Wednesday, December 31, 2008

[gita-talk] Re: Bhagavad Gita - Daily One Verse Brief Explanation - II 1:20 II

II 1:20 II

atha vyavasthitan drishtva, dhartarastran kapi-dhvajah
pravrtte shastra-sampate, dhanur udyamya pandavah
hrishikesham tada vakyam, idam aha mahee-pate (Gita 1:20)

Then, O Lord of the earth, seeing Dhrtarstra's sons arrayed in their
positions and the fighting about to commence, Pandava (Arjuna) whose
ensign badge is Hanuman, lifting his bow, spoke the following words
to Hrsikesa (Krishna).

From Gita Prabodhani in Hindi pg. 9 by Swami Ramsukhdasji
----------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 1, Verse 20 is as follows;

Atha = now
Vyavasthitaan =standing arrayed
Drushtvaa = seeing
Dhartraraashtraan = Kauravaas
KapidhwajaH = monkey ensigned flag
Pravrutte = about to begin
Shastrasampaate = discharge of weapons
DhanuH -Udyamya =having taken his bow
PaandavaH = Arjuna
Hrusheekesham =to Lord Krishna
Tadaa = then
Vaakyam = words
Idam = these
Aah = said
Maheepate = O Lord of the Earth! i. e. O king Dhritarashtra!

English translation:-

O Ruler of the Earth – O king Dhritarashtra, after observing the
army of Kauravaas being positioned and the discharge of weapons
about to commence; Arjuna, whose ensign badge is Hanuman – the
monkey god, lifting his bow named `Gaandiva', spoke the following
words to Krishna.

For the past thirteen years in the exile, Arjuna was meticulously
scheming and planning the battle with his brothers, that was about
to commence hence forth. Suddenly, in a moment of self analysis and
introspection, Arjuna realises that this battle is going to be the
most decisive in his life and quiet distinct from all the earlier
ones that he had fought in his entire career as the best archer in
the Kuru kingdom.

In a fraction of a second, his anguished mind takes over his
intellect and his physical body and he plunges himself into a vortex
of all negative thought processes. He visualizes that the impending
struggle to recapture their usurped kingdom from the vicious
Kauravaas, in the ultimate analysis, will result into an erosion of
his personal value system and a total destruction of the principles
of the pious life that he had lead so far, that was based on the
great traditions of race, family and culture, the law and order of
the then prevailing society, the reverence for the great teachers
and masters, the patriotism – of course, all these from his personal
point of view.

This was the carry forward effect of the arguments of Sanjaya, who
had been asked by king Dhritarashtra to dissuade the Pandavaas from
the battle, by appealing to their nobility and large heartedness.
Even Yudhishthira was impressed by the logic put forward by Sanjaya.
The traces of lingering thoughts of the futility of the battle in
the mind of Arjuna, were about to overpower his intellect and his
sense of the obligatory duty to fight the righteous battle
irrespective of its consequences including the material gains to
himself upon victory.

Arjuna knew quite well who were his enemies. However, the
overpowering of his mind over his intellect stopped him from
initiation of his obligatory duty. In the normal circumstances, he
would have immediately started showering arrows from his divine bow
called as `Gaandiva'. The sudden loss of clarity of thought
processes, which were not based on the superiority of intellect over
mind and physical body, illustrate the devastating effects of the
vacillating human mind, even on the finest human beings like Arjuna.

Thanks & Best Regards,
Shrikant Joshi.

N.B. Goodbye to the troublesome year 2008 to all of us, now let us
look forward to the impending new year 2009. Happy new to all the
fellow Sadhakas! O Lord Krishna, please lead us from unreal to the
Real, from darkness to light and from death to immortality.
----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari
Ram Ram
Thank you Mrs. K Asani for requesting shloka explanation on a daily
basis and Thank you Shri Shrikantji Joshi for taking the initiative
to support this divine work.
From Gita Talk Moderators
Ram Ram

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[gita-talk] Re: Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in
attaining responses to the following -

1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita,
in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any
mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya
(sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in
these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence.

2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma
and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word
Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific
quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or
exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being "Hindu mat" (hindu
philosophy) or "Hindu Dharma"? If this has been written, in which
chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background,
please kindly share.

3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma,
that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna
Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the
establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is
revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa
shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this
Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge
(shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma,
simple said Dharma?

4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only
for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and
make available the related principles / rules / practices.

If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please
forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity.

Vineet Sarvottam

----------------------------------------------------------
NEW POSTING

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

Madan Bhaiyyaa, in Gitaji's Chapter 11, Shloka 18 Arjuna says to
Bhagwaan the word "Shaasvatdharmagoptaa" (protector of eternal
Dharma, protector of righteousness) not "Sanatanadharmagoptaa"
(protector of one who accepts Sanatana Dharma)
nor "Hindudharmagoptaa" (protector of Hindu Dharma) and for
Bhagwaan Himself he calls Him "Sanatana Puruso" (Existing from time
immemorial, Eternal Imperishable Being) not "Shaasvat Purush"
(Immortal Being), nor "Hindu Purush" (Of Hindu Origin).
He "Sanatana" (Eternal) who is beyond (past, present and future),
who is Truth. That "Shaasvatdharma" whose protection Arjuna was
able to speak of to Bhagavaan, that alone in Kaliyug is being called
Sanatana Dharma and will now be called out as Hindu Dharma, such has
not been declared in the entire Mahabharat holy book. In Sadhak
Sanjivani (Hindi) page 924 in the lower half of the page, Swamiji
Himself has said – "Hindu dharma is "anaadi" (without a
beginning), "anant" (infinite) and "Shaasvat" (eternal). This has
been written so because the remaining three religions and sacred
legends most spoken off, - Islam, Buddhist, and Christianity, have
been made known by great souls, whereas "Dharma" (not Hindu dharma,
not Sanatana Dharma) is without a beginning (anaadi), infinite
(anant) , eternal (shaashvat) and sanatana (existing from time
immemorial). With this Dharma, no Hindu, no Muslim, no Buddhist, no
Sikh, no Christian, no Jain, no Judaic, no other word, in the form
of preposition (upasarg) is essential. (and Bhagwaan Himself has
said that on the destruction of righteousness - Dharma, He has
talked about His manisfestation. He has not talked of
some "Sanatana Dharma" or some "Hindu dharma" or some "Shaashvat
dharma". Just as there cannot be two Paramatmas (Supreme
Consciousness), in the same manner, Eternal is only One and that is
Paramatma (whatever Name we may chose to call that One). If
Paramatma is Eternal and without a beginning, and Hindu Dharma
is "Eternal" then in these two, which came first and which came
later? Neither came first, nor any came after. Both are together
names of that One and only Reality (Truth). Whether some one out of
their delusion, calls this Dharma – Hindu / Sanatana by joining a
group or organization believes and presupposes it to be it's own
group's great treasures, then with regards to this matter, what can
Dharma do? In the same manner, if Gitaji is considered to be the
scriptures/doctrines of a particular sect/group, then I would object
and oppose this group. If Gita has been relayed for a particular
group/sect, then was Bhagwaan not capable of saying so that the Path
of Yoga shared in the Gita is for Hindus? Oh! I forgot that
Bhagavaan has in no place (Gitaji or otherwise) used the word Hindu
at all. Therefore it is best if this discussion is put together, as
Gita-Talk members deserving of honor, do not wish to see Gitaji
shared with all of mankind. So be it!

Sarvottam.
---------------------------------------------------------
Dear Madanlalji Kaura
I AM ENJOYING AND APPRECIATIVE O DISCOURSE WHICH HAS BEEN GOING ON
IN THIS
THANKS
A COMMENT

HERE IS WHAT YOU QUOTED IN THIS TRAILING EMAILS

BG (4-7 and 4-8)
Whenever there is a decline in righteousness
and

an upsurge in righteousness,

IS THIS AN UPSURGE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS OR RIGHTEOUSNESS AS YOU QUOTED

LOOKS TO ME IT SHOULD BE UPSURGE IN UNRIGHTEOUESNESS
BUT MAY BE I AM WRONG MAY BE YOU CAN CLARIFY AS BHAGWAN KRISHNA
COMES ON THE EARTH BECAUSE O UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ANY HOW THANKS

O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection
of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for
establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age

Dinesh Patel
----------------------------------------------------------

Faith is only answer for all

Unknown from "lrresources"
----------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari
With all respect to any Dharma.Let me share from where did the word
Hindu derived.In An Ancient India the geographical area was vast
extended.The Sind river was in India.The people from Sind was
actually traders and preachers who migrated everywhere.Sind was
later on started pronounced as Hind, subsequently Hindu.
Now I fail to Understand why there is so much hue and cry as a
religion.It is not religion but actually it the people staying were
called as Hindu. Let me be clear example:people from Mahad called as
Mahadkar,from Chembur as Chemburkar ect.
Let us be one as Hindu in this auspicious Land and be called as
Hindustani rather then dividing ourselves. Thanks to all such person
who say so for their own benifits and cheap publicity in the eyes of
innocent people and further misguiding.
Dharma according to me and as I understood means our Kartavya
(duty) towards our Nation, Mother Earth.

Thanks, God Bless You
Bhawar Shah

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Vineetji

Pls. forgive me, was not able to make it very clear, here is another
attempt - as per the previous note, pls. note that the word 'Hindu'
is not mentioned in any of our scriptures but there is a definite
mention of "Sanatana Dharma"' in Gitaji in the following verses:

BG (11-18), Arjuna says -
"tvamaksaram paramam veditavam, tvamasya visvasya param nidhanam
tvamavayayah sassasvatadharmagopta, sanatanastvam puruso mato me"

You are, I recognize, the Imperishable, the Supreme Being (Aksara)
to be realized; You are the ultimate refuge of this universe; the
protector of Eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and you are the eternally
imperishable Being.

'Tvam sasvatadharmagopta' -
Arjuna says, that when there is, decline of righteousness and rise
of unrighteousness, the Lord by taking an incarnation, destroys the
evil and protects "Sanatana Dharma", the Dharma that has existed
since the time immemorial and shall exist forever.
(Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg.1251 in English and pg. 690 in Hindi).

BG (14-27): Lord Krishna says -
"brahmano hi pratishahamamtrsyavyavasya ca
sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca"

For, I am the abode of Brahma, the immortal and the Imperishable, of
Santana (Eternal) Dharma (Law of righteousness) and of absolute
bliss.

"Sasvatasya ca dharmasya"
Lord Krishna, is the abode of eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and eternal
(Sanatana) Dharma, is the abode of the Lord. It means that the Lord
and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, are one and the same.*

* There are four important Dharmas (Religions) in the world. They
are Hindu (Sanatana or Eternal), Buddhism, Christian and Muslim. The
founders of these are Buddha, Christian and Mohammada respectively.
But the Sanatana Dharma was not originated by anyone, it is eternal
and beginning-less like the Lord. This is discovery made by sages
from India. What is discovered, has its own pre-existence. The
methods of God-realization described in other Dhramas are also the
gift of "Sanatana Dharma".

Whenever there is a decline of this Dharma, the Lord incarnates
Himself for the establishment of Dharma (Gitaji 4/7-8). So the Lord
re-establishes it, He does not find it (just like when something is
lost we find it). Actually all other religions are the product of
Sanatana Dharma only. So if their principles are obeyed without any
desire for their fruit, they will lead to salvation undoubtedly. A
deep thought for salvation as is described in Sanatana Dharma is not
available in other religions. The principles of Sanatana Dharma
(which in time came to be known as Hinduism) are totally scientific
and they lead to salvation.

(Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg. 1577 in English and pg. 855 in Hindi).

Ram Ram

Humble pranams
Madan Kaura
----------------------------------------------------------

RAM RAM,

here are the dictionary meanings of Dharma:

'Dharma' may be defined as the eternal law or the sum of many good
qualities governing, upholding, and supporting creation and the world
order. for example helping each other keeps the world running (Gitaji
3.10-11)

It is the eternal relationship between the creator and His creatures.
It also means way of life, doctrine, principle, prescribed duty,
righteousness, right action, integrity, ideal conduct, custom,
virtue,
nature, essential quality, commandments, moral principles, spiritual
truth, spirituality, spiritual values, and a function within the
scriptural injunction or religion.

= hariom roy

----------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari
Ram Ram

Bhaiyyaa Madan, Your reading and study is good. Now, I have not been
able to study these scriptures at all. From your message from the
Gita verses Gita 4:7, 8, 11-18, no where did I find the word Hindu
or Sanatana Dharma. Eternal Dharma, is in itself to be understood
as Sanatana Dharma, that was not to be found in Gitaji. I want to
undertand the root, the essence of these compositions/works (kruti).
Vineet Sarvottam
----------------------------------------------------------

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Vineetji

Thank you very much for such scholarly and loaded questions, I do
not consider myself qualified to answer the questions adequately but
here is an humble attempt:

QUESTION 1:

After consulting with the scholars in the Detroit area, I learnt to
confirm my own idea that the words "Hindu", "Hinduism", "Hindu
Dharma" are not found in Vedas, Upnishads, Brahma Sutras, Ramayana,
Ramcharitmanas or Puranas. Also, there is no mention of "Hindu" in
3000 stotras composed by Adi Shankracharya and many more by numerous
other sages. Though there is an extensive mention of gods in our
scriptures, for example in the Bhagavad Gita, many of these gods are
mentioned in Chapter 10 and 11. At some point in time in recent
history, these gods have come to be known as Hindu gods.

According to one theory, how the Sanatana Dharma got the name of
Hinduism, it is believed that as Persians came towards India they
called the people living on the east side of river Indus (Sindhu in
Sanskrit) as "Hindus" because they pronounce "S" as "H", so
from `Sindhu' it became `Hindu'. During the Mohammedan rule we took
up the word ourselves. But the word "Hindu" lost its significance
since all people who live on this side of the Indus river in modern
times do not follow the same religion as they did in ancient times,
there are proper Hindus, Mohammedans, Christians, Jains etc. who
also live in India.

QUESTION 2:

The meaning of Dharma is given as which holds and sustains (It is
said in Mahabharat –"when one follows Dharma, it protects"). Dharma
is broadly classified into two ways - Sanatana (Eternal) Dharma and
Swadharma (Individual duty)

Meaning of Sanatana:

- That which is an eternal – ever was, is and ever will be
- That which is not subject to change
- Universal – fundamental truths in it exist at all times and all
places

Meaning of Dharma:

- That which holds and sustains ("When one follows Dharma it
protects" - Mahabharat)
- The levels of Dharma are specified at different levels:
Swadharma (Individual duty) -
. Personal Dharma (As it pertains to personal cleaniness and good
conduct etc.)
. Family Dharma (Duty towards other family relationships)
. Society Dharma (Duty towards social setting, village, city or
town)
. National Dharma (Duty towards one's nation)

The Swadharma or individual duty varies with time, place, conditions
or circumstances.

For Swadharma Dharma, refer to Gitaji verses - 2/ 31-37, 3/35 and 18-
47.

Sanatana Dharma never changes it is:

- That which is an eternal order, governing the laws for the smooth
functioning of this universe
- That which is the inherent nature of things (Ex: Sun giving light,
Basic virtues - Truth, Non-voilence, Compassion, Charity ...)
- That which encompasses all the Spiritual Laws
- That which contains the spiritual laws are eternal and are a means
of God realization
- That which is the source of the spiritual laws

For Sanatana Dharma refer to Gitaji verses 4-7, 4-8 and 11-18

QUESTION 3.

Whenever Dharma is mentioned in Gitaji, it is meant to be in a
broader sense as Sanatana Dharma only. When Dharma applies to
individual duties then the word `Swadharma' is used. This fact is
brought up in several places in Gitaji:

BG (4-1 and 4-2)
In the context of Karma Yoga, Lord Krishna says, I taught this
imperishable Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun God), Vivasvan told it to Manu
and Manu spoke it to Iksvaku. Thus handed down from father to son,
the Royal sages knew it till that Yoga was lost to the world through
long lapse of Time, O' Paramtapa (Arjuna).

BG (4-7 and 4-8)
Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in
righteousness, O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection
of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for
establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age.

BG (11-18)
Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. Thou art the
Ultimate Resort of the Universe; Thou art the protector of the
Dharma; Thou art the imperishable eternal Prime Person, I consider.

QUESTION 4.

All secular and spiritual knowledge is based on Vedas, all
authoritative scriptures are derived from Vedas only. These
scriptures address to the human being in general, therefore the
Sanatana Dharma applies to all races, creeds and cultures, and not
just to Hindus.

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura

----------------------------------------------------------

Pranaams to gita-talk members

Dear Vineet, please see this -

(1) Hindusthan

'HIMAALAYAAM SAMAARAMBHYA
YAAVAT HINDU SAROVARAM
TAM DEVA NIRMITAM DESAM
HINDUSTHANAM PRACHAKSHATHE'

(2) Hindu
'SINDHU PARYANTHAAM YASYAA
BHAARATHA BHOOMIKA, MATHRUBHU : ,
PITHRUBHUSCHAIVA, SA VAI,
HINDU ITHI SMRUTHA'

I am not able to locate the authority for this.
Pranaams
Vijayan

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Dear All,

MEANING OF THE WORD "HINDU"

I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting
brain storming sessions going on.
Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ?
I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad
Gita.
If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our
research group.

Regards,
-Nisarg Joshi
Serial Vedic Learner
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Shri Vineetji,
I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the
Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the
basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya
merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this
respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma
(Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna
did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods
you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit.

There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or
theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects
came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The
worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad
Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being.

Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma
or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if
you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many.
Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.'

The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in
Vedic/Upanishadic times...period.

In Shirdi Sai Smaran,
---Dr N K Srinivasan

----------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari
Ram Ram
All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture,
as it is important for posting to this topic.

Gita Talk Moderator
Ram Ram
----------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING
Respected readers,
My daNdavats to all in this forum.....
So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of
information I wished to share, which is that the word "dharma" I
have always heard translates as "that which one cannot sepatate from
one's very existence". So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the
dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service.
An intelligent person will ask, "OK, so who or what can I serve
eternally?" Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning
more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When
coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many
wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the
service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute,
instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn
self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to
the goal, a loving relationship with God.
reSpectfully,
Mahalaksmi Dasi
----------------------------------------------------------
Namaste

It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc.
According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The
Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we
Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real
meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in
different depending upon their way of attacking, as "_____ Yeda"(mad
person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we
Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in
detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya
Samaj) "Satyartha Prakash" in Hindi and "Light of Truth" in English.
He deals with it.

H.K. Sudhakara

----------------------------------------------------------
Understanding Hindu Dharma. "Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with
expansiveness..." Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan
Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would
seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see
the results today of this division. We have those who unethically
divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and
separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided..."

Swami Param
----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Namaskar
I have gone through the mail "Misunderstanding of Dharma with
Hinduism". It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been
misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been
followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has
ever heard the word "HINDU" or "HINDUTVA" in any of our bhartiya
granthas. All other related words
like "HINDUTVA", "HINDUSTAN", "HINDUSTANI", "HIND", "HINDI" are
derived from the word "HINDU". So the question is that from where
this word "HINDU" came from?

Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our
country "AKHAND BHARAT" (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan,
Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals)
used to call "SINDHU" to the people who lives at the eastern side
and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they
pronounce is as "HINDU". Therefore according to them (Mugals), all
the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri
Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU
DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a
Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat.

According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word "Dharma" denotes the
certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being
like "Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your
Mother)", "Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your
Father)", "Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your
Mother Land)" etc.

Both the words "HINDU" & "DHARMA" have nothing to do with religion
or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much
as possible and understand the real meaning of "HINDU" & "DHARMA"

Dhanyavad
Avadhesh Didwania
----------------------------------------------------------
My dear Vineet Sarvotam,
My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share
what I have heard from others in regard to the word "Hindu". My
opening words are not particularly "authoritative" so please kindly
forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in
your discussion.
Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from
many sadhaks, is that the word "Hindu" was coined by the British.
They were unable to properly pronounce the word "Sindhus" in regard
to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the
Sindhus River, so the word "Hindu" came into the lanuauge. On a
trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane
between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know
the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was
occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a
business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same
thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the
business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and
asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, "He says you are
absolutely correrct." I was amazed that the business man had no
idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to
learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is
Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or
how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do
undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others.
There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri
Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana
Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) "dharmah
svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi
ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam"....."The main purpose of varnasrama-
dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his
natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear
hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not
inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in
accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour."

Respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi
----------------------------------------------------------Dear
Shri Vineet Sarvottam,

All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is.
Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma.

With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points
as below.

Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a
number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas
EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu
river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by
Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious
connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane
and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind
to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas
being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the
supreme scriptures.

Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion.
Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from
Hindustan.

For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken
by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which
originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc
their followers were counted separately and all
religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as
Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by
government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means
Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya
samajists etc.

The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is
mentioned "Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam" Rta- the cosmic laws of social,
moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following
these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested
interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to
follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which
binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can
appreciate the original meaning of Dharma.

Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of
Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual
if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan
Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics,
Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in
Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any
interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in
Vedic Sanatan Dharma

If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very
limited knowledge.

with regards,
Prem Sabhlok

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadak,
At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu
Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam
to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma
purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things.
One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote
irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote
of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in
Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi.
There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man),
Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha
dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These
Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas
are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc.
There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets
have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and
Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300
years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4
yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the
world is square.
In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means
the rightfulness.
In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left
hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said
about how man from morning to evening should behave related to
environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR
HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE.
Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time,
means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these
Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for
people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for
verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan
response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the
event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very
small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once.
To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy.
Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is
consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of
Sanathana Dharma.
To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5
years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and
day out.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan
----------------------------------------------------------

===============================================================
PRIOR POSTING

Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention
of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of
the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way
of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita
which does not apply to people of other religions.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------

"Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah
Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam" (Manu Smriti,
Ch.VI-92)
(1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self
Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6)
Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya –
Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of
Anger.

this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to
personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc...

Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption
to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching'
Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and
this falls in line with our thinking.

Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one
name jehova, allah, etc..
patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also
means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not
that important.

therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club,
gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a
religion but a 'way of life'.
personally i have never subscribed to the way of life buisness
because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in
context of the above this can be understood as something other than
belief, faith, etc...

sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy
by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at
his novel, Island.

there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths.

Ravi Bakhsi

----------------------------------------------------------

The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About
2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were
surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them
as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus.

Mangal Deolal

----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:
1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts
related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further
clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.
2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to
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3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the
extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting
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5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.
6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other
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Ram Ram
---------------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Re: Advice on Dealing with Dishonesty and In-Law Relations

COUNTER QUESTION:

I , in the name of gender equality , I request the questioner (OR
OTHERS) to reply to the following -

How to deal with husband when he is absolutely pro his own
parents and ignores parents of his wife or keeps fighting with
them? Or when he is too attached to his parents and conceals from
his wife certain financial supports which he keeps extending to
his parents and behaves with his mother in law in an opposing and
fighting manner only. When he is too attached with his parents and
ignores in-laws? What if he even indulges into dishonesty with
wife to secretly pass on hard earned money of his or his wife to
his parents ? What are the duties of husband in this regard? How to
control a cold hearted husband like that? What the daughter's
parents should do?
In every situation the duties of husband or wife should be the same
and there should be no difference on the basis of gender disparity.
The wife may be a working wife or a house wife , even when she is a
house wife she has to do so much of family works and has to take so
much of family responsibilities the financial equivalent is much more
than what husband brings as his salary or earning .
The moot question is love , sharing and caring among all relations
selflessly and then and then only peace remains in family

rathindra prasad lahiri
----------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Shree Hari:
Ram Ram.
QUESTION AND COUNTER QUESTION ENCOUNTERED BY ANSWER

Bandhuvar! what is in our hands? nothing. we are neither the doer
nor the enjoyer. once we surrender to God and if afterwards we feel
we can change situations conforming to our wishes, it is great
mistake. as regards duties and rights of wife and husband, the
marriage vows tell us in full detail. either the two lied there or
they didn't understand what they said there to each other. Ignorance
is sin and sin is rewarded inevitably. that's all.
Humbly, Sarvottam.

---------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Dealing with (alleged) dishonesty(?) in any relationship(let alone
in-laws) is free of gender, and applies equally to all parties
involved. What work in relationship are unconditional Love,
patience, endurance, trust, impartiality, selflessness, all of which
are gender-free!
In short If we follow our dharma, karmas will take care of perceived
problems!
Look at it this way:
We may be asking how to control "other" person in relationship
without changing ourselves first. We may be dealing with the person
based on our own image of the "person" in our mind built over the
years of dealing, which is "past" mistakenly taken as present person.
We have to clearly see that solution lies in changing ourselves
first. The change in us changes everything regardless whether or not
the "other" changes or not! Love and honest communications in the
family hold the key to every solution.
What holds us together is our Love for each other and nothing else.
Such Love tells us how to resolve the problem.
When God answers our sincere and impersonal prayers, God changes us
first and then if needed the "other"(my experience). One thing for
sure, when it is all done, it will be fair to all parties whether
we realize or not at that time!

Namaskara........Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Dear Mr Lahiri.

Your counter questions should not be addressed logically IN THE NAME
OF GENDER EQUALITY. There is no equality of duties for respective
relationships. Each has a separate , unique and personal duty.
Moreover, one's duty is rights/entitlement/prerogative (adhikaar) of
another. As far as human birth is concerned it is given for
performance of one's duties and for that only. Hence wife and
husband or father and son or brother and sister or employer and
employee etc etc - no two relations can be so casually equated. More
so when one's duty is another's right/entitlement (adhikaar). Hence
in my humble view your counter question though full of emotions,
lacks in logic from my perspective.

By the way, any talk of equating a female and a male is absolutely
degrading and insulting to females !! They are so much greater than
the males that a talk of equating them with males is an insult to
them. Even Sanatana Dharma gives 1000 times more weightage to a
Mother in comparison with a Father. Why then you should talk about
gender equality. If you want to achieve that, address males to rise
to the levels of females !

Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------
From my point of view, wife has to surrender, and accept the
misbehaviour of her husband as it is , as this is the decision of
Almighty. If there is Almighty , it is also said that HE is
omnipresent , definately there will be a solution to this problem.
But what is required she has to accept her husband as it is .

suresh goel

----------------------------------------------------------

Love and patience
- Unknown -
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Vedas and sastras are framed in such a manner that it is difficult
for normal man to understand. It is very difficult. But they are
framed fool proof and accurately. Even Devatas or God HIMSELF cannot
bypass. Example: Sri Krishna at tender age, stoned Gopi's pots full
of butter while they were carrying on their head. Result HE was
stoned by the woman guardians of Mother Padmavathi (whose temple is
at Tiruchanur at foot of Thirupathi- Wife of Sri Venkateswara) when
Sri Vishnu as Srinivasa came in search of Mother Padmavathi daughter
of Askash Raj. Woman guardians were Gopis in earlier birth and
Bagavan Srinivasa was Sri Krishna then. In similar manner Bagavan
Shiva (in disguise of a laborer)was beaten by Chola king for
rescueing old lady called Pittu.
In Rama Prabavam script it is said: A woman who sins those sins are
bourne by the husband. But if Husband sins, it does not affect his
wife. Since woman are dependent, the acts of men does not affect
women. This is Vedic Sastra- Ref: Yoga Vasista script.
Women are to be silent spectators, by which they become so powerful
that they can stop solar system. Besides after their death, they are
never born again. They are liberated.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan
----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING
ORIGINAL Question: How to deal with wife when she is absolutely pro
her own
parents and ignores parents of her husband or keeps fighting with
them? Or when she is too attached to her parents and conceals from
her husband certain finacial supports which she keeps extending to
her parents and behaves with her mother in law in an opposing and
fighting manner only. When she is too attached with her parents and
ignores in-laws? What if she even indulges into dishonesty with
husband to secretly pass on hard earned money of her husband to her
parents ? What are the duties of husband in this regard? How to
control a cold hearted wife like that? What the son's parents should
do?
Lallubhai Chirimar
----------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

To Respected Vyasji and Dear Sadhaks

I must express my gratitude to all of you and state that I am
really moved by the kind of responses given to me. In retrospect, I
have no hesitation in admitting that I might be overemphasising. I
will not say now even that She also must have erred. I will
definitely now try to see the other side. I got the message. I am
not able to find any fault in the advices given to me. I have to
mend my approach. I made your responses to be read by my parents
also. We want peace in the home- definitely. Kids also want that
perhaps more than us. I will start by unconditionally apologising to
my wife, present all the responses to her, and then seek a common
way out. Thanks . Thank you very much. You really opened my eyes.

Pranaam

Lallubhai Chirimar

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Chirimar,
From your email it appears that there is a communication gap between
the two of you, and the reason is ego, perhaps on both sides. Since
the question arises from you, would like to deal with your
difficulties alone.
Through the letter it appears that you
a/feel your wife is too fond of her own parents
b/is not fond of your parents
c/has full charge of your earnings and misuses that power,
d/ All this increases the tension and friction in your home,
widening the gap in the marriage.

I find strong elements of envy and jealousy form your post, please
look inward, unless you do this, you will not get at the root. It
appears that you belong to the old school which holds, "My parents
are your responsibilities, your parents are nobody's
responsibility." Whe you come from that root, its a recipe for
disaster. She can sense your double standards and therefore is
concealing her gifts to her parents. First, show her by example, how
much you love her parents, take gifts yourself there, and then see
how she will care for your parents. You need to look within and root
out old fashioned views and envy, jealousy and your life will be
great. Meanwhile also observe if there are genuine problems that
need your intervention at home between your parents and your wife.

Lata Jagtiani

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Unconditional Love, honest communication within family, and treating
wife/daughter-in-law as daughter can change such a person.
Gita provides the platform to develop above qualities. To control
wife/daughter is not really the solution as it seems to be implied
in the question.
Investigation into ones own motives, desires and ways to possess
other human beings is what is required here. If we act from some
authority, we need to change to act from understanding!
If we understand where such drives originate in us thoroughly, we
can be free from their grips over us, and only then we can be guided
by wisdom. That's where Gita comes to help.
Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt
----------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna
Dear Lallubhaiji,

I would suggest you to concentrate on fulfilling the role of husband
dutifully. It is a husband's duty to educate her wife wherever she
is crossing the line. Whatever you have said to us, you can also
discuss the same with your wife. Make her aware of your problems.
When you talk she might also reveal some reservations, problems she
is facing with you and your mother, which you might not be aware of.

After discussing the problem even she doesn't want to change then
you can hardly do anything. Ultimately she will only suffer. We have
all come alone and we will all depart alone. We cannot improve
others̢۪ nature, attitude etc. We can only purify our nature.

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia

----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

As a law if you call some one to be dishonest, then some dishonesty
definitely exists in you also ! It is a law. You can't see a trait
in others, if it does not exist in you. What about that dishonesty?
To be pro one's parents, to love one's parents, to serve one's
parents, to help one's parents is a virtue not a vice. - First
thing. Moreover, once you have children, her parents are entitled to
accept even food of your house as per Hindu Sanatan Dharma. There is
nothing wrong or unusual about that.

Secondly, how can she pass on "your" money ? Once you give her money-
it becomes "her" money. It ceases to be your money. Why can't she
utilise money given to her the way she wants? Sure, she is doing a
mistake by being secretive, but that may be because she fears your
disapproval. What will you do, if your parents suffer? If you still
feel that "your" money should be utilised only the way you want that
to be spent, then keep money with yourself. Why do you give her
money and then doubt her? Is it fair? Is it justice?

You state she fights with your parents. That she should not. The
best cure is that you don't fight with your parents. Talk with your
parents, say you don't want her to fight with them. They will
understand. Are you sure she is fighting generally or on specific
issue concerning her own parents? If former is the case then you
should firmly state to her that it is not correct and you should
never fight with your parents. You should set the example. If latter
is correct, then you should think in terms of loving her parents
also as much you love your parents. What is wrong with that? Are
they not your parents also? If you like your parents, then like her
parents also!

In all the cases, distrust and blaming your better half should
cease. If she is not good enough, in accordance with your standards,
stick to your standards by conduct. Talk sweetly to her and tell her
that you don't want her to deal financially with her parents,
secretly. If she has her savings , then she can always do that
openly.

But talk sweetly. Not in a blaming manner. You won't succeed if you
force your powers directly. You will succeed only in worsening the
situation. She is not your slave, bought in an auction. She is your
wife.She got wedded with you , as per divine will , in the presence
and approval of your parents. She is there to settle her prior
contractual obligations with you, and the moment the account is
properly settled, she will cease to be "yours". As simple as that !

Hence if you are insistent upon her not loving her parents, then
believe me you are accumulating negative karmas for yourself.

Read advice of other sadhaks also.

Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Dear Sadak Lallubhai Chirimar,
The wife is given to you based on your previous Karmas. In fact she
is taking away your cause and effect (sins done ealier or previous
birth). She is designed so to behave. Your patience is your tool.
You can hold your financial matters strictly with you secretly. You
don't show hatred to her. Your unpleasent behaviour will only add
more to your Karmas. The total family of your and her`s are on a
stage to peform their dialogues, actions etc, based on your earlier
misdeeds which you are now not aware off. To prove this, just
approach any good astrologer, give your date of birth and time
details, he will tell you the same what you are undergoing. You
only remain witness to all.

The great saint Swami Ramanujam had similar wife. He gave her
warning three times. Then he never uttered any single word to
displease her, but left her in her parents house for good and became
saint. Sant Tukaram had similar wife. She even beat Tukaram with a
sugarcane in his head hard enough that sugar cane split into two
pieces. Sant smiled and said that Panduranga was kind enough to
break two pieces one for him and other for her.
These saints had knowledge about past present and future. In your
case, remain silent and dont add more sins by harsh words, and by
crude actions.
Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Friend

Gita does not have any verse ,to my limited knowledge and
understanding ,for remedy of specific situation refered by you.

However ,it offers solution to basic/root/core problem. There is
no problem which cannot be solved to entire satisfaction of all by
understanding reading and understanding Gita All the characters or
parts in Gita are within us and the fight is internal fight.

Are you willing and prepared to go to war? Read Gita again and again
till you locate solution. I can assure you that you will find an
amicable solution.

regards

Ashok Jain
----------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari
Ram Ram

If we understand the idea of "Vasudeva Sarvam" per Swamiji's
teachings, it becomes clear that all situations that come to us are
for our spiritual growth, benefit and upliftment as God Himself
presents Himself in these various situations.

Swamiji says when a situation comes to us (from God), then why must
we question? A few rupees leaving your household for the care of in-
laws, may be a much needed thing for your extended family, and at
the same time can make your wife feel very helpful, useful, and
happy. At least she did not spending it on jewellery/clothes/kitty
parties with gambling, or other evil things. It is being used for
helping your extended family. Ofcourse her bias to her own parents
is not ideal.
Also you may need to think deeply as to why she found it necessary
to hide and give money? What prevented her from openly sharing with
you her desire to give to her family? It may be worth introspecting.

All unfavorable situations (pratikulataa) result in eradication of
our sins. It is almost as if the debt is getting paid off. During
low periods (unfavorable situations) in one's lives, many devotees
have become great Saints. Therefore all of these situations are
nothing but in your favor. They are cleansing your sins.

Swamiji's book on "How to Lead a Householder Life" has tips for all
members of the family. I will try to include some thoughts from
that book in the next posting.

All will be alright.
Meera Das
Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:
1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts
related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further
clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.
2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to
substantiate your response.
3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the
extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting
sadhaka's time.
5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.
6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other
organizations.
7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone
number, address etc.
8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual
since the message is going to the entire group.
9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.
10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content
is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.
11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,
westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit
words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed
wherever possible.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
---------------------------------------------------------

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[gita-talk] Is Samadhi a Necessary Condition for Moksha?

HARIOM,

Proponents of Dhyana Yoga (Yoga of Meditation)say one must attain
Nivikalp samadhi (a very difficult task for most people) to
completely eradicate the VASANAS (desires, passions, impressions
remaining in the mind) from the causal body. Thus they express that
any one of the other paths of the Holy Gita is not a sufficient
condition for mukti (liberation, benediction, release from rebirth
in the world, emancipation). Please remove my doubts completely and
in detail.

HariOm Roy
----------------------------------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:
1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts
related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further
clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.
2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to
substantiate your response.
3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the
extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting
sadhaka's time.
5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.
6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other
organizations.
7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone
number, address etc.
8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual
since the message is going to the entire group.
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[gita-talk] Re: Advice on Dealing with Dishonesty and In-Law Relations

COUNTER QUESTION:

I , in the name of gender equality , I request the questioner (OR
OTHERS) to reply to the following -

How to deal with husband when he is absolutely pro his own
parents and ignores parents of his wife or keeps fighting with
them? Or when he is too attached to his parents and conceals from
his wife certain financial supports which he keeps extending to
his parents and behaves with his mother in law in an opposing and
fighting manner only. When he is too attached with his parents and
ignores in-laws? What if he even indulges into dishonesty with
wife to secretly pass on hard earned money of his or his wife to
his parents ? What are the duties of husband in this regard? How to
control a cold hearted husband like that? What the daughter's
parents should do?
In every situation the duties of husband or wife should be the same
and there should be no difference on the basis of gender disparity.
The wife may be a working wife or a house wife , even when she is a
house wife she has to do so much of family works and has to take so
much of family responsibilities the financial equivalent is much more
than what husband brings as his salary or earning .
The moot question is love , sharing and caring among all relations
selflessly and then and then only peace remains in family

rathindra prasad lahiri
----------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Hari Om

Dear Mr Lahiri.

Your counter questions should not be addressed logically IN THE NAME
OF GENDER EQUALITY. There is no equality of duties for respective
relationships. Each has a separate , unique and personal duty.
Moreover, one's duty is rights/entitlement/prerogative (adhikaar) of
another. As far as human birth is concerned it is given for
performance of one's duties and for that only. Hence wife and
husband or father and son or brother and sister or employer and
employee etc etc - no two relations can be so casually equated. More
so when one's duty is another's right/entitlement (adhikaar). Hence
in my humble view your counter question though full of emotions,
lacks in logic from my perspective.

By the way, any talk of equating a female and a male is absolutely
degrading and insulting to females !! They are so much greater than
the males that a talk of equating them with males is an insult to
them. Even Sanatana Dharma gives 1000 times more weightage to a
Mother in comparison with a Father. Why then you should talk about
gender equality. If you want to achieve that, address males to rise
to the levels of females !

Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------
From my point of view, wife has to surrender, and accept the
misbehaviour of her husband as it is , as this is the decision of
Almighty. If there is Almighty , it is also said that HE is
omnipresent , definately there will be a solution to this problem.
But what is required she has to accept her husband as it is .

suresh goel

----------------------------------------------------------

Love and patience
- Unknown -
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,
Vedas and sastras are framed in such a manner that it is difficult
for normal man to understand. It is very difficult. But they are
framed fool proof and accurately. Even Devatas or God HIMSELF cannot
bypass. Example: Sri Krishna at tender age, stoned Gopi's pots full
of butter while they were carrying on their head. Result HE was
stoned by the woman guardians of Mother Padmavathi (whose temple is
at Tiruchanur at foot of Thirupathi- Wife of Sri Venkateswara) when
Sri Vishnu as Srinivasa came in search of Mother Padmavathi daughter
of Askash Raj. Woman guardians were Gopis in earlier birth and
Bagavan Srinivasa was Sri Krishna then. In similar manner Bagavan
Shiva (in disguise of a laborer)was beaten by Chola king for
rescueing old lady called Pittu.
In Rama Prabavam script it is said: A woman who sins those sins are
bourne by the husband. But if Husband sins, it does not affect his
wife. Since woman are dependent, the acts of men does not affect
women. This is Vedic Sastra- Ref: Yoga Vasista script.
Women are to be silent spectators, by which they become so powerful
that they can stop solar system. Besides after their death, they are
never born again. They are liberated.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan
----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING
ORIGINAL Question: How to deal with wife when she is absolutely pro
her own
parents and ignores parents of her husband or keeps fighting with
them? Or when she is too attached to her parents and conceals from
her husband certain finacial supports which she keeps extending to
her parents and behaves with her mother in law in an opposing and
fighting manner only. When she is too attached with her parents and
ignores in-laws? What if she even indulges into dishonesty with
husband to secretly pass on hard earned money of her husband to her
parents ? What are the duties of husband in this regard? How to
control a cold hearted wife like that? What the son's parents should
do?
Lallubhai Chirimar
----------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

To Respected Vyasji and Dear Sadhaks

I must express my gratitude to all of you and state that I am
really moved by the kind of responses given to me. In retrospect, I
have no hesitation in admitting that I might be overemphasising. I
will not say now even that She also must have erred. I will
definitely now try to see the other side. I got the message. I am
not able to find any fault in the advices given to me. I have to
mend my approach. I made your responses to be read by my parents
also. We want peace in the home- definitely. Kids also want that
perhaps more than us. I will start by unconditionally apologising to
my wife, present all the responses to her, and then seek a common
way out. Thanks . Thank you very much. You really opened my eyes.

Pranaam

Lallubhai Chirimar

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Chirimar,
From your email it appears that there is a communication gap between
the two of you, and the reason is ego, perhaps on both sides. Since
the question arises from you, would like to deal with your
difficulties alone.
Through the letter it appears that you
a/feel your wife is too fond of her own parents
b/is not fond of your parents
c/has full charge of your earnings and misuses that power,
d/ All this increases the tension and friction in your home,
widening the gap in the marriage.

I find strong elements of envy and jealousy form your post, please
look inward, unless you do this, you will not get at the root. It
appears that you belong to the old school which holds, "My parents
are your responsibilities, your parents are nobody's
responsibility." Whe you come from that root, its a recipe for
disaster. She can sense your double standards and therefore is
concealing her gifts to her parents. First, show her by example, how
much you love her parents, take gifts yourself there, and then see
how she will care for your parents. You need to look within and root
out old fashioned views and envy, jealousy and your life will be
great. Meanwhile also observe if there are genuine problems that
need your intervention at home between your parents and your wife.

Lata Jagtiani

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Unconditional Love, honest communication within family, and treating
wife/daughter-in-law as daughter can change such a person.
Gita provides the platform to develop above qualities. To control
wife/daughter is not really the solution as it seems to be implied
in the question.
Investigation into ones own motives, desires and ways to possess
other human beings is what is required here. If we act from some
authority, we need to change to act from understanding!
If we understand where such drives originate in us thoroughly, we
can be free from their grips over us, and only then we can be guided
by wisdom. That's where Gita comes to help.
Namaskar.........Pratap Bhatt
----------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna
Dear Lallubhaiji,

I would suggest you to concentrate on fulfilling the role of husband
dutifully. It is a husband's duty to educate her wife wherever she
is crossing the line. Whatever you have said to us, you can also
discuss the same with your wife. Make her aware of your problems.
When you talk she might also reveal some reservations, problems she
is facing with you and your mother, which you might not be aware of.

After discussing the problem even she doesn't want to change then
you can hardly do anything. Ultimately she will only suffer. We have
all come alone and we will all depart alone. We cannot improve
others̢۪ nature, attitude etc. We can only purify our nature.

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia

----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

As a law if you call some one to be dishonest, then some dishonesty
definitely exists in you also ! It is a law. You can't see a trait
in others, if it does not exist in you. What about that dishonesty?
To be pro one's parents, to love one's parents, to serve one's
parents, to help one's parents is a virtue not a vice. - First
thing. Moreover, once you have children, her parents are entitled to
accept even food of your house as per Hindu Sanatan Dharma. There is
nothing wrong or unusual about that.

Secondly, how can she pass on "your" money ? Once you give her money-
it becomes "her" money. It ceases to be your money. Why can't she
utilise money given to her the way she wants? Sure, she is doing a
mistake by being secretive, but that may be because she fears your
disapproval. What will you do, if your parents suffer? If you still
feel that "your" money should be utilised only the way you want that
to be spent, then keep money with yourself. Why do you give her
money and then doubt her? Is it fair? Is it justice?

You state she fights with your parents. That she should not. The
best cure is that you don't fight with your parents. Talk with your
parents, say you don't want her to fight with them. They will
understand. Are you sure she is fighting generally or on specific
issue concerning her own parents? If former is the case then you
should firmly state to her that it is not correct and you should
never fight with your parents. You should set the example. If latter
is correct, then you should think in terms of loving her parents
also as much you love your parents. What is wrong with that? Are
they not your parents also? If you like your parents, then like her
parents also!

In all the cases, distrust and blaming your better half should
cease. If she is not good enough, in accordance with your standards,
stick to your standards by conduct. Talk sweetly to her and tell her
that you don't want her to deal financially with her parents,
secretly. If she has her savings , then she can always do that
openly.

But talk sweetly. Not in a blaming manner. You won't succeed if you
force your powers directly. You will succeed only in worsening the
situation. She is not your slave, bought in an auction. She is your
wife.She got wedded with you , as per divine will , in the presence
and approval of your parents. She is there to settle her prior
contractual obligations with you, and the moment the account is
properly settled, she will cease to be "yours". As simple as that !

Hence if you are insistent upon her not loving her parents, then
believe me you are accumulating negative karmas for yourself.

Read advice of other sadhaks also.

Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Dear Sadak Lallubhai Chirimar,
The wife is given to you based on your previous Karmas. In fact she
is taking away your cause and effect (sins done ealier or previous
birth). She is designed so to behave. Your patience is your tool.
You can hold your financial matters strictly with you secretly. You
don't show hatred to her. Your unpleasent behaviour will only add
more to your Karmas. The total family of your and her`s are on a
stage to peform their dialogues, actions etc, based on your earlier
misdeeds which you are now not aware off. To prove this, just
approach any good astrologer, give your date of birth and time
details, he will tell you the same what you are undergoing. You
only remain witness to all.

The great saint Swami Ramanujam had similar wife. He gave her
warning three times. Then he never uttered any single word to
displease her, but left her in her parents house for good and became
saint. Sant Tukaram had similar wife. She even beat Tukaram with a
sugarcane in his head hard enough that sugar cane split into two
pieces. Sant smiled and said that Panduranga was kind enough to
break two pieces one for him and other for her.
These saints had knowledge about past present and future. In your
case, remain silent and dont add more sins by harsh words, and by
crude actions.
Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Friend

Gita does not have any verse ,to my limited knowledge and
understanding ,for remedy of specific situation refered by you.

However ,it offers solution to basic/root/core problem. There is
no problem which cannot be solved to entire satisfaction of all by
understanding reading and understanding Gita All the characters or
parts in Gita are within us and the fight is internal fight.

Are you willing and prepared to go to war? Read Gita again and again
till you locate solution. I can assure you that you will find an
amicable solution.

regards

Ashok Jain
----------------------------------------------------------
Shree Hari
Ram Ram

If we understand the idea of "Vasudeva Sarvam" per Swamiji's
teachings, it becomes clear that all situations that come to us are
for our spiritual growth, benefit and upliftment as God Himself
presents Himself in these various situations.

Swamiji says when a situation comes to us (from God), then why must
we question? A few rupees leaving your household for the care of in-
laws, may be a much needed thing for your extended family, and at
the same time can make your wife feel very helpful, useful, and
happy. At least she did not spending it on jewellery/clothes/kitty
parties with gambling, or other evil things. It is being used for
helping your extended family. Ofcourse her bias to her own parents
is not ideal.
Also you may need to think deeply as to why she found it necessary
to hide and give money? What prevented her from openly sharing with
you her desire to give to her family? It may be worth introspecting.

All unfavorable situations (pratikulataa) result in eradication of
our sins. It is almost as if the debt is getting paid off. During
low periods (unfavorable situations) in one's lives, many devotees
have become great Saints. Therefore all of these situations are
nothing but in your favor. They are cleansing your sins.

Swamiji's book on "How to Lead a Householder Life" has tips for all
members of the family. I will try to include some thoughts from
that book in the next posting.

All will be alright.
Meera Das
Ram Ram

----------------------------------------------------------

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9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.
10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content
is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.
11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,
westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit
words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed
wherever possible.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
---------------------------------------------------------

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