless, just to set the standards for the normal people. So, Arjun is not being told to perform action as he is not the liberated one.  A non liberated one can not pass even a single moment without performing the action (Gitaji 3/5). He is being told to do that because if the liberated ones, who are not required to perform any action, also perform the action then why not Arjun (or any non-liberated one). Only suggestion is that Arjun (or a non-liberated one) must perform the selfless action (Gitaji : 3/19). This seems clear from next few shlokas. For example, the shloka 21 says normal people follow the standards set by the great (liberated) souls. In shloka 22, BhagavaanJi says he is also engaged in action though nothing exists in the world which is left unattained for him. So, if GOD himself is engaged in action then why not the liberated souls will guide the normal people by setting the standards. The only difference between the action performed by a liberated one and a non-librated one is that the non-liberated has to try to perform the action without attachment whereas the action performed (i.e. happened) by a liberated one is selfless by itself.

With Best Regards
Niteesh Dubey
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Gita 3/17

Dear JoshijJi,

Thanks a lot for your detailed response. I see your points.
The word "manufactured product" is very generic. It does help to improve the
level of convenience in the life but most of the manufactured products,
produced today in the motive of personal interests, has been endangering the nature instead of helping the nature towards a healthy and happy life on our planet.

Best Regards
Niteesh Dubey

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Gita 3/16

Inspiring and deeply meaningful explanation of this verse by Shrikant Joshi
desrves gratitude from all right thinking people.
Jayantilal Shah

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Gita 3/17

Dear JoshijJi,

Thanks a lot for your detailed response. I see your points.
The word "manufactured product" is very generic. It does help to improve the
level of convenience in the life but most of the manufactured products,
produced today in the motive of personal interests, has been endangering the nature instead of helping the nature towards a healthy and happy life on our planet.

Best Regards
Niteesh Dubey

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Gita 3/16

Shrikantji is doing a great service to all of us. There is no trace of "I" ness in his writings. On the contrary some of the words used by him made me to refer the dictionery or at least see the synonims.
He has also helped us to revise the physics and science which we studied earlier. Exmples of scientists are very appropriate.
Dear Shrikantji, please continue the way you are going.
Many thanks-(thanks is a small word here.)
Suhas Gogate
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Gita 3/12

In the whole of Bhagwad-Geeta, this is the only verse which uses a srong/harsh word that those who do not share whatever good things they have obtained with those in need of it, are Thieves. It could have used a less strong word- lost the right path- not fulfilling Grihastha Dharma or any such non-aggressive word sufficient to carry the message. But Bhagwad-Geeta feels very strongly about this lapse and hence this word. In Jain Budhhist traditions,this duty is called 'Samvibhag'and along with the Hindu Traditions with which they have a strong linkage,Charity is the cornerstone of the life of House-Holder in those traditions also. No where it is more emphasised than Geeta.My salutations to its preachings. Jayantilal Shah 
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Dear Members of the Bhgavat Geeta Group
 
                         let me say I got insight into the essence and significance of Bhagavata Geeta in detail.,There are many organisations which have done their best to propagate Bhgavata Geeta not only in India but also in all parts of the world.
 
1 I learnt Bhgavta Geeta since my childhood since my studies in a small school of Umreth where my teacher started his class by asking me to recite some slokas from Chapters of Gita.
 
2 When I joined Theosophical Society I noticed that there are classes on this subject.
 
3 I knew the activity of Swami Sivananda who also wrote books on this subject.
 
4 Hare Rama Hare Krishna organization also published Gita version in many lenguages.
 
5 Swami Chinmayananda propagated Gita in many languages and his one hundred and eight Bhagavata Geeta talks in English is worth watching and has explained each and every word in details.Please watch his videos and books written by him Inquire into Chimaya Mission s centers around the world.
 
6 Bhgavta Geeta written by Sri Adi Shankerachrya is every exhaustive and properly interpreted.
 
7 Bhagvata Geeta propagation is done by the President of American Gita Society in California.
 
8 International Gita Society is also propagating Gita philosophy
 
9  Now temples in America have started teaching Gita to children Other temple ought to start such classess.
 
10  Gita Press is doing a great service by printing Gita in various languages.and this group is also started under their guidancxe.
 
11 Sastu Sahitaya and Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Bombay are also publishing such literatures at lower cost to the people.
 
12 Swami Jyotiramayananda ,a disciple of Swami Sivananda has also published G ita at a reasonable cost and a Journal with an Anual subscription
 
Please forward to others.
 
Truly yours
 
Shankerprasad S Bhatt

PRIOR POSTING

Gita 3/6

Hari Om

The message of GT Moderators is indeed Divine ! Sadhak Sanjeevani is a miraculous Treatise. One can't describe the peace which generates by just reading the Treatise.

The way in which even the Index has been made by Swamiji, the Links of previous verse , the Preface just everything about the Treatise has its own flavour; own fragrance and own Divinity. Just by reading - Dear Sadhaks you can get glipmpse of bliss. Your bhavas change. Your intellect stablises. Your mind/intellect/ego get first a shock, and them they become calm, serene and fully satisfied. As soon as doubt/query comes in mind, next para solves that coolly. Not a single contradiction can ever be found in Swamiji's purports from All Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Ramcharitmanas, Smritis and other Scriptures - Swamiji has extensively quoted them in His purports. It is only read to be believed. The english translation of Sadhak Sanjeevani book is also published by Gita Press only. But let me tell you that the translation by our Divine G T Moderators is VERY VERY NEAR to those sentiments which of course especially flow in Swamiji's divine Devnagree (Hindi) . I know English dictionary does not have correct representive words of many Hindi words.

Wishing you Divine Reading of Sadhak Sanjeevani, Dear Sadhaks !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Gita 3/6

Namaste

An excellent explanation and commentary of what I consider to be an
extremely significant verse in Bhagavad Gita, one that points out the subtle
but unambiguous distinction between Sanyasa and Tyaga. between
Renunciation and Non-attachment, which is essentially that it is the
content of action that counts, not with the pattern of action. Gita emphasizes
the motive of action, not so much the manner of activity. Renunciation
deals with the outer pattern of behavior while Non-attachment is an inner,
a condition of mind. 

Bhagavan is alerting us to the occurrences of superficial displays of piousness
and devotion while harboring thoughts and desires of a worldly nature. Swami Chinmayananda had some strong words in his commentary on this verse:
"  To give physically a show of morality and ethics, while mentally living a
shameless life of low motives and foul sentiments, is the occupation of a
man who is not a seeker of spiritual fulfillment, but, as is termed here, a
self-deluded hypocrite! Certainly we all know that, even if we can
physically discipline ourselves, it is not easy for an average man to control
the sensuous tendencies at his mental level."

Man's spiritual nature is to be judged from the condition of his mind and
not from his demonstrable code of behavior. In fact, a really spiritual
man is unostentatious; there can never be a display or demonstration
in a life that is truly spiritual.  Any display, whether of material possessions
or of spiritual accomplishments is essentially vulgar. Surely there is
nothing more crude and vulgar than the display of one's so-called virtue.
Sadly, we observe so many who are well-intentioned but engage in
ostentatious displays and self-righteous proclamations of perceived
religious and spiritual superiority of themselves, their families and those
in the congregation.

The more one displays one's spiritual conduct, the less spiritual content
is there in the inner make-up of such an individual. Bhagavad Gita calls
such a man a hypocrite, a man of false conduct. Swami Prakashananda
once described it as religious arrogance.

We are humans, we err, we may not be doing this intentionally but it
becomes habitual and if not checked becomes a permanent part our
character and lifestyle. Bhagavan is telling us in this Gita 3-6 that in
spirituality, it is the condition of mind that matters, not the colour of
one's robe.

Ram Ram
Deosaran Bisnath

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ON GITA IN HINDI

narayan narayan

gita mein jitna bhav bhara hein, utna budhi mein nahi aata
jitna budhi mein aata hein , utna man mein nahi aata
jitna man mein aata hein, utna kahne mein nahi aata
jitna kahne mein aata hein, utna likhne mein nahi aata

Gita vlikshan hein kyoki esme upnishid, our brahm-sutra dono
ka tatpriya hein.  gita upnishdo ka saar hein sabhi darsan
gita ke antergat aate hein per gita kisi darshan ke antergat
nahi aati.
gita mein kisi mat ka agrah nahi hein  prtiyut keval jeev ke
kalyan ka agrah. matbhed gita mein nahi hein pratiyut tika-karo
mein hein.

sanshar raag ke karan dekhta hein, raag ke karan hi dushri satta
dekhti hein. raag nahi ho tho parmatma ke shiva kuch bhi nahi hein
sab kuch parmatma hi hein yeh "khule netro ka dhayan hein. jairamji ki.

[RAMCHANDRA ]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gita 3/3

Well said Shrikant ji,
except you cannot have Jnyana or Karma Yoga without Nishthaa in God.
 
So, there is no separation there between Jnyaana yoga, Karma yoga and Bhakti Yoga.
 
As per Swami Dayananda, Yoga means---Prema yaa, Bhakti-yaa ( with extreme devotion and love ) is such conviction ( Nishthaa) developed, otherwise you cannot accomplish either Jnyaana or Karma Yoga. There will only be Jnyaana ( knowledge)  of nature, or Action unto others, or self, without the love for the Divine, if Bhakti is not part of it. That is an inclusive and not an exclusive statement, and not separable as Bhakti Yoga ( a much later concept---developed by some individual, and not from Bhagwat Geeta ! ) .
 
Durgesh Mankikar,MD

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[gita-talk] Re: Please Elaborate on GUNAATEET (Beyond the Gunas)

 

In Gitaji God says, regarding mode of purity (sattva), activity / passion
(rajas) and inertia (tamas) that on having an inclination for these three modes
of nature, there is no desire to be released from rebirth and on being released
from rebirth there is no desire to be inclined to the three gunas (modes of
nature). Kindly elaborate?
Raja Gurdasani

------------------------------------------------
IN HINDI
IN GITAJI GOD SAYS STVA, RAJ AUR TAM IN TEENO GUNO KE PRAVRAT HONE PAR NIVTRATI
KI AKANSHA NAHI AUR NIVRAT HONE PAR PRAVRATI KI AKANSHA NAHI,
KINDLY ELABORATE?
RAJA GURDASANI

===========================================

NEW POSTING

----------------------------------------------------------

I don't understand which sloka is being referred here.

Gunateet is a person who is not affected or beyond by gunas.

When you see yourself as atma beyond matter, then you won't be affected by inert matter or gunas.

Swamiji says it again and again -
Accept that you are not this inert world but you are part of Paramatma. Your body and this world belongs to Bhagavan. - Bhakti yog
Accept that you are not this inert world but you are part of Paramatma. Your body and this world belongs to Samsara. - Karma yog
Accept that you are not this inert world but you are part of Paramatma. Your body and this world belongs to Prakriti. - Jnana yog

That is gunateet person.
Gaurav Mittal
----------------------------------------------------------

Tamas, Rajas, Sattwa and beyond (TriguNaateeta)

Polarities in our perception are generated due to the conflicts of interest we harbor within. The conflicts of interest arise from the bias we nurture within. The bias is rooted in the desire cluster we covet at the core of our existence.

As soon as a biased perception is conceived in the cognition, its nemesis takes birth automatically at the very same instant. We name the two polarities as Rajas and Tamas - one inciting us into actions and the other inhibiting us from our activities. As a result, the two spur the individual into oscillatory existence between the two corresponding poles - the opposite pulling the individual away from wherever he/she tries to settle with. As a result, the individual remains unsettled, rather restless.

An ignorant being could rip oneself apart from the mutually opposed forces generated in the restless conflict of existence. The nature has developed a third quality, which we call Sattwa, within that tries to balance between the opposed forces to safegaurd the sytematic integrity.

We can imagine an individual as a magnet where the postivie and negative poles (Rajas and Tamas) are bonded by the stem (Sattwa).

The magnet - our existential identity - becomes bigger and bigger as we get farther and farther from what we ARE ... as we collect newer and newer identities borrowing from our interaction with the world. As the magnet becomes bigger, the polarity becomes stronger and so is the need to balance the same. When the magnet grows beyond one's fathom, one looses to correlate the poles and hence looses the capacity to generate a balancing force between the two opposing poles and starts gravitating toward one of the poles helplessly. Though "a pole" is chosen as an existential identity, the other pole remains dormant in one's subconscious presence with pretty much equal potency.

To complicate our existence further, we generate multiple magnets in multiple directions as the dimensions of our existence grow in our urge to propogate our identity in the existential world. As a result, we start drifting amongst the poles we have consciously gravitated in our apparent memory; and retain the set of their opposites intact at our inherent memory.

As the poles are seggragated into relatively distinct compartments of our cognition - conscious and subconscious - we further loose our ability to relate the opposite poles. The only way that remains to discharge the opposites - one hovering in the conscious mind and the other hidden in the subconscious mind - into a balance, is to depend on the nature to mingle the two apparently distinct domains ... either in sleep ... or in death ...

The magnet - our existential identity - becomes smaller and smaller as we get closer and closer to what we ARE. As the magnet becomes smaller, the polarity becomes weaker and so is the need to balance the same. In the limit of being just ourselves, the polarities as well as the balancing bond between the same become completely irrelevant and non-existent. This state is often referred to as the "TriguNaateeta Tattva" or "PoorNa Tattva" in an all-inclusive sense or "NirguNa Tattva" or "Shoonya Tattva" in an all-exclusive sense by our seers and their revelations.

Respects

Naga Narayana

----------------------------------------------------------


Dear Sadaks,
One who clearly understood and sticks to the understood matter of 24 Thatuvas is Gunaateeth.

It is 24 Tattuvas. They are :-
1) Panch Pranas 5, Pancha Gosas 5, Karmendriyam 5, budthi, Manas, Chitta, sensory 5, athuman. These are in Geetha.

How these are influenced, are told by Swamy Datatreya sitting under a tree as Avadoot to King Edthu Maharaj. 24 Gurus

2) Prithivi- Earth. 2)Vaayu- Breeze. 3) Akaash- Sky. 4) Aapaha- water. 5)Agni- Fir. 6)Chandra- Moon. 7) Surya –Sun. 8)Tapotaha- Dove. 9)Ajagaraha- Mountain Snake. 10)Sagaram- Sea. 11) Salabam- Flying ant. 12)Madhukrith- Bee. 13)Gajaha- Elephant. 14) Madhuhan- Hunter who collects honey. 15) Grahavena- Deer. 16) Meenaha- Fish. 17) Pingala- Prostitute. 18)Kuraram- A type of Bird. 19) Kuntha Pakchi- A type of Bird. 20)Arthaha- Child. 21)Kumar- Teen age girl. 22)Sarakrith- Diyanam (Meditation). 23)Sarpaha- Snake. 24) Uornanaabhi- Spider.

How the first 24 correlates and shows one as 24 Gurus, can be posted with clear explanations and example, it is voluminous. These are off my mind. there may be mistakes, if so please excuse me. B.Sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------

Contd ...

How to attain TriguNaateeta?

Spirituality is to acknowledge the facts as they are … we have created the magnets of identities with multi-polar contradictions knowingly (to start with) and unknowingly (as we expand and multiply our dominions of identities) … we are solely responsible for every seggregation of the polarities into conscious and subconscious domains of our existence ... and finally, since we have authored every polarity as such, we can potentially mitigate the same ... and, also, we being the sole authors of all these junk, nothing else can access these polarities ...

Therefore, the way to get out of the clutches of the desires and fears is to appreciate their very root cause that is the source for their perpetual nourishment - the bias apparent in one's wakeful state as well as its conjugate lost in the oblivion of one's sleepful state, the Vaasanaas - the behaviors and the conjugate instincts. Their very existence also indicates their whereabouts, whatabouts as well as whyabouts if we truthfully seek to know.

The electable (Shreya) is verily different from the delectable (Preya) in life. The former educates us how not to develop polar attitude in our day-to-day activities. The later instigates us to collect more garbage in terms of contradictory behaviors and attitudes. Therefore, a wise seeker would obviously choose the electable while an ignorant man running behind his craves would fall a prey to the delectable for procreating the identities further.

Anyacchreyo'nyadutaiva preyah te ubhe naanaarthe purusham sineetah |
Tayosshreya aadadaanasya sadhu bhavati heeyate'rthaadya u preyo vrineete ||

Every occasion with this world as well as with ourselves always proposes the two choices to us - electable and delectable. A truthful seeker would differentiate the two choices with utter clarity while a mundane living would probably fail to distinguish them.

Shreyashcha preyashcha manushyametat tou sampareetya vivinakti dheerah |

The ignorants who crave to acquire and safegaurd their identities would go behind the delectable choice in life that strengthens and promotes the bias and polarities within. We have been vested with the Saattwic power (we call it wisdom, Viveka) which always acts in the crisis to alleviate us from the miserable positions we subject ourselves into. If we have the authority over the polarities we nurture, we should be able to excercize our authority over them to identify and mitigate the polarities by applying the Saattwic power vested in us proactively. That is the electable choice that reduces the polarities and hence our affinity to and dependence on the three GuNas ... to attain the state that transcends all the GuNas altogether.

Shreyohi dheero'bhipreyaso vriNeete preyo mando yogakshemaadvriNeete ||

One who is awake sleepfully as well as sleeping wakefully verily transcends both the sleep (Tamas) as well as the wakefulness (Rajas) and hence transcends the balancing virtue of Sattva as well. The Shreyas is in appreciating the bliss of sleep while awake and the awareness of wakeful state while sleeping simultaneously.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

----------------------------------------------------------

My friends,Atma and Prakriti are two creations of the Lord/Eesvara/Parama Atma. Of these,Prakriti is inferior and apart from the matter Rayi and Prana (see 1.4 ofPrasnopanishat). Atma is gifeted with chetas and Prakriti is Jada. Originalstate of Atma is to be ever in service of Parama Atma and contemplateperennially on IT. Prakriti made of material has three lieutenants called Gunas.They are satva, Rajas and tamas. These Gunas press on any object that is incontact with them. Due to the presence of Prakriti and its proximity to Atma,the three gunas try to impress on Atma also. An Atma which is aware of its truenature and job refuses to be influenced by the triad. But mostly Atmas allowthemselves to be impressed a litttle to begin with. The contact creates subtleimpressions on the knowledge or chetana of Atma. These subtle impressions arecalled Vaasana.These Vaasanas, force the Atma to enter a suitable body. Once in a Prakriti madeBody, the Atma faces a more dangerous situation because Indriyas of the bod areenemy (Prakrit) agents and they feed Mana with false input and pushes Atma intothe ignorance that it is body and the three Gunas are its friends and lovers.These three Gunas are difficult to be rid off. Once Atma gains knowledge ofitself and realizes that it is subordinating to an inferior entity, it tries tobe independent of the three Gunas. The success is not easy. When the Atma winsthe battle against the 3 gunas, it is Gunaateeta. Once, this is achieved, Atmadissociates from the mundane body and hence is not bothered by its desires,aspirations, successes and failures. It looks at materially precious Gold andordinary mud alike.A triguna ateeta Atma has only one desire that is to be back in its originalstate of perennial contemplation on Parama Atma.Krishnam Vande Jagad Gurumkrishna samudrala ---------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.

This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,

"Sattvam rajas tama iti,
Gunah prakrti sambhavah
Nibadhnanti maha baho,
Dehe dehinam avyayam" (Gitaji 14,5)

Which means,
'Material nature consists of mode of goodness(sattvika),passion(rajo),ignorance(tamasa). When the living entity comes in contact with nature, he gets conditioned by these three modes.'
Of these three modes, sattva is the preferred one but even this binds us.

Lord Krishna described the qualities of the one who transcended the modes of nature
'Who does not hate attachment, delusion,illumination when they are present or wish for them when they are absent, who is unperturbed by the reactions of material qualities, remains neutral and transcendental, who regards happiness and sorrow alike,who looks upon a lump of earth, a stone, and a piece of gold equally,who is equal in desirable and undesirable situations,who is steady, deals equally in praise and blame, honor and dishonor,who treats friends and foes alike and who has renounced all the material activities, such a person is believed to have transcended the modes of nature. '
(Gitaji 14, 22 to 25)

"Gunatitah sa ucyate. " (Gitaji 14,25)

means who have transcended the modes of nature, ( sattva, rajo, and tamo gunas).

The way to transcend the modes of nature is through devotional service and total surrender to the Lord Krishna.
Thank You,
Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ones, Namaste!
Rajaji, as usual, initiates good dialogues among us, the seekers/lovers of truth, in his short but sweet style!
I would share the way I understand it. It is not going to be much different than what we have been sharing lately in current topics.

It seems as if we have handed over the Chariot of our Life over to Nature - Prakriti - Gunas to drive us around! We take ourselves to be body-mind, part of prakriti endowed with three Gunas. Naturally, then, when new body-mind organisms appear in it, we call it Births/rebirths and when they perish away back into Nature, we call it Deaths! Thus these Gunas, intrinsic to nature, keep recycling themselves which we call the cycle of Birth and Death.
As we all know, pleasures and pains are inherent in such organisms. This is because in ignorance of not knowing their true nature being SELF, the IS-NESS that is Consciousness, they think and act as if whatever happens to body, happens to them. Thus, desires for pleasures keep them in the cycle of rebirths!
I don't see that "being released from rebirth there is no desire to be inclined to Gunas".
What I see is that when Realization happens, Self just gives up all identifications/inclinations with individual body-mind, and takes it true stand as Witnessing Presence, or In-dweller, Sakshi Chaitanyam, and obtains equanimity in all situations, meaning rising above the Gunas! At some point, Witnessing Presence and "witnessed" world merge, by realization that witnessed prakriti, too, is of the same substance as Presence, Consciousness Universal! Thus, there is nothing to witness, because Vasudevah Sarvam!
It is important to know that even after Realization, Prakriti Gunas, as before, keep on recycling through new bodies, but Self knows body-mind is not its true nature! So, whatever happens to body-mind organism happens to prakriti and not to Him/Her, because there is no Him/Her anymore!
Equanimity reins there or rather here and now! Prakriti keeps on unfolding as it does!!!
Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------------

There are three basic types of Gunas: sattva, rajas and tamas. Eac human being is imparted these three Gunas: person to person the strength or weakness or quality of these Gunas vary. It is because of the variation in the Guna quality combination, different people act differently under different circumstances. All these Gunas instill desire and ego of varying types in each human being. Atma however does not have these Gunas and is unaffected by them. When the ego, desires and perception of differences among entities in the Universe disappear, Atma is realized. When Atma is realized, the life of the guna-driven sensual desire-oriented senses, mind and intellect ends. This situation is of no birth and no death. Thus with Gunas gone, there is no birth and no death as one in always in the Atma-realized state. So long as Gunas continue to exert influence on body, mind and intellect, the pangs of worldy life has to be endured.

Basudeb Sen

"> ----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

How can one elaborate on Gunaateet? In fact Swamiji says so in Gita 14:25. Such a person has risen about the three gunas (modes of nature), rather transcended, therefore there cannot be any marks, qualities, descriptions, or any such thing. Marks, qualities, elaboration vest in modes of nature (prakriti). How can one who has marks, qualities etc.... transcend these gunas (qualities)?

Even though when Arjuna inquired of the qualities of such a person, and Lord responded, in fact these are only qualities related to the inner faculites and body, giving only a hint of such a person. But this cannot be described / elaborated. This mind / intellect cannot even fully describe the modes which are their cause. How can they describe nature (prakriti) the cause of the modes ? Then how is it possible for these to describe / elaborate on one who has transcended the modes ?

Meera Das, Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------

Please elaborate which sloka of Gita says this statement.

Gaurav Mittal

--------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Without Desire or Ambition, One is a Vegetable, Not Human

 

But without desire or ambition you are a vegetable, not human.
So this analysis (see below - Posting of Daily Sadhaka message) is wrong. It is
not what Krishna taught.

Anil Bhanot

-----------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

Moreover, there is no denying the fact that there is difference between what is desire (kama) as per Gita and what are necessities/goals of human birth. A human gets born with desire to become SATCHIDANAND- to be all knowing, all doing, all getting- to be fearless and thus immortal, to be desireless thus ever happy , to be Peaceful. The Jeeva is ever running to fulfill those desires only. But these desires are not Kamas ( as defined in Gitaji and by Swamiji and by all Scriptures). These are 'Abhilashas' , the subhecchas (auspicious desires ) , the needs, goals and the very purpose of human life.

Desire (Kama) is always with reference to Jagat/inert/ Prakruti . And no one becomes vegetable if one throws away such stupidity ( desires necessarily are stupidities) and becomes immortal, fearless, all knowing, and "absolutely" happy. Ever happy. Ananda. Relativityless ONLY ANANDA.

Pranaams to all Sadhaks.
Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina

Narottam
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

They were Swamijis who appeared like they were vegatables, but they were highly protected by Bhagavan and they were away from the clutches of earthly effects. 1) Sadashiva Brasmendral who was buried under sand for days, but was very healthy and excellent. Adi Sankara was sitting in one position for days. Viswanatha Bhram who lived in 18th century end to 19th century was without food or water for months. These mahathumas were desire-less looking like mad man. There are many more. B.Sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Shri Anil Bhanotji ! 

How do you know that vegetable is desireless ? 

Vineet Sarvottam

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Desire & Ambition

It is disingenous to suggest that having no desire or ambition is a good thing when Swami ji ( and his supporters) are also saying that everyone should aim for achieving peace, ananda, freedom from anxiety. Is it not in itself a desire, an ambition? Why then is desire wrong? The answer is not in Geeta but in theory of Evolution. Everyone has an in built desire to be better that their parents or older siblings. That desire brings a positive chane and everyone evolves. This is the answer to the question. 
Dinesh Varma
Kant
UK

-------------------------------------

Dear Seekers of Truth, Namaste!
First of all, the message of Swamiji is so profound that unless one reads between the lines with openness and try to understand, one cannot appreciate it! It is very much in  line with Lord Krishna's teaching in his own experience!
Secondly, my deep appreciation of the posting of Chawlaji. It is very profound, of which the statement  "'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one to realize the self evident point of immortality. is worth noting!

Desire is inherent in limitations of any kind such as objects. One such object is body-mind that one considers oneself to be!
With that limitation, to fulfill oneself, one chases the objects of the world also limited when considered independently existing apart from SELF one IS! In absence of such self imposed, unquestioned, limitations upon oneself,  one  loses all identities. This is explained by Swamiji in the same message by giving various example of false identifications!
In such a scenario, there remains only desire(s) without there being a "one who desires!"
This is the Scheme of the Universe desiring through its many instruments, so a specific instrument is not vegetable, but simply a normal human being carrying out impersonal will of his Master! This is, as though, it is!
Namaskar................Pratap Bhatt

---------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

It is a fallacy and nothing except a fallacy to suggest that without desire one is vegetable and not even human. As if by desire we get human birth; we get caste, creed, colour as we desire; we get parents as we desire; we get worldly things/situations/circumstances as we desire; we die as we desire..... And if desire is not there you become vegetable.. You can't do any karma !! What kind of desire is there when blood circulates in the body, or breathing takes place? What kind of desire is there preceding a sickness? No body desires to die...but do you not die? Is death cessation of desire? If yes, why do you let it? If no, how you become vegetable then ? Had without desires human body would have turned from live to vegetable..how in Gita Lord Krishna would have preached us to become desireless ? Was He even not that educated ?

Karma...has no essential corelation with desire. You can do karma without having any desires also ! You do karma of visiting an ailing relative - did you desire that he falls sick ?

Hence to look at a suggestion of Saints and Sages, Gita etc with such angle and approach is simply deciding not to do a recommended deed for one's own welfare. So far so good. But to tell others too and thereby discourage them... is bit too much. Tell us what Krishna taught !

No Divine Sadhaks ! Nothings happens to you except cessation of sorrows when you relinquish desires. No vegetableness takes place. You become better ...you become 'swastha' !!

Pranaams to all Sadhaks.
Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina

Narottam
---------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

Krishna states in Gita that the yogi attains the Supreme state and there is nothing to gain. Actually, there is no need to do any action or not do any action. Still, yogi acts for benefit of others.
After reaching this Supreme state, there is no more ambition or desire. Currently, we are looking for things outside. The outside world keeps on changing and therefore, our desires change. But Krishna asks us to look inwards. When we attain inner happiness and bliss, then there is nothing to gain from outside world.

In our current state, we need carrot of achieve something to drive us to do work. Sometimes, this carrot is money, wealth or some object. Sometimes, it is more spiritual like freedom from anxiety, peace etc. 
Since we are driven so much by desires, it is difficult to comprehend state without desire or ambition.

Gita tells us that it is possible to attain state where you will be happy and satisfied from within and you don't need anything more and therefore, there is no desire/ ambition.
Unfortunately only very few can attain it. I have been trying to practice it for years and still, I am driven by desires etc.

Good news is that I have found Swamiji books explaining these topics in a simple and rational way like nitya anitya vivek (discrimination between what is permanent and what is perishable).
Please select some book and read it carefully. I think you will get answers. Please use this opportunity to go more deeper within by reading Swamiji's books.
Hopefully, one day we all be able to reach such state.

Regards,
Gaurav Mittal
-------------------------------------------------------------
Desires are common to all beings. The desires work independently through the
Gunas in the body cells, DNA, RNA, etc. The Animals have desires. Vegetables
also have desires to grow operating through the working of their cells when live
and deire to get rotten sometime or when cut out from plants for human and
animal food intake. Human beings are therefore some from of Animals and
Vegetables.. What distinguishes a human from animal or vegetble is that the
human has also cells inside that can work against desire. The human being often
does not act against one kind of desire like to enjoy sex or food or comfort ad
allow the desire to know the Craor , the Creation and the creative proces. Those
wh have such strong desires to know may become scientists and when they give up
all sensual desires but the only desire to know the Creator, they become
superhuman beings. nd, when such superhuman beings realize the god, they do ot
have any more desire. They do everything without beng conne
cted to desire. They become one with the Creator and God. Vegetables do not
become one with the God, nor do animals.
Try being vegetable a human would not become an attractive vegetable. By  giving
up desires and ambitions,  a human being will become more attractive to other
human beings and will enjoy greater peace and many other things (that other
human beings desire and may or may not get fulfilled)  without desiring them.
  Basudeb Sen

--------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Shree Hari. Ram Ram.

I would like to add another point.

In spiritual journey, we make gradual advancements. Sometimes, this may take many births.
Right now, I see myself as body and whatever I do, I cannot deny the fact that I give importance to outside world. So, it is very difficult to attain the state without desires.
I need to be honest with myself and act at my level. If I try to imitate the advanced state, then I will suffer and act foolishly and in the end, I won't attain any spiritual advancement.

It is important to go gradually. One needs to look inwards and look at the world. Look at the reality. See what is permanent in this world. Look at what is changing. Among this change, self stays. 
Go more deeper and see what self wants. Does it want to die or be eternal? Does it want fleeting happiness or permanent happiness? And so on. In this way, understand your own self and understand the world.
Choose a path which suits you (karma, jnana or bhakti yog). Understand Parmatma and see that you are part of Him. Use Swamiji's books and knowledge as a guide to help you.
In this way, you will understand more. 

I agree with you that without above understanding, a person without desire / ambition is vegetable. May be you are seeing desires as bad and you want to disagree with that fact!
Swamiji is not saying that desire's are bad.

Swamiji is saying that in the Supreme state, you are established in your eternal self and experience sat (eternity), chid (knowledge) and anand (bliss). In that state, there is no desire as one does not attain anything from perishable inert matter due to being established in eternal self. Understand that in that state there is no desire. 

Try to gradually seek above state without attributing anything as good or bad.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Gaurav Mittal

--------------------------------------------------------------

It is ok to have desires......but whose desires, which desires, what quality of desires?
Understanding the following could give some clarity:
 
1. It is a grand play (Leela).......and everything is just happening......it is good to just remain at your happy natural state and witness everything happening.......
 
2. We all desire to be happy....all the time....feel contended...satisfied...fulfilled.....then we must choose the desires accordingly..
 
3. A desire is like a prayer and all prayers get attended to....get fulfilled if we have the patience and faith... but we need to understand which desires bring us happiness, which don't......what brings us lasting happiness....highest form of happiness...
 
4. A desire could be just personal, or it can be impersonal, or it could be the highest to be divine...moksha....
to attain Moksha....actually....even desire to attain moksha has to go.....it is state of Maun...complete silence..
Higher the desire, better are the results.... Higher desires means the lower desires will be automatically fulfilled...or will become meaningless....
 
5. Who am I? .....the begger or the desire fulfiller....?   Whose play is it?  Whose desire? 
 
It is a wonderful world, a wonderful creation...........desires or no desires....happiness is the key.......
Start with happiness......keep it all the time......live in bless.......create.....express...expand.....
Sushil Jain
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Dear Sadaks,

What Sri Krishna taught is this. DO NOT DESIRE for neighbor's wife, others money, accumulate wealth, to enjoy more with sensory organs, destroy your neighbor peace, to make others listen to what you want, etc etc. DESIRE at the present- seek for today food, care to parents/wife/children & neighbor, desire to have a transport that fits your budget, (Not looks and for other to envy or pride), desire to be hale and healthy, then eat what Geetha says (In Geetha it is said any food kept more than 4 hours frigged or not is bad), desire to earn by hard work, but not by easy money by bribe, cheating etc. Sri Anil Bhanot desire that sounds positive in this posting is NOT wrong, but desire negative posted is coming under GREED, which resembles DESIRE. At one stage of certain age, after having gone through all the rightful pleasure of life span up to 60 years, having grandchildren, then it is necessary to stop desires and seek solitude, which many Grahastas/Kings done in the past. Otherwise one will desire to stay here without death, which IS not possible. But one who dropped desire after Grahasasramam, enters into varnasaramam gets elevated. Example: So many were taken with body to heavens in 16th century
B.Sathyanarayan.  
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Dear friend,
                  Namaskaram.Desire(kama), krodha(anger)and lobha are the gates of hell and they cause damage to sadhaka so they are to be given up.Of these three gates desire is the big gate and the other two are small gates.An unfulfilled desire causes anger and the anger not in our controle causes damage.If the desire is ful filled then comes lobha.This lobha causes envy by others on what you possess.So in either case desire causes destruction.
                                               So a sadhaka should always think about needs not desires.Why should you compare yourself with a tree? There are Billions of people on the planet living happily thinking about needs not desires.
                                 Happiness lies in contentment not possession
Badri Narayana Miriyala

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Kindly point out which particular
sentence / message is wrong and is not what Krishna taught. When you disagree,
it will be helpful to be more specific, so it clarify and make it easy for the
respondents.

Please also read extensive discussion in 2009 on this topic -

Without Desires Nothing will be Attained
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3183

Sincerely, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

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Desire is the operative element of the human mind from moment to moment.
Desire can not lead to fulfilment.
Desire is sense of lack. Sense of lack can not be fulfilled, what ever you may
hold or amass.

When one is aware, lack to fulfilment is system generated movement. Not that
there is lack and you are to fulfill.

There arises lack and there arises fulfilment. One sees the automation of the
scheme of the Universe.

'You and your death can not meet at any point', seeing this fact takes one to
realise the self evident point of immortality.

Y V Chawla
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HERE ARE SOME OTHER RESPONSES FROM A SIMILAR TOPIC IN 2008 and BEYOND-

Dear Sadhakas, Namste!
All answers given on this are very revealing and full
of wisdom. We need to contemplate on all such answers
until they resonate in us, become us!
I would build upon them as follows:
As Krishna says, four types of desires are to be
pursued, Artha for livelihood to survive in the
sansara, by means available within
Dharma-righteousness, fulfilling Kama the natural
desires again guided by Dharma, and finally all such
desires directed to Moksha, liberation. So they are
all Impersonal desires for seeking Truth, not personal
ego driven desires which originate from our lack or
Apurnata, the result of indentification with body,
mind, intellect, religion, nationality etc etc.
Only the personal desires need to be killed; killed
in the sense they have to be understood as coming from
Ego, so cannot be in line with Dharma, or Moksha! They
get dropped by such deep understanding, not by doing
of a doer!
Namaskar!........Pratap lovingly

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dear all,

desire even if fulfilled only fuels more desire....

friendly regards
s.seshadri


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Dear Friends

An important message is contained in verse 21 of 16th Chapter
as under:-
Desires ( lust, passion), anger, and greed are the three main gates
to the hell because they destroy the soul and as such should be
given up.
Desires, anger and greed creates hell in this life and whenever
anyone of the above is active in our life we feel suffering of
hell. Whenever anyone of the above takes possession of us, we are
not in a position to think clearly.
Understanding of the presence of kama, krodh and lobh in our life
and the supportive structure built for their nourishment will enable
us to start process of giving up the same.
Desires –basic question to be asked is `what do we want and why do
we want'. One has to observe and find out what desires creates hell
and what desires create heaven.
Regards,
A K Jain


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Dear Co-devotee, You yourself have provided the
> answer by saying that desires are of 4 types, the
> last being for Moksha. So the desire to have no
> desires or kill all desires will fall under that
> category and hence should not cause any concern.
> G.Vaidyanathan


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Loving Divine,
> Pranam.
> All desires - good or bad, to do or not to do, have
> to go eventually. The desire is a desire and it is
> binding, however, one can not attain such state
> immediately. Just like to remove a thorn one has to
> use another thorn and when the thorn is removed, we
> throw away both the thorns. Just like to climb up
> we use staircases but once we reach top, we forget
> all about staircases. Just like to cross a river,
> we use a boat but once reached the other side, we do
> not carry the boat with us. Similarly, in the
> beginning stages of spiritual practices, we try to
> kill our so called bad or harming desires with the
> favorable desires that help us progress but once we
> attain the state where it becomes part of our nature
> we no longer need to make any efforts. To do or not
> to do type desires drops off, actions are all
> natural done by our higher self without any
> expectations. There are no efforts involved from
> us. Please contemplate on BG 18:66 - sarvadharmaan
> parityajya...
> Hope this helps...
> humble regards,
> always at Thy Lotus Feet
Manjula Patel
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Shree Raman Maharshi, has given a solution to this dilema. He has asked us to
find the source from where does the thought arise, which in turn leads us to the
self - the real I, and in so doing the thought vanishes and its seeds are
destroyed, once and for all.

Regards

from,

Hitesh Modi

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--

Desires are a need of satisfaction. None other can judge whether is a desire
right or wrong. But satisfaction is like a journey in infinite space, when you
reach there, you find a next destination. It is therefore necessary to have
TatVA Gyan (knowledge of the essense) so that satisfaction is reached without a
need of desires. The work or Karma will be then directed towards TatVa Gyana
rather than in a direction to gain satisfaction by fulfilling desires.

Buddha, Einstein, Kabir, Gandhi, Tulsi Das, Mother Teresa are master pieces of
life used in understanding of the TatVa Gyana. Karma or work starts only after
this state of mind; and any other work by us for seeking livelihood or security
or fame are just called Vyavasaya by Sri Krishna in the Bhagwat Gita.

Regards

K G
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In your recent Sadhak message on DESIRES it was shared that
Desires of four types - - Artha (Wealth); Dharma (Righteousness), "Kaama"
(Passion) and Moksha (Salvation).... and about Gita says "Desires are
insatiable" and He asks Arjuna to kill this enemy i.e. Desire (Gita 3: 37-43).
My question is - Isn't a thought not to have desires or to kill desires it self
also a desire? So how do you explain this desire? Please clarify. Thank you.
sukanya chhabra


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|| Shree Hari ||
Ram Ram

28th January 2010, Thursday, Magh Shukla Trayodashi, Vikram Samvat 2066

If there is no desire what-so-ever within, then on attainment of worldly things
there would not be any pleasure, and on not acquiring these or losing these
there would not be any cause for pain and sorrow. It is only due to desires that
one experiences both pleasure (happiness) and pain (unhappiness). These are
pairs of opposites, which lead to bondage in this world. In reality, both
pleasure and pain are one and the same. Pleasure is as such another name for
pain, because the reason for pleasure and pain are - "ye hi sansparshjaa bhogaa
dukhayonay eva te." (Gita 5/22). "All pleasures born of contact with worldly
objects, are the cause of unhappiness." If a person has no desire whatsoever,
then he rises above both pain and pleasure and attains bliss (anand). Just as
the Sun, has neither day nor night in it, rather it is only constant
illumination (light all the time), similarly in Bliss, there is neither
pleasure, nor pain, rather it is bliss at all times. On experiencing this bliss
(anand) just once, there is no feeling of deficiency ever with regards to the
bliss, because that bliss is axiomatic, eternal and immutable (without any
modifications).

If it were possible to fulfill all desires, then we would strive to fulfill the
desire to live, and if it were possible to save oneself from death, then we
would endeavor to be saved from (to escape) death. But it is everyone's
experience that all desires can never be fulfilled, and every being that is
born, cannot be saved from death, then what is the gain in having a desire to
live or fearing death? On having desire to live, birth and death cycle will
continue, and the desire to live will also subsist ! Therefore to become
immortal while living, it is essential to renounce desires.

I am not the body, because this body is changing every moment, but I (Swayam,
Self) is constant there. If we were not constant there, then who would have the
knowledge of this changing body? Knowledge of the changing is only possible by
one who is not changing. This body is not mine, because I have no control over
it, and I cannot keep it according to my wishes, nor can I make changes in it as
I please, nor can I keep it with me forever. In this manner, when we do not
accept the body as "I" or "mine" then the desire to keep it alive will also not
remain.

When there is no desire to keep it alive, then before departing from this body,
one will realize immortality which is self-evident. "The unreal has no existence
and the real never ceases to be" - "Naasato Vidhyate Bhaavo, Naabhaavo vidhyate
satah" (Gita 2/16).

Truth is truth and untruth is untruth. Therefore there is no fear of the truth
or the untruth. If we are afraid of death, then too the body shall die, and
without fear also it shall die. Only the mortal dies. So what is the new loss?
Therefore it is useless to be afraid of death. From "All is God" in English pg
67 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

Ram Ram

For ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net
For full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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All past 3190+ messages are accessible and searchable at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/

23,600+ sadhakas

A list of all topics discussed in 2009 along with their links are at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/3189
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