Sunday, November 30, 2008

[gita-talk] Re: Hinduism and Science


Hare Krishna

Swamiji has said that `Hinduism goes from root to leaves whereas
today's science goes from leaves to root.' What does this mean?

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia
----------------------------------------------

ADDITIONAL CLARIFICATION NEEDED

Hare Krishna

Hinduism goes from root to leaves- I am able to understand this
statement.

Although Shobhaji, Madanji, Vyasji and others have addressed the
statement `Science goes from leaves to root', it is still not clear
to me. I mean to ask that where has today's science taken this
approach. Please explain with an example.

Thank You…

Varun P. Paprunia
----------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Hare Krishna

Vineetji, On 27th Aug. 1995, 5.00am, in Jaipur, Swamiji has quoted
this statement. In fact Swamiji's quote was 'Hinduism goes from seed
(not roots) to leaves'. My statement was incorrect. I have heard
this quote in many other discourses and also read it in one of the
books, but not able to recollect it.

Swamiji has only nurtured and fostered Hinduism. What else has He
done? He has spent His entire life in doing so. Each and every word
of Swamiji's are from Hindu scriptures. He has himself said so.(SSS-
page 37 2nd half - left column; and page 522- first para of the
chapter 'Baar Bar ...') The Karan-Sapeksha/Karan-Nirpeksha practice,
worldly-divine (laukik-alaukik) practice etc. are all discoveries
made by Swamiji from Hindu scriptures (which includes Gita) only. He
has only found them which existed before from time immemorial.

Yes, Gita does not specifically mention the word 'Hindu' but it
certainly does give importance to Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism). (Read
chapter 'Gita mein Sanatan Dharma'- page 76 of book 'Gita Darpan'.
Concentrate on the last 2 paras of the article.)

What is the problem in Hindus believing Gita to be its' own
treasure? I don't understand your statement. If we Hindus will not
treasure it then who will treasure it? Read SSS page 992- entire
chapter. In fact, you should read the entire 'Samaj Sudhar' section
of SSS. Today's SECULAR Hindu consider it a shame to read Gita,
Ramayan etc. They abhor Hinduism and make fun of its rich historical
characters. They don't even consider Mahabharata and Ramayana as a
historical event. Deep down they consider Hindu scriptures, puranas,
the gods as any poet's imagination, a folk-lore, an impractical
doctrination by some foolish people. In such dire circumstances if
we will not treasure it then who will treasure it?
Vineetji, according to Swamiji- Sanatan Dharma, Hinduism, Hinduttva
are synonyms. He has not drawn any demarcation line between any of
these terms. If He has drawn any, show me where it is?

You said- Swamiji's words are for the welfare of entire humanity.
Absolutely, no doubt about it, because Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma,
which includes Swamiji's words) spiritual truths, i.e. laws for the
smooth functioning of this universe (dharma). As said by Swamiji,
other religions are a product of Hinduism. (Read SS page 925). So
non-Hindus may equally benefit from Swamiji's words there is no need
to be surprised over it. Gita is so broad that even a practicing
Christian and Muslim can use it to follow his own religion! This is
the speciality of Gita. The biggest astonishment of Swamiji's words
is that everyone can relate to it.

Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) is a dharma (eternal laws for the smooth
functioning of this Universe) not a sect (sampraday). You can call
Vaishnaism, Shaivaism, Advaitaism etc. as sects. I don't think I
have wronged anywhere in comparing Hinduism and Science. (Swamiji
has Himself done so.) The main purpose of today's scientific
inventions are primarily- new ways to derive sensual pleasure,
comfort of body, making more and more money etc., which is not the
purpose of human body (according to Hinduism). FYI... Family-
planning initiatives and abortion are also the product of todays'
science only, which Swamiji has condemned for His entire life.

Your 2nd last statement 'Waise aapko bataa saktaa hu ki jahaan
vijnana asamarth hotaa hai, usi bindu se
adhyaatma, (ne ki koyi sampradaayi) praarambh hotaa hai.'
Agreed Vineetji, I would like to point out that the main purpose of
any religion or sect (sampradaya) is spirituality. Any sect is
formed not for fighting, but for walking towards the ultimate goal.

Your last statement 'Kripayaa vijnaan aur adhyaatma kaa tulanaatmak
suchnaa-sangraha avashya kare.' For doing this I will need to know
details of both the subjects. Honestly, I don't know much about both
of them. If you have done 'TULANAATMAK SUCHNAA-SANGRAHA' on this
then please share the conclusions of that comparison with all of us.

And yes, DRILL this down 'Sanatan-Dharma, Hinduism, Hinduttva' are
one and the same. For protecting dharma, God takes avatar. (Again
read SS page 925)

SS -> Sadhak-Sanjivani (Hindi)
SSS -> Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu
---------------
Thank you for the response Mikeji, I will try to get that book.

Hare Krishna
Varun P. Paprunia

----------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

In my opinion, it is Mike Keenor's beautiful narration which answers
satisfactorily the question of Varunji. Swamiji made this
observation many times. There is nothing wrong in this observation
and there is no purpose served in changing the course of
deliberations. It is a good question and we should concentrate on
answering the same- rather than giving it a different colour.It is
childish to presume or infer any thing about Hinduism or Hindutva
out of this innocent question. There is nothing to "carefully read"
in the message of Vineetji.. Our religion is a way of life, it is
eternal.. No body has denied the fact that the teachings of Gitaji
and Swamiji are meant for humanity at large. Mere mention of Hindu
Dharma by Varunji while posing a question cannot cause so
called "confusion" . But even Swamiji was proud of Hindu Sanatan
Dharma . So am I. So is Varunji. So should be all of us. What is
wrong in that?

By the way the term "vijnana" (science) may not be only what
Vineetji has described it to be. Every worldly or acquired knowledge
is not "science". As stated earlier let us concentrate more on the
question rather than deviating from main theme If "Vijnana" is what
Vineetji has defined then what the "Jnana" is?

The entire world knows that Scriptures like Gitaji are for entire
humanity. It goes without saying. Who has denied that? It indeed is
essence of Upnishads. At the root there is Eternal Sanatan Dharma.
It is undeniable. Hence we should concentrate on giving Varunji
examples- if we possess adequate knowledge to do that. I am not a
science student, but even I could give examples of 9 planets etc. Of
course, science begins journey from leaves and aims at reaching to
roots.

There is "no grave mistake" of any sort whatsoever in any
statements. The question in no way can cause that conclusion. All
confusions are in individual mind only and no where else.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
Science studies and discovers all that are perceived by sense organs
and subsequently conceived as objects, which are always separate
from the Scientist who is the subject of the objects thus conceived.
These objects are empirical in nature(observable and agreed upon by
majority) and are true only relative to one another, not in and of
themselves.
Objects are leaves, branches, trunks and the Subject is the Root, so
to speak. So science remains at the level of leaves etc. Science
cannot and doesn't have access to that which is the ultimate and
true subject of all such conceived objects. In otherwords, the
ultimate subject, Consciousness is not available as laboratory
sample to be studied. This is the Root and as we know the root has
the access to leaves etc whereas leaves etc don't have access to the
Root.

Krishnaji say in Gita: "I" am Kshetragna, the Knower Consciousness
of all objects, and everything else is Kshetra, field of known
including body-mind-intellect etc and as such cannot know "I". This
means Consciousness cannot be objectified as another object.
When Root is known, all else(leaves, etc) is known, as it is total
knowledge and liberation!

This is how/why Vedanta goes from Root to leaves so to speak unlike
science, as Swamiji may have meant to say.
Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

Your question has compelled me to ask where, in what book or what
particular discourse did Shri Shraddhey Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj
say this, which you are quoting. Please kindly share. Swamiji did
not remain nuturing and fostering Hinduism or any particular
doctrine, religious philosphy of a particular sect. Swamiji spoke
for the welfare and upliftment of all beings of all sects and
religious groups. The spiritual truths, the exact explanations and
definitions of words, have in entireness and completeness been on
Gitaji. He has definitely spoken on Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Truths
and Spiritual Laws). The use of the words "Hindutva" or "Hinduism",
whether it has been said in the Gitaji and the extent of it's
description, please kindly share? If Hindus believe that Gitaji is
it's own wealth and treasure, then it is a grave mistake. Swamiji
has at all times, in all his writings and discourses, given the
understanding and made it clear that this is for "all of mankind"
(Manavmaatra). At present there seems to be an understanding of the
comparison of acquired knowledge of the world (vijnaan) and spritual
truths (dharma), however that there is any philosophical or
religious doctrine that is particularly special and criticism of
Science, can lead to nothing other than confusion and doubt. I can
say that wherever acquired knowledge from the world (vijnaan)is
incapable, from that very point, spiritual truths (not a particular
religious doctrine) begins. Kindly share the collective
understanding indicating comparisons between acquired knowledge and
spiritual knowledge without fail. Thank you very much.

Vineet, A Sadhak
Vineet Sarvottam

IN HINDI

Aapke prashna ne baadhya kiyaa hai ki aapse puchaa jai kis Shri
Shraddhey Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj kab kahaa (kis pravachan mein,
kis lekh mein) yeh kahaa jo aap kah rahe hai. Kripayaa bataayiye?
Shraddhey Swamiji hindutattva athvaa anya kisi mat-sampradaayak ke
paushak nahin rahe. Sahdev sabhi sampradaayi aur mat ke manusyon ke
hit mein likhaa hai. Dharma ki unki paribhaashaa purnatah Gitaji
per chali hai. Sanatana Dharma ke baare mein avashya unhaun ne kahaa
hai. Hindutva athavaa Hinduism shabda ka Gitaji mein kahaa aur
kitnaa varanun hai, kripayaa bataayiye ? Hindu sampradaayi yeh
samjhe ki Gitaji unki sampatti hai toh yeh bahut badi bhool hai.
Swamiji ne sadaa sabhi pravachan aur lekh "maanav maatre" ko
sambodhit kiye hai. vartamaan vignaana aur dharma ki tulnaa toh
samajh mein aati hai kintu kisi sampradaayi vishesh aur vijnaan ki
tulnaa brahma ke atirikt kuch nahin de sakengi. Waise aapko bataa
saktaa hu ki jahaan vijnana asamarth hotaa hai, usi bindu se
adhyaatma, (ne ki koyi sampradaayi) praarambh hotaa hai. Kripayaa
vijnaan aur adhyaatma kaa tulanaatmak suchnaa-sangraha avashya
kare. Sa dhanyavaad.

Vineet, ek sadhak

Vineet Sarvottam

----------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

O.K. Varunji,

If you are able to get a copy of 'Raja Yoga', by Swami Vivekananda,
and go to pages 50 through 52, to summarize he writes of how
vibrations set the plane, each plane, invisible to each, and people
on that plane see objects etc on that plane only, but with the use of
Yoga one can see the big picture. Now in my work I often used the
lisague technique, to locate and measure a stream of data amongst
hundreds of other streams, how? By simply synchronizing my reference
to the frequency of the stream I wanted, sounds very much like the
sought of thing the good Swami was talking about. Also remember the
modern physicists now consider all of existence is based on energy
vibration Swami Vivekananda had already said that, remember the
physicists had to travel from the macrocosm to the microcosm as the
methods improved, but the Swami was across the lot.
Now turn to page 57, he saw the coming of wireless energy transfer,
to quote: "This proves that the wire is not really necessary, but
only are inability to dispense with it compels us to use it", he
based his accurate predictions on the basis of the most ancients of
science, he called the science of Yoga.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Science demands proof of everything and tries to explain everything
but there are certain things that cannot be explained. Such as which
came first, the chicken or the egg? How does an inanimate object
like the egg turn into a live chick? Similarly there are so many
things that science cannot explain. That is what Swamiji meant when
he said that science goes from the leaves to the root, which is
unnatural while Hinduism goes naturally from the root to the leaves.
Which means that Hinduism is more logical than science.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Varunji,
Thank you for a very good question. As pointed out very eloquently
by Naga
Narayanaji, that the science jumps from leaf to leaf. Surely,
science is not going from leaf to the root. it goes from inference
to inference only, it makes us believe only what it can prove. With
the limited equipment (senses, mind and intellect), how can God and
His massive creation (being so unlimited) can be understood or
proved by the limited equipment of human being and the science?

Hinduism goes from root to leaves, we start with a firm belief that
God pervades the whole universe, he is the root, the leaves and
whatever else which remains. There are many verses in Gitaji
relating to this topic, !0-8 and 7-7 have been posted in a previous
response, few more are:

Gita (15-1)
"urdhvamulam adhsakham, asvattham prahur avyayam
chandamsi yasya parnani, yas tam veda sa vedvit"

They speak of an imperishable Asvattha (Banyan) tree* with its root
above and branches below; Its leaves are the metres of the Vedas; he
who knows this, is the knower of the Vedas.
*Asvattha tree is in resemblance of the tree of creation

Gitaji (10-39)
"yas ca'pi sarvabhutanam, bijam tad aham Arjuna
na tad asti vina yat syan, maya bhutam caracaram"

Arjuna, I am even that which is the seed of all beings. For there is
no creature, animate or inanimate, which exists without Me.

Gitaji (14-4)
"sarvayonisu kaunteya, murtayah sambhavanti yah
tasam brahma mahad yanir, aham bijapradhah pita"

All the bodies that come into being from different wombs O son of
Kunti (Arjuna), the Mahat Brahma (the great Prakriti) is their womb
and I am the seed giving father.

Gitaji (9-17)
"pita 'ham asyo jagato, mata dhata pitamah
vedam pavitram aumkara, rik sama yadur eva ca"

I am the Father, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather of the
world, the knowable, the purifier, the sacred syllable AUM, and the
three Vedas - Rik, Yajus ans Sama.

Gitaji (9-18)
"gatir bharta prabhu saksi nivasah saranam suhrt
prabhavah pralayah sthanam nidhanam bijam avayam"

I am the Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the
Shelter, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Foundation,
the Treasure-house and the seed Imperishable.

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura
----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Hinduism and Gita analyse the creation differently than science and
right from the beginning focus on the "cause" and not the "effect".
It is not so in case of science. Science begins the journey
from "effect" and attempts to know the "cause". Therefore, what
science is finding out say today, Hindu Scriptures found out
millions of years ago. For example- science
Found out only in 19/20 th century that Pluto/Neptune are also
planets, but Hindu Scriptures are stating from day 1 that there are
9 planets circling the Sun. For a long time science believed earth
to be the centre of creation. Gita/Hindu Scriptures never subscribed
to that view and called Sun to be the focal point. Hundreds of such
examples can be given.

Take for example Gita. Lord starts Gita with discrimination between
soul and body . Which science can ever begin so? A Bhakti Yogi right
from the beginning believes "I am of God". A Jnana Yogi starts
sadhana from "I am Brahma" and never gets down from that level
throughout. A Karma Yogi believes that he doesnot have to "do"
anything for himself, from outset. All three straight away catch the
roots only- and then assess/view/ deal with the world.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------

Science demands proof of everything and tries to explain everything
but there
are certain things that cannot be explained. Such as which came
first, the
chicken or the egg? How does an inanimate object like the egg turn
into a live
chick? Similarly there are so many things that science cannot
explain. That is
what Swamiji meant when he said that science goes from the leaves to
the root,
which is unnatural while Hinduism goes naturally from the root to
the leaves.
Which means that Hinduism is more logical than science.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

In Geeta 10/8 The Lord says -
aham sarvasya prabhavo - I am the origin of all.
HE is the root of all and HE is all too.(See Geeta 7/7 Mattah
parataram nanyatkinchidasti Dhananjay) The modern science tries to
search the secrets of nature
1. by physical means and 2. from outside in. This depth is
unfathomable since HE is the deepest secret of all the Creation and
cannot be found by physical means. While Hinduism has proved that by
searching HIM, the creator, the secrets of nature/science which is
HIS creation - are automatically revealed. Jai Ramjiki.

Dr. Shobha S.
----------------------------------------------------------
A wonderful statement. I would even go further: "Vedaanta goes from
root to leaves, while science jumps from leaf to leaf".

Respects.

Naga Narayana

----------------------------------------------------------
!! Naham Karta Harikartha !!

Hinduism & Science
From the root to the leaves and from leaves to the roots

The thought-provoking manner in which Swamiji has put forth a
comparitive perspective on how our Vedantic religious world view
contrasts with that of the modern scientific world view, using the
example of a process of understanding a tree - from the roots to
leaves or vice versa is really illuminating.

There are ample confusions on this issue even among some very
learned and devout people as much among so-called rationalists and
eminernt philosophers of science.

Generally the basis on which the approach of Hinduism and that of
modern science need to be differentiated must follow from a critique
of following polar positions:

Firstly, the error of absolute identity, which seeks to place our
religious and spiritual traditions and philosophical standpoints at
par with those of science, as if both are not really different and
that they would eventually converge (collapse??) into one another at
some point of time. This error manifests in further litany errors of
claiming that Hinduism is the most scientific of religions and that
from its very inception it has known everything that we otherwise
are now trying to know through science. There is a similar attempts
to portray some of the modern scientists and physicists like
Einstein, as the true "ÿogi" or "rishi" of our times and our own
ancient "rishis" or "seers" of yore as their "poor cousins",
crippled by lack of modern scientific methodology and who therfore
resorted to esoteric modes of explanation.

Secondly, there is an error of absolute contradiction, which seeks
to pit both Hinduism and modern science in exclusion and opposition
to each other and as fundementally irreconciliable. This results in
mutual exclusion, wherein those believing in Hinduism fail to
recognise the distinct validity and autonomy of scientific cognition
and think that one's own religion can indeed explain every thing.
There is a mirror image of the same kind of error among some
adherants of science, who think that science can explain everything
and that religion must therfore be consigned to museum of
history.

Religion and science are like two faces of the same coin; they are
only different cognitive tools of realisation and of knowledge and
the subjects their substantive enquiry are different and distinct.

Both are needed to understand the roots and leaves, as much the
trunk and the branches of tree.

!!! Sri Krishnarpanamasthu !!!

V.A.Acharya

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Hinduism gives knowledge from seed to root, from root to leaves,
from leaves to fruits and flowers. Hinduism says about creation that
was earlier and destroyed and again creation came. Great Saint
Poothanam on whose lap Sri Krishna sat, wrote about 13 worlds (other
than our) in Ngyanapana that people exits there. He also sang about
human birth rare. How human raise from lower births. Upanashids
clearly give about black hole. Sri Krishna took Arjuna by Chariot
through black to reach Vaikunt and brought back a Bramin children to
life.
But science go from evidence that exists and call discovered.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------
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[gita-talk] Re: Hinduism and Science

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

ALL SADHAKS, PLEASE CAREFULLY READ VINEET SARVOTTAMJI'S MESSAGE.
----------------------------------------------------------
Hare Krishna

Swamiji has said that `Hinduism goes from root to leaves whereas
today's science goes from leaves to root.' What does this mean?

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia
----------------------------------------------

ADDITIONAL CLARIFICATION NEEDED

Hare Krishna

Hinduism goes from root to leaves- I am able to understand this
statement.

Although Shobhaji, Madanji, Vyasji and others have addressed the
statement `Science goes from leaves to root', it is still not clear
to me. I mean to ask that where has today's science taken this
approach. Please explain with an example.

Thank You…

Varun P. Paprunia
----------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

Your question has compelled me to ask where, in what book or what
particular discourse did Shri Shraddhey Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj
say this, which you are quoting. Please kindly share. Swamiji did
not remain nuturing and fostering Hinduism or any particular
doctrine, religious philosphy of a particular sect. Swamiji spoke
for the welfare and upliftment of all beings of all sects and
religious groups. The spiritual truths, the exact explanations and
definitions of words, have in entireness and completeness been on
Gitaji. He has definitely spoken on Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Truths
and Spiritual Laws). The use of the words "Hindutva" or "Hinduism",
whether it has been said in the Gitaji and the extent of it's
description, please kindly share? If Hindus believe that Gitaji is
it's own wealth and treasure, then it is a grave mistake. Swamiji
has at all times, in all his writings and discourses, given the
understanding and made it clear that this is for "all of mankind"
(Manavmaatra). At present there seems to be an understanding of the
comparison of acquired knowledge of the world (vijnaan) and spritual
truths (dharma), however that there is any philosophical or
religious doctrine that is particularly special and criticism of
Science, can lead to nothing other than confusion and doubt. I can
say that wherever acquired knowledge from the world (vijnaan)is
incapable, from that very point, spiritual truths (not a particular
religious doctrine) begins. Kindly share the collective
understanding indicating comparisons between acquired knowledge and
spiritual knowledge without fail. Thank you very much.

Vineet, A Sadhak
Vineet Sarvottam

IN HINDI

Aapke prashna ne baadhya kiyaa hai ki aapse puchaa jai kis Shri
Shraddhey Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj kab kahaa (kis pravachan mein,
kis lekh mein) yeh kahaa jo aap kah rahe hai. Kripayaa bataayiye?
Shraddhey Swamiji hindutattva athvaa anya kisi mat-sampradaayak ke
paushak nahin rahe. Sahdev sabhi sampradaayi aur mat ke manusyon ke
hit mein likhaa hai. Dharma ki unki paribhaashaa purnatah Gitaji
per chali hai. Sanatana Dharma ke baare mein avashya unhaun ne kahaa
hai. Hindutva athavaa Hinduism shabda ka Gitaji mein kahaa aur
kitnaa varanun hai, kripayaa bataayiye ? Hindu sampradaayi yeh
samjhe ki Gitaji unki sampatti hai toh yeh bahut badi bhool hai.
Swamiji ne sadaa sabhi pravachan aur lekh "maanav maatre" ko
sambodhit kiye hai. vartamaan vignaana aur dharma ki tulnaa toh
samajh mein aati hai kintu kisi sampradaayi vishesh aur vijnaan ki
tulnaa brahma ke atirikt kuch nahin de sakengi. Waise aapko bataa
saktaa hu ki jahaan vijnana asamarth hotaa hai, usi bindu se
adhyaatma, (ne ki koyi sampradaayi) praarambh hotaa hai. Kripayaa
vijnaan aur adhyaatma kaa tulanaatmak suchnaa-sangraha avashya
kare. Sa dhanyavaad.

Vineet, ek sadhak

Vineet Sarvottam

----------------------------------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

O.K. Varunji,

If you are able to get a copy of 'Raja Yoga', by Swami Vivekananda,
and go to pages 50 through 52, to summarize he writes of how
vibrations set the plane, each plane, invisible to each, and people
on that plane see objects etc on that plane only, but with the use of
Yoga one can see the big picture. Now in my work I often used the
lisague technique, to locate and measure a stream of data amongst
hundreds of other streams, how? By simply synchronizing my reference
to the frequency of the stream I wanted, sounds very much like the
sought of thing the good Swami was talking about. Also remember the
modern physicists now consider all of existence is based on energy
vibration Swami Vivekananda had already said that, remember the
physicists had to travel from the macrocosm to the microcosm as the
methods improved, but the Swami was across the lot.
Now turn to page 57, he saw the coming of wireless energy transfer,
to quote: "This proves that the wire is not really necessary, but
only are inability to dispense with it compels us to use it", he
based his accurate predictions on the basis of the most ancients of
science, he called the science of Yoga.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Science demands proof of everything and tries to explain everything
but there are certain things that cannot be explained. Such as which
came first, the chicken or the egg? How does an inanimate object
like the egg turn into a live chick? Similarly there are so many
things that science cannot explain. That is what Swamiji meant when
he said that science goes from the leaves to the root, which is
unnatural while Hinduism goes naturally from the root to the leaves.
Which means that Hinduism is more logical than science.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Varunji,
Thank you for a very good question. As pointed out very eloquently
by Naga
Narayanaji, that the science jumps from leaf to leaf. Surely,
science is not going from leaf to the root. it goes from inference
to inference only, it makes us believe only what it can prove. With
the limited equipment (senses, mind and intellect), how can God and
His massive creation (being so unlimited) can be understood or
proved by the limited equipment of human being and the science?

Hinduism goes from root to leaves, we start with a firm belief that
God pervades the whole universe, he is the root, the leaves and
whatever else which remains. There are many verses in Gitaji
relating to this topic, !0-8 and 7-7 have been posted in a previous
response, few more are:

Gita (15-1)
"urdhvamulam adhsakham, asvattham prahur avyayam
chandamsi yasya parnani, yas tam veda sa vedvit"

They speak of an imperishable Asvattha (Banyan) tree* with its root
above and branches below; Its leaves are the metres of the Vedas; he
who knows this, is the knower of the Vedas.
*Asvattha tree is in resemblance of the tree of creation

Gitaji (10-39)
"yas ca'pi sarvabhutanam, bijam tad aham Arjuna
na tad asti vina yat syan, maya bhutam caracaram"

Arjuna, I am even that which is the seed of all beings. For there is
no creature, animate or inanimate, which exists without Me.

Gitaji (14-4)
"sarvayonisu kaunteya, murtayah sambhavanti yah
tasam brahma mahad yanir, aham bijapradhah pita"

All the bodies that come into being from different wombs O son of
Kunti (Arjuna), the Mahat Brahma (the great Prakriti) is their womb
and I am the seed giving father.

Gitaji (9-17)
"pita 'ham asyo jagato, mata dhata pitamah
vedam pavitram aumkara, rik sama yadur eva ca"

I am the Father, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather of the
world, the knowable, the purifier, the sacred syllable AUM, and the
three Vedas - Rik, Yajus ans Sama.

Gitaji (9-18)
"gatir bharta prabhu saksi nivasah saranam suhrt
prabhavah pralayah sthanam nidhanam bijam avayam"

I am the Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the
Shelter, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Foundation,
the Treasure-house and the seed Imperishable.

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura
----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Hinduism and Gita analyse the creation differently than science and
right from the beginning focus on the "cause" and not the "effect".
It is not so in case of science. Science begins the journey
from "effect" and attempts to know the "cause". Therefore, what
science is finding out say today, Hindu Scriptures found out
millions of years ago. For example- science
Found out only in 19/20 th century that Pluto/Neptune are also
planets, but Hindu Scriptures are stating from day 1 that there are
9 planets circling the Sun. For a long time science believed earth
to be the centre of creation. Gita/Hindu Scriptures never subscribed
to that view and called Sun to be the focal point. Hundreds of such
examples can be given.

Take for example Gita. Lord starts Gita with discrimination between
soul and body . Which science can ever begin so? A Bhakti Yogi right
from the beginning believes "I am of God". A Jnana Yogi starts
sadhana from "I am Brahma" and never gets down from that level
throughout. A Karma Yogi believes that he doesnot have to "do"
anything for himself, from outset. All three straight away catch the
roots only- and then assess/view/ deal with the world.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------

Science demands proof of everything and tries to explain everything
but there
are certain things that cannot be explained. Such as which came
first, the
chicken or the egg? How does an inanimate object like the egg turn
into a live
chick? Similarly there are so many things that science cannot
explain. That is
what Swamiji meant when he said that science goes from the leaves to
the root,
which is unnatural while Hinduism goes naturally from the root to
the leaves.
Which means that Hinduism is more logical than science.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

In Geeta 10/8 The Lord says -
aham sarvasya prabhavo - I am the origin of all.
HE is the root of all and HE is all too.(See Geeta 7/7 Mattah
parataram nanyatkinchidasti Dhananjay) The modern science tries to
search the secrets of nature
1. by physical means and 2. from outside in. This depth is
unfathomable since HE is the deepest secret of all the Creation and
cannot be found by physical means. While Hinduism has proved that by
searching HIM, the creator, the secrets of nature/science which is
HIS creation - are automatically revealed. Jai Ramjiki.

Dr. Shobha S.
----------------------------------------------------------
A wonderful statement. I would even go further: "Vedaanta goes from
root to leaves, while science jumps from leaf to leaf".

Respects.

Naga Narayana

----------------------------------------------------------
!! Naham Karta Harikartha !!

Hinduism & Science
From the root to the leaves and from leaves to the roots

The thought-provoking manner in which Swamiji has put forth a
comparitive perspective on how our Vedantic religious world view
contrasts with that of the modern scientific world view, using the
example of a process of understanding a tree - from the roots to
leaves or vice versa is really illuminating.

There are ample confusions on this issue even among some very
learned and devout people as much among so-called rationalists and
eminernt philosophers of science.

Generally the basis on which the approach of Hinduism and that of
modern science need to be differentiated must follow from a critique
of following polar positions:

Firstly, the error of absolute identity, which seeks to place our
religious and spiritual traditions and philosophical standpoints at
par with those of science, as if both are not really different and
that they would eventually converge (collapse??) into one another at
some point of time. This error manifests in further litany errors of
claiming that Hinduism is the most scientific of religions and that
from its very inception it has known everything that we otherwise
are now trying to know through science. There is a similar attempts
to portray some of the modern scientists and physicists like
Einstein, as the true "ÿogi" or "rishi" of our times and our own
ancient "rishis" or "seers" of yore as their "poor cousins",
crippled by lack of modern scientific methodology and who therfore
resorted to esoteric modes of explanation.

Secondly, there is an error of absolute contradiction, which seeks
to pit both Hinduism and modern science in exclusion and opposition
to each other and as fundementally irreconciliable. This results in
mutual exclusion, wherein those believing in Hinduism fail to
recognise the distinct validity and autonomy of scientific cognition
and think that one's own religion can indeed explain every thing.
There is a mirror image of the same kind of error among some
adherants of science, who think that science can explain everything
and that religion must therfore be consigned to museum of
history.

Religion and science are like two faces of the same coin; they are
only different cognitive tools of realisation and of knowledge and
the subjects their substantive enquiry are different and distinct.

Both are needed to understand the roots and leaves, as much the
trunk and the branches of tree.

!!! Sri Krishnarpanamasthu !!!

V.A.Acharya

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Hinduism gives knowledge from seed to root, from root to leaves,
from leaves to fruits and flowers. Hinduism says about creation that
was earlier and destroyed and again creation came. Great Saint
Poothanam on whose lap Sri Krishna sat, wrote about 13 worlds (other
than our) in Ngyanapana that people exits there. He also sang about
human birth rare. How human raise from lower births. Upanashids
clearly give about black hole. Sri Krishna took Arjuna by Chariot
through black to reach Vaikunt and brought back a Bramin children to
life.
But science go from evidence that exists and call discovered.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------
GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:
1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts
related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further
clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.
2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to
substantiate your response.
3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the
extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting
sadhaka's time.
5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.
6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other
organizations.
7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone
number, address etc.
8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual
since the message is going to the entire group.
9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.
10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content
is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.
11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,
westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit
words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed
wherever possible.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
---------------------------------------------------------

Post message: gita-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: gita-talk-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: gita-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Saturday, November 29, 2008

[gita-talk] Re: Hinduism and Science

Hare Krishna

Swamiji has said that `Hinduism goes from root to leaves whereas
today's science goes from leaves to root.' What does this mean?

Thanks,

Varun Paprunia
----------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

ADDITIONAL CLARIFICATION NEEDED

Hare Krishna

Hinduism goes from root to leaves- I am able to understand this
statement.

Although Shobhaji, Madanji, Vyasji and others have addressed the
statement `Science goes from leaves to root', it is still not clear
to me. I mean to ask that where has today's science taken this
approach. Please explain with an example.

Thank You…

Varun P. Paprunia
----------------------------------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Science demands proof of everything and tries to explain everything
but there are certain things that cannot be explained. Such as which
came first, the chicken or the egg? How does an inanimate object
like the egg turn into a live chick? Similarly there are so many
things that science cannot explain. That is what Swamiji meant when
he said that science goes from the leaves to the root, which is
unnatural while Hinduism goes naturally from the root to the leaves.
Which means that Hinduism is more logical than science.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

|| Ram Ram ||

Dear Varunji,
Thank you for a very good question. As pointed out very eloquently
by Naga
Narayanaji, that the science jumps from leaf to leaf. Surely,
science is not going from leaf to the root. it goes from inference
to inference only, it makes us believe only what it can prove. With
the limited equipment (senses, mind and intellect), how can God and
His massive creation (being so unlimited) can be understood or
proved by the limited equipment of human being and the science?

Hinduism goes from root to leaves, we start with a firm belief that
God pervades the whole universe, he is the root, the leaves and
whatever else which remains. There are many verses in Gitaji
relating to this topic, !0-8 and 7-7 have been posted in a previous
response, few more are:

Gita (15-1)
"urdhvamulam adhsakham, asvattham prahur avyayam
chandamsi yasya parnani, yas tam veda sa vedvit"

They speak of an imperishable Asvattha (Banyan) tree* with its root
above and branches below; Its leaves are the metres of the Vedas; he
who knows this, is the knower of the Vedas.
*Asvattha tree is in resemblance of the tree of creation

Gitaji (10-39)
"yas ca'pi sarvabhutanam, bijam tad aham Arjuna
na tad asti vina yat syan, maya bhutam caracaram"

Arjuna, I am even that which is the seed of all beings. For there is
no creature, animate or inanimate, which exists without Me.

Gitaji (14-4)
"sarvayonisu kaunteya, murtayah sambhavanti yah
tasam brahma mahad yanir, aham bijapradhah pita"

All the bodies that come into being from different wombs O son of
Kunti (Arjuna), the Mahat Brahma (the great Prakriti) is their womb
and I am the seed giving father.

Gitaji (9-17)
"pita 'ham asyo jagato, mata dhata pitamah
vedam pavitram aumkara, rik sama yadur eva ca"

I am the Father, the Mother, the Sustainer, the Grandfather of the
world, the knowable, the purifier, the sacred syllable AUM, and the
three Vedas - Rik, Yajus ans Sama.

Gitaji (9-18)
"gatir bharta prabhu saksi nivasah saranam suhrt
prabhavah pralayah sthanam nidhanam bijam avayam"

I am the Goal, the Supporter, the Lord, the Witness, the Abode, the
Shelter, the Friend, the Origin, the Dissolution, the Foundation,
the Treasure-house and the seed Imperishable.

Humble regards,
Madan Kaura
----------------------------------------------------------

Hari Om

Hinduism and Gita analyse the creation differently than science and
right from the beginning focus on the "cause" and not the "effect".
It is not so in case of science. Science begins the journey
from "effect" and attempts to know the "cause". Therefore, what
science is finding out say today, Hindu Scriptures found out
millions of years ago. For example- science
Found out only in 19/20 th century that Pluto/Neptune are also
planets, but Hindu Scriptures are stating from day 1 that there are
9 planets circling the Sun. For a long time science believed earth
to be the centre of creation. Gita/Hindu Scriptures never subscribed
to that view and called Sun to be the focal point. Hundreds of such
examples can be given.

Take for example Gita. Lord starts Gita with discrimination between
soul and body . Which science can ever begin so? A Bhakti Yogi right
from the beginning believes "I am of God". A Jnana Yogi starts
sadhana from "I am Brahma" and never gets down from that level
throughout. A Karma Yogi believes that he doesnot have to "do"
anything for himself, from outset. All three straight away catch the
roots only- and then assess/view/ deal with the world.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------

Science demands proof of everything and tries to explain everything
but there
are certain things that cannot be explained. Such as which came
first, the
chicken or the egg? How does an inanimate object like the egg turn
into a live
chick? Similarly there are so many things that science cannot
explain. That is
what Swamiji meant when he said that science goes from the leaves to
the root,
which is unnatural while Hinduism goes naturally from the root to
the leaves.
Which means that Hinduism is more logical than science.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

In Geeta 10/8 The Lord says -
aham sarvasya prabhavo - I am the origin of all.
HE is the root of all and HE is all too.(See Geeta 7/7 Mattah
parataram nanyatkinchidasti Dhananjay) The modern science tries to
search the secrets of nature
1. by physical means and 2. from outside in. This depth is
unfathomable since HE is the deepest secret of all the Creation and
cannot be found by physical means. While Hinduism has proved that by
searching HIM, the creator, the secrets of nature/science which is
HIS creation - are automatically revealed. Jai Ramjiki.

Dr. Shobha S.
----------------------------------------------------------
A wonderful statement. I would even go further: "Vedaanta goes from
root to leaves, while science jumps from leaf to leaf".

Respects.

Naga Narayana

----------------------------------------------------------
!! Naham Karta Harikartha !!

Hinduism & Science
From the root to the leaves and from leaves to the roots

The thought-provoking manner in which Swamiji has put forth a
comparitive perspective on how our Vedantic religious world view
contrasts with that of the modern scientific world view, using the
example of a process of understanding a tree - from the roots to
leaves or vice versa is really illuminating.

There are ample confusions on this issue even among some very
learned and devout people as much among so-called rationalists and
eminernt philosophers of science.

Generally the basis on which the approach of Hinduism and that of
modern science need to be differentiated must follow from a critique
of following polar positions:

Firstly, the error of absolute identity, which seeks to place our
religious and spiritual traditions and philosophical standpoints at
par with those of science, as if both are not really different and
that they would eventually converge (collapse??) into one another at
some point of time. This error manifests in further litany errors of
claiming that Hinduism is the most scientific of religions and that
from its very inception it has known everything that we otherwise
are now trying to know through science. There is a similar attempts
to portray some of the modern scientists and physicists like
Einstein, as the true "ÿogi" or "rishi" of our times and our own
ancient "rishis" or "seers" of yore as their "poor cousins",
crippled by lack of modern scientific methodology and who therfore
resorted to esoteric modes of explanation.

Secondly, there is an error of absolute contradiction, which seeks
to pit both Hinduism and modern science in exclusion and opposition
to each other and as fundementally irreconciliable. This results in
mutual exclusion, wherein those believing in Hinduism fail to
recognise the distinct validity and autonomy of scientific cognition
and think that one's own religion can indeed explain every thing.
There is a mirror image of the same kind of error among some
adherants of science, who think that science can explain everything
and that religion must therfore be consigned to museum of
history.

Religion and science are like two faces of the same coin; they are
only different cognitive tools of realisation and of knowledge and
the subjects their substantive enquiry are different and distinct.

Both are needed to understand the roots and leaves, as much the
trunk and the branches of tree.

!!! Sri Krishnarpanamasthu !!!

V.A.Acharya

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Hinduism gives knowledge from seed to root, from root to leaves,
from leaves to fruits and flowers. Hinduism says about creation that
was earlier and destroyed and again creation came. Great Saint
Poothanam on whose lap Sri Krishna sat, wrote about 13 worlds (other
than our) in Ngyanapana that people exits there. He also sang about
human birth rare. How human raise from lower births. Upanashids
clearly give about black hole. Sri Krishna took Arjuna by Chariot
through black to reach Vaikunt and brought back a Bramin children to
life.
But science go from evidence that exists and call discovered.
Jai Sri Krishna
baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------------------------------------
GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:
1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts
related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further
clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.
2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to
substantiate your response.
3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the
extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas
4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting
sadhaka's time.
5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.
6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other
organizations.
7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone
number, address etc.
8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual
since the message is going to the entire group.
9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.
10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content
is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.
11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,
westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit
words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed
wherever possible.

MODERATOR
Ram Ram
---------------------------------------------------------

Post message: gita-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: gita-talk-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: gita-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Recent Activity
Visit Your Group
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Guides, news,

advice & more.

Featured Y! Groups

and category pages.

There is something

for everyone.

Yahoo! Groups

Going Green Zone

Resources for a greener planet.

Resources for a greener you.

.

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[gita-talk] Re: An Unfavorable Situation - Is it bad karmas? Act of God? Other?

When one is harassed, terrorized and victimized - be it at physical
or mental levels, and one is forced to step out of a marriage...
which otherwise, the person did not or could not take action before,
do you take it as act of God or your own action.

When after being thrown out of house in the middle of the night and
each time this person goes on forgiving and again and again receives
same treatment, and ultimately, after 2 years of separation, the
husband calls her back because he is 64 years and cannot cook. He
is provided with money, house and car ...wife refuses to go back not
out of vengence or hatred but out of self preservation, self esteem
and self worth which was shatered. Husband decides to annul the
marriage since the wife does not go back. Can be taken as plan of
God or the person decides not to become a victim anymore. Husband
has mental problems, but always refused to cure himself. Lives in
the past, highly emotional, obsessed, does not give freedom, had
thrown his two sons out of the house when they had just graduated.
Now he is ready to take treatment but wants the wife home.
The wife is scared and has decided to live separately but pays for
his upkeep. Does she suffer bad karmas?

Kunti D'Souza

----------------------------------------------------------
NEW POSTING

Principle of detachment is the key. But how to practice detachment?
That is the major area that needs to be addressed.

As per spirituality/wisdom of life/rules of life, every
incident/situation is to be
seen as an event (not good or bad event). And the events come in
life to teach us, to train us, to clean us off the dust that is
preventing us to be one with divine.

It (good or bad) is all happening at the thought level.
Thoughts can pull you down to lowest levels and thoughts can lift
you up to highest levels.
Feelings come later. Thoughts will come and go.

The trick is to practice witnessing the thoughts from a distance,
become aware of what is happening to our feelings because of our
thoughts. And if feelings are not good/comfortable/happy then
immediately switch over to positive thoughts by giving the mind
positive thoughts/happy thoughts - It is all good, it will teach me
something, it is for my growth, etc. And see what happens. The
feelings will be change to comfortable ones bringing you back to
your true self. Once you are in control, the desired action to
tackle the situation can be initiated. Again all through this one
has to live in the wisdom - reminding constantly of remaining in
positive thoughts>happy thoughts and work towards "no thoughts"...

Understanding is that the every event, bad or good, has come to
teach us/train us/ take us to higher levels of consciousness. And
have complete confidence/faith in this understanding.

As soon as this is done, detachment starts to happen..and we are in
the happy natural state.....in complete harmony with nature, in
total acceptance of what is happening,....a state of surrender or
bhakti....where nature starts working through us. The small 'I'
goes, The big 'I' remains. And when nature works, it is all good..

Nature takes over the happenings.....the surprisingly even the
events starts to change.....without your asking for it.

Dhanyawad
Sushil Jain

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Aadarneeyaa Sadhna Karigar jee,

Shri Bhagavaan has certainly said `Sarva dharmaan parityajya, maam
ekam sharanam vraja'. But he has also taught: Tasmaat shaastram
pramaanam te kaarya akaarya vyvasthitau/ Gyaatvaa shaastra vidhaan-
oktam karma kartum-ih-arhasi// Gita 16:24

In the former `sarva dharmaan parityajya' does not stands for
renouncing one's Dharmas, but the fruit of Dharmas, because, as per
the teachings of Shri Bhagavan, the former are not to be abandoned
at any cost: niyatasya tu parityaagah karmano nop-padyate.(Gita 18:7)

Dr. Ranjeet Singh
----------------------------------------------------------
-Shree Hari-

God Bless you,

Already you have received good spiritual advice, and some very
practical advice.
So I will give some experiential comment.
Right now a person who treated me in an unspeakable manner over
decades is very likely going to die in the next few hours.
I myself had learned to distance myself, and yet lend help silently
and gently. Over the years from being a person who she hated the
most, I became the person who could do no wrong in her eyes, (I
hasten to add not in mine), she often said, "There had to be a
reason, why you came here to live", she was referring to my wife and
myself, (we moved to the same city. What a change!)

I hope the sons give support to the wife, it makes the task of giving
support to the husband so much easier.
My very humble opinion is, the wife should become detached, but with
compassion, that seems to be the case. (She is not a cook or a
coolie, she is a shining star.)

There is enormous karma being worked out, that is my experience.
Swamiji indicated that unfavorable circumstances can be a blessing, I
bow to him.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor
----------------------------------------------------------
what i do when in conflict with husband who is irrational and does
not realize wife's positive initiatives and ever criticizing I
always pray to god to give him peace of mind. I pray him not to let
me take wrong decision/wrong actions, I pray to him to give a way
out that is satisfactory to both of us and believe me god always
responds . some solution does come up that is satisfactory to both.

I know it is very difficult to put-up with such a husband who is
difficult to live with and difficult to live without. Please
whatever decision you take just keep the god in your heart, pray to
him and the decision will definitely be right.

It is true that whatever unfavorable situations we go thru is the
result of our past karmas but still we have to act, we have to do
our duty to the best of our capability and leave the result to Him.

vandana

----------------------------------------------------------
Jai Shree Krishna,

According to Gita (what I understood), Arjuna wanted to pity on
Kauravas.
But Krishna denied. He wanted them to be punished for their bad
deeds.
So in this case, the women is self dependent, since she is paying
for the upkeep of her husband.
There is no need to go back. This will only help him by fulfilling
his ego.
I don't think Gita supports these type of people in any way. They
should suffer.

Ashok Goenka

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Dear Sadhika,

1. An unfavorable situation could be called result of past bad karma
but to be happy/unhappy or indifferent in that situation is entirely
upon us. As swamiji says the best utilization of favorable situation
is to serve the world, and the best utilization of unfavorable
situation is to go inside and realize our own Self..
2.Usually to fulfill our worldly duties which we call mother's
dharma, or a wife's dharma we forget our true dharma. Our true
dharma is- to realize our own Self, to realize who am I ? The sole
purpose of human birth is to realize God.
3.Due to worldly attachments we forget that we are just PLAYING
roles of a mother/father/wife/husband,actually we are not
mother/father/husband/ or wife of anyone, we need to detach our own
Self from those roles. It is good to perform these duties without
attachment but it is best to practice our true dharma which is to
KNOW GOD/SELF/BRAHMAN.
4.Whenever you have conflict in deciding what dharma to follow,
follow Krishna's guidance, read and contemplate on Gita, the answer
will come to you.
Krishna says-"Sarva dharma paritjya mamek sharanam vrij..."Leave all
dharma aside and completely surrender to Me only....
So leave all yr inner conflict aside and surrender completely to
Krishna only.
5. On this worldly stage, give yr husband another chance or not, is
entirely up to you. Baiya sathyanarayan has explained already that
you are free of this husband-wife bondage, as per our shashtras.
6.Lead life of a Sadhak(a true seeker). Read last 8 stanza of Gita
chapter2. These stanza shows all the characteristics of a true
seekers.A true seeker is always established in God and remain
indifferent in all worldly situations.
I understand the stress and conflict you are going through, but you
are not the role you have been playing, you are part of Brahman/God
who is Satchitanand (Bliss only).Know Thyself...
I am sure you will find Peace, Bliss and Love within.
With lots of Love,
a Sadhika
Sadhna Karigar
----------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
In such situations, I would echo what Sathyanarayanji has said.
Karmas don't mean to make one suffer, they are just the signal to
think and act to correct the situations.
Besides karmas are never personal, they are collective/mass karmas
affecting in an impersonal ways.
If by the grace of God and teachings such as Gita or other
scriptures, and/or wise friend(s), one comes upon the understanding
that one is not a person, an independent doer of his/her deeds, how
can karmas be personal? What I mean is when person itself is an
illusory, his/her karmas have to so! Person is role God is playing
as "you".
If this is not understood clearly, then only seemingly bad/evil
actions stem from that "person" in the name of protecting one
false "me" who is in conflict with another "me".
In all situations, always, God-Impersonal Being, Totality, takes
into considerations interests of all parties involved, meaning
husband, wife, children, other realtives, friends, society etc and
thus the result of such disputes are resolved regardless of personal
interest of one.
What one needs to do is to see this point clearly, and then pray
deeply by asking the help of those who can help, ask Impersonal/God
to help. Then actions will follow from your mind-body as instrument
or channel paving the way for God to act which will be beneficial to
all.
Again God acts only through people for people, by giving them
intelligence to act provided a person lives righteously all his/her
life. If done sincerely then spouses can stay separate in dire
desparate situations, still wishing good for one another. No one
needs to stay fatalistically in an abusive relationship forever
thinking its "my Karmas". Karmas are body of collective ignorance of
all mankind, not mine or yours! Our problem is we believe they
are "mine" or "yours".
Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt
----------------------------------------------------------
Hari Om

The wife in question is confronted with a dilemma regarding
her "duty". Here is a husband who has been say "schizhophrenic" and
mentally ailing for a long long time. Cruelty, harrassment, throwing
kids out of house, arrogance etc have been quite natural for him,
therefore. Treatment is a must for him.

All along wife is kind enough to provide him with financial support
also. The raising of very this question suggests she is
still "attached" by "mineness" with her husband. Understandable.

Fact as appears to me is that now the problem is with husband
because it is now his turn to face the music, to reap the results
of his karmas. He is 64 and needs wife badly as he can see that
nothing can replace a wife in the old age. That is law of karma. So
far this life good wife reaped results of her own past deeds and now
this life bad husband is in clutches of the Law of Karma. Husband
sees no point in getting treated because the main requirement for
him is of wife. He thinks that if wife is there to lift coolly his
tantrums he can lord over as in the past. Logical.
Understandable.

What the wife should do? This is the question. My view is that she
should introspect again if she has soft corner still for him. If
there is no soft corner left, then she can take tough stand
because "service has destroyed mineness /attachment already". If
yes, then she should continue financial support to him, and she
should insist for his medical treatment first. She should weigh the
situation with 2 yardsticks. CAN I do? SHOULD I do ? If she cannot-
it is not her "duty". If she should not- it is not her "duty".
On "should" front she should rely on her "conscience", holy
scriptures, advice of elders and logic.(Shruti/Yukti/Anubhuti).

Are two sons taking care of Mom? If questioner can reply to this, it
will have impact on answer. This answer presumes - Yes !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B
----------------------------------------------------------

Divine atmans
unfavorable situation for a sadhak is the real test
of patience for example in examination paper a student has to
prepare for his exams as per the syllabus similarly if a sadhak is
really in the field of sadhana then his tolerance and his complete
surrender in the feet of lord is seen only in these unfavrable
situation.Lord Krishna said in Shreemad Bhagwat Gita"In all the good
and bad situation if a person keeps on chanting my name and keeps on
thinking of me then that atman is subject to mukti by me":So my dear
sadhak if u r a real lover of lord then see the optimistic approach
behind every unfavorable situation.God never does any thing bad for
his child because he is the real promiser and the real one who can
be trusted because he is the who is with in all of us in the form of
ansh that is atman we are part of him .
So dear plz make ur eyes and views optimistic because in sadhna
optimism play a vital role for god realisation.
Jai Shri Krishna
Raksh Mehra
----------------------------------------------------------
Jai Hanuman

Wife in question can afford not to go back and tolerate any more.
Since he is "husband" given to her by God, she may ensure that he is
put in a mental hospital. A week's treatment there will put his
ailing mind under control. The conduct of husband suggests that he
is acute schizhophrenic. This disease can be brought under control.
He will become like a goat after treatment. All this roarings,
arrogance etc will vanish with medication. She should wish that the
soul that is at present sufferring illusions, hallucinations, and
unrest, can find some peace. A proper medical treatment will solve
the problem.

Real problem is faced in getting him to hospital. There are methods
however available with Doctors for such souls also. HE MUST BE IN A
HOSPITAL FIRST.

She should not consider this man as husband. She should consider him
to be of God and not of her. Thereupon, she should do her duty. What
she can do and what she should do ! She is free now. Bondage is on
the other side. Still she can continue serving- if she can and if
she should. Let her "conscience" decide that.

She should not be over curious in the question regarding her or his
karma. One reaps the results of his karma only.

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee
Shashikala

----------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari
Ram Ram

Sister, whatever unwanted, unfavorable situations that come to us in
this life, it is the fruit of our karmas alone, whether it be from
this life or previous lives. Similarly whatever favorable situations
that come in our life without desiring them, those too are only the
fruits of our past karmas (whether they be from this life or
previous lives). It is not that we are getting the fruits of
someone else's karmas (actions). It does not happen that we can get
the fruits of someone else's actions. Ishvar (God) is not a human
being, therefore deliberating on whether He has done or not, is not
possible. That which IS, That which happens, and That which has
already happened, That itself is Ishvar (God). Remember this -
"That which is not supposed to happen, does not happen. That which
is to happen, happens." And in this to be contented and satisfied,
is what is meant by rising above happiness and unhappiness.

Vineet Sarvottam

----------------------------------------------------------
Dear sadak Kunti D,Sozsa,
It is bounded duty of husband to care of his wife under any
circumstances. Sri Rama is the best example. Knowing Mother seetha
is carried away by Ravana, HE still went all the way to Lanka. Sri
Rama took months to reach sri Lanka. The determination to rescue
mother Seetha never reduced a bit. There were circumstances where
Sri Rama could have doubted Seetha. But Never did so even in mind.
So if one ill treats his wife for some reason or other, may be even
mentally retarded, the wife` s bondage is broken.

Take in case of Saint Meera. She was thrown out by her husband and
even poisioned. But Sri Krishna took care in all moments. Is it due
to bad Karma or not, it is not your look out.

Surrender to GOD (Which ever religion may be), your karmas washes
away, besides your remaining time becomes most useful. If a husband
throws his wife more than 3 times, then the wife has right to stay
away from her husband, sastra says.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan
----------------------------------------------------------

This is a sad situation that is all too common these days. People
spend beyond their means during marriage and live to repent ever
after. Especaily for the woman the situation becomes really bad. In
this condition she should be guided by her own conscience and do
what she thinks is right. If she does that then she won't suffer
bad karmas.

Hari Shanker Deo
----------------------------------------------------------
An unfavourable situation arises due to all combinations

1) Bad Karma
2) Not Attending to Problem in this life itself problem snow balls

A Bad karma brings a bad situation but due to our this life's good
karmas we should be able to over come it.

if we have acted according to prev bad karmas and made this life
karmas more then nobody can save the situation.

Bad Karmas should be phased out slowly thru perservance, good karmas
in this life and surrendering problem to Lord Himself.

Karma is like skin on us, more u rub more pain. it should smoothly
phased out no other way. Karma stops when u do a job related to it
and leave the result to GOD.

Hari Om Tat Sat

Shiva Kumar Shapur

----------------------------------------------------------

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Ram Ram

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