How SIN is defined? Who can define SIN? Do animals commit SINS?
Loving your wife is not a SIN, but forcibly loving her against her will is a
SIN?
I think the definition of SIN changes with time. In some cases, whatever was SIN
a century ago is not a SIN today...
So please offer your comments on SIN.....
Gee Waman
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NEW POSTING
Hari Om
Sushilji ! Change of Jeeva from 'animal yoni' and for that purpose from even 'demi gods yoni' or 'ghost yoni' or 'tree yoni' to 'human yoni' is automatic and is governed by Divine Laws . After sufferring pains and/or after enjoying pleasures of hell and/or heaven .. When 'karma balance sheet' gets bit clean ... Paramatma by His Grace again provides an opportunity to Jeeva to realise Him. In fact 'Human Life Only' is the junction from where Jeeva 'chooses' to go to hell or heaven or animalhood or any other hood or of course to "Param Pad" ( from where he does not have to come back for ever: BG 15:6) !! Thus, all duties/restrictions/choices/ alternatives are open ONLY in "human yoni" ! Balance all are "Bhoga yonis" !! Your example that a Saint blessed a lion should be interpreted as the vision of that Saint to see end of animal cycle for the great soul ! The example does not mean that there was "punya" made by Lion ! It means there was 'grace' of Saint towards Lion. Grace of Saints and Sages know no boundaries. Even otherwise as you stated still it took 9 more animal forms before that Great Jeeva took human birth. Thus, based on this example, an existence of a possibility of animals capable of incurring sins or virtues does not get established.
I hope you will appreciate my limitation. Being in Satsanga I must state what is true to the best of my knowledge and belief. By the way, I really admire your contributions to all of us ! Believe me, again I am truthful to the best of my ability.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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-Shree Hari-
Namaste!
Picking up on an interesting point made by Sushil Jain. I do not have a fixed
belief on the path of animals, but questions in my mind may have been addressed
by this story:
An Australian sheep farmer came on TV and told of an experience he had!
Dingoes, (wild dogs) were causing him bother on his property, taking out lambs.
So he always carried a rifle whenever he went out on his property.
This particular time as he approached a watering hole, he saw a pack of dingoes,
they ran off straight away as soon as they sensed him.
But two did not, one was moving slowly, while the other was fussing about. He
shot them both, on inspecting the bodies, found one to be very old, completely
blind,(eyes badly diseased), the other a perfectly fit looking young dingo. The
farmer then realized that the young one was a carer for the old dog.(Cost his
life).
In passing the farmer was so moved and saddened, it turned his perspective
around altogether!
If one watches animals carefully, then one can see some amazing moments.
Om... Shanti...
Mike (k).
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Using imperfect senses to interpret divine text will result in inaccurate conclusion. Answers are there for every question if we have patience and intelligence to read the gita.
krishna says "patram puspam falam jalam...." Meaning one can offer a leaf, flower, fruit and water to him and he will accept it. He specifically mentions what he will accept as prasad and since we shud always eat food offered to him. We shud eat what he mentions, there is no mention of killing or eating animal. People have tendency of justifying what they feel is correct not what is absolute truth.
As I understand, Bhagwatam goes one step further regarding denouncing meat eating. One can only understand scriptures if one surrenders to krishna. " Surv dharam prati jayante maam ekum shranam....l
Shashi Raina
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Relative dharma which is product of maya changes with time, place and people. Vyasji gives example of hurting others as eternal dharma. But in the same email, he also mentions about sex as sin unless it is with legitimate spouse and made with the object of child birth. He is showing that as eternal sanatan dharma. He is confusing others.
Relative dharma is performed at the level of body. We accept ourselves as body. We have different types of attachment to inert matter. Some people are in complete ignorance whereas others have some glimpse of eternal nature. Our body is product of the three modes of nature and it acts according to the dominance of the three modes. Based on our level of advancement and also on the type of body, the relative dharma changes.
In Vedic society itself, many rules were based on dominances of the three modes of nature. Brahmanas who are predominantly sattvik had different rules than ksatriyas, vaishya and sudras. I am surprised how Vyasji can say that relative dharma is not dependent on the quality of people.
The relative dharma is also dependent on time. Vedic literatures divide times into Sat yug, Treta yug, Dvapar Yug and Kali yug. The rules completely change for Kali yug. Bhagavatam and RamCharitManas are clear that in Kali yug we cannot do deep meditation for long time, tapasya, yajna etc. In Kali yuga, there is only the name of Hari or Ram. By chanting, singing or hearing the names of Ram, we can attain the same results which were received by people of other yugas by doing tapasya, yajna etc.
Padma Purana makes following very nice statement about dos and donts:
Smartavyah satatam visnur
Vismartavyo na jatucit
Sarve vidhi nisedhah syur
Etayor eva kinkarah
Vishnu should always be remembered and never forgotten at any moment. All the rules (actions to be performed) and prohibitions (actions not to be performed) should be the servants of these two principles. (Padma Purana)
Vyasji makes wrong assumption when he thinks that all people are like him and they can follow the rules which he is following. Out of 84 lakhs forms of living entities, I think 4 lakhs are human. There are variety of humans. Based on their nature, they have to follow different rules. Those dos and donts should be decided by above sloka from Padma Purana. Ultimately, we should increase our remembrance of Ram. We cannot remember Ram 24 hours immediately. We need to gradually increase this by understanding our nature.
SB 1.11.19 - At the same time, many hundreds of well-known prostitutes began to proceed on various vehicles. They were all very eager to meet the Lord, and their beautiful faces were decorated with dazzling earrings, which enhanced the beauty of their foreheads.
When Krishna entered Dvaraka, the prostitutes came to meet Him. Everyone was pure in Dvaraka. How can a impure person become resident of Dvaraka? What were prostitutes doing there? Most probably, there were men who will go to those prostitutes and enjoy sex with them. In Dvaraka, there were people with different modes of natures and they acted accordingly. Still, they were pure devotees and they were so advanced that they could see Krishna face to face.
In Ramayan Ayodhyakand, Nishad was served meat by Bharadvaj Rishi. Nishads are meat eaters and even though the king of Nishads was pure devotee, still he ate meat.
Garuda, who is one of the greatest devotees, eats snakes. Kaliya tried to fight Garuda and he had to retreat to Yamuna to protect himself.
After Vali's death, Sugreeva was enjoying Vali's wife. Sugreeva was enjoying his senses. Vibhishana enjoyed Mandodari who is considered as one of the most chaste women. Sugreeva and Vibhishan are very dear to Ram and are pure devotees.
Now, examples from this world:
1) Do you know what is down syndrome? The person born with down syndrome is human being. Still, will he incur karma for his actions? Not for all of their actions. Such person is governed by his nature and his mind is not developed enough to decide what is right or wrong. Such person even if commits wrong action may not incur karma for it. Rules for such people change.
2) Animals don't incur karma. In Kali yug, many humans are like animals and they don't have control over themselves. Rules for them will change.
For example, a person who is pedophile (child molestor), rapist or serial killer. These people don't have control over their mind. Even after they are punished, they cannot stop doing rape, child molestation etc.
Will Vyasji tell such people to have sex only for child with their wife? Rule for such people will be not to do rape or child molestation. If they control themselves with their wife or prostitutes, then Krishna will appreciate their effort.
3) I have met many people who don't love their wife or children. For them, the children are burden. They use spirituality as excuse for not taking care of family. Taking care of children is sacrifice. Living with wife especially western wife who is independent is a challenge. There are personality clashes etc. Making marriage work takes lot of patience, tolerance, gratitude etc. It is easy to run away from family. What is instruction to these people? Will you teach them detachment to their family? They are so fallen that they don't have love towards their family. They are so fallen that they cannot spend time or play with their children. I would teach them first to love their family. I would teach them to take care of their family. Be loving and sensitive to your wife. I would teach them to love their children and spend time with them.
I have a friend who would like to read Swami Ramsukhdas books and will listen bhajans etc. He will attend satsangs. But he would not take care of his family. I had to really teach him that Krishna resides in his kids. He should see Krishna in them and it is his duty to serve them. If he does not do that, then all his spiritual efforts will be wasted. Rules or instruction for such people is actually love towards family (not detachment).
My father is not advanced devotee. But I have found always detached towards his kids and his wife. He does not treats my mother properly. I don't know if he ever treated her gently or with loving sensitiveness or ever appreciated her. I don't remember my father ever playing with me. Most Indian dads are like that. They think that their duty is to bring money. After that, their work is done. They need to taught to be good father or good husband. Rules are changing based on their level of advancement.
4) Detachment to family is taught to those who are much more advanced. They are compassionate and loving. They are soft hearted. King Bharat in Srimad Bhagavatam gave shelter to deer and became attached to it. This was due to his compassionate nature. Rule for such people is detachment from family. Even while being detached, they are supposed to take care of family externally.
5) Many men feel attraction to other beautiful women who are not their wife. What is instruction for such men? First instruction is that be loyal to your wife. Control yourself and don't see other women with lust.
Vyasji will teach him not to have sex with his wife. That guy will follow him and after few years end up having sex with another women. Even if he sincerely follows Vyasji recommendation, it is difficult to go against one's own nature. If they go against it then they will end up doing worse things. One has to understand deeply one's own nature and see how can one increase his remembrance of Ram (refer to Padma Purana sloka). If mind will be peaceful by having sex with one's wife and such sex help a person to focus more on Ram, then what is problem! Why such person should act above his level?
My above comments are based on my experience. I have interacted with many spiritual seekers and studied them. One very nice example is Hare Krishna society (Iskcon). Srila Prabhupada, the founder of Iskcon, recommended no sex or advised sex for procreation only. People of Iskcon try to follow very big ideals of doing 16 rounds of Hare Krishna mantra etc. They think of themselves as superior and they feel that they need to save the world. I have interacted with the gurus of Iskcon who will give great lectures and externally they are practicing sanyasa, doing sadhana etc. Later on, I found out that there was rampant child and women abuse in Iskcon. Almost all the children born of Srila Prabhupada disciples were either sexually or physically abused or both. The parents were busy doing service to Krishna and they ignored their child. Most of their current gurus were passive observers of these abuses and did not do anything. Some even support child and sexual abusers who are acting as gurus. One of their gurus physically assaulted and tortured so many young innocent children at Vrindavan Gurukul. I had to campaign against him to get him removed. He was guru in Iskcon for more than 10 years and no one was doing anything. They did not see anything wrong in him. While interacting with them, I realized that they are trying to follow high ideals but they ignore basic instructions. Even among criminals, child and sexual abuse is considered inferior. Even in jails, criminals don't respect child and sexual abusers. I found many of their gurus to be worse than basic human being.
They could not follow basic instruction of Sri Ram -- There is no other sin worse than inflicting suffering on others. They participated in abuse of helpless children and women. While doing these things, they were trying to control their sex desire and trying to follow other lofty ideals. Many of them gave up their wife and family and left them alone and became sanyasi. They inflicted so much suffering to their family. Later on, they ended up having sex with another lady. Many Iskcon followers joined Iskcon with good intention. Most probably they became sannyasi sincerely. But mistake they did was that they did not understand their own level. They tried to follow much more than what they could do. Ultimately, they hurted themselves and hurted others in the process.
This world is not like black and white. There are different shades of grey. There are different kind of people. It is difficult to make any generalization. In this email group which has more than 20,000 members, it is better to discuss general basic philosophy and it is better to stay away from specific rules which are dependent on circumstances.
GAurav Mittal
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PRIOR POSTING
Ram ki kaam (work) hi kaam hai, baaki saari kaam (desire) hai. In other words, only that is the real work which is done for Lord Rama and rest of all is only desire-driven or selfish work or Sin.
--
Paritala Gopi Krishna
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respected friends
yes it is difficult to define sin. have thought about it for a long time, and have concluded. sin is a action for which u feel guilty, that is when u diviate from your own choosen path, and you hurt the other man"s feeling.
Dnkayshap Nath
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Vyas ji
In Jain scriptures, there are innmerous expamples how "Jeev" in animal yoni changed to human form by having a good Bhav/divine thought... Depending on the karma and thoughts, an animal has the power to come back to better human or other forms or go further down to lower forms of life.... Tirthankara Mahavir started his journey upwards when his jeev in Lion form was confronted by a Rishi.....who could see his future and told him about that... He became a tirthankara after taking 9 forms before being born as human being for his final jouney.
Well, this discussion may be endless since it is again a question of what we believe in.
Thanks for sharing the information.
Regards
Sushil Jain
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| Hari Om
I must say that the message of Gauravji Mittal beautifully sums up the topic. Till "Karma" becomes "Akarma" within the meaning of Gitaji "a human only sins even if the deed is apparently "good" ! Every "karma" has sins hidden in it - Says Gitaji. Be it a deed made under SAT or RAJAS or TAMAS gunas all bind you. Every Bondage is ASHUBH ( yajjgyaatva mokshyashe ashubhat- Gita 9:1) ! You get rid of ASHUBH (inauspicious- sin ) only when you "become of God"/ 'become equanimous and dutiful/ ceased to be 'worldly' !! Be it good deed or bad deed both are ashubh (sin) so long as you are in-equanimous/ worldly. Once you are practicing Equanimity even if you slain the entire humanity you don't incur a sin..THIS IS TEACHING OF HOLY GITA !!
One must endeavour therefore to rise above both good and bad and conduct with Equanimity. Till you reach that stage what you do is sin and sin only. It is understandable to hold that physical union with spouse is unavoidable, but when you talk of SIN in this Divine Forum , you must talk with strict reference to reality/ truth .
Reg changing of rules of the sins or virtues with time ( SAY what was sin in Satyuga may not be sin in Kaliyuga) as I clarified, be it getting Sanmukh to Paramatma or practicing Equanimity or doing your DUTYin all the cases the TIME is of no relevance. Had Time been of any relevance …there would not have been any utility today of Scriptures, Vedas, Gita etc written at the beginning of Creation ( Eternal Religion- Sanatan Dharma Refer BG 4:1) ! If hurting some one by mind/speech or body was sin in Satyuga , then that is Sin even today ! Where is the change? Yes! Rituals, social rules, customs, rules etc may change with 'Time' but when a stand is taken that even if a good deed is done without Equanimity then also it is a sin, and one needs to rise above both good and bad then that conclusively proves that TIME is an irrelevant factor in deciding what is sin or virtue !!
As regards animals, let me state that inspite of theirs being a 'bhoga yoni' ( specifically given to them for 'bhoga' - no sins or virtues are incurred by animals ) still they have 'better' sense and 'control' when it comes to 'mating' ! There are 'seasons' of mating for animals...! (They also mostly observe privacy - except a few species, say a dog and a bitch)! Human life form is "Yoga Yoni" ( Yoga means Equanimity/Duty- this form of life is specifically given for Realisation of God- for 'Sanmukhata' with Him). BUT It is only a human being who does not recognise any "season" (hritu) for 'mating' and gets spoilt every now and then- most funnily under the pretexts of 'love'/ 'duty as householder' / 'unavoidability'/ 'changed times'/ 'moderation'/ 'natural'/ ' with genuine spouse' etc, etc ! What a degradation ! What a sin ! 'Modern Times' ... Ha !
Animals do not incur any sins, still there are 'seaons' for them ! Why not for humans then ? Hence in the human life also the Divine Laws provide for 'seasons', (standards) viz only for child birth..never for 'bhoga'..? Sadhaks must therefore appreciate the need for abstinence ! Any 'bhoga' is 'sin' in human life... ! Be certain on this !!
There is 'heaven' for pleasures, 'hell' for pains, 'animalhood' for mixture of both pleasures and pains ! But once you are a human... you MUST rise above pleasure and pain... Good and bad ... Sin and virtue... you must practice Equanimity ! You must turn towards God ! You must understand what is 'Duty' ! You must not get swayed by 'sense organs' ! Afterall , we are 'humans', Dear Sadhaks !! There is a difference between 'Yoga Yoni' and 'Bhoga Yoni' !
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
--------------------------------------------- Prasad A ji, you message is not very clear. Per your posting, all actions would most likely fall in the sinful category. Any thing which is intentionaly and knowingly done wrong to others without their knowledge can probably be termed as sin if so considered by the receipient of that act. Apply your own judgement and keep your heart free from any kind of revenge or ill feelings towards any person or living being on this earth be it from any race ,religion,cast,non-believer etc.
Regds,
R.K.Raina ------------------------------------- |
SANATAN DHARMA
Literal meaning of sanatan dharma is dharma which is eternal. Dharma is used as analogous religion or good (pious) value system. Ultimately, dharma means our intrinsic nature. For example, dharma of fire is heat. Vyasdevji gives definition of dharma in the beginning of Srimad Bhagavatam. Gosvami Tulsidasji also writes with same understanding in the begining of RamCharitMahas. Here is description of sanatan dharma:
Our self is sat chid anand. It is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss.
"Gosvami Tulsidasji says, "chetan amala sahaj sukh rashi (consciousness, free of all impurities, and ever blissful). " Dharma is true nature of this eternal self. Therefore, dharma is eternal. But this sanatan dharma starts at the level of eternal self. The sat chid anand nature of self is independent of time, place and matter. BG 2.12 says, "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be."
2) Even though the self is eternal, due to illusion it accepts itself as body. Vyasdevji says in SB 1.1.1 - By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. We are in illusion and seeing distorted reality as real. This illusion is also santana dharma as it is independent of time, place and circumstance.
3) SB 1.2.12 - Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. Vyasdevji describes Krishna as all pervading (Brahman). He resides in everyone's heart as Paramatma. He shows us His sagun form so that we can sing, hear and meditate on His lilas (pastimes or exploits) as Bhagavan. This Absolute aspect of Krishna is sanatan.
BG 2.42 -2.43 - Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this.
SB 1.1.2 - dharma projjhitah kaitavo
Bhagavatam also reject dharma which is done for fruitive actions.
In 1.1.2, Vyasdevji describes 3 qualities of sanatan dharma or the true knowledge:
- It distinguishes reality from illusion. Basically, it is at the level of eternal self and it brings those who are at the level of inert matter to the level of the eternal self.
- It is for the welfare of all. Obviously, the best welfare for all of us is removal of illusion or ignorance.
- It uproots the threefold miseries. Suffering or misery happen when we identify our self with body. But when identification with matter is removed, then there is no suffering.
From absolute perspective, inert matter cannot touch the eternal self. Therefore, dharma described in terms of body is relative. It is sanatan from the perspective of bringing us from illusion to knowledge. Our advancement towards eternity or Krishna is based on our internal consciousness (like equanimity, surrender etc). Actions are aid but ultimately, we need to realize the Truth and understand it.
SB 12.2.41 - What can a person who injures other living beings for the sake of his body know about his own self-interest, since his activities are simply leading him to hell? SB 10.2.22 - A person who is very cruel is regarded as dead even while living, for while he is living or after his death, everyone condemns him. And after the death of a person in the bodily concept of life, he is undoubtedly transferred to the hell known as Andhatama. Difference between relative and sanatan dharma is very nicely described by Sri Ram in Uttarkand of RamCharitManas:
Uttarkand (Doha 40 onwards) - There is no dharma (virtue or right action) like action for welfare of others. There is no other worse sin (wickedness) than inflicting suffering on others. I have declared to you, the verdict of all Vedas and Puranas and this is also known by men of wisdom. They who inflict pain on others even after attaining the human body have to suffer terrible pangs of birth and death. Due to illusion and self desires, they commit various sins and thereby ruin their prospects in the next world. As the God of death (Yamraj), I give them the fruit of their good and evil actions. Realizing this, those who are intelligent worship Me seeing this world as full of suffering. They don't get good or evil results of their actions as they take refuge in Me, the Lord of Devatas, men and sages. Listen, my brother, these numerous good qualities and bad qualities are product of maya. The greatest quality is that one should not see both of them. Seeing good or bad in this world is ignorance.
From perspective of bhakti, this world is all good. From perspective of the eternal self, this world ceases to exist in current form. Bhakta sees Ram (all good) everywhere. This is sanatan dharma. What is born of maya is never eternal? So, how can product of maya be eternal or santana? Gaurav Mittal (message shortened does not relate directly with topic being discussed. Kindly follow group's guidelines in future, Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram) |
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PRIOR POSTING
Dear Sadhakas,
Hare Krishna.
This is in response to a question from a Sadhaka.
Any action performed with a
Demoniac quality, is a Sin.
Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita,
"Dambho darpo bhimanas ca,
Krodhah parusyam eva ca,
Ajnanam cabhijatasya,
Partha sampadam asurim. "
( Gitaji, 16, 4 )
Which means
'Pride, arrogance, conceit,anger,harshness and ignorance, belong to the people of Demoniac Nature. '
Any action,performed with a Divine quality is Holy,(Gitaji 16 ,1 to 3).
Any selfish action is immoral. Any selfless action is moral.
Immoral actions incur Sin.
Animals do not incur sins because they behave, as ordained by the Lord. They have no selfish motive.
Thank You
Hare Krishna
Prasad.A.Iragavarapu, M.D
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hare krishna u have explained very well about sins..
krishna in form of u he made me to know about sins
Sruthi nandina
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Hari Om
Indeed so much is available in Scriptures, Voices of Saints and Sages and in our direct experiences regarding the 'sin'! Key is however: Vimukhata from Him, Duty and Equanimity ! The desires and intentions (bhavas) again are outputs of 'sanmukhata' to world / 'vimukhata' from God ! Message of Sadhak Madanji Kaura rightly therefore stresses on Turning towards Him and practicing Equanimity.
Swamiji once said there is One and half (1.5) sin out of which 1 is 'vimukhata' from Paramatma (tilt towards the World; facing away from Him) . Similarly virtue (punya ) is 1.5 out of which 1 is 'sanmukhata'. (Turning towards Him and turning away from world)! Desires are stated to be root cause of sin in Gita. Those desires in fact arise because of tilt towards world (vimukhata from Him)! Hence first and important step - Turn towards God immediately. Be of God's !!
Equanimity and Duty - these two things are like "Raambaan" cures for sins. If one does his duty ( Duty is what you CAN DO and what you SHOULD DO ) and practices Equanimity ,he shall not incur sin - this is an established principle taught by Gitaji and Swamiji ! Equanimity and Duty are also called 'Dharma' . Hence God is stated to be established in Equanimity and Duty ! Turning towards Him thus is never failing single point solution.
SANMUKH HOY JEEVA MOHI JAB HI ! KOTI JANAM AGH NAASHAHI TAB HI !!
(When Jeeva turns towards Me, the sins of millions of life times get destroyed then)
Refer also: BG 9:30 , so correctly quoted by Brother Mike.
More so because, It is also a fact that every karma done by a Jeeva is a sin unless when you are equanimous. Because the result of every sin is "ashubh" ( inauspicious). Now even if you do a good deed, so long you are not equanimous,( doing it for selfish reasons / with bias) that good deed will produce a "bondage" for you (in the form of favourable circumstances). Every Bondage is "ashubh" ! Hence good deed is sin because 1. You were worldly ( vimukhata from Paramatma) 2 You were in-equanimous ( Act done with bias; for selfish reasons, expecting returns say heaven, prosperity etc, again 'worldly' ) !
"Intention/ Bhava" of Karta most certainly is crux/ yardstick for determining a sin. Once you turn towards Paramatma the "bhavas" become purer and purer ! So long as you provide importance to world and are in-equanimous ( in other words- vimukh from Him) , your bhavas/intention behind the deed ( however good or great that deed may be ; and for that purpose however ghastly or evil that deed may be) can not be said to "equanimous/shubh" ! Hence the karma is a sin. Thus every karma (irrespective of good or bad ) is sin - unless the 'Karma' is done with 'Yoga' - Equanimity ! Unless the 'Karma' has become 'Akarma' !!
Sushilji ! There is a sound logic given by Scriptures and Saints ( particularly by Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) behind the conclusion : Animals do not sin. They are life forms made for sufferring/enjoying deeds done in human form of life. They are 'bhog' yonis. The human life is 'Yog Yoni'. (Equanimity)/ 'Karma Yoni' ( Duty) ! I will go one step further: The very Question of incurring sin or virtue arises ONLY in "Karma Yoni" ( Karma - Duty/Yoga) viz human life. Such a Q does not arise in any other form of life including even Demi Gods, ghosts, animals, pisaachas, pittars, etc. Sin is dereliction of Duty. ( Kartvya-chyut ta) The Q of Duty arises in human life only. (Afterall, human form of life is the junction station- from where ONLY you can go to heaven/hell/God/animalhood - everywhere else ) If we consider that animals sin then where will be the end of cycle ? Will they ever be able of move up ? Hence Scriptures are certain that animals do not incur sin.
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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Shree Hari. Ram Ram.
Vedic knowledge can give answers from different perspective and therefore, knowledge is vast and can be sometimes confusing. Yes, there is sin and many people have given many definitions of sin.
Bhagavad Gita goes one step forward on "SIN". I will use term "Paap" which is sanskrit word for SIN.
It gives more importance to internal consciousness. Those people whose internal consciousness is divine, don't incur any Paap.
In true sense, external activity results from inert matter. Our self is beyond inert matter and inert matter cannot touch our true self.
Paap etc. are for those who identify themselves with body. But for those who see themselves as true spiritual self and not as body, there is no Paap.
There are many symptoms of this state. More we advance towards this state more we become free from Paao and also, piety (punya). Bhagavat Gita does not even consider punya (opposite of paap) as best. The best conditions is when one goes beyond paap and punya.
Here are some symptoms:
-- Understand that I am not this body. My true self is different from inert matter and truly act on this platform.
-- I am Bhagavan's and Bhagavan is mine. (Bhagavan - sanskrit term for God)
-- Detachment from inert matter (obviously, since I am not product of matter and beyond matter, I won't be attached to inert matter.)
-- Doing service with understanding that God (Bhagavan) is in everyone and everyone is representative of God. Such person will love everyone and serve everyone.
-- Being internally happy from within and being unaffected by external environment (equanimity)
-- and so on.
Please read Bhagavad Gita carefully.
Gita Talk Moderators --- Is there English Sadhak Sanjivini online?
Ram Ram,
Gaurav Mittal
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Sin ............!
paapa and punya ..............................ah !
Consciousness as intelligence playing the game of Hide and seek ....................
Consciousness , the source of being, ever eclipsed by its own will and joy ..................!!
thought, word and deed ............ the drama and play ......................
when thoughts , words, or deeds .................. add to the eclipsing of the source, spreading fear, guilt and pain in the self ....
paapa..............................sin !!!!
when thoughts , words, or deeds .................. dance in the fray of de- eclipsing ,liberating the being from fear, guilt, pain and delusion ....
Punya ............................!!!!
and friends ,
Consciousness chooses to play intelligence at expanding levels of the self only in humans .............. the animal Consciousness has never risen to the levels of seeking beyond the natural play of the senses ...............
hence , no sin , nor virtue in the animal world ...........
in their world, Nature, Prakriti, dances in full freedom ...... and smiles at its play
and then,for reasons beyond knowing,
in the scale of evolution, Prakriti, outdoes its own behests ,,,,,,,,,,
chooses to become 'sentient' with seeming freedom of choice ....
and the drama of Punya and Paapa unfolds for the self ..................
for seekers true ............. the Injunction of Injunctions shall ever be ......
" Do unto others as ye shall have others do unto you "
aum
narinder bhandari
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Dear Sadaks,
Dharma Vyajar was born in a slaughterer family killing of goat/sheep. But it is said in script Mahabarath, that he was saint. Rishi Konkaner learnt some matters from him. Muslims marries many wives, but Hindi Dharma says it is not correct. A sin committed by a learned Bhramin is 10 fold punishable for the same commited by a Chandala (Schedule caste person). Intellect is Guru to tell what is Sin and Not. May be for that SIN is termed as:- S=Something. I=Intelect. N=Negative. SOMETHING INTELLECTUALLY NEGATIVE.
B.Sathyanarayan
----------------------------------------------------
In Ramcharitmanas, it is mentioned that there is no other punya (piety) than acting for the welfare of others. There is no other sin worse than inflicting suffering on others.
SB 12.2.41 - What can a person who injures other living beings for the sake of his body know about his own self-interest, since his activities are simply leading him to hell?
SB 10.2.22 - A person who is very cruel is regarded as dead even while living, for while he is living or after his death, everyone condemns him. And after the death of a person in the bodily concept of life, he is undoubtedly transferred to the hell known as Andhatama.
This is very clear. We should be good to others and don't hurt others. Basically, do what you want others to do. If you will hurt others, then you will do down to lower planetary systems called narak or hell. That can be one definition of sin. This is very complicated topic. Ultimately, one should rise above both good and bad and situate oneself beyond matter.
It is very interesting that Tulsidasji mentions good and bad in the beginning of Balkand. Later on, he says that the people with knowledge ultimately don't see anything good or bad. For them, everything is all good. But I have described them to you so that you can be like Swan. Just like swan accepts milk and rejects the water, similarly devotees accept goodness and reject bad things. Therefore, he described them so that we can discriminate.
If you are pure hearted without duplicity, then ultimately you will do good. Even if something bad happens with your good intentions, it will be ok. From absolute perspective, it does not matter. You have done tons of piety in previous life and tons of sins in previous life. Still, you are in the cycle of this world. So, ultimately you have to rise beyond both of them.
Q Loving your wife is not a SIN, but forcibly loving her against her will is a SIN?
Based on above definition, loving wife is not a sin. Actually, you are supposed to love everyone.
Taking meaning of word love as sex, for most of us having moderate sex with wife is not sin. But those who really want to elevate their consciousness higher and lead life fully dedicated to yog, they give up propensity to enjoy from inert matter. Therefore, they have sex with purpose i.e to get a child.
But most of us are not at such a high level. For us, sex with wife is not SIN. I am writing another email which discusses Vyasji's comment.
Q I think the definition of SIN changes with time. In some cases, whatever was SIN a century ago is not a SIN today...
Yes. Completely changes. Those who say "NO" really don't know the truth.
I am writing another email which shows this. How definition of "SIN" has changed?
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dear sadhaks
When I take a decision to do an action, a work, a job, and at that time if I feel that this action is not correct, if my inner me tells me that it is wrong, if I get a shivering or fear of doing it, definitely, no need to think again that it is an action of SIN. If my inner spirit tells me (The AnAhata) that what I am telling is untruth, what I am doing is wrong, what I am doing is a Sin, then, definitely it is a sin.
This is what I understood about Sin. If anybody is able to give more light, happily welcome.
The telling that what century ago was considered to be a Sin, today is not considered to be a sin, does not seems to be correct. It is only an interpretation given by the doer to suit his taste. This is what I understand.
Best wishes
vijayan
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PRIOR POSTING
Shree Hari
Ram Ram!
Dear Gee Waman, thank you for a good question!
Some excellent responses have already been posted! Based on Swamiji Maharaj's views on the subject and what Gitaji says: It is not a particular action which is sin but it is the the motivation behind the action which is the determinator. Casually speaking, the robber uses a knife on a person to injure and rob him and a doctor uses the knife on the patient to cut the diseased or affected area, the physical action is the same, we classify action by the robber as a sin and the for the doctor we call it as a noble act.
Interestingly, Arjuna asked the question in Gita (3-36):
By what a man is compelled by, to commit sin, as if driven by force, even against his will, O Varshneya (Krishna)?
Blessed Lord said:
Lord Krishna answers in Gita (3-37),
It is desire, which turns into anger, born of mode of passion (Rajas), ever insatiable and most sinful. Know this to be the foe here on earth.
Also in Gita (18-17), the Lord says:
He whose mind is free from the sense of doer-ship, and reason is not tainted by worldly objects and activities, does not really slay, even having slaughtered all these creatures, nor is bound by sin.
Now, how the actions should be done, Lord says ion Gita (3-09)
Man is bound by his own action except when it is performed for the sake of sacrifice. Therefore, Arjuna, perform actions as a duty, free from attachment; for the sake of sacrifice alone
Another place, Lord declares in Gita (2-38):
Treating alike, pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and defeat, get ready for the fight, then; fighting (doing your ordained duty) thus you will not incur sin.
Ram Ram!
Humble regards,
Madan Kaura
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It is interesting to note very often that standard answer to the question - "Do animals commit SINS?"
is NO.... It appears to be not true.... It is only an asumption we make again and again for our convenience..... It must be examined and understood with the following in view:
How do we know what an animal is going through in his mind?
We all know animal fight for mates, fight for food, very cleverly plan for their prey, build homes, protect each other, fight each other for power, communicate with each other, have families, have head of family, have rules of running their groups, they love and form relationships even with human beings, for survival, animals find their own innovative ways, they fight with some, love others, etc. etc. ..... yes they may have some limitations because of their different designs.....but they do have many better features than human beings....
They may be committing SINS and are doing many things good..... We have many things to learn from them...
But this question is highly irrelevant.... I must be concerned about me and what I do. And not think about what others (including animals) think or do?........
Sushil Jain
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Imo sin is every arrogant thought that one has that separates oneself from God,
(in whom there is no separation) and the other (with whom we recreate
separation).
How could any of us know what we'd do in any possible situation except by being
in that situation.
All the rest of it is dogma-inspired madness that has killed/and kills
more humans than any plague every visited...
~Anna
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PRIOR POSTING
Hari Om
Q: How SIN is defined?
Ans: Every dereliction of 'Duty' is a sin . Basic sin is not facing Paramatma ( Vimukhata) . SIN is doing/wishing/ understanding that with reference to others; which we dont want some one doing/wishing/understanding with reference to us.
Specifically: Abortion, Slaughtering of Cows, Theft of Gold, Consumption of Alcohol, Adultery with Guru's wife are stated to be 'great sins'. (Mahapaaps). Hurting others by mind/speech/body is always a SIN. In fact, every Karma which we do is sin unless we are 'equanimous' within the meaning of Scriptures !
Hence turning towards Paramatma and conducting equanimously is the only way to stop an otherwise continuous incurring of sins in human life.
Q: Who can define SIN?
Ans: Scriptures, Saints and Sages and one's own Antaratma (Conscience)
Q Do animals commit SINS?
Ans: No ! They have no 'Duty' to perform and hence Q of dereliction of 'Duty' does not arise. Theirs is 'bhog' yoni. All actions by them are part of 'bhoga'. Their birth is only for bhoga ! For example, no fresh sin is incurred by lion when it kills others.
Q Loving your wife is not a SIN, but forcibly loving her against her will is aSIN?
Ans: Whether by consent or by non consent, a physical union (making love) is sin UNLESS it with your legitimate spouse; AND unless it is only made with object of child birth.
Thus even if the other party is consenting but the object is not child birth, still it is a sin. Similarly, I dont think that using reasonable persuation, even gentle force, with your legitimate spouse to get his/her consent for making love (physical union) so as to get a child is sin as it is part of 'Duty' of a householder.
Q I think the definition of SIN changes with time. In some cases, whatever was SIN a century ago is not a SIN today...
Ans: 'Duty' does not depend upon Time. Not hurting others is not dependent or governed with reference to Times. The basics of Sin and Virtue are facing away from and facing towards Paramatma ( Vimukhata and Sanmukhta respectively) ! What Time has got to do with the same ? Practice of Equanimity has no corelation with Time. What was sin , say a thousand years ago, the same thing if done today is also sin. Dharma (Duty) is always eternal and never changes with Time. Rituals/Customs change !
Jai Shree Krishna
Vyas N B
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-Shree Hari-
Reflecting upon the format of the question, the answers are already there.
Krishna Samuladra made a very to the point observation! Sin is defined by
religion, and I might add by cultural acceptance, which may well be traced back
to some religious platform. No point in me repeating what was written. The point
made, was what is sinful in one society is not in another, (may even be regarded
as virtuous).
Sushal jain touched on an interesting point. Indeed a point of view I have held
for some time, in my way of expressing, it is evolutionary within ones self, so
in the fullness of time, if one is focused on 'The Divine', then actions one may
have considered OK, become abhorrent to one. A cleansing process takes place.
This can be seen reflected in Bhagavad Gita 9:30 (Oft quoted at this Satsang).
'Even the vilest sinner worships Me with exclusive devotion he should be
considered a saint, for he has rightly resolved to be My devotee.'
I noticed Swamiji commented on how this can come about, also talks about
changing ones egoism. Changing is a dynamic process, until one has changed!
Animals such as pack animals seem to follow certain rules, and rogues are chased
out. An interesting point is humanity often follow pack mentality, and they
often persecute saints, and the pure!
Om...... Shanti.....
Mike (K).
-----------------------------------------------------
Animals do not have the power of discrimination. Therefore they do not sin. But the very fact that they have taken birth as an animal form of life means that they are suffering for their past sins. Rape is a sin even with one's own wife.
Hari Shanker Deo
--------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Man is capable of understanding the whole universe. But he does not, due to his lack of interests on knowing it from Upanashids. For instance:- Jada Bharat was born as deer, but had the knowledge of his earlier birth. Gajendra Elephant had knowledge on earlier birth instinct. That is why in danger with crocdile the elephant called GOD as Aadhi Moolam (ONE that has NO end or begining). In tulasi Ramayan, a prostitute rears a parrot bird. That calls Rama Rama and dies and gets elevated. Nala & Maniguba two Gandhervas as TREES got elevated when Sri Krishna pulled them apart. In Bible Chirst curses a tree and it goes to ashes for not yielding fruits. When Chirst can understand a tree, why not a man. A snake and Elephant got elevated in Kalahasti. Trees, animals, ants, plants, birds get salvation. So the man has to think, in understanding them. Man is worst of all animals and plants, because he causes dangers or kills them, instead of living with them
B.Sathyanarayan
---------------------------------------------------------
Any act done with the help of body, mind or intellect, which may harm others or
self in any manner is sin in my view."mahendra c" --------------------------------------------------You are correct there is nothing as SIN universally acceptable and applicable at all times and all societies and under all circumstances.
What a person thinks as Sin, he is unlikely to commit as sin. What most people believes as Sin, is therefore generally accepted as Sin. At some point, some people argues and demonstrate that what is considered a situation can in fact be socially desirable. At some point, such actions gets accepted as not Sin.
Better is not to worry about Sin in general or those committed by others, but look at one's own action to determine what Sin one need not commit.
Basudeb Sen
------------------------------------------------------------
Namaste,
The following statement could be misleading:
"DO NOT WASTE the gift from THE DIVINE to seek THE DIVINE."
Kindly, read it as,
"DO NOT WASTE the gift from THE DIVINE by not utilizing it to seek THE DIVINE."
Respects.
Naga Narayana
--------------------------------------------------------
PRIOR POSTING
Shree Hari
Ram Ram
You have asked -
1) How can sin be defined? That which you do not wish for yourself, to do to others is sin.
2) Who can define sin? You yourself can define sin.
3) Do animals commit sin? Question is unrelated. Man is incapable of understanding animal's relations.
4) Loving your wife is not a SIN, but forcibly loving her against her will is it a SIN? Wife is not an object of pleasure for the husband. She is a life partner in fulfilling dharma. loving her against her will is considered brute force. Any kind of brute force is considered a sin.
5) whatever was SIN a century ago is not a SIN today...definition changes with time. Without giving specific example, your statement appears to be incomplete. Whatever changes with time is not in essence real, is not true. Truth is eternal and unchanging with time.
So be it,
Vineet Sarvottam
---------------------------------------------------------
The best reply to this Q is given by Ved vyasji is:
whatever you dont like to be done to your self,
Dont do it to others
Thanx
Raja Gurdassani
---------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sadaks,
Sin that which the conscience (Antherathuma) says is wrong. Forcing any thing or any living thing is SIN. Sin is also defined as that which done against Sastras. Sin is also said to be when One refrains from his duty. Sin changed its impact in Threta Yug from Sathya Yug and reduced impact in Kali yug. But certain Sins like beating parents, killing human, and wearing saffrin robes as disguise as a swamiji remains same. In the book Gnaneswari the interpertaion meaning of Geetha written by great saint Gnaneswari, it says , staring a person also is Sin since the other person feels frightened. Vast Subject.
B.Sathyanarayan
-----------------------------------------------------------
What is SIN? One's apparent behavior that violates one's inherent nature is THE
ONLY SIN which may manifest variantly in accordance with the variant combination
of nature and behavior as such.
Why is this sin? Because, this is the root cause for all the desires and fears
trapped in a person.
Who can define SIN? The only one who is authorised to define one's sin is
ONESELF as both behavior and nature belongs to the person.
How such violations become sin? Actually, the behavioral violation of one's
nature (VarNa Sankara) is the result of the sin. The desires and fears are the
root causes for the violation. The desire is one which keeps generating a notion
of difficiency of certain things that are notionally dear to the person. When
one's nature cannot cater to the innate demands, the behavior tries to
compensate it distorting one's nature within. On the other hand, the comfort
developed with the nature within, generates a prepetual notion of loosing the
same when anything is borrowed from the outside world as it remains alien and
anknown to one's experience. Then, the nature tries to confine one's behavior
distorting the effort as well as its intent. As a result, fissures are generated
within the person that bothers the individual.
What is responsible for the sins? The only one who is responsible for the sins
is its preceptor and perceiver - one who generates as well as acknowledges - the
individual. It is the ignorance harbored within that tears the person in terms
of individual difficiencies. It is the inertia harnessed by the individual which
threatens the individual in terms of environmental uncertainties.
Do animals commit SINS? Anything that harbors desire is bound to be afraid and
hence committed to the sin as such. The very birth is a proof for the sin
within. That is why saints such as Swamiji keep warning us, when you have human
birth, when you have faculties to appreciate these facts in clarity, ... DO NOT
WASTE the gift from THE DIVINE to seek THE DIVINE.
Iha chedavedeetatha satyamasti, na chedihaavedeenmahatee vinashTih |
Therefore, seek the awareness of The Truth TRUTHFULLY - NOW and HERE. The whip
is whipping me all around from quite some time … but, the ignorance and inertia
entertained within since god knows when have created so many layers not to feel
the intensity as I should ... Therefore, I insist to myself to get rid of the
ignorance and inertia that are the root causes for ALL THE SINS categorically,
HiraNmayena paatrena satyasyaapihitam mukham |
The individual that I am, am clad with the glistening identities to which all my
vision is glued in awe in spite of knowing how they are masking The Truth that
is inherent beneath.
Tattvam pooshannapaavriNu satyadharmaaya drishTaye ||
I truthful seeker of The Truth. O Self! Please help me remove these masks of my
identities altogether to reveal yourself in me as myself. O Truth! Nourish my
strength to tear down all these glistening garments of 'mine' once for all to
seek You as such.
I pray Devi Chamundeshwari (THE TRUTH) to destroy the sin that is consuming me
from within, the apparently invincible duo - Mahishasura (the ego) who keeps
churning out the Raktabeejaasura (the desires and fears) who keeps the former
intact - at once to releive this sinner within.
Regards.
Naga Narayana.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shakespeare said nothing is good or bad only thinking makes it so. Only human beings have the power of discrimination or vivek, that is the power of differentiating between right and wrong. When we are doing something wrong our conscience pricks us. When we go against our conscience, we commit sin. So we do not have to depend upon man made laws for that.
Hari Shanker Deo
-------------------------------------------------------------
Such questions are indicative of quest for learning.....and not SIN
These dissolve or disappear as we understand the wisdom of life better....
All that we require is some patience and contineous effort in this direction...
Understanding is the key......
with better understanding level of conciousness change...giving clarity and happiness...
Generally.....SIN means bad or a bad act.....
At another level.....Anything you do with awareness is good and anything you do without awareness
(state of unconsciousness) is SIN....
At another level........anything that gives you long lasting happiness followed by more happiness is good
anything that gives you short/temp happiness followed by unhapiness, guilt, hatred, etc....is SIN...
At another level.....to love is good, to hate is SIN....
No, with time the definitions do not change.....the change is due to one's level of consciousness....
your reference points.......
One answer which you could use and put to test......any time....
is anything which gives you happiness and make others happy too (without harming anyone) is NOT SIN. All else is SIN...
You have to experience the answer.....It will come from within you.... Answers are not outside...
Others is of fascilitate...the process.......best wishes...
Sushil Jain
------------------------------------------------------
Paropa karaya punyaya, papaya para peedanam.Helping others is a virtue and torturing others with yours words and deeds is a vice
Badri Narayana Miriyala
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
While writing a book on the origins, distant and recent past of VisishtaAdvaita, I realized we use SIN as a translate of Paapa and THAT IT IS WRONG. Ispent quite a time on distinguishing these two concepts and now I KNOW that Sinis not the same as Paapa. I will be short. the interested may contact mepersonally or thru this group. They are welcome.There is an ocean of difference between Dharma (Sanaatana) and religion, thoughin NOrth INdia Dharma is erroneously used for Religion. Bharata Varsha never hada religion. It was Dharma that prevailed in Bharata Varsha and Bharata Varshaextended much beyond the political borders prescribed now. Per my understanding, the basic differencebetween Dharma and Religion is Dharma wants you to question and know or learn.Religion wants you to believe without any question. If a fairly powerful mangets a fancy into the mind and tells others that God has told him this or that,you obey or else yu will not be there to disobey. That is religion. See thedifference.SIN is religion specific. That is what is sin in one religion is not so inanother. Eating pork or eating any animal that has not been killed a sper theprescribed ritual (Kosher or Halaal) might be a sin in two of the Semiticreligions but a Christian is not shunted to Hell for having a Bacon sandwich forbreakfast. Sin, thus is a purely human prescription and has nothing to do withGod, the Parama Atma.PAAPA is a Dharmaic concept. Paapa is causing needless inconvenience to fellowbeings. Hunting and killing an animal to consume its meat to fill in the stomachand survive for the day was an inconvenienc to the deer; but it was essentialfor the hunter. It does not come under needless category. It is not PAAPa.However, as I like capsicum flavor consuming large quatities of that fruit is aneedless inconvenience to the fellow beings capsicum as well as fello consumers.Driving on the wrong side of the road may not be a sin in any religion but is isPaapa as it causes needless inconvenience to several. Jumping a quee is not sinbut Paapa.In short Paapa is an universally applicable concept and Sin is produced by themyths that go under the name religion.BE SURE TO TELL YOUR FRIEND THAT WHAT WE HAVE AND HAD IS DHARMA OR ANTHOLOGY OFREALIZATIONS AND NOT RELIGION WHICH IS AMALGAMATION OF CLAIMED REVELATIONS.AVOID USE OF HINDU ism USE ONLY SANAATANA DHARMA INSTEAD.Krishna Samudrala-----------------------------------------
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