Revisiting older topics to clear pending queue...See NEW POSTING
Gita Talk Moderator
All is only God can be intellectually understood, but how is one to
realize it this by the Self, or to experience it?
Sub kuch bhagvan hi hein yeh baat bhudi se tho shamaz mai aathi hein
Per iska shvyam se anubhav kese ho
Swamiji spoke on Vasudev sarvam, which is full of Bhakti, as well
as, the ultimate realization on Gyan path( Sarvatma Bhava). Just as
Swamiji says, don't identify with that which is perishable, True
gyan is also the same realization about Atman-anatma, I being Atma,
only constant, undivided, Consciousness, Reality, Being. Everything
perishable is also Vasudeva, if "Vasudeva sarvam" has to be true for
Bhakta, seeing God in everything perishable too! In case of true
knowledge, particularly, discovered first handed by Sadhaka through
questions, clarifying doubts, trying to play devil's advocate with
question of non-verifiable belief. If we look at our experience even
now, there is nothing perishable in our experience, we just don't
look at it. All perishables are experienced only by being
conscious/aware and expressed as thoughts/feelings which are nothing
but Consciousness Itself shaped as objects of perceptions! The world
as we know it to be is not independent of Consciousness!
So nothing perishable has ever been experienced by us! Thus
everything here is verily Brahman, says the Sruti! This is why
Vasudeva sarvam is ultimate Gyan.
Thus Gyan/Bhakti are not separate experiences as I see it. I see
this coming out of Swamiji's message if one were to read between the
lines as he always calls God, the supreme Consciousness (Paramatma)!
When he says "Only God is mine and I am His, and no one is mine", it
is for his audiences who may be just beginning on the path so they
will have initial discrimination between perishables and Atman which
But ultimately one has to arrive at God being all and everything is
nothing but God, then even the world of objects is not devoid of
Him, thus experiencing (not only believing) Vasudeva Sarvam!
The chatak bird, only depends and lives on rain water. One time a
chatak bird was flying and it was hit by a baheliye. It fell down,
and Gangaji was flowing. The chatak bird, kept it's beak over the
flowing water, so that by some chance the Ganga water would not
enter it. Similiarly, we too must depend exclusively on only
Bhagwaan for our support. Wandering many places, depending and
placing reliance on others, what is there to gain? Simply surrender
to the one Bhagwan, where is the need for another? A child in his
mothers lap, even has the courage to scold a King, even though the
mother is not a complete embodiment of strength. But God is all
that. Taking refuge in Bhagwan is easy, simple and costs nothing.
God has said one who comes to me just once, saying I am yours,
please protect me, I make him free of all fears, that is my vow.
In this there is no new work that needs to be done, only our
ignorance (our mistake) needs to be wiped out.
Chatak keval varsha jal per depend rahta hein. Ek bar chatak uper
udd ra ha tha ek baheliye ne usko mar diya. Tho vah neche girgaya
niche ganga ji bah rahi thi. Chatak ne apni choch uper kar the ki
kahi gangaji ka jal mukh mein na cha la jay. Vese he hamare ko bhi
keval ek bhagvan ka hi sahara rakhna chahiye.
Jagah jagah bhatak ne se dushro ki garaj karne se kya labh ek
bhagvan ki sharan lelo phir dushre ki kya jarurat hein (balak maa ki
goud mein bheta hota hein tho raja ko bhi dhamka deta hein jab ki
maa sharvshaktiman na hi hein, phir bhagvan tho sharvshaktiman hein.
Sarnagati bhahut sasta, sugam our shareshth sadhan hein. Bhagvan ne
kaha hein ''jo ek bar bhi saran mein akar mai-apka hu esha kah kar
muz se rakhsha ki yachna karta hein u-se mai samashth praniyo se
abhayay ker deta hu yeh mera verth hein. ha mai naya kam karne ki
jarurat nahi hein keval apni bhool mitani hein.
Vasudev Sarvam is Vasdev Sarav roopam, why worry about waste of your
time. You are his, how could the time be yours? Recognize all the 5
attributes of God, you will have the utmost faith and belief of His
being every one's and in all forms of this prikriti (Nature). Never
apply question mark to your belief. God Bless. Hari Motwani
With a true and simple heart accept that you are only God's and only
God is mine. God has said this Jeev is a part of Him and Him alone.
Being an ansh.. part, we are specially His. To consider other things
as our own is a grave mistake. Everything else is perishable, but
even the perishable is Bhagvaan's lower nature. But we instead of
not considering them to be Bhagvaan's, we begin to look at them from
the perspective of enjoying and accumulating these things. It is
only God, the description of that extraordinariness cannot be done
by anyone. Paramatma is infinite, beyond, without boundaries. Even
if all the descriptions of Paramatma from the scriptures and Vedas
etc are put together, even they will not be complete in describing a
small part of Paramatma. Just like Meera Bai said "Mere toh Giridhar
Gopal.." this is realization of the true essence of God. God is
ours and will always remain ours. Besides God, no one else stays
with us, cannot stay with us, then besides God, who should we
consider our own? In the end, one will have to consider only
Bhagvan as own. If we think will this body stay with us? Will
this house, this family stay with us? Will land, wealth stay with
us? Will respect, name, fame stay with us? Nothing will stay with
us, then who should we consider our own?
Sache dil se(herday)sawikar ker le ki hum bhagvan ke hein Our
bhagvan hamare hein. Bhagvan nein jeev ko khas apna aanas bathaya
hein Aanas ho ne ke nahte hum khas bhagvan ke hein Dusare chij ko
apna manna bhahut badi galti hein Bhaki sab kshanbhangur hein
nashvan hein halanki khanbhangur Nashvan bhi bhagvan ke apra prakati
hein Per hum usko bhagvan ki vashtu na manker bhoj our sangrah ki
Dharastri se dekhte hein. Ek parmathma hi hein unki velaxntha ka
pura varnan koi ker Sakta he nahi vah aanat hein,apar hein,ashim
hein,aaj den tak Ved, puran adi shastro mein parmatma ka jo varnan
hu-aa hein Vah sab ka sab ektha ker liya jaye tho us-se parmatma ka
Kisi chote anas ka bhi varnan nahi hoga. Je-se (meera bai ne-mere
tho girdhar gopal.....) Yeh asali tatav ki shamaz ki bhat hein
Bhagvan hamare hein sada hamare rahege. In ke shivay dushara Hamare
sath rahta hi nahi reh saktha nahi phir bhagvan ke sivay Kisko apna
mane annat mai bhagvan ko hi apna manna padega. Vichar kare-kya
sareer her dum sath mai rahega, kya ghar kutumb Sada sath mai
rahega,kya jameen jaydad sada sath rahegi, Kya adar satkar man
bhadai sada sath mai rahegi,jab hamare sath Koi rahne wala nahi tho
phir hum kisko apna mane kisse prem kare
It is written in our scriptures that other than the eight elements,
there is nothing else earth, water, fire, wind, space (ether) (the
five main elements) and mind, intellect and ego. These eight being
part of Paramatma's Nature (prakriti swabhav), they are a form of
Him alone. The body is made up of the five elements and even the
three mind, intellect, and ego are of Paramatma, but we assume them
to be ours which is the mistake we make. This embodied soul also
being part of Paramatma's Nature is part of Paramatma's form. Think
about it, other than these elements, what else is there? Therefore
everything is God only.
Sab jagah Ishvar roop hai "Vasudeva Sarvam iti " Gita 7:19. This
body, the senses, the mind, the intellect, everything.. all in all
is Paramatma, but we believe them to be ours and become bonded,
Because the ultimate, best of all and truthful point is that
EVERYTHING is ONLY GOD.
shastri mein in 8 chijo ke sivay kuch nein hai -prathvi,jal,
aakash,(panch mahabhot)our man,budhi,or ahankar.
ye aatho(8) parmatama perkrti(shbhav) ho ne se permatama ka hi
hein. panchmahabhoto se bana huaa sharir or man ,bhudhi ta-tha
ahankar bhi bhagvan ke he hu-aa in ko hum apna manlete hein
yehi galti hein. jeev bhi parmatama ki prakarti ho ne parmatma ka hi
swaroop hu-aa aap vichar kare aath(8)prakarki apra prakirti jeev our
parmatama -in(10). dus ki sevhay our kya hein sub kuch parmatama hi
hu-ye. (sub jag ishwar roop hein.-VASUDEV SERVAM(GEETA-
SARIR INDRIYA MAN BHUDI SUB KE SUB [PARMATAMA]KE HEIN IN KO HUM APNA
MAN KER HUM BHANDAN MAI PADE HU-AA HEIN.
KARAN KI ANTIM SARAVSHRETH OUR SACHI BHAT YE HI HEIN
SUMMARY OF RESPONSES FROM PREVIOUS QUESTIONS
1) Is Gita 7:19 (All is God) is it or is it not for ordinary people
like me ? If it is rare to be able to realize this, then what is the
point in wasting my time in seeing in everyone God only ?
Do not be discouraged by word "rare". God has said he is Sulabh
(easily attainable) whereas devotee is "durlabh" rarity. "All is
God" is a reality. IT IS. That is ALL. Therefore no question! God
Realization is simple and easy, only we have to be in our simplest
form, like a child seeking His mother. Ignorantly, we do nothing
but "waste our time". When something is really not mine, what right
do I have to "use" or "waste" it? It is self-importance only. Unless
conquered, one cannot attain The Truth ALL IS GOD AND GOD IS ALL.
Therefore move forward or time will move forward.
2) What should be my goal of life?
The only certain goal of life is The Death (of all my goals..etc.)
Our goal in this life should be "God Realisation" only.
I am of my Raam and Raam is mine. Sins of many lifetimes can be
instantly wiped out when we become God's. Mine-ness with God is key,
thereafter after everything is automatic. There is only One, Only
Vishnu. Simple formula:- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, Doosaro na koi. Only
God is Mine, No one else is.
3) Which Scripture should I read and believe in?
Any scripture will do ONLY IF one wields the resolve required.
Believe in yourself. Gitaji is the greatest scripture and time that
is well spent. Let there be one scripture -Bhagavad Gita and let
there be one occupation only - service to the supreme personality of
godhead. "The gates of heaven are guarded by the hounds of hell that
lay within", now with wisdom of The Gita, will add "Turning to God,
will put a leash on these brutes". Gita is for All without
discrimination. Arjun is within each of us.
4) How to see everywhere God/self only, what do I do ?
If you want "Vasudeva Sarvam" It IS and you have it. Read Sadhak
Sanjivani. It is your mind who is in between, DISOWN THE MIND (jad,
inert) and instantly you will be Vasudev: Sarvam." Virtually none
have succeeded so far in controlling the mind, therefore throw in
dust bin, as one cannot attain the imperishable by
the perishable. Mind complicates. Gets stuck on one verse in Gita
Chp 6. Mind is an obstacle in God Realization. This fellow (mind) is
difficult to remove, and also helpful in digging out the filth, by
being a reflecting mirror. I need this fellow till he becomes the
Peace within and vanishes. God is beyond Mind. Self out of
ignorance, falls pray to mind and positions in alien Nature, thus
suffering. (Gita 13:21) Who gets liberated? SELF is eye behind all
eyes (Chakshushashya chakshu). Vasudevah Sarvam cannot be realized
by body, mind, intellect (BMI), as inert cannot realize sentient
that is beyond nature (Gita 15:18). Clearly covered in 50+ Gita
verses. Realization is thru' renunciation of BMI. Stop using Mind at
all first, Vasudevah is beyond mind. Rely on your conscience, on
inner expressions (bhavas). Surrender Mind to God. Be a child,
Daddy is only a subject of belief. Renouncing shelter of BMIE, that
are continually renouncing you. Only by faith and bhava (inner
expression) Vasudeva Sarvam can be realized. Gita addresses three
main paths 1) Gyan yog, 2) Karma yog and 3) Bhakti Yog to
realization, one must assess based on own nature, aptitude and
liking the right path for themselves. Therefore carefully read
Gitaji. Disowning mind is jnana path.
Begin by desiring God. Then "Nam Samaran" (rememberance of God). Do
not be complacent. God is within you and everywhere. He is all
pervasive. To realize this - Meditate. Take shelter of "open eye
meditation" to realize "All is God" Sahaj Sadhana" i.e. Father of
world is beyond knowledge. Don't wait see God Everywhere. Try It.
One either sees God or sees the World. For Chitta Sudhi
(purification) see only God, like seen in devotee's stories
Prahalad etc. It is unwise to confuse knowledge with knowing,
(knowledge through experience). Feel what is live, with every
Breath, heart beat of your body. Vasudeva Sarvam in this context? If
all is God, then our Body-Mind-World also have to be GOD. Dedicate
all to Supreme Almighty and be absolved of all consequences. Lord
Krishna has blessed all approaches.
5) How belief can have doubts? If there is doubt, where is belief?
If there is belief, how there can be doubt?
Doubts are outputs of mind and only mind; Belief is output of what
we have other than mind. Belief can never be , if there is doubt.
Belief is when there is no proof of empirical nature. Child jumping
into mother's arms has no doubts only faith. We are where our mind
is and until curtain (mind) remains, realization is not possible.
We are the Absolute Being, which is Impersonal Intelligence (Supreme
Consciousness) that knows Itself beyond all beliefs. Shraddha, trust,
acceptance originate out of self, which is beyond inert (Jad) Mind.
Gita 7:21 says " I stablise shraddha" i.e. Remove all doubts from
shraddha. "Sthitosmi gat sandeh " I am positioned in doubtlessness.
Only way to God realization is treating the dualities equally -
faith and doubt, known and unknown. etc On must be free of biases.
How can anything be not THAT? In order to have doubt, a knowable
object must be there. In case of THAT Supreme Consciousness, we don't
know anything. When we don't know anything, how the very basis of
doubt will arise. Doubt on what? Hence - Belief and Belief only.
Bhakti marg no doubts. there cannot be wrong in any words
whosoever uttered in whatsoever manner.
6) How "true bhajan" can be done only by "self" ?
Bhajan is Bhajan, if you are not the "doer" and you belong to only
God and God is Everything. Now what is the problem? Be only God's,
thus become free of all problems. True Bhajan is not with the Mind
and always by Self (Gita 18:73). It is where God appears sweet to
you. Love of God is real bhajan, which arises from inner sentiment,
naturally and spontaneously e.g. mother/child. All work becomes
God's work, for His children, living in His house. This is bhajan.
Connection is only God. (Yat karoshi Gita 9:26)
Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram
Beautiful, beautiful satsang indeed... Thanks to all for sharing
the views and experiences. Thanks to moderatorji for managing it.
The bottom line is whether it is, let it be a doubt, faith, trust,
acceptance, rejection, mind, intellect, body, argument, peace, love,
brotherhood or whatever, all, everything, arise from IT and merges
back in IT, ultimately, it is Vasudevam Sarvam, any way! when it
arises waves of restlessness emerges and when it merges it is all
very, extremely peaceful, feel it...!
all is beautiful... Thanks everyone. humble regards,
always at Thy Holy Feet
Definitely everything in this world is God. Rest is all illusion.
This is for everybody since it is true. Hari Shanker Deo
2nd FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS:
Dear Sadhaks, Thank you for right advices to me. I too feel that
mind is obstacle in perceiving reality.
QUESTIONS: But how "true bhajan" can be done only by "self" ? Also
Nagaji said - "Belief must necessarily have doubts" - how belief can
have doubts? If there is doubt, where is belief? If there is belief,
how there can be doubt?
Kindly enlighten. I am feeling over whelmed by nectar flowing from
all of you. Jee Jee Shashikalaji- thanks, I will try to put mind
away while practicing all is God. I see a point there.
At your lotus feet and of Bhagwaan
Thank you! Thanks a lot! Vasudeva smiled on me when I came in touch
with this Gita Talk Group. What a discussion. I AM FULLY SATISFIED .
I am happy to be part of such a divine family. Thanks in particular
to Tamma and Akka. I am fully satisfied and feel I have just now
taken bath in the Holy Ganges. I read entire discussion twice again
today. My wife also joins me in thanking you all. She also read.
Sorry Naga Bhaiyya, if I hurt you. I am proud to be your Akka.
Once you have distanced your "self" with "your" mind- the summit is
not far away. Swamiji says the moment something starts appearing
different than us, that thing is GONE ! Kaajal so long it is in eyes
it is invisible. When it is at a distance , on the finger, it
becomes visible. Whatever is visible is not YOU ! Scene and Seer are
always different !!
The moment one starts cracking jokes on his own mind, it is a clear
indication that one has separated himself from it. ( It is my
personal Experience with this FELLOW). This mind, Tamma Bhaiyya, is
so solid that otherwise that it will never let you crack a joke on
it. After all it controls the body and more often than not- Self
Himself. My hearty greetings to you on this count. Journey has
really now attained pace. The water shall now flow faster towards
Pranaam- from younger Akka to elder Tamma. Pranaam from deep within.
Reading Jee Jee Shashikalasji'
metaphor (I think it is mine): "The gates of heaven are guarded by
the hounds of hell that lay within", now with wisdom of The Gita,
will add "Turning to God, will put a leash on these brutes".
With Respect and Divine Love. Mike (Mike Keenor)
My hearfelt congratulations to Naga Narainji. Indeed you have
exhibited to all of us a divine greatness. Indeed to accept
something arises from within-Self . Indeed divine only is playing
His Lila. Indeed you, me, your Akka all are THAT only ! Indeed this
Satsanga brought Vasudevah Sarvam in all of Us. Indeed Lord Shiva is
with all of us. Lovely response by you. My pranaams to you. Please
keep contributing to Sadhak's questions- it my humble request.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
Those who go against Bhagwaan, they too receive strength from
Bhagwaan, then what to speak of those that are doing Bhajan, will
they not get strength from Bhagwaan? You simply turn towards God,
then sins of a million years will be wiped out, but if you do not
turn towards God, how will this sin of million lifetimes be
destroyed? Bhagwaan gives strength to enemies, as well as, His
loving devotees. In Kaliyug, simply on the support of recitation and
recollection of divine Name, one can cross the ocean of life.
Bhagwan ka virodh kar ne wale danvo ko bhi bhagwan se bal milta
Hai tho kya bhagwan ka bhagan ker ne waloo ko bhagwan se bal nahi
Mi le ga aap bhagwan ke sanmukh ho jaoo tho karodo janmo ke pap nast
Ho jayege per aap sanmukh hi nahi hoje tho pap kese kateje.
Bhagwan shatru-o ko bhi shakti de te hai premiyo ko bhi shakti de te
hai. Kalyuj mai ek name adhara sumir sumir nar ut re paar.
Jai Shree Krishna
One important thing which I feel will give this holy debate
regarding belief a grand final end.
"Doubt" is always on that thing about which we know something and do
not know something- on what is subject matter of knowledge.. In
order to have doubt, a knowable object must be there. In case of
THAT Supreme Consciousness, we don't know anything. When we don't
know anything, how the very basis of doubt will arise. Doubt on
what? Hence - Belief and Belief only.
Hence Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj stated in one of his discourses,
that in the path of Vishwas, (Bhakti Yoga) there should not be any
doubt and in the path of knowledge (Jnana Yoga), there should always
be doubt. This topic was elaborately debated in this forum only a
few months back.
Nagaji, kindly forgive me if I have in any manner caused distress to
you. We all are part of Him only. Your offerring in the divine fire
of this Jnana Yajna is as great as are of all others.
Rajendra J Bohra
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
This is in reference to comments by Sadhakas on my previous
observations on belief and doubt! At the outset I echoed
reconciliatory tone to see how we can see Nagaji's statement "belief
must necessarily have doubts" and views expressed by others "Believe
without doubt - all is God". I didn't imply right or wrong on
In the spirit of sharing I would like to observe the following as
some questions are raised! I am using the context of path of Self-
Knowledge here as we all are sharing knowledge and minds.
The entire teaching of Upanishadas emphasize dialogues between Guru
and desciple where disciple asks questions, raises doubts and get
pointers to discover his/her true nature. He/she is encouraged to
inquire, not what to do or to believe in even what Guru says! It is
the first handed discovery of SELF by him/her which is most
effective in establishing one as SELF! Upon hearing the truth from
the lips of Guru(Shrawana)
taking place right at that time and later(Manana)
It is said that God is such knowingness and not a matter of belief
in the Advaita Vedantic context!
It is also said that God is beyond Knowledge. What it means is that
God cannot be the object of mind or God is not like any other
knowledge where one is subject-knower and God is object-known. Why,
because all objects are limited and God cannot be one!
However, God is Knowingness-
knows all there is to be known. God is PURE Subjectivity, not even
the Subject.(this is not theory, please)
What is known is limited always but Whatever it is that knows is not
limited by anything known, which is God or SELF or our true
identity. Self knows SELF, doesn't need to believe. Knowingness is
not perceiving by mind, but apperception, meaning Knowingness
knowing Itself beyond a shadow of doubt.
What is the meaning of Vasudeva Sarvam in this context? If all is
God, then our Body-Mind-World also have to be GOD. In Vedantic
teaching the first understanding is "I am not the Body-mind
individual I thought I was", this is the descrimination-
the final teaching is "All there is, is Consciousness-
AM", this is Vasudev Sarvam.
Here "I" points to Absolute existence-Conscious
"I" is not body-mind but body-mind is also "I". Such Realization
has to be conveyed to sadhakas, so mind is called in to do this. It
is not the same mind that was worldly before, but servant of SELF so
to speak! Swamiji's messages, and Scriptures are communicated this
way by mind even though the teaching originate beyond mind!
I am overwhelmed by the Love and Concern from my fellow Saadhaks
after all it is truly worthy to have such Satsang. So, let me
rejoice my experience with the Praarthana dawned out of the occasion
raising from The Shiva, the ocean of everything
Everyone is pleading ... drop this fellow - the mind (let me add the
body to the list since mind is inseparable from the body) ... so do
I ... but this unfortunate fellow that I am with does not seem to
respect it. But ... I see that the truely unfortunate one is me who
is standing in between begging this fellow not to ditch me in
lurch ... I cannot fathom how to see anything without him. When I
urge him for the reason, he tells me that I cannot see anything
without him as far as I keep seeing through him. Just shift your
sight you will see ... he hints. But, you see ... I can not
dismiss him as he does not belong to me, he can not quit as he is
tied to me I have to find the knot ... I have to release that
knot ... therefore, I am helplessly waiting till this fellow
realizes that he should retire! He has promised me that he will
retire when I develop confidence that I can see without him ... He
assures, "I will definitely quit when you are ready!" Therefore, I
am preparing to fathom how one could possibly see without him ...
and, see what
I am still inviting the Gana Nartana - the floating thoughts - as I
see and as I can
I have to yet face The Bhairava Nartana - the wrath of desires and
fears within and around
I have to yet invite The Shanmukha to destroy my three fold ego
rooted in body, mind and experience
I have to yet receive The Ganapati to help me appreciate the Gana
Nartana as is as he leads
I have to then collect all my courage to become the stage for the
Taandava Nritya of The Rudra to burn away all my vasanas and sins
I have to then let the Deva Ganga flow through me to wash away the
ashes of the vasanaas and sins
I have to still receive the blessing of The Mother to experience her
great brother the All Compassionate Life
Then I have to wait for the blessings of The Shiva, The Peace as I
am in This Blissful Life
I am still inviting the Gana Nartana - the floating thoughts
still, as I see to and to appreciate it as I can
Let all The Ganas bless me to be worthy of receiving them, The
Thoughts and The Actions, as I can
Let The Bhairava evoke The Courage in me to slaughter my desires and
Let Lord Shanmukha bless my with The Knowledge, breaking the three
cities I have built shattering the imposter hero (Nayaka) hiding
Let Lord Vinayaka bless me with The Wisdom to remove the traces of
this flase Nayaka within
Let Father Rudra bless me with The Strength to withstand the removal
all my urge to dscirminate enroute
Let Mother Gowri bless me The Compassion which mitigates the very
instinct of any discrimination .
Let Lord Shiva shower the The Peace where there is no more
discriminations, dualities, conflicts, relations, emotions,
thoughts, actions, revealing ALL as just THAT and THAT as ALL
Let The Kaivalya break all the gates that I pretend to guard to
flood its agents, The Ganas, The Thoughts and The Actions, the
fellow Sadhakas and their alerts, into me AS THEY ARE
I pray I plead within
Never believe never doubt
Never believe in what you have, in what you know, and in what you
are The Serpent of ignorance poisons you with the venom of beliefs
Never doubt the nature, the freedom, and the completeness The Bull
of inertia stampedes on your very existence in the rage of desires
But, do believe do doubt
Believe that you cannot have, believe that you cannot know and
believe that you are not to be The Serpant of wisdom that is lucky
enough to embrace the Neelakantha
Doubt your possessions doubt your knowledge doubt your
identities to be The Bull of courage that is worthy enough to
carry the Mahadeva
Because, I know I fathom from the depth of my existence
Once The Rudra arrives riding me and comforting me around his neck,
the twins - faith and doubt naturally vanish into Him leaving no
more doubts and no more beliefs but just HIM.
Therefore let me pray
Just a personal note
My understanding is that there cannot be wrong in any words
whosoever uttered in whatsoever manner. The very Bramhan makes every
syllable, every sound and every atom to their perfection as such. In
that case, how can anything built by these basic building blocks can
be NOT perfect?!
Also, however detailed one can express oneself, all the expressions
remain a tip of the iceberg, the experience beneath the expressions
remaining infinitely concealed. Thus, every expression in this world
has its own legitimacy in terms of the experience that backs it up.
Following is my opinion on finding wrong in somebody's utterances:
1. Finding something wrong or objectionable in some body else's
utterances is utterly erroneous in itself since nobody can access
somebody else's iceberg of experience and hence get disqualified
2. It is useless to find wrong and objectionable aspects in
somebody's writings as it does not bring any new understanding one
who finds wrong is sticking to what he already "knows" retaining
one's ignorance intact.
3. It is dangerous to make an attempt to find errors in others
because the very attempt is to justify one's own errors and even to
conceal the same.
Anyway, to let you know, writing is the medium of my meditation - to
purge my thoughts. Therefore, I practice unconstrained writing - it
goes as it comes. Any restraint is an obstacle from the ego. At
least while writing, I, as an ego, do not want that to intrude in
the job of my colleagues mind, intellect and body who truly are
helping the process of my self-cleansing. I don't normally revisit
the writings, because the editor often becomes the ego. As you
understand, the purpose of my writing is to appreciate my own
difficulties NOT TO TEACH ANYBODY! All thewritings posted were
impersonal in nature I request you to treat it the same way and
let me keep it the same way.
Obviously, I have no intentions to negate anybody or hurt anybody
as it so happened the opinions passed through me has converted a
healthy discussion into a warring debate wherein both Shraddha and
Bhajan are thrown into air If it turns to this, I do not need to
post these worthless opinions
I apologize as per somebody's request in the postings I apologize
as per my wish if I have hurt anyone knowngly or unknowingly
just ignore this fellow. Thank You.
Be Blessed and Be Blissed.
Dear Shri Pratap,
Ultimately it is all Shraddha. Yoh yah shraddaha sa eva saha. Gita.
Divakaran Dr. Subbanarasu
Pratap Bhaiyya. Nothing wrong has been told by me, Jee to Naga
Bhaiyya. Where is doubt Jee in belief? Did not I use all four -
word so adored by Swamiji Ramsukdasji Maharaj, Jee! What is wrong
with our reply, Jee?
Yes- mind should be kept in deep freezer Jee? What did you think, it
means literally ? No - it means relinquishing the shelter thereof.
Swamiji many times called it as a "dog" also Jee! Many great Saints
Bhagavatam called it as such Jee. You have to look at "bhava"
Bhaiyya, not the
specific words / language used. There is no negativity there Jee !
Bhaiyya! If SELF is eye behind all eyes (Chakshushashya chakshu)
rightly stated by you - When I said "eye can not see itself", then I
referred to that eye viz "chakshushashya chakshu" only ! Happy
Bhaiyya! I meant to say - Self is not subject matter of knowledge
nor is Paramatma who is Self only. Example given was that of eye. It
can be any eye Bhaiyya! Physical, antar drishti (inner eye), vivek
drishti (conscience eye) or your great "Chakshushashya chakshu" Jee!
Any eye !!
Dear Akka and others!
I am overwhelmed by all your attention on the thoughts passed
through this fellow (mind, in your vocabulary; you may even include
the body here to make this unfortunate fellow complete) who is
unworthy of such attention. It shows it has stirred many of you as
it did to this fellow and to me. Great! He has done his job!!
Please keep throwing these sacred stones at me anyway your poor
Tamma (spoiled younger brother) in distress really needs them
I am trying to alienate and remove this fellow but frankly he has
no shame he keeps bothering me with his thoughts and actions he
pretends that he is providing me the solution to get rid of him as
well! I may
have to wage a war against this fellow but I still want this
fellow by my side
On one side weakness of attachment, he is still dear to me, giving
up on him
does not seem
to be as easy as you all univocally declare you seem to be really
lucky there or, can you give up on your poor Tamma just like that?!
On the other side, he really helps me dig out the filth embedded
deep in my person, This fellow is just a mirror reflecting me and my
filth truthfully all the time I still need this fellow's help to
filth to its core !
The conflict will go on in a sweet way, and in a painful way
irrespective of my wishes one good thing is definitely happening
the awareness of The Knowledge, The Bliss and The Peace. I know we
all mean the
same thing how can anybody utter anything other than THAT when
everything I will try to understand better
I need this fellow's help till THAT FELLOW reveals The Rudra Natya
through his agent, till HE becomes THE PEACE within and around he
is bound to
vanish when The Shiva is revealed in me as this fellow is nothing
once he is gone, what am I without the mirror The Nothing, The
Thanks to this fellow who is facilitating me into a Mumukshu, and
Moksha as far as I do not show my tantrums to collect the filth
dare me or beat me, if I show any symptoms to do so
Thanks for showering your concerns that means a lot to me.
Pratapji has indeed given certain points worth understanding.
Please note that "to believe", is the power of "self" who is beyond
mind and Arjuna at the end of Gita confirmed that doubtless belief
child also confirms this. Hence it can not be said that if doubt is
then belief also is not there.
Clarity on this basic thing can change a sadhak. What did Krishna
say in 7:21? He said " I stablise shraddha". What is that
stablisation ? Removal
of doubts from shraddha. That proves shraddha must be doubtless !!
And that it
can exist without doubt. Clear ?
The use of words "putting mind in deep freezer" or "pure belief"
or "true bhajan" (in Swamiji's language "asli" bhajan) etc. are to
difference between what is commonly understood and what is reality.
No body in
reality puts the mind in deep freezer. But there is no doubt that if
we want to
realise Paramatma, or "Vasudevah Sarvam" then we must renounce the
mind/body etc. Hence "drop the mind" or "put the mind in deep
freezer" - it is not negativity, but necessary.
However beautiful, versatile or amazing this mind may be, for
Paramatma realisation or attainment of peace, it is an obstacle
should be renounced.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
Jai Shree Krishna
I am happy Pratapji agreed that shraddha, trust, acceptance etc are
not outputs of mind. It is true. They originate out of self, which
is beyond inert.(Jad)
Question here is not as to what is dictionary but the issue is that
we are addressing here a sadhak's question of a spiritual
significance to help
sadhaks in their spiritual pursuits. In religion, in Hindu
Scriptures, in Gita
the terms have been used inter changeably. Gita calls it "shraddha"
How do you help a sadhak by telling him that belief can't exist
Is that answer to his query? Is that substantiated by
Gita or Ramayana or by any Scriptures? What about one who considers -
Sarvam" as his spiritual bhava?
Is Gita wrong? Are Saints and Sages wrong? Are Scriptures wrong?
Quote a single
scripture where it is stated that belief cannot exist without doubt?
Gita? Where does it say that belief can't exist without doubt?
Now to say that "belief" originates from mind and "faith" originates
from self- Not a correct argument at all !! In no scripture it is
stated so. We are talking about Gita here.
Hence sadhaks expressed their disagreement. I too did it and I stand
by whatever I said.
Rajendra J Bohra
Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!
I feel compelled to share some observations on posts commenting on
Nagaji's observations on Belief and Doubt resonating deeply with me.
It seems to me the meaning of "Belief" as he uses could be different
than others commenting on it, which could well be the reason, among
others, for differing views, nothing more. We all have different
meanings of the same words depending on our own conditioning /
exposure to those words. I have reconciled it this way. Most common
belief is something one believes in when there
is no proof of empirical nature based on mind, including sense
perceptions, intellect, memory, ego-self(Mind-
say "just believe, don't doubt, drop the mind etc etc". This way it
may get used interchangeably as Faith or Shraddha.
However, for most people, it is not clear that Shraddha(Unshaken
Trust) is not at the level of mind, it is beyond mind, emanating
from the ultimate Knowingness beyond all beliefs.
Unfortunately enough, then, belief is taken to mean at mind level by
them, so the doubt arises invariably. When belief is at mind level,
doubt lurks behind it, like a two-sided coin: one cannot have belief
and not have doubt, is perhaps what is meant to convey! They rise
together, are sustained together and die together! Just as desire
and fear, pain and pleasure, and host of such seemingly dualistic
terms. The moment one desires an object, there is fear of not having
the object of desire simultaneously, one may not notice the real
cause being desire itself. This is so because it is mind's nature in
absence of correct understanding! Correct understanding is that no
such pairs of opposites exist. E. G. Cold is not opposite of Heat as
two independent entities, only one with the degree, termed as other.
When we say "belief" it is relative to "doubt" only whether we
acknowledge or not, mind knows/needs it being relative terms. If, in
a mind there is no doubt, then no belief either, meaning rising
above both to THAT absolute "knowingness" of Atman, Consciousness,
wordless reality of ALL! In the absence of darkness, there is Light
only and nothing else, then do we need to call light a light? It is
THAT whatever it is! Similarly when mind is stripped off doubts(all
such duality) and stand naked, one can say it has "pure belief,
divine belief etc etc" as conventions but understanding is it is the
Absolute THAT! This is my reconciliation between belief(mind based)
and shradhha or faith(beyond mind).
On another point, "part cannot know Paramatma" implying we are part!
But what we are really is not the part(body-mind) that tries to know
God. We are not eye that wants to see eye, we are The Eye behind all
eyes(Chakshusya Chakshuh)! We are the Absolute Being which is
beyond all beliefs, to the extent even ignorance/beliefs cannot
exist without IT! (statements like "I don't know or I am ignorant"
are such Knowingness and we are THAT!).
Another point on mind is that with such deep understanding, the mind
becomes objective instrument to serve the SELF, and not a useless
thing to be put in freezer! I try not to use negeative terms for
such a beautiful instrument helping us on Sadhana to have a glimpse
of our true nature! In such glimpse, mind recognizes itself being
non-existent in itself whose existence is borrowed from Atman-SELF
as instrument to serve!
Still another point is that everything seems coming from what we
call mind, even words of scriptures and sages when spoken or
written. The difference is that Intimations of impersonal truth-
intelligence, right actions, acceptance, etc. originate beyond mind,
and mind having such glimpse only communicates that for the benefits
When a child jumps from up to down, does he do so after thinking
whether he will
fall into his mother's hands, does he have any
doubts there? Does he? What! Does the child not have faith /
belief in the mother? This is faith/belief without any doubts, then
how can you say that without doubt one cannot have faith?
Absolutely ! one can have faith! Even small child has, then what to
speak of adults. Ramchander
Jab ek bacha uper se niche kudta hai ye souch ker ki sidha apni ma
Ke hatho mai jayega tab us bache mai koi douat hota haikya?
Lekin kya us bache mai apni ma per visvas bhinahi hota ?
Ye hai visvas bina sandeh ke aap kai se kah sakte hai ki sandeh ke
Bina vishvas nahi hota hota hai hota hai hota hai
Chote bache ko bhi hota hai bado ki tho bat hi kya.
Jai Shree Krishna
One must drop the mind because, God is beyond mind. Mind is not
instrument of "knowing"- even if for argument sake it is - then God
is beyond knowledge.
What is not subject matter of "knowledge" can only be subject matter
of "belief". Belief can never be , if there is doubt ! NEVER !!
There are specific verses in Gita and why one or two , there is one
entire chapter in Gita which deals only with belief. I humbly don't
agree, with whatever Nagaji has stated re compulsion of doubt with
belief and frankly it makes no sense to me. (I seek his apologies ,
as a sadhak, humbly).
Muraliji - as Rajaji says - Throw away all doubts to the winds. Yes -
All is God! Yes- it is easy. Yes- mind is not required there! Yes-
there should not be any doubt. Yes- there should be belief.
Rajendra J Bohra
Just start seeing God everywhere as expressed by Sathyanarainji and
Gurdasaniji. Don't wait for anything. You can't go wrong, all wrongs
will go away.
Try it, try from functioning of your body. Try with your parents.
Try with your wife. Every day resolve - today I will try to see God
in every one. See instantly how the entire world changes for you.
That will enthuse you more than this academic tangles of knowers,
knowable and knowledge. Know yourself to be of God! That is all the
knowledge is. There can not a belief if there is doubt. Kick away
the doubts totally and stick to belief - All is God !
What did Arjuna say in the end of Gita? Forgotten? He said to Lord
"Sthitosmi gat sandeh, karishye vachanam tav"
( O Achyut) I am now positioned in "doubtless" state, now I shall do
what you say."
That is belief without doubt. Pure Belief. Divine Belief. Real
Doubtlessly and with complete belief start your journey towards -
Vasudevah Sarvam right now. See the God in your wife and mother to
begin with. Keep on adding fast to the list. You will never fail in
your belief. Never doubt. Always believe. You can do that ! You must
do that ! Where was doubt when you said - Mother is mine ? Was there
no belief then? How simple, How easy !!
Go ahead Muraliji. Throw away all doubts. Have solid stone like
belief. You shall realise very fast - It is easy! As easy as it was
when you said - Mom is mine!
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
Yes ! Rush to Him like a child - just as Sathyanarain Bhaiyya. and
Raja Gurdasani Bhaiyya said.
Yes Jee! Daddy is only a subject of belief. Eye can not see itself
Naga Bhaiyyaji. Can it ? Then how can part of Paramatma "know"
itself? Daddy is beyond knowledge. Even Daddy of this world is
beyond knowledge ! Any doubts there - Naga Bhaiyya?
Doubts are outputs of mind and only mind. Belief is output of what
we have other than mind - Self. Self can believe. It believed only
in the world. It can reject also the world! What then is the problem?
No - Naga Bhaiyya , this doting sister finds it incomprehensible -
"if mind is dropped, the knowns are not there with us any more?"
Or "Doubts boils the faith, faith freezes the doubt" or "Whenever we
are scared by what we don't have, we shut ourselves in the cocoon of
what we have believing what we have and doubting what we don't have"
Where is the question of belief in what we have? It is knowledge ,
then Bhaiyya? No belief there! Belief is needed only when there is
no knowledge ! Your aforesaid sentence would have been perfectly
alright had you used word "knowing" instead of "believing" in the
first part and "believing" instead of "doubting" in the second
part. "Knowing what we have, believing what we don't have".
Yes ! "working with mind is also a belief and dropping the same is
another". So all along there is belief only - isn't it ? It has to
be because belief/acceptance is power of "self". Now once you drop
mind - there are no doubts, because all doubts arise out of mind
only. Where is doubt in a child when he rushes to the loving arms of
his Mom ? Because there is no mind there - no doubt there ! But
belief/faith is always there whether you have mind or not. If you
have mind then there is doubt also. When you drop there is belief
remaining ! As simple as that !
When you drop mind, pure belief remains which beliefs takes you to
Eternal Daddy ! Just as Raja Gurdasani Bhaiyya says - approach
Paramatma as a child approaches his mother mindlessly, doubtlessly,
full of faith, belief, shraddha and vishwas !
Go ahead Naga Bhaiyya, try this doting sister's advice also.
Namaste Jee !
Your 2nd question shows how you fall prey to tricks of mind.
Remove all doubts, arguements. Feel what is live, with every breath,
heart beat of your body.
Why, yes, thats too practical & without any disguise.
Do it right now.
M M Purohit: If there is doubt, where is belief? If there is belief,
how there can be doubt? How "true bhajan" can be done only
by "self" ?
We always think in terms of knowns and never pay attention to the
unknown for the very reason that we cannot grasp it. Then, how can
we attain The All when we have no clue of the unknowns we get
perplexed. We always want an answer (belief) to sustain our
existence. Cleverly we see that the mind cannot know the unknown and
come to conclude, "I act through the mind for everything. That is
not possible. Let me drop the mind. Then, I will know the
everything." We forget the fundamentals in the hurry how can we
know the unknown without the knowing instrument, mind? Also, if the
mind is dropped, the knowns are not there with us anymore! If we are
with the mind, we are with knowns only. If we are not with the mind
we are with the unknowns only. The All should include both the
knowns and the unknowns (and if there is anything beyond). Then how
can we ever attain The All?! That is our precarious situation in
appreciating The All. Working with mind is also a belief and
dropping the same is another! When we are dissatisfied with what we
have, we chase what we don't have doubting what we have and
believing what we don't have. Whenever we are scared by what we
don't have, we shut ourselves in the cocoon of what we have
believing what we have and doubting what we don't have. Doubt boils
the faith and faith freezes the doubt. Neither position can take us
to The All. At best we keep shuttling between two poles of opposite
perceptions fear and desire. In the frenzy of switching our modes
of association between faith and doubt in quick successions, we
never notice that the belief and doubt had never separated from each
other even for a moment. We never noticed that one appeared as the
other in quick succession. Only when we see that we are being fooled
by these two ideas, we may attain THAT. Therefore, the only way is
to treat both the polarities faith and doubt, desire and fear,
known and unknown, and all other such dualities equally
simultaneously so that they neutralize each other letting us to be
what we are, The All. Yet such a statement being made through the
same dual media (thoughts, speech, and writing) remains dual in
nature balanced on the fulcrum of faith and doubt and such dualities
Naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyah na medhayaa na bahunaa shrutena |
Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah tasyaiva aatmaa virunute tanum swaam
One cannot attain The Absolute by any kind of discrimination be it
listening to prophecies, repeated reading, educated discussions, or
excrutiatingly intellectual thinking. Untill one frets with the
biases that are triggering the very discrimination what is good
and what is bad in a biased search for attaining the good and for
abolishing the bad one cannot attain THAT. If one just pauses
without interfering with anything within and around, THAT is
revealed in everything within and around as such.
How can anything be not THAT? Then how can I wield the bias of faith
and doubt toward any be it everything, be it something or be it
nothing when everything, something as well as nothing are nothing
but figments of my imagination and when anything and everything
including this imagination is just THAT?? True Bhajan is not doing
it while doing it and doing it while not doing it to be THAT
irerspectively whether I am doing or not doing letting the doing
lead me to itself because all the doing belongs to THAT as such.
If you see the idol in temple as Idol then you cannot see Bagavan.
But if you see as Bagavan and shed tears, you never see idol. But
idol and Bagavan exits. There was one saint in south India known as
Kannappa. That man saw Shiva linga as Bagavan Shiva. From the idol
one eye blood was coming. The man removed his eye and placed on the
eye where blood was coming. Blood stoped. Next eye in the idol
started bleeding. This man removed his another eye to place it on
Shiva. Bagavan appeared. To day that place is in Kala Hasti.
Sri Krishna had pretended to suffer from head ache. The remedy was
that HE required any one bakthas dust from his/her feet.
Narada/Satya Bama/ other refused to give dust from their feet. They
saw Sri Krishna as Lord of Lords. But gopies new the situation and
gave dust from their feet. Gopies saw Sri Krishna as Bagavan and as
Gopala with abundant love. One can see a idol of Sri Krishna and
also see HIM as Bagavan when Niskama Prema Bakthi dwells in the mind.
One Baktha by name Poothanam in Kerala lost his son on the first
birth anniversary. But sat in front of idol of Sri Krishna and sang
a song "Gyana Paana". One can get this song by CD. In the song he
sang that "when you Krishna is as my son, why should I bother for
children". Sri Visnu sent Puspaka Viman in 1645 in which Poothanam
flew to Vaikunt like Tukaram. Here Poothanam saw idol of Sri Krishna
but with deep love as his child. Tukaram saw Panduraga idol as
Bagavan. Idol and Bagavan are one and the same. But we do not realze
I agree with Raja Gurudasaniji. It is only we who complicate what is
otherwise an easy and instant process. We complicate it by
succumbing to the suggestions of mind that-it is difficult, it is
difficult, read chapter 6 of Gita -time, practice, gradual , -they
are tricks played by mind.
It is mind which blocks us only on Chapter 6 of Gita, on one verse
there , and does not let us explore entire 700 verses of Gita. It is
mind which suggests us that God Realisation is difficult.. Mind so
suggests because it is part of Nature. God is beyond it. It is
function of mind to suggest so- if self is positioned in nature, if
self is worldly.
But "self" out of ignorance and stupidity gets undiscriminative and
gets enticed/attracted towards nature and then quite easily falls
prey to the tricks of mind and in fact becomes slave of the mind.
Self is dishonest there. Mind is more honest- it never leaves its
cause and position - Prakriti. It is self who leaves his position
and gets himself positioned into alien Nature - and hence it is
Self who suffers.( Gita 13:21).
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
In Bhaja Govindam, Adi Shankara says"Tvayi mayi anyatra eko
vishnuhu, vyartham kupyasi mayyasahishnuhu" In you and me and
others there is only one only Vishnu. Why are you cross with me?
Ram Ram Murlimanohar bhaiyajee!
Bhajan is 'bhajan' and bhajan is 'bhajan' only, true or false is
ABSURD NOTION. whatever you do (any actions done by body, mind,
intellect etc) is 'bhajan' if you ACCEPT you aren't the DOER as you
are GOD'S only and God is Everything. What problems are there now?
If problems are there, you aren't God's THIS IS DEFINITE. Be God's
only and you won't find any problems ever.
Ram Ram bhaiya.
Friday, October 24, 2008
[gita-talk] Re: All is God (Vasudeva Sarvam) Is this for Everyone? If Rare, why Waste My Time?