Tuesday, March 31, 2009

[gita-talk] Re: Bhagavad Gita - Questions and Insights from Daily Verse

NEW POSTING

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Gita 2:51
 
-Shree Hari-

Dear Shrikant,

Reflecting on your comments culminating on the paste below:

'Such indifference is the essential pre-requisite for transcendental meditation,
which will lead him to the third state of `Maadhava' i.e. a Self realised soul'.

I take it that a soul who is transcending, bears witness to the collapsing
fabric of illusion in which mankind is enslaved, that 'realities' are like
shapes in clouds.
As a friend said to me, "Yes Mike one should never rationalize".

One observes without fear, grounded in 'The Beloved'.

Just a few thoughts.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

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Gita 2:51

Hi

  Could a Maharishi explain what will happen to one who practices the following all together,
  1. Jnana Yoga
  2. Raja Yoga
  3. Bhakti Yoga
  4. Karma Yoga
  5. Hatha Yoga
 
  Everyday.
   I know there are more types of yoga and for example swami vivekananda has asked the followers of the Ramakrishna Mission to practice one or more or all the above first four only. I believe that Hatha Yoga is a must for those whose guna is of the Kshatriya type, so the emphasis that the above five are a minimum must.
  Thank you
  TMPrashanth Babu.
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Gita 2:53

He who has eliminated desire by Gita 3 (43) with firm determination can get self realisation otherwise it is impossible

Pawan Kumar Singhal
Ram Ram

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Gita 2:53

I wanted to resolve my confusion. If i start thinking that i am soul (Atma) and no need to go to different temple and get into argument about the theory then the chance of developing ego is high and at the same time fear of going away from God

Vinayak Dalvi

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PRIOR  POSTING

Gita 2:50

Hari Om

Dear Brother Mike ! I fully appreciate your view points and voice of your soul. I understand the truth behind your experiences. Thanks for generously sharing with all of us.

Fact is that any equilibrium or non equilibrium in body, mind, intellect stuff has no relevance whatsoever to the type of bliss or ananda which is goal of all of us. Service to the community, Service to World at large, Meditation, Devotion to God, Love, pain when you see sufferings, Crying out to the Paramatma, tears of Joy when offering prayers, taking pains and helping others - they all are different types of Divine pleasures than the pleasures which are contemplated by sensory organs, or are generated by mind or intellect or body or any equilibrium or non equilibrium among them ! In each of these joys- there is no equilibrium of inert. Body suffers when you render service. But there is a pleasure in that pain. Is not a pleasure hidden in the labour pains of a mom? If there is no, why does she want to be mom again? Nature is in-equal. If nature becomes equal, Scriptures say that on that day MAHA- PRALAY comes. NATURE CAN NEVER BECOME EQUAL EXCEPT ON THE DOOMS DAY. The very essence of nature is to CHANGE. How a thing which changes constantly, ceaselessly, continuously, become equal? Only SELF can become Equanimous. The very glory or need of equanimity ( samata) is due to the fact that there is ALWAYS non-equilibrium in nature or inert or body.

Hence it is not possible to attain quietitude permanently in an element of nature. In meditation also, there is "back to square one" ( vyuthaan) state. Disquite therefore is natural. But for SELF it is different matter altogether. Self is CHANGELESS . Hence Gita and Saints like Swamiji insist for "disconnection with Nature/body/inert/world" . That is "Yoga" - under Holy Gita.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Gita 2:50

In response to comments from Shri Vyas N B, my reply is as follows;

Dear Vyas N B: I respect your point of view even though there is a difference in perception and difference of opinion between us. Certainly that will not cloud our mutual respect, admiration and affection.

Yoga has multiple shades and references in Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta, for example `YogaH Karmasu Kaushalam', `Samatvam Yoga Uchyate' etc. Yoga is indeed "Connection with Paramatma" (BG 2:48)! But it is a dotted line invisible connection as no strings of attachment are visible.

Is it not a wonder that these 700 verses, which are a subset of the superset of Mahaa-Bhaarata that were hand-written by Lord Ganesha for the first time in Devanaagari script, as per dictations of Maharshee Vyaasa almost 5,000 years ago and they still continue to inspire us in such a manner that after every fresh look into them, we obtain newer and newer insights?

By the way, Lord Ganesha has invented Devanaagari script and its proof is in the alphabets `Ga, Na and Sha'. These are the only three alphabets which have vertical line separate and distinct in them. In all other alphabets the vertical line is connected for example in `Ma', `Na' etc. This is considered to be a secret water-marked proof that is not so obvious to all of us.

Similarly, there are many ideas, constructs, similes; which are added by many renowned commentators including Santa Dnyaaneshwara, which are not necessarily found in the original verses of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta. The famous opening verse of Dnyaaneshwari by Santa Dnyaaneshwara, "Devaa Tumachi GaNeShu, SakaLa Mati Prakashu" i.e. O Lord Ganesha, by invoking your name, I am having an enlightenment; which is not found in the original verses of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta.

Logical deduction and induction are some of the tools that help us to understand our scriptures. I have used the concept of pyramid as that is in vogue today due to a famous book titled, `The fortune at the bottom of the pyramid' by eminent Professor C. K. Pralhad.

I am a devout Saadhaka and Upaasaka of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta and my Saadhanaa is relentlessly on, however I may not be able to answer all your questions upto your expectations and satisfaction, as I have no separate locus standee.

Whenever, one demands an irrefutable proof in the form of concrete evidence then we will have to take refuge of the tools of science and technology. Being a student of science and technology, in my opinion, it will be a non-starter for commentary on Geeta as nothing can be proven with mathematical tools. How can you describe `Gunaateeta' i.e. attribute-less-ness in a mathematical expression? That is how I interpret meaning of verses 53 to 55 in chapter 11 of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta.

The SaH in verse 42 in chapter 3 as I understand it is the Self, the hidden Master. It cannot be `Aham' or ego; otherwise it will be limited to only human beings. You may please verify from other sources. The subtle has greater power over the gross which cannot limit the former, even as the prison-wall cannot limit one's thoughts. The senses, the mind and the intellect are like the brick, mortar and plaster of a house in which the Master, the Self dwells. The physical body, mind and intellect have no freedom to act and they depend on one another as partners in crime or in self-less service; under the non-coercive guidance of the Master, the Self or the Pure Consciousness.

In my opinion, ever human being has a potential to be a Yogi. In how many iterations of births and deaths will it happen? Well, that depends upon individual efforts. Please refer verse 45 in chapter 6 of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta.

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi.

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Gita 2:50

Dear Geeta Sadhakas, Namaskar,

Yes BMI, coherantly interact with each other and result in emotions and actions
by the physical body. This interaction is governed by the biochemicals formed or
generated in the brain and body, intellect induces the formation of these
biochemicals.
The five senses send messages to the brain, the brain (Buddhi) analyses this
information and induces the formation of appropriate biochemicals in the brain
and in the cells of the physical body. For example, the eyes see something, then
whatever the eyes have seen is exactly described to the brain...it is the brain
(Buddhi), not the eyes, which realises that, whatever the eyes have seen...is a
snake. Immediately the mind and body react accordingly with the appropriate
biochemicals, creates an emotion of fear to run away or the emotion of attack to
kill the snake.
In the same manner, all the emotions of Love, sympathy, valour, lust, surrender,
etc are created...The body and mind feel happy when the emotions are desirable
or sad when they are undesirable.
However the physical body has limitations. Aged persons lose the their physical
capabilities, but the mind and intellect dont lose as much. If the emotion of
lust arouses, the mind mates in imagination......

...Gee Waman

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Gita 2:50

Jai Hanuman

In social and community service, you need to draw a line of `so far and no further'; otherwise your own survival will be in jeopardy. What prevents social and community service? Does Gita prohibit that ? No ! Come on ! All here are Sadhaks. People in this divine forum understand Scriptures, their spirit and practice. To serve the world at large is part of Karma Yoga. It is a part of Gyaan Yoga. It is a part of Bhakti Yoga. It is a goal. It is divine. All Saints and Sages even after attaining Liberation do that only for remainder of their lives. There is one word in Holy Gita "LOK SANGRAH". Then there are verses upon verses regarding "SARVA BHOOT HITE RATA" !  These terms and spirit behind them clearly favour Social and Community services. Why then such stuff is being meted out to us ? What kind of line is to be drawn?? How Brother Mike's very survival will be in jeopardy, Jee ? How ? I need reply. HOW?

Brother Mike ! There is nothing wrong, there can not be anything wrong in what you have stated and what you are doing as a retired person, along with Mrs Mike Keenor. .It is natural for a sadhak to "feel" for the world at large. "What is out of sight is out of mind" is not universally applicable especially for sadhaks. Whatever is out of sight, MOSTLY is not out of mind.Your Beloved is out of sight , is He out of your mind too ? If your son is travelling, he is out of sight. Is he out of your mind too?  ULTIMATELY, all souls are ONE. How one can not feel about the same ? Love / Compassion know no boundaries, no lines of demarcations. 

Namaste Jee;

Jee Jee

Shashikala

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PRIOR  POSTING

Shree Hari

ram ram

Some of the responses are becoming very difficult to comprehend.   Please be concise, to the point, using simplicity of words and staying with the subject at hand.   Thank you,  From Gita Talk Moderators,  Ram Ram 

-Shree Hari-

Dear  Shrikant,

Regards your quote pasted below:

'Whenever your physical body, mind and intellect are in coherence, you are in a
state of equilibrium in any activity. In that state you are always in a cheerful
mode. However, If there is a discord between them, it certainly shows up.'

Now looking at my post:

When performing a demonstration, my body is flowing, my mind is
   absolutely focused it suppresses the disquiet within.

Maybe it is hard to understand, but I am not happy not sad, I am engrossed,
disquiet within and without are disconnect from awareness.
Background noises, have no connection, if you attempted to look into my eyes, I
am not sure what you would see, a man in meditation I suppose.
Look dear brother, what do I achieve? One thing for sure, a service to the
community, (my wife and I work together), I am now retired.
This disquiet, I am well aware is the product of 'Samskaras', the joy is not
allowing such things to turn me away from from doing my duty to others. This all
never happened through any effort by us, it just happened.( That is another
story).

While being verbose I would like to tell you something regarding this paste:
But for other countless millions, even my heart stops bleeding for `what is out
of sight is indeed out of mind'.

I cannot let that go without comment ( I have written about this before, but it
is most relevant).

I had been meditating for about forty  minutes, then suddenly out of the void, I
saw an image, about three decades old, it was the famine
in Biafra, a young boy carrying dragging his dying infant brother out of the
scrub seeking food and shelter,(as seen on TV). My mind turned to BABA, I, in my
mind cried out in silence, how can this be Dear Father? I felt pain of spirit.
I then felt the sweetest 'Fatherly Love', I was not looking through my eyes, as
it were, but felt the divine compassionate  love, that saw the world as
illusion, and understood that all is perfect. These are just words and do not do
the experience justice. We never forget we just have to remember.

Again please forgive my verbosity.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

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Dear Sadaks,

Sri Vyasji says, ""In fact there is always unity among enjoyer, enjoyment and the thing of enjoyment. They all belong to nature.""

 

The enjoyer is body, which does not want enjoyment in one situation. A person depressed, he does not enjoy the cool breeze, the moon lit night, special food given. The body has tool brain (left and right) that is Anthakarna which gives option for functions of Budhi (mind), Intellect (Manas), Chitta (Thoughts), and agangkar (Ego). These operate through 10 sensory organs. The touch of beloved one likes gets accepted and recorded by Buddhi . The same touch of a friend is accepted NOT liked. For beloved touch Buddhi sends messages to Chitta to create desire more and more. But Manas tells cut desire. Questioning Manas "Why", leads to Ego my wife/husband to satisfy desire.  But by accepting Manas command, the Chiita, Buddhi dissolves, which one practices constantly is called Yoga and one who practiced Yoga becomes Yogi. Similarly practicing Karma without attachment leads to Karma yoga, practicing Gyana without having in mind any part of time that one is knowledgeable becomes Gyana Yogi. But if it should come in mind that he is having knowledge, the mind (Buddhi becomes DurBuddhi) send signals to Ego which in turn sends signals to thought. Example: 13 years Devadatha (brother in law of Buddha) was with Buddha. Just before Buddha said HE is winding up, he wanted to be head of Buddhism and when Buddha refused he turned against Buddha. 2) The disciple of Christ betrayed for silver coins, though he was practicing Gyana Marg. 3)Akrrorji who was summoned to bring Sri Krishna from Vrindhavan had Dharshan as Bagavan Sri Krishna, but stole Samathaka Diamond stone of Sri Krishna.  Dur Buddhi and desire is the cause. This danger in Gyana marg and the fall is much greater than any other Marg.

 

""In the twin slokas 2/42 and 43 referred- "sah" ( That-the element beyond intellect ) represents "Aham" - ego . In fact "desire" (Kaam) resides there."",  Sri Vyasji comment.

 

Ego resides as one of the four projected by Anthakarna stated above. The stronger the durbuddhi, the stronger is Chitta (thoughts) to satisfy Dur Buddhi, the stronger the polluted thought, the climax is EGO.  Aham Bramasmi, Ahameva Bramam, Aham Brama Tatva Etc What is IT?

 

""Further In Holy Gita , term "Yoga" has also been used to represent stability of chitta ( positioning in samadhi)"",Sri Vyasji said.

 

I presume correct. But it is the practice in positioning of mind to Sarvam Vasudevam is YOGA. Practice when perfected is Yogi of that discipline.

Sadaks, there is Patanjali Yoga, Karma Yoga, Gyana yoga, Putrakamesti Yoga, Raja Yoga Etc. Yoga is I think only adjective to the subject.

One Maha Rishi (Name I don't get now) sat 100 years in Gyana yoga. Nothing happened. Bramaji appeared. Yogi asked 100 years of more life. 200 years gone. Nothing happened. Again 100 years until 400 years went. Bramaji appeared. Yogi said, that he is ashamed to ask further life. Then Bramaji took a handful of sand from the mountain where both are, and said, " Yogi you have learnt only this fist full of sand from the mountain of sand." So all of us are nothing.

What did these DO, Jatayu (Bird), Sarabager (Yogi), Sabari (old lady), Dhadibanda (Pot maker), Malakar (Garlend maker), Thrivanka ( the hunch back totally deformed lady made as a beautiful maid by Sri Krishna).  Only devoted love to Bagavan and were ignorant of sastras, meanings, or Vedas. The most likes Gopies of Sri Krishna taught us lessons. Sadaks you must be knowing the woman of Rishis at Virdhavan were preparing food at Yagna, when these woman stealing tool food and gave to Sri Krishna and his friends before the Yagna completed and the Rishis realized. What these women DO? Only devoted unconditional love for Bagavan.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan


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PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

Dear Shri Shrikant Joshi!

Thanks for your response.  A few more points as I understand them -  BG 2:42/43 , does not in any way define or lead to defining "Yoga". Nor as stated by you the aforesaid verses establish a 'pyramid' where SELF is at the top of pyramid- meaning connected with the lower bricks. Nor I could fully grasp the relevance of the conduct of 'diabetic' patient with reference to "yoga" ! The fact remains that any diabetic patient who does not succumb to the craving for sweets, and controls himself, he/she merely by control or not falling prey to craving can't be said to be a "yogi" under Gita.

In the twin slokas 2/42 and 43 referred- "sah" ( That-the element beyond intellect ) represents "Aham" - ego . In fact "desire" (Kaam) resides there. These slokas are in continuation of topic there under discussion between Lord and Arjuna- Desires. Lord tells Arjuna where exactly desire is lying and the cure.

In fact there is always unity among enjoyer, enjoyment and the thing of enjoyment. They all belong to nature. Self is beyond nature, beyond ego. Hence your argument need be elaborated/substantiated further.

Moreover in Holy Gita the term "Yoga" has been adequately defined in 2 different ways (BG 2:48 and BG 6:23) . Further In Holy Gita , term "Yoga" has also been used to represent stability of chitta ( positioning in samadhi) in BG 6:20 and "ability/power/impact" in 9:5 !

Your statement that there is an existing non-equillibrium in intellect/mind/physical body, which a sadhak strives to correct needs substantiation as it requires a sadhak to make efforts with their reference , which efforts can't be made unless sadhak considers intellect/mind and body to be "mine". However, Gita teaches just the reverse. Self has got nothing to do with ego/mind/intellect/body. Gita starts with that only. Moreover, equilibrium in inert can come only when "self" does not consider them to be "mine" - if at all there is any inequality and there is need for correction ! The fact is that very mineness, causes inequality. Gita's very first verse (BG 1:1) teaches us that. Question/Need of making "concerted efforts" then does not arise. Why to make efforts , when the best effort is to stop identifying your"self" with the same ??

Please therefore clarify after taking into account the above concerns. Please feel free. We are only debating a spiritual point in really good spirit. I am sure such discussion will help all - including you and me.

In Gita - Yoga means- experience of "disconnection with mind/ego/intellect/body- inert" ( BG 6:23) or of "Connection with Paramatma" (BG 2:48) !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B


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Dear Moderators,
From Swamiji's recent posting, he has given clarity around the word Buddhi means Mind. ""performed with equanimity (buddhi yoga) of mind."

B.Sathyanarayan

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PRIOR POSTING

Aano bhadra krtavo yantu vishwatah
"Let noble thoughts come to me from all directions"
- RIG VEDA
Deosaran Bisnath

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Gita 2:48

Dear sadaks,
Sri Vyasji asks clarification for, ""Do not they ( 3 elements referred by you) always remain in equilibrium only (within/among themselves)irrespec tive of proper or improper actions ? Who is to maintain this equilibrium among 3 elements referred by you ? All 3 are inert only. Is yoga the name of equilibrium between 3 inert elements only?""
The Yogi dwells in Athuman irrespective of proper or improper actions. That Athuman when under influence of Paramathuma maintains equilibrium. Here the doership is No more.
I think wall of a compound (Achetan) is inert. But how did Sant Gyaneswar made the wall to fly in space to see yogi Raj, and how he made buffelow talk (say) vedas in presence of Kasi Bhramins who was astonished? Both Gyaneswar and the buffelow Samadhi are there as wittness. Sri Krishna as child gave handfull of grains to fruit vendor in exchange of fruits. But the lady later realized that grains turned into diamonds. What is definition of INERT?
Probably I dont have such deep yogic knowledge to explain further.
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan

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Bhagavad Gita -  II 2:48 II

In response to comments received related to Gita 2:47 and 2:48, my response is as follows;

Dear Vyas N B: The concept of "The equilibrium of physical body, mind and intellect is verily called as Yoga" has a concrete foundation of the verse 42 in chapter 3; wherein there is a description of a typical pyramidal structure of the solid base of sensory and actionable organs of every physical human body, topped by the mind, topped by the intellect with the final top most crust of the Self, the Aatman which is a subset of the superset called as the Brahman, which pervades the entire universe in the form of source of infinite energy.

The heat and cold sensations only affect a physical body. The pleasure and pain only affect the mind. The honour and dishonour only affect the intellect. The Self is not affected by any such stimuli and it does not offer any responses. It acts like a dispassionate onlooker / observer. It is like a lamp post on the shore, it is upto every human being to seek guidance from it or not.

A human physical body, mind and intellect are intrinsically always in a non-equilibrium state. One has to make a concerted effort to bring them first in alignment and then in a state of equilibrium. It must not be static equilibrium. It must be a dynamic equilibrium just like pedaling a bi-cycle while maintaining a fine balance on a slippery and curvilinear path of travel.

A diabetic patient always craves for sweets. His intellect cautions him against consuming sweets. His fickle mind justifies eating a large variety of sweets as they are freely available in a grand buffet in a marriage party and that he must accept the hospitality of the hosts and relatives. Having consumed lot of sweets, his intellect disapproves the mis-adventure, his mind rolls in pleasure and wants him to consume as many sweets as possible and make the best use of such a wonderful opportunity; while his physical body is unable to utilise the excess blood sugar and the ultimate result is that he faints and falls into a state of coma in the midst of the celebrations and he has to be rushed to a nearby hospital. Due to the non-coherence and disharmony between his physical body, mind and intellect, he spoils the happy atmosphere in the party and ruins the entire celebrations.

Under the guidance and control of the intellect, the equilibrium is maintained for a while. If a Sadhak wants to maintain such equilibrium on a continuous basis then he has no alternative but to seek unity with the Self, which is the true definition of `Yoga'. Please refer verse 46 in chapter 6, wherein Lord Krishna's advice to Arjuna is `Tasmaad Yogi Bhava'.

Dear Mike: Whenever your physical body, mind and intellect are in coherence, you are in a state of equilibrium in any activity. In that state you are always in a cheerful mode. However, If there is a discord between them, it certainly shows up. That is the reason, in business and in love; you need to look into the eyes. There are very few con-artists, who can hide behind their eyes.

In social and community service, you need to draw a line of `so far and no further'; otherwise your own survival will be in jeopardy.

For example, having a personal background of poverty in early life, I feel pity and sympathy for many children in India, who go to sleep every night without a proper meal. I do help many needy people around me. But for other countless millions, even my heart stops bleeding for `what is out of sight is indeed out of mind'.

Similarly, I appreciate your social and community services without ego and egocentric behaviour even though ones in a while demonic tendencies do flicker for a while. In the light of a blazing mid-day Sun, such flickering candles should be simply ignored.

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi.

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PRIOR POSTING

Bhagavad Gita -  II 2:48 II

Hari Om

You see, what is renounced by a sadhak is ONLY the "desire" for fruits of Karma. Not the "fruits" of Karma. Results will be there INVARIABLY of each of your Karma but those results will not produce 'bondage' for you, because you did not 'desire for the fruits' while doing karma. Accordingly, Brother Mike Keenor should interprete and grasp. Nothing wrong in what you are doing, Brother. "Desire" for fruits is renunciable not the actual fruits of a Karma.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

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Dear Sadaks,
O Dhananjaya (the conqueror of wealth) is said in posting.

Dhanan Jaya can we also take it as, Jayam= Victory. Dhanan probably meant as Victory as his wealth. In Sri Ramayan it is said about Rishi Sarabagar that he is a Tapodhana. Meant Tapas is his wealth.
Pardon me if I am mistaken
Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

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Hari Om

Dear Shrikant:

Will you please elaborate upon the following ? :

"The equilibrium of physical body, mind and intellect is verily called as Yoga."

Do not they ( 3 elements referred by you) always remain in equilibrium only (within/among themselves)irrespective of proper or improper actions ? Who is to maintain this equilibrium among 3 elements referred by you ? All 3 are inert only. Is yoga the name of equilibrium between 3 inert elements only? 

Whether the definition of Yoga given by you, is from Gita? Suppose: Mind proposes an X thing.(Say taking bribe). Intellect being the owner and commander of mind, after applying logic and rationale, your circumstances and needs, approves acceptance of bribe, with instructions to be careful say in this or that respect. Body the hands/legs/eyes etc are ready to obey mind and put the bribe amount in pocket. All 3 are unanimous, completely in equilibrium with each other. Will the karma/state of being like that, be a yoga within the meaning of BG 2:48? If, yes, how? If no, why not, given the definition?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B 

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 Loving Divine,
Pranam.
Mikji, thanks for starting a beautiful discussion.  I understand it this way...
Both who believe Universes exist and doesn't exist are true from there perspective.  Few weeks back, I was watching a show on Discovery Channel about Universe and everything they were saying I was amazed and I kept thinking that they have stolen everything from Yoga Vashistha!!!  In brief, many universes exist.  This whole world is many multi dimensional and we have mastered only 3-4 dimensions in our daily life that's why we can't see how our world and rest of the universes look like!  So yes it exists to the knower of such dimensions.  Even Bhagwan says in BG 10:42 that He is holding this universe in an atom that means there are many atoms and therefore, many universes.
 
On the other hand, Yoga Vashishtha also clarifies that these universes are all our minds' play!  I can create you in my universe but you yourself physically can not exist in it, i.e., I carry your image only in my world, thus illusion.  Even husband-wife sleeping together can not enter into one another's dream so it is very personal creation and as I am the creator of it, I am also the destroyer of it.  When I create it, I enjoy it with what so ever is my desire.  When finally tired of it, my own creation dissolves in me.  so actually nothing ever happens as we all carry different images on maanasapat - screen of our mind.  whatever happens, happens in our mind only and therefore nothing, no universes ever exist. 
 
Only consciousness exist which knows that it has imagined something called universe(s), enjoyed them and it is the same consciousess now knows that it has dissolved them into itself.
 
humble regards,
always at Thy Divine Feet
Manjula Patel

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PRIOR POSTING

Gita 2:48

Dear Sadaks,
This Raga and Dwesha plays very important role in life. This two are play card of Maya. We have experienced likes and dislikes on the same person at differant situations and times. Likes that are pleasing and pleasurable in the body at one time becomes displeasure at old age. Organs of actions Sastras call it, becomes in effective. Bagavan in Geetha has said, "If the desires for Kama does not Go at very old age although the organs of actions are ineffective, then I (God-Sri Krishna) give that jeeva fresh body to enjoy"". So is applicable in case of so many likes and dislikes. There is good commentry from Bajagovindam. This does not exempt even the most realized souls. Ex: Sant Namdev just before his death, when God (Sri Krishna) appeared, he said that his likes of completing the Abangs are not fulfilled (Nobal Cause), Sri Krishna said OK and gave him birth as Sant Tukaram. Likes and dislikes are the worst tools of destruction.
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan
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 Gita 2:47
 
Dear Sadhak
 
This sloka is the short maxim of Bhagvat  Geeita and it should be recited every day.I plan to add to my daily Gita recitations.If we have faith in Geeta recitation we get the desired results in our life This was the reason why Mahatma Gandhi used to  find answers for any question originated in his life I used to recite Gita chapters from my childhood.I experience its effect in solving my problems of my life Start reciting any chapter yu like and visualize its effect within one month.
 
Truly yours
 
S S Bhatt
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Hari Om

Gita 2:47
Thanks Mike for apt conclusions .

"I have long held the view that according to how one observes anything, will give results according to the domain/method etc., and the conclusions may be different"

In fact within every world, there are other worlds too of different kinds. The origin of individual soul is the Supreme Brahman existing everywhere like the sky. Within the individual soul, several classes of individual souls exist like the covers of plaintain tree and like worms in the interior of the earth, on account of their permanent nature being only Supreme Consciousness. The triple world exists within the the atom of consciousness AS A CITY IN A DREAM.

The ego-nature / sense of "I" exists within the world and world exists within the ego sense, enclosed within one another like the basic coverings of a plaintain tree !

The collections of the worlds are not perceived mutually. On account of omnipotence of the Reality everywhere, whatever energy leads to anywhere by reason of intense agitation ( i e intensity of THOUGHT), it remains there and shines in that manner ( i e , whatever is intensely THOUGHT of any where, can be experienced there) .

Infinite worlds thus arise and disappear like waves of water in an ocean, revolving again and again. Like: Masses of mosquitoes afflicted during rains.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
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-Shree Hari-
Gita 2:48

Dear Shrikant,

This Shloka, and comments by you, caused me to ask a question.

Because of my skills etc. in a martial art, I am ask to give public
demonstrations. Now I would rather be digging my garden, or holding  a standard
class with my regular students. When asked I always say yes, you see I consider
it a duty, a service to the community, (not a money venture).
When performing a demonstration, my body is flowing, my mind is absolutely
focused it suppresses the disquiet within.

The disquiet appears primordial, deep no rational explanation, it never stops
me, has it got  easier, yes, slowly,slowly.

How does this stand w.r.t.   Bhagavad Gita Shloka  2:48.

In passing there are many souls, who every day face their 'demons', yet it does
not stop them from performing their duties.(To mankind).

With Respect and Divine Love

Mike Keenor
---------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Sri Mikeji wrote,''Swami wrote, is, 'If one sees a ring of ripples in a pond, it could have been caused by a stone thrown into the pond, a fish(or some such) jumping for insect and so on'. The point he made is, yes, cause = stone, effect = ripples, BUT beyond cause is THOUGHT."". This type of cause and effect is by experience. Example: If one has seen a rat earlier, he can tell rat tail when the rat is almost hidden in a whole with only it`s tail sticking out. So in case of fire and smoke.
But we cannot see or know the cause and effect of our birth. By Gyana Anuboothi Yes we can know. There was famous saint called Vemmana in Andra Pradesh. He was gold merchant. He renounced. Sitting in open air, when rain comes, not a drop of water falls on him. He could make blind see. One day by his side only 2 plaintains (small bananas) and a jug of milk as lunch. A waylaider came and took the food. He had only one disciple who objected and showed resistence. Sant said let him go. Disciple could not understand of someone robbing food. Sant said that person was his class mate in earlier birth, when the sant (earlier another boy) robbed of peanut ball. As a result Bagavan sent this person now to erase my Karma credit. Vasudeva Sarvam.
Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan
--------------------------------------------------
 
PRIOR POSTING

In response to comments in today's post, Re: Bhagavad Gita - Questions and Insights from Daily Verse - Gita 2:47 ; I would like to respond as follows;

To Dear Nanda: Your observations are correct. It is not found either in Tulasi Ramayana or Valmiki Ramayana. It is found in a famous song in Marathi language written by Shri G. D. Maadagulkar in Geeta RaamaayaNa, "Mee Kele Nija Kaaryaasee, Dasha Dishaa MokaLyaa Tujasee, Nacha Maaga Anudnyaa Majasee, Sakhee Sarale Doghaan Madhale Naate, Leenate Chaarute Seete" i.e. Lord Raama after conclusively winning the epic battle by killing RaavaNa, told Seetaa: I have accomplished my obligatory tasks and duties, now all the ten directions are free for you for your next journey in life. O humble and beautiful Seete, you need not seek my permission anymore. O dear friend, if you think that now our relationship is over for ever, then so be it and in that case, I do not have any objection.

In saying so, Lord Raama has amply clarified that His objective to fight the battle was not limited only to His own selfish motive of rescue and release of his dear wife Seetaa. It was indeed for the `Vinaashaaya Cha Dushkrutaam' i.e. annihilation of the wicked forces represented by Demon RaavaNa.

To Dear Mike: Your comments are very apt. Many times in mathematics, we prove a hypothesis by corollary or by reductio ad absurdum i.e. reduction to the absurd or proof by contradiction.


To Dear Mihir Shah: In Sanskrit language `Preyas' means what pleases you and what you prefer to do; however `Shreyas' means what you ought to do irrespective of your likes and dislikes. In Sanskrit language there are multiple meanings of a word like `Dharma'. Therefore, please refer to the context and implicit meanings.

For example many critics of Shreemad Bhagawad Geeta translate `Chaarjuna' in 5th verse in 4th Chapter as `Chaar June' i.e. 4th June and jump to the conclusion that Arjuna was born on 4th June and therefore it is all a false cooked up story which cannot date back to 5,000 years ago or so. Another one is that, if you believe in Darwin's theory of evolution then how can a human being worship a monkey i.e. God Hanumana. We shall refrain from being victims of such manmade disasters, that are made with or without proper understandings and / or malice.

Thanks & Best Wishes,

Shrikant Joshi

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I am so glad I asked this question regards the universes.(B.G. 2:46)

I have long held the view that according to how one observes anything, will give results according to the domain/method etc., and the conclusions may be different.(Light particles light waves, the classic paradox). To see the results as an absolute is the illusion.

Swami Vivekananda, dealt with the paradox of reality, in a book I read
decades ago, not in the solitary book I now own by Swami Vivekananda. Reverting
to the paradox, the gist of what the Swami wrote, is, 'If one sees a ring of
ripples in a pond, it could have been caused by a stone thrown into the pond, a
fish(or some such) jumping for insect and so on'. The point he made is, yes,
cause = stone, effect = ripples, BUT beyond cause is THOUGHT.

I may see 'reality' differently from another soul, a well practiced yogi may
have yet another view by means of vibhutis,(powers, to be surrendered), who is
right, all and none. But in GODS TRUTH they all must be illusions.

One other thought dear Sadhaks, ones who meditate, have you ever touched
something beyond any means to describe; beyond the rational? (I certainly have a
limited means of articulation, in such things).

The various learned comments sourcing from GITAJI 2:46, caused me to respond.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

GITA 2:46

how indeed can anything be added to what Vyas Jee, Manjula jee and Mike jee  have so realisingly said ....................... ah !
 
and yet ................. Buddha has given the ultimate answer to every possible question , and that is ............
 
yes
 
no
 
yes and no both
 
yes and no, neither .......
 
but dear sadhaks, this , too, is only for the enlightened ..................
 
ah, yes, one more thing .............. it has the power to lead the Mumukshus into the ultimate death, which is Immortality,  which, thou art, dear self ........................
 
Tat Twam Asi .............

TAT-TWAM-ASI

In the wonder of Discovery, Govinda,

Narinder exclaimed, “Tum He Ho, Krishna, Tum He To Ho!”

And the whole Universe reverbrated with the sound

Tat-twam-asi, Tat-twam-asi, tat-twam-asi

Narinder was no more, never-more, never-ever !

And Existence rejoiced, “Tat-twam-asi, Narinder, Tat-twam-asi”

Sing Narinder sing,

Sing the song of Love

Sing the song of One-ness

Aham Braham-asmi, Aham braham-asmi !

 Thou indeed art That...............

AUM

narinder

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shrikanti Ji,
 
Pranaams.
 
This verse can be called the essence of what Bhagwad Gita and Lord Krsna's message is.One must do ones duty and leave results of that action to God. If one does this then this Kalyug would be a less horrible place to live in as everyone will be concerned with doing selfless work and not selfish work.This is the verse that the many people who wanted to know where in BG it is stated about duties of various individuals should refer to. Do your duty and do not look forward to rewards.
 
With regards to the passage from Ramayana that you quoted, this seems to be at variance with the message conveyed in BG. According to your translation, Lord Rama is telling Sita Ma that she is free to chose what life she wants now and is under no obligation to return to him. This is the first time that I have seen this incident translated as such and I am very curious to know if this is yours or if this is stated in one of the various Ramayanas.
 
In Valmiki's Ramayana, this is how this incident was related--
CANTO CXVII.: SÍTÁ'S DISGRACE.
But, lady,'twas not love for thee
That led mine army o'er the sea.
'Twas not for thee our blood was shed,
Or Lanká filled with giant dead.
No fond affection for my wife
Inspired me in the hour of strife.
I battled to avenge the cause
Of honour and insulted laws.
My love is fled, for on thy fame
Lies the dark blot of sin and shame;
And thou art hateful as the light..
 
Many are of the opinion that Lord Rama rejected his wife and as such he was acting against Dharmic duty. What we are shown however is that when one is King--Duty towards Kingdom comes before duty towards relations and as Lord Rama stated--  I battled to avenge the cause,Of honour and insulted laws. In this translation we see how Lord Rama's action here corresponded to the message of The Bhagwad Gita. He did his Duty as a King. As Lord Krsna told Arjuna that his duty was not towards his relatives, it was toward his Duty.
 
As I have said before, I have not seen your translation anywhere before and would be grateful if you can tell where it can be found,thanks.
Regards,
Nanda
 
TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GITA 2:47
 
Shree Hari-

  Dear Shrikant,

I thought this was well presented,the proof of your points are reflected in the
worlds current woes, generated by the inverse of this shloka.
Tamo-guna, reigns supreme; Thomas Merton, (Trappist/author/ commentator etc.),
commented about the masses of his time, (1960's), nothing much has changed:
'Each individual in the mass..doesn't care, he doesn't hear, he doesn't think.
He does not act, he is pushed. He does not talk he produces conventional sounds
when stimulated by the appropriate noises ,he does not think, he secretes
cliches...'. He goes on in exasperation, referring to evil spirits and
demonizing of the masses.
Bhagavad Gita—Chapter Sixteen comes to my mind, it completes the picture.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GITA 2:47
As Joshiji says Lord Krishna's advice is to move from Prayas to Shreyas.

"The   Sanskrit   word Shreyas is often translated as   " prosperity "     Though   " prosperity " is the    nearest    English  word for   Shreyas,   it   is   a   mischievous translation     as    the   term     " prosperity ". in    its    connotation cannot stand apart from   a  suggestion of " one's   own   prosperity at the expense of others".   In India from the Vedic times to this date we wish for "Shreyae" which means "prosperity an individual enjoys when all around him prosper! when the nation progresses." (Swami Chinmayanand, The Science of Religion)
 
Warm regards
Mihir Shah
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Let us see Mike's question as follows:
Do these universes exist as a plaything for desires?
One single desire of feeling of incompleteness, or inadequacy projects these universes of desires of pleasures outside itself to get fulfilled, but fails. Such single desire is intrinsic to ego, feeling of being separate consciousness. Failure is because fulfillment is not outside of itself,  illusory are such universes. When Turns inward, finds universes of fulfillment lying. This is realization of Self, complete in Itself, needing nothing!

Now the beauty and power of Truth-Sat! Do these universes exist? Only Conscious Being can ask this question implying that there are universes, an image in the mind already perceived, however, vague it may be, and then ask exist or not? Even if found non-existent, it is the image only not found, so what? keep searching!
This means existence or non-existence both are perceptions in us, and we are Consciousness, which ever IS!
These perceptions are also of the nature of Consciousness, single Reality, supporting non-existence in its lap for non-existence to be non-existent, or illusory to be illusion! Consciousness is Sat that never ceases to be!
Krishna says I am sat and asat too in this sense! What we experience something as non-existence is the perceived absence of an object in a particular form with a particular name but never an absolute absence! one object may be non-existent as one but exists(change) as another object. Law of conservation supports it.
Only Consciousness IS, and we are THAT!
Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt
-----------------------------------------------------------------
GITA 2:46
 
Dear Mike, Nipun and others,


Mike :" All is nothing", I take this to mean, everything is created as an illusion in time….. Do these Universes exist as a plaything of desire?

Such questions do not arise during `sleep', they do only when we are awake. The good breeze emanating from the words of Shri Vyasji N B has already cleared the mist. Yet, my humble submission follows. I recall Dr Albert Einstein's famous quote that this whole universe is an illusion albeit of persistent nature.


The seers claim that the `wants' or `desires' make the ever changing world and `wholeness' or `desirelessness' brings out `salvation'. Mike's question whether the universes exist as a playthings of desires has been put forth by many others to the `seers' since time immemorial. The best answer I have ever got is `trying to know the origin of this universe, its purpose, its creator etc' without understanding the `confused knower who wants to know' is akin to drowning in the ocean of boggy ignorance.


Despite `all if God', it is impossible (what a beautiful mystery!) to measure the `Measureless' with the limited and measurable tool of `mind'. The mind is the limited reservoir before the `limitless flood', and wow! this tiny drop/blob of proteins think itself separate from the ocean.


Again quoting Dr Albert Einstein that there are two ways of looking at the universe, (1) every thing has a cause and effect and (2) every thing is a mystery. The former approach brings out the chaotic world and the latter one brings out the `satyam, shivam, sundaram' – please also  recall song words quoted by Shashikala ji's in one of her not so old posts -  `tera man darpan kahlaye' (your mind is the mirror). As says the great Swami Ramsukhdas ji, "better, let this mind be like the mirror – wherein reflections appear and disappear rather than like a film- roll keeping the memories of the always-changing things." May I add, let it be like a digital camera, store, use, rejoice and delete.


Nipun Ahuja - How one can recognize the larger tank of water or Brahamana? What is the length of time to recognize it? What type of effort is needed to recognize it?

 

If we can drop the mind even when we are awake, then the meaning of `sarvatah samplutodake (2/46)' becomes clear. Now we see that the universe has no beginning but sure it disappears in the Supreme Self. Your question has been taken care of. Yes or no?


"HAD ME RAHE SO AULIA, BEHAD HUE SO PEER/

HAD BEHAD DONO TAJE, TAKO NAAM FAKEER"


(One who remains within limit is little learned person, one who goes beyond limits is the more learned person, but one who gives up both, i.e., limits and limitless is the real `saint'.


Kind regards,


Suresh C. Sharma ________________________

 

Dear sadaks,

Bagavan HIMSELF says HE has created this world and the exact sequence in which HE created and when HE handed over it to Bhramaji. Actually it is very clearly narrated in Srimad Bagavath, as to how it came into existence, how Gunas were prepared Etc. It is clear in Upanashids also. In Bible also it is said clearly the world was created in 6 days and 7th Day Sabath day God took to rest. This rest means Sri Visnu on Aadhi Sesha lying in Yoga Nithra. In Markandeya Puran it is said clearly that world comes in existence and at the end of Kali Yug the whole creation abides in Sri Vishnu. How this abides is also clearly said. Besides it is very clearly said by saints that people lived on this earth are living on 13 other planets with their own timings. Ex: 24 hours on earth is one minute on other planet. In Sri Ramayan it is said that King Dasaratha appears to Sri Rama after Ravana got killed. In Vishnu puran it is said clearly that Prahalad came to this earth while king Bali was being sent to patal..

Also one important message told by Saint Poothanam lived in 16th century said that the time span is so long that the people there are felling jealose that on earth in Kali Yug just by Namasankeerthan people here will become divine, which is not possible for them, because of time span is very longer for them, and by the time they complete their time span this earth is going to be dissloved Av vaktham (Abides in GOD)YOGA maya Sri Krishna sends first before coming on this earth does all the negatives look positive and positives look negatives, for the reason that Man has to complete his Karma. If this Maya is not there then al of us will be conscience of Truth and Karma becomes ineffective.

Once man realizes by himself this truth, he becomes one with God. Sadaks if required I can tell where all the above is which place and in which Sastras.

In Bagavath Geetha Bagavan says one who follows Sastras is a wise man. Bagavan HIMSELF says Sastras are Pramanams.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

GITA 2:46

Dear Sadhakas , Pranam
Another example for (2/46) . Vedas are a tool to achieve self Realisation. Use exists upto a certain time. Just as a pole vaulter uses a pole to reach the height of the bar, so should one use the Vedas to achieve Self Realisation.  As soon as the pole vaulter reaches the bar he leaves the pole.He cannot cross the bar without the pole nor can he cross it with the pole. So for the Wise the Vedas have a limited use. But for most of us they have an emmence importance.

Thanks and regards,
Suhas Gogate

PRIOR POSTING

GITA 2:46

Hari Om

Brother Mike has raised a good question. Do the universes exist? If, yes-how?
If, no -how? At the outset let me state that BG 2:46 exclusively is with
reference to "realised souls"! For such souls, there are no universes existing.
Only ONE exists. The world is dissolved in the Self.These objects, such as
mountains and the like, merge within consciousness in the delusion of a dream or
in fancy , as movements (or currents) merge in the wind. As the air with motion
completely enters within the air without motion and becomes non-different by
nature, so also, this object of the dream is an impurity or an obscuring factor
of Consciousness and merges therein. Only Consciousness shines thoroughly
through the appearance or perception of the objects in dreams and the like. But,
when not so shining, it attains to oneness with those very objects and has them
within itself.

The Highest perception (the Theory that the visible universe is not born) -
means in reality, the world does not exist. Everything is only Brahmin. The
invention of difference is only for instruction of the unenlightened.

Coming now to appendix referred by you, the delusion of the mind is destroyed
for one whose mind does not abide in enjoyments, who has tranquility which is
cool and stainless , and in whom the multitude of fetters of hope or desires has
been broken.

As long as there is ignorance, only so long there is experience of world. The
reality of the world exists only to the ignorant.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------
Gita 2:46

Loving Divine,
Pranam.
It is like this - If someone keeps on describing what Gulabjaamun fruit is to
one who has never seen it, might appreciate it. However, it is all theory.
But, to one who has eaten this fruit, does it require any of these explanation?
Similarly, those who have already perceived (anubhuti) Brahman, the description
of Vedas carries no value to him/her.
humble regards,
always at Thy Holy Feet
Manjula Patel
-------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

GITA 2:46

Shree Hari-

With Reference to this paste, and noticing the comments by Sadhaks,
" All is nothing", I take this to mean, everything is created as an illusion in
time:

>' Appendix—There is no end to worldly pleasures. There are endless
> universes and there are endless pleasures in them. But if they are
> renounced and one becomes detached from them, they come to an end.
> Similarly there are endless desires. However, if they are renounced, and if
one becomes desire-less, then these desires come to an end.'

Do these Universes exist as a plaything of desire?

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
----------------------------------------------------------

GITA 2:46

As on obtaining a reservoir of water filled on all sides there is no use for a
small tank of water, likewise a Brahmana, who realizes the ultimate reality
(described in Vedas and other scriptures), has the same use for all the Vedas,
or say no use at all of the Vedas.

With reference to above verse, Kindly reply:
How one can recognize the larger tank of water or Brahamana? What is the length
of time to recognize it? What type of effort is needed to recognize it?

nipun ahuja
-----------------------------------------------------------------

GITA 2:46

Dear Sadaks,
In other way it probably means, once one who has realized the supreme from WHOM
vedas came, then there is no use of vedas. Vedas are only educational tools to
reach Paramathuma. But IF paramathuma is directly realized, then where comes the
question of such tools.

Jai Sri Krishna
B.Sathyanarayan

==============================================================

 

 

 

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[gita-talk] Re: When is Accepting Abuse Inappropriate?

Shree Hari    Ram Ram 

We urge you to be BRIEF !  There will be follow-ups and on going discussion on the same TOPICS.   Therefore let each response address one main thought / point so that sadhaks have the time to absorb and live by these divine words.   Sincerely, 

Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

My question has come about from recent discussion on the topic of - "How to Advance Spiritually and Live in Harmony when Spouse has Worldly Interests?".

To read posting please visit:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gita-talk/message/2423

Indeed, I think that often women accept emotional and psychological abuse from
their partners because they feel that it is not considered submissive to do
otherwise. I would like to hear from others where the line is drawn?

Mahalakshmi Dasi


GT Moderators Addition: Stating clearly where the scriptures also draw the line will be helpful... or specifics that any of the scriptures address on this subject. Ram Ram

---------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Another view that Swamiji has expressed in discourses is -   "Jaisaa DEV waisi PUJA".   Whatever form God takes before you, you reciprocate accordingly.   When VASUDEV (God) comes  in the form of a ROBBER, then beat him, catch him and turn him over to the Police.   We cannot let him simply rob us.   But the sentiments inside being it is only God as part of His LILA (divine play).  

Swamiji also gives the example of two brothers acting in a play... one as RAM and another as RAVANA... In the play, Ram says to Ravana "I will kill you" and thus after fierce fighting kills the demon Ravana bringing him to the floor... After  the curtains are drawn, Ram helps Ravana up from his dead man's act and both hand in hand go out to eat... forgetting the act.  

One must fearlessly play the assigned role and do one's duty whatever is needful at that particular point in time so that harm to many family members, future generations and others in society does not take place or is encouraged.  

As pointed out in a  sadhak message  "DEPENDENCY"  is problematic.  Let there be no dependency on anyone or thing other than God .  This sentiment can make one completely fearless and guide in makng the right choices, decisions and acting on them.  Hope this helps! 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

It is so blissful to see the teachings and principles of Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj and Holy Gitaji holding true across the continents.

Often "fed up" wives consider living separately from hubbies. But rarely that solves the problems. Rarely that helps either party. Quite often, for a married woman to step outside the "laxman rekha" of home is self defeating, even if she is as great as was Mother Sita. Swamiji categorically adviced us against the same. Take the bull by the horns, Jee ! Become like a tigress, if need arises. We can become so. That is better than stepping out of home. If he talks, as Nandaji stated,with a mouth like a sewer, (yes weak hubbies have no other alternative or wisdom), ignore him totally. Don't reply- that is the strongest reply. Inside become strong- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosara na koi. Do everything but don't leave the home.

I had seen a circumstance of my hubby's cousin's daughter returning back to the home of parents fed up with abuse by hubby. When for the first time hubby went physical, the girl came back. My mom- in- law then said to her, sweetly - "Why did you leave your own home? You should have made them to leave the home. Better to call police then to run away. Who are they to harass you in your own home?" We ensured she went back to her home. We ensured that hubby never again raised the hand. Time healed, and today the couple is happy, really happy.

These hubbies are weak from inside normally. But they don't reflect. Wives are not weak, but they reflect weakness. They cry. They insist. They react.They try to match themselves with a sick person. Hubbies can't even manage their own wardrobe without the help of wives. Wives can take care of entire house , kids even when hubby is no more.

If wife is no more, hubbies run for another. What else poor fellows can do? But wife does not do so normally, if hubby is no more. She is strong enough to pass the balance life as a widow, respectfully taking care of home and children. We see it in our daily life.( Particularly in India). The biggest inner fear which a husband carries, when he is of the age of say 45+ , is that his wife should not die. I have seen "hard core" hubbies shivering , when their better half is in hospital !!

Be patient. Give time to him. Love him. Help him in becoming a better human. Cure him. Seek silently the help of psychiatrist if need be. Is that not sadhana ? Trust in the presence of Daddy the Great , in you , in him, in home and in the circumstances. Daddy only is doing Lila of Kaliyuga before you.

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

MUch i have read is spiritually eloquent in this forum even on the topic of
abuse.
But this is a rather complicated serious issue with far reaching consequences
for the entire family.If, the person can look at the verbal abuse or
emotional abuse as a sadhana, if this person can continually divest themselves
of their ego and percieve the abuse as a gift that and bear it that is one
thing. If and that is a very very very big if this abuse does not spill out to the children whether perceived or experienced in some way by them. IF the
person being abused cannot not not do this spiritual exercise than resources
must be looked at and taken to help. abuse , physically emotional , mental is
a killer. I know, yes i was horrifically abuse by bothe mother ( whom now i
take care of & my father both emotionally and physically when i was growing up.my brother is damaged
from this & i have spent my entire life dealing with the trauma of the
abuse. Sorry, karma is a funny concept as well, no one has the right to just say
well its your karma we do not know the reasons for anything.even in the concept
of karma therte is vast nuance for instance a true story.In nazi germany a
mother is holding her child the nazi s are coming up the stairs to take this
jewish mother and child to the concentration camps, the mother makes the
decision to murder her own child, a mercy killing. in her next life she is
terrified to bear children, who is to judge this woman?
I dont know what resources are in india for women who are abused at the hands of
their husbands.If there are resources available please avail yourself of
them. being a battered mother helps not you or your children

Sophia

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pranaam.

I am happy to see the interest to pursue this very important topic. Myself and some other Hindu workers(including a Professor of Psychology in the US, several counsellors) have been working with cases of domestic abuse. It has been the trend that most Hindu women stay with abusive husbands and their reasons for doing so are exactly the reasons that are being explained here--they consider it as their fate (from previous births etc), they disassociate themselves from their body and take the abuse from their husbands--almost every scenario has been explained here. We have been trying to help and the situation is very serious.
 
We have seen that Sri Krsna never stay on the side of anyone/anything abusive, not Kamsa, not Duryondhana. When the Pandavas lost everything to the Kauravas, The Lord did not tell them that this is your fate/karma and you accept this and move on in life. He did not tell Arjuna that it is wonderful that you have forgiven your abusive relatives, now move on. He made sure that Arjuna destroyed those that were evil and abusive.
 
The details are not being included here ....  but many problems resulting from abuse and abusive home and victim of abuse and future generations....  We try as best to help but one can only help to an extent that the person accepts that they have a problem and need help--then you can give it. Unless you acknowledge you need help, no one can help. Again, I say thanks for the various insights and information and am looking forward to seeing more.
 
Regards,
Nanda
TAD VISNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some formatting problems will post PRIOR POSTINGS next time

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[gita-talk] Re: Sins (Paap) and Virtues (Punya), Please Clairfy, Please Elaborate

QUESTION:
I seek Narinder's learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked
up aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is self
understood? Just for information and if Narinder Bhandari and other Sadhak can
elaborate on the concept further.
N.B. Vyas
-------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Hari Om

The human life is such that there is paap or punya hidden IN EACH  AND EVERY OF THE ACTIONS which you perform, each and every Karma which you make, in each and every role which you play as a human. Gita says – you can not  remain without performing karma even for a fraction of a second during your entire life. Gita further says- all karmas have some defects. Hence unless you  take some concrete steps , whatever you do is capable of becoming a PAAP (sin) - - Logically ! What are those concrete steps ?  Gita says – Convert the Karmas into AKARMAS ! How to do that ? EQUANIMITY !! When you are equanimous, you do not incur a sin .  As simple as that !

Swamiji would often say : Punya is your turning towards the God ! Paap is your remaining engrossed in the world !! You cant easily relinquish the world, hence EQUANIMITY in your actions, in your karmas, in your perception, in your attitude, in your Bhavas- make you SINLESS !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any moral and ethical action that helps a fellow human ( animal or any life)and brings us to god consciousness is punya. Any immoral and unethical act that brings pain to others and moves us away from god consciousness is papam( sin). Truth and ahimsa which represent god ,get us closer to the lord.

Prasad iragavarpu, m.d

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Namaskar,
 
I have read definitions of Paap and Punya.
 
Thanks
 
I just want to know, sometimes we do mistakes and bad things  unknowingly.  Get angry with someone without knowing its impact.  Will that also known as Paap. Are there any ways to correct these?
 
Regards,
 
Ruchira

PRIOR POSTING

Any thought(Vichar) or speech (Vani), action (Kriya) -

if it makes you feel bad, unhappy, uncomfortable, fearful,worrying within is PAAP,  if it makes you feel great, happy, peaceful is Punya

Our bodies are all the time giving the feedback to us at the feeling level.....just be aware and benefit.... get transformed....

Or

If you think, speak, act without being conscious, it is PAAP
With awareness and understanding of truth, everything you think,speak, act becomes PUNYA

The above are very simple but deeply impacting definitions of PAAP or PUNIYA.........
With contemplation, one can benefit instantly.......

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

I agree with Sadhanaji and Naga Narayana. The moment I read these definitions, I felt like asking. Indeed Bhandariji is another gem of this elite group. This group by the grace of God and blessings of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj is getting more and more divine with each passing day. Talent with this group is unique and perhaps only of its kind in the entire planet. Welcome again, O narinderji !! In Shashikalaji's words : Oye Tussi great ho Jee !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------------------------------

Punya is our true nature. When we do good deeds(Punya) we are going with our nature and when we do bad(Paap) things, we are going against our nature. We come to know the difference between right and wrong at a very early age. Everytime we do something good we feel happy while a bad deed creates pangs from our conscience. Needless to say we are what we are today because of our past karmas and our present karmas will decide what we will become. That is the reward or punishment for our deeds.


Hari Shanker Deo

----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Under the Q&A section, you may want to read Questions that were posed to Swamiji and his responses related - SINS AND VIRTUES for additional insights.

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.net/Question_Answer.html

From Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

 


================================

PRIOR POSTING

Narinderji,

Pranaams after Pranaams ... to ... The Center of All ... and to You for the
eloquent teachings for us to appreciate our impotence as such wherein the radii
of our locii start shrnking to savour the nectar thereupon.

Pranaams from an epicenter to another which helps merge the two in The One. My
Sahasra Deergha Danda Namaskaras to You.

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhak,
I never heard /read a better definition of paap and punya then that given by Sadhak Narinderji. Any act, karma, or thought which moves our little ego self to the real Self is punya and vise-e-versa.
with Love,
a Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

Hari Om

........................................................
.........................................................................
....................................................................................................

Indeed - Where you have been searching Him so far, Sadhak ?

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
ah, Vyas jee, Vyas jee, Vyas jee................

every word that  narinder has shared in this forum   speaks only of the search of many lifetimes ...................and the Grace that has silenced that search, in the deep understanding of the One-ness of the word and its source, Silence  .........

when Time( mind) enters into the Kingdom of Timelessness( No-mind) ........ the thirst is forever quenched ............... life and living carries on ..................... what else can poor narinder say, and how ?

MIND TO NO-MIND

The distance from Mind to No-mind

Is only a thought sacrificed

It does not exist.

A word unspoken

A touch unreal

A deed dreamt.

The roar of silence

Stillness spanning Time and Space

Deeper and deeper into Being

I descend

Effortlessly

Sans care

Sans fear

Deeper and deeper into Void

Where the eye or the ear exist not
Nor the dream nor the dreamer

Nor the sweet ignorance of deep sleep

Void

The fullness of experience

Only the fullness of experience

Existence and non-existence ever merging

Into Silence that IS

Just IS.

And, from that No-mind, blossoms life and living ..................... thoughts, words and deeds ........

THANK YOU BELOVED

 Thank you Beloved


 For the Beautiful Thoughts!

Thoughts that lead to the

Deep Silence of Being

Silence of Being that You Yourself  are !!

Silence , the Imperishable Seed !

 That erupts,

 Grows,

 Blossoms and flowers!

Silence,

 The Fruit of which ..

Is

 Wonderous Words and Thoughts

That lead one again

Unto the Silence of Being .

Ah,  thank you Krishna ..........

Thank you Beloved

For your Gift divine.


AUM

narinder
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Dear Geeta Sadhaks, Namaskar,

Shri Vyasji desires a learned clarification from Shri Bhandariji, regarding the
definitions of Paap (Bad Deeds) and Punya (Holy Deeds or Good Deeds). Bhandariji
will give his learned opinion in due course of time, but in the meanwhile, some
thoughts peeped in my brain on this subject and I want to humbly share those
with Geeta Sadhakas...

Paap and Punya are the concepts, introduced by the Great Thinkers of the Past
(GTPs) to establish an ethical order in the society. Any act or deed against the
ethical rules is a bad deed (sin). In our scriptures, even the King of
Gods...Indradev..has gone against the ethical rules. He assumed the the physical
form (Shareer) of Gautam rishi and mated with Gautami in a deliberate absence of
her husband. Actually Indra had tricked Gautam rishi to go to the river for a
bath at odd hours…This is a great great and the most disgraceful sin.

Killing an innocent and weak lifeform is a sin, but a cat never eats a dead
rat..She kills a live rat for her food...it is for her natural
survival...because she kills a rat only when she is hungry and needs food. So
killing an innocent rat is not a paap for the cat.

Helping a sick and needy person in any way is Punya, but giving a big donation
for gaining fame is not an act of Punya.

By the way, there is nobody...no Chitragupta..to keep a record of your Deeds of
Paap and Punya and accordingly send your soul to heaven or hell. If you do bad
acts, you will be ill-treated by the society and punished by law...that is your
hell...and if you do good acts...the society will respect you...that is your
heaven...

...Gee Waman
---------------------------------------------------------

However I ought to refer the following from the message of Bhandariji :

Our conduct can either lead us towards our own Centre ( which is Bliss
infinite), or away from it .That conduct , which leads us towards the Centre, is
termed Punya, and that , which leads us away from our own Centre true, is called
'sin' or papa .

I seek his learned clarification just to know as to from where he picked up
aforesaid definitions of "paap" (sin) and "punya" (virtue) ? Or it is self
understood? Just for information and if he can elaborate on the concept further.

Hari Om Vyas jee,

deep joy of being flowers in narinder's being, when he reads the words in your
various messages .............

to your words above, dear divine vyas jee, narinder can only say ............
what you already know ..


the self is One ..................

In the One, nought exists but the One ................all is the Play of the
Self ...........

The One-ness , when in play, is the Universe , existence as it is ............
prakriti ..... gunas ............

when not in play, The One is in a state of non-existence ................. it
is the Great Void that is purnam , ful-ness, infinite being , being and
non-being ( yes and no both ) ...............

there is neither a Centre, nor any circumference, nor beings , nor non-beings
................

from the above, flows an apperception ( not a perception ... please note ), that
the Centre of the Self-created self, all selfs, all beings, is ONE.

each being is One with that Centre in deep sleep ...............

The yogi becomes One with that Centre in nirvikalpa samadhi .................

and,

suddenly the hitherto entity of the ego,which was till then a seeker, becomes
One with the Sought.... and is no more ...

he enters a timeless state ... the un-knowable state of Self, ... anarvachniya
(that, which words cannot convey).....

BUT

the above is only a recollection (knowledge intuitively experienced?) when the
ego (mind), now a no-mind, becomes an ego again ... this is, perhaps, the state
of being and non-being simultaneously...
to the ego, whom the experience has come as GRACE, knowing and not-knowing
becomes One, doing and not-doing becomes not-two.....

actually , he becomes mute.... he cannot speak, or , say....

now, he is ever silent ..... and it is the Great Silence that speaks through
him ... the SELF now speaks to the self ...........

much flows from this being ... because he is (in reality)no more ...

all is the Self , weaving in the self, the web of joy and love and play, for the
sake of the self .....

concepts are no more concepts ....as long as concepts remain concepts, true
knowledge of Silence remains silent ....

and dear divine Vyas jee, we ... all of us are moving towards that Centre
....... in fact we are that Centre alone ....the centre that is NOT the centre
....

and each one of us one day, some day, comes to realise all that needs to be
realised .....

it is concepts and conditioning of the mind that eclipse the Reality,... and ,
then, begins the Sadhna ........

and it is our thoughts, words and deeds, that lead to the de-eclipsing
................ are the sadhna ...............

when they lead to the gradual de-eclipsing , they are punya....when they further
lead us into eclipsing ... they are papa

the measure of true success of our lived life ... is .... how much the distance
between the self and the Great SELF , has shortened in the present life... we
carry our being with us into the next life ( ....knowledge ?)

what more can narinder say ....?

he knows but little.... only what the Self makes available to him in the Now ,
the Moment Now ...
ah, narinder finds himself impotent again ....... how to say anything about
That, which is not a word !

'love and joy to all the divine sadhaks' ..... is the prayer that rises in
narinder's heart ....
AUM

Narinder Bhandari
-----------------------------------------------


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