Thursday, April 30, 2009

[gita-talk] Re: How to overcome the sexual thoughts (KAMA)?



Namaste devotees!

Question: How to overcome the sexual thoughts (KAMA)?

Shankar
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NEW POSTING

-Shree Hari-

Dear Sadhaks,

Viewing this question on the basis of; Shankarji is finding such thoughts a barrier to spiritual progress/spiritual purification, desire to be at one with GOD.

Kaama, erotic desire, is a weak force within the human Psyche,  for one whose eyes are on Bhagwan.

Now a Sadhak mentioned the Brahma Kumaris, very pure souls, they have their 'Drishty', which puts sex in a lower league.

In my lineage of martial arts, I teach of 'The Small Heavenly Circle', which is is an upward movement from just below the navel of a sweet blissful energy filling the body, and the ultimate outcome is, 'The Large Heavenly Circle', in due course.
This is not theoretical, this is a reality.  I suppose I have just scratch the surface, but the point is sex is at the  very
bottom of the leagues of bliss.

If one is absolutely desiring 'The Beloved', then HIS Grace will guide you through the minefield of your base desires.  In fact they can be transmuted.

With Respect and Divine Love.

Mike (Keenor)

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Hari Om

I am in perfect agreement with Sister Catherine Anderson, Rupeshji, and Naaradji. Absolutely flawless are their views. As perfect as that of our Miraji Dass.

Why "only for birth of children"? There the object changes. Your object is not "bhoga" there. Your object is to do the duty of a householder. Your object is in sync with Divine's objective and with Laws of Mom Nature. There are legitimate roles for each part of body. If it was intended to be otherwise the organs of reproduction would not have been there. Hence reproduction is genuine duty of a householder. Hence for a householder indulgence into it with legitimate spouse, with auspicious and sole purpose of creation is totally "dharmic" . God has to reside there. It is HIS purpose of play- Continuation of His Creation. Now if "bhoga" is written in your destiny, and Divine Law of Karma has sanctioned the same to you, the child birth shall get delayed. But your object shall continue to be the "birth of child" and not "bhoga". No legitimate bhoga coming naturally to you without desiring for the same as per operation of destiny and Divine Will is prohibited by any Scriptures. No Bhoga- I repeat. Your object should be doing your Duty.

Object, thus, is of essence. Call that desire or bhava or intention . You should not be having aim of deriving pleasure from the world. In conceptions, you should not be aiding to the delay. That becomes sin , straight away. Because the object of "bhoga" gets established when you use contraceptives. Straight away sin. No doubts. The moment your object is "bhoga" (desire) then as rightly said by Sister Catherine Anderson , you continue doing sins- non stop. No doubt on that. Non-stop sins. Not for a single moment incurring sins ceases- every karma has sins hidden. Let there be no confusion on this. Hence sadhaks should have auspicious intention. At the same time to give birth to children is a legitimate object/desire. Scriptures are full of narrations of really learned souls ( as good as Father of Lord Rama- Dashratha) having desire for a son. Nothing wrong there. HENCE ONLY THAT is covered by BG 7:11, and nothing else. I repeat nothing else. There is no injustice here of Mom Nature. You are given 25 years, and you can legitimately choose to be a householder. If you have capacity, create say 20 children- who stops?

But for students, brahmacharies, widows, etc it can not be "object" , hence the same thing becomes sin, straight away. So does it become for a gruhustha and sadhak too if the object is "bhoga".

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Narain ! Narain !!
 
Hey Devis ! All three , the monkey face, the monkeyness (fickleness) of the mind and the name/surname has been received by me from ancestors only as a gift. What to do ?  That Sage Naaradji Maharaj made the entire chain as monkey faced. Narain! Narain !!
 
Aha ! The message of Sathynarainji is indeed very beneficial. Only one problem there. He stated :  How I could over come is, on looking at some one I immediately think of my sister or mother or daughter or grandchild. ALL PEOPLE WILL MATCH ONE OF THESE. . Earlier when I saw some beautiful woman, I was able to see a similar structured old lady. This tells me the change in whole creation from flowers to humans.

All people do not match one of sister or daughter or grand daughter. One special character gets left out, main character- WIFE. How to deal with her? Narain ! Narain !! She is the main , isn't it? What and whom to see in her? As far as seeing old lady in young is concerned, does not bhava still remain ? Making further analysis of a young lady and conversion of the figure in mind to an old lady, continues the thinking process. Hence alertness is specifically needed there. But age reduces this. In any case : VRIDDHA BHARYA PATIVRATA. ( Old lady is always  pativrata , chaste). .  

Divine Sadhaks. Swamiji would often say: SAAVDHANI HI SADHANA HAI. ( Striving is alertness). Hence, Saavdhani hati, durghatana ghati ( Accident takes place the moment you are careless).. Accident here is incurring the sin. Sister Catherine is absolutely right. Sin ...sin...sin , there is an endless chain in karmas. Whenever there is connection with the world, the connection with the sins is guaranteed, ceaseless, continuous chain of sinning. Connect yourself therefore  either with duty ( karma yoga) , or  self (jnana yoga) or Paramatma ( bhakti yoga).

Narain ! Narain !!  

Naarad N Maharishi
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Namaste
 
its mental process which is known as lust or sex...what happens is that during this process we get swept away  in a strong wave of thoughts....mind  wants repetition....moral or words from holy books  stops us...but what happens? is our individual experience
Bhavesh Pandya
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Pranam to all Sadhaks,

I wish to present a varied blog perspective in this regard. I have herewith deviated a little bit off topic, also hope not to offend anyone's feelings.

The very Idea of overcoming Sexual Thoughts I believe is asking too much of oneself. It is a part of mind and subsequent body control. We should not forget that Almighty has created this very body and mind of ours. Human body and mind is too complex to understand and under constant scientific experimentation. It is foremost important to acquaint oneself with the science behind our body and mind acknowledging fully that it is very complex and beyond reach of any single individual.

I believe that Sin/s with reference to Sex here, as a very concept resides in the mind of a person who commits them.

What is Sin? Do sexual thoughts amount to Sin, such that they must be overcome?
When ever you feel you are guilty of something a Sin is most probably done or in the happening. It is most important to acknowledge the sin commited by oneself and utmost important to forgive oneself too.
Please mark here I have said forgive but not forget. Forgiving is for oneself and forgetting best avoided to avoid repeating the very Ku-Karma or DushKarma. Penance/Paschyatap happens simultaneously as one acknowledges his or her sins.
For forgiving oneself the Nama or Nama Smaran of any diety you believe in should be done for quicker recovery.

Kama in India has been illustrated yeards ago as a science and art to achieving sexual pleasure to the fullest thereby oneness with the partner and experiencing a heavenly bliss. It should of course be with the partner who has sworn allegiance for life/lives.

Why is Sex as a subject to be more widely and openly discussed such a taboo in our great country where scriptures of Ramayana and Bhagwad Gita have evolved. Have we yet to realize that good and bad go along as two sides of a coin. Hypocrisy about sex at large along with low education and certain constricting traditions (I am not against our Hindu Traditions) has led to immense population explosion in our country. Our culture imbibes of religious values, yet we keep a closed eye on more important issues such as population control and the need for better sexual education.

It is obvious that curtailing or suppressing sexual feelings leads to more intense and repeated sexual activity. How does it tantamount to Sin? It would be like keeping a person hungry and blaming him of overeating which again is bad for health and a bad Karma. Kama should be thought of as another important Karma and Dharma to satisfy one's need along with his or her spouse.

The BIBLE, followed by Christians at large also has mentioned "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife and thou shalt not commit adultry" This says it all. We must remember that people at large are more responsible for the immoral or moral behavior, be it west or east.

If people in the Western nations have different ideology about sex (particularly free sex as some sections of world think) let them have those. Free sex or illegitimate sex is taken care of by Mother Nature God.

How?
AIDS is one of the most dreaded diseases that is sexually transmitted. I firmly believe that the very act of haywire sexual partner choice and thereby illegitimate sexual activity is automatically counter checked. It is unfortunate that the loyal partner too gets affected in this process. One cannot but call it as bad destiny for the loyal one. The slightest act of infidelity leads to AIDS and suffering as living hell to see the loved non-sinner loyal partner too suffer for one's own mistake. If nature is a form of GOD and GOD it is, then it has already taken its course.


Answers to certain questions such as the one mentioned here must be counter checked for current day relevance.

To find out more you can search wikipedia on "Ethic_of_reciprocity"  It will make good reading for the soul, and would hopefully give more insights which in turn would lead to better mind control.

-- Prabhu "Asim".

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Shree Krishna
 
One of the common quality of a sadhak is jovialness. A sadhak should normally have very peculiar sense of humor. Gita wants a sadhak to inculcate in himself a sense of humor. It helps immensely in facing the viccissitudes of world and is called an austerity of mind in Gita. In fact more advanced a sadhak becomes, more jovial he becomes. Reason is that he has seen the futility and temporaryness of creation. What else he can do except laughing out? The complaint of Naaradji Maharaj is , however, not justified. Jee Jee also wrote that Krishna is hubby of all hubbies and wives. Moreover Krishna is genderless. Hence Naaradji can fantasise till he is thrown out of room by Devi Laxmiji and Naarad's entry into Vishnu Loka is permanently banned. . She is very possessive to Narain. Narain ! Narain !! Indeed, females have special concessions granted to them by God. They deserve to have those concessions. My pranaams to all of them.
 
 Swami Rupesh Kumar
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Dear one and all,
  All those who have replied are correct here. How one may ask. Each has reached their level of spiritual growth and one can see this in their various replies. Each reply shows various spiritual levels of growth. I would like all who have so far replied to this question truthfully to think whether it would be possible to think that there is only one kind of person in this world! Thank you all for all of your inputs as this has made me intellectually wiser on a vital topic.

  Prashanth Thirukkonda


PRIOR POSTING

Namaste devotees!
>
> Question: How to overcome the sexual thoughts (KAMA)?

> To overcome desire for sex deals with controlling instability of mind
It is the attachment (Raga) of the mind to the world which is responsible for misfortunes.Although concentration of mind will lead to accomplishment (Siddhiya) but so long as there is attachment to the world there cannot be God-Realization. When this attachment is given up from the heart, there will be freedom from shackles of birth and death as well as distresses because attachment is the cause of all distress.
Our attraction to pleasures hinders our attainment for God Realization. There is a great necessity for strivers to know that attraction and attachment leads to the shackles of birth and death...Attachment leads to bondage.
A man perpetrates a sin when he has pride of his own and a desire for sensual pleasure.
Why does a man commit a sin even though he does not want to do so?
Lord Krsna replies that a man commits a sin because he has a desire for sensual pleasures and accumulation of wealth. So long as this desire continues he will continue committing a sin.
catherine andersen(we are Gods Only and only God is ours)

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Dear Sadaks,
How I could over come is, on looking at some one I immediately think of my sister or mother or daughter or grandchild. All people will match one of these. Earlier when I saw some beautiful woman, I was able to see a similar structured old lady. This tells me the change in whole creation from flowers to humans. When I can get changeless state then why go behind changing state.
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan
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Narain ! Narain !!
 
Sheer injustice Sister Shashikalaji  !! You have given excellent formula for females but what about males? Do they have no choice except becoming monkey faced? You can take Krishna as hubby but what about males? Narain ! Narain !!  RANAJEE KO KAUN VICHARE ! So what do you say sadhaks regarding this injustice?
What about fantasies of males?
 
Narain! Narain !!
 
Naarad N Maharshi

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Shree Hari   Ram Ram 

Dear Naaradji Maharaj,  Namaste!  Pranaam!  Namaskaar!  Narayana ! 

Narayanajee!  Ramjee!  Our Mirabai taught us there is only ONE PURUSHOTTAM  GIRIDHAR GOPAL JEE!!!  Since when did you claim to take that role jee? What has  penetrated  this "chanchal"  monkey mind? ...Maharajji !!!   Ramjee!!!

Narayana!  Narayana!  Narayana! 

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PRIOR POSTING

Jai Hanuman

Well, to renounce physically is easy but "mentally" or from the perspective of "thoughts" , it is rather challenging. Every creature has this desire. The best way is to merge this desire subtly unto the desire for company of God. Gopis did the same. Mirabaai did exactly the same. She married by thoughts with Lord Krishna. "Maai mhane supanaa maa , paranya re Dinanath" (O Mom, I got married with Dinanath in dreams) . Any fantasy of a company with Paramatma is legitimate. As you associate with Him, He reciprocates. That is "Raas" !!

Consider the following bhajan:

Aaj sajan mohe ang lagalo, janam saphal ho jaaye ! Hriday ki peeda deh ki agni sab sheetal ho jaaye!!

O Dear (Paramatma) ! Today embrace me in your arms so that the very purpose of human birth is achieved. So that the pains of heart and fire of body extinguish !!

HOW IT IS DONE? SWAMIJI FORMULA !! The bhajan continues:

Mohe Apna banalo ! Girdhar, Natwar..... Mohe apna banalo !!

Mori baanh pakad , main hoon janam janam ki pyaasi ! Mori pyaas bujhado ! Natwar Girdhar
mori pyaas bujhado !! Main hoo antar ghat tak pyaasi ! Prem sudha more saanwaria ... Saanwaria.... Prem sudha itni barsaado jag jal thal ho jaaye !

Aaj sajan mohe ang lagalo janam saphal ho jaye !!

Mohe apna banalo ! Mohe apna banalo !!

Become mine, O Girdhar. Make me yours , O Natwar . Please hold me by arms, (O Lord) because I am thirstly for ages and eons (birth upon birth). Please quench my thirst. O Natwar ! O Girdhar !! I am thirsty from deep within .

(O Lord) Please pour so much nectar of love that the entire earth becomes filled with nectar only.

O Dear (Paramatma) ! Today embrace me in your arms so that the very purpose of human birth is achieved. So that the pains of heart and fire of body extinguish !!

O Lord, make me yours. Become mine- Please !!

Nothing wrong in these sentiments towards Him - irrespective of whether you consider your hubby to be yours or not. Krishna is hubby of all hubbies and wives. Nothing wrong, even if in those sentiments subtle desire of physical union is hidden. Mirabaai had that in her. She therefore got into the loving embrace of Lord Krishna with otherwise MORTAL PHYSICAL BODY !! She had the desire of union with God with this life body- a subtle, deep within desire. God reciprocated her. There is nothing wrong in having such sentiments as effectively the sentiments get surrendered to Him. This according to me, is an answer to the Q as far as females are concerned. For males, let them search for solution.

Says Mirabaai:

Mira ke Prabhu nirgun naagar, Ranaji ko kaun vichaare !

Mira's hubby is nirgun (attributeless) Krishna ! Who cares for (gunwaan, attributeful) Ranaji ( that birth hubby of Mirabaai) ?

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala

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Hari Om

Sex is necessary to continue with the creation. Hence mating with the sole object of reproduction with your legitimate spouse is "dharma" . God resides only in that "kama" which is in accordance with Dharma. BUT only with motive of getting children and no other motive. Sense organs should not be given freedom under the disguise of BG 7:11. For "bhog", indulgence into sex is not part of BG 7:11 ! Only with "shubh bhavas" (auspicious intentions) , as per Scriptures and lok maryaada and with the SOLE purpose of giving birth to another Jeeva , if mating is done then God resides there.

That does not mean God is not prevalent in illicit sex. He is there too, but then He meets you invariably in the form of hells.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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Shree Krishna
 
Typical topic ! Basically, the Laws of Nature should be respected. There has to be a discipline. In animals it is clearly visible. There are seasons for them of mating. But humans - Raam ! Raam !! Raam !!! A lot of sadhaks have drawn comfort from a sloka of Gitaji - 7/11. That raises the topic, what is "dharmic" and what is "adharmic". Now "dharmic" has only to be what is your duty. Being a gruhastha, you are entitled to create children. Nature wants you to do so. Hence union with legitimate spouse, and with the intention of giving birth to children only can be said to be "dharmic". But I must say that in today's world it is unadherable, by and large. But when it comes to sadhaks- what is impossible? If not possible, then at least do that with lesser frequencies. Trillions of jeevas come out of one union and die. There is a tremendous memory loss entailed. For students, brahmcharis and widows it is sin. For a gruhustha, it is ok provided you dont spoil your antahkarana by excessively indulging into it. For sadhaks - ONLY FOR REPRODUCTION, and for nothing else.
 
Swami Rupesh Kumar
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Narain ! Narain !!
 
No ! ONLY FOR PRODUCING CHILDREN !! Narain ! Narain !! To make other happy, if you indulge into it, then you have to ensure that you dont derive any pleasure out of it, and keep chanting Narain ... Narain ! That is practically not possible. Hence that is trick of the mind played as usual to entice you into bhoga. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would never approve that for Sadhaks. Refer Gita 2:60 ! But many have referred Gita 7:11 instead. Narain ! Narain !! Fact is that it is the most difficult austerity for a human being. There is not much wrong, but then the losses outweigh pleasures in both medium and long run. Since I am addressing sadhaks of this divine forum therefore only I must say again - No ! Only for producing children !!
 
As far as conquering this is concerned : SAAVDHANI HI SAADHANA HAI ( Be alert always) . Even my Gurudev, real Maharishi Naarad ( mine is only name, I am referring to the real one) inspite of being in company of Narain got careless and lost quite a bit in the process. His becoming monkey faced is now in the eternal Scriptures of Hindu Dharma. REMAIN ALERT. Miraji Dass  has given an excellent methodology to conquer. Follow the same with determination.
 
Narain ! Narain !!

Naarad N Maharishi
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Pranaam.
 
When you deny yourself and try to suppress desire, it comes back harder to you. Meaning that suppressing something does not make it go away--it compounds it. To a student/young person, Kama comes to you when there are hormone changes going on in your body. This change has to be harness and channelled into the correct direction and sports are one of the ways that this energy can be channelled. To a Grihast, Kama is just one of the Natural paths of life and it should not be denied nor scorned when it is just natural. It is natural to have feelings of Kama for your Spouse. To have a good physical relationship with your spouse is one of the blessings in life. It is an expression of love and affection. When it is forced upon or demanded from then it becomes something adharmic. When Kama becomes an obsession too then it is a problem.Yoga and physical activities help to channel energies and will help. When it is obsessive, professional counselling is needed and one must not hesitate to seek help for this as it is a mental problem that needs the guidance and help of those qualified to help.
 
Regards,
Nanda

TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)
Pranaam.
 
When you deny yourself and try to suppress desire, it comes back harder to you. Meaning that suppressing something does not make it go away--it compounds it. To a student/young person, Kama comes to you when there are hormone changes going on in your body. This change has to be harness and channelled into the correct direction and sports are one of the ways that this energy can be channelled. To a Grihast, Kama is just one of the Natural paths of life and it should not be denied nor scorned when it is just natural. It is natural to have feelings of Kama for your Spouse. To have a good physical relationship with your spouse is one of the blessings in life. It is an expression of love and affection. When it is forced upon or demanded from then it becomes something adharmic. When Kama becomes an obsession too then it is a problem.Yoga and physical activities help to channel energies and will help. When it is obsessive, professional counselling is needed and one must not hesitate to seek help for this as it is a mental problem that needs the guidance and help of those qualified to help.
 
Regards,
Nanda

TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

 
Point for Maintaining Brahmacharya (Celibacy)
by Swami Nirmalananda Giri
Occasionally I receive letters from spiritual aspirants asking me for advice on the subject of brahmacharya. The following are pointers which are essential for the establishment of brahmacharya.
1) Daily meditation and constant japa is the essential foundation of brahmacharya. The japa and meditation of Om cause the subtle forces known as prana to rise upward. Those who become adept in these spiritual practices will become "urdhvareta yogis" those in whom the sexual energies flow upward and become transmuted into spiritual energies.
2) Satsanga, the company of holy people or at least those who are aspiring to holiness is extremely helpful in the maintenance of brahmacharya. If you know like-minded people, then meet with them regularly for spiritual study and conversation. It is not uncommon among both Hindus and Buddhists for spiritual aspirants to meet daily for meditation.
If you do not know any other spiritual aspirants "and this is not uncommon here in the West"then keep satsanga with saints and masters by reading their lives and teachings and keeping their pictures in your home. Holy images of divine forms are also beneficial.
Every day listen to spiritual music. Such music should be soothing and reflectiveâ€"not the raucous banging and clanging that many shallow and worldly Christians and Hindus like. It is good to listen to devotional music, but shun merely emotional music, for it is linked to lower desires, no matter how "holy" the words.
3) Avoid asatsanga "the company of the unholy and the worldly" in the form of people who have no interest in spiritual life, as well as books, magazines, television, radio, and motion pictures that are centered on material consciousness. Absolutely avoid those things who deal with the subject of sex or depict sexually suggestive (or outright) matters or images.
4) Avoid casual association with members of the opposite sex. Never be socially alone with a member of the opposite sex. This is an absolute.. Make no exceptions based on seemingly spiritual character, age, or intention. When an older woman tells you that she is your "mother" run away! The same thing applies when a man tells a woman that he is her "father." This goes on in both India and America, including close "and private" association of men with female gurus and of women with male gurus. No one knows what impulses carried over from previous lives  "many even from centuries past"are lying not far beneath the surface of the conscious mind, waiting to manifest.  "Spiritual" friendships with members of the opposite sex are doors to disaster. I have seen it over and over. Even in my early teen years I watched "spiritual" associations inevitably turn into sexual associations. And that had usually been the intention from the first moment. If what I have said does not convince you, at least I have discharged my responsibility.
5) Avoid absolutely any person or thing that argues against your aspiration to brahmacharya or tries to persuade or force you into sexuality in any form. The "just try it once/for a bit" people are worse than tigers. Run for your life literally.
6) I have warned you about external factors that harm the life of a brahmachari, but the biggest threat or danger comes from your own mind and impulses. Ruthlessly cut off all overt or oblique thoughts of sex when they rise in your mind. Note what "innocent" subjects of thought "somehow" end up in ideas of sex and banish them the moment they appear in the future.
7) What about "physical needs" and "bodily urges"? Never let them be an excuse for wavering in your ideal. But you must keep the body clean and pure to help you in maintaining brahmacharya.
8) Continuing the previous subject: Diet is an essential factor for the brahmachari and the yogi. Diet is a form of spiritual culture as well as physical culture. There should be total avoidance of animal protein in any form and to any degree whatsoever, and this includes dairy products. Gandhi saw over and over that animal flesh, animal fats, and dairy products were detrimental to brahmacharya, that movements of lust could be attributed to the physical effects of their use. (This also happens to be the opinion of the Eastern Orthodox Church, especially the monks who watch their minds.) This Hindus screamed "blasphemy" because of their attitude toward cows, but the truth cannot be changed by hysteria. Become not just a vegetarian but a vegan: Eat a diet that is free from all animal protein and fat, dairy products, sugar, and caffeine. Abstain totally from nicotine and alcohol.
To learn the scientific and practical basis of what I have advised, see the books of Dr. Neal Barnard and the information put out by the Physicians Committe For Responsible Medicine,  Dr. Michael Klaper and Dr. McDougall
9) Food for the mind in the form of spiritual reading is also a tremendous help to the brahmachari. Two books are especially important for the aspiring brahmachari: Meditation and Spiritual Life by Swami Yatiswarananda and Practice of Brahmacharya by Swami Sivananda. This latter book can be downloaded free from the Divine Life Society website. It is #31 on the list.
Read the books of many traditions and teachers on spiritual life, taking what is useful and leaving aside what is not.
10) What if you fail in some area or to some degree"or completely? Just keep on trying and be more vigilant. Do not let the ego or foolish associates or 'authorities" convince you that it is hopeless, you should not even try, you will not be able, blah, blah, blah. Multitudes of holy people have struggled, some have failed at times, but ALL HAVE SUCCEEDED. So will you.
11) Finally, know that God is on your side. And remember these words of the Bhagavad Gita: Though a man be soiled with the sins of a lifetime, let him but love me, rightly resolved, in utter devotion: I see no sinner, that man is holy.
Holiness soon shall refashion his nature to peace eternal; O son of Kunti, of this be certain: the man that loves me, he shall not perish.
"You find yourself in this transient, joyless world. Turn from it, and take your delight in me. Fill your heart and mind with me, adore me, make all your acts an offering to me, bow down to me in self-surrender. If you set your heart upon me thus, and take me for your ideal above all others, you will come into my Being." (Bhagavad Gita 9:34)
 
VIJAYANJI
 
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Pranaam.
 
When you deny yourself and try to suppress desire, it comes back harder to you. Meaning that suppressing something does not make it go away--it compounds it. To a student/young person, Kama comes to you when there are hormone changes going on in your body. This change has to be harness and channelled into the correct direction and sports are one of the ways that this energy can be channelled. To a Grihast, Kama is just one of the Natural paths of life and it should not be denied nor scorned when it is just natural. It is natural to have feelings of Kama for your Spouse. To have a good physical relationship with your spouse is one of the blessings in life. It is an expression of love and affection. When it is forced upon or demanded from then it becomes something adharmic. When Kama becomes an obsession too then it is a problem.Yoga and physical activities help to channel energies and will help. When it is obsessive, professional counselling is needed and one must not hesitate to seek help for this as it is a mental problem that needs the guidance and help of those qualified to help.
 
Regards,
Nanda

TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)
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PRIOR POSTING

If one is married
One has to control to the extent that it is within dharma
One has to control to the extent that it is not an imposition on the wife
Surrender to HIM  and continuation of what is considered best would bring His grace( of course Grace  is always there- - bringing is only in the sense we recognise it). Then instead of we leaving sex .it would leave us.
pranams
podury
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It is Vitamin K, certain amount of kama is accepted and expected as one of the 4 purushaarthas (goals) of life. Lord says in the Bhagavad-Gita that "He is kama, that which is sanctioned by Dharma or not opposed to Dharma.

Dharma aviruddho bhooteshu
kaamah asmi bhartarShabha||

KST (Koti Sreekrishna)
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shree Hari:

Ram Ram Ramjee Shankarjee!

If we desire to draw pleasure from any act of 'kaam', then we should become indifferent (upekshaa) and if we desire to give pleasure and satisfaction to our spouse through any act of 'kaam', then it is to be taken as serving (sewa) to satisfy the other.  If there arise any desires of 'kaam' other than these two, disown the desire. that's all. none can overcome 'kaam' as Paramaatmaa wanted Arjun to annihilate 'nit veiree kaam' not to overcome it.

Ram Ram Shankarjee!

kachchaa saadhaka Sarvottam.
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Namaste
 
At the risk of offending some sadhaks, and I apologize profusely and
sincerely for such, I wish to play the devil's advocate and ask:
 
Is it forbidden to harbour sexual thoughts?
 
This question, or variations of it, are asked by many, especially by younger Hindus.
 
Respectfully, I submit not in all cases. Love, sex, and romance are part of the daily lives of people, except the revered sadhkas who have been able to move beyond this level.
 
Of course, illicit sex, lust and perverted behavior are certainly not sattvic and should be condemned.
 
In the above, and anything I write and believe in, I could be wrong and stand corrected by
revered sadhaks.
 
Ram Ram
Deosaran Bisnath
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Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar

Kaama is Nature`s plan for reproduction of your own specis. If it were not
associated with divine pleasure, females and males would not have mated to
propogate the reproduction.
Animals mate only in their heat season, that too till the female gets
pregnant...then she does not have the desire to mate and no male will approach
her.
But with humans these days, sex seems to be only for pleasure. Great thinkers of the past (GTPs)have
realised this and they proposed several religious vratas to avoid sex. The
desires can be controlled by food. Satwik food is desirable. By age, the bodily
desires subside, but mental desires remain...one has to develop spiritual
thinking and sexual pleasures should be strictly restricted to the marital
bond..

...Gee Waman
--------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Respected All,

 When my mind gets entangled in sexual desires, I recite the following lines and it helps:

 Prabhu ji, man mera bharmawai.

Ghat ghat ka pani peewai, par pyasa rah jawai.

Nari tan ki mrigtrishna mein, bar bar phans jawai.

Chikni kaya dekh lubhawai, larh ghani tapkawi.

Naye naye ras ka chaska iska, naye naye saang rachawai.

Nath aap upchar karo kucch, sant yahi batlawai

'Chand Suresh' thaka, main meri kucch na par basawi.

Prabhu ji, man mera bharmawai. 

English translation : 

"Lord, my mind is making a fool of itself and me.

It goes from pond to pond to quench its lusty thirst, but always remains thirsty.

It runs after the mirage of  women’s bodies and suffers in the wild goose chase.

It is obsessed with the  feminine charms and keeps on oozing saliva.

It runs in the quest of a new sensual pleasures and adopts many new tricks to get them.

O Lord, as the saints have advised â€" only You can cure it of its meanings chase for lusts.

Also because, despite all efforts by Suresh to control it, he is feeling tired and helpless.

Lord, my mind is making a fool of itself and me." 

Kind regards in the feet of all sadhaks, 

Suresh C Sharma

----------------------------------------------------------------

It is Vitamin K, certain amount of kama is accepted and expected as one of the 4 purushaarthas (goals) of life. Lord says in the Bhagavad-Gita that "He is kama, that which is sanctioned by Dharma or not opposed to Dharma.

Dharma aviruddho bhooteshu
kaamah asmi bhartarShabha||

KST (Koti Sreekrishna)
--------------------------------------------------------
|| RAM ||

If we change the sentiments and where we do not make ourselves the center of "kaamna" (desires) to fulfil our own desires and instead see towards the fulfillment of other's desires (that are not against scriptures / dharma), if we do for Bhagwaan, with the sentiments of service, if we do for those we love, then surely it will be very easy to overcome any self-centered desires (sexual thoughts etc).   When the sentiments are of serviing others, you will ovecome those desires.  And it will also give joy and cheerfulness.  
 
Madan Kaura  (posted Mar 2004)
--------------------------------------------------------
 
It is due to suppression that desires (sexual thoughts) are not going away.  It is not from reducing desires through supression / effort that these sexual thoughts / desires are reduced.  It is when these desires itself go away from within that all will be alright.  You have considered the suppression of desires as diminishing of desires.  From within there is desires but by listening to spiritual discourses etc we try to supress these.  These desires have to go away from within, then only there will be peace, there will be joy, there will be bliss.    
ram ram
Sunil Brhamchari 
--------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

Dear Shankar,

First of all the respected MODERATOR, has offered you a prayer of Swamiji's.

You have said very little really. For instance a newly married couple often think of little else, but as the responsibilities of life places demands upon then, the ardor slowly weakens.

Kaamdeva seems in many ways similar to Eros, (probably  the Greeks fashioned Eros on Kaamadeva, too many similarities).

From the Greece Index:
Eros is the first type of love we are all familiar with. Our English word Erotica is derived from the word Eros. [Sadly, some people never get passed this type of love and base their relationships purely on sexual attraction. This is the type of love that merchandisers tend to play on with the public trying to get us to buy their products to make us more attractive to the opposite sex.]

Dwell upon the bracketed section of the paste above.

Clearly you are troubled, otherwise, why ask for help?(Always a good sign, seeking help).
If you are wandering around with sex on the brain, no matter what,
it could drive you into diabolical situations, or at the least blind you from 'Divine Love'.

Understanding that one has a problem if it is genuine, is half the battle.
Bhagavad Gita Chapter 9:
30. Even if the most sinful worships me, with devotion to none else, he too should indeed be regarded as righteous, for he has rightly resolved.
31. Soon he becomes righteous and attains to eternal peace; Arjuna, know you for certain that my devotee is never destroyed!

The greatest healer of all is 'The Divine Beloved', thus turning to HIM, can heal your mind. In fact the first step you have already taken.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike (Keenor).

---------------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

So be it... let thoughts come... but know with certainty that they will go away... whatever comes will go away... These will definitely disperse away ... because this desire is PERISHABLE, thoughts of it are PERISHABLE, the object of desire is PERISHABLE, the body / senses are PERISHABLE... they only appear real and permanent because of our close association with body as  "I" ,"Me" and "Mine". 

A questions was asked to Swamiji - 

Question: What should an aspirant do if sexual thoughts appear ?
Swamiji: One should firmly believe that passion is not permanently in him.   Sexual thoughts come and go, but he (the Self) remains the same.  Just as a dog enters the house and leaves it later, it is not the dog's house, nor does the dog belong to the house. So, the aspirant should believe thus and not be swayed by passionate desires. Lord Krishna says in the Gita "Tayorna vashamaa gacchyete." (Gita 3:34); "One should not come under their sway." 

Meera Das

Ram Ram


----------------------------------------------------------------

The mind is like a monkey. The Gita says that we can never be unoccupied. It is only through sadhna, sewa, satsang and meditation that we can connect with the Self, after which we will realise that our true nature is not to get entangled in maya or worldly pleasures but to unite our Soul with the Parmatma, or the Higher Self. For a householder, for the first 25 years he is a Brahamchari, next 25 he is a Grihast or married, next 25 years is Banaprast or gradual withdrawing from worldly activities along with spouse and the last 25 years is to be spent in Sanyas or solitude like a Sadhu. Therefore here is a time and a place for everything.

Hari Shanker Deo

------------------------------------------------------------------

yeh ajib baat hai surprized bhi hota hoo kyo yeh nahi janta par itna to kah hi sakta hoo ki aaj education itna bard gaya hai computer hai hamne moon aur magal tak ki yatra kar rahe hai science ne hame anek uplabdhiya di par soche ki jaha human being ne Ram Krisna Budha Mahavir Hajarat mohaama, Jesus Gurunak birsa and so many god diye hai per ye sabhi AAj ke yug mei janam nahi liya ye sabhi thousands years hundreds years ho gaye jinke lakho followers hai ye god kahe jate hai per aaj ish tarah ke manav janam nahi le rahe iska sidha matlab hai ki manav ne kahi na kahi jaroor bhool ki hai aur anay log god ki series mei nahi aate ha ye jarror hai ki kuch log jaroor apne aap ko god ki shreni mei rakhte hai
cont.
Jai Manav
Ranjan Kumar

Shree Hari Ram Ram 

Ranjanji... your response in Hindi, does not appear to be directly related to the question being asked, as we understand it. Please let us know if you feel otherwise...  From Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Prayer to God that was shared by Swamiji ...

O Lord? How do I save myself from thoughts of enjoyment of sensual pleasures?
How do I free myself from the world? How do I get inclined towards you? How do I
get involved in You and You alone? Let me not go anywhere except to You. Let me
be free from the worldly sufferings. Let me not get stuck in the worldly
pleasures. I feel myself helpless in renouncing the worldly pleasures. The
worldly pleasures, praise and fame seem so pleasing. I do not know how to escape
them. I do not know the way out. Have Grace O Lord. O My Lord - I take refuge at
Your Feet. I preach to others but cannot free myself from the thoughts and
desire for mundane worldly pleasures.

How do I overcome these thoughts of sensual pleasures? Lord, let me have only
love for You. I can be free from them only by Your Grace. Let me be immersed in
only You. I do not even have a strong enough desire to overcome sense pleasures,
and to get engaged in You. I can see the world is full of sorrows but I am still
unable to renounce my attachment for it. I am not able to do it - to be free of
desires. How should I do it? What should I do? The true longing and want for You
is lacking - I do not know why?

You have showered a lot of Grace on me. Due to my conceit and pride I do not
realise and recognise it. They are obstacles in my path and can be removed only
by Your Grace. Be Gracious enough so that I can take refuge at Your feet. I
cannot ask for this from anyone else. I can see only You. Let me be inclined
only towards Your Feet. I do not even know how to truly pray. There is no true
desire - I am stuck and only You can take me out. I cannot get out by my
strength. Have Grace O Lord.

Good saints have said not to take their flaws and sins to Your heart. You are
even minded to all. Be Gracious to such a sinner as I. O Lord - Shower Your
Grace.

From one of the old pravachans of Swami Ramsukhdasji
Ram Ram
------------------------------------------------------
GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: PLEASE -

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2. Quote Gitaji/scriptures wherever possible..
3. Limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the
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4. Be as concise, to the point, respecting sadhaka's time.
5. Focus on subject at hand only.
6. Do not include links to the other sites; personal information (Ph #, address
etc) or personalize message to particular person
7. All responses may not be posted and moderator at his discretion, may modify
the posting.
8. Please keep in mind novices, youth, westerners, non-
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bracketed.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
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[gita-talk] Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What is the logic ?



My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural
power called "God" ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate
His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days
need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we
can establish that God exists. If some body says say :
1. Where is God I have never seen Him?
2. Who has seen Him?
3. How is He?
4. If I dont know how do I accept?
5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so
that we may indulge in goodness.
6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics
which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the
thread?

Sarphod Tabalchi
------------------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Chapter ten of Bhgavata Gita explains every aspects of Almighty God
No more explanations required
 
Thanks
truly yours
 
S S Bhatt
----------------------------------------------------------------------

" Ahankaram balam darpam, kamam krodham parigraham,
Vimucya nirmamah santo, brahma bhuyaya kalpate" ( gita 18, 53).
Which means " one who is deyached , free from false ego, false strength, pride, ownership and one who is always peaceful, such a person is eligible for brahma swarupam."

When one is free from false ego and becomes non attached to material things, then that one reached " brahma bhuta stage".

A pure devotee goes still further and becomed engaged in devotional service. Pure devotional service is the key to attain the lord.

There are examples to prove
God's presence. Sant tukaram went back to lord's kingdom on garuda vahana', sent by pandu ranga. Composer singer annamacharya saw lord venkateswara.

Hare krishna.
Prasad iragavarapu m.d

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sutra 1

Parambrahma (Spirit or God) is everlasting, complete, without beginning or end.
It is one, indivisible Being.

The Eternal Father, God, Swami Prarmbrahma, is the only Real Substance, Sat, and
is all in all in the universe.

Why God is not comprenhensible;
Man possesses eternal faith and believes intuitively in the existence of a
Substance, of which the objects of sense - sound, touch, sight, taste and smell,
the component parts of theis visible world - are but properties.  As man
identifies himself with his material body, composed of the aforesaid properties,
he is able to comprhend by these impercect organs these properties only, and not
the Substance to which these properties belong.  The Eternal Father, God, the
only Substance in the Universe, is therefore not comprehensible by man of this
material world, unless he becomes divine by lifting his self above this creation
of Darkness or Maya. See Hebrews 11:1 and John 8:28.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not
see."

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the son of man (human ego),
then shall ye know that, I am he."

Sutra 2

In it (Parambrahma) is the origin of all kowledge and love, the root of all
power and joy.

Prakriti or Nature of God;
The Almighty Force, Shakti, or in other words the Eternal Joy, Ananda, which
produces the world; and the Omniscient Feeling, Chit, which makes this world
conscious, demonstrate the Nature, Prakriti, of God the Father.

How God is comprehended.

As man is the likness of God, directing his attention inward he can comprehend
within him the said Force and Feeling, the sole properties of his Self - the
Force Almighty as his will, Vasana, with enjoyment, Bhoga; and the Feeling
Omniscient as his Consciousness, Chetana, that enjoys, Bhokta. See Genesis 1:27.

"In this way God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he
him; male and female created he them."

So says Swami Sri Yukteswarji in his book, "The Holy Science".

Haley Haynes

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sarphod Tabalchi, you have raised some very pertinent questions, which clearly do away with the concept of an anthropomorphic just and merciful Father – one is reminded of the Epicurean Riddle:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot;  Or He can, but does not want to.
If He wants to, but cannot, He is impotent.  If He can, but does not want to, He is wicked.
If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

The irrational, the tissue of whose brain is of a coarse quality, will try to offer some very stupid explanations to this riddle, leaning on the spurious law of Karma.

I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition than to facts which lie in hand – this is something Charles Darwin had bemoaned as well. Raja Ram Mohan Roy had hoped that Western education would
rid Indians of blind faith: he was wrong. Western education has succeeded only in creating a profusion of literate fools.

I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it" – this disgusted me so much that I just threw that useless book away. Science has done half the job to cure people
from the disease of God and Religion; the other half can be achieved by reading Western Philosophy. I would definitely attach more weight to men of science and logic than to the buffoons who write about Gods and demons bringing rain. If
bitten by a venomous snake, where would you rush to – a modern hospital stocking the anti-venom, or some dim-witted idiot who would parrot out Scriptures in an attempt to cure you? Until modern science developed snake anti venom, and many
other cures, our Scriptures and obsolete medical techniques were quite ineffective and useless when it came to most medical problems.

"God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)" – this quote by Catherine Anderson just proves Epicurus right – it means God is harmful bacteria, virus, and all the evil that pervades the world.

If anyone really wishes to enlighten themselves, I suggest you stop reading trash and go for books by great men like David Hume and Arthur Schopenhauer.

P Srivastava

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari   Ram Ram 

Srivastavaji,  Namaskaar!  Please share with us if you have read the Bhagavad Gita.   (By read, we mean -  not just superficially scanning...but questioning, inquirying and seeing if the answers are available in it).....  

Simply speaking.... if we have not done DNA testing of our father... we are living in blind faith....  As we recollect - ARthur Schopenhauer was deeply influenced by the Bhagavad Gita, he has made comments to that effect.  

Education feeds the mind/intellect which are insentient.  It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain  the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means.    Ram Ram  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God is an Anglo-Saxon noun and refers to a Male (as opposed to Goddess), Creator Being. There is no provable God (or Goddess).
 
As Hindus, what do we know? Tat Tvam Asi. This Mahavakya means that we are No-Thing (Tat). This Tat is also referred to as ParaBrahman and sometimes Nirguna Brahman. What can be said about Tat? Nothing. "Mouna vakya ParaBrahaman tattwam."
 
Tat may also be defined as Om Tat Sat(chidananda). This Saguna Brahaman experience is provable. Energy/Light/Bliss is our Atmana. This we know. God we do not know. As Hindus, we have our Ishta Devatas and this good and this is personal. One does not (and cannot) have to prove the existence of our Ishta Devata. Thus, Hinduism is a monistic polymorphism and not the lesser understanding of Monotheism.
 
Swami Param
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari   Ram Ram
Swami Paramji,  Kindly explain what exactly is meant by monistic polymorphism.  Ram Ram 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 is obvious that there is NO GOD. The characters attributed to GOD are
Omnipresent
Omnipotent
Merciful
All Knowing.
There is so much misery and injustice in this world that either God does not know it in which case he is not all knowing, or he knows and does not do any thing about it. In that case he is not merciful. Or he can not do any thing then he is not omnipotent.
I take a recent case of a 10 years old girl being raped by her father. What was God doing?
It has been said that the girl was being punished for what she might have done in her previous life. How can a merciful God punish a child of ten ? In any case what she did in her previous life could not have been done if God did not will it to be done. If we agree that it was a punishment for some act for previous life than the father can not be blamed for the this act. He was only an instrument in the WILL of God.  Let us face it God is nothing but an inversion of Man to explain things he could not explain, create an absolute authority and may be give hope when there is none
arun sharma

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari   Ram Ram 

Arunji... have you read the Bhagavad Gita?  Paramatma is not the doer, nor a punisher !     There have been previous discussions on this subject... in Gita Talk...you can search by topic.     Ram Ram 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

To my beloved sadhaks,

Where is God? Who has seen Him? How is God? How do I accept Him? What logic points towards God? Let us look at Gita 7/19"After taking many births and acquiring the human form and realizing that God is Everything, should such a knower (Jnanavan) surrender to Me, indeed such a great soul is a rarity. "Repeat such a great soul is a rarity. My question is how can one not see God, who cannot be aware of where He is, how He is, but to accept Him is a good place to start and how to do this is by establishing a direct affinity for God.Everything is God. God has in simple words, expounded to us the innermost secrets of the hearts of great souls of Vasudev Sarvam. God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)
Bhagavan says(Gita 18/55)" After realizing my quintessence (Tattva) man immediately merges into Me."
Those who want to attain God do so by Discipline of Action, Knowledge and Devotion.For more info on God realization go to Swamiramsukhdasjis site and read on how to attain God with humility.
catherine andersen

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari:
Ram Ram.

By Grace of God these questions are on my computer:

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? God is in your mind. You can't see God with your eyes as mental conceptions are not seen by us.

2. Who has seen Him? Nobody ever declared he/she has seen God.

3. How is He? Nobody ever described how is God.

4. If I don't know how do I accept? If you don't know accept or don't accept, choice is yours.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles on us so that we may indulge in goodness. What harm is 
    there if you indulge in goodness? Indulge in goodness or not, choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for His existence. What are the logics which point towards the existence of God? from where to pick the thread? Existence of Existence (termed Tattva, Sattaa by Swamijee Shree Ramsukhdasjee) needs no basis for its existence. Existence of Existence is all logic and all illogic but they can't point towards Existence of Existence similarly as you can't mix water into water when you are under water only. You are the beginning and you are the end of the thread. Pick it up and go. You shall finish at the other end of thread and shall be surprised to experience that what you sought is the seeker. Vasudev: Sarvam. (Gita 7:19).

If you conceive God, you fail to experience the experience as experience is experience only (Swamijee in God IS Everything page 2 last para "Similarly in this world, men, animals, birds, trees, mountains, stones, bricks, sand, lime, earth etc. are of diverse kinds, yet what resides intrinsically within, has no form and that formless essence is God".).

Bandhu, if anything is easiest it is Realizing God (Existence, not any human with four hands etc they are NOT God as they don't reside in everything, they come and go.) Who is ever Realized as You can't deny your existence.
Ram Ram.

Kachcha Sadhaka Sarvottam.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

5 Fallacies & Realities about God
 
 Fallacies* Ego Consciousness
 Realities of Self Consciousness
1
 Humans believe that God needs something.
 Humans know that God needs nothing. God is beyond needs and demands.
 
2
 Humans believe that God can fail to get what He needs.
 Humans know that God can never fail to get what He does not need. He has no needs. God is his own measure beyond failures & successes.
 
3
 Humans believe that God has separated them from Him because they have not given Him what He needs.
 Humans know that God has integrated them from Him because they are God in human form. God is beyond form and non-form as one Living Consciousness.
 
4
 Humans believe that God still needs what He needs so badly that God now requires them, from their separated position, to give it to Him.
 Humans know that God never needs any thing from humans other that what they are and have. God is in human form.
 
5
 Humans believe that God will destroy them if they do not meet His requirements.
 Humans know for God there is no destruction and creation but infinite manifestations of energy of Living Consciousness. Dance of Living consciousness is appearance & disappearance of Physical Universe.
 


*Neale Donald Walsch (The New Revelations)

Sushil Jain

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

God is worshipped in 3 forms:
1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)
2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)
3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)

Goswami Tulsidasji has said
"NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI"
"The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand but
no one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes."

The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved by
logic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form of
Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logic
of conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.

But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,
Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.
They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-
Sanjivani etc.
If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these will
arise "In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If He
is deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help of
Sugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?...."

When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravan
decided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma has
taken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)
by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examination
and Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the end
result? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demons
alongwith Ravan.

That is why Goswamiji has said
"RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI"
"Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect."

Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) can
only be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is also
one form of Satsang.

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna
Dear Sarphod Uncle,

I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I have
used. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with your
intellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you are
a true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-
called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincere
apologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia
---------------------------------------------------------------
Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? No
suppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in the
air that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand party
of 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have to
do, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think of
God is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth but
think about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizing
power ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.
Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you means
each part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He is
colourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supreme
energy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust on
god.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling on
us.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needs
by pleading to your superior… He is That. And you say upon
fulfilling your wish - "thank God" What is that power that is
fulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilled
and often no by your effort

Hari Om,
nilesh popat mali,

----------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

To Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of its
kind across the globe, Satsanga Group!

It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfully
thanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and to
the world. An association of people like you, group like yours, is
or can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (
extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who has
seen/ touched the "dukhalayam" very closely, very wisely and won
over the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)
Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/
quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-
Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)
Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , that
real fire
brand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What a
sharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (
An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji Ramsukhdasji
Maharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels of
this divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. His
comments were innocent and correct.

Thanks Again
Sarphod Tabalchi
Raseeli Rani Tabalchi

-----------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak,
Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what my
Krishna says--

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!
Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : The
afflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment and
the wise.

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you are
using wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, which
itself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the difference
between Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everything
which is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnect
himself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,
senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped there
remains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....
From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothing
emerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my beloved
Krishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When we
see HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case of
Dropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as in
the case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculous
being, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in a
statue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,and
without forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our own
limited vision.
When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wish
to see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him in
everything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,
money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become non
existence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination in
His regime.

He just "IS". I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. Somewhere
Swamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this "IS" remains the same in both
the statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...How
blessed this human form is!!!

How divine this forum is!!!
Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !
Shivoham! Shivoham!!
With lots of Love,
A Sadhika
Sadhna Karigar
---------------------------------------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is an
object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that
scientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old
there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew
without scientific proof.
2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.
3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote
needs.
4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.
Still your if you fail- It Gods will.
5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so
that we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals as
shakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understand
it. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidance
you will progress.
6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics
which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the
thread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?
You want to make something you gather material and put your effort
to make project. So there is someone who is behind all and your
thinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan
---------------------------------------------------------------
Pranam

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you search
on "milkmiracle" You will see for your self.

bvm
Jai Shree Ram
---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For those
who yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; in
fact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!
Doubting God takes one nowhere.

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proof
of the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in the
sense of all these existing objects, you see.

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:
Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you see
love, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?
A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity has
revealed 'itself'.

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?
He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable in
that experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute among
the experiences.

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?
The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can't
see them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest in
answering these abstract questions.

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.
God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindness
etc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good future
and for building in them the moral character which saves our
society. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person can
see God.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THE
LOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?
We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God as
transcendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in the
disbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience while
born as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all those
things of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We can
afford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?
If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them the
spiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadutta
Maharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.
You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted to
share with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people the
best of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

Dr Shastry
-----------------------------------------------------------------
1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOT
an object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that
scientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old
there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew
without scientific proof.
2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when Sri
Krishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM as
God except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.
3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote
needs.
4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.
Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishna
with love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.
Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable to
tie up. It is the way you accept.
Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan
------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Jai Hanuman

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writing
regularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is Sister
Anita- absolutely correct and "really" .practical and therefore on
the path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !
O Daddy the Great ! Let such "Divinity" continue flowing unto this
GT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons to
exclaim with pleasure- "Brilliant" !

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make her
cry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? "Anguish
of your soul" is most of the times " your sin" - also ! Almost
Always!

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proof
that Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/
REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL-"KNOWLEDGE"?

No body, come what may, has been able to "prove" in the past, nor
can they do so in the present , nor will they be able to "prove"
that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of proving
that. If you can't "prove" the existence of your even this father on
earth, how can you prove the existence of your "eternal father"?

Reason: "Self" Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

"Acceptance"/ "Faith" / "Belief" - is the only remedy. If some body
wants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you Brother
Wilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in this
Satsanga forum!

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latest
message -

1 An Aussie !
2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in the
center. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

Above all -

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !
So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours of
posting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !
Yet so easily available !

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timely
and exactly ?

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse for
a long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about its
manifestation !! )

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! "DIVINE" !! Do you get us Mr
Sarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only "Sadhaks" !

Namaste Jee
Jee Jee
Shashikala
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Vyasji,

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi ji
is more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatory
comments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? is
Tabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If he
knows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, the
problem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know "ko
aham (who am I)"

May I quote from Shankara ? "KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA ME
JANANI KO ME TATAH" (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,
who is my mother and who is my father).

Kind regards,
Suresh C Sharma
------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Hari Om

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is no
thirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed by
you. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can "see" God, and
one who has thirst for world only, "sees" the world.

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can not
see- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which in
reality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can not
see God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear members,

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because I
didnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young in
this stage - by experience and by learning.
However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I should
at least share my feelings:

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -
all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children that
god is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us has
the responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,
looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in my
maid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs me
every time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me and
has made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -
who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see him
every day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise that
it was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime you
meet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection of
GOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.
2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of us
are in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.
And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined by
this supreme power, whom we call GOD.

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are not
able to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowable
force/energy - GOD.

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, your
neighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that light
in them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would be
there with you!

Anita Sharma
----------------------------------------------------------
Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little too
Aussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly you
would understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's clever
little dialog.

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.


See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).


Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,
The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:
Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,
Eons of eons vanished in a second,
Withered trees bloomed in fires,
Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,
Thusness scattered in sixty directions,
Space became Time, time became things,
Black Holes filled with Nirvana,
A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,
Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,
Many became One, One only, only One.
Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All Beings
Opened Her clouded Eye, to see:
Flowers in the Sky.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om.

Respected sir,
I've studied from my childhood that mother
is our first GOd.
We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.
Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?
If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,
I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided you
have the permission to see Krushna.
Rest in my next.
Hari Om.
With Regards,
Ushasridhar.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Jesus Says.
I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.
thanks
Wilson Kochukunju

------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whether
there is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has also
been answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.
But, the question has persisted till this day.

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma does
exist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond the
Universe. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Him
with his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, every
living being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-
intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things and
created wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anything
that is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,
is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a special
feature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time after
which it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. We
see planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. This
never ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation and
re-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

Yours sincerely,
Ram Bhai
---------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchiji
about I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellow
seeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as needed
to grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.
Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makes
so much difference in our understanding!
I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake up
and find all answers about Truth of God, this world and "you".
All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!
Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellow
sadhaks, I remain prayerful!
Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 


----------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
-Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,
I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on the
back of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of what
it is.
Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the false
reality reflected on the wall of the cave.
Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Is
this all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,
say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they have
nothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as it
were, to understand.

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems to
be a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and a
spiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth that
India had to give.

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

"Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousand
people starting with the words: "Sisters and Brothers of America...",
and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture with
standing
ovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes......."

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe you
could read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (If
you require any translation).

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of your
soul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,
do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, other
Sadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about that
which
does not exist etc.
Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. I
have,
I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cry
for him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, when
your heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The one
who has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.Sherphod
Vedanta/Upanashids.
1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, one
needs TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower
2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as a
temple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind has
electricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.
Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.
3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.
4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.
Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan
-------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sirphod

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or for
that matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give you
answers like you might be expected.

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a different
issue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru who
can help you. I do not see from your postings you have this
expectation, but the one below.

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could be
anohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

By the way you can come out with your real name.

Venu Komanduri

------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,
1. Where is God I have never seen Him?
It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by
our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.
If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are
many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.
Then after you never deny God.
2. Who has seen Him?
I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk
to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.
3. How is He?
He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my
existence. He wants everyone happy.
4. If I dont know how do I accept?
Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect
anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your
mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever
you want deny God.
5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so
that we may indulge in goodness.
If you know this much of God you should not deny God.
6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics
which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the
thread?
First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic
concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God
God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the
electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever
enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about
TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function
without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without
that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than
denying God.
Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

---------------------------------------------------------
Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji
We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an
opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all
sadhaks...in answering these.

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.
since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles
to understanding the truth
since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or
seeing God comes much later.....

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may
have gone through this period.
But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some
guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the
answers start looking meaningful........

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating
exercise on the questions first
for example:

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what
could be the place where it could be,
why it can not be hear with us?
Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself
repeatedly who am I?
Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so
contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?
What could it look like? What should it be?
Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't
know? Do I know all? How can I know more?
Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate
on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why
we need to fear the word God to be good?
Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What
is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets
have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning
exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start
listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best
wishes......Thank you....
Sushil Jain

-------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sarphod:

I have similar questions that you have.

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is
nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that
exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to
mankind yet)

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also
have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that
there is no GOD either.

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests
and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those
tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and
all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That
means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual
thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is
bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the
seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions
should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest
to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick
conclusions like "There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc.,"
because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right
sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying "I asked
a question which this forum is not able to answer"

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of
mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted
to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was
earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami
Vivekananda).

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have
questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,
one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels
of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A
RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be
fulfilled.

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such
time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

With a hope it might help you,
Sincerely,
Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying "I am very good". FYI! I was
not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You
don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.
Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your
logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called
you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,
Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think
over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for
this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your
prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to
prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we
can only give logics/rationale.

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not
respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can
you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita
Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to
be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any
shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude
you are defending it.

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing
judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me
think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has
correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open
mind.

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed
you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not
interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking
these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He
is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about
Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita
18.67)

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your
existence as "I AM", right? Then why can't you prove it with your
logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not
get any reply.

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia
------------------------------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "
flower of sky"- because it does not exist. You yourself said that.
You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked
about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in
this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

If you can do that then why did you not talk about "flower of sky"?
As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if
they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a
basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their
existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means
your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the
end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

God is "Param Pita" - our eternal father.

Clear?

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala

 

-------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji
is correct. You , yourself, are "sample" of God ! Because like God,
you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody "experiences" that -
I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about
experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not
existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any
test to determine whether you exist or not. You never
experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say
that "I don't know", but you can't say "I didn't exist" ! How can
you say so?

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your"self" to
be non existing. Non existence of your"self" has never come into
your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep
sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non
existent. But at the same time you experience directly the
absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

So you exist.
So He exists.

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your
body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is
permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can
experience so..

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are
not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also
changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your
body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In
which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you
are existing everywhere in the body.

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in
the body.

Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------------------------
By summery of GITA: "Tat Twam Asi" or 'That You Are'
This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : "Keep
your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you"
As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our
Senses.
No machine can prove Logic.
By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain
energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a
meditative state.
Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say
positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.
This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow
only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !
The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of
Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of
this World.
The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is
also what we see in us.
Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and
Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our
Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At
the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with
the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next
birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and
change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non
believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol
worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !
--
Regards
Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sarphod:

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good
quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in
its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of "God"? Do you urge
for "God"?

If "YES" to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't
stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your
current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed
excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can
claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your
desires.
If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is
warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

If "NO" to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are
you confusing yourself with these questions. That "NO" becomes
meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very
questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove
that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both
regarding "God". THAT IS EXCELLENT!

Then, it is "YOUR" primary responsibility to address the same. As I
mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you
out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the
ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,
the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an
individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of
themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not
applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is
common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be
happy. I am sure you agree with it.

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you
really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these
questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you
really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only
way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If
you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all
actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out
yourself.

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific "is a
devine forum" as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,
everything is devine. If not, some may claim "divinity" as if the
rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you
really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your
questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS
REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT
WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT
within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained
futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is
not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself
of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any
"psyche" as such.

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you
want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

All The Best.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

 

------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Dear "Sadhaks" (?)

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee
asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the
advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of
responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his
mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again
read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another
question. I have not desired to smell "flower of sky" , because it
does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you
Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has
asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn"t
exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is
giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the
best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He
adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging
on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave
him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt
is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply
giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing
judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or
say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My
Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at
least. But Mike praised me. He called me "brilliant".

Waiting for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi
------------------------------------------------------------
We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is
this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that
something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it
random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know
That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox
and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,
within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we
control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to
see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.
Jay Shree Krishna.

Hemendra Parikh
----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,
The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after
seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of
Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka
from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30
days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in
Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.
With kind regards,
Sincerely,
P.Vivekanandan
----------------------------------------------------------------

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by
which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will
see for yourself the value.

The Srutis declare: "Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is
not attainable by a weak man." In the Gita you will
find: "Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which
Brahmacharya is performed" (Chap. VIII-11). "Trividham narakasyedam
dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam
tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of
the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these
three" (Chap. XVI-21). "Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -
Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of
Brahmacharya" (Chap. III-43).

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure
life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,
concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a
bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be
completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.
You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace
is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be
grasped by him.

You can read more about this in the "Easy Steps to Yoga" by Sri
Swami Sivananda.
chirag almoula

-----------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point
out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that
person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon
seeing God in the way you want to see.
Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It
seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with
the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it
means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent
questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses
indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you
cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to
see that "seeing God" means deep understanding of intuitive nature
in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has
to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of
grasping truth.
Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you
see the pointers.
I said one cannot say "I don't see God" without knowing what God he
is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to
see, right? One can say "I don't know God, tell me what/where I
should look, and how to recognize". It is different than show me
God, right?
Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected
in our experience of "I am" right now as you read these words. In
first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof
one cannot deny.
There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is
not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there
is proof of God more reliable than that.
But this point didn't make any impression.
I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what
happens!
Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt
----------------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only
discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

I AM

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body
has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.
Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not
changing with it because if you were changing then who would have
known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows
the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the
changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who
is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless
element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What
is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider
body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,
because body is changing every second!!!

I and MINE

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you
consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never
consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my
legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and
simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling
well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,
that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart
(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how
can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it
as I. Is this logical?

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???
Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I
want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other
words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.
According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.
Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or
yourself?

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

1. Your existence.
2. The basis of your existence.
3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,
those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,
they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sadhaka/message/2108

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia
----------------------------------------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-
Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)
( M ) :

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom
to Son?)

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't
it?

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls
tell me the story ! Please !!

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father
only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

J: Does He not do anything?

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then
totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,
nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,
form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,
my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor
any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my
Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any
caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can
be His respect or disrespect?

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,
nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither
any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire
exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you
are His son!

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the
front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't
understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable
universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,
if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!
Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no
organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)
person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-
1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and
insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot
search.

J: Why not Mom?

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am
false. I am asat. I am non existent. My "not being" is my "being".
Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

M: He is your Father, Son!

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off
to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the
world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -
Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed "actually" Mom then.....)

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power
you run this circus called the world?

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of
Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable
universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run
this circus only on His strength.

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless
me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became
tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

"MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

(BG 7:14)

He was He only!

Namaste Jee.

Jee Jee
Shashikala
----------------------------------------------------------------
-Shri Hari-

My dear Sarphodji,

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the
Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I
could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by
reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.
Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of
fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and
yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the
Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will
stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.
You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not
deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light
shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you
tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be
mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that
have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined
with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark
Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that
rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

 


------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Hari Om

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale
which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all
in being definitive, have reference material and it will also
strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that
easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of
Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I
have solely relied on for a number of years -

Every human being wants the following:

1) To "live for ever". This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of
death is the indicator of that desire.
2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is
desire for CHIT (Knowledge).
3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for
ANANDA.

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to
fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /
some element which enables you to "live for ever", to be all knowing
and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would
not have had the desire for the same.

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

To be continued.

Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
---------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Tabalchi ji,

According to J. Krishnamurti "modern so called educated" people want
a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in
meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be
discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give
It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.
Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a "full
stomach" tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,
or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty
you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but
will try your best to drink it.

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a
physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about
God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known
expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and
space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr
Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about
exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become "jyan-vijyan-triptah" and
only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

Regards,
Suresh C. Sharma
---------------------------------------------------------

Sir,
You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around
you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed
this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.
Inquire within and get the answer.

surender syal
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mitro,
Why has this God become famous as "HE" why not "she" or "IT"
or "Nothing"? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish
bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God
is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods
(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences
and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

---------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have
asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How
is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa
also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.
But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.
I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind
fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my
parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember
that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel
them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they
are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds
that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I
accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They
dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa
could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you
She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not
satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then
what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.
She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant
accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or
experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel
or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,
still I would accept that because how can I come without them on
this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or
Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations
of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self
proclaimed "Divine" site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum
Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my
name Jee?

Sarphod Tabalchi

------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Hare Krishna

Sarphodji,

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish
(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),
a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!
According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him
and also enter into Him.

Arjuna said
O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your
four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and
lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

Sanjaya said
The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to
Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His
two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

Lord Krishna said:
My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very
difficult
to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see
this form, which is so dear.
Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor
even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You
have seen Me.
O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be
seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered
into.
My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,
is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards
all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer
your question of knowing and seeing God.

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has
stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's
words.

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and
should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given
excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and
will
continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that
there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr
Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But
still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but
still should be respected. Your "Begum Sahibaa" appears to have
directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection
in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more
logics/pointers to you:

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every
field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will
find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say
"I am the Highest". Always a better /higher person than you is
existing. Now where does this "highness" end. If there is sense of
highness , then there must be an element which is "highest". God is
that element. God is the HIGHEST.

4. You always need some "shelter" to survive. In the childhood you
need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,
wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,
children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not
the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then
there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate
shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in
principle
points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,
there
must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some
shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be
described
as " Highest Shelter available "! God is "PARAM ASHRAYA DATA" Giver
of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be
necessary,

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there
is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact "to err is
human" -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.
Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an
element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a
difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and
Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more
perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

To be continued till you say "I am satisfied"

As regards your observation that "Nature" also creates/controls-
answer is that whether you believe that nature has "knowledge"? If
yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your
religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT
NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert
nature
take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so
many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.
After all it is a matter only of "terminology". If no then you must
accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE
SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil
that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA" . Logical ?
Does
it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa
and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be
sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was
startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated "thanks
for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as
always."

Son goes to father and asks, "Father, what is God?" Father
answered, "Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life
and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about
It!" The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son
promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, "Father,
fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs
all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god." Father
remarks, "Good job! Keep thinking." The son not knowing whether his
revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes
back to father and declares, "Father, desire drives all the lives,
desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.
Therefore, the desire should be the god." Father remarks again, Good
job! Keep thinking." The son does not feel the conclusive
appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues
to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the
lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all
the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the
wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be
taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the
notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the
deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the
appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The
son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses
and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption
power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He
sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and
absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,
desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of
knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -
mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the
three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three
divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or
Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his
father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The
God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering
aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The
new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs
up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion
of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what
the driving force could really be.

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post
of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.
The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if
it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.
The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The
absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind
above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in
frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever
be.

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance
strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom
does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance
power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength
which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what
is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of
the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of
strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to
another all around the universe that is within its control to seek
itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It
returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance
strength could ever be.

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own
true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into
silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the
driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the
absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation
between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque
starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of
creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every
thing that is perceieved ever.

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your
fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your
happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you
are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys
and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as
well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your
notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what
you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally
transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across
everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the
very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the
most troublesome question to start with.

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain
searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better
pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be
what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not
just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING
WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.
If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other
words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your
perception.

Respects.

Naga Narayana
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of
sadhakas received so far!
To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing
anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what
one "thinks" God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be
"that" it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is
so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not
logical, right?
Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what
does it mean?
It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent
realization that "my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in
the disguise of the Cosmos" that sees through that individual.
The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw
objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same
forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend
to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we
understand God, this "Understanding" opens up the very mind who sees
God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.
Other aspects of issues will see later....
Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

---------------------------------------------------------
-Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!
I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of
divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it
dear friend).
If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,
what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole
tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree
have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?
Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other
question can be answered it seems to me.
I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was
by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.
I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about
3am
in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room
at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to
do annual technical checks). There across the room was this
controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was
performing asanas, (within the restriction), "trying to stay awake?"
I
asked, "no he boomed", we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,
we
developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read
Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).
He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, "Mike if people
could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.
What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and
the courage, 'to ride the tiger".
We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me
an
Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were
brothers of the spirit.
There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected
moderator.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How
did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji
Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum” had those books according to
you.
Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did
you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “
flower
of sky” ? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to
smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always
believe only after “seeing” ?

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What
methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding
this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such
a
big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing
this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on
EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we
know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult
your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what
your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you
tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that
not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

Namaste Jee.

Jee Jee
Shashikala
------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based
on
what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.
The most important thing is to know that God is not "something",
"somewhere" and "some times". It is at the core of our being, an
intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.
In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,
nevertheless, is known as "knowingness" in us by virtue of just
being.
For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,
Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc "out there"? You cann't! They are
experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc
outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said
"From the beginning, not a thing is!" Please, please, see the truth
of
this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of
something or other which we conceptualize as subject
experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as
separate. Such division is not experiential.
Just as these experiences are not seen "out there", but are truely
happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from
Consciousness.
Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,
conceptualized as "Sun" out there, for practical purpose. This is
also
true for all apparant objects of the world.
God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the
most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!
When people engage in services to help others who are victims of
disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates
their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People
who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc
are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!
Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?
Are those who bring such disasters to "apparant others" also God, if
all is God?
They are also, yes, but unfortunately "they" have not understood yet
that they are!
In God's world, only God exists playing "others", so who does what to
whom?
Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,
nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt


-------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSITING
Dear Sadhak,
Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!
If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?
Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak
with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another
deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be
seen/experienced through the "SELF" but to know this SELF we donot
need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF
knows it SELF.
1. Where is God I have never seen Him?
He is not HE, He is "I". When we can see/know who am I we can
see/know who is God.
Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of
all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the
universe! Ch10:15
2. Who has seen Him?
All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen
HIM too.
Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you
seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-
"Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now."
Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.
3. How is He?
With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire
universe.Ch10:42
4. If I dont know how do I accept?
Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized
soul, and know Him first, then accept.
5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so
that we may indulge in goodness.
What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or
donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.
6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics
which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the
thread?
Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-
Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead
yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before
giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with
them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by
the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they
can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will
get their realization at their own speed.
with lots of Love,
a sadhika
Sadhna Karigar

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jai Hanuman

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the
questioner!! "Sarphod" in Hindi means skull breaker ! "Tablachi"
means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!
Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic
name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some
one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say
please- "that children now a days need more than belief to accept".
That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your
kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid
belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity
on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of
proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father
or some name to be mine or for that purpose by "the children of now
a days"- say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

Do you "know" as to who is your father and who is your mother? What
proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X
as your father?

You asked "from where to pick the thread". I reply to you that you
pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

Reply now! Argue !!

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala
----------------------------------------------------------------
Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It
is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation
in his books-"Autobiography of a yogi" and "Man's eternal quest"
which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly
describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is
the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is
indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.
Ami Chhowala

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I still remain unsatisfied in this "divine" forum. How and why
Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your
scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also "see" God ?
My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami
Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar
had "darshanas" of God. Was His statement right or your reference
of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?
How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an
instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be
fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner
is focal point! None of the "sadhaks" are convincing so far. I
asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and
incomplete.

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like
me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a
divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.
Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else
we are doing at present except meeting?

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature" made oceans, Sun Moon etc
and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why
cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is
beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap
Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

"Sadhaks" - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy
my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as
real self and not the outer sheath of immortal "real self" which
contains the apriori knowledge.

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God
is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.
Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of "Sun
and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet"
and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the
people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise
God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this
earth are "Thy" tiny living cells. We have several billions living
cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we
are?

But those who find human soul as "real self" have no difficulty in
knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul
(Parmatma) and His subtle body "Mahadeva" is omnipotent Supreme
Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His
spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter
consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit
prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-
pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in
our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those
who consider material gross body as the real self will always find
difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name
derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.
Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.
with regards,
Prem Sabhlok


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear sarphod,

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling
everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we
can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can
feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with
life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we
are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are
unable to establish about the source of the existence.
Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the
nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about
god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses
attached to our body always act against our realisation
process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.
Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think
naturally and live naturally.

with regards
Ramana kothuri

----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too
dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or
logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont
agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved
ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of
Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'
message that before "big bang" too something existed or that if
there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is
exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom
and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please
elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five
elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the
transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are
warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First
the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

Luca Brasi
-------------------------------------------------------------

Jai Kali Mata

What is meant by "No one knows about time!!!" Also, I am unclear as
to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about
time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by
him? Kindly clarify !

Bandook Singh

-----------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

You have asked -

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?
Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can
simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the
name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all
Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

2) Who has seen Him?
Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future
too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated
that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this
whatever anyone says, is questionable.

3) How is He?
Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding
Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be
described at all.

4) What are you able to know "Time" (samay). This question has been
asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It
is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only
you, but no one understands anything about "time". They can say
nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly
believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of
laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone
continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and
according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that
tattva a "form". You too can speak about the same as well.

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive
arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence
of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the
support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-
deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of
that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever
be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in
conformance to that reasoning.

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or
an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up
in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.
Leaving the search, become engaged in "Chup Saadhan" (Effortless
Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be
quietened, will become still.

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words
used.

Vineet Sarvottam
-----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a
creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,
house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.
Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,
Sun. Moon, stars also !

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,
machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth
also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun
rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of
them also!

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

Ans A human being cannot "create" anything! It is only "nature"
which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert
gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't
create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or
more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You
can "discover" only.

To be continued.

Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------
Kindly read bertrand russel
Aranha Roy

------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas
have said.
Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble
us!
Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has
to exist in
the first place.
Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This
knowing of an
existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,
function etc.
The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one
Existence
fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual
existences localized
in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,
continuing
the existences.
When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word
Universe points
to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only
by being
aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness
of Existence.
To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to
know
whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to
be
beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,
because to say
it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is
Awareness of
non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the
Existence(without
division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space
containing all
objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing
it with
this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the
real never
ceases to be.
Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,
Beautiful, full of
Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?
God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love
unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and
those who
preach God's message!
Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal
Oneness, GOD!
Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------------------------------------
My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly
asked: "Why can't I see Him?"
Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is
subjective awareness.
The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a
distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-
consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really
are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,
and you'll find what you're looking for.
Rishi Handa

-------------------------------------------------------------
Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding
this.....
Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions?"
"Who wants to know God?" ....and wait for the answer....
see what comes from deep inside.....

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the
questions....
In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself
who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......
Best wishes
Sushil Jain

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I
went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around
22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I
do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can
ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open
to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had
them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -
with wonder and amazement.

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am
gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them
through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There
are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also
amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and
explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find
God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my
life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It
depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for
humanity - around me.

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are
asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I
doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine
power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I
imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha
Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that
distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is
full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see
God, unless God willingly appears to me.

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of
explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on
where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please
discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions
before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the
oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere
you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your
questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this
until now.

Venu Gopal
-----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am
blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full
circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are
the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to
pick the thread?
O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me
S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant
physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about
the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there
substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?
I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what
then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians
Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium
before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the
scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of
physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be
spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist
seem to be saying.

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to
build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being
taught.

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be
mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you
where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,
maybe one day we can really talk.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
---------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadak,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know
water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to
show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)
and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.
Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- "God is apprameyam" that which
cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as
God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)
2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above
examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as
shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna
3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,
Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that
the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri
Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE
is in all shapes and forms.
4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that
there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole
universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol
or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-
Leave it.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan
--------------------------------------------------------------

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question
either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has
or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a
question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his
mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and
feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical
illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All
the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our
mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.
When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior
knowledge.

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme
realisation.

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is
the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the
cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view
and
linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with
God

H. Subair


---------------------------------------------------------------
dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person
like you are really god's gift to us.
bhargav mehta
---------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Re: [gita-talk] Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What
is the logic ?

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what
and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith
enters into My being.

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

Sundara Raghavendran
------------------------------------------------------------

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!
When someone says "where is God? I have never seen Him", that person
has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot
ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption
that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the
mind and what I see out there is definitely not "God".
So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.
When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get
answered.
Consider the following dialogue:
Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?
A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to
me!
Q: How do you know you exist?
A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!
Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some
logical explanation to confirm you do exist?
A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,
because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any
sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

So, it is self-evident existence, of "beingness" we all feel within
us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects
of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,
never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-
world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!
I just have to find out that ultimately this "I" is Impersonal and
is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!
Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!
Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object
among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.
It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!
It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their
existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place
automatically by just Being.
Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!
Namaskar...

Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------------------

My dear Sarphod,
There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have
heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, "I
want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be
at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God
doing right now?
The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching
through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the
next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's
perplexity, inquired, "What troubles you, father?" The father
responded, "Oh, this is not something you would understand." At
the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small
child smiled, and simply said, "Father, that is so easy to
answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer
these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses".
The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to
respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the
king, "First, please have a pot of milk brought forth." The king did
so. Then the child inquired, "Is there ghee in this milk?" The
king said, "Yes, it is there." Then the child explained, "It is
there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee?" The
king said, "There is a process by which the ghee will be brought
forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then
the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the
surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he
see the ghee." As the king was speaking, slowly realization came
into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this
moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who
does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will
certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the
process of "bringing forth the ghee".
The child then said, "You are asking me what God is doing.
That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.
So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you
are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child
on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand
his next lesson. "This is what God is doing"....he said. "He is
taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high
position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone
else from a high position and putting him into a low position."
The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him
and his father.
So, one may say, "I don't accept such simplistic
responses".....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,
unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a
sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly
comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God
consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain
what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to
analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,
and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.
It is not a mechanical process.
I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it
is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children
become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the
Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We
can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for
them that we can possibly be.

respectfully,
Mahalaksmi Dasi

----------------------------------------------------------------
Sarphod,

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book "the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi"
published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

Haley H. Haynes
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.
We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what
is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to
our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is
said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and
such.

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which
always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,
thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience
always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That
in which all states of experiences happen.

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding
of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of
whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than
later. What is Real

 

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