Tuesday, June 30, 2009

[gita-talk] Re: WHAT IS NOT GOD / BHAGAWAN / PARAMATMA ?



Shree  Hari Ram Ram. 

Sadhakas are requested to state what Gita tells us about 'what is not God / Bhagawan / Paramatma' giving quotes from Gita only.

This is to find if there exists that which is "not God,"  If it ever exists.

Ram Ram. Vineet, Sarvottam 

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NEW POSTING

Shree  Hari: Ram Ram. 
Sadhakas were requested to state what Gita tells us about 'what is not God / Bhagawan / Paramatma' giving quotes from Gita only.
This is a serious study, not a ritual. 
Thanks to the Sadhakas who responded and as they haven't quoted what was required, their responses have been replied duly (in RED below).
The Gita - Talk Moderators are REQUESTED TO HELP is finding the truth in 700 verses of Gita. This study has the purpose of linking verse 19 chapter 7 with verse 66 chapter 18.
Ram Ram. Vineet, Sarvottam
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-Shree Hari-

Namaste!

Taking a lead from Shrikant Joshi regards 7:12 Bhagavad
Geeta, 7:14 says:-
Verily this divine illusion of Mine made up of the qualities (of Nature) is difficult to cross over; those who take refuge in me alone cross over this illusion.

Thus if the question is what is not GOD, Illusions, are not God, thus everything is GOD.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
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Dear Sadaks,
(chapter 16 wrt the "asuri" nature souls. Hence although Paramatma exists in all and in everything, however, to the ignorant ones He does not exist, for they don't "assume/accept" so !) says a sadak. Even in ignorant ones HE exists, but the ignorance is the cause to uncover Bagavan in his mind.
In ADHARMA "NOT GOD"
B.Sathyanarayan
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Namaste.

There does not exist anything that is "NOT GOD / BHAGAVAN / PARAMATMA".

Here are a few verses from Gita that demonstrate this:

I am the Kratu, I the Yajna, I the Svadhâ, I the Aushadham, I the Mantra, I the Ajyam, I the fire, and I the oblation. 

I am the Father of this world, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather; the Purifier, the (one) thing to be known, (the syllable) Om, and also the Rik, Sâman and Yajus. 

The Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the Refuge, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Substratum, the Storehouse, the Seed immutable.

(As sun) I give heat: I withhold and send forth rain; I am immortality and also death; being and non-being am I, O Arjuna!   Gita 9-16 to 19


Gita 9-19 is of particular importance, in that Bhagavan tells that He is immortal life and He is inevitable death. He is the manifest temporary, physical creation and at the same time He is the unmanifest eternal, invisible creation.

Since He patronises all, the Supreme Lord is pitaham the father. Since He comprehends all the needs of everything in creation He is the matah or mother. Since He is superior to even Prajapati who designed and constructed the worlds, he is pitamahah the grandsire . Since He is the ultimate abode of all, He is sthanam the basis of all. Since He is the protector of all, He is suhrt the dear most friend.

He is the root cause for the manifestation of existence, He is the avyayam bijam the imperishable seed. Since periodically He terminates all life, He is pralaya the dissolution concluding the end cycle for all created beings as mrtyuh or inevitable death. He is also certainly amritam or immortal and resides within the body sustaining life and distancing death. The Shabda Nirnaya states that: Since the Supreme Lord Krishna possesses in full all auspicious attributes and qualities, He is sat or the eternal unmanifest spirit sat because there is nothing independent from to Him and He is asat as well because there is independent from Him.

In other words, HE IS EVERYTHING, NOTHING IS "NOT OF HIM."

And, in Chapter 10 - 19 to 39, He provides more attributes of Himself:

I shall speak to thee now, O best of the Kurus, of My divine attributes, according to their prominence; there is no end to the particulars of My manifestation. 

I am the Self, O Gudâkesha, existent in the heart of all beings; I am the beginning, the middle, and also the end of all beings. 

Of the Adityas, I am Vishnu; of luminaries, the radiant Sun; of the winds, I am Marichi; of the asterisms, the Moon.

I am the Sâma-Veda of the Vedas, and Vâsava (Indra) of the gods; of the senses I am Manas, and intelligence in living beings am I.

And of the Rudras I am Sankara, of the Yakshas and Râkshasas the Lord of wealth (Kuvera), of the Vasus I am Pâvaka, and of mountains, Meru am I.

And of priests, O son of Prithâ, know Me the chief, Brihaspati; of generals, I am Skanda; of bodies of water, I am the ocean.

Of the great Rishis I am Bhrigu; of words I am the one syllable "Om"; of Yajnas I am the Yajna of Japa (silent repetition); of immovable things the Himâlaya. 

Of all trees (I am) the Ashvattha, and Nârada of Deva-Rishis; Chitraratha of Gandharvas am I, and the Muni Kapila of the perfected ones.

Know Me among horses as Uchchaisshravas, Amrita-born; of lordly elephants Airâvata, and of men the king. 

Of weapons I am the thunderbolt, of cows I am Kâmadhuk; I am the Kandarpa, the cause of offspring; of serpents I am Vâsuki.

And Ananta of snakes I am, I am Varuna of water-beings; and Aryaman of Pitris I am, I am Yama of controllers.

And Prahlâda am I of Diti's progeny, of measurers I am Time; and of beasts I am the lord of beasts, and Garuda of birds.

Of purifiers I am the wind, Râma of warriors am I; of fishes I am the shark, of streams I am Jâhnavi (the Ganges).

Of manifestations I, am the beginning, the middle and also the end; of all knowledges I am the knowledge of the Self, and Vâda of disputants. 

Of letters the letter A am I, and Dvandva of all compounds; I alone am the inexhaustible Time, I the Sustainer (by dispensing fruits of actions) All-formed. 

And I am the all-seizing Death, and the prosperity of those who are to be prosperous; of the feminine qualities (I am) Fame, Prosperity (or beauty), Inspiration, Memory, Intelligence, Constancy and Forbearance.

Of Sâmas also I am the Brihat-Sâma, of metres Gâyatri am I; of months I am Mârgashirsha, of seasons the flowery season. 

I am the gambling of the fraudulent, I am the power of the powerful; I am victory, I am effort, I am Sattva of the Sâttvika. 

Of the Vrishnis I am Vâsudeva; of the Pândavas, Dhananjaya; and also of the Munis I am Vyâsa; of the sages, Ushanas the sage.

Of punishers I am the sceptre; of those who seek to conquer, I am statesmanship; and also of things secret I am silence, and the knowledge of knowers am I.

And whatsoever is the seed of all beings, that also am I, O Arjuna. There is no being, whether moving or unmoving, that can exist without Me.
Ram Ram,
Deosaran Bisnath

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Hari Om

Sadhak Swarupaji ! Welcome! Thoughts are output of a machine called "mind" which is part of body which in turn is part of Prakruti (Nature). They arise based on bhavas (inner sentiments) , which in turn depend upon "ego" (me and mine) of the Jeeva. A change in ego (karta) changes the "bhavas" ! Hence we should not attribute everything to God. God has also given us "viveka" - power to discriminate as well as "independence" to function. Though , ultimately, both inert and sentient belong to Him only, but a sadhak may well draw a distinction first between the two, so that he may renounce inert and establish himself into sentient. Hence it is better that a sadhak presumes that thoughts are not caused by Paramatma as that means wrongly that a human is not independent. God is a disinterested witness most of the time, like self (soul) in a Jeeva! God interferes only upon certain circumstances (e g surrender, bhakta wholly dependent upon Him etc) only. Otherwise, gunas interplay !! All actions/thoughts etc take place in nature only! Both God and Jeeva are beyond Nature!

You may therefore consider that God is "residing" in thoughts but is not "causing" the thoughts. Gunas only are getting consumed in Gunas as ego, intellect, body, mind etc including thoughts, are only part of Prakruti (Gunas) and arise and end in prakruti only.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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In response to the message # 2816, I would like to respond as follows;

Arjuna realises that Lord Krishna is indeed an incarnation of the Lord Vishnu and as per verse 43 of chapter 11, Arjuna continues adoration of the Lord by eulogising, "You are the father of the world of the moving as well as the unmoving. You are the sole idol of the worship and its venerable teacher. None is equal to you. How then could there be anyone greater than you in these three worlds, O Lord of incomparable greatness."

As the Lord Vishnu pervades the entire Universe, there is hardly anything that is not God.

(ANS:  the verse doesn't speak of 'what is NOT God' )  /  VS

However, please refer verse 12 from chapter 7 from Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has asserted that, "Whatever natures that are Saattvika (purity), Raajasika (passion) and Taamasika (indolence) – these certainly know as from Me alone; I am not in them but they are in Me."      (ANS:    In verse 12 chapter 7 Shree Krishna said 'neither they are in me nor am I in them' and you mistakenly say 'but they are in Me') / VS.

Lord Krishna uses `Me' to mean himself as the personification of the Brahman, in the human form.

Please also refer verse 25 from chapter 7 from Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has asserted that, "Veiled by My creative power (Yoga-Maayaa) I am not revealed to all. This bewildered world knows Me not, the unborn, the unchanging."

(ANS: this verse is about Bhagawaan, not about What is NOT Bhagwaan'.) / VS

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi

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God is everything and everything is in God.   Entire Gita is full of such quotes.
Basudeb Sen

(ANS:  vague statement. please give actual quotes about 'what is NOT Bhagwaan'. ) / VS
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Hari Om

Such a Q does not arise and should not arise, at the outset. "Mattah parataram naanyat kinchidasti ...." (7:7) - "There is nothing else besides Me, like clusters of yarn beads, formed by knots on a thread, all this is threaded on Me " (7/7)  "sadsacchahamarjun"  "I am Neing and Non Being both" etc. "To find out" - What and Why ?

Since the Q has been raised hence the answer can only be one. For one who does not "accept" that God is in all and in everything, the God does not exist FOR him in all and in everything. Exactly therefore then various verses in Gita particularly in Chapter 16 emanate , e g "mamatma pardeheshu pradvishanto ..." etc in chapter 16 wrt the "asuri" nature souls. Hence although Paramatma exists in all and in everything, however, to the ignorant ones He does not exist, for they don't "assume/accept" so !

In essence it is all a matter of "acceptance" by individual embodied souls and not of "reality"- for in reality the answer is known !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

(ANS:  Reverand Sadhaka, the question was what Gita says about 'what is not GOD/BHAGAWAAN/PARAMAATMAA'? and not about asuri human or non acceptance or acceptance of God. please quote actual verses which say about 'WHAT IS NOT GOD?' this is a serious study, not a ritual.) / VS
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A GOD'S DEVOTTEE feels,WHEN EVERY THING IS GOD AND ALL IS GOD, THEN WHY DESIRE TEMPORARY WORLDLY THINGS? DESIRE ONLY GOD THEN , WHO IS ONLY PERMANENT.IT IS GOD WHO HAS COMPELLED this tiny devotee to think in this way. THIS FEELINGS ALSO IS GIVEN BY THE ALLMIGHTY ONLY.
JAI MAA KALI
HARE KRISHNA

"Swarupa Chakraborty"

(ANS:   Reverand Sadhaka, question was What Gita says about 'WHAT IS NOT GOD?'. Please give actual quotations that say about 'what is not God?'. this is serious study, not a ritual.) / VS
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Monday, June 29, 2009

[gita-talk] Re: Why the Lack of Constancy? Why Not Firm and Implicit Trust in His Ordinance?



WHEN WE KNOW GOD HAS DONE ALL GOOD FOR US AND EVERY SITUATION IS FOR OUR GOOD, EVEN THEN, WHEN SOMETHING UNPLEASANT HAPPENS IN OUR LIFE WE GET IRRITATED & DO NOT EASILY BELIEVE THAT EVERY SITUATION IS FOR OUR GOOD. (Bhagwaanji's Mangalmai Vidhaan)

KINDLY ELABORATE,
KALPNA DIXIT

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NEW POSTING

KINDLY STICK TO THE GUIDELINES OF CONCISE MESSAGES.  RAM RAM

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Dear Sadhak insight
Every devotee is required to write his or her own interpretation.If we deeply believe in God then even in difficult circumstances wed keep our faith in Him.Read the story of queen Kunti in Mahabharat then we can easily follow this principle of faith in God
 
TRuly yours
 
S S Bhatt
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Mr. Vyas,

Thanks for your interest in my utterances. To me both virtues and sins are
concoction of a wishful mind and therefore are the same in terms of ignorance as
well as their potential representation of the truth. The good and bad always
remain relative to each other - each cannot exist without the other! They both
stand as hurdles with their strong insistence on their opposites in one's
seeking The Absolute. The duality persists in one's mind with an insistence on
the good as strongly with an insistence on the bad. The very insistence on "a
good" reflects the aversion to the "corresponding bad" with equal potency. What
scripture shall I quote for you on this?! To me every phrase and every word in
every verse in every scripture tell ONLY THIS. May be, that is all I can see.

I am a bit disappointed that even you too were tempted to extrapolate an
utterance to a conclusion. You see, scriptures are there to correct me
only when the correction is seen within.  Swamiji's life is a
testImony to this in my understanding. As a seeker, I do not have any bondage to
"agree" with anybody, even Bhagavan Vyaasa. It does not mean in any sense that
there could be an iota of disrespect there! I urge you not to let yourself swing
to assert that "Swamiji is always right" as if I could be under a different
opinion.

After all, the utterance does not suggest anything new here (How can I? How can
anybody make any new statement on anything??) It is a well known fact amongst
all the seers and has been explicitly mentioned in all scriptures. For example,
I am quoting Swamy Ramsukhdasji below (Sadhak circular, 10th June, 2009):

Both sins and virtues are of the same "jaati" class (category) i.e. both lead to
bondage, both are inauspicious, impure, arise and are later destroyed.

The ignorance is the seed for virtues and sins as well as the fruit of the
virtues and sins. Yes, it IS circular and vicious. That is the difficulty I face
as I keep mentioning to your and others' annoyance that removal of ignorance is
NOT INSTANTANEOUS. That is the difficulty I face irrespective of whatever is
said by anybody. Unless I am transparent to my difficulty, I cannot dream of
transcending the same. You may not be facing this problem. Then, that is good
for you. Coming back to the circularity of the ignorance; again, there is no
invention in the utterance here. It is a well known fact amongst all the seers
including Swamy Ramsukhdasji. Again a quote from him from the same article
(Sadhak circular, 10th June, 2009):

Relationship with Bhagavaan not only destroys sins and virtues, rather it
destroys "the cause of sins and virtues that is ignorance".
Both "sins and virtues ... lead to bondage" (above quote).

Therefore, the utterance naturally comes out ... ignorance is the cause of sins
and virtues which in turn lead to the same in a snowballing manner. Vicious
indeed.

I hope that clarifies. If you think that I need to explain further, please feel
free. I will try my best.

Thank You.

Respects.

Naga Narayana
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 
Narain ! Narain !!
 
Replying to the Qs with a lot of Love...if at all Love can be expressed: 

Q  Any number of commentaries on the Bhagvada Geetha  is just not enough. The sentiments are so very deep.  If one contemplates on the Gita,  new and extraordinary sentiments manifest .  A man's life changes entirely as he begins to contemplate on these verses.   ...Swami Ramsukhdas jee

Dictionary Meaning of Contempolate , Contemplation 1. Contemplate. ........... to meditate ........... ( Collins Dictionary )2.Contemplation. ............ ........Religiou s Meditation ( a form of Prayer, in which a person seeks a direct experience of the divine ...........(Oxford dictinary.)Ah, dear sadhakas, words,words, words..... ......... .....

Ans : Ask MODERATORS first when they used the word " Contemplation" whether it meant "SAMADHI" !  When in doubt or unclear, it is advicable to check the Hindi version fo Swamiji's writings, before concluding.  To a common man's language... contemplation is pondering over, deeply thinking about ! Sure ..Gita bhavas are divine...!!!  Words are very powerful source of Realisation. They reach SELF directly. When you are sleeping and somebody calls out your name , you wake up...why? Because words touch the souls !!

Q Swami Ramsukhdasjee keeps speaking of Sadhan,Sadhya, and Sadhak being ONE

So do all sages and saints . Saints,sages ,who experience this One-ness ,this Silence ,this self that is also the not-self That is both and neither Who have experienced that Karma,Bhakti ,and Gyana are One

Who are trying to lead the One desiring to understand One-ness .......to walk to the Destination that is ONE- NESS , from the Point where he ( she) is NOW,this Moment Now they also use words only to lead you beyond the words ............ unto silence .

Ah,Sadhakas ,we are back to square ONE .... Quibbling about words ....

Ans Per my understanding we are not back to square one ! Experience is not something that can be questioned or vouched or argued out. 

Q What can poor nari or narinder say in words  ....and how ?  ( all the Upanishads have proclaimed that Truth is anarvachniya ! And yet have succeeded in indicating the Way to the Sadhaka True )

nari, narinder , partap, sushil, naga sadhna, vyas, maharashi ,meera,mike, rupesh ,Swamiji,  are BUT names ..... a million more names  functional entities of a non-existing dream. the world.  in reality,they are only dream characters in your dream ............ ... to awaken from your dream........ ...... search for the dreamer ............ .

Ans : Poor Nari or Nar or Narinder or Naroo or Bhandari can only argue , play as a toy in the hands of mischievous mind !! Dream is never "non existent" ! Dream when seen is existent. After you wake up..the very dream goes..what remains is "remembrance thereof".. !! Why you are counting names? To prove what?  You are dreaming...dreaming and dreaming. Shri Krishna Narinedath ! Your interference needed? Dangerous mental propensity...Sir !! Utter confusion ! As regards "anirvachaniya"... find out what Dictionaries say about it !! If it is so...what vivechan is sought by you?

Q ,the Path of Devotion ,the Truth of Meditation is directly and indirectly referred to in the various shlokas . Let us see a few......... .....
 
Ans :  Read Gita ! Read Sadhak Sanjeevani !! Read Daily Swamiji messages! Read past postings GT Group Q and As ! READ ! READ !! Read and then write ! What you have stated as BG 12:6/7 / 14 etc...is ONLY achievable by "establishing mineness with Paramatma"...not by Meditation ! Whether it is sloka 2, 3, 8, and 14 or 6 or 7 of BG ...the reaching there is not through MIND or meditation but by "becoming of God". ! A pativrata wife never utters the name of her husband...but is she not of him? You are allowed to WORK 24 hours a day...and still you can achieve what is stated in the aforesaid slokas of BG referred by you ! This you can realise ONLY by reading Sadhak Sanjeevani !  Kindly read  read Scriptures, read Swamiji in depth...listen to others..  On the basis of mind or ego or living Gurus or by AGRAHS ?
 
Q Shalokas 16 to 19 speak aver that ............ when one goes beyond words ............. ... his conduct becomes as stated therein. Remember Sadhakas,you are your own Proof.
 
Ans : If your goal is to go "beyond words" then why you are referring English Dictionaries ? What is in those Dictionaries except words?? "We are our own proof" ..means what ? Means nothing. So what ? 
 
Q It also occurs to narinder that  many deeply advanced sadhakas ( souls) share the truths that they have realised ever so humbly and lovingly. narinder thanks them . It is they,who touch the hearts of other sadhakas .

Ans : Who is this Narinder ? " SELF" or "NAME" ? If it is SELF then why SELF is stated as Narinder? Why not as " I " ? You are not yet discriminating ! Even the name given is so closely dear to you. Remember...first learn to discriminate between body and soul ! Then talk !! We want thanks from SELF and not from NARINDER ! Why ... hearts of "other sadhaks" ...are we not touching your heart also ? So much labour is being put by us...to straighten out the twists and turns of your insistent mind and reliance of SELF over NARINDER !!

Q The enlightened Master is never harsh or judgemental, or,patronising ............ ....... he is just loving !

May the blessings of the Buddhas be with us ............ ......... ...

Ans : THIS IS SATSANGA FORUM ! Here arguments, discussions, deliberations, agreements, disagreements, praises, criticisms take place NATURALLY ! What else you expect out of SATSANGA ? Love can not be demanded ... it comes automatically when you are associated with SAT and remain established therein ! You can see in others only that which you yourself have....IT IS A CARDINAL PRINCIPLE...ARGUE ON THIS !!

Narain ! Narain !!

Naarad N Maharishi
 
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PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadaks,
I would like add this to my previous posting. "WHEN WE KNOW GOD HAS DONE ALL GOOD FOR US AND EVERY SITUATION IS FOR OUR GOOD," said by Sri Kalpna. Even in conjugal situation I dont think man has faith in God. He is busy with social obligations and programs. If faith in God is there in comfortable situations, the faith will remain even in unpleasent situations. Man` s hidden thinking is that God should take care of him in all situations, because HE is creator. We hear people say, " Why on earth God created me". Ignorance and absence of total faith. Partial faith does not work with God. Drowpathi was holding on to her last stretch of her sari in one hand and calling to Govinda. When it failed, she raised both her hands in total faith, she was saved. Same with us.
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan
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Any number of commentaries on the Bhagvada Geetha  is just not enough. The sentiments are so very deep.  If one contemplates on the Gita,  new and extraordinary sentiments manifest .  A man's life changes entirely as he begins to contemplate on these verses.

 .                                        ....................................................................Swami Ramsukhdas jee
Ref:
[sadhaka] Glories of Gitaji (Jun 11, 2009)


Dictionary Meaning of Contempolate , Contemplation

1. Contemplate. ........... to meditate ........... ( Collins Dictionary )


2.Contemplation. ....................Religious Meditation ( a form of Prayer, in which a person seeks a direct experience of the divine ...........(Oxford dictinary.)


Ah, dear sadhakas,

 words,words,words..................

Swami Ramsukhdasjee keeps speaking of Sadhan,Sadhya,and Sadhak being ONE

So do all sages and saints

Saints,sages ,who experience this One-ness ,this Silence ,this self that is also the not-self

That is both and neither

Who have experienced that Karma,Bhakti ,and Gyana are One

Who are trying to lead the One desiring to understand One-ness .......to walk to the Destination that is ONE- NESS , from the Point where he ( she) is NOW,this Moment Now

they also use words only to lead you beyond the words ............ unto silence

Ah,Sadhakas ,we are back to square ONE .... Quibbling about words ....

What can poor nari or narinder say in words  ....and how ?  ( all the Upanishads have proclaimed that Truth is anarvachniya ! And yet have succeeded in indicating the Way to the Sadhaka True )

nari, narinder , partap, sushil, naga sadhna, vyas, maharashi ,meera,mike,rupesh ,Swamiji,  are BUT names ..... a million more names  functional entities of a non-existing dream. the world.  in reality,they are only dream characters in your dream ............... to awaken from your dream............. search for the dreamer .............

Only KRISHNA is REAL.

VASUDEVAYE SARVAM..

AUM

narinder bhandari

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Hari Om

Mr Naga Narain ! It will be helpful if you can please share with us which Scripture to your knowledge supports that both sins and virtues give birth to ignorance; which in turn gives birth to happiness/sorrow and from that happiness/sorrow again sins/virtues spring forth .... Thus a vicious never ending circle forms !

Swamiji's Divine words are always truthful. Truth does not require any acceptance/acnowledgement/conditions/contexts/ appeal effect . Truth is always Truth. Saints have said:

HAI SO SUNDER HAI SADAA , NAHIN SO SUNDER NAAHI !

NAHIN SO PRAKAT DEKHIYE, HAI SO DEEKHE NAAHI !!

What is beautiful (right/ what exists) is always beautiful (is always right/always exists) , what is not beautiful (false/non existent) is not beautiful (remains false/doesnot exist) !

(Ignorance... Irony is that) What is not beautiful (non existence) appears to be so ( appears existing) and what is existing (beautiful/Truth) does not appear to be existing !!

Truth supports itself (Dharma rakshito dharmah) ! Some may find Truth to be appealing , some may not ! That in no case vitiates the Truth. Truth prevails. So that Truth prevails.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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In the twelfth chapter,the Path of Devotion ,the Truth of Meditation is directly and indirectly referred to in the various shalokas . Let us see a few..............
 
Sh.6, 7.
 
But those,who worship Me,renouncing all actions in Me, regarding Me as the supreme Goal,  meditating on Me with a single minded devotion,
 
For them,whose minds are set on Me,verily I become,the Saviour,( to save them) out of the Ocean of finite experiences; the SAMSARA.

further, shalokas 2,3,8,and 14 also  indicate the importance of meditative approach/meditation while reading / hearing the words ................
 
Sh.14. says ...........Ever content ,steady in Meditation,self-controlled, possessed of firm conviction, with mind and intellect dedicated to Me,he ,My devotee,is dear to Me.
 
Meditation is the Way ................... meditation as the Way is integral to all  Paths ..........................
Shalokas 16 to 19 speak aver that ............ when one goes beyond words ............... his conduct becomes as stated therein.

Remember Sadhakas,you are your own Proof.

It also occurs to narinder that  many deeply advanced sadhakas ( souls) share the truths that they have realised ever so humbly and lovingly. narinder thanks them . It is they,who touch the hearts of other sadhakas . The enlightened Master is never harsh or judgemental,or,

patronising ................... he is just loving !

May the blessings of the Buddhas be with us ........................

AUM

 narinder
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Priy sadhaks,
This situation is very practical and almost every one come across this.
The reason is lack of APANAPAN (feeling of mine) WITH GOD.
If we be firm that gid is ours then we can get rid of it.
see in practical life, when we accept someone APANA (Like father mother bro sis wife), Then we have in our depth that whatever one does can never be for my bad for us.
Similarly with god apanapan is real thing which can solve this prob.
Swamiji in describing sharanagati says nothing more matters as APANAPAN WITH GOD. NO GYAN TAP KARM CAN MATCH IT.
THANX
RAJA Gurdasani
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear sadaks,
Agyanan is the cause. Our past loads of bad Karmas is the cause for Agyanan
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------------------------------------

Ram Ram,
Deosaranji is very much right in his statement. Happiness and sorrow are not the fruit of sins and virtues, the situations (favorable & unfavorable) are. Its fully in our hands to become happy or sorrowful.
Ashok Goenka
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Namaste, Dear Sadhakas!
Moderators have asked to share understanding on Swamiji's words of wisdom:
"Happiness and Sorrow are due to ignorance (stupidity), they are not the fruits of sins and virtues." 
Already he has explained profoundly in that writeup, it is worth reading again and again.
I can only echo what I learned.
Situations keep on happening relentlessly in Life, they don't happen personally even if they seem to affect one more than others.  Life is unavoidable relationship among each other and with Nature. Nothing ever can happen in isolation. If there is "one", there are necessarily "others" and thinking and actions of "one" affects "others". This results in mass/collective karmas consisting of virtues and sins(papa and punya), and always culminate in impersonal events mistaken by individuals as happy or unhappy personal situations. This is also the Causal Body of Ignorance(of not knowing one's true Nature).
A wise is one who takes such situations in strides and remain steadfast in Being only, unaffected by pleasures and pains perceived in them!
What helps one to remain in equanimity is the understanding that he is the Witnessing Presence Permeating the body-mind that belongs to Nature; and whatever happens, happens impersonally to Nature, not to the Presence!
In Bhaktas, the understanding is Divine Love of Pure Being. His/her entire Being is taken over by this Unconditional Love which he/she calls Bhagwaan!
Pure Being of SELF is Divine-Unconditional Love, Love that knows no opposites, and is also at the same time Impersonal Cosmic Intelligence manifest in abundance! God, to me, is Experince(anubhutiroopah) of Pure Being-Consciousness), Divine Love, and Intelligence!
Namaskar........Pratap Bhatt
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This knowledge that God has done all good for us although true has come from
outside. When you only make an attempt to accept an unpleasant experience in
totality without dividing it into good and bad, you are on the path of Sadhana.
Gradually questions will melt and you will reach first stage of Nirvitark
Samadhi. As you practice this acceptance for a longer period,you will experience
inflow of Divine Energy when you are about to breakdown and slowly preliminary
experience of Nirvichar Samadhi will start. Mind will become more quiet and
God's presence will be felt to an extent.Why such things happen will also be
understood and you will be on Real Path of Progress. Bahunam Janmanam ante,
Gnanwan mam prapadyante. Bhagwad Geeta verse 7/19.  Have faith, patience and
perseverence and parameter of Tolerance will be developed.
This will lead you to Divine experience.
Jayantilal Shah

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear sadhakas,
Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question
From a sadhaka regarding happiness and sorrow.

Lord krishna says in bhagavad gita
" Prakruteh kriyamanani,
Gunai karmani sarvasah" ( gita 3, 27"
Which means
"Activities are carried out by the
Modes of nature".
The three modes of nature are sattva ( goodness), rajoh( passion) , tamo (ignorance).
activities continue to happen with or without our involvement.
That is the law of nature.

Lord krishna says in gita,

" Sattvam sukhe sanjayati,
Rajah karmani bharata,
Jnanam avrutya tu tamah,
Pramade sanjayaty uta" ( gita 14, 9)
Which means,
" O son of bharata, mode of goodness causes happiness, passion leads one to fruitive action, and ignorance leads one to madness and danger. "

If we want to be happy, we need to be in the mode of goodness.
Passion and ignorance do not lead us to happiness.

Lord krishna continues,

"Karmanah sukrutasyahuh,
Sattvikam nirmalam phalam,
Rajasas tu phalam dukham,
Ajnanam tamasah phalam" ( gita, 14, 16).

Which means

"Pious activities done in the mode of goodness are pure. Actions done in the mode of passion lead us to misery and,sorrow. Action perormed in the mode of ignorance causes foolishness. "

People involved in pious actions are situated in happiness.

We are bound by actions. There is no way out. But there is one, as lord krishna says,

" Mam ca yo vyabhicarena,
Bhakti yogena sevate,
Sa gunan samatityaitan,
Brahma bhuyaya kalpate. "( Gita, 14, 26)

Which means,

" One who is in full devotional service all the time , transcends the modes of this materialism and reaches the level of eternal bliss. "

If we want to get out of these modes of nature, devotional service is the answer.

Thank you.

Hare krishna.

Prasad iragavarapu. M. D

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Any number of commentaries on the Bhagvada Geetha  is just not enough. The sentiments are so very deep.  If one contemplates on the Gita,  new and extraordinary sentiments manifest .  A man's life changes entirely as he begins to contemplate on these verses.
 .                                        ....................................................................Swami Ramsukhdas jee
Ref:
[sadhaka] Glories of Gitaji (Jun 11, 2009)


Dictionary Meaning of Contempolate , Contemplation

1. Contemplate. ........... to meditate ........... ( Collins Dictionary )


2.Contemplation. ....................Religious Mediation( a formof Prayer,in which a person seeks a direct experience of the divine ...........(Oxford dictinary.)

 Ah, dear sadhakas,  words,words,words  ...too many words eclipse the Truth Beyond …………the silence,which is the womb of the words ...    Silence ,which is not the  word silence

BUT,is the ISNESS  of the word silence ..which just IS

This silence is the ultimate Truth ,the Nothingness

Nothingness ,which is the womb of Everythingness

The Truth....The Real,......The Un-knowable ever known, ...Is God,

Is Krishna .....Is the Way to Krishna

Witness Consciousness is the Way

No Doing, NO treading,  just being yourself,  the self

Narinder Bhandari

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Lord Krishna smiles ( Afterall He too is 'sahaj sukhraasi') at the ignorance of His children when we refer to His 'MAYA' as stupidity in BG 7:13/14 !
Let there be deliberations:   'Wisdom vs Ignorance'.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

Hari Om

Sheer stupidity (moorkhata) ! Nothing except stupidity !! Only Stupidity !!! Lord Krishna laughs ( Afterall He too is 'sahaj sukhraasi') at the stupidity only of His children when He calls that stupidity as 'MAYA' in BG 7:13/14 ! But "actually" alone Stupidity !

Let there be deliberations:

'Wisdom vs Stupidity'.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
 
"Happiness and Sorrow are due to ignorance (stupidity), they are not the fruits
of sins and virtues."

Such a statement from a teacher makes perfect sense under certain contexts e.g.
when the desciple is carried away by the apparent sins and virtues while
ignoring their inherent counterpart - ignorance. The lopsided emphasis in a
seeker is often "balanced" by emphasising the ignored opposite by the wise
teacher. I do not think that meant anyway to ignore the sins and virtues
altogether.

But, as we go beyond contexts, I see that ignorance is the seed for all sins
(and virtues); and ignorance is the fruit of all sins (and virtues).

OR, one can also say,

Sins (and virtues) are the seed for ignorance; and sins (and virtues) are the
fruits of ignorance.

However we see, the two are inseparable. So are the two polarized feelings of
sorrow and happiness. They are inseparable from the sins and virtues which are
inseparable from the ignorance as such. They produce each other, they harvest
each other and they devour each other in cycles. Therefore, the second part of
this statement does not appeal to me.

To me ignorance, sins, virtues, happiness, sorrow, etc. are synanymous with
concurrent occurance. As we feel sorrow and happiness, sins and virtues are
generated and the ignorance is enseeded. As the ignorance pops up, sins and
virtues are churned out and the feelings of sorrow and happines are established.

Of course, the opposites such as sins and virtues often appear as different when
one applies the relativity of one's tempermental ego-centric and ego-promotional
attitude toward the same. When ego is active, ignorance itself starts appearing
as "knowledge" as well. But, even from the relative perspective, the second part
of the statement (seggregation of ignorance from sins and virtues) does not
apeal to me personally.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari     Ram Ram

Brothers,  Deosaranji pointed out this particular statement from sadhaka postings.   What is your understanding of this statement?   Do you  have any doubts, disagreements with what is being stated? 

"Happiness and Sorrow are due to ignorance (stupidity), they are not the fruits of sins and virtues." 

Kindly share,   Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram 

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why  the Lack of Constancy?  Why Not Firm and Implicit Trust in His Ordinance?

Because … "OUR GOOD" has never let our focus shift away from itself even in the
name of The God! We wander in search of "our good" everywhere in absolute
futility as we lack truthful appreciation of good and bad on one hand; and are
incapable of looking at anything without the filter-glass in terms of our
notions of good and bad on the other hand. Till we remain captive within our
notions of good and bad, The God remains a distant notion as well. Therefore, a
closer look at our notions of good and bad may be the clue to this question ...

Respects

Naga Narayana

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

All three messages in the last post are divine ! They are:

Exclusive mineness with Him ( Miraji Dass) ; Love. ( Brother Mike) and Equanimity ( Prasadji)!

Let us put Mineness and Love on one side (there is "cause" and "effect" relationship between the two) AND Equanimity ( Samata) in other Side :

Says Tulsidasji Maharaj :

TULSI MAMTA RAAM SE, SAMATA SAB SANSAAR

NB Vyas

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhaks
 
In Gita ,where it is mentioned that:-
1)God has done all good for us
2)Every situation is for our good
 
I have not seen mention of such assumptions.I invite reference to Verse 14 of 5 th Chapter
and verse 14 th of 5th chapter which says otherwise.You may also study  remaining verses of 14th Chapter.
 
The universe or God operates on two basic principles:-
a)Free choice-we are free to choose the way we want to  feel,think or act on any situation.
b)Non-interference-God will not interfere in any choice we make.
 
Please also refer to verse 16th and 17th  of 18th Chapter on the 'Doer" or Karta
 
regards
 
Ashok Jain
 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Radhey ! Radhey !!
 
We shall crawl into the Mom's Lap....undoubtedly ! But when? Now itself or after toiling, sufferring, travelling into endless wombs...when ? THIS ENTIRELY DEPENDS UPON US ! There is a difference between Holy Bath  in Holy Ganges when taken in the month of January or when taken in the Month of May. Result is same, but pains......! Why should we leave what is under our prorogative, under our control and under our arena of KARMA to the FATE/DESTINY and why we should run day and night after those things which have no corelation with your present Karmas but have corelation with your fate/destiny?  No ! Devotion/Bhakti and shedding of worldly me and mine need be taken instantly. Dear Sadhaks ! Laws of Nature always drag us towards our Mom. We delay the process by DESIRING worldly transitory things and getting attached with worldly people and establishing UNNATURAL....Me  (es) and Mine(s). No one is ours, we dont belong to the world, nothing is ours, .....it is TRUTH ....TRUTH !! Sooner we realise it, faster we shall crawl into HIS lap. Laws of Nature are ruthless. If we dont move suo motto towards His lap, they will give us pains and drive us towards His lap...be sure about it !
 
Radhey ! Radhey !!
 
Nisha Chatterji

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Swamiji says - A mother loves her child dearly, yet she scrubs him and pours water over him while giving him a bath. She does this to cleanse him, and does not ask for permission, and she does this even if the child cries, or resents or is defiant.   We are like His children, but ultimately we have no choice but to crawl back into our mother's lap.  Because there is no other safe place like that.  God is our eternal mother, father, companion, caretaker and everything.  He is the only One with us at all times.  Every one else will desert us, sometime or the other.  

So whether we believe it or not, we will ultimately crawl into His lap, no matter what.   

With devotion,  Meera Das,  Ram Ram 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear sadhakas,
Hare krishna.

This is in response to a question
From a sadhaka.

Lord krishna says in bhagavad gita,

"Prakrtyaiva ca karmani,
Kriyamanani sarvasah,
Yah pasyati tathatmanam,
Akartaram sa pasyati. " (Gita 13, 30)

Which means

"One who sees that all activities
Are performed by the body,which is made up of material nature
And sees that self does nothing,
Is the one that actually sees and
That one is the gnani. "

This body is made up of material
Nature under the direction of the
Lord and the activities that are
Going on in one,s body is not his doing. The body is given because of our past desires, and to satisfy one,s desires, one gets this body. The ' self ' is outside the activities of the body. Because of our desires, we get into these circumstances, that give us pain or pleasure.

One who realizes that he is not this body and sees the difference between the body and the
Self , has developed the transcendental vision and that one, is the gnani.

The way to get out of these, material miseries of our lives, is through devotional service. Let us chant the holy name of the
Lord and advance spiritually.

Thank you.

Hare krishna.

Prasad iragavarapu. M. D


---------------------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-
Nameste!
Consider the paste:
Gitaji:2 56. He whose mind is not shaken by adversity, who does not hanker
after pleasures, and who is free from attachment, fear and anger, is called a
sage of steady wisdom.
Now I will tell you this, something amazing can happen when you are severely
afflicted in some way or other. If you focus on the Divine, your pain can be
transmuted into love, not bitterness.
What a joy it is to observe the way you change towards those who suffer around
you, you will realize, you are touched by 'Divine Love'!
With Respect and Divine Love,
Mike (K)
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste.

I urge you to read and study these precious gems from today's sadhaka group post; go to group's home page to subscribe.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/

In my humble opinion, these 3 lines cover the content of hundreds or thousands of books.  If you have truly developed Love for Bhagavan, you will not be bothered about anything; you will not be wondering about happiness, sorrow, joy, agony.....

"Happiness and Sorrow are due to ignorance (stupidity), they are not the fruits of sins and virtues."

"On having a relationship with Bhagavan, how can ignorance remain !  Ignorance cannot remain in either knowledge or in Love."

"Man is only happy and unhappy as long as he is unaware of his true Self, his real nature (Swaroop) or if he has not developed Love for Bhagavan."

Profound, isn't it ?

See below for full post

Ram Ram
Deosaran Bisnath

-----------------------------------------------------
 

: Shree Hari: 
Ram Ram

10th June, 2009, Wednesday; Aashaad Krishna Tritiya, Vikram Samvat 2066, Budhvaar

 

There is an important point to think about and that is -  Sins and virtues are not wiped out from happiness and sorrow, but from receiving favorable and unfavorable situations.  Happiness and Sorrow are due to ignorance (stupidity), they are not the fruits of sins and virtues,.   But the longing due to separation from Bhagavan (God), is the fruit of  Love.  On having a relationship with Bhagavan, how can ignorance remain !  Ignorance cannot remain in either knowledge or in Love.  Man is only happy and unhappy as long as he is unware of his true Self, his real nature (Swaroop) or if he has not developed Love for Bhagavan.

It is not a big deal to wipe out sins and virtues.  Sins and virtues of every single person are continuing to get destroyed; because favorable and unfavorable situation arise in front of every single creature.  In heaven, continuously virtues are being wiped out; and in hell uninterruptedly sins are being wiped out.  Sins and virtues are within the realm of nature born "gunas" (prakritijanya, modes of nature).  Both sins and virtues are of the same "jaati" class (category) i.e. both lead to bondage, both are are inauspicious, impure, arise and are later destroyed. 

On the other hand the union and separation that takes place due to relationship with Bhagavaan is extremely divine, blissful, transcendental, eternal and awakens Love.  Relationship with Bhagavaan not only destroys sins and virtues, rather it destroys the cause of sins and virtues that is ignorance (in other words, relationship with gunas or modes of nature).  Therefore sins and virtues are in a separate department from union and separation. 

On attaining enlightenment, the enlightened one is not free from situations, rather he is free from happiness and sorrow.  Favorable and unfavorable situations come and go according to what is destined to come to even a man of wisdom, but he remains unaffected by these situations, rather he does not become happy or unhappy; because he is free of modes of nature (gunaateeth) -"samdukh - sukhahswasthah"  (Gita 14/24). 

If favorable and unfavorable situations were the ones to give happiness and sorrow, i.e. if happiness and sorrow were the fruits of sins and virtues, then man could never become free from happiness and sorrow - "dwandvairvimuktaah sukhadukhsanjaih"  (Gita 15/5). 

Prahladji, Mirabai etc. were faced with so many unfavorable situations, then too they never became unhappy.  In being free of situations, a man is not independent.  However he is entirely independent in not delighting in enjoyments, i.e. not becoming happy and sad.  Being a part (ansh) of Paramatma, he is naturally free of all modifications (nirvikaar).  

From "Alaukik Prem"  in Hindi page 5-8   by Swami Ramsukhdasji

Ram Ram

For ENGLISH WEBSITE please visit: http://www.swamiram sukhdasji.net
For full online discourses in Hindi: http://www.swamiram sukhdasji.org

------------------------------------------------------
 
 
 


That is why the world is known as Maya.  What appears to be, is not true.
 
This understanding that everything happening is for good, God is only good....
is easy  to follow when you have full faith and practice this for a while.....
 
All doubts will have to be countered/neutralized by your faith in the understanding mentioned above, shifting your mind to accept that every happening is good.......
The irritation will dissolve/disappear.....for results to come, it takes a little time...
but truth is truth...........experience it, try it out.......
 
Sushil  Jain
------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!!
 
Mr Bhandari,   What conduct...what Time and Space ? What inability? What efforts? What step by step ? What does it take for a child to say MOM IS MINE ? What wisdom is required there? Cant we even become like a child ? Meditation as I understand is CATEGORICALLY stated not once but twice in the Gita that it is the most difficult.   As I understand the the pre qualifications required to MEDITATE are not simple as stated in Gita Chaper VI .
 
Bhakti Yoga is the easiest as per Lord Krishna in Gita, Goswamiji in Ramayana, Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Shrimad Bhagavatam ( and endless Scriptures)... but you are opinion is thaat it is the toughest because in your views humans are not equipped...100% opposite of reality. Similarly Dhyaan Yoga contemplates a lot of qualifications as per Gita, Patanjali Yoga Darshana etc... you say it is the way (if not now the ONLY way- thanks for relaxation ).
 
My sincere advice -  SHED ALL PRIOR INSISTENCES OF MIND. BE FRESH . YOU ARE AMONG THE SADHAKS HERE. YOU ARE IN SATSANGA ! .... SATSANGA !!  HERE ONLY SAT PREVAILS. 
 
Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!!
 
Anirudh Joshi
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Narain !  Narain !!
 
Sadhak Narinder !  kindly quote Gita / other scriptures to support your views, as the guidelines for the group suggest. 
 
Gita 9:31 and Ramcharitra manas clearly state -  " Sanmukh hoi jeev mohi jabahi, koti anagh tav naashahin tabahi" ( When Jeeva turns towards Me, all his sins get destroyed) -  Human birth has been glorified time and again in Scriptures.    Swamiji sasy again and again - ALL ARE CAPABLE, ALL ARE ELIGIBLE, ALL HAVE ALL THAT IS REQUIRED FOR KALYAAN. 
 
However I do see an improvement, from earlier when you used to insist Meditation is the Only way, to now Meditation is the way.   Also, by the way : WISDOM IS NOT ACTION ( KARMA) ; WISDOM IS INACTION (AKARMA) !! Read Gita 18:33.
 
Narain ! Narain !!
 
Naarad N Maharishi
----------------------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Dear Kalpnaji, appreciate your dilemma. It is understandably hard, as you say, to accept situations when they seem to happen to "us or our loved ones". It is easier to offer comfort to others when the same situations arise in their lives! However, there is a way to address them with the help of Almighty and Just God who is all Intelligence if we can establish some relationship with Him/Her by Sadhana!
First of all, we need to understand thoroughly that situations happen impersonally as they happen without any prejudices or intervention on the part of God to punish or reward us. They only seem like happening to us! Situations in themselves are neither good nor bad, we think from a personal point of view, and that is the only reason they are taken "good" or "bad". Don't we know many such situations where someone's gain is someone else' loss?
I never label them as such, and just witness them even if it is hard to do so ocassionally. This helps us to be more objective about situations or things or people, so we can take necessary actions with God given Intelligence! 
What I have found helpful is Prayer in which acknowledgment of limitations of body-mind-intellect(my God given tools), and asking for help of God to do the best for all involved in situations, and in the way He sees fit, in the time He wants to resolve it. In the meantime, I ask for the courage to go through whatever it is and accept it, rather welcome it!  This attitude relieves me as soon as I pray and invariably changes my own outlook towards the situations which now look more neutral than before! As a matter of fact, you get an insight to see positives which are not in situations themselves but within "you", really,  that was always hidden in labeling good or bad for "me" and then fighting.
What gives us the courage to face anything is the Trust in our conviction that nothing is personal in this entire Universe, that God is fairness and freedom and "we" are not individuals, separate and independently existing from God who is the Whole Existence!
As such,  through Prayer, the Intelligence of God manifests in the tools we have at our disposal!
Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Kalpanaji ! A really good Q !

Reasons appear to be

1. Acceptance still is predominantly by mind. Hence, it is not firm. An acceptance by Self is never forgotten. (Does a married woman ever forgets her marital status? - Come what may ). There is acceptance of "Mere to Girdhar Gopal" but not very firmly of " Doosaro na koi" ! There is still respect for world (Doosara / other) in you, proving you have not fully accepted- Doosara Na Koi !

2 Your eye is still not on your direct experiences. That respect to one's experiences emerges when you seek equanimity. Else you will not deter from the truth - "ma phaleshu kadachan" !

But you need not get panicy or undue worried. It is basically the duty of Paramatma to strengthen your faith. Simply don't test your "acceptance" status or think much about it. Thoughts that you are not yet equanimous, proves your desire to be equanimous. This is sterling desire- Subheccha- auspicious desire ! Hence your "AIM"- object ! Remain firm on this AIM/ object ! Seek Equanimity !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhaka,
This doubt has been projected again and again in different forms .................... and the answer too has been given so many times ........................ here it is again ............................. dear sadhakas (These words are being written with a purpose ............. only to highlight the proof of the  True answer ................ )
 
and the answer True is :
 
Your knowing is at the Intellectual level ................... and the intellect never goes very deep .............it is a part of the Ego , which eclipses the Truth from becoming a part of our being .
 
Truth that becomes apart of our being , invariably becomes our 'Conduct '  ..............
 
To transform our Knowledge ( intelectual level ) into Wisdom ( beyond the intellect ...much deeper ! ) ,Meditation is the Way......................
 
Each being is different . Each being is not ready ............ that hearing of the scriptural Truth,enables one  to eat and digest it instantaneously.
 
The majority of beings,in the present movement of Time and Space are into 'doing ". They are Karmic by nature .Their nature is different from that of a Bhakta.  And,however they may wish to 'change'thie nature ,.........they CANNOT . Their nature shall change gradually through making their Doings a Yoga .....Karam yoga is the Way . Patanjali's Step by step Yoga will bring faster results .
 
Each being has to follow his nature ...and as a first step,must   be able to divine his true nature at the present moment , and accept himself .  He/she is his/her own Proof.
 
Remember ,Wisdom is Action. Spontaneous Action .
 
May the Buddhas be your Guide ................
 
AUM
 
narinder bhandari
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Ram-Ram,
Everybody (Jeev-atma) has his share of sorrow and happiness according to the work done by him in present and past lives. God is our father, he never punishes us without mistake. (Do we enjoy while punishing our kids? No! But we do punish our kids, to stop them from getting spoiled.) If we make mistake and then we have to be ready for the punishment. The all merciful God gives us the power to bear the punishment and learn from it. Now its our mistake if we don't understand it.
Ashok Goenka
P>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

FOR QUESTIONER
1. The questions as far as possible must be relevant to Gita, relevant to
Dharma, relavant to other scriptures and relevant to motivate Sadhaks to take up
spiritual path
2. The Questioner must commit to daily Gita study
3. Only one question at a time.
4. Question must be brief, to the point and relevant to the group's primary aim
of deeper understanding of Gita.


GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES for RESPONDER: PLEASE -
1. Only responses that further clarify Gita message will be posted.
2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..
3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they
further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.
5. Focus on subject at hand only.
6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address
etc) or personalize message to particular person
7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify
the posting.
8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Limit
the use to Sanskrit words and provide English word bracketed.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
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[gita-talk] Re: WHAT IS NOT GOD / BHAGAWAN / PARAMATMA ?



Shree  Hari Ram Ram. 

Sadhakas are requested to state what Gita tells us about 'what is not God / Bhagawan / Paramatma' giving quotes from Gita only.

This is to find if there exists that which is "not God,"  If it ever exists. 

Ram Ram. Vineet, Sarvottam

-----------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

In response to the message # 2816, I would like to respond as follows;

Arjuna realises that Lord Krishna is indeed an incarnation of the Lord Vishnu and as per verse 43 of chapter 11, Arjuna continues adoration of the Lord by eulogising, "You are the father of the world of the moving as well as the unmoving. You are the sole idol of the worship and its venerable teacher. None is equal to you. How then could there be anyone greater than you in these three worlds, O Lord of incomparable greatness."

As the Lord Vishnu pervades the entire Universe, there is hardly anything that is not God.

However, please refer verse 12 from chapter 7 from Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has asserted that, "Whatever natures that are Saattvika (purity), Raajasika (passion) and Taamasika (indolence) – these certainly know as from Me alone; I am not in them but they are in Me."

Lord Krishna uses `Me' to mean himself as the personification of the Brahman, in the human form.

Please also refer verse 25 from chapter 7 from Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, wherein Lord Krishna has asserted that, "Veiled by My creative power (Yoga-Maayaa) I am not revealed to all. This bewildered world knows Me not, the unborn, the unchanging."

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi

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God is everything and everything is in God.   Entire Gita is full of such quotes.
Basudeb Sen

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Hari Om

Such a Q does not arise and should not arise, at the outset. "Mattah parataram naanyat kinchidasti ...." (7:7) - "There is nothing else besides Me, like clusters of yarn beads, formed by knots on a thread, all this is threaded on Me " (7/7)  "sadsacchahamarjun"  "I am Neing and Non Being both" etc. "To find out" - What and Why ?

Since the Q has been raised hence the answer can only be one. For one who does not "accept" that God is in all and in everything, the God does not exist FOR him in all and in everything. Exactly therefore then various verses in Gita particularly in Chapter 16 emanate , e g "mamatma pardeheshu pradvishanto ..." etc in chapter 16 wrt the "asuri" nature souls. Hence although Paramatma exists in all and in everything, however, to the ignorant ones He does not exist, for they don't "assume/accept" so !

In essence it is all a matter of "acceptance" by individual embodied souls and not of "reality"- for in reality the answer is known !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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A GOD'S DEVOTTEE feels,WHEN EVERY THING IS GOD AND ALL IS GOD, THEN WHY DESIRE TEMPORARY WORLDLY THINGS? DESIRE ONLY GOD THEN , WHO IS ONLY PERMANENT.IT IS GOD WHO HAS COMPELLED this tiny devotee to think in this way. THIS FEELINGS ALSO IS GIVEN BY THE ALLMIGHTY ONLY.
JAI MAA KALI
HARE KRISHNA

"Swarupa Chakraborty"

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