Friday, July 31, 2009

[gita-talk] Re: WHAT IS NOT GOD / BHAGAWAN / PARAMATMA ?

 

Shree  Hari Ram Ram. 

Sadhakas are requested to state what Gita tells us about 'what is not God / Bhagawan / Paramatma' giving quotes from Gita only.

This is to find if there exists that which is "not God,"  If it ever exists.

Ram Ram. Vineet, Sarvottam

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NEW POSTING

Dear Sadaks,

What Paramathuma created is Samasti Shriti upto Sri Bhramaji. In it HE created different combinations of 3 gunas.  There after the creation was Vesti Shriti Sri Bhramaji works. It was then the ignorance came in. In Chirstian philosophy and Muslim thoughts there is one called Seten or Sitan (Agynan). Please read Srimath Bagavath and Geetha 10th Chapter with hidden meanings. I will quote sloka, verses details later.

The agynan stands separate as that is the tool that tests all humans to see the purity. Only due to Agynan people become terrorist, cruel, cheaters Etc. The swaroop of Agynan is Ravana, Duryodhan, Kans. There previous Karma is connected to Agynan. I am not fully Gynani. I still have flaws. The level of flaws may very less. Some may have more level of flaws. Only when one comes out of the test as Sant Tukaram said- Kamini and Kanchan, he is divine with God. Scripts are very clear that upto Brahma Lok there is sleep, hunger, and desire. Only Humans have the gift to directly reach Vaikunt or Kailash. Gyan is Swaroop of Bagavan. So agyan cannot be from Bagavan or part of Bagavan. Bagavan has killed so many bad ones that were in Agynan. If Bagavan and Agynan are one, then where is the question of Samhar. The Samhar is to body not to the soul. The Agynan is perishable with the body. So Bagavan removes Agynan from soul and sets it free. Bagavan is called Purushotam, means completely flawless in all aspects. Then Bagavan does have absolutely NO flaw. Only WHO is Purushotam can make other flawless.

Existence (Energy)= M to the power of C (Conversion of matter) Scientifically

Some are dead though they are living says many scripts and saints.

Only when one understands fully his purpose of coming on this earth is Consciousness.  Other conscience is ignorance in disguise, like to say one is living. Tree, animal etc  also lives. That is not consciousness. One who fully follows principle of Geetha or Puranas Dharma and lives by it, is consciousness. Speaking or teaching or just knowing about Sat is not consciousness, but by being with Sat.

Sri Naaradh anger can be felt by Sri Sarvottam. How is it possible? A most minor not traceable amount of Agynan makes one feel the anger.

Negative and positive are not temporary modifications. They are result producers permanently when manifestation takes place and abides in Paramathuma. Any thing on earth or other 13 worlds works only on these two. Only when negative and positive are there bulb light up. There is negative and positive energies in all living things. Once when a person becomes totally positive (Like Adi Sankara- Buddha- Christ) no anger, desires Etc in them. Their energy level radiates to 12 Km radius, as such, by their Dharshan alone one gets to realize.

Pardon me

Jai Sri Krishna

B.sathyanarayan

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Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!!
 
I request Moderators to tell contributors to quote specific teachings of Swamiji in print rather than giving page nos etc as Vineetji has done. If it is a serious study than they must take pains to QUOTE from the books so that all Sadhaks may benefit. By giving page nos of some book and then making categorical remarks of Swamiji teachings being impossible to be wrong will not help westerners to understand. I dont think in any Swamiji's books IT IS CATEGORICALLY stated that  in AGYAAN God resides. It must have been in different context. And why... bring Swamiji unless there is need for clarification ? Is not in Gita itself it is written that I AM BEYOND DARKNESS ( BG 13: 17). Read Gita Prabodhani Hindi Page 372 : Swamiji has stated:-
 
Just as in Sun darkness can never come ; in God AGYAAN can never come, it CANNOT come, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO COME.
 
 I am referring to same Swamiji.... Mr Vineet..... AS IT IS !   Now please kindly share with us the results of your SERIOUS RESEARCH and STUDY as early as possible.
Raam! Raam !! Raam !!!
 
Anirudh Joshi
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Bhagvad Geeta does mention the manifestation Divine in various Natural Phenomena
as detailed in Chapter 10, its central message is how to become Divine.Verse
52/2 deals with this: When your intellect comes out of mud of attachment, you
will be able to read the open book of Nature - will not require discourses.
Hence what is not God is not the central theme of Geeta. To come out of
attachment is to become God or God-like.
Jayantilal Shah

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Jai Shree Krishna
 
SINCE YOU ARE QUITE INSISTENT ON GITA.... GITA  and HENCE I AM QUOTING GITA ...GITA only:
 
1 There is no God in IGNORANCE as Lord Krishna Himself has stated in BG 7 12 - NA TWAM TESHU TE MAYI ( I am not in them and they are not in me)! Is Lord Krishna wrong ? COME ON !! Dont tell me ignorance does not exist and only God exists....because if that is so why God talked about it ? This position is confirmed only in 7:14 !!
 
2. There is no God in GUNAS ! Because Lord says in 7:13 that fools do not understand that I am beyond GUNAS ! If He is beyond Gunas: How can He be in Gunas ? Read 14:19 also.
 
3. There is no God existing in idiots , moodhas , mohitas, as they do not recognise God because had there been Godhood in them they would not have remained ignorant ( BG 7:12/13/15/24/25: 9:11)
 
4 There is no God existing IN THIS ENTIRE WORLD's JEEVAS because God has stated that NA CHAAHAM TESHWAVASHTHITAM and NA CHA MATSTHAANI BHUTANI in 9:4 /5 . Is God wrong? There is no God in Prakruti because He is beyond Prakruti. That Prakruti is His power only does not mean that He is there in it. He is causing it not residing in it ? What do you say Mr Vineet ?
 
5 There is no God existing in DARKNESS ! God has stated that  He is TAMASAH PARAM UCHYATE ( BG 13:17) ! Is God wrong? How can He be in darkness when He Himself says that He is beyond it?
 
6 There is no God in ASURI PEOPLE referred in Chapter 16. Because had God been existing in them then how they would have indulged into ....MAMATMAPARDEHESHU PRADVASHINTO BHYASUCHAKA  (16:18) ! Any body who has God in Him can He do so, Mr Vineet Sarvottam? Can you do so Sir ?  
 
7 God states in 16:19 that He consigns ASURI people to hells again and again. If God is existing in them, and Lord Krishna consigns them to hell is He not doing what is stated in 13:28?
 
I have not scrolled through Entire Gita.  Kindly read carefully Vyasji's message from today. 
Swami Rupesh Kumar 
 
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Narain ! Narain !!
 
No Vineet, Sarvottamji Maharajs ! I was never angry !  
 
If I ask you - Iis God not there in SIN? In Stool ? You will not be able to say NO ! Then if  I ask you why should not I sin when God is very well in that ? What will you reply? How in that case Gita will be "LIVED" ? How the distinction between 16:1 to 3 and balance chapter 16 will be drawn?  If you conclude: There is no God in so and so then your reference of BG 7:19 will be futile. Moreover the biggest fault lies in corelating BG 7:19 with 18:66 !! If all is God who will surrender to whom ? Why? No Vineetji Maharaj ! By telling  that you are in surrendered mode only already...nothing will emerge, because then why 18:66 is there in Gita. WHOEVER TALKS ABOUT GITA ONLY INTRODUCES HIS INTELLECT. IN FACT AFTER UNDERSTANDING GITA....... ONE BECOMES SILENT.   By the way, Gita is full of verses WHERE LORD HIMSELF HAS TOLD THAT HE IS NOT IN THAT OR HE IS BEYOND THAT. I am not narrating because I want you to read yourself. How else will you read Gita otherwise?
 
Narain ! Narain !!
 
Naarad N Maharishi  

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there is two _________(plz fill with appropriate word) in this present universe whether you are studying the Gita, The Ramayan, The Vedas, The Kuran, The Bible:1. Mass 2 Energy except these two nothing else
 
Ranjankumar
 
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Shree Hari:
Ram Ram.
Revered Answerers :
Shree B. Sathyanarayanjee :
Your statement There exists Agyan apart from God needs Quotations from scriptures referred by you.
Please view at pages 202, 203, 204 of Manavamatrake Kalyanke Liye (Hindi) ISBN 81-293-0497-X and ascertain if Ajnan (ignorance) is NOT GOD. If Ajnan is NOT GOD all what Swamiji told us in those pages becomes untrue which is IMPOSSIBLE.
 
Shree Naarad N MahaRishijee :
Your anger is natural as you, too couldn't find 'What is NOT GOD'? Please help us find 'What is NOT GOD?'  We seek your help in finalizing the search. 
 
Ram Ram.
Vineet,
Sarvottam
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How can anything not be God especially as there is only The Divine Reality in which all of this, both apparently positive, and apparently negative, arises as a temporary modification of The Divine.
 
 "John Forth"
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Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
This is to respond to Sathyanarayanji's post!
Even Ignorance cannot exist apart(as independent reality) from God which is Absolute Existance= Consciousness! Whoever says ignorance exists independently from God, is himself/herself Conscious-Being only. And God is Conscious-Being!
It is like: to say I am dead, one has to be alive! or to say I was not there before my birth, I have to be there to say "I was not". Also I have to "know" that "I don't know(ignorance)" so and so,right? So, again knowing-ness has to be there which IS Consciousness!
So you see, ignorance cannot exist without being conscious of ignorance! We cannot experience our non-existence and therefore, everthing is I-Sat-Chit in which knowledge and ignorance, likes/dislikes, pairs of opposites are perceived only! And the stuff (vastu) of all such perceptions is Consciousness-God! In otherwords, all our experiences(includig mundane ones) are undenyably "KNOWINGNESS"! ONLY God IS!
Namaskar.......Pratap Bhatt
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Hari om

I have said earlier and I repeat that there is God everywhere. But for any individual soul His presence is entirely dependent on "acceptance" by that individual ! There is God no where if an individual soul does not "accept" that ! Hence existence of God vis a vis an individual Jeeva is entirely dependent upon his "acceptance" / "sveekruti"/ "maanyata" !! What is fact is immaterial because, in ignorance mode, that truth is not manifested. Entire Gita teachings are designed to first identify this classification and then reveal the truth; so that individual "accepts" the same. Till he (individual) accepts presence of God ; THERE IS NO GOD existing for that soul.

Satsanga is ultimately for individual Jeevas; for emancipation of individual. There is no mass emancipation. Hence truth has to be viewed from "acceptance"/Sveekruti/ Manyata yardstick only. Even God does that only.

If we say, God is in all , then the Questioner says: I asked you to tell me as to where the God is not.  I tell God is not there in ignorance.

I go a step further. I dont presence of God  in every that thing in which I dont believe that there is God. In fact God also believes exactly what I believe, as per Gita . He deals with an individual under exactly that belief only. COME ON !!

Of course, I am awaiting as eagerly the outcome of this very special serious research which has been undertaken by some of the Learned Sadhaks. Naturally, the study cant conclude that "God is in all" because that was the answer each and every sadhak gave clearly but was not accepted and search was continued, and a request was made to GT Moderators reg advicing us    "to live" Gita and not merely indulge in "rituals" !

I also await linking of BG 7:19 with 18:66 !! Basically, I believe that a question can not arise and should not arise as to what is not God at least in that individual who believes himself in what is stated in BG 7:19. Because the very Q suggests doubt ! Very Q suggests a possibility of God not being somewhere ! Very Q suggests something inequally prevalent - be it wisdom or knowledge or Jnana or Bhakti or anything- not SARVAM !! The very Q suggests an individually known truth and not universal truth !!!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
 

 
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Jai Shree Hari,

The BhagavaanJi has described the Brahman (i.e. GOD) as "NA SAT NA ASAT UCHYATE - Gitaji 13/12" (i.e. GOD is neither SAT/ nor ASAT). In otherwords, GOD is not bound by the duality of SAT(i.e.sentient) and ASAT (i.e. insentient). So, as long as we are in the realm of SAT and ASAT, we can not realize the ONE who is beyond SAT and ASAT (TVAM AKSHARM SAT ASAT TAT PARAM YAT - Gitaji 11/37). He is just the ONE who is everything.

May God bless us all.
Niteesh Dubey

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Hello!
 
Jai Manav
There is only two _________(plz fill with appropriate word) in this present universe whether you are seeking knowledge from the studying of the Gita, The Ramayan, The Vedas, The Kuran, or The Bible
 
1. Mass
2 Energy
 
Nothing else beyond this.
Ranjankumar
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Dear Sadhak Sarvotham,
You wanted to know, from Vyas NB : There exists nothing but God. This is the only TRUTH. Request is 'Please quote from Gita saying 'what is NOT God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa'.
Agynan (Ignorance) word which is there in Geetha as well as in Upanashids. It also says that Agynan existed Anaathi Kal (Time unknown) -Source Vivekachdamani, Padma Puran, Garuda Puran. There exists Agynan apart from GOD.
Can anyone call or say that GOD exists in Agynan (ignorance).
Jai Sri Krishna.
B.Sathyanarayan
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Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!!
 
One wonders as to how deep knowledge of Gitaji can be there and how Gitaji "impacts" individual brains, minds, intellects, egos and Selves ! Grace of Gitaji is infinite.. We all are keenly awaiting the outcome of Divine Serious Pious Study being conducted for the benefit of Sadhaks by Vineet Sarvottamji. I am sure a lot of precious gems will emerge out of this study. Indeed we want to learn how to "live Gitaji". The aura woven around such a blessed  Sarvottamji and Vineetji is unprecedented in the history of GT  Group.
 
Waiting anxiously.
 
Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!!

Anirudh
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Jai Shree Krishna
 
Keenly awaiting the outcome of this "serious study"  !
 
Swami Rupesh Kumar
 
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Radhey ! Radhey !!
 
Genuinely, I also believe that EVERYTHING IS PARAMATMA.
 
We all are obliged to Divine GT Moderators under whose permission, supervision and jurisprudence such a serious study of " WHAT IS NOT BHAGWAAN/PARAMATMA/GOD " We Sadhaks are due to get some special results of this remarkable special and serious research and study. I would urge Divine GT Moderators to let us know EVERYDAY regarding the progress achieved in this study and the outcome of this serious study?

Radhey ! Radhey !!
 
Nisha
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Narain ! Narain !!
 
Did Swamiji ever says such things? .......  such as -  if they are not able to find out what is not God from Gita...then they are not "living Gita" as then they are merely indulging into "rituals"  ?
 
Now, a note will be given answering the Qs ...after ascertaining from this "serious study" (all other things on this Satsanga site have already been proclaimed by the Questioner to be "rituals"... right under the nice nose (s) of Moderator Brother (s) ....  Narain ! Narain !!) which note will be seen by GT Moderators....and if they find that the same is going to help Sadhaks...then they shall put it on the site ?  Otherwise " KHEL KHATTAM" !! What a drama ? What a serious study ? What a way to " LIVE GITA" ? What a way to appease "favoured" contributors ?  Narain ! Narain !!
 
You are Great , O Questioner and O Brother Moderators !  But we are anxiously awaiting the results of this "serious study" !! I pray to Lord Naraina that some "new substance/ some secret" springs out of the magician's hat... to benefit us all. It should NEVER be " TAAIN TAAIN FISSS" ! It should not be " KHODA PAHAAR .. NIKALI CHUHIA....WOH BHI MARI HUI" ! I hope Moderators are quite seasoned in that regard. These mails have gone to 20000+ people....with declaration of serious study and not a ritual...after blaming them that they are not "living Gita" !!! O World ! Here is the realised soul giving you nectar from Gita !! Catch your breath.
 
Narain ! Narain!!
 
Naarad N Maharishi
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PRIOR POSTING

Namaste

Since GITA tells us everything IS GOD, and does not tell us that there
is anything that is NOT GOD, then the logical inference is there is
nothing that is NOT GOD.

Trying to prove a negative when there is no proof or evidence of the 'negative fact'
is impossible; hence, one may have to resort to negative inference which is
not sufficiently robust in many cases to prove the negative beyond a reasonable
doubt.

But for me, and I hazard a guess this would be the case for most, if not all
sadhaks, there is no doubt that GITA is absolutely clear that GOD is all, He is
everything, and I fully accept that there is nothing that is NOT GOD even though
it is not explicitly stated as such in GITA.

Still, I am open to any references from GITA and other Scriptures that clearly and
unambiguously states that anything is NOT GOD. Of course, there isn't any such
reference because Bhagavan Krishna tells us in many verses of GITA that He is
All, He pervades, He is Omnipotent, and He is Everything. Good enough for me.

Ram Ram,
Deosaran Bisnath

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Jai Shri Hari!
Shri "Vineet ji" is absolutely right that where the feeling of "What is not God" ends, saadhak lives in the only and ever existing "IS".

Regarding the talking point, as far as I remember at this point of time, Bhagavaanji has not said "WHAT IS NOT GOD" directly to Arjun though he did say that he is not in something and that something is not in him.
1) Feelings created by DEHI/JEEV being influnced by the 3modes of Prakriti. (7/12).
 "NA TU AHAM TESHHU" (7/12),
2) I am not in beings and beings are not in me though they are held by me. "NA CHA AHAM TESHHU AVASTHITAM, ....." (9/4-5-6).

Other ways to look "WHAT IS NOT GOD" in Gitaji:
1) GOD is called by many other names  (BRAHM, PARAMAATMAA, PARAM SHANTI, PARAM BHAVA, ANANT SHANTI, PARAM DHAAM, PARAMPURUSHHA, ADIDEV, PURUSHHOTTAM, BRAHM NIRVAAN, YOGA, SAMATA,  MOKXA, AMRRITA, AATYANTIK SUKHA, AIKAANTIK SUKHA, PARAM SUKHA,  (saadhya) GYAAN, PARAA BHAKTI,  AKARMA etc...) from different perpective in Gitaji. So, anything which is not any one of these  is "NOT GOD".

2) What ever Bhagavan ji has asked Arjun to give up or get rid of  are "NOT GOD" as only the adapted things that are temporary/unreal can be given up/destroyed. In other words, GOD does not live in the unreal which is "NOT REAL" itself. This may include any artificialities/ritual/dharma/kaam/attachment born out of ignorance. This is what I see in "SARVA DHARMAAN PARITYAJYA.."(18/66). Gitaaji is full of such advices (JAHI SHATRUM MAHAABAAHO KAAMRUPAM DURAASADAM -3/43, CHHITVAINAM SHANSHYAM YOGAM AATISHTHA UTTISHHTHA -4/42 .....).

Best Regards
Niteesh Dubey

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Ram Ram all Sadhakas who are replied below:
Jayantilal Shah : Verses 8 to 16 of chapter 16 speak of some ignorant beings but NOT of 'what is not God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa'. The 20 verses of chapter 15 speak of world-tree, Paramaatmaa and other beings but nothing is said there as to 'what is not God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa'. If you feel God is lost in Taliban you are mistaken. Nothing goes beyond God's Will. Do you think Taliban is stronger than God? No. They are having their own time like Kauravas had. please quote from Gita 'what is not God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa?'
Niteesh Dubey : Verses 16 of 2, verses 4, 5, 7 of 7, verse 4 of 9, verses 39, 42 of 10 all describe what God IS but not 'what is not God/Bhagawaa/Paramaatmaa?' verse 12 of 7 describes the 'gunas' not 'what is not God/Bhagawaa/Paramaatmaa?' Please read page 478 of Sadhak Sanjeevanee explaining 'na tvaham teshu te mayi'  and you will find what God IS but not what God is not. please find and quote from Gita 'what is not God/Bhagawaa/Paramaatmaa?'
Request to Gita-Talk Moderators: Still no Sadhak is coming forward to quote from Gita as to 'What is not God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa?' Should the study be continued or dropped now? If closed, a separate mail will be sent answering the Question, to circulate if considered useful to Sadhakas.
Vineet,
Sarvottam.
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PRIOR POSTING

Such a thing is not possible, but when veil of Avidya becomes too thick,then it
is not possible for even a dim light of the soul to come out. This is temporary
like pitch dark in the middle of the night.Verses 8 to 16 of Chapter 16 of
Bhagvad=Geeta give a vivid picture of behavioural characteristics of such
persons. Although God is still present,Divinity gets obscured. Otherwise, 15th.
Chapter starts with 'Urdhva Mulam'an assurance that at all times our connection
with God cannot be snapped.
When I read reports about Taliban in Pakistan, sometimes I feel that temporarily
God has disappeared in them. I pray that they may also get the same Light as we
get through our Satsang.Geeta's  message is Universal for those who would like
to listen.
Jayantilal Shah

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Jai Shri Hari!

Shri Vyas ji is absolutely right that there should not be a place of such question itself as Bhagavaan ji has said "NA ABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH"(2/16), "MATTAH PARATARM NANYAT.." (7/7), "MAYA TADAMIDAM SARVAM GAGAT AVYAKT MURTINA.." (9/4), "..NA TADASTI VINA YATSYAAT MAYA BHOOTAM CHARACHARAM" (10/39), "VISHTABHYAMIDAM KRITSNAM EKAANSHEN STHITO JAGAT" (10/42) etc......

If we think about anything, that will be either from his APARA NATURE or from his PARA NATURE who is holding this world (7/4-5). The LINKAGE/IGNORANCE/MAAYA/AVIDYA  which we have created ourselves and got entangled by putting ourselves in the domain of APARA (i.e. by giving importance to APARA, the lower nature of God, and not the God) is the place/linkage/granthi where God does not reside. This is the thing for which God says "NA TU AHAM TESHHU" in Shloka 7/12 (i.e. I am not in them). As long as we use this lens/linkage/ignorance to see (GO GOCHAR JAHAN MAN LAGI JAAYI | SO SAB MAAYA JAANEHU BHAI  - MAANAS) the God, we will not be able to understand "VAASUDEV SARVAM ITI" .

Jai Shri Hari
Niteesh Dubey

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Ram Ram all Sadhakas who are replied below:
Mike Keenor : please quote 'what is not God' from Gita. Verse 7 - 14 says about illusion which is also God's hence it IS God.
B. satyanarayanan : Chapter 16 of Gita, none of the 24 verses say 'what is NOT God'. Please quote from Gita 'What is NOT God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa.
Deosaran Bisnath : You have said what is TRUE. There exists nothing that is not God. But the quoted verses 9 - 16 to 19, 10 - 19 to 39 donot say anything about 'what is not God'. Please quote from Gita 'what is not God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa'.
Vyas NB : There exists nothing but God. This is the only TRUTH. Request is 'Please quote from Gita saying 'what is NOT God/Bhagawaan/Paramaatmaa'.
Humble Request to Gita-Talk Moderators : Kindly let Sadhakas not only read and interpret Gita but to 'live Gita' which is the very purpose of verses 19 of chapter 7 and 66 of chapter 18 as emphasized by Swamijee. Where this pursuit for 'what is NOT God' ends Sadhaka lives in what is IS.
Ram Ram.
Vineet,
Sarvottam.
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Dear Sadaks,
(chapter 16 wrt the "asuri" nature souls. Hence although Paramatma exists in all and in everything, however, to the ignorant ones He does not exist, for they don't "assume/accept" so !) says a sadak. Even in ignorant ones HE exists, but the ignorance is the cause to uncover Bagavan in his mind.
In ADHARMA "NOT GOD"
B.Sathyanarayan

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Namaste

Extremely commendable effort to link Gita 7-19:
"At the end of many births, the man of wisdom takes refuge in Me, realising that all this is Vâsudeva (the innermost Self). Very rare is that great soul."

with Gita 18-66:


"Relinquishing all Dharmas take refuge in Me alone; I will liberate thee from all sins; grieve not."


I thought Gita 11-40 may also be included:
"Salutation to Thee before and behind, salutation to Thee on every side, O All! Thou, infinite in power and infinite in prowess, pervadest all; wherefore Thou art All."

I look forward to the informative and divine discussions on this, and other topics.

Ram Ram
Deosaran Bisnath

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PRIOR POSTING

Shree  Hari: Ram Ram. 
Sadhakas were requested to state what Gita tells us about 'what is not God / Bhagawan / Paramatma' giving quotes from Gita only.
This is a serious study, not a ritual.
Thanks to the Sadhakas who responded and as they haven't quoted what was required, their responses have been replied duly (in RED below).
The Gita - Talk Moderators are REQUESTED TO HELP is finding the truth in 700 verses of Gita. This study has the purpose of linking verse 19 chapter 7 with verse 66 chapter 18.
Ram Ram. Vineet, Sarvottam
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-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Taking a lead from Shrikant Joshi regards 7:12 Bhagavad
Geeta, 7:14 says:-
Verily this divine illusion of Mine made up of the qualities (of Nature) is difficult to cross over; those who take refuge in me alone cross over this illusion.

Thus if the question is what is not GOD, Illusions, are not God, thus everything is GOD.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
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Dear Sadaks,
(chapter 16 wrt the "asuri" nature souls. Hence although Paramatma exists in all and in everything, however, to the ignorant ones He does not exist, for they don't "assume/accept" so !) says a sadak. Even in ignorant ones HE exists, but the ignorance is the cause to uncover Bagavan in his mind.
In ADHARMA "NOT GOD"
B.Sathyanarayan
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Namaste.

There does not exist anything that is "NOT GOD / BHAGAVAN / PARAMATMA".

Here are a few verses from Gita that demonstrate this:

I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation.

I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus.

The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable.

(As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna!   Gita 9-16 to 19

Gita 9-19 is of particular importance, in that Bhagavan tells that He is immortal life and He is inevitable death. He is the manifest temporary, physical creation and at the same time He is the unmanifest eternal, invisible creation.

Since He patronises all, the Supreme Lord is pitaham the father. Since He comprehends all the needs of everything in creation He is the matah or mother. Since He is superior to even Prajapati who designed and constructed the worlds, he is pitamahah the grandsire . Since He is the ultimate abode of all, He is sthanam the basis of all. Since He is the protector of all, He is suhrt the dear most friend.

He is the root cause for the manifestation of existence, He is the avyayam bijam the imperishable seed. Since periodically He terminates all life, He is pralaya the dissolution concluding the end cycle for all created beings as mrtyuh or inevitable death. He is also certainly amritam or immortal and resides within the body sustaining life and distancing death. The Shabda Nirnaya states that: Since the Supreme Lord Krishna possesses in full all auspicious attributes and qualities, He is sat or the eternal unmanifest spirit sat because there is nothing independent from to Him and He is asat as well because there is independent from Him.

In other words, HE IS EVERYTHING, NOTHING IS "NOT OF HIM."

And, in Chapter 10 - 19 to 39, He provides more attributes of Himself:

I shall speak to thee now, O best of the Kurus, of My divine attributes, according to their prominence; there is no end to the particulars of My manifestation.

I am the Self, O Gudâkesha, existent in the heart of all beings; I am the beginning, the middle, and also the end of all beings.

Of the Adityas, I am Vishnu; of luminaries, the radiant Sun; of the winds, I am Marichi; of the asterisms, the Moon.

I am the Sâma-Veda of the Vedas, and Vâsava (Indra) of the gods; of the senses I am Manas, and intelligence in living beings am I.

And of the Rudras I am Sankara, of the Yakshas and Râkshasas the Lord of wealth (Kuvera), of the Vasus I am Pâvaka, and of mountains, Meru am I.

And of priests, O son of Prithâ, know Me the chief, Brihaspati; of generals, I am Skanda; of bodies of water, I am the ocean.

Of the great Rishis I am Bhrigu; of words I am the one syllable "Om"; of Yajnas I am the Yajna of Japa (silent repetition); of immovable things the Himâlaya.

Of all trees (I am) the Ashvattha, and Nârada of Deva-Rishis; Chitraratha of Gandharvas am I, and the Muni Kapila of the perfected ones.

Know Me among horses as Uchchaisshravas, Amrita-born; of lordly elephants Airâvata, and of men the king.

Of weapons I am the thunderbolt, of cows I am Kâmadhuk; I am the Kandarpa, the cause of offspring; of serpents I am Vâsuki.

And Ananta of snakes I am, I am Varuna of water-beings; and Aryaman of Pitris I am, I am Yama of controllers.

And Prahlâda am I of Diti's progeny, of measurers I am Time; and of beasts I am the lord of beasts, and Garuda of birds.

Of purifiers I am the wind, Râma of warriors am I; of fishes I am the shark, of streams I am Jâhnavi (the Ganges).

Of manifestations I, am the beginning, the middle and also the end; of all knowledges I am the knowledge of the Self, and Vâda of disputants.

Of letters the letter A am I, and Dvandva of all compounds; I alone am the inexhaustible Time, I the Sustainer (by dispensing fruits of actions) All-formed.

And I am the all-seizing Death, and the prosperity of those who are to be prosperous; of the feminine qualities (I am) Fame, Prosperity (or beauty), Inspiration, Memory, Intelligence, Constancy and Forbearance.

Of Sâmas also I am the Brihat-Sâma, of metres Gâyatri am I; of months I am Mârgashirsha, of seasons the flowery season.
I am the gambling of the fraudulent, I am the power of the powerful; I am victory, I am effort, I am Sattva of the Sâttvika.

Of the Vrishnis I am Vâsudeva; of the Pândavas, Dhananjaya; and also of the Munis I am Vyâsa; of the sages, Ushanas the sage.

Of punishers I am the sceptre; of those who seek to conquer, I am statesmanship; and also of things secret I am silence, and the knowledge of knowers am I.


And whatsoever is the seed of all beings, that also am I, O Arjuna. There is no being, whether moving or unmoving, that can exist without Me.
Ram Ram,
Deosaran Bisnath

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om


Sadhak Swarupaji ! Welcome! Thoughts are output of a machine called "mind" which is part of body which in turn is part of Prakruti (Nature). They arise based on bhavas (inner sentiments) , which in turn depend upon "ego" (me and mine) of the Jeeva. A change in ego (karta) changes the "bhavas" ! Hence we should not attribute everything to God. God has also given us "viveka" - power to discriminate as well as "independence" to function. Though , ultimately, both inert and sentient belong to Him only, but a sadhak may well draw a distinction first between the two, so that he may renounce inert and establish himself into sentient. Hence it is better that a sadhak presumes that thoughts are not caused by Paramatma as that means wrongly that a human is not independent. God is a disinterested witness most of the time, like self (soul) in a Jeeva! God interferes only upon certain circumstances (e g surrender, bhakta wholly dependent upon Him etc) only. Otherwise, gunas interplay !! All actions/thoughts etc take place in nature only! Both God and Jeeva are beyond Nature!


You may therefore consider that God is "residing" in thoughts but is not "causing" the thoughts. Gunas only are getting consumed in Gunas as ego, intellect, body, mind etc including thoughts, are only part of Prakruti (Gunas) and arise and end in prakruti only.

Jai Shree Krishna


Vyas N B

-------------------------------------------------

In response to the message # 2816, I would like to respond as follows;

Arjuna realises that Lord Krishna is indeed an incarnation of the Lord Vishnu and as per verse 43 of chapter 11, Arjuna continues adoration of the Lord by eulogising, "You are the father of the world of the moving as well as the unmoving. You are the sole idol of the worship and its venerable teacher. None is equal to you. How then could there be anyone greater than you in these three worlds, O Lord of incomparable greatness."

As the Lord Vishnu pervades the entire Universe, there is hardly anything that is not God.

(ANS:  the verse doesn't speak of 'what is NOT God' )  /  VS

However, please refer verse 12 from chapter 7 from Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has asserted that, "Whatever natures that are Saattvika (purity), Raajasika (passion) and Taamasika (indolence) – these certainly know as from Me alone; I am not in them but they are in Me."      (ANS:    In verse 12 chapter 7 Shree Krishna said 'neither they are in me nor am I in them' and you mistakenly say 'but they are in Me') / VS.

Lord Krishna uses `Me' to mean himself as the personification of the Brahman, in the human form.

Please also refer verse 25 from chapter 7 from Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has asserted that, "Veiled by My creative power (Yoga-Maayaa) I am not revealed to all. This bewildered world knows Me not, the unborn, the unchanging."

(ANS: this verse is about Bhagawaan, not about What is NOT Bhagwaan'.) / VS

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi

-----------------------------------------------

God is everything and everything is in God.   Entire Gita is full of such quotes.
Basudeb Sen

(ANS:  vague statement. please give actual quotes about 'what is NOT Bhagwaan'. ) / VS
-----------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Such a Q does not arise and should not arise, at the outset. "Mattah parataram naanyat kinchidasti ...." (7:7) - "There is nothing else besides Me, like clusters of yarn beads, formed by knots on a thread, all this is threaded on Me " (7/7)  "sadsacchahamarjun"  "I am Neing and Non Being both" etc. "To find out" - What and Why ?

Since the Q has been raised hence the answer can only be one. For one who does not "accept" that God is in all and in everything, the God does not exist FOR him in all and in everything. Exactly therefore then various verses in Gita particularly in Chapter 16 emanate , e g "mamatma pardeheshu pradvishanto ..." etc in chapter 16 wrt the "asuri" nature souls. Hence although Paramatma exists in all and in everything, however, to the ignorant ones He does not exist, for they don't "assume/accept" so !

In essence it is all a matter of "acceptance" by individual embodied souls and not of "reality"- for in reality the answer is known !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

(ANS:  Reverand Sadhaka, the question was what Gita says about 'what is not GOD/BHAGAWAAN/PARAMAATMAA'? and not about asuri human or non acceptance or acceptance of God. please quote actual verses which say about 'WHAT IS NOT GOD?' this is a serious study, not a ritual.) / VS
-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

A GOD'S DEVOTTEE feels,WHEN EVERY THING IS GOD AND ALL IS GOD, THEN WHY DESIRE TEMPORARY WORLDLY THINGS? DESIRE ONLY GOD THEN , WHO IS ONLY PERMANENT.IT IS GOD WHO HAS COMPELLED this tiny devotee to think in this way. THIS FEELINGS ALSO IS GIVEN BY THE ALLMIGHTY ONLY.
JAI MAA KALI
HARE KRISHNA

"Swarupa Chakraborty"

(ANS:   Reverand Sadhaka, question was What Gita says about 'WHAT IS NOT GOD?'. Please give actual quotations that say about 'what is not God?'. this is serious study, not a ritual.) / VS
-------------------------------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER
1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant to
Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take up
spiritual path
2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study
3. Only one question at a time.
4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim
of deeper understanding of Gita.


GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -
1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.
2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.
3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they
further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.
5. Focus on subject at hand only.
6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address
etc) or personalize message to particular person
7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify
the posting.
8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit
the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
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[gita-talk] Sharing Our Daily Experience of Life

 

Priy Sadhaks
How about sharing our daily experience of life like we share daily one verse of gitaji.
Kindly elaborate.
Raja Gurdasani

-----------------------------------
Shree Hari   Ram Ram 
Kindly connect with Gitaji wherever possible.  Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram
-----------------------------------


GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER
1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant to
Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take up
spiritual path
2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study
3. Only one question at a time.
4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim
of deeper understanding of Gita.


GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -
1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.
2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible.
3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they
further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.
5. Focus on subject at hand only.
6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address
etc) or personalize message to particular person
7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify
the posting.
8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit
the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
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[gita-talk] Re: Bhagavad Gita - Chapter 3 - Questions and Insights from Daily Verse

 

CURRENT  POSTING

Gita 3/17

Real work of Human Being starts after being established in Self. Till that time,
it was Shubh mixed with Shudhha or a mixture of good and pure depending upon the
level of purity. In the Pure State, he or she emits enourmous alpha waves by
which peace and bliss are transmitted to those working towards Spiritual
Progress. Such persons are rare but they are the salt of the earth.
Jayantilal Shah

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

Re: BG 3:17

I have written in the past also and I am again writing that it is a wrong statement to say that "mind" gets "established" in Self. It is a clear Gita verdict that Self is beyond Prakruti. Mind is a part of Prakruti, hence it does not "rest" or "reaches" Self at all- it CANNOT. It simply becomes optionless as it loses interest in the world on one hand and it cant reach Self on other hand. Hence it pacifies ! It becomes SHAANT !! Yes, its focus (adhatsva- 12:8)  is towards Divine/ Self but it cant reach there.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gita 3/17 Hari Om

Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! You have asked a good Q ! You may choose any one/some/all to be answering your Q:-

1 Mountains are also(demi) gods - hence it was one demi god vis a vis another.

2 Lord Krishna rules all demi Gods. These demi gods are, like human beings, have jeolosy, bias and vulnerability to anger, sense of insecurity etc etc. (You will find many instances in Scriptures of demi gods- particularly Indra-even trying to fail the austerities of tapasvis) A lesson was taught thus by Lord to Indra.

3 By ordering them to worship Goverdhana, Lord reminded the humans that mountains are also demi gods and should be equally respected. They give herbals , medicines, rivers, to the creatures and protection from furies of nature.

4 Lord's ways and means and His Leela is divine.

5 By ordering to worship Goverdhana means- "also" worship it, in addition to Indra. This order in no way means that "Duty" towards them or any individual demi god is ordered to be stopped. "Parasparam Bhavyantah" continues to be a cardinal principle.

6 BG 3:14/15 further confirm what I stated ( "I" means- always as understood by me from Swamiji's interpretation of Gita. )

7 "Parasparam Bhavyantah" is not only applicable between humans and demi gods; but is also applies to mankind interse; and demi gods interse.

8 If men do not perform their duty, there is commotion not only among the gods but in the entire universe. Here there was a conflict of interest among demi gods too- mountain and rain gods.

And so on.

Shri Jayantilalji Shah ! Whatever I write is mostly as understood by me from Swamiji's purports on Gita. Hence real entitlement and glory is with Him . I am merely a translator, presenter. Still thanks. You are right. Unless you take "yagna" to mean "performance of duty"- many verses of Gitaji will not get satisfactorily understood. It is 100 percent correct interpretation. There can not be any other meaning of "yagna" (sacrifice) than "performance of one's duty" !! Duty means- What you can do, and what you should do !!

Pranaams to both of you.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Lord Krishna also summarized the essence of God-realization (BP 2.09.32-35)
as follows:

                The Supreme Lord Krishna said: One who wants to know Me, the
Supreme Personality of Godhead, should only understand that I existed before
creation, I exist in the creation, as well as after complete dissolution.
Any other existence is nothing but My illusory energy (Maya). I exist within
the creation and at the same time outside the creation. I am the
all-pervading Supreme Lord who exists everywhere, in everything, and at all
times.

I could not find in any epic the lord is saying "I Am God." God can not say
himself as GOD but  Sri Krishna in the Mahabharat, he always made the effort to try to prove so, but such proving is not appropriate coming from God.   (ko Mahabharat mein  hamesa apne aap ko God sabit karne ka prayas kiya, yeh bate kisi tarah bhi bhagban ko shobha
nahi deta).   What is need for  GOD to prove himself as a GOD.  

Ranjankumar

Shree Hari   Ram Ram 

Ranjanji,  What is this BP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gita 3/16
Respected All,
 
Please allow me to submit my views :
 
Mike Keenor: My only respectful critism is that maybe by some means, you could, Shrikantji, reduce the verbosity of your posts, I am sure it can be achieved.
 
Dear Mike ji, frankly speaking I read each and every word written by Joshi ji though I am a lethargic type of person. Kindly allow Shri Joshi ji to main his natural flow. There is  no foul smell of ego in his commentaries, without any pretentions.
 
Srikant Joshi: I am an open minded person. If the majority of members of Yahoo Group `Gita-Talk' want me to delete references to such extraneous things, then please let me know. On the other hand, if my above explanation is adequate, then let us continue this divine journey.
 
Respected Joshi ji, you are doing a great Sewa (duty, selfless service) to the humanity in general and to 20000 members of this Divine Forum in particular, by giving scientific references. I humbly request you to continue this trend. May I quote Albert Einstein : Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind.
 
Kindly continue with your natural scientific and spiritual flavour. Some people complain because the roses have thorns, others give thanks because the throns have roses.
 
With my head in your lotus feet,
Greatfully yours,
Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------------------------------------------------
Ref:  Gita 3/16
Hari Om

Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! You have asked a good Q ! You may choose any one/some/all to be answering your Q:-

1 Mountains are also(demi) gods - hence it was one demi god vis a vis another.

2 Lord Krishna rules all demi Gods. These demi gods are, like human beings, have jeolosy, bias and vulnerability to anger, sense of insecurity etc etc. (You will find many instances in Scriptures of demi gods- particularly Indra-even trying to fail the austerities of tapasvis) A lesson was taught thus by Lord to Indra.

3 By ordering them to worship Goverdhana, Lord reminded the humans that mountains are also demi gods and should be equally respected. They give herbals , medicines, rivers, to the creatures and protection from furies of nature.

4 Lord's ways and means and His Leela is divine.  Hence why God did a particular thing at a particular time is beyond our comprehension. But definitely Lord did not mean that worship one demi god and not another. The verse of Gita is a universal law. "Parasparam Bhavyantah" - signifies the way in which the creation operates. Hence Govardhan issue does not in any way renders this verse to be conditional or subjective. There have always been conflicts among demi gods also. They are not vastly superior to humans.Upon expiry of their tenures, they must become humans again. Lord controls them also, as He controls us.

5 By ordering to worship Goverdhana means- "also" worship it, in addition to Indra. This order in no way means that "Duty" towards them or any individual demi god is ordered to be stopped. "Parasparam Bhavyantah" continues to be a cardinal principle.

6 BG 3:14/15 further confirm what I stated ( "I" means- always as understood by me from Swamiji's interpretation of Gita. )

7 "Parasparam Bhavyantah" is not only applicable between humans and demi gods; but is also applies to mankind interse; and demi gods interse.

8 If men do not perform their duty, there is commotion not only among the gods but in the entire universe. Here there was a conflict of interest among demi gods too- mountain and rain gods.

And so on.

Shri Jayantilalji Shah ! Whatever I write is mostly as understood by me from Swamiji's purports on Gita. Hence real entitlement and glory is with Him . I am merely a translator, presenter. Still thanks. You are right. Unless you take "yagna" to mean "performance of duty"- many verses of Gitaji will not get satisfactorily understood. It is 100 percent correct interpretation. There can not be any other meaning of "yagna" (sacrifice) than "performance of one's duty" !! Duty means- What you can do, and what you should do !!

Pranaams to both of you.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------------------------------------------

In response to post # 2868 dated 18th July, I would like to respond as follows;

Dear Niteesh,

Thank you for your kind words. God bless you and your near and dear ones.

I would like to answer to you question "How do the manufactured products help in improving the flora and fauna?" as follows;

Have you noticed that the outcome of agricultural efforts is subject to vagaries of the monsoon especially in India? An ordinary farmer puts in his best efforts but leaves outcome to the wishes of the Almighty God. On the contrary, the outcome of manufacturing activities can be quantified and predicted by proper industrial engineering analysis. This leads to the sense of `Kartaa Aham' i.e. ego in industrial blue and white collared workers.

In the modern environment, we need to amalgamate both the agro-based economy as well as industrially manufactured goods based economy as complimentary efforts. For an example, construction of dams and irrigation canals is of immense help to agriculture. The utilisation of industrially manufactured fertilizers improves the overall agricultural yield.

With the advent of molecular biology, genetically modified foods are helping in the efforts of the sustainace of millions of the poor and needy ones in the world.

If you recollect, about 40 years ago, certain vegetables like Caulis-flower, Green peas etc. could be grown only in winter, now with advanced scientific means they are grown round the year. With genetically modified seeds, the Japanese have developed a technique to grow water-melons in the shape of a cube, which greatly simplifies surface transportation of them without any wastage.

Therefore, the manufactured products do help in improving the flora and fauna in the world.

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

THANKS, JAISHREE KRISHNA, (BOL MUKH SEY) 

ashok khiara

=================================================
Gita 3-14
 
Dear Joshiji,
 
I really apreciate your great effort in projecting Gitaji's divine principles into the current and so called the modern environment.
 
Could you please elborate "how does the the manufactured products help in improving the flora and fauna" as you mentioned in the following sentence.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wherever agricultural and manufactured products are found in plenty, there exists exuberance of life as flora i.e. all types of plants as well as fauna i.e. all kinds of creatures, birds, animals and human beings.
----------------------------------------------------------------
 
Thanks & Best Regards!
Niteesh
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Mr. Vyas. I was a little hesitant to share my own interpretation on
this verse. Your favourable observation has given me courage. Meaning of Yagnya
as Duty is very pragmatic. I never thought that way. With humble regards.
Jayantilal Shah

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Sri Vyasji says,"The collective power of the same causes rains etc on the planet. Demi Gods get pleased and shower their grace when humans reciprocate by "performance of duties" !

Then why did Sri Krishna told people at Virndavan to pray Govardhan mountain and NOT to pray Indra demi God.?
Jai Sri Krishna

Baiya Sathyanarayan

------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr.Srikant Joshi
Thank you very much for your response. Bringing examples from outside tells connectedness of this world. It helps one to connect with individuals unconditionally. It is also confirms that we do not speak anything new as Gita says.
Pranams
Veena Hassan
-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear friends,

We would like to know the period when "Bhagavat Gita" was compiled.

Why it is called as "Vedanta"?

Who is the first,who explained Bhagavata Gita and Popularize it among the people.

As a Household person,which holy book  to be  followed?

I will be very grate full ,if the information on the above is given to all members for their

knowledge.

Thanks

Om

Rajeev

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Rajeevji,  Many of these answer you can obtain by doing a quick web search.  As sewa to the group, could you please do so and provide the answers to the rest of the group.   Whatever is unanswered,  the sadhaks can fill in the gaps for you. 

Thank you in advance,  Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram 

--------------------------------------------------------
 
 


 

Hari Om

The messages of Jayantilalji Shah are indeed divine. Welcome, Sir ! This Satsanga forum is getting more and more divine with every passing day. Grace of Paramatma and Swamiji over this forum is clearly visible.

"Parasparam Bhavyantah" - is the key to sustain continuity of this creation. If every body does his duty , this is automatically achieved. Sadhaks may note that the word "yagna" in Gita means - DUTY ! Duty is not limited to mere "sacrificial fire" / "homa" etc. It is simple , straight forward- performance of prescribed duties by each individual. The collective power of the same causes rains etc on the planet. Demi Gods get pleased and shower their grace when humans reciprocate by "performance of duties" !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh, Namaste!

I cannot possibly talk for Shrikant Joshiji; thus I can only reflect upon the
use of things such as science, quotes of people outside,(which is an oxymoron I
suppose), of the world of Gitaji.

There are 20000 people out there, as I see it Shrikantji is performing a double
task, a bhashya on the Bhagavad Gita, but also catching the attention of those
that are not fully familier or understand its significants to the world of
today.
(i.e. Not just preaching to the converted)

My only respectful critism is that maybe by some means, you could, Shrikntji,
reduce the verbosity of your posts, I am sure it can be achieved.

With Respects and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------------------------------------

In response to post #2836, I would like to respond as follows;


Dear Dr. Ranjeet Singh,


I welcome your observations and critical comments. I certainly respect your point of view. However, I would like to submit my perspective, which I request you to kindly consider.


The first English translation of the Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta was published in the year 1785 by the distinguished Orientalist, Sir Charles Wilkins, under the authority of the Court of Directors of the then East India Company of which he was a Senior Merchant, at the recommendation of Sir Warren Hastings, the then Governor General of India. During his tenure of office, Sir Warren Hastings was indefatigable in encouraging all British public servants to master the native Indian languages, including Sanskrit, in order that they might better understand the sacred scriptures and in turn become better equipped to rule the Indian populace.


Since then a number of scholars have written commentaries in English on Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta. However, most of them are meant for those, who already possess some rudimentary knowledge of Sanskrit language and have some exposure to ancient philosophies of India. However, for those who are uninitiated and yet are interested in learning Bhagawad Geeta in baby steps, at their own comfort and convenience, there are very few avenues open to them that are in the public domain. I am indeed grateful to `Gita-Talk' Moderators for creating a forum in the public domain, where everyone is encouraged to participate and contribute. Of course, there are differences of opinions in various interactions. Even our hand has five fingers, which are not identical and yet collectively they perform multiple tasks.

In India today, Sanskrit language study is taken up by very few students. One of the primary reasons is that there are no job opportunities after studying Sanskrit language. Naturally, maximum students turn to Science & Technology, Commerce and Arts in the descending order of preference. Even I went to engineering with the belief that I will be able to secure a job and in turn relieve my family from poverty, malnutrition and ignorance. This is the reality of life.

In the rat race of degrees, jobs and plum salaries, what I have noticed is that we are slowly but certainly losing our `Sattva' i.e. the very essence of leading a meaningful life. Therefore, I have taken up a cause of bringing the universal treasure trove of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta to one and all in the contemporary language and reference points.

Now, in order to respond to your questions: Are we not satisfied with Bhagawan Shri Krishna? Are His words not sufficient for us? - I have the following humble submissions to make.

1. Lord Krishna's divine song is indeed sufficient as long as one can understand precise meaning of every word in Sanskrit language in different contexts, accompanied by `Viveka ChudamaNi', the commentary of Aadya Shankaraachaarya in Sanskrit language. But this is not applicable to the vast majority of Sadhakas. In that case, what alternative solutions can be offered to them?

2. The starting point of modern science is `A-Shraddhaa' i.e. non belief whereas the starting point of religious studies is `Shraddhaa' i.e. belief. Unless anything can be proven and demonstrated as an irrefutable and conclusive proof or evidence, no student of science will ever accept concepts of `the Aatman' and `the Brahman'. In that case, one has to take a resort to a simile that even though Electrical Energy cannot be shown, still one acknowledges the effects of it in its various forms. Being a student of Science & Technology, I find this as an interesting quest.

3. There is a misconception that only retired people take up study of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, as they have nothing else to do. Similarly there is a misconception that only those who renunciate a normal family life take up study of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta as an escape route to abdicate the responsibilities. Therefore, it is necessary to illustrate the concepts in Geeta in contemporary context using contemporary language and to demonstrate that these misconceptions are null and void.

I hope and trust that this brings in a unique flavour to a commentary as not many have adopted this approach, which I try to the best of my abilities and knowledge.

Finally, my firm belief is that every a student of science & technology must regard the knowledge offered in Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, even though it does not pass the test of scientific inquiry, scrutiny and proof in the form of irrefutable, conclusive and repetitively demonstratable evidence.


There are many concepts in Bhagawad Geeta like "Atman", "Brahman" and "Rebirth" which cannot be proven in the form of irrefutable, conclusive and repetitively demonstratable evidences. For that matter, the definitions of "energy in Physics" and "infinity in Mathematics" are also abstract concepts. No one can show "Electricity" but everyone accepts the phenomenon of electricity. Yet these concepts are accepted to be the very basis of modern science and technology. In a similar manner, the concept of "Gunateeta i.e. beyond description in words" is to be treated as the very concept of the God. Therefore, everyone ought to study Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta.


5. The annual Templeton Prize (of 1 million British Sterling Pounds prize money) honors a living person who has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life's spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery, or practical works. It is very interesting to note that majority of the winners have been science students.


I am an open minded person. If the majority of members of Yahoo Group `Gita-Talk' want me to delete references to such extraneous things, then please let me know. On the other hand, if my above explanation is adequate, then let us continue this divine journey.

Dear Mike Keenor,

Thank you for your kind and resonating words. There are many examples of selfless service even in the western world. As an example, Sir Alexander Fleming, the inventor of penicillin refused to patent it and amass wealth. He offered it to every needy patient, without overcharging them. Dr. James Clerk Maxwell, the great Mathematician and Physicist used to take extra coaching classes of poor and needy students free of charge. It was against the traditional conventions of the Cambridge University in the United Kingdom.

Whenever, I come across the works of such outstanding personalities, I always remember verse 41 of chapter 10 in Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta.

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi

--------------------------------------------

THANKS, (JAISHREE KRISHNA, BOL MUKH SEY)   

ashok khiara

==================================

PRIOR POSTING

Gita 3-12

-Shree Hari-

Dear Shrikant Joshi, Namaste!

If in the country where I live, if  society as a whole could grasp this truth "the spirit of Yagna (sacrifice)" , oh how wonderful it would be.
The western world has gone through a period where 'Greed is good!', look where
that's got us.
I personally have trouble in dealing with how people have been cruelly
exploited, so that the so called elite societies can prosper.
Let people look into the eyes of a starving child, or a homeless person on a
winters night. And with the help of Divine Grace let them look at there own
hearts, that they maybe broken.

Your comments bouncing off modern society, shows the timeless quality of Gitaji.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

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Gita 3-12

Respected Joshijee,

Why do you bring in Science and extraneous things in your bhaashya on Gita? What
have they to do with it? Why do we need Herbert J Taylor, Horace Greely, Prophet
Mohammed and Human Rights Commission to understand Gita? Are we not satisfied
with Bhagawan Shri Ktrishna? Are His words not sufficient for us?

Dr. Ranjeet Singh

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Gita 3-10I am very fond of these couplets since my student days.I worked out my owninterpretation which is as under:Bi-polar enegy of the Universe - cosmic intelligence - which gives rise to 8.4million species under favourable circumstances is the meaning of the wordPrajapati.Frogs and snakes are produced to eat bacteria and water in stagnantwater pools during monsoon so that eco balance is maitained. Mam yonihimahadbrhma verse 3/14 supports this view.Out of all these species,it is only during human birth that the work ofcorrecting defilements and dissolving ego can be performed and this is themeaning of the word Sahayagna i.e.Praja has been created to carry on the YagnaKarya of the nature; sahayagna for other species is for maintaining ecologicalbalance and the human beings for working out liberation.Same cosmic intelligence wanted this work to progress; so it ordained that bymating of the male and female,you multiply so that those who want to develope inthis evolutionary cycle can take birth.Both male and female together and with the help of each other they are thenordained to remove defilements like Hatred,Greed,Arrogance etc. and unfolddivinity and in turn all divine forces of the universe will help you in thework. Recognise this complimentary nature of Human effort and Divine helpi.e.parasparam bhavyantah, be grateful and humble and in consequence obtainUltimate Blissful State - one without change.I have a satisfactory married life in which constant remebrance of this versehas made immense contribution. Also it reaffirms our faith in this most originalscripture that by following the dictates of this verse, even a householder canachieve the highest goal of liberation.Jayantilal Shah-----------------------------------------------
Gita 3/9

I come from Jain tradition. Gandhiji's influence on Gujerat and his affirmation
that Bhagvad-Geeta and Tulsi-krit Ramayana had deep impressions in his mental
and behavioural pattern, inspired me and many others to take  to the study of
Bhagvad-Geeta. The highest Yagna for us is the progressive dissolution of Ego
system represented by negative enegy manifested in the form of Hatred,Greed
Arrogance etc. while performing our daily routine of relations in the family and
organisation of Business.
Greatest pollutant is Ego and practice of 26 divine qualities as mentioned at
the beginning of Chapter 16 of the text becomes Yagnarthah Karmanah. No doubt
action has an attachment but gracefully accepting the results of action without
blaming outside agency either by way of individuals or situations makes action
come nearer to the spirit of  this verse i.e. Muktasangah.
My humble salutation to this Holy Scripture.
Jayantilal Shah

 

 

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PRIOR POSTING

Namaste.

In Gita 3:9 and 3:10 Bhagavan Sri Krishan urges us to perform action for sacrifice and tells us of the Prajapati creating mankind:

The mankind is bound by actions other than those performed for the sake of sacrifice (Yajna); therefore, O son of Kunti (Arjuna), perform action for sacrifice (Yajna) sake, and without attachment."


The Prajapati (The Creator), having in the beginning of Creation created mankind, together with sacrifices, said, by this shall you prosper; letthis be the milch-cow of your desire. Bhagavad Gita 3:9, 10

 

The Eternal Sacrifice of God is indeed one of the most fascinating themes in the mystic lore of all great religions. In Hindu religious thought, this theme is woven around the Sacrifice of Prajapati, the Lord of all creatures.

Writing on this subject, C. Jinarajadasa says in his essay entitled The Eternal Sacrifice of God as follows:
"they say in ancient Hindu tradition that Prajapati, the Lord of all creatures, before creation began, voluntarily laid himself down on the altar to be slain, for it was only by His being so slain that creation would become in existence.
He called upon His elder children, the Great Angels, and He laid Himself down upon the altar. According to His command, they dismembered and slew Divinity, and by the death of the God, by his martyrdom and sacrifice, came the Creation of the universe.We are told that it is only because God, in the beginning of time, so died to His full and free nature, that you and I have our separate individual existences.

In Hindu tradition, man is asked to bring the dismembered pasts of God together and resurrect Him. While in the Christian tradition the resurrection of God is looked upon as a miracle performed by God Himself, in Hinduism the resurrection of God is a miracle to be performed by Man. This is possible only when man engages himself in sacrifices that out of the dismemberment of man, as man, there takes place the miracle of the resurrection of God Himself.


The Sacrifice of God is an ever-continuing process: The Eternal, the all permeating, is ever present in sacrifice. Since the Eternal is ever present in sacrifice, it is in sacrifice and here alone that one can commune with it. Sacrifice is to engage oneself in Action, an
Action to which one is a witness. To be a witness to one's own Action this verily is the injunction of the Teacher to His disciple.


Bhagavan Sri Krishna, out of compassion for His people and with a view to protecting them, lifts up Mount Govardhana, and balances it on His little finger. Seeing this the cowherds, and companions of Sri Krishna, lift up their sticks so as to help Sri Krishna in keeping aloft the mount Govardhana. Here we see the merging of the little streams of man’s sacrifice in the Great Sea of the sacrifice of God Himself. The dismembered Godhead must find His resurrection in man â€" and this happens only when man engages himself in sacrifice â€" in action that is free from all attachment
As the ignorant act from attachment to action, O Bharata, so should the wise act without attachment.


Very often, sacrifice is understood to be Duty. Surely, where the necessity to act is present there, the action is polluted, by attachment. It is action, free from all necessity, and, therefore spontaneous, which alone can be called action without attachment. But what is this action without attachment? Can there be an action without an actor? If the actor disappears then who is it that acts?

These are questions of deep metaphysical import but the answers are simple. He who knows the nature of properties and the modes of their functioning is free from attachment in all that he does. If only man would allow nature to work in a free and unfettered manner he would save himself from many a complexity of life. It is man’s interference with nature that creates the problem of good and evil.


Man comes to the scene of creation with the egoistic notion of being a subduer of Nature.
However, man’s true role is to be a collaborator with Nature. To anticipate the movement of Nature and then to allow Nature to work in a free and unfettered manner along that path â€" this truly is the destiny of man. And, this indeed, is non-attachment, the action without attachment.


Bhagavan Himself is under no necessity to act â€" and yet He engages Himself in action. This is indeed the Great Sacrifice of the Supreme for the sustenance of the world. The whole world would perish if the Creator were to bring to an end His Great Sacrifice.

It is said that Bhagavan created Man in His own image. If this be so then man too must act in His own image. If this be so then man too must act in the likeness of His Creator. Man can indeed be a collaborator of God â€" but for this he must link up his sacrifice with the Great Sacrifice of God Himself. Man must collaborate with him in the sustenance of the world.

Ram Ram
Deosaran Bisnath
----------------------------------------------------------------
 
Gita 3/8
 
Dear Sadaks,
All of us know that we are performing actions. Also know that some
actions are good and most are bad. Then what is causing us to do so? If
we know that cause and effect of action seriously, then alone we will be
in right path. Eg: Cheating is bad action. Speaking truth is good
action. But we do this or that. But in today world we want to know, how
and when the result is given. Everything is instant today. Instant
cash/coffee, instant marriage and divorce. So it needs to know that
exact extent of damage we cause in our wrong actions. Upraise this, and
sadaks will improve well.
B.Sathyanarayan
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gita 3/8
Expalnation of Mr. Shrikant Joshi on this verse is very apt. It reflects the
central tone of Geeta starting with verses like Yogasthah Kuru Karmani.....
Verse 2/48 and running right through the text upto Sahajam Karma Kauntaya
.........Verse18/48 which is already quoted by Mr.Joshi..In fact this verse and
many other such verses,distinguish Bhagvad-Geeta from other Hindu Scriptures and
also from practices evolved from other traditions which originated from India.
It does not denounce them; but it carries a certain and definite message that
Swe Swe Karmani Abhiratah, Sansidhhim Labhate Narah Verse 45/18. It is a great
assurance to Householders that even while performing your own duties properly
and with dedication,we householders can be liberated. Actual Examples are the
Bhakta who while serving the parents,asks Lord to 'wait' by giving him a
Brick.Janabai and many others.
Gandhiji led the Freedom Movement for almost 40 years on the strength of this
verse which slowly unfolds many other parameters chapter by chapter ending with
Verse46/18 which reads as: Yatah Pravruttihi Bhutanam,Yen Sarvam Idam Tatam;
Swakarmana tam Abhyacharya,Sidhim Vindati Manavah.
Jayantilal Shah
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Hari Om

Dear Brother Mike ! "Conscience" ( Antarartma- Viveka) ! What exists ultimately ? Prakruti or Purusha? Does not God say in so many words in Holy Gita that He is "sans" organs (ears/eyes/nose etc) and still hears , sees , smells etc ? "Brain dead" means ego/intellect/mind/body/ jad/inert dead" not "self/conscience/soul/ chetan/sentient dead" I need not quote Gita verses to Brother Mike ! That is the state described by you ! When He wills He leaves clues ! Sadhaks pick them, ponder, and move forward !!!

As simple as that !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
------------------------------------------------------------------
Jai Hanuman

Mike Bhaiyya ! Do not poor scientists need some base or insights to build upon ? Who would give them the same? Sentient or Inert ?

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear sadaks,
"I AM OF GOD ONLY AND ONLY GOD IS MINE." said a sadak. Can we say "We are for God and God is for us. Why not remove "I" and "mine"

Sri Mikeji posting on Brain operation case. Sometimes when man gets hurt on head, he gains ESP power, or the person looses whole of past. Besides it is said in script, that when a man dies, he is able see his own body lying without movement. It takes few minutes to realize the one is dead and his relatives are crying over body. Sri Adi Sankara mastered making brain dead and again making active. This is there in the scrip he wrote.
B.Sathyanarayan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


 
PRIOR POSTING

Gita 3/6

Hari Om

The message of GT Moderators is indeed Divine ! Sadhak Sanjeevani is a miraculous Treatise. One can't describe the peace which generates by just reading the Treatise.

The way in which even the Index has been made by Swamiji, the Links of previous verse , the Preface just everything about the Treatise has its own flavour; own fragrance and own Divinity. Just by reading - Dear Sadhaks you can get glipmpse of bliss. Your bhavas change. Your intellect stablises. Your mind/intellect/ego get first a shock, and them they become calm, serene and fully satisfied. As soon as doubt/query comes in mind, next para solves that coolly. Not a single contradiction can ever be found in Swamiji's purports from All Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Ramcharitmanas, Smritis and other Scriptures - Swamiji has extensively quoted them in His purports. It is only read to be believed. The english translation of Sadhak Sanjeevani book is also published by Gita Press only. But let me tell you that the translation by our Divine G T Moderators is VERY VERY NEAR to those sentiments which of course especially flow in Swamiji's divine Devnagree (Hindi) . I know English dictionary does not have correct representive words of many Hindi words.

Wishing you Divine Reading of Sadhak Sanjeevani, Dear Sadhaks !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gita 3/6

Namaste

An excellent explanation and commentary of what I consider to be an
extremely significant verse in Bhagavad Gita, one that points out the subtle
but unambiguous distinction between Sanyasa and Tyaga. between
Renunciation and Non-attachment, which is essentially that it is the
content of action that counts, not with the pattern of action. Gita emphasizes
the motive of action, not so much the manner of activity. Renunciation
deals with the outer pattern of behavior while Non-attachment is an inner,
a condition of mind. 

Bhagavan is alerting us to the occurrences of superficial displays of piousness
and devotion while harboring thoughts and desires of a worldly nature. Swami Chinmayananda had some strong words in his commentary on this verse:
"  To give physically a show of morality and ethics, while mentally living a
shameless life of low motives and foul sentiments, is the occupation of a
man who is not a seeker of spiritual fulfillment, but, as is termed here, a
self-deluded hypocrite! Certainly we all know that, even if we can
physically discipline ourselves, it is not easy for an average man to control
the sensuous tendencies at his mental level."

Man's spiritual nature is to be judged from the condition of his mind and
not from his demonstrable code of behavior. In fact, a really spiritual
man is unostentatious; there can never be a display or demonstration
in a life that is truly spiritual.  Any display, whether of material possessions
or of spiritual accomplishments is essentially vulgar. Surely there is
nothing more crude and vulgar than the display of one's so-called virtue.
Sadly, we observe so many who are well-intentioned but engage in
ostentatious displays and self-righteous proclamations of perceived
religious and spiritual superiority of themselves, their families and those
in the congregation.

The more one displays one's spiritual conduct, the less spiritual content
is there in the inner make-up of such an individual. Bhagavad Gita calls
such a man a hypocrite, a man of false conduct. Swami Prakashananda
once described it as religious arrogance.

We are humans, we err, we may not be doing this intentionally but it
becomes habitual and if not checked becomes a permanent part our
character and lifestyle. Bhagavan is telling us in this Gita 3-6 that in
spirituality, it is the condition of mind that matters, not the colour of
one's robe.

Ram Ram
Deosaran Bisnath

-------------------------------------------------------------------

ON GITA IN HINDI

narayan narayan

gita mein jitna bhav bhara hein, utna budhi mein nahi aata
jitna budhi mein aata hein , utna man mein nahi aata
jitna man mein aata hein, utna kahne mein nahi aata
jitna kahne mein aata hein, utna likhne mein nahi aata

Gita vlikshan hein kyoki esme upnishid, our brahm-sutra dono
ka tatpriya hein.  gita upnishdo ka saar hein sabhi darsan
gita ke antergat aate hein per gita kisi darshan ke antergat
nahi aati.
gita mein kisi mat ka agrah nahi hein  prtiyut keval jeev ke
kalyan ka agrah. matbhed gita mein nahi hein pratiyut tika-karo
mein hein.

sanshar raag ke karan dekhta hein, raag ke karan hi dushri satta
dekhti hein. raag nahi ho tho parmatma ke shiva kuch bhi nahi hein
sab kuch parmatma hi hein yeh "khule netro ka dhayan hein. jairamji ki.

[RAMCHANDRA ]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gita 3/3

Well said Shrikant ji,
except you cannot have Jnyana or Karma Yoga without Nishthaa in God.
 
So, there is no separation there between Jnyaana yoga, Karma yoga and Bhakti Yoga.
 
As per Swami Dayananda, Yoga means---Prema yaa, Bhakti-yaa ( with extreme devotion and love ) is such conviction ( Nishthaa) developed, otherwise you cannot accomplish either Jnyaana or Karma Yoga. There will only be Jnyaana ( knowledge)  of nature, or Action unto others, or self, without the love for the Divine, if Bhakti is not part of it. That is an inclusive and not an exclusive statement, and not separable as Bhakti Yoga ( a much later concept---developed by some individual, and not from Bhagwat Geeta ! ) .
 
Durgesh Mankikar,MD

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