Wednesday, September 30, 2009

[gita-talk] Re: Is being Influenced by Preferences a Deviation from Karma Yoga? Please Guide

 

Shree Hari   Ram Ram 

We are clearing the pending queue, therefore the extra postings today.  Ram Ram 

-------------------------------------------------

Hi all,
I've been reading and following gita for the past couple of years, the peace and
clarity i achieved is simply amazing.

Unfortunately a simple question is rankling my brain ever since i graduated from
college.

My area of focus is networking software. But of late i've been receiving job
offers in web development, linux admin positions..etc, which is not my area of
specialization. Though I have done those jobs in the past, but don't want to do
that anymore.

Its not about the money or anything else. Its just that i dont have the passion
to that kind of jobs anymore.

A true karmayogi is not attached to anything. Ever since i started followed gita
the first thing i gave up is desire and ego.

Am i deviating from the path of karma yoga by selectively choosing the jobs.
Should i do the jobs i receive as lord's will or should i go ahead and choose
the jobs where i have done a lot of research.

Please guide...thanks...
Krishna

--------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

You are Krishna and you do what you are destined to do. Since you have already
travelled far along the path of desire-free, attachment-free and ego-free life,
you will, if you are so destined, soon seee that you will lose attachment to
both of the following:
(a) the desire to get a particular job and the dislike for another kind of work
- you will develop equanimity and will not prefer one to the other.
(b) the worry whether you are doing the correct thing or not about taking up one
type of job or another.

The way you may ultimately get over the above to attachments is that you will
either stick to your current job and stop trying for or responding to new
offers, or take up any of the new job that comes your way or wait for another
new offer that attracts you more than the offers that you have till now. And,
what ever you choose to do, you will not decide on the assumption that you are
assured of a future career you desire because you have stopped desiing any
particular future career.

Meanwhile, just think that what you are currently doing in terms of analysing
the various offers ad their applications as a good deed academically and your
learnings that God has destined for you. You can also continue to remain
undecided about what you should do in terms of taking new offers or not till one
day you may suddenly decide one way or the other as per your destiny.
If you believe that your future is designed by God, you would know that what you
are doing - thinking and worrying is also the design of God. And, the various
responses you are getting from the Yahoo Gita-Sadhak Group are also a part of
the design of God to lead you to your next step in your career.  God is always
with you. Along with being desire-less, attachment-less and ego-less, you may
soon become worry-less and fear-less.
Hari Om. Ram Ram,.
Basudeb Sen

--------------------------------------------

Dear Krishna
You have to choose one path.....
So according to gitaji one has to choose best path.
You must decide what is best for U and also the way you can serve a lot many.
You said its not about money..rite but earning money from righteous way is not bad. moreover with more money you should put it in the service of deprived people and make it fit for karmayog.
In Yog vashisht it is said........
AN ICHHIT PRAPT KO YATHA YOGYA GRAHAN KIJIYE....
SHRIRAMJI,LORD KRISHNAJI JANAKJI ALSO RULED AND LIVED AS KINGS
BUT THAT TOO FOR SARVABHOOTHITERATAH.
HOPE THIS HELPS
THANX
RAJA
------------------------------------------------
tHANX THANX THANX A LOT TO ALL EXPRESSIONS
I really feel gratified.
I just put what is really happening today at large........
Not Shukdevji.....
Kindly tell me what %age of population have attained the status of Shukdevji.
Whereas swamijis aim is to deliver msg of gitaji at large......... and so is of Gitapress and all sadhaks...
sarvabhoothiteratah.......
Now my experience says that by thanking god for all situations a natural equanimity is obtained.........
and thats the aim of gitaji
SAMATVAM YOG UCHAYTE
tHANX FOR ALL
RAJA Gurdasani
 
-------------------------------------------------
I think you should choose your job... then only you can be honest towards it and give your 100%. Bhakti is giving 100%. Be devotee of your job the way you are of god. Job is Karma.
 
A true karmagogi decides first..what is the right karma, then does it. In ur case, right karma is whr ur passion is. Just do that with full honesty..for the welfare of the world..not just u... do not hurt any one in the process..let the fruits of ur efforts be distributed around and u will emerge as a true yogi.

Enjoy Life!

Arun Chitlangia
-----------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadak,
What comes to you- an opportunity or termination of your job is PRASAD from Bagavan. Always keep in mind , "You are NOT Kartha (Doer) of anything" and happiness and peace remains in you. Another way looking at: how many things happened due to your effort? If it happened, still because of conducive situation Bagavan provided. If it did not happen,  1) you are not entitled because of your karma. 2) Bagavan did not want you to venture in it as it might result in disaster.
Lotus pond looks very pleasing. But when one enters to pluck it, may loose his life. Marriage is very pleasant for the bride, bridegroom, their parents, relatives ETc celebrated grandly. Result- short lived happiness of the bodies and long living sufferings for bride or the bridegroom in many cases. Even taking well matched couple, the sufferings are there, as if one gets home late agony, if one falls sick agony, if some one abuses agony, children not caring good habits agony, sister in law, brother in laws and all laws frame their own laws is agony. But we all live in these, because it is Bagavan Prasad. Taking it like that, everything gives joy. You are not decision maker. Leave it to Bagavan. Let what may come- take it. Let what may go- leave it.
B.Sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram 

Preferences are nothing but likes and dislikes.  Swamiji and Gitaji both says that preferences (likes and dislikes) are traps.  Just like the monkey traps his hands in a pot of nuts, we trap ourselves with the likes and dislikes (preferences)

Swamiji says - Our activities should not be influenced by preferences (likes and dislikes), rather they must be in accordance with the scriptures.  When we have preferences (likes-dislikes i.e. duality) we are generally considering the ever-changing world as permanent.     
 
The outcome of actions undertaken under the influence of preferences is not very good because we develop attachment to those actions that we like,  thus we cannot find faults / flaws in them.  Whereas those actions we dislike, we do not see any good qualities in them.   Preferences are self created.   Actions must be undertaken with discrimination (vivek).  

It is only on being free of preferences (likes and dislikes), that we are able to see the true nature of a thing.
For a Karma Yogi, everything belongs to the world,  therefore what preferences?

In reality, everything is divine, but because of preferences (likes and dislikes), it appears as inert. If preferences (likes
and dislikes) were absent, then besides divinity there is nothing else existing.

How amazing is this point that Swamiji has brought out! 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As Swami Dayananda says--One has to live intelligently.
 
In 2009, you do not know where your next job is or prospects for that job come from.
 
If you are single, you can do whatever you desire and let the job fall in your lap, and
let the fate decide where you land and you can live without any expectation. If as you say,
you also do reserach in your field, I have a feeling that you are good at what you do, and
hopefully, the employer will recognize your worth.
 
If you are a married man, your obligations to your wife and child are as important as your
attempts at living through Karmayoga, as you describe. The job then becomes more important.
Do whatever needs to be done to maintain that job, but try not to live beyond your means, and
try to abide by principles that you have outlined for yourself, and offer all action as well as fruit
of action to God, and accept all result as Prasada . The example is of King Janaka, who lived
as a King should, not as a Sadhu, but was disassociated from the mundane needs of daily living !
He did not impose himself on others, nor was he subservient, did the appropriate things required of
a king, but lived dispassionately.
 
Durgesh Mankikar,MD
--------------------------------------------------------------

Jai Shri Hari

NarinderJi, I really love your approach and feel very happy reading your responses.

The shloka 4:19 ("YASYA SARVE SAMAARAMBHA KAAM SANKALP VARJITAAH") does allow a kermayogi to start any new task (e.g. change the job in your case) without any selfish desire and determination (i.e. sankalp) where as bhaktiyogis (being totally dependent upon the God) and gyaanyogis (thinking prakriti does everything) do not bring in their own desires in starting any new task ("SARVAARAMBHA PARITYAAGI" - 12:16 & 14:25).

With Love & Regards
Niteesh Dubey

---------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.

This is in response to a question from a sadhaka.

Work done for the welfare of others, without any attachment to the fruits of the action is Karma Yoga. Lord Krishna advises us in Bhagavad Gita to do the action.

Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,

" Karmanyevadhikaraste,
Ma phalesu kadacana,
Ma karma phala heturbhur,
Ma te sango stvakarmani. "  ( Gitaji, 2, 47)

Which means,

'You have a right to perform your prescribed duty, but not to the fruits of the action. Do not consider yourself the cause of the results of your action. Never be attached to , not doing your duty. '

Our mission is to act, for the welfare of mankind, not worrying about the results.

Thank You.

Hare Krishna.
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D

--------------------------------------------------------------

Geeta verse 7/3 defines Karma Yoga as follows:

Yaha tu Indriyani Manasa Niyamya Arabhate Arjuna,
Karmendriyaihi Karmayogam,Asaktaha Saha Vishishyate.

It simply and clearly means that you have to control your mind to refrain from
craving and aversion towards any type of work.
So if you have preference towards
particular work, while doing so you should not develope aversion towards other
type; and do the work you would like to do without attachment i.e.with full
devotion.
It will also be advisable to read a booklet by Swami Vivekanand on Karma-Yoga
available with Ram-krishna Mission; you will get clarity on your question and
guidance on whichever work you are doing.

With Good Wishes,  

 Jayantilal Shah

------------------------------------------------------------

shree hari:

ram ram.
a question in answer to your question is : could you choose and do any job that God wasn't willing for you to choose and do?
please read verses in Gita 4:20, Gita 5:8, Gita 13:31 and Gita 18:16 from Sadhak Sanjeevanee by Swami Ramsukhdasjee.
vineet,
sarvottam
--------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namste!
Kridhnaji is asking
"Am i deviating from the path of karma yoga by selectively choosing the jobs.

The answer is no, you are not deviating, provided, karmas are done without assuming/believing/feeling that "you" are the doer. Make/understand "you" as witness of the instrument - body, mind, intellect, choosing and doing the work guided by the Dharma. Know that as instrument you have no control of results except to learn from it and do the best next time. Karma-Yoga is Karma performed without being "doer-enjoyer".

Next question is:

Should i do the jobs I receive as lord's will or should I go ahead and choose the jobs where I have done a lot of research."

Again, if your karmas are guided by Dharma all the time, you will get guidance to choose those jobs which you should and love to do, and contribute positively along with making a living for family.
When you do so, it is really God that is doing it to accomplish what He wants to do it(greater good) while taking care of the instrument-you. BG 9:22, "yoga ksemam vahamyaham"..
Namaskar....Pratap Bhatt
--------------------------------------------------------------
In these hard times jobs are scarce. However you should do a job which gives you satisfaction. So you should take up the job offered while looking for the job of your choice. Glad to know that reading the Gita has given you peace and clarity.
Hari Shanker Deo
 
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aaaaa h !.........Krishna is sarvam...........Krishna is Existence, .....Krishna is the self seated in the hearts of all beings....
 
when the quest is Krishna,  questions arise in krishna's breast ......
 
and,to the questions, Krishna Himself , one day, some day, comes as the the answer ............
 
 
no doubt ....... Vasudevaye sarvam............. Krishna is all ..........
 
But
 
the eternal paradox of action and destiny confuses the self
 
this , then, is your present predicament, krishna .................ah !
 
and the answer to the question ..............how indeed does one resolve the conflict between Action and Destiny ?

           

 A practical approach to  adopt as 'understanding ' for a day to day Living would be :

At any point of time, consider all that you may have gone through in life as Destiny,or the Writ of Vasudeva; and whatever Existence presents as the situation in This Moment Now, is the situation for your action. Is for you to choose.

This would enable you to ' de-involve ' from your past ( regrets, guilt etc ) , and hence tackle the situation of the Moment more objectively. And no sooner is your action of the Moment over, the ' Now ' has also slipped into the Past ! And the past ? it was all ordained... it was destined....... was your Destiny !

And so..... your action... your doing was ..... is.... only an illusion....

Also, some day, this will enable you to move into the ultimate wisdom that All that happens is the Existence's doing...  Existence's writ.... and, you, as an integral part of the Existence only carry out Existence's writ. You are not other than Existence !  Thus are you freed from 'Doing', and move into 'not-doing '.... wherein all just happens, as it must .All doubts drop. Krishna smiles ......... so does krishna ...........!

As long as the Jiva is in duality, The paradox between Action and Destiny can never be resolved ! Only, when duality comes to an end, when the Self is realised as 'One-ness ; is the paradox resolved in the understanding that the two( action and destiny ) are also One, separated only by Time, which is only a Mental construct ; Time is a ‘myth’ and  has no reality really !

Till then, The above is a practical resolution of Action and Destiny .

the spiritual Path is the way........ the bhagvada geetha shows us the way............ walking the way is our own choice !

and, blessed are you, krishna.................you are walking the Path.......................

AUM

narinder bhandari

======================================

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[gita-talk] Re: Is the Mind alone the cause of man's bondage?

 

Shree Hari    Ram Ram

Clearing the pending queue.  You will receive a few extra postings next day or so.  Ram Ram

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Is the Mind alone the cause of man's bondage?

IN HINDI

KYA MAN HI MANUSHYA KE BANDHAN KA KARAN HEIN..?

[RAMCHANDRA]
-----------------------------------------
Ram Ram

NEW POSTING

Dear Ones, Namaste!
This is in response to Vinayak Dalviji's question:
Then who is the karta self or someone else. you mentioned "Even the
Swaroop (self) is not the doer" not clear
Need clarity why desire come. not mind not intelect not swarupa(Self) then ?
"

Just as shadow is cast when sunlight reflected by an object,  Atman shines body and organs of actions, senses, mind, intellect, and a shadow is cast called Ego, a sense of "I/me" due to identification with body, the instrument!  Consequently, "I/me" thinks it really exist independently. This is ignorance on the part of shadow, nevertheless.
Shadow(me) has two parts: Doer or Karta due to identification with organ of actions and Enjoyer or Bhokta due to identification with sense organs. The shadow is really non-existent as such, its reality is Atman-Existence with no identification! Until knowledge dawns, shadow continues living as if doer and enjoyer!

Desire: When any or some combination or all of sense organs(indiryas) contact its respective objects such as forms(seeing), sound(hearing), smell(smelling), tastes(rasas), touch(tectile sensations), a desire arises fueled by past memory of pleasures and pains stored in mind. As one appreciates, sense-organs are fully exposed to outside world and contacts are inevitable!
Desire was not resident anywhere in the instrument(mind-intellect-senses), it just arose as "I want or I don't want" this.

Namaskar..Pratap Bhatt

---------------------------------------------------------

Cause of Bondage is Avidya or Maya which means that when soul passes through
Sansaran and comes in proximity with Prakriti consisiting of five elements,
automatically soul gets entrapped with Maya. A false Ego comes into existence
and pure soul is driven into back seat.Under the effect of Ego,
Mana,Budhhi,Chitta and Ahankar comes into play.
These have to be dissolved with the help of Divine Knowledge or Brahmaa
Vidya.Mind which divides outside world into good and bad or duality has to be
dissolved by experiencing Truth as it is which is of non-dual
character.Bhagwad=Geeta Verse 14/2 deals with the method of coming out of
Duality and consequently dissolving the mind. Matra Sparshaha Tu Kaunteya,Sheet
Ushna Sukhadukhadaha,Agamapayinah Anityaha;tam titikshaswa,Bharat.
Budhhi is to be transformed into Vivek-Budhhi and onwards to Pragna by
destroying first Moha and then all sorts of Desires except to realise
one-self.Verse 52/2 mentions as under:
Yada te Moha Kalilam, Budhhihi Vyatitarishyati and thenverse 55  mentions :
Prajahati Yada Kaman,Sarvan Partha Manogatan,Atmani eve Atmana
Tushtah,Sthit-Pragnah Tad Uchyate.Practice with the help of these two
verses,converts egoistic intelligeence into Pragna.
Wandering Chitta has to be established in soul. See verse18/6 Yada Viniyatam
Chittam, Atmani eva Avatishte,Nihispruhah Sarvakamebhyah,Yukta Iti Uchyate
Tada.This can be achieved by Meditationa shown in this hapter and also
Para-Bhakti described in Shrimad Bhagvatam.
Ahamkara pari-passu and finally can be and should be destroyed totally by the
help of Verse14/5 which reads as: Na Kartutwam Naa Karmani Lokasya   Srujati
Prabhuhu,Na Karma Phal Sanyogam,Swabhavah tu Pravartate.
There is no doer except Nature as mentioned in Verse 27/3 :Prakrutehe
Kriyamanani,Gunaihi Karmani Sarvashah,Ahamkar Vimudha Atma, Karta Aham iti
Manyate,
So it is not the mind alone which binds; but a parliament of Mana,Budhhi,Chitta
and Ahamkara with its stream coming from Avidya binds the soul in repeated
cycles of Birth and Death
Jayantilal Shah
--------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

This Satsanga is really taking Divine heights. Each and every response is sincere, thought provoking and GENUINE. Yes! This is how a Sadhak must think, discriminate.

Dear Brother Mike:

Indeed, Brother, it is very deep. I will do my best, to impart clarity. YOUR DEFINITION OF JEEVA IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, and PRECISE. Yes ! That is how Jeeva is defined.

Re a confirmed brain dead person

Right. Now here "conscience" is something between Self (Sentient) and Body (Inert). It is as good as Self. Sentient itself- agent of God, Real advisor to Jeeva; gets converted into Realisation in the end.

"Conscience" (Viveka) has 2 meanings. One- the Function- of Discrimination. That is more like intellect, say, higher Intellect (stablised). Two- An element more like/near to Pure Self: an entity in itself, a teaser, one who reminds, one who shows truth to Jeeva; (of course discrimination is inbuilt), one that never tells/supports a lie,always lets truth prevail inside you. One who never forgets to tell you the truth. One who takes away your peace, if you are sinning.
You remember Mike, there was one thread on this Divine Forum reg Story from Yoga Vaashistha, which was extensively covered by me and Shashikalaji ? There some one held Jeeva and countered him, questioned him, awakened him from ignorance, and sufferings. That "Conscience"- better Hindi word is something like ANTARATMA- Voice of Conscience. (We often say: My Conscience does not allow me this action.) I referred to that element. Now that is not intellect,that is not inert- BECAUSE it never CHANGES !!

Re: Past life remembrance

The journey is not complete here. Because what you have described is "SIDDHI" and as you yourself said in the next paras- it still binds you ! There You are absolutely right.

Thus, as I read your message, the paradox is in your understanding, perhaps, reg "Conscience" : its meaning, role and nature (element) only. Because its "discrimination" meaning does not fully fit into. What fits into is that conscience which was referred in that Yoga Vaashishtha story! I thought honestly (in my personal view) that this "conscience". ( separate from Jeeva; agent of God in Jeeva, who ultimately merges into Realisation- In my personal view- Pure vocal God) may see for some moments what senses in a brain dead person cant ! It was a personal thought view. I am not sure. No one can be on this. Definitely sense organs cant be seeing what you described. Hence who remained, except Jeeva/ God/ Antaratma ? I dont see anything wrong if you terms it as "subtle consciousness" - not an inappropriate term either !

Then there is one more recent thought. (It occured to me after I posted first reply). As per Gita 15:8 , at the time of death your sense organs (subtle body- mind/intellect/ego)) are picked by Jeeva just as air picks fragrance. (Unless when you have realised self/God before death). When you are dead, thus, those sense organs remain alive in you, and they may pick such experiences, and recall when you regain consciousness - Near Death Experiences !

Dear Brother Durgeshji

Q What is the relationship of Karma (actions) with Jeeva (embodied soul) ?

Answer is there is no relationship in fact. As a law no karma, however, great that Karma may be is capable of reaching SELF. However, if the karmas are made selflessly for welfare/service of others,(without expecting anything in return) then those karmas (technically called by Gita as AKARMAS) cut your BONDAGE ropes and free you from worldly chains. Reason: You are bondaged by your past karmas (which you did for selfish reasons). Your debts (bondage) get cleared when do not do anything for self and on the contrary only do for "others" !

Dear Brother Vinayakji

If Pure soul is white, and pure inert is black, then Jeeva is grey ! In fact, self is ever free. When self associates with world/adopts it, it "becomes" Jeeva (Jeeva"bhootam"- BG 7:5). Hence it is a right statement that neither pure self (white) is doer, nor inert (jad) prakruti (black) is doer. Doer is only Jeeva, because it ASSUMES himself to be doer !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

To further understand Vyasji's posting,  from book "Maanav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" (hindi) pg. 144-151 and For Salvation of Mankind in English.    How to Realize the Self, being free of Me and Mine.  It will be good if you can read this. 

Vineet Sarvottam

-----------------------------------------------------

A Bhajan by Meeraji rings in the ear:

"Upadi Ganthadi Vethani re kem Nakhi Devay? Eh to Chhe Ranchoodlal Shethni re Kem Nakhhi Devay?"

Transliterated as

Call it carrying a load of burden and how will you be able to throw it away. But call it a load you are carrying for Him and How can you throw it?  Hemendra Parikh

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Mind is the main cause of bondage in life.    If we can free ourselves from the mind (that is not accept our affinity with it) then we will be freed. 
S S Bhatt

-----------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Nice with the views of sadaks. But in certain subjects like this, it is better one refers the script pertaining to this subject, rather than giving our own multiple views which may not give authentic reply that our sri ramachandra wants. KINDLY REFER ''ARTHA PANCHAKAM'' WHICH REVEALS EXACT ANSWER TO THIS PARTICULAR QUERY. I wish sadaks reply to ordinary person in mind, by avoiding words of inert, beyond conciseness, only God nothing else etc
Sadaks due you know why God entertains kamyartha Baktha? Why his wishes are granted?
jai sri krishna
b.sathyanarayan

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

          respected frnds

    either my knowldge is incorrect, or there is a mistake here, between english word mind, and hindi word man. mind= brain, while man=heart.
    pl clearify.
    kind regards  Dnkayshap Nath

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PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

Dear Pawanji ! You asked "who enjoys" ? Answer is Jeeva (self) enjoys. Who suffers? Answer is whoever enjoys, necessarily, suffers. Jeeva suffers ! Why Jeeva suffers? Because of Bondage !Why bondage arises? Because of desires. Desires only produce sufferings and nothing else except sufferings. Why desires arise? Because of association with Jagat (Inert) ! How association with Jagat manifests ? Through "me and mine" with the Jagat ! Hence "me and mine" (with reference to Jagat) is the form of Bondage.

How to get freedom ?

Renounce either "me" (Jnana Yoga); or Renounce "mine" (Karma Yoga); or Change "me and mine" (Bhakti Yoga) !!

As simple as that !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I would like to reflect on Brother Vyas' post.

I have entered into dialog with Brother Vyas in the past on the same subject.
Even when one reads the explanation, given by his good self and that of Swamiji,
it is most difficult to get ones head around, with a crystal clear
understanding. (Well speaking for myself).
OK Jiva is described as the immortal essence that goes from birth to birth, (per
Wikipedia).
So this essence, becomes attached to this 'Human'. (That belongs to nature and
is not permanent).
At this point I would like to reflect on a past point I brought up, regarding a
confirmed brain dead person on the operating table, who was aware of what was
going on in the theater. This was an extreme case, (no blood in brain).
Recalled  not only what  was said, but also able to describe the various unique
instruments used. I recall Vyasji referred to conscience, I am familiar with the
term ' subtle consciousness'.
Now here is a paradox; on the one hand you have the brain perceiving, by means
of eyes, ears .......the senses. But at a more subtle level an awareness is also
there, got to be over run by the more course senses surely?

By the way this not an argument, I am on a learning curve!

Now if a person is proficient meditater, and is able to shut up the dominating
clatter of the mind, (tree full of monkeys), one now moves into the silent mode
of the observer.
Take one step further. Certain people, yogis, meditaters, and others, have
become acutely aware of past lives, with it comes past memories, visions
emotions an so on, this I presume is the journey of the jiva complete with these
impression.
The jiva can thus be bonded by passed events also it seems.

Thus to me, musing upon this by my unlearned abilities seems to make sense of
Brother Vyas comment pasted below:
'You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you are
sentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you are
Sentient.'

Om Shanti

Mike Keenor

---------------------------------------------------------------

This is a very interesting topic.
 
If we have established by Tat-Tvam-Asi (Supreme Consciousness), that the Jeeva (Embodied Soul) is the same substance as the Paramatma (Supreme Soul),
and if we have also resolved that mind, intellect, etc are only instruments, and therefore "jada padartha" (inert),
what is the relationship of Karma (actions) with Jeeva (embodied soul) ? I presume, gunas (attributes and qualities), being part of prakriti (Nature),  are also considered
to be a jada padarth (inert) ......!

Durgesh Mankikar,MD

------------------------------------------

Then who is the karta self or someone else. you mentioned "Even the
Swaroop (self) is not the doer" not clear
Need clarity why desire come. not mind not intelect not swarupa(Self) then ?
KIndly help

Vinayak Dalvi

----------------------------------------------------------------

Man is a product of his thoughts, what he thinks he becomes. By imitating or following the foot steps of great sains, and believing in the blessed words and actions of the Divine, one becomes divine himself. The Hindu quote also says, the knower of Divine becomes divine (Brahmavid brahmaiva bhavathi). One can experience a strange peace descending on oneself in the presence of great holy men. The subtle vibrations of those with powerful auspicious thoughts could ward off severe disasters. One more quote from Hindu scriptures prove this point further that, mind is the cause of one's bondage as well as liberation (manas eva manushyaanaam kaaranam bandha mochayoh).. For mind is just "flow of thoughts over consciousness" and the thought process decide one's destiny. Therefore, thoughts are powerful and mind is nothing but thoughts only. One could not only change the vision of the world around , but can also influence the vision of others, depending upon the person's strength of the thoughts, according to the great saints of various Faiths. Love and Love alone.... P. Gopi Krishna

----------------------------------------------------------------
The thoughts born in our mind are the cause of troubles and happiness

If we are happy with what we have we are happy desires they are the root cause of troubles - There is a proverb among keralite " Like Onam with what we have"
So be happy with what we possess
Vibiesh Cv

----------------------------------------------------
 

======================

PRIOR POSTING

----------------------------------------------
Shree Hari
Ram ram
In swamiji's book "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke liye" it is clearly written " The delusion of bondage being wiped out is called salvation."  You yourself have created this bondage .  When you consider yourself to be bound, then it is this belief itself that you need to distance yourself from.  You (Self) is already free, liberated.   Vineet Sarvottam
 
---------------------------------------------
Not mind but mental locks created by self are the cause of bondage
we create own circles and think that we are bound in a circle.
thanx
Raja Gurdasani
 
 
----------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Mind is not the cause of Bondage and for that reason neither mind, nor intellect, nor ego, nor body nor Gunas or Prakruti as a whole  is the cause of Bondage. The shelter of or reliance upon mind/intellect/ego /akruti/Gunas by the  Jeeva is the cause of bondage. It is association of Jeeva with these elements  that causes Bondage. Association  with Gunas and under the influence of that association , the Karmas which Jeeva doesbind him. KARMANU BANDHINI MANUSHYA LOKE (BG 15:2). It is the worldly desires which produce bondage. As Swamiji wrote: These desires reside in JEEVA ( the doer).  Hence the seeds or cause of bondage lies inside Jeeva . THAT Jeeva who "adopts/accepts" Jagat ( YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT- BG 7:5) !! That Jeeva who presumes himself to be THE DOER ( AHANKAAR VIMUDHATMA KARTA AHAM ITI MANYATE). "Manyate" means acceptance. Hence BONDAGE LIES IN WRONG ACCEPTANCE. LIBERATION LIES IN RIGHT ACCEPTANCE. Acceptance is the sole pr0rogative and function of SELF ( Jeeva). You are bondaged because you accept association with inert, while you are sentient. You get liberated when you RENOUNCE the shelter of INERT, as you are Sentient.

The form/svaroop of bondage? Me and Mine with the body and the worldly people, things. Saints have said:

Main mere ki jevadi, gal bandhyo sansar !

( O Jeeva!) In the chains of "me and mine" the world is hanging by your neck !

Solution ?

Daas Kabira kyon bandhe, jaake Raam adhaar !!

O Kabir (Daas- Servant/surrendered) ! Why that (Jeeva) will get bondaged who has basis of Raam (God) ? (Mineness with Paramatma and not with body/world)

Hence "accept" - Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na Koi!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------

It is true because only when we control the mind, we are able to
meditate and through this connect to the Parmatma. Because we cannot
control the mind, we are controlled by it and our mind keeps us
attatched to worldly things to attain which we go to extraordinary
lengths. Thus we use our yukti or technique and shakti or strength. We
forget bhakti or spirituality which leads us to mukti or liberation
from the endless cycle of birth and death and thus we are condemned to
be born again and again  to satisfy our unfulfilled desires. The
ultimate goal of uniting with God for which we were born as the rarest
of rare, human beings with the capacity of vivek or discrimination is
totally forgotten.
Hari Shanker Deo

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

Shri Hari
Ram Ram
Who is the enjoyer, I can not understand Paani.Asta.?
Please help me to understand the above.
Thanks & Regards
Pawan Kumar Singhal

----------------------------------------------------------------

PARTIAL POSTING

Now reflect on this that "Where does a desire reside?" Many people are of the
belief that desire resides in the mind. But as such the desire does not reside
in the mind; it only comes into the mind (visits) - Prajahaati yadaa
kaamaanssarvaanpaarth manogataam" (Gita 2/55). Mind is an internal instrument
(anthakaran). An instrument has no desires at all. Does a pen have desire to
write? Does a car have desire to move? No, it does not. If we hold that a
desire is in the mind, then when the desire is not satiated, the mind should
suffer pain, but instead when the desire is not satiated, the one's ownself
(swayam) becoming the "doer and enjoyer" suffers pain. Therefore in fact the
desire does not abide in the mind - intellect (instruments), but is in the doer
(kartaa). An instrument (karan) depends on the doer (kartaa). But being
entangled in the duality, in the form of pleasure and pain, caused by the
fulfillment or unfulfillment of desires, a man's discriminating faculty (vivek)
does not function properly and so he holds that desire to be in the mind.

Now reflect on who is the doer? If the mind had been a doer (agent), it would
have not acted becoming sub-servient to the intellect. It is everyone's
experience (anubhav) that when the intellect determines to not to do something,
then the mind leaves the desire to do that thing, and when the intellect firmly
resolves to do something, then the mind begins to desire to do that thing. But
the intellect is also not an independent agent, because intellect is also an
inner instrument. When a man derives pleasure from fulfilling a desire, then
his intellect decides to do that action. But the man who knows that the outcome
of enjoyment of pleasures is only pain, he renounces the pleasure derived from
fulfillment of desires. Thereafter instead of his intellect being inclined
towards pleasures, decides to renounce the desire for pleasure. The instrument
is dependent on the doer. It is very beneficialand in perfecting an action.
"Sadhakatam karanam" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/42) But the doer is independent "Swatantra
kartaa" (Paani. Asta. 1/4/54). Even the Swaroop (self) is not the doer; because if
there was doership in the self (swaroop) then it would never be wiped out.
Therefore Bhagwaan has in the Gita negated the doership in the self (swaroop) -
"sharirastopi kaunteya ne karoti ne lipyate." (Gita 13/31). In reality, He who
is the enjoyer, that same one is the doer.

From "Manav Maatre Kalyaan ke Liye" pg 126-127 and "For Salvation of Mankind"
in English pg 130-132 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

For ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net
For full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

-------------------------------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER
1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant to
Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take up
spiritual path
2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study
3. Only one question at a time.
4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim
of deeper understanding of Gita.


GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -
1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.
2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.
3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they
further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.
5. Focus on subject at hand only.
6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address
etc) or personalize message to particular person
7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify
the posting.
8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit
the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
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[gita-talk] Re: TAT TVAM ASI - Brief Exact Meaning

 

Dear Sadaks,
I would like to know the exact meaning in very few lines about "TATVAMASI"
B.Sathyanarayan
=====================================

NEW POSTING

Hari Om

A thought came on Tat Tvam Asi . You are That. What are you? You are That ! What is that? That is opposite of This! What is "This" ? "This" is idam? This is inert ! This is body. This is nature. This is Apara ! This is Jad. This is perishable. (Idam shariram Kaunteya kshetram.... BG 13:1)

You are what? You are different than "this"! You are "that" ! You are not Jad (idam- this) you are chetan (that). You are not body (this), you are soul (that). You are not mortal( this) , you are immortal (that). You are not Prakruti( this) , you are Purusha (that). You are not perishable (this), you are imperishable (that) !!

Just a thought!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
It is there in Bagavath Geetha, said by Bhagavan. Like Sant Ramanuja told a mantra to go to Vaikunt- "Om Namo Narayanaya". But it does not work as the deapth in which meaning it is said is "Rahasiyam" (Sanskrit word) means truth hidden. No millions words- Bagavan said in 2 lines only.  Sri Raja Gurdasani is near.  Sri Durgesh Mankikar,MD 
said  "Tat = That, Tvam = You. Asi = Are."  Sadaks, like in Geetha Bagavan refers himself as ME. Bagavan is himself Tattuvam- not 2 seperate. Then "That"- refers to something else. Bagavan could have said- Tat is ME. The space in cup and outside the cup is one and same. Material creates Maya as if it is divided. Bagavan in us will illumine the answer.
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan

---------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Most commonly quoted, in the old English form,"THOU ART THAT".
From my understanding. A million lines could not express the exact meaning!
But in a moments flash as it were, it could be understood, but not
intellectually!
So a point came to mind, about that women who was made brain dead, for that
ground breaking operation I mentioned before.
I asked who/what saw without eyes, heard without ears, stored this memory in
what, to be remembered later? Brother Vyas mentioned consciousness, I would read
that as pure consciousness, or the Buddhist's expression subtle consciousness,
that subtle essence beyond nature and time, but is aware.
This is not an explanation of TAT TVAM ASI, but merely a thought, a reminder of
the fact there is knowing beyond the senses.
Best I can do!

Om... Shanti...

Mike. (K)
----------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Shri Naga Narayanaji, to you and to several others - Thank you for being able to express succinctly and with deep sentiments, the various thoughts that have arisen in my mind   ! 

Thank you very much

Vineet Sarvottam

-------------------------------------------

Hari Aum!

Durgesh Mankikar ji ,

Would like to know your bigger explanation

Geetha subramanian

---------------------------------

Durgesh,
Can you elaborate more???
 
Thanks
Heta Raval

--------------------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

I would like to know the exact meaning in very few lines about "TATVAMASI"

"Tattvamasi : TAT TVAM ASI" means "YOU ARE THAT".

What YOU means? ...

What THAT means? ...

What ARE means? ...

That cannot be explained even in zillions of words and sentences ... because,
any language cannot even reach there, let alone explain! They are words ... mere
words ... what we appreciate IS within ... best explained by the Absolute
Silence within where no explanations can enter.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

-------------------------------------------------------------

TAT-TWAM-ASI

In the amazed wonder of discovery, Govinda,

narinder danced, "Tum Hee Ho, Krishna, Tum Hee Tau Ho!"

And the whole Universe reverbrated with the sound

Tat-twam-asi, Tat-twam-asi, Tat-twam-asi !!!

narinder was no more, never-more, never-ever !

And Existence rejoiced, "Tat-twam-asi, narinder, Tat-twam-asi.....

.....Sing narinder sing,

sing the song of Love

now, , sing the song of One-ness

aham braham-asmi, aham braham-asmi ...... aum !"

AUM

" tu tu karta tu bhaya .............. "          

( thou ,  beloved.....thou , thou, thou,

thou it is, singing the song 'thou, thou, thou .....tat twam asi  )

Ek Aumkar Sat Naam

(gurbani)

narinder bhandari

---------------------------------------------------------------------

That is you
what u are searching is your own swaroop
Thanx
Raja Gurdasani
--------------------------------------------------

This can be a very short or a very long answer, depending on your understanding.
In short, Tat = That, Tvam = You. Asi = Are.
 
You are That.
You are that God outside and inside.
 
Look at a cup. there is space inside the cup and there is space outside the cup.
If you break the cup, what happens ? The two spaces merge, leading to one Space.
There is no chemical reaction, whether the cup was hot or cold.
 
What about the cup itself ? There is a bigger explanation, but since you want a short explanation---there is space between every molecule of the cup. In fact, the cup is a soldified Space, with molecules that are placed very close together. Everything is Space. Everything is energy. Everything is God.
 
I can give you a bigger explanation, if you desire.
 
Durgesh Mankikar,MD


----------------------------------------------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER
1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant to
Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take up
spiritual path
2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study
3. Only one question at a time.
4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim
of deeper understanding of Gita.


GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -
1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.
2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.
3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they
further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.
5. Focus on subject at hand only.
6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address
etc) or personalize message to particular person
7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify
the posting.
8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit
the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------
Post message: gita-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: gita-talk-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[gita-talk] Re: Bhagavad Gita - Daily - II CHAPTER 3-28 II

 

Gita 3-28

tattva-vit tu mahaa-baaho, guna-karma-vibhaagayoh
gunaa gunesu vartanta, iti matvaa na sajjate

"But O mighty-armed (Arjuna) ! the great one who knows the truth about the sphere of Gunas (modes of Prakriti) and sphere of actions, realizing that `it is the Gunas (modes) itself in an interplay amidst the Gunas, he does not get attached to them."

Comment:

It is a rule that to know the Samsaar or the world (objects and actions) - one has to separate himself from the Samsaar (world) and to know God - one has to merge or become one with God. The reason is, in fact we are separate from the world and are one with God. The great man of realization, on separating himself entirely from the spheres of objects and actions, he knows that all this is a play of Gunas of Prakriti, meaning that all actions are happening in the world only, no action is being performed in the Self.

From "Gita Prabodhani"  in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chapter 3, Verse 28 is as follows;

Tattvavit = the knower of the truth / one with true insight

Tu = but

Mahaabaaho = O mighty armed Arjuna!

GuNakarma-VibhaagayoH = of the divisions of qualities and functions

GuNaaH = qualities (in the shape of senses)

GuNeShu =amidst the qualities (in the shape of objects)

Vartante = remain

Iti = thus

Matvaa = thinking / knowing well

Na = not

Sajjate = is attached

English translation:-

But he, O mighty-armed Arjuna, with true insight into the distinctions of GuNaas (qualities) and Karmas (actions) knowing that GuNaas (as senses) abide in GuNaas (as objects), that true knowledgeable one, is not attached.

Comment:

In Sanskrit language `GuNa' means string or a single thread or strand of a cord or twine. In more abstract uses, it means a subdivision, species, kind, quality or an operational principle or tendency.

In Samkhya philosophy, there are three major GuNaas that serve as the fundamental operating principles or 'tendencies' of Prakruti (universal nature) which are called as Sattva, Rajasa and Tamasa. The three primary GuNaas some have associated with creation (Sattva), preservation (Rajasa), and destruction (Tamasa). The entire creation and its process of evolution are carried out by these three major GuNaas.

All actions are performed, in all cases, merely by the qualities of Prakruti i.e. the Mother Nature. While a person deluded by egoism believes that he is the performer, O mighty armed Arjuna, on the contrary, the knower of the truth regarding the distinction between constituents of Prakruti and their operations, does not attach himself to actions, having the requisite knowledge that constituents operate amidst constituents.

There is an affinity and kinship between the senses and their respective objects. Both are constituted of the same elements and GuNaas. Let us consider an example of fire. Emitting heat and light are the characteristics of fire. The combination of GuNaas in fire takes one form as the sensory perception of sighting a fire and another form as the object of the sight. Due to sameness of nature in both of them, sense experience becomes possible. In fact, this is valid in regard to all the five senses. But Aatman, the subset of the superset Brahman, remains unaffected by the sensory organs and their sensory perceptions; just like the `Aakaasha' i.e. the infinite space is the substratum to the clouds engulfing the planet Earth. The sage, who realises this truth, is free from attachments and the resultant entanglements.

An enlightened one, who identifies with the Self, acknowledges that individual inherent, intrinsic tendencies (Vaasanaas) determine the qualities (GuNaas) of activities. He recognises that Vaasanaas, GuNaas are arising out of Prakruti and resultant Karmas / actions are functioning apart from the Self. In his complete and clear identification with the Self, he continues to remain detached and unaffected by the play of Prakruti. He becomes a dispassionate onlooker of the dramas enacted by the GuNaas. At the same time he fully appreciates that everyone's internal GuNaas (qualities) will perforce manifest to corresponding actions and that everyone will be drawn to compatible beings, objects and environments. No wonder that the birds of same feathers flock together. With such rare insight, the enlightened person remains totally objective in his outlook and remains unattached to the happenings in the World.

Once a wise man realises that actions belong to the plays of various evolutes of ever changing Mother Nature, he is no more anxious for the fruits thereof. He transcends beyond the dualities of success and failure, likes and dislikes, loves and hatreds. Thus, in the complete inner freedom, as a true sportsman in his play field, he enjoys every moment in the sport without any botheration of what is the current score. Such a master of senses is the real hero and he is called as `Tattva-Vid' i.e. the one who has the knowledge of the `Parama-Tattva' i.e. the ultimate reality of the Self.

Please refer the Verses 19 to 22 in Chapter 13 of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has clarified in great details that both Prakruti (matter) and PuruSha (spirit / energy) are beginningless and all the modifications and qualities are born of Prakruti. In the production of effect and cause, Prakruti (matter) is considered to be a cause while in the experience of pleasure and pain, Purusha (spirit / energy) is considered to be the cause. Purusha seated in Prakruti experiences the GuNaas (qualities) born of Prakruti; attachment to the GuNaas is the cause of its birth in good and evil wombs. The Supreme Purusha in this mortal body is thus said to be the witness, permitter, supporter, enjoyer, great Lord and also the Supreme Self.

Please refer the Verse 23 in Chapter 14 of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has reiterated that he, who seated like an unconcerned one, is not moved by GuNaas or qualities of Mother Nature, fully realising that only GuNaas function and therefore he does not waver and remains firm.

Lord Krishna encourages Arjuna that being a mighty armed one; he should use all his strength and valour to gain the mastery over his own Vaasanaas, GuNaas and Karmas.

A true warrior is the one, who tirelessly fights a battle in his inner world and gains a victory over his ignorance and the corresponding attachments. Lord Krishna had earned the title of `Hrushikesha' meaning the one who has complete mastery over his senses. Therefore, Lord Krishna had the requisite authority to guide and encourage Arjuna to emulate his own example by transcending beyond the interplay of the three GuNaas as per his advice in the Verse 45 of Chapter 2 in Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta.

Thanks & Best Regards,

Shrikant Joshi

====================================

To learn more -
please visit Hindi website: www.swamiramsukhdasji.org
please visit English website: www.swamiramsukhdasji.net

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